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Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees

Second Video of Shooting of Walter Scott Murder Released; Feidin Santana Talks about his Filming Police; Tornadoes Have Swept Across U.S. States; Mike Rowe Talks about His Bull Fighting Experience; Shooting in Census Bureau. Aired 8-9p ET

Aired April 09, 2015 - 20:00   ET


[20:00:14] ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: Hey, good evening, thanks for joining us. A lot happening tonight.

Tonight, a second video in the killing of Walter Scott. And a conversation with young man who made the first one and likely changed the course of justice. Feidin Santana is his name on what he was feeling as he capture the barbaric of the police officer shooting a suspect again and again and again with the man's back turned in the entire time.


FEIDIN SANTANA, SHOT THE VIDEO: Honestly, I wasn't scared. I didn't fear anything. Just, you know, there was something that I never imagined that would have happened. And maybe that was the reason why I didn't -- why I wasn't scared of this.


COOPER: He says he wasn't scared then. He is concerned for his safety now. And we will talk about that. We will have much more of our conversation shortly. That and his reaction to video from immediately before, dash cam video from North Charleston police officer Michael Slager's patrol car showing the traffic stop that led to the chase that ended in what Feidin Santana recorded, the shooting, the handcuffing that follows then officer Slager dropping something, possibly a taser by the victim's side.

Also, Slager, as you know, has been fired. That happened yesterday. He is now in jail on murder charges. Late today, the South Carolina state law enforcement division or SLED released the dash cam video. Now, we have subtitled portions of so you can get a better sense of what was unfolding. Take a look.


OFFICER MICHAEL SLAGER, NORTH CHARLESTON POLICE: Can I see your license, registration and insurance card, sir?

WALTER SCOTT, SHOT & KILLED BY POLICE: Me and my neighbor --

SLAGER: OK. Let's start with your license.

SCOTT: I got my license.

SLAGER: OK, let's start with your license. The reason for the stop is because your third brake light is out.



SCOTT: I don't (INAUDIBLE) because I just bought this car from my neighbor and I was planning on doing that Monday (INAUDIBLE).

SLAGER: You have the insurance on the car?

SCOTT: no, I don't have insurance on the car, my neighbor does.

SLAGER: Well, if you don't have insurance on your car and you bought it, you have to have insurance.

SCOTT: I haven't bought it yet. I'm saying I've got to do that Monday.

SLAGER: But you bought it?

SCOTT: He let me drive the car.


SCOTT: Because my care is down (INAUDIBLE).

SLAGER: OK. Let me have your driver's license. You have any paperwork in the glove box?

SCOTT: No, sir.

SLAGER: No registration in there, no insurance?

SCOTT: No, he has all the stuff.

SLAGER: Why is it? OK. So, you are buying this car?

SCOTT: Yes, sir.

SLAGER: Did you already buy it?

SCOTT: No, not yet. I am about to buy it Monday.

SLAGER: Just a minute ago, you said you bought it and you are changing everything over on Monday.

SCOTT: I'm sorry about that (INAUDIBLE).

SLAGER: All right. I'll be right back with you.

SLAGER: Have a seat in the car.

(END VIDEOTAPE) COOPER: So Mr. Scott is obviously running. Now, we're showing the rest of the video separately without subtitles because we're not sure what exactly is being said. However, (INAUDIBLE) Officer Slager seems to be out of the vehicle and appears to be saying, taser, taser, taser that about 25 seconds later, get on the ground. Take a look and listen. You can decide for yourself.


SLAGER: Get on the ground! Get on the ground. Get on the ground.


[20:05:14] COOPER: Now the video does not show the actual shooting, nor does it show the scuffle or struggle or altercation that immediately proceeded the gunfire. That said, it does give us a window on the incident tonight that we did not have until today.

Let's get the panel's take on it. Joining us, CNN legal analyst and criminal defense attorney Mark Geragos, also former NYPD detective Harry Houck and "New York Times" columnist Charles Blow.

Harry, does that video tell you anything? Did that change anything?

HARRY HOUCK, FORMER NYPD DETECTIVE: It doesn't change anything as far as the shooting is concerned. You know, the officer - it looks like the typical stop. You know, the officer was courteous, asked him for his information and asked him some questions, apparently something wrong with the car or insurance or registration. And the officer is going back to the vehicle and looks like he was probably going to run him for warrants. And I think this is why the gentleman had got out of the vehicle and ran because I believe he owes $18,000.

COOPER: There is child support payments. There's another person in the vehicle. That person did not run. They remain in the vehicle.

Mark, what about what you're seeing? I mean, you've been saying all along that this is evidence of broader police misconduct. This is just, you know, one video that we happen to have, there are larger issues here. The traffic stop itself before Mr. Scott started running seems fairly benign, no?

MARK GERAGOS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Yes, of course it is. Because it's doing nothing but rousing a guy. You see a black guy in a Mercedes, so pull him over. So concoct this idea that there's a brake light, a third brake light violation so you can pull him over and rouse him and see what you can get.

It's a pretext stop. That's the term that we use in the law and that people wonder why people in these communities that are on the receiving end have no respect for law enforcement. This is precisely why.

I will tell you something. If not for the other video that showed what actually happened, the police department's releasing of this video would have fed into everybody's narrative that, oh my God, the officer was chasing after somebody who was dangerous and left for and fled, blah, blah, blah. If you didn't have the video that you're showing on the screen right now, this shooting would have been found to have been within policy. He would not be in custody today. And we wouldn't be covering this.

COOPER: Well, I mean, Mark, there is forensic evidence though. I'm not saying the video doesn't make all the difference in the world, frankly. But, you know, I talked to the attorney for the family yesterday who said, look, there is forensic evidence. There would have been forensic evidence of this man being shot multiple times in the back. Maybe been a more difficult case, but I don't know you can say blanketly (ph).

GERAGOS: No, because what would have happened, Anderson. I've had this time and time again. Even when the police shoot somebody in the back, they always concoct the idea that the person was turning, that they were looking.

HOUCK: How can you say?

GERAGOS: I saw something --

HOUCK: How could you say it could happen?

COOPER: Just hold on. Let him finish.

GERAGOS: They would say that's exactly what the script is that the cops give, they know what to say and say I saw him reaching for a waistband. They say I saw something shimmer. I saw some kind of photo movement. That's all the terms that are used.

COOPER: I hear your point.

GERAGOS: -- operating procedures.

COOPER: I want to bring in Charles. Charles, does the dash cam video, does it change for you the dynamic at all here?

CHARLES BLOW, COLUMNIST, NEW YORK TIMES: No, because for me there's only one question, right, that Mr. Scott is dead. If he was killed in the most dishonorable way that a person can be killed which is to be shot in the back while you are fleeing from someone. So you can't -- until you can show me something, anybody can show me something, we can say that this man posed a threat to the person who killed him, none of that changes it. And I think that we do - we run a danger of getting deep into the weeds when we start trying to litigate people's lives when they are no longer alive.

That is what the justice system is for. Is to litigate people's lives when they are alive. There are justice remedies for all of the things that Mr. Scott is alleged to have done wrong. And there is not saying he didn't do things wrong, but there are justice remedies and none of them include a death sentence.

COOPER: The other thing about it, Charles, is you know, I've gotten tweets from people saying you shouldn't run from police. There's no, I don't care how much you ran from police. There is no justification for shooting somebody in the back.

BLOW: No justification.

COOPER: And also even just from a, again, I'm not a police officer, but he's not the fastest runner in the world. It's not as if, you know, they could have let him, he had some back child support payments. They could have let him go. They had his license and they had his name.

BLOW: And this is unfortunately, and you can speak more to this than I can. His is unfortunately part of the occupation of being a police officer. Sometimes, unfortunately, suspects will flee and you have -- there's ways to deal with that and they're not to shoot them in the back. And we've seen this, you know. We have seen helicopter footage of people fleeing and how the police officers deal with it. We've seen that before. They don't shoot them in the back, right? The people sometimes resist arrest. That happens in the line of being a police officer. There are ways to deal with that. It is not to kill them on the street.

[20:10:23] HOUCK: Completely different (INAUDIBLE). All right, this gentleman decided he wanted to run, you know. In light of everything that happened, and I don't want to say the wrong thing here, but this gentleman would be alive today if he stayed in the car like the officer had told him. And you know, we look back at the three big incidents that's happened, resisting arrest, alright, what it does is it escalates something to the police officer, all right, and the alleged perpetrator.

Now, like I said, this officer should not have shot that man in the back. I hope he goes to jail for the rest of his life for what he did. It was totally wrong, OK? But we wouldn't be talking right now if he stayed in the car, and issued, get a summons issued to him and was arrested for the warrant.

BLOW: But it pushes us towards making caveats for killers.

HOUCK: No, that's not though.

BLOW: That is a problem. There are ways to deal with fleeing suspects that is not to shoot them.

HOUCK: I am, first of all. I agree with that 100 percent.

BLOW: There is a tremendous amount --

COOPER: Mark, Mark. Go ahead.

GERAGOS: I am taking -- Harry, I think I heard exactly what you said. You just blame the victim. You just said, if he was alive today. He would be alive today if the guy hadn't shot him in the back, Harry.

HOUCK: He would be alive if he had stayed in the car?


COOPER: Mark, I think it's in the same realm you could say --

GERAGOS: Not shot him in the back.

COOPER: You could also say he would be alive today had the police officer not decided to pull him over for a third taillight.

GERAGOS: For a bogus third brake light violation.

COOPER: Right. Which I don't even know what a third brake light violation is.


GERAGOS: Harry. Harry, when he made the turn, I saw -


GERAGOS: Look at the video of the brake light and boy, Harry, was that a dangerous situation. Pull over cars.

Harry, you -- Harry, chill for a second. You and I do not exist in a community where we get roused for brake lights being out. That's not the reality of it. We're not the ones who get rousted like that. So it's easy for you to say, wow, he should have just done this. He should have been -


GERAGOS: This idea he should just get rousted is ridiculous.


COOPER: We got to take a break. But I don't want to leave the conversation with the idea that Harry is saying this shooting was justified. I mean, all along from the beginning, he has said, you know, this officer should go to jail. This man was shot in the back. Regardless of what you think about this.


COOPER: All right, we're going to take a break. Much more to talk about. Coming up next, we're going to hear more from the young man who took the video and we're going to hear as well from Officer's Slager's mom and also bring you up to the minute on other late developments including what the dash cam video shows about the man who is riding in the car with Mr. Scott. We haven't heard much about that. We'll talk about that ahead.


[20:17:36] COOPER: We have been bringing you major new developments in the North Charleston police killing of Walter Scott. The dash cam video a bit later tonight. The mother of the fire officer now facing a murder charge and my conversation with Feidin Santana, without whose video many believe none of this would be happening right now. We spoke just before air time. Here's part one of that special. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: So Feidin, I'm not sure if you had a chance to see the dash camera footage. We've now seen Mr. Scott's leaving the vehicle, running from the police officer. At what point did you first see him and the officer?

SANTANA: I saw right after the first cruiser and they went inside. I was in the parking lot. I was (INAUDIBLE) witnessing everything.

COOPER: What's the first thing you saw happen between them?

SANTANA: I went to the scene and Mr. Scott was already on the ground. The cop was on top of him. And he was just taser him, taser Mr. Scott.

COOPER: You could hear the taser?

SANTANA: Yes, yes. I hear the taser. Like I say, I can hear the sound. I didn't know how a taser sound, but knew it was something like electric sound.

COOPER: Just to be clear, was Mr. Scott on the ground being tased? You said the officer was over him?

SANTANA: Yes, yes. He was on the ground. And the officer was taser him.

COOPER: And then Mr. Scott got --

SANTANA: Mr. Scott never tried to fight -- to fight back with the officer or nothing. He just try to get away from him and the cop and the taser.

COOPER: Did you ever see Mr. Scott grabbing the taser? That's what the officer said happened.

SANTANA: No, never seen that.

COOPER: After the shooting, a lot of people probably would have run away. Were you scared? Because you went toward them. You got closer and you were actually saying things.

SANTANA: Yes. I was. At that moment, I honestly wasn't scared. I didn't fear anything. Just, you know, there was something I never imagined that would have happened and maybe that was the reason why I didn't -- why I wasn't scared of this.

[20:20:15] COOPER: When Officer Slager, after shooting Mr. Scott, he then runs back and picks up something. And it's difficult to make out exactly what it is in the video. It could be the taser. It could be something else. Was it clear to you what it was?

SANTANA: No. It wasn't clear at all. As I say, I believe it was the taser.

COOPER: But you're not 100 percent sure. You can't say for sure.

SANTANA: No, I'm not 100 percent sure. No, I'm not 100 percent sure the object he pick up.

COOPER: And then when he dropped something, which seems, whether it's the object he had picked up or not, he dropped something near Mr. Scott's body. Were you able to see what that is for sure?

SANTANA: No. Like I say, what I can think is just the taser. But after capture the part of him dropping an object near the victim. Just saw that video where he shows, the media have possession of it.

COOPER: And Feidin, I know you just met Walter Scott's mom, Judy. She's a remarkable lady. I talked to her yesterday. I was visiting with her in North Charleston last night and I asked her about you. And I want to play for our viewers and for you what she said about you.

What do you think of the person who came forward with this video?

JUDY SCOTT, WALTER SCOTT'S MOTHER: He was there. God planned that. He's the ram in the Bush. I truly believe that.

COOPER: Because some people would have been scared and run away. He not only stayed, he approached the police officers to get closer and closer video. Have you been able to talk to him? Have you thanked him?


COOPER: What would you want to say to him?

J. SCOTT: I would want to thank him for what he did.

COOPER: Feidin, what was it like to meet her this evening?

SANTANA: They didn't know what was going to happen when I met with them. But as soon as I went in there, you know, I just overrun by my emotions, you know, and I just started crying for her. You know, I felt a big connection with her. She's a person that you can tell, she's very spiritual. And like I say, I'm a person of believing in God also. And I think, you know, that she was right. She's right, you know, God put me there for a reason.

COOPER: Do you have any doubt if you had not been there videotaping, do you have any doubt officer Slager would still be on the force right now? Would still be out there?

SANTANA: Well, just by reading the police report, it seems that the truth wasn't coming out. Wasn't going to be told to the people and to the family. Like I say. And after the video, after this evidence, that's when everything changed. So I believe if I didn't show this video, everything would have stayed the same.

COOPER: And finally, what is it like? What was it like when you know you have this video, you know, you've seen what you seen and you hear from the police their version of events, the initial version of events and you know what they're saying is not what happened? What does that feel like?

SANTANA: Like I say, it's something that you have to think about, you know. As soon as I saw that it wasn't easy for me just by knowing I have possession of something that is against what the law are saying and what the media, all of them on the media, you know, are covering and just saying that version of the police officer and you know you have in your hands possession of something that is showing the opposite. It's something, like I said, very difficult for me to have that information.


COOPER: We are going to have more of my conversation with Feidin ahead including whether Mr. Santana saw anyone doing CPR on Walter Scott.

Also tonight, a man who accused Michael Slager of using excessive force two years ago, he is speaking out. We are going to dig deeper on the complaint that he filed and how it was handled then.


[20:25:13] COOPER: We are showing you more of my interview with Feidin Santana who made the videotape, the documented killing of Walter Scott. I talked to him just before air. And before the break, he talked about how it felt to be in possession of such a powerful item when police are saying one thing but he knows what is on his tape says something else.

Here is part two of the conversation with Feidin's attorney, Todd Rutherford.


COOPER: Are you sure that the officers didn't try to perform CPR on Mr. Scott? I know the officer said that they did. Was there a time that you stopped recording at any moment that you might have missed anything?

SANTANA: No. I stopped recording and after I stopped recording, I stay there a couple of minutes. And never witnessed CPR to the victim. Never witnessed that.

COOPER: And did the police ever ask to see your video once they became aware of it? One would assume if the officer was confident that the shooting was justified, the officers on scene I'm talking about, they could have said, well, look, we need to talk to that guy. There was a guy on the scene with the cell phone, with the camera. His video will back me up in what I am saying. Did they ever tried to reach out to you?

SANTANA: On the scene, yes. Yes, on the scene one of the officers told me to stop, but it was because I say to them that what they did, it was an abuse and I witnessed everything. And I had it recorded. And after - like I say, after that, he just say to me - (INAUDIBLE) - he said to me to wait there. You know, I believe, you know, it was to question. So question me, like I say. I don't know what was going to happen and then yeah.

COOPER: So, did you wait there or did you leave by then? Where did you leave?

SANTANA: No, no, I left right away. I just left to my work.

COOPER: And you brought the video to the family. You did not bring the video to the police. Some people would have said, why not bring it to the police? I think it's very obvious why you might not have done that, but ...

TODD RUTHERFORD, FEIDIN SANTANA'S ATTORNEY: Anderson, if I could. He did bring it to the police. I called the lieutenant for SLED. SLED is the state police. That's the agency that investigates officer- involved shootings.

COOPER: Right. The South Carolina law enforcement ...

RUTHERFORD: And lieutenant came and retrieved a copy of the video, that's correct. They came and retrieved a copy of the video, showed it to the (INAUDIBLE) of Scarlet Wilson and the next day, a warrant was issued for Officer Slager's arrest.

COOPER: That was Monday night that that video was shown to SLED. Back now with the panel.

Mark Geragos, Harry Houck and Charles Blow. Mark, it's interesting to hear from the South Carolina law enforcement division saying in a press release that they put out today that there were early suspicions raised by their investigators within hours in advance as to what exactly took place because the public sure didn't hear anything, or the media certainly didn't hear anything about those alleged suspicions until this video was released.

MARK GERAGOS, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, what else are they going to say? They are going to say, oh, boy, we bought it, hook line and sinker? They - they are covering up. It's nothing more than a cover-up. It was a cover-up that started out there on the video. It was a cover-up that started when they were releasing the articles. You know, there is an article that I read that was in - I think it was the post-dispatch the day after this that made it seem as if Walter Scott struggled and tried to grab for the gun and everything else, all the script that they usually, the cops usually give. They have put that out to the press.

So, if there were any doubts, where were they on the day after? The only time there were any doubts is when everybody went scrambling like little cockroaches after this video showed up.

COOPER: Charles, you wrote in "The Times" today. You said that body cameras worn by police would, quote, "have an impact on policy and culture, but the change in culture must be bigger than both." What do you mean by that, what change in culture? CHARLES BLOW, NEW YORK TIMES OP-ED COLUMNIST: Well, I think, you know, we spoke on equipment and I think equipment can be helpful. But I do believe that you have a culture, in which people who may be prone to aggression and use of violence may be attracted to become police officers and I do believe you have a situation in police forces where when something does go wrong, not enough people step up to the plate and say, you know what? This is wrong. I have to say something. I am not going to stand by you. Even though, you know, you're my brother and in the force, I'm not going to stand by you because I believe this is wrong, and I believe that if we keep saying there're so many good cops out there. We have to start hearing from them. We actually have to start seeing the fruit of that because until that starts to happen, the culture doesn't happen.

We always focus on the idea of there's a no snitching culture in the communities and if that was one of the most disturbing parts of the Ferguson report was there were so many people who were really reticent about coming forward because their narrative did not line up with what they - with the community consensus. Well, this is the same thing. It's just a glove turned inside out. If you are ...

COOPER: You are ...

BLOW: If you are not willing to step up and also snitch, then why are you then saying that this is a bad thing within the community, but you won't do it yourself? Because you're setting a poor example yourselves.

COOPER: And I even hate that term snitching, whether it shouldn't be here ...

BLOW: Right. I'm just saying - but that's just a term.

COOPER: Because it's really telling the truth.

BLOW: Right. That's right. It's being honorable.

COOPER: It's being a citizen.

BLOW: It's being honorable. It's being humane. It's saying ...

COOPER: What about this blue wall of silence?

HARRY HOUCK, RETIRED NYPD DETECTIVE: OK, the blue wall of silence is something that - it's probably definitely evident in the police departments a long time ago. Now, I can tell you from experience and of course, when another officer snitches another officer out for something that he did, we're not going to be talking about it here on Anderson Cooper. You're not going to hear about it. Now, when I was in internal affairs, we have in NYPD ...

COOPER: You worked internal affairs?

HOUCK: Yes, we have what's called an action desk? Where people can call 24/7 and people answered. I'm telling you, about 50 percent of the calls we got were from other officers. All right? <20:35:00>

HOUCK: They might have been afraid to say something because, you know, that cop has got to back me up tomorrow. Maybe I won't get a backup. And they would call, they would drop the dime on another officer, OK? And then they would get a code number, so we would know who they are to identify them later on. All right and then we would conduct an investigation. And a lot of people ...


COOPER: In the community, though, on whether doctors, I mean communities protect their own.

HOUCK: Of course, doctors, lawyers, everyone does it. Police officers tend to do it. So do probably news reporters.


BLOW: There's the slight difference here, right? I know there's a difference with police officers.

HOUCK: No, let me just say this. When's the last time you read an article about "New York Times?"

BLOW: And this is, now we're moving into my area.

HOUCK: Well, actually right.

BLOW: This is exactly what happens. Because we understand that if something happens and you do something really wrong, then you've hurt my reputation. It's not just that you've hurt yourself, you've hurt all of us.

HOUCK: I agree.

BLOW: And so, people are very quick in this industry to say, I want to have nothing to do with you. And I think, you know, the police officers have much more difficult jobs than we do on a physical level, in terms of threat and all of that. But I do believe that some of that ethos has to migrate into the police force because you have to say the same thing. You are hurting my ability to do my job. People are not going to want to cooperate with me because you have done something.


BLOW: It hurts civic.

HOUCK: I'm agreeing with you 100 percent. I agree with you 100 percent on that issue and I just said, there was a large blue wall of silence back in the day.

BLOW: You believe it's cracking.

HOUCK: That is cracking. BLOW: OK.

HOUCK: I'm telling you right now, it's cracking.

BLOW: Mark Geragos, thank you. Harry Houck, Charles Blow, a good discussion.

Just ahead, the now fired officer's mom speaking out for the first time. Plus, breaking news tonight. Tornadoes in Iowa, Illinois, Ohio. The latest on the severe weather in just moment.


COOPER: Welcome back. You are looking at live video of the U.S. census bureau in Suitland, Maryland, just outside Washington. You can see a heavy police presence there. There apparently has been a shooting. A security guard was wounded and he has been taken to the hospital and we should warn you, information is very sketchy at this point and as you know, the earliest reports in these kind of active shooting situations are often incorrect. According to our local affiliate WJLA, a gunman is still barricaded inside the census facility, it's considered according to WJLA an active shooter situation. People on the scene have been reported hearing large bangs, the district police saying this may have started as some kind of armed kidnapping. Those are all the details we have. We are back with former NYPD detective Harry Houck.

Harry, you trained folks in active shooting situations. I've been reading a lot of FBI studies of active shooter situations which have been increasing over the last five or six years. Much of the killing in active shooter situations takes place within the first several minutes.

HOUCK: Right, within the first two minutes usually and usually when most active shooters either police coming, they don't want to really confront them. All right, now, they shoot themselves, oh, basically shoot themselves or surrender. But if it's a terrorist situation, that's not going to occur. If it's a terrorist situation, and it's an active shooter, let's say, in a mall or something, they're going to wait until the police take them out.

COOPER: The majority, so far, I mean again, from the FBI study I was actually just reading, I've been working on this subject a lot, it's usually people who have some sort of mental health issue.

HOUCK: Right.

COOPER: Again, we don't know the details involved of who this gunman is, if it is just a single gunman. I can tell you, it's a very chaotic situation because there are reports of another incident nearby this facility and again, these are very early reports. So it's not clear if it's just a coincidence, if that's an erroneous report. I think that's the Navy Yard shooting in Washington, D.C. several years ago. You know, that was only one shooter with mental health issues, but the early reports based on eyewitnesses indicated there may be as many as three shooters. So again, it's very chaotic at this point. What we do know is that "The Washington Post" is reporting that about 7:45 p.m., two dozen military clad officers with rifles entered the census campus and began sweeping through the parking garages and lots. Shortly before 8:00 p.m., I'm told, three small explosions could be heard. Again, those three small explosions could very well be flash bang grenades that a tactical unit might be using to clear a room.

HOUCK: Yeah. Exactly. I'm concerned about you're saying there's another incident close by. If one incident is the diversion for another incident.

COOPER: I can - I was just interviewing the chief of police in Washington earlier today for another story I'm working on. And she was saying often, when there's an incident in one place, the police force immediately starts to look all around for any other potential connected incidences.

HOUCK: Right. I'm glad they're doing that. Because they definitely should. Because you don't know if this is a diversion in one location and that they are hoping that all law enforcement goes to one location and then the real attack occurs at another location.

COOPER: Or if a potential gunman has left one area and is now somewhere else --

HOUCK: Of course. Right. Exactly.

COOPER: There's a lot of different - a lot of different alternatives. It's very interesting, though, in these active shooting situations how police forces since Columbine, since even the Mumbai attacks have started to change their tactics. Prior to Columbine, it used to be my understanding, is that local officers responding, initial officers on the scene secure the perimeter, make sure nobody gets out, make sure no - more potential victims go in ...

HOUCK: Right.

COOPER: Wait for tactical, you know, wait for SWAT team. Now because of, as you said, most of the killings were done in the first couple of minutes, they now believe you've got to go in.

HOUCK: You've got to go in.

COOPER: As best as you can't --

HOUCK: Right. And I understand. I mean if a police department has, let's say, we have an active shooter in a mall. Where you've got hundreds of people. You can't wait for the area - for the perimeter to be closed out and wait for a tactical unit because during that time, 50, 75 people might be killed. Myself as an officer, when I responded to a shots fired, I would go right in. I wouldn't wait for back-up, we would go right in. And that's what these officers would have to do in a situation like that. You have to go right in - and you've got to eliminate that threat as fast as possible.

[20:45:00] COOPER: In the Navy Yard shooting, I think back to several years ago in Washington, D.C., which is the Washington, D.C. police force learned a lot from.

HOUCK: Right.

COOPER: When you look at the initial officers who went into that building, there were DOD officers, there were local police, there were bicycle cops still in their bicycle helmets and shorts who went in there because time is really of the essence.

HOUCK: Exactly. You know, what's really important also, though, you know, a lot of these locations where there's a lot of people. What they need is to coordinate with the police department and say, OK, this is what we've got to do. Let's have a plan in the event there's an active shooter attack. How would you respond, how should we respond and work together so that in the event it does happen, we have the least amount of people injured as possible?

COOPER: And again, if you're just joining us, we have very scant information. What we do know, that there has been a shooting at the census office in Maryland. A security guard said to have been shot and wounded. He has been taken - she has been taken to the hospital. We don't have the identity, obviously, of that person. Tactical units are certainly on the scene. The number of local media "Washington Post" and other people, eyewitnesses on the scene have reported hearing some bangs. That's the word it was described to me as. A series of three bangs. We don't know if that's something from the gunman or from flash bang grenades. On the phone, joining us right now is CNN producer Angie Yack. Angie, you're on the scene. Explain what you know has happened and what you have heard and seen.

ANGIE YACK, CNN PRODUCER: Hi, Anderson. About a block and a half away from the census bureau. Right now in the past few minutes, we've seen police on motorcycles and vehicles driving to in front the building. We're about a block and a half away. So, we can't really see what's happening at the building. There's a metro that's like half a block away. They are stopping people who are coming off the metro and heading in that direction.

COOPER: There was an initial report about or at least a chaotic scene nearby on, I don't know if there had been another incident. Do you know anything about that?

YACK: I don't have any information about that. That was on 8th street. We're in Suitland, Maryland, outside of Washington, D.C. I believe the other incident was in D.C. near the Union Station - near the train station.

COOPER: OK, so it's not clear whether, a, what the nature of that incident was or if it has any relation to this and again, I do think it's important to reiterate often the early reports one gets, even from eyewitnesses are often incorrect or have a kernel of truth, but do not tell the full details, and sometimes it takes quite a while for those details to be known. Harry Houck, thank you. Angie Yack, thank you. We'll continue to cover that and bring you any updates as warranted.

We have more breaking news tonight, tornadoes touching down in at least three states. The latest from Chad Myers when we come back.


COOPER: We have breaking news tonight. Tornadoes have struck in eastern Iowa, northern Illinois and Ohio. Looking at live video from storm chaser Matt Sallow in Washington County, Iowa. Back in the weather center, Chad Myers is tracking all of it. He joins us tonight. So, what's the latest, Chad?

CHAD MYERS, CNN METEOROLOGIST: We have and still do, Anderson, have large and violent tornadoes at threes, maybe at fours. I've seen video of these storms on the ground. Many of them through farmland, but some have hit cities. They are moving out of northern Illinois and into southern Wisconsin right now. Bonner's Lake area. You need to be taking cover. To the east of Rockford, be taking cover. That's Harvard area there. These have been large wedged tornadoes, with wind speeds in excess of 130 to 150 miles per hour. Here they are now east of Rockford moving to the northeast. Grand Prairie was hit very hard by a tornado. Also now just to the west of Rochelle hit hard. We know that there are damage and injuries in that area. Farther to the south, there's more weather popping up.

These storms are not dying down. In fact, they're still getting stronger as we talk right now. So down to the southern part of Illinois, all the way down even toward Longview, Texas. We have had tornadoes on the ground. There's the storm near Woodstock, moving to northeast, not the town itself here. Rockford, the rotation to the east of you farther down to the south into - just to the east of even St. Louis now picking up some storms. Any storm tonight, Anderson, that starts to rotate, has nothing to fight with. These are individual cells, they are super cells and they begin to rotate in this atmosphere and we have large tornadoes on the ground. And will continue to have them. A lot of the night we'll be here watching them, but you need to take precautions yourself if you live in any of these areas, you need to have - to know where the radio on. If you don't, find an app for your phone that will wake you up. This is going to be a dangerous night tonight, Anderson.

COOPER: So, this is important to radar. You are saying, conditions exist, that there could be more tornadoes tonight.

MYERS: Typically, at nighttime, the storms go away. But we have an upper level piece of energy that's coming in cooling off the upper atmosphere and that air down to the surface still wants to rise. So the cooling off of the lower atmosphere, the cooing off of where we live is doing nothing to slow these storms down. In fact, they're still getting stronger right now.

COOPER: Chad, thank you very much for that.

Coming up next, we want to change pace here. So, we are going to make you smile a little bit before the end of the night. Mike Rose bullfighting adventure. It's all part of his new series "Somebody's got to do it. It premieres at the top of the hour. Mike joins us here next.


COOPER: Well, just a few minutes - the second season micro. "Somebody's Got to Do It," Mike Rowe debut is here on CNN. Once again, Mike is on a mission to introduce us to people who perform unique jobs. Tonight he shows us the art of bullfighting. I spoke to Mike Rowe earlier.


COOPER: All right, so in the first episode of the new season, you train as a bullfighter. Now, when I first heard of this, I was wondering like a matador, like you are dressed up.

MIKE ROWE: Yeah, right. Me, too.

COOPER: That's not what it is.


COOPER: This is one of these guys who goes in there to distract the bull when somebody falls down?

ROWE: Once upon a time, they were called rodeo clowns ...

COOPER: Right.

ROWE: But in the bullfighting world, it's much more specialized and it's a whole lot more serious and these guys are, they are the unsung heroes of the sport. You fall off the bull and you're going to be trampled or gored if somebody doesn't run in to distract it and that's what they do.

COOPER: And how do you protect yourself during that? It's like a 2,000 pound bull.

ROWE: Yeah, I mean it's a two-part process. The first part is, you turn and then you run.


ROWE: That was my strategy.

COOPER: Very technical.

ROWE: Yeah, thank you.

COOPER: You've done a lot of crazy stuff. Were you terrified?

ROWE: A little more than usual. I mean - it's my state of terror is, you know, homeostatic, basically. It's - you know, I mean I'm not normally petrified, but I'm always a fish out of water. So it takes me a couple of minutes usually to get my head around it and then once I got it, I was sufficiently adrenalized.

COOPER: Is that a word, adrenalized?


ROWE: Not at all. Don't use it. Not on the air. It's confusing.

COOPER: Homeostatic. It's going to be my new word.

ROWE: It's all part of the value add.


COOPER: In you go to a chocolatier.

ROWE: I did that.

COOPER: Well, that sounds much more - that's more, I'm up for that.


ROWE: Right. Honey, get in here. He's making chocolate.

COOPER: Exactly.

ROWE: No, the idea ...

COOPER: Do you go directly from the bulling to the chocolatier, by the way?



ROWE: No, I actually went directly from the bull thing to the hospital. Because even though the whole bull chasing thing turned out OK, and this happens all the time. The thing you worry most about never gets you. But 20 minutes after that, the steel mechanism on the latch that controls one of 65 different pens in which the bulls are stored swung loose and smashed my little finger. Exploded.

COOPER: Are you serious?

ROWE: Yeah, took my fingernail off. It hurt in a way that made me make a high pitched sound like a little girl and I turned around.

COOPER: Did they edit that out?

ROWE: No, they cut it into the promo. You know what you guys do, it's like - oh, this, look at that! It leaves bleeds. Put mike in there. I turned to Frank, the bullfighter and I hold up my hand like - you know, have you ever seen anything so horrific and Frank looks at me, one of these, and holds up his hand, same hand, half the finger is gone ...


ROWE: OK, and he says, yeah, that looks like it stung. I'll call you when my grows back.


ROWE: You can't complain with cowboys.

COOPER: Yeah. Mike, thanks very much.

ROWE: Of course, thank you.

COOPER: That's fun.

ROWE: Yes.

COOPER: Thank you.

Mike certainly has an interesting job in itself. It's certainly never dull. That does it for us. The Season 2 of "Somebody's Gotta Do it" starts now.


COOPER: Stick around.