Return to Transcripts main page

Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees

Suspect in Washintgon, DC, Quadruple Murder Captured; TLC Pulls "19 Kids and Counting" from Air; Baltimore Officer: Morale is "In The Sewer". Aired 8-9p ET

Aired May 22, 2015 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[20:00:10] ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: Good evening. Thanks for joining us.

Tonight, we have breaking news. One of the key witnesses has changed their story in the multiple mores that shocked Washington in the country. Changed their account of what happened to tens of thousands of dollars. That's just one of the many new things we are learning since the take down last night of the suspect and fugitive, Doran Wint.

Now, Wint is in jail tonight being held without bail in the killings of the Savopoulos family and including their 10-year-old child Philipp and housekeeper, Veralicia Figuaroa. Now, in a moment, we will look closer at the evidence that investigators say ties him of the horror that unfolded in the home last week.

Four people held captive, terrorized, allegedly tortured, murdered then left to burn in a fire that was deliberately set. We are going to look as well at what might and what already does point to additional conspirators and explore what kind of person can do some of this or simply be part of it.

First, Pamela Brown brings us up to speed.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

PAMELA BROWN, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The newly released court documents suggest Daron Wint arrested overnight in a massive police take down could not have acted alone. Allegedly kidnapping and holding the Savopoulos family and their housekeeper hostage for 18 hours before brutally beating them, stabbing them and setting their house on fire.

Tonight, CNN has learned police believe Wint and others were involved in an elaborate shake down of the family, one that involves Savvos Savopoulos asking the family's assistant to go to a nearby bank to withdraw $40,000 in cash and then deliver to the house.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We tracked them to New York city and we barely missed him.

BROWN: Sources tell CNN Wint had been hiding out in his girlfriend's New York City apartment possibly since Sunday and made his way back toward Washington where he was arrested overnight. Police say Wint was spotted getting into a white Chevy Cruze outside a Maryland Howard Johnson hotel along with three other women. Police also spotted a moving truck traveling ahead of Wint's car inside was his brother and another man.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're followed for about four or five miles and they did a wacky u-turn. We thought, maybe they felt they were being tailed. We followed them. We continued to follow them. We called PG county police and they sent up a helicopter.

BROWN: Inside the box rack police found at least $10,000. Tonight, investigators are looking at what role the group may have played in the brutal killings of the Savopoulos family, especially in light of the complexity of holding them hostage, extorting them and then burning down the house.

MARY ELLEN O'TOOLE, FBI PROFILER: You don't have to spend multiple hours, eight, nine, ten hours in someone's home to extort money. And in this case, I'm very certain that the father would have given the offender ten times $40,000 just to get him out of the house.

BROWN: New court documents including autopsies released tonight show just how brutal the 18-hour ordeal was. 10-year-old Phillip Savopoulos was found burned with stab wounds in the upstairs bedroom. The fire were allegedly fuelled by gasoline before it threw out the house.

The other adults were found in another room with blunt force wounds. Fire fighters tried to save the housekeeper, but she died at the hospital. Tonight, investigators appear to be questioning the story told by one key witness who police say was a frequent driver for the family and was asked by Savopoulos to pick up the $40,000 ransom in a Bank of America and deliver it to the family. Police say in court documents, that witness changed his or her story about the cash drop off to the home.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: And Pamela Brown just joins us now.

I have just been reading the police report. It's a little confusing. Can you explain, Pamela, how that key witness changed their story and what we know about them?

BROWN: It is confusing, Anderson, but if you read through it. It doesn't add up. It said that basically the assistant of the Savopoulos family changed his or her story multiple times on several key points about the money drop. The money that was allegedly taken to the home, that $40,000.

And here are the key points. Initially, he said that he was told by Mr. Savopoulos to bring a package to the home on Thursday, the day of the incident when in fact, it turns out he later told detectives that he lied about that. That it was actually Wednesday when he received the indication from Mr. Savopoulos to pick the package the next morning. Also, initially the assistant said that when he arrived at the home,

the car where he was told to put the package in was locked and he later said to detectives that the car was actually unlocked. He also said that he -- when he picked up the package, he put the money in a manila folder. He later told detective that initially he put the money in a red line bag and then later put the money in a manila folder inside the car.

The last thing is he changed from saying there were four bundles of cash -- he or she actually say, because we don't know yet that there were four versus two bundles of cash. So some key points here that the assistant changed his or her the story on. So it makes you wonder whether the assistant was set up here, whether the assistant may be complicit, you know. What's going on here?

We can tell you, Anderson, that detectives are still very active in this investigation. No other arrests have been made. But they do believe that Daron Wint did have other accomplices. And I can tell you just from reading through the court document, it does appear that may be the case -- Anderson.

[20:05:31] COOPER: Right. And one case, a person with short hair, an African-American male where an eyewitness claim was seen with short hair driving the family car, the Porsche away. But Mr. Wint does not have short hair.

BROWN: Right. And that's an interesting point too. So that's something, you know, investigators are looking at that comparing the hairstyles. As you also say, though, there was another witness that was interviewed and this is in the court documents. And that witness had a picture of that red line bag with the money in it which makes you wonder why a picture of the money would be sent in the first place if the assistant we just told to pick up the package and drop it off at the home.

COOPER: Yes, very strange that this assistant would have lied to police.

Pamela Brown, appreciate that.

Earlier seen and spoke by phone with Daron Wint's father, Dennis, who confirmed that Daron's brother was with him during the take down last night and says he was helping to bring him in to police, the brother along with four others apprehended at the time have been released.

Let's dig deeper now into all, the aspects of this fast-moving investigation, including the prosecution's theory that this was not a one-person crime. We are joined by Northeastern University criminologist James Alan Fox, also a forensic pathologist Judy Melinek and retired NYPD detective Harry Houck, our newest law enforcement analyst.

HARRY HOUCK, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: If I can take a second, I really have thank you for getting me the job here at CNN.

COOPER: Glad you are here. HOUCK: I really appreciate it. This man was responsible for this

occurrence. So I would like to thank CNN and Mr. (INAUDIBLE) for this.

COOPER: Great to have you here. What do you make of a witness changing their story and lying about details?

HOUCK: I have no problem because that's not such a big thing to be able to do is drop off money and leave, alright? The fact that he is changing his story kind that tells me he might be complicit and not panicking up with good theory also that maybe the money was not dropped off. We don't have any witnesses there seen that. So it's very, very strange. And know the detectives are taking a deep, deep look at that. That he might somehow --

COOPER: Right. And we should say he or she because we really don't know, if this is a man or woman. The prosecutors say that Wint did not act alone. But those who arrested with him last night have already been released. Does that surprising (INAUDIBLE)?

HOUCK: I'm very surprised. I'm very surprised. It tells me one of two things, either is they cooperated with the police fully and when they were separated, the stories were consistently the same and they couldn't break the stories on them and also, that there might not be any more evidence left at that house that hey collected. Because the first thing I would do and I'm sure the detectives would have done, too, is that there was other unidentified evidence at the crime scene that they would have tried to match -- it's five people to that type of evidence. So releasing them too fast. But remember, they were in custody for like at least five or seven hours.

COOPER: Right.

James, the brutal nature of this crime, the amount of time that was spent in the house, what does that tell you about whoever did this, individual or individuals?

JAMES ALAN FOX, AUTHOR, EXTREME KILLING: Well, you know, most mass murderers, this is a mass murder, are not random. The victims are targeted for specific reason. Now, in the case of the Savopoulos, he is obviously a wealthy, but also apparently Wint's previously worked at the company, American Iron Works company, for which the victims were a CEO. So we don't yet. But it may be that there some element of vendetta along with, of course, the profit mode. Profits, very common motive amongst any mass murders.

And let me say this. When cases like this, three quarters of the time there is more than one perpetrator. So I would not be surprised if there is more than one. And indeed the way this case will probably be cracked is someone is going to turn state's evidence, will make a deal and testify against the others.

COOPER: Dr. Melinek, I mean, for the linking the suspect or suspects to the crime whether DNA or other evidence, what does the medical examiner -- what are they going to be looking for during the autopsy? Because we know, according to the police report, DNA was taken off some partially eaten pizza slices.

DR. JUDY MELINEK, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: Well, the pizza slices were not burn and that's what makes it good for getting DNA. Because if you are burning something, it's also going to destroy the DNA. So primarily, the medical examiner is going to be focusing on the injuries to the bodies and also collecting any trace evidence on the bodies that can be linked to the suspect or suspects, areas where DNA can be picked up as long as the body is not burned or things like clipping the finger nails. We clip the finger nails and we take scrapping underneath so that way, that can be a preserved area for picking up trace evidence, DNA that can be linked to multiple suspects.

[20:10:14] COOPER: But Dr. Melinek, if you have multiple people in the house and they believe there was more than one conspirator, whether they were in the house or not, we don't know. If there is multiple people in the house, that you then have multiple chances for DNA. I mean, if you are in a house for more over 12 hours, moving around that house, there is a lot of potential places you could have left hair samples and things like that.

MELINEK: That's exactly right. So the longer times that the perpetrators spent in that house, the more likely that they are going to be spreading their evidence there and things not just even DNA, but also fingerprints. So that gives the crime scene analyst an opportunity to look into that. But role of the medical examiner is primarily just speaks to what happened to the bodies. What are the injuries on the bodies? What transpired there in terms of the injuries that killed this family and the housekeeper.

COOPER: And Harry, as you point out, in reading the police report, I mean, this is a very bloody crime. There would have been a lot of blood involved, potentially blood on whoever was who committed these murders. The question is, I mean, given the amount of time they spent at the house, did they shower there? If they did, there is also potentially DNA evidence in the shower, so.

HOUCK: But I tell you what it -- it is very interesting is that only $10,000 was recovered. That's what the report was. Where did the other $30,000 go? I mean, was it really $40,000 or the other money go to the other conspirators? That's pretty important. They didn't spent $30,000 --

COOPER: James Alan Fox, does that surprise you as well?

FOX: Yes. Not at all. It's amazing how greed can be a powerful motivator. I mean, you think about what will makes someone do this? Money. It happens time and time again. Money and profit over people's lives.

COOPER: Yes.

James Alan Fox, it is good to have you on. Judy Melinek, Harry Houck as well.

Coming up next, more on how the DNA evidence that we have been discussing is gather, how it processed and analyzed and use in court. We will take you inside the process from start to finish.

Later, the scandal rocking America's best known and biggest reality TV family, the Duggars. Sexual abuse while publicly preaching family values.

We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:15:55] COOPER: There so many facts that shocked conscious in the Washington murder case. There are other aspects, though, it sparked the imagination. For one, and we touched on this just moments ago. There is a notion that a key piece of the puzzle in the killings of four people, they turned out to be the stuff that makes all of us human, DNA. And to a forensic scientist and prosecutor, it can be as good as a fingerprint.

Alexandra Field shows us tonight how they find it, isolate it and turn it into courtroom evidence.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ALEXANDRA FIELD, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It is potentially the smoking gun, a pizza box found at the scene inside, crust that investigators say connects Daron Wint to a heinous crime.

This is a pretty good find for an investigator.

The doctor David Zhang runs a DNA identification lad at Mt. Sinai hospital in New York City. He says a single bite mark can be enough to crack a case.

TATYANA ROSALIE, MT. SANAI LAB TECHNOLOGIST: You swab the pizza to get as much DNA from the crust as we can.

FIELD: Zhang says investigators also likely tested a crumb.

ROSALIE: Put it in a tube and get the cells out and proceed with the DNA constructions.

FIELD: First, a machine separates out the DNA.

This is releasing the DNA from the cell.

Then the sample is sample is amplified millions of copies are made that makes the sample large enough to be seen with the help of another machine.

DR. DAVID ZHANG, MT. SANAI MOLECULAR GENERIC PATHOLOGIST: The laser would have traced the DNA. And that is what you are going to see here.

FIELD: It's a unique read out called a DNA fingerprint. To solve the case, that fingerprint can be added to or matched in a federal database including some 14 million different profiles.

ZHANG: Hair, saliva, urine, semen, all these can be used.

FIELD: The Seemingly small clues picked up at crime scenes, Zhang says the piece of crust can yield millions of cells or even just a few. Sometimes that's just enough to identify a suspect or even solve the case.

Alexandra Field, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: It is fascinating staff. For more on DNA in the lab and in the courtroom, we are joined by Lawrence Kobilinsky, he chairs the department of forensic science at the John Jay College of criminal justice here in New York. Also CNN legal analyst and criminal defense attorney, Danny Cevallos.

Dr. Kobilisnky, the chances of this guy being on this national DNA databases are so slim, how exactly does someone get on that? Is it from a prior crime?

LAWRENCE KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST: Well, The database is called codis. It is (INAUDIBLE). It has got three levels. There is a local database which count the scape. There are state databases which the states keep and the national database.

Now, at the state level, each date determines what kind of crimes are eligible for the database. So what is true in California might not be true in New York. But the point is there an awful lot of people that are convicted felons that on this codis (ph) system. Almost 12 million people. So that if somebody does commit a crime and leaves DNA behind, checking codis is likely to find somebody if they have committed a crime before.

COOPER: And Danny, you say that the specific DNA evidence is fascinating because it's unique for its kind. What do you mean by that?

DANNY CEVALLOS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, DNA evidence is circumstantial in its nature. But we have been collecting DNA from bite marks for about 20 years at least. And they yield surprisingly good samples. I mean, people have been swabbing food like cheese even with its high bacteria content can preserve a saliva sample.

The fascinating this is that these records that Dr. Kobilinsky talked about are only going to increase, especially in line to the fact that the Supreme Court very recently ruled that not only can convicted defendants be DNA swabbed, but those arrested without a warrant just on probably cause can be swab and their DNA record stored just like fingerprinting or photographing which means, Anderson, that the NDA information and databases are only grow going geometrically going forward.

[20:20:00] COOPER: We don't know, Danny, how strong a case prosecutors have against Wint. I mean, the presence of his DNA on the pizza if that's true which is what authorities have said that will obviously place him at the scene, we don't know what else, though, they collected, if anything.

CEVALLOS: Playing devil's advocate and thinking like a defense attorney, finding the pizza crust at the house does places DNA in the house. But you look for defense attorney to make the argument that pizza and pizza crust are things that can be carried in, DNA is something that can be transferred pretty easily and look for them to find out all the other DNA that was collected from the house. We don't know yet who else's DNA is in the house where at least four people had regular access to. So I would expect going forward, even though that DNA that we know of now is strong circumstantial evidence on the defense side. Look for defense attorney to make a lot of the fact that all that establishes that DNA was on a pizza crust and there is other information that sort of clouds that conclusion. So just playing devil's advocate and thinking ahead. As strong as that DNA evidences and it's strong, there is another side to that coin.

COOPER: Dr. Kobilinsky, how much DNA is left behind just from somebody being in the house, whether -- even if they -- I'm not talking about what was left on any of the bodies, any, you know, blood evidence, but just fibers, things like that. How -- if you have multiple assailants or perpetrators in the house, how likely is it? Because I mean, fires were set in specific rooms in accelerant was use, but the entire house didn't go up in flame. How likely is it that, you know, flakes of skin, eyelashes, hair fell off?

KOBIILINSKY: It is a good question. And the answer is it is quite likely. And the reason for that is for example, we mentioned hair. People lose approximately a hundred scalp hairs every day. If you been there for 24 hours, you will have left your hair samples behind.

This particular case, what we are hearing is that the victims were restrained with duct tape. Duct tape is not an easy specimen to get DNA from, but it can be done. That might explain the presence Wint and maybe to somebody else. One thing that DNA can do is tell you whether there mixtures or not and that would give us insight into whether there was more than one person in all when this happen.

COOPER: I didn't realize about the hundred hair thing. That's fascinating.

Dr. Kobilinsky, thank you. Danny Cevallos as well.

Up next, scandal hits the Duggar family after their eldest son has revealed to have molested multiple young girls in the past. What they are saying and why nobody did anything immediately about it at the time. That is next.

Also tonight, the murder rate in Baltimore skyrocketing while the arrest rate is taking of a dive. One officer says the police forces just doing the bare minimum on purpose. It is startling accusation. We will dig deeper.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:26:59] COOPER: Well, TLC has pulled all episodes of "19 kids and counting" from the air amid a molestation scandal that is disturbing implications far beyond reality television.

27-year-old Josh Duggar has apologized after reports surfaced that he molested multiple young girls when he was 14. In a post on facebook, he writes that he quote "acted inexcusably, hurt his family and close friend." Duggar is into someone from reality show. He also worked with the family research counsellor, a group that says is about faith and family, a group that lobbies against same-sex marriage. He has now resigned from that position. It's not just what he did that causing outrage, but also how his parents and police handled it.

Randi Kaye has detailed.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Fifteen successful seasons for the Duggar family's reality show, "19 kids and counting." But the secret is out. Josh Duggar, now 27 and the oldest of the children on the TLC show, had sexually abused several girls when he was a teenager and his parents didn't report it for some time. "In Touch" Magazine broke the story.

RICK EGUSQUIZA, WEST COAST EDITOR, IN TOUCH MAGAZINE: It was a total of five victims and the ages. You know, if you do the math, the ages range probably between five and 12 years old.

KAYE: "In Touch" magazine obtained the 2006 police report. The magazine reports that Josh Duggar was investigated for multiple sex offenses, including some that were felonies. In Touch found that Jim Bob Duggar, Josh's father told police he was made aware of it in 2002 when a girl complained Josh, then 14, had been touching her breasts and genitals while she slept.

Instead of alerting authorities, though, the magazine said Jim Bob told police Josh had been disciplined. Then it reportedly happen again in 2003. In a statement released Thursday, Josh Duggar said 12 years ago as a young teenager I acted inexcusably for which am extremely sorry and deeply regret. I hurt others including my family and close friends.

What josh's statement doesn't say is that his parents didn't tell police about what had happened until one year after their son had confessed to them, one year. And even then, they reportedly alerted in Arkansas state trooper who was also a family friend. That trooper didn't take any official police action.

Instead, the magazine says Trooper Joseph Hutchins gave Josh a very stern talk. Hutchins by the way is now serving 56 years in prison for child pornography. Police only started investigating in 2006 after an anonymous letter to the Oprah Winfrey show, warning producers if the Duggars appear on Oprah, she would be embarrassed.

Oprah's team called the child abuse hotline and police started asking questions. In Touch reports that one of the victims told police in 20065 that Josh had told mother and dad what had happened and asked for forgiveness. [20:30:03] All of this has fans of the family's hit show reeling. The

Duggars are devout Christians. Josh Duggar also worked as the executive director of FRC action, the lobbying arm of the family research council, a group known for advocating against the rights of the LGBT community.

It also has said gays pose a danger to children. Josh also backed his mother's work, opposing an ordinance designed to protect transgender people in Arkansas. Michelle Duggar compared transgenders to child predators.

RICK EGUSQUIZA, WEST COAST EDITOR, "IN TOUCH" MAGAZINE: Here her son, most of the family knew what he had done in his past. So yes, it's hypocrisy.

KAYE: Josh Duggar stepped down from the Family Research Council Thursday and TLC pulled 19 kids and counting from the TV schedule.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: We should point out they haven't canceled the show. They are simply taking it off the air for now. Randi joins us. Why is all coming out now?

KAYE (on camera): Well, report, the police report was basically buried all these years. It wasn't until "In Touch" magazine filed the right paperwork to try and get that report made public, which they did.

And also the magazine says that the victims have pretty much -- it appears that they have forgiven Josh Duggar for this. He was asking for forgiveness. The family has said that it's brought all of them closer to God.

So it sort of just went away after all these years and didn't get much attention because police tried to interview Josh Duggar when they first found out about it in 2006.

And Jim Bob, the dad, said, you can't interview my son and refused to bring him to the police station and say he'd hired a lawyer. That was the end of it.

COOPER: There is a statute of limitations, I guess --

KAYE: Right, absolutely so there is nothing they can do about it.

COOPER: Wow, it's fascinating, Randi. Appreciate that. We are going to have more on this story in a moment. We are going to look into some of the troubling questions about why Josh Duggar was never prosecuted and why no one was protecting it seems his victims. Details ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:35:46] COOPER: Josh Duggar's molestation of young girls was kept a secret for years even as he took a job with the Conservative Family Research Council. As the show became more and more popular and as he preached family values.

Now here he is talking about the virtue of waiting until his wedding day to even kiss his wife.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOSH DUGGAR: Not only to us, but the young people in the room it was a testimony to be able to say they've waited.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: He is alleged to have done a number of things with young girls and in some cases while they were asleep. Joining me are Attorney Areva Marvin, psychiatrist, Dr. Gail Saltz, and CNN's Brian Stelter.

Areva, first of all, the fact that Josh Duggar's father waited more than a year to tell police about this, apparently, he told people at his church, but no one in the church said anything about it to police in all that time. What do you make of this?

AREVA MARTIN, ATTORNEY: Very troubling, Anderson. The father is not a mandatory reporter, but I get concern when I hear that he did talk to people in the church because quite possibly clergy and pastors in that may be mandatory reporters and they may have had an obligation to report this to the police.

This whole story is really disturbing because it looks as if there may have been relatives involved who were actually the victims of this crime. Everyone is talking about it like it's a mistake, a youthful indiscretion.

I think it's really important that we call it what it is and criminal acts were committed by Josh Duggar and we need to just be really honest and clear about that because otherwise we marginalize these victims.

COOPER: I mean, Areva, the idea that this guy, Josh Duggar, again, according to "In Touch" magazine only got a very stern talking to from an Arkansas state trooper that his father later took him to, a state trooper who now, again, according to this magazine is serving 56 years in prison for child pornography, it just sounds crazy.

It sounds like he got special treatment. I don't know of a lot of kids in different circumstances who are not famous who would just get a stern talking to from a law enforcement personnel.

MARTIN: Complete uneven justice in this case. That state trooper had an obligation to conduct an investigation and to turn these changes over to the district attorney. It wasn't his decision to make as to what should happen.

This is a sexual assault that is a class b felony under Arkansas law. So quite possibly there would have been a prosecution by the prosecuting attorney and Josh could have ended up in juvenile detention. He could have ended up in some kind of facility. He would have been punished at the same time, hopefully some kind of intervention and rehabilitation. By this state trooper just acting as judge and jury, complete dereliction of his duties, and I think CPS too, Anderson.

We have to talk about where was Child Protective Services in all of this because these victims had not been protected and the system has failed them.

COOPER: Brian, TLC, the network that airs their show, they pulled all the episodes of their show from the air. I'm wondering, though, if this is going to be seen -- it sounds like it already is being seen through the lens of politics.

They already have some political leaders, you know, Mike Huckabee, talking about forgiveness and whether this will become like sort of the Phil Robertson thing where people take sides based on what side of the political isle they are on.

BRIAN STELTER, CNN SENIOR MEDIA CORRESPONDENT: We are seeing that today. Mike Huckabee's name was trending on Twitter at the same time the name of the show was trending. He seemed to be courting social conservatives with his long Facebook message saying he wanted to run towards the family when others are running away from the family.

He said he essentially want to wrap his arms around the Duggar family as they try to heal. This is also being viewed through a business prism because TLC was loudly condemned last night for showing reruns of the show, a whole marathon of the show while this was becoming national news that may have contributed to the decision to take it off the schedule for the foreseeable future.

The show is not canceled. It's only off the schedule for now. The cameras were not planning on being there this weekend, for example, to film the show. The question now is whether the cameras will ever be back to film the show.

It's going to be very, very difficult given the reports that among the victims were some of the siblings.

COOPER: It is interesting, Dr. Saltz, the fascination with this family and sort of the praised that this family gets, and I understand from the religious aspect.

[20:40:07] But for parents to have 19 kids, I don't care how great you are as a parent, that's a lot of pressure in terms of actually taking care of 19 kids.

DR. GAIL SALTZ, PSYCHIATRIST: We like today it's quality over quantity when it comes to parenting and there is an aspect to that, but at the end of the day, you have to be to spend a certain amount of time with each child.

And when you have 19, that's very, very difficult to do and what ends up happening I think often in huge families is older siblings end up parenting or co-parenting the younger ones. That's a real problem if you have someone who has an issue going on.

That's why you need intervention. Not just legally, but psychiatrically and for the victims who frankly are much more likely to suffer depression, anxiety, and relationship difficulties. We know this of abuse victims. Without intervention, I would really be concerned about them going forward.

COOPER: And also without a form of justice. I mean, often times victims want a form of justice. Survivors of abuse want to see --

SALTZ: They want to be believed and validated. When the family keeps it a secret and sequesters it, that is not validation of their victimization and that in a way is re-traumatizing.

COOPER: You know, Brian, part of me wonders if this story is getting so much attention because of the allegations of hypocrisy that Josh Duggar works for an organization, Family Research Council, which, you know, time and time again has suggested that gay people are more likely to be child molesters even though statistically that is not the case.

STELTER: I think you are absolutely right about that. That is dominating the online conversation around this story. The word hypocrisy came up right away and continued to come up again and again.

We saw Josh Duggar step down from the Family Research Council and we saw the group distance itself from him. There were lots of photos with him shaking hands with various presidential candidates and that's one of the reasons why this is going to linger as an issue I think in the days to come.

COOPER: Areva, I mean, I haven't heard many people raising concerns about recidivism, which you know, I'm wondering if politically if this was somebody else or from a different socioeconomic background, if they would be looking at it through the same lens.

MARTIN: I think everything about this story would be different, Anderson, if this was not Josh Duggar, if it wasn't the family that's made millions for a network because of their reality television show.

You know, we hear the wife saying she knew about this and she is standing by her husband that's all fine, but these victims were the victims of a crime.

We can't lose sight of that and we can't talk about this in any other way than to talk about the crime that was committed. Now the statute of limitation may have run in Arkansas, but still there needs to be an investigation about how it slipped through the cracks.

Why wasn't it prosecuted? Why wasn't he held accountable for these despicable acts so this doesn't happen to any other victims and that victims feel free, the comfort of knowing that the system is going to work in the way that it should, which is to prosecute and punish perpetrators of sexual crimes.

COOPER: We'll see what happens in the days ahead. Areva Martin, I appreciate you being on. Dr. Gail Saltz, Brian Stelter as well, thank you.

Just ahead tonight, a Baltimore police officer says that moral in the force is, quote, "in the sewer" and the reason their arrests are plunging and murders are surging is because officers are refusing to follow their marching orders.

Plus, an update on that Florida dentist accused of performing unnecessary and painful procedures on children, and making himself millions of dollars of doing it. Tonight, there is a new development in the story.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:47:28] COOPER: Well, the death of Freddie Gray has put a glaring spotlight on Baltimore and his police force and tonight one of those officers is speaking out about what they say is a backlash within the ranks.

As you know, a grand jury has now indicted the six officers changed in Gray's death. If convicted they could spent decades in prison. In the months since Gray's death, arrest in Baltimore have plunge and murders have actually surged.

The officer you are about to hear from who asked us to obscure their face and voice because of fear of retribution said those numbers are no accident. Here's what the officer told our Miguel Marquez.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: And more, where is morale for police officers?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In the sewers. It's down. It's the worse of the worse I've ever seen in my career.

MARQUEZ (voice-over): A Baltimore police officer some dozen years on the force said the spike in murders and gun crimes here is the direct result of a coordinate police work slowdown.

(on camera): Why do you think that there is a great increase in the murder rate, in the number of shootings in this town?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Officers stopped being proactive.

MARQUEZ: Not patrolling?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Not talking to community. Stop being proactive, I believe is the direct result from officers holding back.

MARQUEZ (voice-over): With the murder rate skyrocketing, up 47 percent this year, guns being fired here in even bigger numbers. Non- fatal shootings up at least 66 percent. The killings and the shootings not limited to West Baltimore where riots broke out last month.

Areas across the entire city have seen the most serious crimes on the rise. At a recent gathering limited to local press only, Commissioner Batts acknowledge an issue with some officers exists, but claimed it was only in Baltimore's Western Police District where they were experiencing the problems.

COMMISSIONER ANTHONY BATTS, BALTIMORE POLICE: We are making good arrests. We are doing searches and seizures. So throughout the city, the organization is doing well. What I have a concern about and talking to officers, the epicenter of the riots in the Western District.

MARQUEZ: But this officer who isn't in Baltimore's Western District said they lost confidence in their leadership who are not protecting them saying cops citywide hear one thing in daily briefings then do another.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: After shift call, we get together and say again, "We're just going to back each other up and answer 911 calls from our dispatcher.

MARQUEZ (on camera): So no matter what commanders tell you --

COOPER: That's it. It goes in one ear, out the other.

MARQUEZ (voice-over): The officer says police here are only responding to 911 calls. No walking beats. No engaging the community. No investigation. Just responding, the bare minimum of policing and then only the most serious calls get immediate attention.

[20:50:05] Some calls says the officer goes hours with no response and when police do respond, it will only go in pairs, sometimes three and four officers per call, their own safety is the priority.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As officers, you say we have to get each other's back.

MARQUEZ: The officer worked the recent protests, looting, and violence. The darkest day this cop has seen. On one score the officer agrees with the protesters.

(on camera): What do you think about their claims is right?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, Baltimore City has a certain mentality. Stat driven. They want arrests. They don't care too much about moving violations. They want arrests. They believe arresting people is the way of destroying crime.

MARQUEZ (voice-over): This officer who is now looking for other jobs said things are now so bad only one thing will change everything.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We do not believe in Commissioner Batts or his command staff. We want them to go.

MARQUEZ: Miguel Marquez, CNN, Baltimore, Maryland.

(END VIDEOTAPE) COOPER: Commissioner Batts is under fire from several fronts. Earlier this month, the U.S. Justice Department launched an investigation from the police force.

Commissioner Anthony Batts joins us now. I appreciate you taking the time to talk to us. I want to get to the murder rate and this alleged work slowdown in a moment.

But first, again, this was one police officer. This person, man or woman, I can't say, they saying that they've lost confidence in your ability to lead calling for your resignation. Do you feel that's representative of a lot of police officers on your force?

BATTS: I think this organization has a lot of people with different opinions. You have an organization that I feel that there are some officers who are hurt. I think there is officers here who feel that they are not supported.

I think there are officers here who are just in a time of being disoriented as a whole. I don't think there is only one issue that's taking place within the police organization that is going through a shaking.

I think officers are realizing they are going through a transition that a significant change has to take place within the police department as well as the city is going through a shaking time.

Do you have some officers that may not be pleased with me? I am a reformed chief of police or police commissioner. I came here at the direction of the mayor to make changes and we are going through those changes over the last two years.

I think what officers usually want you to do is no matter what they do, stand up for them and say I support my guys. I think the police officers in Baltimore have the hearts of lions. You have a lot of good police officer who is do a very good job and are very dedicated.

But also I have no problem in identifying officers that are problematic in addressing them.

COOPER: Let me ask you about the numbers, I mean, murders and other crimes are way up since the Freddie Gray incident. In the last 30 days alone, I think Baltimore has seen 39 murders and arrests are actually way down before the Freddie Gray incident.

The average number weekly arrest was 626. Last week, I understand the number was down to 358, if I'm not mistaken. How do you explain that? Is there a work slowdown from Baltimore PD?

BATTS: Well, I hope not. I hope that my guys will have stronger characters and how do you find out and realize. As my guys have strong character. I hope they realize that what their actions are and the fact that the community needs them.

When I'm going through the roll calls, what I share with them, Anderson, is the fact that remember why you came on to this job and why you put that gun belt on, why you put that badge on and why you wear that uniform every single day for the grandmothers and the babies and the little ones.

Because you have some degree of uncertainty here within the organization, some officers have asked about articulable reasonable suspicion. Do they need more training in it? Do they need to know how to articulate it and do they feel comfortable with that?

And so we are giving them training to make sure that they feel safe with that. They are comfortable with that. We've had peer counselors in this entire week because officers needed to get steam off and share their frustrations.

So for the things that we can that are tangible, we are listening to them and we are inspiring them. We are reminding them why they do the job that they do every single day because this city counts on them.

I hope that there is not a slowdown and what kind of message that sends to the community and to the government if that's the case.

COOPER: Because I mean, the numbers certainly do seem to indicate some sort of a slowdown. The officer is saying that the police in Baltimore are only responding to 911 calls and not walking the beat.

There is no community engagement, really no investigation. Just doing the bare minimum of policing and I think you yourself have said that in the western district, you have to send in multiple officers to respond even to just regular calls.

BATTS: Yes, there is an array of different things that are occurring. I think when you guys started off, you said that I said that there was only violence in the western and that's not the truth or accurate.

[20:55:01] I said the western is leading our city in the level of violence. Even during the week that we had -- the civil unrest, we had nine homicides that took place in Western.

Now when we investigated those shootings, they were connected to what we believe as gang-related activities. It wasn't by happen stance that those homicides took place.

We had four or five people shot yesterday in a shooting, which is a historic gang warfare that had taken place. Our numbers are soaring because we have groupings of shooting, people -- multiple people shot in groupings, which are leading us to believe there is gang nexus to the shootings that have taken place.

Now with the shooting yesterday, those officers came and engaged. As soon as that happened, you have officers on the scenes. They chase the bad guys into the house. They were able to take them into custody.

What I do know is that officers have taken off ten plus guns off the streets in the last five days. They have done multiple search warrants. They did search warrants in the western. People were taken to jail. So there are officers out there who are making impacts and contacts, but there are probably officers who are frustrated, who are angry. We have to work through this and they have to get back on the job and be professional to get the job done.

COOPER: Commissioner Batts, I know it's tough to talk about it. I appreciate you come out and answering questions. Thank you very much. Appreciate it.

BATTS: Thank you, sir.

COOPER: Just ahead -- take care. A major update on that Florida dentist, who we reported on earlier this week, who's enraged dozens of parents after allegedly harming their kids while bilking Medicaid.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)