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Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees

New Information Today in the Josh Duggar Molestation Story; Newly Released Documents Shed More Light on Quadruple Homicide; Police Commissioner Says Drugs Stolen During Riots Are Fueling Crime Surge in Baltimore; Secret Deaths: Another Baby Dies at Florida Hospital. Aired 8-9 ET

Aired June 03, 2015 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[20:00:08] ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: Good evening. Thanks for watching.

We begin tonight with breaking news in the story that has not stopped producing new and frankly surprising developments since it began with the shooting of a suspect armed with a combat knife outside of a CVS pharmacy in a Boston neighborhood.

First we learned that he had been under 24-hours surveillance by the terrorism task force. Then, that authorities suspected he had been radicalized by ISIS, then that he had an alleged accomplice, then, that he was allegedly plotting to kill local police officers. And late today, we learned that authorities believed he also (INAUDIBLE) to behead a well-known New Yorker, anti-Islam activist Pamela Geller and that is far from the only development

Tonight, two reports now, starting with Alexandra Field.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ALEXANDRA FIELD, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Police say he pulled a military style knife on him and that is why they shot and killed Usama Rahim. But the 26-year-old posed a threat to law enforcement even before that deadly encounter in the CVS parking lot.

According to documents, reveal the man under 24-hour surveillance from the joint terrorism task force had recently purchased three military knives and a sharpener on the Internet. Weapons to be used, prosecutors believe, in a plot to behead an unnamed target. But over time authorities say the plot formed by the man inspired by ISIS, changed.

Rahim said in a text to an associate, I can't wait that long. I can't wait that long, man. He later writes, I'm going to be on vacation right here in Massachusetts. I'm just going to go after them, those boys in blue. Because it is the easiest target and the most common is the easiest for me.

Vacation, code for jihad according to investigators, boys in blue in obvious reference to law enforcement, those messages sent, police say, to 25-year-old David Wright now charged in federal court with conspiracy and attempting to obstruct justice by destroying a cell phone.

On Tuesday, investigators spent hours searching his home, also searching a Warwick, Rhode Island home. Officials have said it is related to the investigation, they haven't said how. But police are now explaining why they took action outside the CVS, confronting a man they've spent years watching.

WILLIAM EVAN, COMMISSIONER, BOSTON POLICE: Our officers went out there to only question the individual. We never anticipated what his reaction would be. And that he would pull out obviously a military knife. At that point, the video clearly shows these four or five officers backtracking away from the suspect as he's coming at them.

FIELD: Surveillance video that captured the deadly shooting hasn't been shown to the public. Instead, civil rights and Islamic community leaders were invited to privately view it, in an effort to clear up misinformation, police say, after Rahim's brother posted online that Usama had been shot three times in the back at a bus stop while on the phone with his father.

DARRELL WILLIAMS, CEO, URBAN LEAGUE OF EASTERN MASSACHUSETTS: Based on the video that we I would say 150 percent collaborate with what the commission that had just stated, that there was an approach to -- approach to the suspect to talk to him. The officers were backing up what as I saw, and then things went down, as you know already know.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: Alexandra Field joins us now from Boston with more. So I know you just spoke to people who knew this guy, Rahim, what are they saying about all of this?

FIELD: Well, Anderson, we've learned that he worked as a security guard. We are told that at the time of his death he was living with his mother who is a nurse and two of his brothers. I spoke to two imams who say they have known him since he was a young boy. They say he mosque with some regularity. They described him as being observant. They say the family was devout. But they say they have no recollection of him ever expressing any ideas, any beliefs that they felt were extreme or radical, Anderson. We know that authorities believe that they have reason to think otherwise. They were, of course, following this man for years before that encounter.

COOPER: Alexandra, we appreciate the update.

Now, as we said at the top, the alleged target list was not limited to the Boston area nor just to everyday members of law enforcement.

More now on the New York angle and Pamela Geller, Pamela Brown joins us with that.

So what do you know about it?

PAMELA BROWN, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, this is what we are learning, Anderson, from law enforcement official. That the activist controversial activist Pamela Geller was the target of this beheading plot, among Rahim, David Wright who was arrested and showed up in court today and a third individual.

Apparently according to law enforcement, the three met on a beach in Rhode Island just this past Sunday to discuss this beheading plot, to go up to New York and behead Pamela Geller, according to officials. And they we learned that yesterday morning Rahim apparently changed his mind, officials say and called Wright and said he didn't want to wait any more and that he wanted to kill police officers.

Now we did reach out to Pamela Geller and she said, she told us that she hadn't heard about the threat. As we know, Anderson, she's been the subject of many threats because she is the woman who, as we know, organized the Mohammed cartoon drawing event in Garland, Texas, where there was an attempted terrorist attack. So this is not the first time she has been threatened. She said she hadn't heard about this one. And she also said that this is a showdown for American freedom -- Anderson.

[20:05:28] COOPER: Is there any indication that he also wanted to behead the police officers that he was targeting in Boston?

BROWN: So what we're being told, Anderson, right now at this stage in the investigation, there isn't necessarily concrete evidence he wanted to behead the police officers, but that basically investigators believe that he wanted to do that. That he may have wanted to do that because he had the military style knife. He allegedly wanted to behead Pamela Geller and he is a follower of ISIS who we know have been pushing this and have used this tactic against others. So I think investigators believe that but at this stage in the investigation, there isn't concrete evidence to prove that that is what he wanted to do -- Anderson.

COOPER: All right, Pam Brown, I appreciate it.

Juliette Kayyem is the former homeland security adviser for the commonwealth, Massachusetts. She currently teaches at Harvard Kennedy School of Government. She is also CNN national security analyst and Bob Baer is a former CIA officer, also a CNN national security analyst. It is good to see you both.

So Bob, the fact that this suspect wanted to behead somebody, it has got to be, especially troubling for law enforcement to give how relatively easy it is to pull off that kind of attack.

BOB BAER, CNN INTELLIGENCE AND SECURITY ANALYST: Well exactly, Anderson. With a knife like that, you can take down a police officer. You attack them from the back in their cars, any number of ways. Those knives are very easy to get. They are not registered. Low technology is an Islamic state, you know, tactic and don't forget the propaganda value of killing a police officer would enormous in this country. The reverberations would be incredible. And this was, for them, an important attack. And also we should forget that they don't mind the attacker dying, it is an act of martyrdom. So there is two parts to it killing the policemen and dying afterwards. COOPER: It is really interesting, Juliette, because it is - I mean,

in some ways as Bob was saying, very low tech. It is a very simple kind of attack. But the kind of repercussions of it would be huge. We saw this in the United Kingdom when a British soldier was killed, pretty much beheaded on the streets by attackers who then were videotaped right afterward talking to a video camera.

JULIETTE KAYYEM, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: That is exactly right. Look, these kinds of terrorists or this kind of terrorism is really looking for convenience and amplifying their message and killing a cop or beheading a cop is clearly what they had in mind. In fact, the affidavit probably makes it a little bit clearer than what we've heard publicly, the extent to which of beheading was part of the plan. There is some illusions of conversation between Rahim and Wright in which they sort of mimic what occurs in the ISIS videos.

And so, that for me looking at this from the outside also explains why there was so much immediacy Monday and Tuesday to approach Rahim. That on Sunday, they heard the guys on the beach saying we can't wait any longer. And then they heard that Tuesday and Wednesday was going to be the date. Now, things start to make sense in terms of the chronology of why they approached them Tuesday morning.

COOPER: Juliette, I don't want to give away sort of any operational details, so use your judgment on this. But in terms of the kind of following that would have been done on this person, and they said they, you know, he had been under surveillance for a long period of time.

KAYYEM: Right. So surveillance is always going to be over inclusive. So there are hundreds if not thousands depending on which joint terrorism task force you are talking about where there is some sort of hint, you know. You start these investigations with information a lot less than with satisfy an affidavit or an excuse me an indictment.

What we don't know from the affidavit right now is what pieces of information they had that would have led them to really focus on Rahim with 24/7 surveillance. Because as Bob and I have both been say, it is rare, it is expensive, it is high resource, you are taking people away from other investigations. So they clearly were very worried as they rightfully should be about the eminency of an attack that might have only had one victim but would have amplified throughout the country.

COOPER: And Bob, we've seen, you know, attempted attacks on police officers in New York City, several in the last couple of months, several just disturbed individuals and some may have been more than that. Do you believe this kind of an attack in the United States is inevitable?

[20:09:56] BAER: Anderson, I do think it is inevitable. You have to look at the conflict in the Middle East. It is getting worst every day. We are held responsible for the violence in Iraq and as well as Syria, in Yemen as well. The Sunni community in general is under siege. And you find these lone wolves that may not have direct contact with the Islamic state but they certainly feel threatened. It is an existential threat for them. And way they strike out in using in this case this precise violence against police officers or Pamela Geller. And I think that, you know, we're seeing more and more of this every day and I think it is inevitable that one of the guys is going to stay off the radar and not text and manage to hurt somebody.

COOPER: Bob Baer, Juliette Kayyem, I appreciate you being on tonight.

Quick reminder, make sure you set your DVR. You can watch 360 whenever you want.

Coming up next, the Duggars speak out about how they reacted when their son confessed in molesting his sisters and somebody else. His new details come to life about just how many times he actually did this and how many times he confessed. How many children he may have molested and how very, very young one of his alleged victims was.

Later, we have just got out best look yet at the police theory of what happened before this Washington, D.C. home was torched with those four murder victims inside. What newly filed court records reveal, when we continue.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:15:00] COOPER: We have a big dose of new information today in the Josh Duggar molestation story. None of it is pretty, some of it utterly sickening. All of it raising a lot of serious questions.

A new police report from a sheriff's department in Washington County, Arkansas, the bottom line, the eldest child of the reality star, Jim Bob and Michelle Duggar told his father about sexual abusing four of his sisters, one of whom was just five years old. Today his parents spoke with FOX News' Megyn Kelly about their reaction at the time.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHELLE DUGGAR, JOSH DUGGAR'S MOTHER: There is so much grief in our hearts. I think as parents, we felt we are failures, you know. Here we try to raise our kids to do and try to know what is right and yes, one of our children made some really bad choices. And I think as a parent we were just devastated.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: Well devastated as they were, they seem not to have taken the kind of steps you are actually supposed to deal with their son, heal their daughters, protects others outside of the family or to answer to the criminal justice system.

Two guests tonight have a lot to say about that. But first Randi Kaye with the new and the troubling details.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): On three separate occasions, Josh Duggar confessed to his father, he had molested his sisters. Three times he told Jim Bob Duggar what he had done. That's according to a police report obtained by "In Touch" magazine.

RICK EGUSQUIZA, WEST COAST EDITOR, IN TOUCH MAGAZINE: According to the police report, Joshua was crying. His dad brought him in and he was also there with the church elder.

KAYE: This is the police report from the sheriff's office in Washington County, Arkansas, where the Duggars live. The details are disturbing. Documents reveal that Josh was 15 years old in March of 2003 when he molested his five-year-old sister. And it didn't just happen once. Police say he touched her breasts and vaginal area while reading her a book on his lap. Another time, the police report said he put his hand up her skirt in the laundry room.

EGUSQUIZA: One of the sisters remembers the blanket being removed and she went to her father and said something about it.

KAYE: And it wasn't just his five-year-old sister he victimized. The police report says Josh Duggar admitted back in 2002 and 2003 to sexually molesting four of his sisters, plus a family friend.

Jim Bob told police that in March of 2002 Josh told him that he had been sneaking in his sister's room at night and had been touching his sisters on the breast and vaginal areas while they were sleeping. In all Josh Duggar is involved in at least seven instances of sexual molestation. And his parents, they sat on the information instead of reporting it to police.

In fact, despite Josh Duggar telling his parents what he had done, the police report said the Duggars weighted at least 16 months before reporting their son's behavior to authorities, 16 months.

What is still unclear is whether or not Josh Duggar or his sisters ever got any professional help after this abuse occurred. Jim Bob Duggar has said his son was sent to some sort of treatment program to get help. But his wife, Michelle, later told Springdale police in Arkansas that he had actually just been sent to a family friend.

Eventually, the Duggars did send Josh to get counseling from state trooper Joseph Hutchins who now happens to be serving 56 years in prison for child porn. Hutchins told "In Touch" from jail that Jim Bob Duggar had told him about just one case of sexual abuse. The new police report said Josh admitted to the trooper what he had done.

Meanwhile, by the time 2006 rolled around and police started investigating the allegations, the statute of limitations had run out.

Randi Kaye, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: So all he got was a stern talking to from a now convicted child pornographer. Josh Duggar confessed three times as his parents waiting almost a year-and-a-half before notifying authorities and the whole notion that no one may face any kind of justice.

A lot to talk about, joining us now is Dr. Drew Pinsky, host of HLN's "Dr. Dew" and attorney and children's advocate Areva Martin.

So Dr. Drew, the fact that Josh Duggar confessed on three separate occasions to his father to multiple acts of sexual molestation, confessing and then doing it again, confessing then doing it again, and the Duggars waited 16 months before contacting authorities, I got to say, it's unbelievable.

DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST, DR. DREW: Yes, it is unbelievable. And you saw on that little footage there that it is very difficult for a parent to come to terms with this. Of course, it is painful, of course, you feel like a failure, that is when you run to professional help to get this taken care of to mitigate the damages.

COOPER: Also to protect your other children.

PINSKY: To protect the children and not only that but the children that may have been traumatized by the experience so far. Let's remind ourselves, what is in the police report is only what has been admitted to. We don't know how much more went out. We don't know what went on since or before what was admitted to and there may have been other victims involved. And by the way, all the while, these poor victims are being required to stay with the perpetrator, live with the perpetrator and being told that if they feel bad or ashamed or uncomfortable or have feelings they don't know how to handle, it is fine because God is in control because the perpetrator has had a stern talking to which will do absolutely nothing.

[20:20:19] COOPER: No, a stern talking to and dome some construction work with a family friend, Areva. I mean, what is not in this police report also is anything about any counseling that the victims in this -- I mean children were given. Because it doesn't - it sounds like all of the focus is on, you know, God, you know, the mistakes poor Joshua Duggar made. It is nothing about his victims, his sisters, as young as 5 years old and as family friend.

AREVA MARTIN, ATTORNEY: That is correct, Anderson. And even as I sit here and watch the parents again recount what happened, they use these words, Josh made some poor choices. And you know, I was talking with you about this last week and it is insulting to keep talking about this as if they are not crimes.

What Josh did was a crime under Arkansas law. What the parents did by failing to prevent the abuse and failing to report it to police is also a crime. So when we talk about the statute of limitations running, there are actually two statutes involved. It is the statute that governs Josh's conduct and then also a statute that governs the parents' conduct.

And fortunately for them, they let both of those statutes run. So now, we are talking about Josh as not being provided because neither the parents nor josh can be prosecuted. But I don't think we shouldn't lose sight of the fact that there still needs to be an investigation because there may be more victims out there that will come forth and maybe the statute has been told because there are some exceptions under the Arkansas law for those victims. COOPER: Right. I mean, Dr. Drew, I have to say, if you were sexual

abusing a five-year-old child while the child is asleep or sitting on your lap or however it was done, I believe while sitting on his lap, if you were sneaking into your sister's rooms repeatedly and molesting them, that doesn't go away, does it?

PINSKY: No. It does not go away.

COOPER: I mean, that is the kind of behavior --

PINSKY: No.

COOPER: It is not just that is a bad choice.

PINSKY: It is not a choice. It is a behavior that results from something very serious that requires very serious treatment. And you were just showing footage alongside of our images where there are children, young children sitting in his lap. It actually really made me upset to see the images. Who knows what else has happened since then.

And I'll tell you what, Anderson, as I read the police report, you could see the department of social services sort of gearing up to intervene on behalf of the children. And the Duggars actually got in the way of that. So the children never got the social, it seems like, the social services never got a chance to do their job. So, really, as far as you can tell from the reports we have so far, these poor victims have had nothing done for them. This is terribly serious mental health problems. This is not about choices, this is not about religion, this is the law and this is serious mental health disorder.

COOPER: Right. And these are crimes. I want to play again, Areva, that sound bite that mentioned just in case for our viewers, the Megyn Kelly sound bite.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DUGGAR: There is so much grief in our hearts. I think as parents, we felt we are failures, you know. Here we try to raise our kids to do and try to know what is right and yes, one of our children made some really bad choices. And I think as a parent we were just devastated.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: The other thing -- I don't believe, you know, that if that mom was looking at some other family where a teenage boy molested his sisters and a family friend repeatedly and molested a five-year-old child, that she would term it as that young man made some bad choices. I mean, they would be point the fingers saying throw the book at that person. But it is a different standard of justice when it is, you know, when you are wealthy, when you are famous, when it is (INAUDIBLE).

PINSKY: And to be fair, Anderson, to be fair, as a parent, let's be fair. I mean, it is terribly painful. They are griever. They did or were doing their best. I understand that. That is a real -- COOPER: Yes. But you know what, I'm sorry, if you have 19 kids, you

can't be a good parent.

PINSKY: I'm with you on that.

COOPER: If you can give 19 kids the kind of parental attention that they need.

PINSKY: I specifically could not.

COOPER: I'm sorry. Go ahead, Avera.

MARTIN: I don't know if I think they're being great parents or good parents even because all I hear in the whole story is about what they were doing, you know, to raise their kids and about Josh. We haven't heard anything about help for these victims or justice for these victims. And in a typical case like this if the department of children services comes in, they are going to take the kid out of that home. He should not be in that home and allowed to remain around those children, the family friends who are coming over to that house. Everyone was in danger being around this one man.

PINSKY: Hey, Avera, what about the parents of the family friends so to speak who was molested? Where are they in all of this?

MARTIN: my God, that family --

[20:25:00] COOPER: The other church members and the other pastors who actually knew had this information and chose not to go to authorities and during -- in the police report.

MARTIN: Who are mandatory reporters. We should point out that clergymen are mandatory reporters and they had a legal obligation to report what was told to them by the Duggar family about this molestation and they didn't do it. So these victims were failed by their church, they were failed by the system, they were failed by the state trooper who didn't investigate this matter but gave, you know, Josh this stern talking to. That is not his job. They need to turn this over to the district attorney.

COOPER: We have to leave it there.

Areva Martin, appreciate it. Dr. Drew Pinsky, as well.

Coming up next, new court documents into the D.C. mansion murders investigation reveal how they believe the suspect got into the home and a lot more tension is now being paid to the assistant who brought that was called to bring the money to the home.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:29:49] COOPER: Evidence of a break-in, new details about a possible sequence of the crime, the name of a person of increasing interest to authorities, all of them emerging in the investigation into the murders of Savva Savopoulos, his wife, Amy, their son Philip and her housekeeper, Veralicia Figueroa held captive and killed at their home in an upscale district neighborhood. We got a look today a newly filed documents.

Joe Johns now with the key points.

[20:30:00]

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JOE JOHNS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: In newly released court records police seemed to lay out how they believe the crime that ended with this fire began. With the break-in of the Savopoulos home. Investigators say they found evidence suggesting whoever held the family and their housekeeper hostage before shaking them down for money may not have been invited in. Court documents say side doors on the house had, quote, a single broken window pane. The door is broken near the lock and a shoe or boot print is visible on the exterior, suggesting forced entry.

Tonight D.C. police are still holding 34-year-old Darrin Wint who was arrested two weeks ago while apparently on the run. Court records say, in addition Wint's DNA found on a pizza crust at the scene, they found blood of at least one of the victims on Wint's shoe. Wint remains the lone suspect, but police say they believe he had help.

HARRY HOUCK, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: I'm sure that the police, although they are tight lipped, have some other suspects involved that they believe are involved in this case and they are trying to track information down to link them to Wint and that is why it is probably taking some time.

JONES: Court documents also suggest investigators continue to be interested in Savopoulos' assistant who allegedly dropped off $40,000 in cash at the family's home in the hours before the fire. For the first time tonight police are identifying that man Jordan Wallace who was hired in recent month as a driver for Mr. Savopoulos. Police say after Wallace changed details of his story surrounding the drop-off of that money they got a court order to retrieve his telephone records.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: And Joe joins us now with more. So, I understand, authorities are really focusing on the cell phones of the family. Why is that?

JOHNS: Right, Anderson. The cell phones of Mr. and Mrs. Savopoulos and their housekeeper were not recovered after the fire. Investigators would like to determine where and when those phones were used in the event they were stolen by the killers. They want to get call, detail records, tower locations and other clues to lead them to the phones. Call logs, e-mail data, you name it. There are about 18 different kinds of information the authorities can get for cellular telephones after they get a court order, Anderson.

COOPER: All right, Joe, I appreciate the update. Thank you.

Just ahead, new video of looters in action inside Baltimore pharmacies in April. The police commissioner says the stolen drugs are fueling a crime surge, but pharmacy owner said they can't get police to look at these security videos.

Plus, another baby has died after open heart surgery at the Florida hospital that experts say doesn't have enough experience to actually do the surgeries safely. We're keeping them honest.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:31:45]

COOPER: Tonight Baltimore police commissioner Anthony Batts is linking the city's recent surge in crime to the April riots that erupted after Freddie Gray's funeral. 27 pharmacies were looted. Listen to what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ANTHONY BATTS, BALTIMORE POLICE COMMISSIONER: There is enough narcotics on the streets of Baltimore to keep it intoxicated for a year. That amount of drugs has thrown off the balance on the streets of Baltimore. We are seeing the repercussions of these crimes throughout the community. Individuals are getting high to a greater degree and at a greater pace than any time before. Criminals are selling those stolen drugs. There are turf wars happening which are leading to violence and shootings in our city.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: He said there is enough narcotics on the streets of Baltimore to keep it intoxicated for a year. That is quite a statement. And "The Baltimore Sun" has obtained new surveillance video showing looters in action at some of those pharmacies. Take a look. You can see them in plain sight grabbing drugs off shelves, at one point or at one pharmacy looters made off with a 300 pound safe filled with oxycodone, according to the paper. All of it caught on security cameras. But more than a month later pharmacy owners tell "The Baltimore Sun" that police have been ignoring their requests to report the missing drugs and have yet to actually even watch these surveillance videos. Joining me now is "Baltimore Sun" reporter Mark Puente. Also, CNN political commentator Van Jones and CNN law enforcement analyst and retired NYPD detective Harry Houck. So, Mark, have the police given you any reason for the fact that they didn't respond to this pharmacy owners request to report these missing drugs and look at these videos?

MARK PUENTE, "BALTIMORE SUN": Well we asked them last Friday have they seen these videos. They said no. The Baltimore police and the Drug Enforcement Administration confirmed that there is still a certain amount of pharmacies that they haven't went to. They said they were backed up and they would get to them, eventually. They've increased the number to 27 as the commissioner said today. But talking to the pharmacy owners last week, they were concerned because of the violence and they know other drugs are missing and they are starting to get calls from people in the neighborhoods who found their drugs on the streets with their names on the bags.

COOPER: And Mark, do you believe that - or how much of this rise in crime do you think is actually fueled by the drugs? Can one really make a linkage?

PUENTE: Well, that would be speculation on my part. We're going by what the police commissioner said today, the D.A. said last week gangs had a plan to do this and had a calculated move. Council members who represent those neighborhoods believe it's fueled by these drugs. The homicide in May was the highest the city has since seen the early '70s. So, you put it all together, it's much units of drugs that are on the street, and it does make sense.

COOPER: Harry, the spike in crime, the president of the Baltimore police union says it is at least in part because of the police in Baltimore are quote, more afraid of going to jail for doing their jobs properly than they are of getting shot on duty. Do you believe trepidation among the rank and file could be behind - or partly behind the rise in crime?

HOUCK: Well, I'm sure it could be partly behind the rise in crime there. But, you know, I can't dispute Chief Batts and what he's saying. He's down there. And he knows what's going on.

So, the police officers are indeed the ones I'm talking to, are holding back because they are afraid. They saw what happened to these three officers in Baltimore. And they are afraid that that if they act proactively and maybe stopping another drug dealer on the corner, something like that, and he resists arrest and something bad happens, then they are susceptible to going to jail.

[20:40:10]

COOPER: Van, there are people who look at the spike in crime in Baltimore, as well as spikes, murders in New York shootings in New York, St. Louis, and point fingers at the protests and the protesters, saying they'd created an atmosphere that is hostile to police, and that that has ramifications. do you believe that?

VAN JONES, CNN COMMENTATOR: I don't. It's very frustrating, because I don't understand why the black community has to choose between police abuse on the one side and then police neglect on the other side. We just want effective, lawful policing. I don't see why that should be so hard for us to get.

I think it is very important to point out that you do have a new reality for law enforcement. You do now have the people who have the cell phones, they are recording things. It will take a while for law enforcement to get used to that. It's also going to take a while for people in the community to understand that just because something doesn't look right to you on a video camera, doesn't mean it is unlawful. So we are in a new period. We are in a new moment. But I would think it would be shocking to hear that you have law enforcement officers who are literally stepping back and not doing their job because they are somehow afraid they are going to look bad on camera.

HOUCK: They are doing their job.

JONES: The vast majority of law enforcement will do whatever it takes to keep our community safe, and I think we should stop insulting police and pretend they're not going to do their job because of a cell phone.

HOUCK: In order for police officers to do their job, they need the backing by their government and the city they are working in. Also, there are two ways to reduce crime in a city. It's not only being reactive, but by being proactive. If you create an environment where a police officer doesn't feel that being proactive is conducive to him keeping his job or maybe going to jail, you might have some police officers holding back a little bit there.

COOPER: Mark -- Go ahead, Van.

JONES: I don't understand why you're saying that. You only -- at this point this whole wave of protests we've had now for almost a year, not one police officer has been sentenced to prison. You had a few who were arrested because somebody wound up dead in their custody. I think that is a good thing. You had one who was arrested because he shot a man in the back running away, and none of these officers have been sentenced to prison. Why are we acting like cops--

HOUCK: Come on. They haven't gone to trial yet, Van. That is why they haven't gone to prison yet.

JONES: We literally have a tiny handful of officers that have been arrested.

(CROSSTALK)

HOUCK: You don't think you are feeding into this also, Van, by what you are saying, nobody has gone to prison yet? Come on, we've got a system where these guys have got to go to trial yet, and be found guilty or not guilty. OK? I don't think you are helping by making those kind of remarks.

COOPER: And Mark, your paper, "The Baltimore Sun," in an editorial recently, they said they don't believe it is unreasonable to start asking questions about leadership in a city having this kind of spike in crime. Does this come down do you think to leadership and policy? What do you think is going on here?

PUENTE: Well, that is not for me to speak on the editorial, but there are individuals who are calling on the commissioner to resign. If you point back to what the commissioner said during the Freddie Gray unrest, he looked at the camera and said he is not going anywhere, he is a reformer, he's fired 50 people. The union has tension with the police commissioner. The police union today said they are making requests for all the communication between the top police leaders and city leaders to find out what happened during the unrest and what caused it. You have the police commissioner saying he is asking an outside group to conduct the investigation. So there seems to be a lot of tension in Baltimore no matter what group is there.

COOPER: Yes. No doubt about that. Mark Puente, I appreciate your reporting and being here, thanks. Van Jones, Harry Houck as well. Just ahead, a troubling update on the Florida hospital that continues to perform open heart surgery on babies, even after experts have said its surgeons do not have enough experience to perform the operations safely. Another baby has died. We're keeping them honest.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:47:30]

COOPER: Tonight, disturbing development in a keeping them honest report that we brought to you two nights ago. A Florida hospital doing open heart surgery on babies without enough experience, experts say, to actually do it safely. Between 2011 and 2013, its death rate for open heart surgeries on babies was more than three times the national average, that is according to our calculations. Yet St. Mary's Medical Center in West Palm Beach has kept those deaths secret from parents whose children are facing the same kind of surgeries. That's what parents have told us. Highly respected experts have warned state health officials about the troubles at St. Mary's. A team of outside reviewers has recommended that the hospital actually stop doing complex heart surgeries on babies, but St. Mary's haven't stopped, and now we've learned another baby has died. Our senior medical correspondent Elizabeth Cohen reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN SR. MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Davey Ricardo Brandu (ph), born March 3rd, he died Tuesday. His mother posting on her Facebook page, "luto," Portuguese for morning. Davey was born with a severe heart defect called truncus arteriosis (ph), his mother says. Instead of having two main blood vessels coming out of his heart, Davey had only one. Nationally, 90 percent of babies survive the surgery to correct this defeat. Davey's surgery in March didn't go as well as expected, his mother says, and so he had a second surgery later that month. In April, St. Mary's Medical Center told us the patient is recovering well and the prognosis is good. It is not known why Davey died.

What we do know is this. Last year an expert panel sent in by the state of Florida reviewed the St. Mary's program. The head of the team, Dr. Jeffrey Jacobs, advised St. Mary's to stop doing hearth surgery on babies like Davey, under six months old. But St. Mary's continued, saying it was just a recommendation, not a mandate. Davey is now the ninth baby to die after heart surgery at St. Mary's since the program started in the end of 2011. Amelia Campbell died in 2012 after heart surgery at St. Mary's. Her mother Nneka heard the news about Davey today.

NNEKA CAMPBELL, MOTHER: I feel horrible. I feel saddened. I feel disgusted.

COHEN: She thinks St. Mary's is doing these lucrative surgeries for the money, and wants them to stop.

CAMPBELL: How are you justifying this in your mind? Find something else to do. You're not good at this.

[20:50:00]

COHEN: Using data St. Mary's submitted to the state of Florida, CNN calculates that from 2011 through 2013, the program's mortality rate for pediatric open heart surgeries was 12.5 percent. That's more than three times higher than the national average. Safety experts say St. Mary's does too few pediatric heart surgeries, not getting enough practice to get good at them. The hospital's own data shows that it undertook 27 pediatric open heart surgeries in 2012, 20 in 2013, and just 18 last year.

DR. PETER PRONOVOST, SR. VP, PATIENT SAFETY, JOHNS HOPKINS: These volumes are quite low. Practice makes perfect, or at least makes it better.

COHEN: St. Mary's disputes CNN's calculation of its high mortality rate, but refuses to provide what it considers the correct death rate. In a letter to employees Tuesday, Carbone said over the past year, our mortality rate has been consistent with the national average and does not significantly exceed the mortality rate of other programs, as the CNN story alleges. But the hospital declined to provide CNN any evidence to support that claim. That leaves parents like these infuriated and grieving for their own babies, and for the most recent baby who never left St. Mary's Medical Center following his surgeries.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: So sad. Elizabeth Cohen joins us now. What is the state of Florida doing about this?

COHEN: We reached out to the state of Florida, and we said look, the experts are saying these are very low volumes. And they said, look, we don't regulate the number of surgeries that are done in these hospitals, and they said we continue to monitor St. Mary's to make sure it is following the law. When I read that to parents, they said, look, this isn't the matter of following the law, this is a matter of are they competent to be doing these surgeries, and the parents are very underwhelmed, to say the least, at the state of Florida's response.

COOPER: And how are the parents responding to the CEO's letter?

COHEN: They were disappointed, to say the least. The day that Davey died, they issue a letter saying we support the program and we stand behind our doctor, that's the CEO letter. That didn't seem to be the right tone on the day that a baby died.

COOPER: And in your initial report, you point out the financial incentive that a hospital has to do these surgeries. They can make as much as half a million dollars per surgery.

COHEN: For certain surgeries, it can be half a million dollars. Heart surgeries reimburse very, very well. They are high-tech, a lot of equipment and a lot of people. And the parents say, look, we think they're doing this for the money. These are lucrative surgeries.

COOPER: Elizabeth Cohen. Appreciate the update. Thank you.

Coming up, something to make you smile at the end of a long day. The Ridiculist is next. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:56:40]

COOPER: Time now for the Ridiculist. And tonight we're adding drunk people -- drunk people who -- drunk people who chase after bears with -- oh, shoot. All right. Thank you. Thank you very much. All right. Wow! okay. Wow! thank you very much. Okay. All right. Thank you very much. All right. OK.

Thank you very much. We don't want to start a fire now.

The saddest honking I've ever heard. Light a candle. Thank you. Oh, that smells beautiful. Wow! it smells like the northern woods.

We have a guest on the phone. Who is joining us on the phone?

ANDY COHEN: Coops.

COOPER: It is Andy Cohen and Kelly Ripa.

COHEN: Hey. Kelly and I figured this is the only way we would ever get on CNN.

COOPER: Oh, I doubt that. There will be a scandal some day. Thank you, that is so nice of you to call in. How are you doing?

KELLY RIPA: Anderson, do you remember, it seems like yesterday that I made a birthday video for your 40th? That was what, about 15 or 20 years ago, remember?

COOPER: Yes. It was about 20 years ago. My 40th birthday was 20 -- yes, I'm 60 years old today.

RIPA: Do you remember when I sang to you that romantic ballad?

COOPER: Yes. I do. Thank you so much, it was very sweet. And Andy Cohen, it was your birthday just yesterday.

COHEN: It was. And Kelly and I know how much you love being celebrated for your birthday and made a big deal out of, so we really wanted to call in.

COOPER: Thank you very much. I love my birthday. You guys can't see it, but I was given a cake and lots of Mott's apple sauce to go, which is my new favorite snack.

COHEN: Anderson, I think you should come over to my place after the show, and meet Kelly and I.

COOPER: Ok, I'll do that.

RIPA: That is a good idea.

COOPER: Okay.

COHEN: Are you eating baby food?

COOPER: I am. It is baby food. It is glorified baby food, but they sell it in gyms, so it makes adults feel it is okay to eat baby food. Kelly, we should also point out, it was your son Michael's birthday yesterday.

RIPA: That is right. Andy and Michael have the same birthday and you are born just 24 short hours later. So I feel like I have a lot of Geminis in my life and I love a Gemini. They double the friendship for half the price.

COOPER: That is true. And you never know which one of us will show up, which two sides of the Gemini are going to show up.

RIPA: We're hoping the fun one tonight.

COOPER: Hope so too. Thank you very much for calling in, I appreciate it, guys.

COHEN: OK. Put on your party shoes. See you later.

COOPER: I don't know what party shoes would look like. What happens when you put a balloon in a flame? That is what happens. All right, wow, and it blew out the candles. Happy birthday. Thank you very much, everybody. That does it for us. We'll see you again at 11:00 p.m. Eastern for another edition of "360." "Anthony Bourdain Parts Unknown" starts right now.