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Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees
Donald Trump Gives Out Senator Lindsey Graham's Personal Cell Number; Authorities Say Sandra Bland's Death Being Investigated As A Homicide; Khorasan Group Leader Killed in U.S. Strike; Chattanooga Gunman's Uncle Detained, Questioned in Jordan. Aired 8-9p ET.
Aired July 21, 2015 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[20:00:29] ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: Good evening. Thanks for joining us.
There is breaking news tonight on the death of a woman in jail after police pulled her over for failing to signal. Our first look at the moments leading unto the arrested self.
(VIDEO CLIP PLAYING)
COOPER: Sandra Bland was later found dead in this cell in the Waller County Texas jail. Police say that she hanged herself. Authorities say her death is being investigated like murder. We're going to have a lot more on this a little later on.
But we begin the latest uproar surrounding Donald Trump. It completely overshadowed the entry of a 16th Republican contender for the nomination, Ohio governor John Kasich.
And late today, candidate Jeb Bush had sharp words for the tone he believes will Donald Trump is setting.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JEB BUSH (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We have to appeal to people's higher aspirations, or we'll lose elections over and over and over again. And that's my problem with Mr. Trump.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: His problem, he says, is not necessarily the message but in what he calls quote "the language of divisive ugliness" which brings us to the latest campaigning of South Carolina, home to senator and rival Lindsey Graham who, by the way, has called him a jack ass. Mr. Trump had a reply and it could not be more personal.
More tonight from Dana Bash.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DANA BASH, CNN SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Donald Trump unbound by a barraged by criticism.
DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: They say they didn't like the way that, you know, I'm a little loud. I'm a little too strong. They don't like it.
BASH: The reality TV star with a flair for drama took presidential politics to yet another level.
TRUMP: And I see your senator. What a stiff. What a stiff.
BASH: Responding to fellow Republican candidate Lindsey Graham saying this to CNN.
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: He is becoming a jack ass.
TRUMP: And I watched this idiot Lindsey Graham on television today and he call may jack ass. He is a jack ass.
BASH: Standing in Graham's home state of South Carolina, he retaliated by reading aloud the personal cell phone number.
TRUMP: He gave me his number. And I found the card. I wrote the number down. I don't know it if is right number. Let's try it. 202 --
BASH: We asked why.
Why did you read Lindsey Graham's cell phone number?
TRUMP: So people can call him so he can maybe get something done but he won't be able to.
BASH: Graham now unable to be reached by cell who responded through his campaign manager saying Donald Trump continues to show hourly that he is ill prepared to be commander in-chief.
All this amid a back and forth with Iowa's largest newspaper, "the Des Moines Register," whose editorial board called for him to pull the plug on his bloviating the side show. Trump shot back about the newspaper's sagging sales. He appears to be buoyed by the politics of personal warfare. That and crowds like this.
All told, some 1,100 people in the Maine auditorium and an overflow room Trump visited after the speech. Many in this retirement community waited on line for hours to get in.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He has set of balls. (ph). He is a doer.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think he is terrific because he tells the truth.
BASH: Not everyone who came was a supporter.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He scares me.
BASH: He scares you but you are still here?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. I want to see him. He is a celebrity. BASH: Despite causing so much controversy with comments about John
McCain's war service, some veterans here in military rich South Carolina came to hear him.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He just disappointed me. I wasn't offended, but I was disappointed.
BASH: And yet it's not a deal breaker.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No. Not yet.
BASH: Why is that?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Too far to go. The man has tremendous background. He, obviously, has a great ability to delegate. He can make a decision on the spot but it also gets him in trouble.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BASH: It does also get him in trouble. But the more trouble Donald Trump seems to get in, the more he seems to thrive.
And Anderson, what struck me about being at the event today, and I've been to many campaign rally in my time, was that he had them, really, in the palm of his hand. And you couldn't necessarily tell the traditional way by watching people stand on their feet and scream and cheer like a rally. They were sitting in their seats in their auditorium. Now, granted it was a retirement community but they were mesmerized. You could almost hear a pin drop as they watched what wasn't really a stump speech, it was a one-man show.
COOPER: Fascinating, Dana. Stick around.
I want to bring in CNN political commentator Ana Navarro, she is a Jeb Bush supporter and a close friend also of Marco Rubio. Also GOP strategist and Trump supporter Kevin Paul Scott.
So Ana, I mean, Trump on the campaign trail today, what do you, first of all, make of it? It seem the more criticism he gets, the more forceful his attacks become. And certainly in this latest, you know, "Washington Post"/ABC poll, he is doing well. You know, very well.
[20:05:18] ANA NAVARRO, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: I think Donald Trump adheres to the Henry Ford maxim of it doesn't say what they say about me, as long as they are talking about me. I think he feeds off the attention. I think he is becoming enamored of the process and if possible, even more enamored of himself as he runs for this.
You know, I'm getting really saddened to tell you the truth, by the spectacle, OK. So I think it has become the theater of the absurd. And I think it is - it is just not seemly, you know. We all have to remember at some point that this is running for the presidency of the United States of America. It is the most, the highest office in the land. It is to be commander in chief and I just think it has turned into a spectacle, a reality showing, and look, I get it. I love reality shows. Everything your friend Andy produces, I watch. But when this is the presidency of the United States.
COOPER: Well, Kevin, let me ask but that. Because, I mean, do you believe Trump will continue to do well because voters clearly, at least the voters who come out to see them, many of them want a candidate to stop using talking points and just be frank and kind of speak off the cuff which I mean, I got to say, it is Donald Trump's credit, he doesn't come with a prepared speech that he's reading, that he's given a million times before. I mean, yes, he repeats a lot of the same things over and over. But he's talking off the top of his head, though, sometimes it gets him in trouble, it is refreshing I think for a lot of people who want to go see him.
KEVIN PAUL SCOTT, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Yes, Anderson, precisely. I mean, let's be clear. A lot of what Donald Trump says is completely offensive. But in this day and age where most of these presidential candidates feel more comfortable with a teleprompter and talking points than they do getting out in a town hall meeting, they look at Donald Trump as somebody who is going to tell them exactly what he thinks.
And Anderson, the American people love that. I think the only thing they would love more than what he's doing right now is to see him get a haircut on national television. The American people are loving it.
COOPER: Dana, there is a part of me that wonders if Donald Trump's campaign parallels past candidates. I mean, early on, some people said, well, look, Michelle Bachmann was leading in the polls early on. Sarah Palin, look at her and she was wildly popular. You know, they are individuals that create a very powerful message, you know, on the notion that supposed gaffes weren't really gaffes at all, but rather a kind of Got You media that was after them.
BASH: There are definitely parallels. I mean, let's just look at the fact that on this show, you did several Keeping Them Honest stories. And I participated in some with Michelle Bachmann that were important to hit back on some of the facts or things that she was saying that were not factual. And guess what, she had some pretty successful fundraising off that because most people who already are enamored of somebody like Michele Bachmann, and I say in today's day and age, Donald Trump, the last thing they want is to hear from what they call the main stream media that the person who they like is not doing something right. And I think that that's what those of us in the main stream media or maybe the establishment, whatever you want to call it, might not always understand. And those were the kind of people there today.
Now, granted. As you heard in my piece, some people were there because he is the guy from "the Apprentice" and they want to check out a celebrity who was near their house. But tor the most part that wasn't that. He was striking a cord as someone who was an outsider, who would just going to tell it like it is. And that is something that I think a lot of these candidates who are senators, who are governor, who are successful in their own right simply can't do because it is not who they are.
COOPER: Well, and certainly, you know, in fairness to Donald Trump on this, to compare him to Michelle Bachmann and Sarah Palin, I mean, he has -- his speaking abilities is far greater than those two in terms of just extemporaneous ability to speak.
BASH: Well, not just that. I'm glad you brought that up. The other thing is that, you know, haven't gone back and looked at the trajectory of a Michelle Bachmann or even a Herman Cain. Remember in 2012, it was like everybody had their moment in the sun. But I believe that it was much more a 999. It was much more brief than Donald Trump. And remember, people were just seeing them for the first time. Everybody knows who Donald Trump is and everybody has for decades.
COOPER: And Ana, I want to play part of what Jeb Bush had to say about Trump today. We will played a little bit, but I want to play more.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BUSH: The people that are expressing support now for Donald Trump, they're not, they're good people. They see the world and they see the lack of rule of law. They see an uncontrolled border. So I respect the sentiments that they feel when they hear Trump talk.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: It is interesting, though, Ana, I can imagine Trump's response to what Jeb Bush has said. Because he said, you know, it is really about the tone. It is about, you know, this kind of divisive tone that he's using. It is not appropriate.
You know, Trump has said this in the past already which is like all these people are talking about tone. I want to make America great. That's basically his line. And you know, I think, don't you think that resonates with people? I mean, don't people get sick of moderated tone?
[20:10:30] NAVARRO: I think some people, and I think it, you know, it may resonate with some people. The question is how long? I think, you know, Anderson, you -- sometimes you date and you flirt
with and you make out with certain people but you don't marry them, you know, because it is fun to maybe date them and flirt with them.
COOPER: Are you getting personal here, Ana?
NAVARRO: And I think at some point -- yes.
COOPER: Go ahead. I know what you mean.
NAVARRO: Be careful what we say! Anyway, but you know, I think that people are, I think the Republicans at the end want to win. I think we know that electability matters. We also want to hear I think an agenda and some solutions.
I think Jeb is absolutely right. Donald Trump is tapping into the very legitimate fears, frustrations that the American people have with the dysfunction in Washington. When you see thing like the porous borders, sanctuaries, cities, when you see things that are not working, you do have the feelings of anger.
We all know that the congressional approval is in the single digits. He is tapping into that frustration. My question is, where do you go from there? When do you start offering solutions?
COOPER: Well, Kevin, let me ask you that, and you've been a strategist before on campaigns and I think Ana raises a good point. At what point does Donald Trump have to start giving very specific solutions? Because, you know, Jeb Bush, I'm sure if you cornered him on these issues or Marco Rubio, they could, you know, list off of a number of a number of policy initiatives. They can list policy -- things that are happening in Congress. I would be curious to know if Donald Trump can do that. And at what point does Donald Trump have to be able to do that?
SCOTT: Yes. You're right. Donald Trump is going to have to very clearly outline what he is going to do. And I have no doubt that some of the aura around him will fade. But this, you know, when you go here, I love Jeb Bush, when you hear Jeb Bush speak or Hillary speak or John Kasich speak, you know what you are going to get. People are interested in hearing something new, something fresh. They're hearing it from Donald Trump.
I think what he is going to do is, he is going on challenge other members of the GOP to be more honest, to be more frank, to go off- script a little bit. And I think that why in long term, it is going to be good for the GOP. What he is going to pull into it.
COOPER: Yes. It is an interesting perspective.
Kevin Paul Scott, it is great to have you on.
NAVARRO: I don't know if you can get more off script than calling someone a jack ass. Well then, he may be right.
COOPER: Well, to hear Lindsey Graham, yes, he is off-script.
Ana Navarro, thank you. Dana Bash as well.
As always, a reminder. Make sure you set your DVRs so you can watch "360" any time you want.
Just ahead, we have new video of the arrest that sent an African- American woman to jail where she later died under circumstances that are now under investigation. We are going to ask our legal panel just what they make and show you the dash cam video that was just released today. Here is part of it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Let's do this. Yes. Don't touch me.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get out of the car.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Don't touch me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:16:24] COOPER: There is breaking news tonight in the Sandra Bland case. Texas officials have released the dash cam video that many people, not least of all, to Miss Bland's family have been waiting to see. It shows the traffic stop that landed the 28-year-old woman in jail where she died three days later. Her death now being treated as a murder investigation according to the district attorney general.
Now, here's part of what happened after Miss Bland was pulled over for allegedly failing to signal before changing lanes.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Step out of the car.
SANDRA BLAND, VICTIM: You don't have the right.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Step out of the car.
BLAND: You don't have the right to do that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I do have the right. Now, step out or I will remove you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Now, Miss bland was arrested and as we said, jailed. All of this unfolding in Prairie View, Texas about 60 miles northwest of Houston. We are going to play more of the dash cam video in a moment.
First, Ryan Young joins us from Prairie View to explain how he got to this point -- Ryan.
RYAN YOUNG, CNN CORRESPONDENT: A lot of family members are very upset about this. In fact, they talked to investigators. The family lawyer saw this video just yesterday. He told us he didn't see anything on the tape that would lead to an arrest.
Now, he also today had a first chance to go inside the actual jail cell where Sandra Bland was staying and where authorities say she hung herself. We walked through the jail so you could see food that was left there from her, already starting to mold. And the trash bag that was in the corner where they said that was the same kind of liner that she used the wrap her neck.
Of course, there is a lot of question about their case. And people want to know what exactly happened to Miss Bland.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
YOUNG (voice-over): Tonight, newly released surveillance video from just outside the jail cell where 28-year-old Sandra Bland died raising more questions about her death.
ELTON MATHIS, WALLER COUNTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY: This investigation is still being treated just as it would be a murder investigation.
YOUNG: Bland was found unresponsive in her jail cell three days after she was arrested for allegedly assaulting a police officer during a routine traffic stop. Police say she hanged herself with a plastic bag and have ruled her death a suicide. The Texas rangers and FBI are investigating.
There were no cameras inside Bland's cell but surveillance footage of the hallway showed no one entering or leaving before her body was discovered. A Waller county sheriff's official said that Bland refused a breakfast tray around 6:30 a.m. and responded to a jailer conducting rounds around 7:00 a.m. telling him, "I'm fine."
SHERIFF R. GLENN SMITH, WALLER COUNTY, TEXAS: About 8:00, she was on the intercom requesting I want to make a phone call. I can't do it in here. OK? And then I believe it was like 8:56 a.m. is when the female jailer walked back here. Looks in to ask her if she wants to go out in the recreation yard.
YOUNG: Surveillance video shows officers checking on Bland and calling for emergency response. She was pro announced dead a short time later.
CANNON LAMBERT, BLAND FAMILY ATTORNEY: There's a lot more questions than answers for sure. It means you are doing more than just (INAUDIBLE).
YOUNG: Bland family attorney Cannon Lambert said he was able to identify glitches and jumps in the video which use motion activation. He questions what if any medical attention she received when she was booked. He also wants to know what is in the arrest report. Bland's family says there is no way she would have committed suicide.
SHARON COOPER, SANDRA BLAND'S SISTER: Seven days later. I still don't know what happened to my baby sister.
YOUNG: The family's attorney said an independent autopsy show deep tissue bruising to Bland's back. What he said is consistent with someone having kneed her in the back. The arresting officer has been placed on administrative leave. And the district attorney after talking with Bland's family and people who last talked with her including a bail bondsman says there are questions that need to be answered.
[20:20:11] MATHIS: It needs a thorough and exhaustive review. It will go to the grand jury.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: In addition to the jail cell site and you talk to attorney, what did they tell you?
YOUNG: Yes, we did talk to authorities. We are actually here for a news conference they held this afternoon. And honestly, they said that initial traffic stop, that officer has been put on administrative leave right now because they believe there were some violations within that traffic stop. One of the thing that we heard over and over, you have to remain professional during a traffic stop and they believe the officer may have stepped out of his bounds. But that still doesn't answer the questions about what happened inside that jail cell. So many people want to know what happened in there.
COOPER: Has the police department, have they said anything about the dash cam video?
YOUNG: No. You know, when we got that dash cam video just after the conference they had here. But they did say they stated over and over again. There were violations there and they are going to deal with that officer. Of course, that is step in the jail cell but they said they need to address those issues during that pullover.
COOPER: All right, Ryan Young, I appreciate it.
Just ahead, we are going to dig deeper on the breaking news. We are going to ask our legal and law enforcement expert what they make of this dash cam video. We are going to show you more of it. How this altercation began. We will be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:25:02] COOPER: Tonight's breaking news, a short time ago, Texas officials release the dash cam video of the July 10th traffic stop that ended in Sandra Bland's arrest. Three days later, the 28-year- old who just moved to the area for a new job is found dead in her jail cell. She was pulled over for allegedly failing to signal before changing lanes. And here's what happened next.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK, ma'am. Are you OK?
BLAND: You. This is your job. I'm waiting on you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You seem very irritated.
BLAND: I am. I don't know what I'm getting a particular for. I was getting out. Your way speeding up a family. So I moved over and you stopped me. So yes, I am a little irritated. That doesn't stop you from giving me a ticket.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you done?
BLAND: You asked me what's wrong and I told you. So now I'm done. Yes.
BLAND: OK. Do you mind putting out your cigarette, please?
BLAND: I'm in my car. Why do I have to put out my cigarette?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You can step out now.
BLAND: I don't have to step out.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Step out of the car. Step out of the car.
BLAND: You don't have the right.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Step out of the car.
BLAND: You do not have the right to do this.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I do have the right. Now, step out or I will remove you.
BLAND: I refuse to talk to you other than to identify myself --.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Step out or I will remove you.
BLAND: I am getting removed for a failure --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Step out or I will remove you. I am giving you a lawful order. Get out of the car now. Or I'm going to remove you.
BLAND: I'm calling my --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm going to yank you out.
BLAND: OK. You're going on yank me out my car? OK. All right. Let's do this.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're going to.
BLAND: Don't touch me.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get out of the car.
BLAND: Don't touch me. I'm not under arrest.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You are under arrest.
BLAND: I'm under arrest for what?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Send another unit. Get out of the car. Get out of the car. Now.
BLAND: Why am I being apprehended?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I said get out of the car.
BLAND: Why am I being apprehended?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm giving you lawful order. I'm going to drag you out of here.
BLAND: You're going to drag me out of my own car.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get out of the car! Get out. Now! Get out of car.
BLAND: For failure to signal. You are doing all of this for a failure to signal.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get over there.
BLAND: Right. Yes. Let's take this to court. For failure to signal. For failure to signal.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get off the phone.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: The authorities said that Miss Bland hanged herself in her jail cell. The district attorney said the case is being treated as a murder investigation. I want to talk about this with our legal analyst Sunny Hostin and Phillip Holloway. They're both former prosecutors. Phillip is also a former police officer. Also with us CNN law enforcement analyst Harry Houck.
Harry, when you look at this, does the officer have the right to ask her to get out of the car and then try to physically remove her from the vehicle when she doesn't want to?
HARRY HOUCK, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Yes. What a lot of people don't understand, is a summons is in lieu of arrest. So in other words, you know, we give you a summons, I just need to be nice or just to keep the jails from being so filled up, alright.
The fact is, an officer can make an arrest for any time for you run a red light, a parking ticket, anything like that. So what did was he -- he noticed that she was agitated. The one problem I have is the fact that he told her to get out of the car because she wouldn't stop smoking. I mean, whether or not that was a reason why he pulled her out, it sort of looks that way, you know.
COOPER: Right. It seemed like he got annoyed that, you know, I mean, he was annoyed initially at her attitude and --
HOUCK: And she was annoyed.
COOPER: Right. She was annoyed. And then she refused to stop smoking.
Sunny, was it justifiable for him to then say get out of vehicle?
SUNNY HOSTIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: I don't think so. But the bottom line I often tell people when I teach street law or otherwise, when you have a police encounter, you want to make it as short and sweet as possible. And so, if an officer is telling you to put your cigarette out, you best be sure you put your cigarette out. But I don't think that he had the right to ask her to get out of the car. Because not putting out your cigarette is not cause for an arrest.
HOUCK: But as you know, you have to comply with whatever, as a prosecutor that you must comply with a police officer whether he is right or wrong. You must comply and then you go after --
HOSTIN: You should comply. HOUCK: And then you'll deal with the system and you'll deal with an
attorney --
HOSTIN: I agree should you comply but grounds for arrest is not failing to put your cigarette out.
HOUCK: Very true.
COOPER: Let me bring you into this. Because, obviously, this is separate from whatever happened in jail cell whether it was suicide or something else. And we'll talk about that in a moment. But just in terms of how this officer behaved and how she behaved, how do you see this encounter because it seemed like there were opportunities for de- escalation, certainly, from both of them all throughout this.
PHILLIP HOLLOWAY, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: You're absolutely correct. And I agree with Harry that the officer may have the right to make a full custodial arrest. It is not how I would have handled it.
[20:30:00] The officer seems to have gotten angry when she refused to put out her cigarette, which, as far as I know, it is not against the law to smoke inside your vehicle in Texas. He got angry. And when she did not comply, then he escalated it. He had the option to simply write her a citation. In fact, in the full version of this video that was released, you see the officer's prior traffic stop, where he just gave somebody a warning, and everything was nice and it was cordial. In this particular case, it looked like the officer got upset, and that's what escalated the situation. And from there, of course, it went to a full custodial arrest. And Anderson, you make a very good point. This video and what happened in this traffic stop is an entirely separate and distinct issue from the circumstances surrounding her death.
HOSTIN: But I think we need to make it clear this officer made it clear that he was giving her a warning. Right? If you see the video in its entirety, which I have and you have. So he was not going to give her a summons. So this was never going to be a custodial arrest.
The bottom line is, he lost his cool. The police officer is supposed to be the professional.
COOPER: And in terms of what happened in that jail cell, there are postings that she apparently made back in March where she talked about battling depression, talked about post-traumatic stress disorder. Her family says there's no way she would ever commit suicide. She had too much to live for. With all due respect to the family, and we don't know what happened, oftentimes people who commit suicide seem to have everything going for them. There's no way to tell necessarily what's going on in somebody's mind.
HOSTIN: I think that's right.
HOUCK: We've had this several times. What happens is if somebody doesn't leave a note when they commit suicide, or there isn't a history of some kind of psychological disorder, the family always thinks it's murder. Almost all the time. And we have got to sit down and explain to them it's not. Because usually the family is the last to know if there is a psychological condition as a result of them committing the suicide. Here we could see there's video. The whole time she was in that cell. Nobody approached that cell. Second of all, there were prisoners across from her cell who were interviewed, they said they saw nothing and heard nothing. There would have been a heck of a ruckus if someone went in there and hanged her and tried to commit murder.
HOSTIN: I think it is too soon to jump to conclusions as to whether or not it was a suicide or a murder, because we know that the investigation is ongoing. But let me say this, in 2012 in this same exact county jail, there was another alleged suicide. And so I think it is odd at best that you have two suicides in the span of a couple of years in the same county jail. But I will also say that if you look at the statistics, in county jails, suicides are at a rate of three time higher than the general inmate population. So we are seeing an alarming number of suicides in jails and in custody and in county jails in particular.
(CROSSTALK)
HOUCK: And there are a lot of suicides in jails. It happens all the time.
COOPER: Also, arguing -- the fact these are two such separate incidents. The altercation that actually got her into custody in the first place and her confinement. If one was making the argument, well, it was the officers who brought her there, and her suicide happened right away, that would be very suspicious, but it does not seem like there's any reasons why any of the prison or jail employees would have any motive for wanting her to in any way be harmed.
HOLLOWAY: That's absolutely correct. And once again, Harry is correct. It seems like I'm always agreeing with Harry.
HOSTIN: You are.
HOLLOWAY: Nobody approached --
HOUCK: Because we're both great.
HOLLOWAY: -- that jail cell. We know about 8:00 in the morning, some three days after she was arrested, she was in her cell and presumably alive and well. And about an hour later is when she was found hanged to death. And so if nobody approaches that cell during that time and there's nobody in the cell with her, I am perfectly fine concluding that in all likelihood --
(CROSSTALK)
HOSTIN: It is too soon to make a conclusion. The FBI is going to look at the video.
COOPER: Were there any jumps, were there any cuts in that video.
HOSTIN: It's possible, let's face it, that is possible. (CROSSTALK)
COOPER: I think the key is a transparent investigation and a just investigation.
HOSTIN: Which is ongoing.
COOPER: The family certainly deserves that and she deserves it. Thank you, Harry, Sunny, thank you very much. Philip Holloway, great to have you.
Just ahead, more breaking news. A terrorist leader with a $7 million bounty on his head is now dead. Plus, new information tonight about the Chattanooga gunman, and the sympathies he expressed for an extremist leader. Did those sentiments lead him to kill five service members in cold blood?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:38:30]
COOPER: There's more breaking news. There is one less terror leader in the world right now. A notorious one, with a $7 million bounty on his head. He headed a shadowy al Qaeda spinoff until a U.S. air strike got him earlier this month. Barbara Starr has the latest for us tonight from the Pentagon. Barbara, what's the latest you know about exactly who this guy was and the mission that killed him?
BARBARA STARR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Anderson, well, Muhsin al Fadhli, the U.S. believes, was the leader of the Khorasan group, that is the al Qaeda offshoot operating for the last many years in northern Syria. Very violent group. The U.S. had been looking for him for a long time. The Khorasan group had vowed to attack the United States and western interests. This is a guy who was a key al Qaeda operative. One of the few that the U.S. says had been given advance notice of the 9/11 attacks, and then in October 2002, involved in other attacks against U.S. Marines in Kuwait, and a French merchant ship. Somebody they had really wanted to get.
And Khorasan is a group that might have had the ability to reach out and attack the U.S. They had bomb makers. They knew how to make bombs. This is a group the U.S. had been going after for quite some time. So getting al Fadhli, a big kill.
COOPER: That's the thing. Is much known about the organizational structure of this group? And how big a setback it would be with this guy out of the picture?
STARR: Well, the Pentagon says it would be a big setback for al Qaeda. Not a lot publicly known about the group over the many months, other than they tried to have strikes against some of the key leaders there.
[20:40:00]
Not at all clear who is still in Syria, fully operating on behalf of the Khorasan group. But I think one of the most interesting things here right now is they killed him in a drone strike in northern Syria in a vehicle he was riding in. That says a lot about U.S. intelligence in northern Syria. They knew he was there at the time they fired, and they took the shot.
COOPER: The fact that they were able to get this guy in Syria while he was on the move. Whether they had -- they were eavesdropping on him, they had human intelligence, we don't know. But it is certainly hopefully worrying to this group.
STARR: To them and to ISIS. I have to tell you, Anderson, northern Syria right now, very much in the crosshairs of U.S. intelligence. They are doing stepped up air strikes everywhere they can find. Either Khorasan now or ISIS operatives. They are stepping up the intelligence gathering, in that area, working with local Kurdish forces on the ground. All the indications are we will see a lot more activity in that region, which for a very long time, had been pretty much off limits. Maybe no more.
COOPER: Fascinating. Barbara, thank you so much.
STARR: Sure.
COOPER: Now as Chattanooga prepares to bury five murdered service members, new information is coming to light about the gunman and his influences. Signs possibly he had sympathies for another extremist leader who was also killed in a U.S. air strike, an actions from authorities in Jordan, where the killer spent time with family. Details now from our Gary Tuchman, who joins us tonight from Chattanooga. So what is the new information about first of all, the gunman's uncle in Jordan?
GARY TUCHMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Anderson, we know Abdulazeez was in Jordan last year. U.S. authorities want to see if he was radicalized there. His mother and father, through a family representative, are telling us they wanted him to go to Jordan. They said his life was in a downward spiral here in Tennessee with drug abuse and depression. They thought he could right himself living with relatives for several months in Jordan.
One of those relatives he lived with was an uncle. He also worked for that uncle, and tonight that uncle is being detained. A lawyer for that uncle says for five days that uncle has not been able to leave. He's being questioned. He has not been arrested, he has not been accused of any wrongdoing, but that lawyer says that uncle cannot leave. Obviously interrogation rules and laws in Jordan are different than here in the United States, and Jordanian authorities and United States authorities are not saying anything publicly to us about that uncle.
COOPER: And there are still a lot of questions about whether this killer was radicalized, self-radicalized, whether he actually had contact with the group. What have you learned about that?
TUCHMAN: The parents have told us that in his weak moments, they said their son got into what they call evil ideology. They don't deny that, but they don't believe he talked to any outsider about becoming a domestic terrorist. However, they have told us that he did some Internet searches through the representative, and also some writing after 2013 when he was arrested, after -- not when he was arrested, but when he was fired from his job at a nuclear power plant because he failed a drug test. He made some writings and he referred to Anwar al Awlaki. Now, Anwar Al Awlaki was an American-born cleric who lived in Yemen. He was a leader of al Qaeda, notorious, one of their top recruiters, and according to the family, they do acknowledge that he had, their son had an affinity for him, and also that quote, "some of his writings made sense to him." So that's an important thing U.S. investigators will look at. But they also say through this representative, Anderson, that he mentioned no other names in any of his writings or any of his searches, and also didn't talk about any terrorist organizations such as al Qaeda.
COOPER: Gary, thanks very much. Well, few people know better than Maajid Nawaz how the radicalization process works. He himself was radicalized, and arrested, imprisoned, and when he got out, dedicated himself to fighting extremism, which is what he does now. He tells his story in "Radical: My Journey from Islamist Extremism," which is a great read.
Maajid, this new information about this killer, allegedly agreeing with some of Anwar al Awlaki's teachings. We also know he was displeased with the U.S. government, particular its war on terror. Does this sound like a person who may have been radicalized, whether it was through watching videos?
MAAJID NAWAZ, AUTHOR: Yes, Anderson, it does sound like that. The evidence currently points in that direction, and I think we just have to be frank about this and accept that. Unless something surprising happens, it would appear to be that Mohammed Youssef Abdulazeez was influenced by in particular, al Qaeda's modus operandi, that Anwar Awlaki specifically encouraged, which was, if we remember back to what now appears to be the old days of global jihadism, Awlaki, who was heading up al Qaeda in Yemen, advised followers in the West and in particular in the United States, to instigate these sorts of atrocious attacks themselves. The concept of lone wolves, those who stand up, you know, they may be operationally alone but they are not ideologically alone. That's important. To go to the kitchen of their mom, as Awlaki would advise them, and to pick up anything and attack unsuspecting bystanders. And it appears to be the case, that this is what this terrorist, this jihadist terrorist, has done.
[20:45:00]
COOPER: And it's interesting, because our Drew Griffin talked to a close friend of his, who was sort of a mentee of this guy. Who said that this guy dismissed ISIS when talking to a friend, but that doesn't necessarily rule out the fact that he may have had other extremist views. And in fact, the friend said that in the last couple of days, he seemed happier than ever before. This is a guy who is doing computer searches on martyrdom. That might explain that kind of happiness in the final days.
NAWAZ: First of all, ISIS, I mean, dismissing ISIS, condemning ISIS doesn't necessarily put us in good company. Al Qaeda itself condemns ISIS, as do all other global jihadist organizations, because ISIS declares itself their leader, and they don't recognize ISIS' authority or their caliphate. So merely dismissing ISIS doesn't necessarily mean one is somehow a moderate. That term has become so relative, because it depends upon one's starting point, that it has become meaningless. So I don't think that would be evidence that he's not a jihadist.
On the point of martyrdom, I think it's very important, the family has claimed depression. Others have other theories, drug abuse, alcohol abuse. But actually, it is important to look at the way in which the Islamist ideology can be used to weaponize people who may have depression issues, or alternatively, may have grievances with western foreign policy. But ultimately, you know, what's the difference between someone who is depressed and commits suicide and someone who is depressed and kills innocent people. And I think that's where the Islamist ideology and the concept of martyrdom kicks in. And almost as a perverted form of atonement, that by seeking martyrdom, by killing others in this understanding of jihad they have, he believed that he would atone for his sins and go straight to paradise. Certainly his writings would seem to indicate that's the case.
COOPER: And you believe that we shouldn't necessarily be looking at what group, what specific groups might have inspired him, if any, but rather, an Islamist extremism as a whole, especially when it comes to lone wolves. What do you -- explain that.
NAWAZ: Yes. I think counterterrorism operationally is very much concerned with which group, because that affects operations and tactics in targeting those groups. But I think from a civil society perspective, it is erroneous for us to worry too much about whether it was ISIS or al Qaeda. If it indeed was a jihadist attack. What we should really be worried about is a misnomer that arose during the Obama administration over the course of the last five years. This term al Qaeda inspired extremism. And I've often said, no, al Qaeda didn't inspire extremism. It was extremism that inspired al Qaeda, and then inspired ISIS after it. And even if we deal with ISIS, we'll have many other groups that are (inaudible), as long as we don't deal with this jihadist ideology, which has reached the scale of a global jihadist insurgency, and I'm delighted that the British prime minister gave a speech yesterday -- and I helped him with that speech -- in which he pinpointed and named this ideology. He said the Islamist extremist ideology, as distinct from the religion of Islam, must be addressed.
COOPER: Maajid Nawaz, always good to talk to you. Thank you very much.
Up next, surfer versus shark. Mick Fanning giving new incredible details on how he escaped a great white shark without a scratch. He also reveals whether he'll go back in the water.
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[20:51:30] COOPER: Three-time world surfing champion Mick Fanning knows he is one of the lucky ones. As soon as he landed back home in Australia this morning, he shared new details on how he successfully fought off that shark with his bare hands off the coast of South Africa during a surfing competition. Sunday's attack was captured all on live TV. Here's what those cameras missed. A still photographer captured this moment when Fanning got back on land. Tonight we have new insight on the fear he faced when he wrestled the shark. Randi Kaye reports.
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RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Professional surfer Mick Fanning never saw the black fin as it appeared out of nowhere.
MICK FANNING, SURFER: All of a sudden, I just felt something, a presence or something behind me. That's when I sort of jumped on my board. And it just sort of came up and went for the tile of my board. But then I don't know. I don't know why it didn't bite. It just kept, like, coming back. And just, I was on top of it, trying to put my board in between us. As the wave went, my board was sort off and I was trying to get to my board. Then all of a sudden it came back again. That's when I just tried to just position myself away from it, to the side of it. It was just right there. And that's when I, I don't know if I punched it hard or little baby punches. I started getting dragged underwater by my leg rope, and that's when my leg rope broke. Just as it started going away. And I was like, do I go for my board or do I swim for shore? And at that stage, I was just screaming.
KAYE: Fanning was terrified, but also in awe of the great white.
FANNING: I felt so insignificant. Like the thing was so powerful and was, it just moved so fast. I thought that was it. I was just waiting for it to just to come and take a leg or two.
KAYE: As he finally swam away, he paused for a look into the eyes of the deadly shark.
FANNING: If this thing is going to come at me, I want to have a look at it. And so I turned around. I was on my back and I was just waiting for it. I had my fist plucked and ready to see what was going to go. And luckily, it didn't come. By that stage, the boats and the jet skis were on top of us.
Someone was looking out for me. You know? To walk away from a shark attack with not a scratch on you, it's like -- it's a miracle, really. I spoke to different people. I actually had dinner with a guy who had been attacked three times. And it was just like, yes. You don't know. You count your lucky stars. And if there is someone out there looking after us, thanks.
It was so close. And yes, I'm doing okay. I haven't got a scratch on me. It is just sort of more of an emotional, mental sort of trauma right now. And it will probably take, I don't know, a couple of weeks, months, I don't know. I don't know how long it will take, but I'm just lucky. KAYE: Lucky and looking forward to surfing again.
Randi Kaye, CNN. New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Just incredible. A lot more happening tonight. Amara Walker has the 360 bulletin. Amara.
[20:55:00]
AMARA WALKER, CNN ANCHOR: Anderson, a federal appeals court has overturned five of the 18 corruption convictions against imprisoned former Illinois Governor Rod Blagojevich. They were linked to his efforts to secure a cabinet position in the Obama White House in exchange for appointing a presidential adviser to Mr. Obama's old Senate seat. The court said there were problems with the jury's instructions but said he should remain in prison while new legal action plays out.
Apple stock has fallen 8 percent in afterhours trading after the company reported it sold fewer iPhones than expected in the past three months, and offered a weak outlook for the current quarter.
In northern Iran, at least 16 people have died in flash floods triggered by heavy rain.
And an unexpected discovery off the coast of North Carolina, a wrecked ship, possibly from the Revolutionary War era. Scientists found several artifacts by sonar, including red bricks, glass bottles and a metal compass.
COOPER: Wow, incredible, thank you, Amara. We'll be right back.
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