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Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees
Interview with Donald Trump; Donald Trump Interview Analyzed; Breaking News in Sandra Bland Case. Aired 8-9p ET
Aired July 22, 2015 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[20:00:00] ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight: a news making conversation with Donald Trump.
He is, right now, the leading Republican running for president. He is leading in the polls, leading in coverage, in controversy, and, at the moment, he is leading in how he seems to be shaking up the race and the reaction that he is drawing from his opponents.
Senator Lindsey Graham destroyed his cell phones after Donald Trump gave out his number and posted it today on YouTube. Rick Perry today called Trumpism, in his words, a cancer on conservatism because of what Donald Trump has been saying on the campaign trail, attacking him on his comments about illegal immigrants. But, also, Perry was attacking him on faith and his commitment to it, which I talked to Donald Trump about tonight.
We covered a lot of ground, starting with polling released this morning, a few hours before I spoke with Mr. Trump, a new Quinnipiac survey in the swing states of Colorado, Iowa, and Virginia showing he has the worst or second-to-worst favorability in a general election matchup, Hillary Clinton also performing badly in that same survey.
Here's part one of the conversation.
COOPER: Let's talk polls, first of all, "Washington Post" poll on Monday, great news for you.
DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Yes.
COOPER: Huge lead in the Republican field.
Quinnipiac poll came out today, though, not-so-good news for you. In the general election voters, Colorado, Iowa, Virginia, you have the worst favorability ratings of anyone, Republican or Democrat, negative favorability ratings of almost 2-1. Hillary Clinton also did badly.
What do you make of it?
TRUMP: I -- I haven't seen it. I really don't know. I haven't seen it. I have only --.
COOPER: Do negative favorability ratings worry you?
TRUMP: I don't think so. I mean, I have turned a lot of them around. And, as you know, in North Carolina, it was negative. And now it's like tremendously positive. And when people hear what I say about the vets and how strong my commitment is to the vets, they have been treated so badly, and to the border, which is just horrible, I mean, every time people listen to me, all of a sudden, it becomes very favorable.
A good example would be North Carolina, where it's so positive. I haven't seen that. But I think, generally speaking, we are doing very well. And, certainly, we're doing well in the ABC/"Washington Post" poll and every other poll that I have seen in the last couple of weeks.
COOPER: So, you think you can turn around -- because a lot of people say, look, that -- those kind of unfavorability ratings; that does not bode well. You think you can turn that around?
TRUMP: I don't know. I mean, who knows? I'm doing this for the good of the country. Somebody has to do it. Politicians are never going to turn this country around. Our country is a mess. The politicians are going to destroy this country. They're weak and they're ineffective. And they're controlled by the lobbyists and the special interests. So, will I? I don't know. I have no idea.
COOPER: You talk lobbyists and the special interests, though. You and I talked last time. You have given a lot of money to politicians over the years.
COOPER: You give to Democrats. You give to Republicans.
TRUMP: I was on the other side.
COOPER: Aren't you part of the problem?
TRUMP: I was -- absolutely, 100 percent.
COOPER: You are?
TRUMP: Absolutely. I was on the other side. They would do whatever I want, up until you decide to run.
COOPER: So, isn't that hypocritical, to say, oh, this is a problem, but I'm going to make the most of this problem?
TRUMP: No. It's called playing the game. I was a businessman. I made a fortune. I made a lot of money. I posted over $10 billion.
COOPER: So, in order to make money, it's OK to play the game?
TRUMP: Well, it's called your life. I mean, I'm a businessman. And I contribute to people, and they treat me nicely and everything else and --.
COOPER: So, how do you change that? How do you change that culture of money for access?
TRUMP: Well, I understand --.
TRUMP: Look, I just read an article where Bush is meeting with all these lobbyists in Washington, has a meeting with all these lobbyists. Every one of those lobbyists that gives money, they expect something for it. And that's a bad thing. That's a bad thing.
COOPER: Don't you have lobbyists, though?
TRUMP: Absolutely. I have had lobbyists, and I have had some very good ones. They could do anything. They can take a politician and have him jump off this ledge.
COOPER: Can you actually change that culture of corruption?
TRUMP: Well, you can, in the sense that the top person can't be bought. I'm worth far too much money. I don't need anybody's money. I'm not running with anybody's money. I'm spending my own money. But the lobbyists have -- they totally control these politicians.
Just take a look. In one of the articles very recently, I see Bush with the lobbyists. And he's sitting there with all of these people. They're totally telling him what to do, like a little puppet, and the same with Hillary, and the same with everybody else.
Now, when I am in business, I'm part of that game. When I'm in this, I now know. When somebody comes --.
COOPER: Can you jump back and forth, though?
TRUMP: Oh, absolutely. I am able to do that very easily.
COOPER: That's not hypocritical?
TRUMP: Not at all. Look, I'm going to do -- I have made a lot of money.
COOPER: I have heard.
TRUMP: And I don't need money. And I don't need money to run. I don't need $5,000 here, $10,000. These guys are desperate for money. I don't need it. I'm going to do what is right for the country.
COOPER: Who would run your business if you're president?
TRUMP: My children and executives. I have very good executives and great children. They're very good.
COOPER: Talking yesterday, Jeb Bush said, if we embrace this language of divisiveness and ugliness, we will never win.
TRUMP: Well, when you say divisive, OK.
COOPER: No, he says --
TRUMP: No, but you're quoting him.
TRUMP: But when you quote divisive.
TRUMP: I mean, I get called all these horrible names by Lindsey Graham, who I don't even know. I didn't start it with Lindsey Graham. I couldn't care less about Lindsey Graham. He's registered at, I think, zero in the polls, by Rick Perry from Texas, who was up in my office a few years ago. I just posted a picture of him shaking my hand, looking for money and looking for support. And he was up -- you know, people will say, I called it hypocrite, but they are saying horrible things. Like, I don't even know these people and they are saying these things.
Now, am I supposed to, you know, just say, it's OK to for them to say -- one guy -- I guess it was Lindsey Graham -- called me a jackass? So, am I supposed to say, oh, it's OK if I'm called a -- I'm called a jackass. You have to fight back. The country has to fight back. Everyone is pushing our country around. We can't allow that, Anderson.
[20:05:14] COOPER: Is it presidential, though?
TRUMP: I think it's presidential.
COOPER: To give out somebody's phone -- to give out a personal phone number.
TRUMP: Well, that was a long story. I mean, you have to see the whole story the way it morphed. OK? That was a whole story, where he wanted to get on "FOX & Friends," and he called me up out of the blue. I never met the guy. Then he wanted to come in for campaign contributions. He gave me his -- first off -- and then he starts hitting me years later. And I happen to have this crazy phone number. And I held it up. I said, this guy was over here. And, actually, as you probably know, the room was packed. It was standing room only. In fact, they had theaters. There was overflow crowds. They had all sorts of closed-circuit television into other rooms. The place went wild. We all had a good time.
COOPER: But is that presidential?
TRUMP: I think so. I think it is fine.
COOPER: Is that something, as president -- when you're opposed by somebody in Congress, you would give out their personal phone number?
TRUMP: I was hit by somebody unfairly. I was called names by somebody. So, he was up -- somebody that is hitting you, saying what a bad guy I am, was up in my office asking for money and asking if I can get him on television.
COOPER: So, when -- if you're president of the United States, you are going to be hit by half the country.
TRUMP: That's true. That's true.
COOPER: Are you going to call them dumb and stupid?
TRUMP: No, I think it's a little bit different. Right now, I'm trying to do something to make the country great again. Politicians will never make this country great again. Now --
COOPER: As president, you would change your tone?
TRUMP: I think so. I would deal very differently.
COOPER: Do you have the temperament to be president? That's what -- I mean, that's the question that George -- that Jeb Bush was really raising about the divisiveness, about the language. I mean, the kind of -- like, you take -- you have a no-prisoners approach. Somebody attacks you...
TRUMP: No, I don't have that. I am very different than you would think. Right now, I am fighting because I am number one in the polls by far, and I'm being attacked on all sides. When you're attacked, you have to -- in my opinion --
COOPER: Attacked all the time.
TRUMP: Excuse me. In my opinion -- yes, but this isn't the same thing. In my opinion, when attacked, you have to, you know, defend, and attack back, OK? I'm being attacked by certain people. Actually, Bush, I think he is probably a nice guy. I don't think he has the temperament.
And by that, he is a nice guy, but he doesn't have the temperament. You know why? He is too low-key. He is too laid back. Can you imagine Bush negotiating with China? You want to talk about temperament, I will introduce you to the Chinese. They have temperament. But can you imagine Bush negotiating trade deals with China?
COOPER: His brother George W. Bush in -- when he was running, said that he would be a uniter, not a divider. What would you be?
TRUMP: I think I would be a great uniter. We are not united now. We have a president that, whether people love him or hate him, the world is a mess. Hillary Clinton, by the way, was the worst secretary of state in the history of this country, in my opinion. But we have a president right now --. Excuse me, doesn't get along with Russia, doesn't get along with anybody. I mean, the only one he gets along with is Iran. And even that is sort of very suspect, because they want to blow everybody up.
COOPER: Back in 2007 or 2008, I saw a quote on Wolf Blitzer. You said to him that Hillary Clinton surrounds herself with smart people and she would probably be a good negotiator against Iran.
TRUMP: Well, maybe she could be, but I don't think so. I don't think so. I know her very well.
And, again, when I am in the private sector and I am a businessman, I like everybody, because I have to deal with these people. I am not going to go and attack people. I have to deal with these people.
COOPER: So, Donald Trump as president would be a different Donald Trump than we have seen on the campaign trail?
TRUMP: Well, take a look at the world today. Who do we get along with? We get along with almost nobody. Our allies are decimated. We did a stupid thing in Iraq by going in. And you know that, in 2004, I was totally against going in. If you look, July of 2004, Reuters, probably stuff before that, but July of 2004, Bush actually sent a group to talk to me, because I was getting a lot of publicity on the fact that we shouldn't be doing Iraq.
I am the most militaristic person, but you have to know when to use the military. I said you will decimate this country and you will create an imbalance in the Middle East like you have never seen before. That's what happened. And I said Iran will take over Iraq and the second largest oil reserves in the world.
COOPER: People --
TRUMP: And I also said, and other groups will take over, that will be worse than Saddam Hussein. You know what happened, Anderson? It's ISIS. They took over the oil.
COOPER: Have you ever publicly acknowledged making a mistake?
TRUMP: Well, look, everyone makes mistakes. Do I publicly acknowledge making mistakes?
COOPER: I mean, have you ever said, you know what, I made a mistake; sorry about that?
TRUMP: Yes. I mean, I don't think about it. I don't like to make too many mistakes.
COOPER: Well, from there, we talked about Donald Trump's religious faith, something that Rick Perry called into question today, calling him quote "a man too arrogant, too self-absorbed to seek God's forgiveness."
I will talk to Donald Trump about whether he does ask God for forgiveness. I will also ask him about comments he made the other day about communion and why one conservative blogger says Mr. Trump has essentially lost any chance of winning the evangelical vote.
Later, breaking news. The new revelations in the death of Sandra Bland in a Texas jail after a traffic stop including the fact that she was not put on suicide watch despite having said she previously tried to take her owned life.
[20:13:35] COOPER: More now on my conversation with leading Republican presidential candidate Donald Trump and something he said over the weekend that may have gotten lost in the controversy over some of his other remarks. It's a side of him that fair to say you might not know about.
COOPER: I want to ask you about faith, because you talked about this on Saturday at this Faith and Values forum. And I think -- and a lot of people haven't heard you talk about it and were really interested.
TRUMP: Fine. Fine.
COOPER: In Iowa --
TRUMP: And, by the way, I was very well received. I had the biggest standing ovation, the biggest standing ovation. And it was really a great day. It was really a great day.
COOPER: And a lot of people didn't focus on it, because they got caught up in the whole McCain thing. You said at the faith forum, when asked if you have ever asked for forgiveness from God, you said I'm not sure I have. I just go on and try to do a better job from there. I don't think so. And that surprised some people of faith.
TRUMP: Well, I don't think so, you know. And then I said communion. I go to communion. And that's asking forgiveness, you know, in my opinion.
COOPER: For you, that's asking -- that's what communion is?
TRUMP: Well, it's a form of asking forgiveness, yes, communion. And I go to church a lot. And I'm Protestant. I'm Presbyterian.
COOPER: But you -- the idea of asking for forgiveness, that's not a central -- is that a central tenet for you? Is it -- or is that something that just --?
TRUMP: No, I like to work where I don't really have to ask for forgiveness. I like to do the right thing where I don't have to actually ask for forgiveness. Does that make sense to you, you know, where you don't make such bad things that you don't have to ask for forgiveness? I mean, I try and lead a life where I don't have to ask God for forgiveness.
But I am Protestant. I'm Presbyterian, which a lot of people are surprised to hear. I go to church. The great Norman Vincent Peale was my minister for years. "The Power of Positive Thinking" was fantastic. And --
[20:15:06] COOPER: So, forgiveness, that notion of forgiveness, that's not a central tenet for you?
TRUMP: Well, I try not to make mistakes where I have to ask for forgiveness, for one thing. So, when I'm asked a question like that, it's like, you know, I don't like to make a lot of mistakes.
COOPER: So -- and I would never ask the detail, but the idea of repentance, is that something that is important to you?
TRUMP: I think repenting is terrific. I mean, it's great.
COOPER: But is that -- but do you feel the need to?
TRUMP: If I make a mistake --
COOPER: Is that part of forgiveness?
TRUMP: If I make a mistake, yes, I think it's great. But I try not to make mistakes. I mean, why do I have to repent? Why do I have to ask for forgiveness if you are not making mistakes? I work hard. I'm an honorable person. I have thousands of people that work for me. I have employed tens of thousands of people over the years.
COOPER: You give millions to charity.
TRUMP: I give millions. I built the Vietnam Memorial in Lower Manhattan with a small group of people.
COOPER: At the faith forum, you talked about communion, the Eucharist, Lord's Supper, different -- well, different things. You said that you drink my little wine and have my little cracker.
TRUMP: We were having fun. The room laughed.
COOPER: I'm just saying. But some people faith there that they --
TRUMP: They didn't say that at all. When I left, I saw people. I got the biggest ovation of the weekend. I saw people. And I saw how a couple of reporters made a big deal out of that. We were having fun. When I said, I drink the wine, I drink -- I eat the cracker, but we're talking about communion.
TRUMP: And you know what? The whole room was laughing. And they're religious people and they're great people. They're great people. But the whole room was laughing.
COOPER: Erick Erickson of Red State said that, based on your comments about faith on Saturday, that it is quote "largely closed the book on evangelical support." Do you agree with that?
TRUMP: I don't think so, because I just saw polls in Iowa that I am doing really well. I mean, you know in terms of Iowa, where it's a very big group of people, I'm doing really well.
COOPER: Although the Quinnipiac poll in Iowa, among general voters -- .
TRUMP: I don't know. You keep bringing up negative. You only want to talk about negative.
TRUMP: Why don't you bring up the positive polls?
COOPER: I did.
TRUMP: Excuse me.
COOPER: I started off with the "Washington Post" poll.
TRUMP: You start off with the interview with the poll that I didn't have been they know existed.
COOPER: No, I started off with the "Washington Post" poll.
TRUMP: You start off the interview with a poll that I didn't even know existed.
COOPER: I started off with the "Washington Post" poll intentionally, because I knew you would accuse me of that.
All I know is, every poll, I am leading in. And you give me these two polls where it's different states. They're not even a national poll.
COOPER: If you will check the record, I started off with the "Washington Post" poll where you were out of front.
TRUMP: I think it is very unfair. You're talking to me a poll I never even saw. It's not even a poll.
COOPER: No, it's today. It's a Quinnipiac poll.
TRUMP: It's not even a --
TRUMP: It's on three different states. And you are hitting me with this.
TRUMP: And I think it's a very -- frankly, I think it is a very fair question.
TRUMP: I think it is an extremely -- you start off the interview with that. You don't say, I led in the FOX poll. I'm leading in the ABC/"Washington Post" poll.
COOPER: You're leading -- you're leading across the board.
TRUMP: Well, you didn't -- I am leading across the board.
TRUMP: And then you hit me with this poll that I didn't even see before, where, oh, gee -- it's not even that kind of a poll.
All I know is, I have a very big group of support. And I think one of the reasons is that --
COOPER: Among Republicans, you are way out in front.
TRUMP: Let me tell you, the people don't trust you and the people don't trust the media. And I understand why.
COOPER: Right, and politicians.
TRUMP: You know, I have always been covered fairly accurately, because it was usually a financial press. And, you know, numbers are numbers, OK? And my numbers happen to be great.
TRUMP: So, I was always sort of treated, like, fair. With the media, it's, and not all cases, some -- some of the political media is great and really honest. Even if they don't won't to be, they're really honest. But I find that 60, 70 percent of the political media is really, really dishonest.
And, you know, I tell the story, the American dream -- I talk about the American dream in speeches. The American dream is dead, but I'm going to make it bigger and better and stronger than ever before. The American dream is dead, but I'm going to make it bigger and better, stronger than ever, right? And I go, boom, and I do it with great bravado, and the audience goes crazy. I come home, and my wife is saying, oh, darling, that was so bad. I said, what was bad? What you said today? I said, what did I say? The American dream is dead, cut, on one of the major networks.
COOPER: Well, we covered a lot more ground than that, as you will see in a moment.
But there is plenty to talk about already. Joining us right now is Paul Begala, CNN political commentator, Democratic strategist, Hillary Clinton supporter, Clinton White House adviser and more. Also, former Reagan White House political director, Jeffrey Lord, currently he is a contributing editor at "American Spectator" and CNN political commentator Ana Navarro who supports Jeb Bush and is good friend with Marco Rubio.
Ana, you heard Donald Trump. He is simply not backing down. He is not easing off any of his positions. Maybe his tone would change if he were elected president, he says. For now he is headed to the U.S./Mexican border tomorrow and no doubt will get a ton of attention there. What do you make of what you heard tonight?
ANA NAVARRO, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: You know it's striking me that he is sounding incredibly repetitive. Once you take out the part about him being rich, about him being loved, about him getting great ovations, about him, him, him, him, him, there is very little meat there when it comes to policy. There is very little substance to the thing he said.
So I think, you know, I think people are venting through the polls. I will tell you a story, Anderson. In 2012, I got a poll call. And I was mad with Mitt Romney. I was mad with Barack Obama. I was mad with everybody. I told the pollster I was going to vote for Roseanne Barr who was for some reason on the Florida ballot.
I was venting through the polls. I think people are angry with dysfunction in Washington. I think they're frustrated. I think they're worried about the state of the country. And I think they're venting through these polls with Donald Trump. And I don't think it is going to last because the man has no beef.
[20:20:31] COOPER: Jeffrey, what about that? Because later in the interview, and you will see it tonight, and we are, we are two hours tonight because there is so much from the interview. I try to get him to talk about specifics. Specifically about, veterans' issues, specifically about the -- what we could do against ISIS, and some of the criticisms of what he said about that. Do you believe there is meat on, on what he is, what he is arguing? Do you believe he does know policy issues?
JEFFREY LORD, FORMER REAGAN WHITE HOUSE POLITICAL DIRECTOR: Sure. I think one of the problems here which is why all of this is sort of surprising in the sense that there is this much attention. This is July, 2015. I mean, we have months and months to go before we even get to Iowa and New Hampshire.
All presidential campaigns evolve. I don't have off to tell Paul this. I mean, they eventually, you're burdened down with briefings, and et cetera. This to be again candid about Ronald Reagan. This was said about Ronald Reagan. That he didn't have specifics. That he didn't know details and all of this kind of thing. That frankly went on when he was president. So I don't really see anything startling here.
COOPER: Paul, Donald Trump, obviously, did not like when I referenced this Quinnipiac swing state poll unfavorability ratings which I should point out Hillary Clinton did not do well in at all. They both have pretty big unfavorables in, in that poll. The only scenario where someone is favorables outweigh favorables, is Jeb Bush in Virginia. So, it is not like he is alone with the problems. Those numbers, how difficult is it for Clinton and for Trump to turn around those unfavorables. They're almost 2:1.
PAUL BEGALA, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Yes, not very is a short answer for the reason that Jeffrey states.
COOPER: So, not very difficult. BEGALA: Not very difficult. Here's why. Because we are all most 500
days away from the election. Because none of the candidates have had the time yet to spell out in detail what they want to do.
I noticed in that interview and then the other said Mr. Trump is done. He has a message, though. He has got core message. He has got a world view. His core message seems to me is I am going to make America great again. He needs to fill in, and I hope for his sake he does.
Same thing with Hillary. She gave a major speech on economy. She said this, the most important thing for me as president is to increase incomes for the middle-class, period. That's the most important thing. Now, she will flesh that out with the minimum wage, with equal pay for women, with earned paid leave for working folks. But that's the kind of stuff that can come later.
This fundamental character, though, I was struck, you seem to catch him unaware, which is really rare for Mr. Trump. He has an answer for everything. When you asked him was it presidential? I have to say against mistake. He shouldn't have said he is going to change his tone. First off, he's not going to. I mean, he didn't change his hair style from 1975. He is not going to change his fundamental nature. But the voters for him they don't want him to change his nature. They love exactly. He is not moving up in the polls despite his incendiary comments. He is leading the polls because of them. He is what Republicans want.
COOPER: Ana, do you think as president, a, he would change his tone? And to Paul's point, would that actually upset a lot of people who support him now because they do like his tone.
NAVARRO: Anderson, I am begging my Republican brethren, if they need further proof of how destructive Donald Trump is all they have to do is listen to Paul Begala, pretending he is a legitimate candidate and pumping him up. He is not what Republicans want. He's what Paul Begala and Democrats want.
COOPER: He is leading Republican polls, Ana?
NAVARRO: Right. But I just told you. I think that a lot of it is because he is tapping into very legitimate frustration that people have out there. And Anderson, let me tell you. He took after you like you were a Republican candidate. I sure hope he doesn't have your cell phone number. But we are going to have to be changing very numbers soon.
COOPER: That would be OK.
NAVARRO: Look. I may tell you this. You know, Mr. Lord, he is referring to Ronald Reagan in comparison to Trump which I think frankly is a sacrilege. I'm a Republican because of the way Ronald Reagan, because of how he reached out to Hispanic, because he worked so hard in broadening the tent. But also, let's remember, what was Ronald Reagan's 11th commandment, you shall not speak ill of another Republican. COOPER: Ana, what Jeffrey is saying is accurate though. I mean, I
remember, I was in college during the Reagan years. People were attacking Ronald Reagan. He is an actor. He doesn't know policy. He doesn't, you know, he is totally incompetent. You know, there is a lot of people who believed he was one of the great president.
NAVARRO: He was the governor of the largest state in the country.
COOPER: But you know people were saying that though? And you can make the argument, he has this company.
NAVARRO: But he was - yes. Well, you know, he has got a lot of subcontractors. He hires illegal aliens, but it's not his fault. That this was subcontractors.
Look. He is not - here is the bottom line. Donald Trump is a fraud, OK. I think that Rick Perry was completely right today.
LORD: Oh, no. Oh, no.
NAVARRO: I'm going to link to his article that he wrote on twitter. You know, the Republican Party is full of people of faith. This is a guy who says he never asked for forgiveness. The Republican Party is full of people who are honored people. This is a guy who had five deferments.
[20:25:30] COOPER: Jeffrey, those faith comments, I mean, to Eric Eriksson's point, do you think he hurt himself amongst evangelicals?
LORD: No. No. He has a since of humor, for heaven's sakes. I think we all need to lighten up a little bit. But in terms of some of the things we are talking about, you talk to him about lobbyists for instance. I mean, there is Jeb Bush coming out with some sort of lobbying reform policy that's got all kind of holes in it. That makes no sense, would be terribly ineffective and this is in July. And back in January, there he is, sweeping through Washington, D.C. like a vacuum cleaner, meeting with all these lobbyist asking for $5,000 in personal contributions if anyone them to raise $50,000 each for them. He has no intention of reforming lobbyists. I mean, that's the difference here.
COOPER: Jeffrey, we are going to have more with you. Paul Begala, thank you. Ana Navarro, as well.
Coming up next, Donald Trump on what sets him apart, he believes from his opponents.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Look, you asked me a question. I give you an answer. It is very simple. I am a very smart person. You know, I want to the best school. I am a very smart person. Let me just say. So you ask me a question. I give you an answer. I don't need pollsters like Bush and all these other people. They don't answer a question. Hillary can't give you an answer without going back and checking it out.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: We talked before the break, Jeffrey Lord, especially about what Donald Trump may call his unique selling proposition, in other words what makes him different in the eyes of not just of pundits but especially of voters. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: When you are on the debate stage, one of the things I think they will hit you with, your opponents will hit you with, not the media -- your opponents. They will say you have flip-flopped. You are a decisive guy in business, but you have been independent, you've been unaffiliated, you've been a Democrat, you've been a Republican. Back and forth. What's up with that? Are you a flip-flopper?
TRUMP: You know who else flip-flopped? A man named, my favorite, Ronald Reagan. He was a Democrat. He became a Republican.
COOPER: You were also unaffiliated. You were independent.
TRUMP: By the way, I was, and I also live in New York.
COOPER: You were pro-choice, now you are not.
TRUMP: Excuse me. Well, if you look at that clip, I hate the concept of abortion, and I did -- but also, it was never, I am a businessman. They are talking to me as a businessman about things like abortion. Nobody ever even asked me questions like that.
But if you look at that clip and let it run, I talk about how I hate the concept. I went on forever about it. But nobody would ask me questions. You know, sort of like a question you don't ask a guy. I build buildings, they are not asking me about am I pro-choice, am I pro-life, what am I? But, yes, I don't use the word flip. I have evolved on a lot of different things.
COOPER: The difference I have found between you and just about every other political candidate I have ever talked to is you don't come with a huge retinue, which surprises a lot of people. You talk extemporaneously. Your critics say you don't know the issues enough.
TRUMP: I know the issues better than anybody knows the issues.
COOPER: You talk extemporaneously. Politicians are very controlled. And I think that's a huge part of your appeal, and I think that's why people enjoy their personal interaction with you. Even right now, we have gone way over the time you said you wanted. Nobody has given me a signal saying wrap it up, he has got to go. So I think that's all to your credit and deserves to be pointed out.
TRUMP: Look, you ask me a question. I give you an answer. It's very simple. I'm a very smart person. You know, I went to the best school. I am a very smart person. All right? Let me just say, so you ask me a question, I give you an answer. I don't need pollsters like Bush and all these other people. They don't answer a question. Hillary, she can't give you an answer without going back and checking it out. I am much richer than almost anybody. I can have thousands of pollsters. I don't have any. I' don't want to waste the money.
COOPER: To continue the conversation now, we're back with Jeffrey Lord, joining us, the publisher of Bloomberg View. Tim O'Brien, Tim has written the book on the man, "Trump Nation: the Art of Being the Donald." You have had a unique history obviously with him. You -- he alleges you underestimated his net worth. He sued you. That suit was dismissed, correct?
TIM O'BRIEN, AUTHOR: It was. He has had a long history of bouncing his net worth from very lows to the very highs. I did some reporting to try to pin that down. He is always all over the map. He felt that the number that my reporting turned up, $150 million to $250 million in around 2005, lowballed his net worth, he said it damaged his reputation. We went to court. The suit was dismissed. We stood our ground. He appealed. And it was affirmed. We did a great deposition during that time.
COOPER: I have never met anybody who is at whatever level of finances he's at, and he's obviously at a very high level, but who talks about it as much as he does. Does -- has it always been like that with him?
O'BRIEN: It has always been like that. He's an amazing self promoter. I think he's more P.T. Barnum than Steve Jobs. But I also think when someone is constantly talking about how wealthy they are, how big they are, how successful they are, underlying it is a lot of insecurity. And I think that's what propels some of this forward with him.
COOPER: Is his business a lot different than people realize?
O'BRIEN: Oh, completely different. And I think the media thus far has been complicit in this sort of helium loft that he is enjoying, because the reality is he is not the biggest real estate developer in Manhattan. There are people like Jerry Spire (ph), Donald is not even in that class. He made a hash of the casino companies. You know he has done nice--
COOPER: He says he pulled out of Atlantic City just at the right time?
O'BRIEN: Atlantic City, he could have made so much more of those properties in Atlantic City when he controlled them at a time when Atlantic City was rolling in dough. He didn't.
COOPER: A lot of people don't realize this. He licensed, and correct me if I am wrong, he licenses his name to buildings all around the world. That is a big part of his business.
O'BRIEN: A big part of his business. He gets a fee each year for doing that. But that doesn't mean he owns the building. Your neighboring tower right here, Trump International at Columbus Circle, is not owned by Donald.
COOPER: So if his name is on a building doesn't necessarily mean he owns it.
O'BRIEN: Correct. That's correct.
COOPER: Jeffrey, a lot of people like that Donald Trump is so wealthy. And I don't know if it is an aspirational thing, I don't know if it means that they believe he is, you know, above special interests. They like the fact.
LORD: A combination.
COOPER: -- his brashness. Go ahead.
LORD: Yes, a combination of the two. You know, when he talks about the American dream, or making America rich again, you know, the American people historically have always wanted to better themselves. The oldest story in America is about how parents want to build a better world so their children can do better than they do. That's very aspirational. Donald Trump has done a lot better than his father did. His father did a lot better than his father, who was a German immigrant. So I think he really touches a nerve with this. They look at him and they see the success. And to be perfectly candid, I think they see themselves.
O'BRIEN: I would take issue with that notion he has done a lot better than his father did. Fred Trump was an authentic entrepreneur. He built a substantial body of real estate holdings in the outer boroughs in New York, which Donald inherited. That money kept Donald aloft during periods when he was going to crash and burn. Donald was not and has never been the entrepreneur that Fred was. He was a much better self-promoter than Fred. But I would really take issue with the idea that --
LORD: The difference -- the difference, Tim, I think is, you know, my family comes from New York. And there is a huge difference between doing real estate in Brooklyn and Queens and doing it big time in Manhattan.
O'BRIEN: Jeffrey, that is what I would point out. In Manhattan, he hasn't done it big time in the same league as the Tischmans, the Spiers, the Dursts. We can go on--
LORD: Comparing him to his father, we were comparing him to his father?
O'BRIEN: I'm saying what he has done in Manhattan doesn't compare to what his father did in Queens. That is my point.
COOPER: Tim, where do you see this going? There are a lot of people who said look, he will not want to enter the race, he's not going to want to release his financials. He did. He has entered the race. Do you believe he is in it to win it, do you believe he's in it for as long as he can?
O'BRIEN: I think he is in this because the reason he is in it, is he loves the attention. I think he has no intention of leaving. I think the idea of the media waiting for him to find an offramp and leave -- look, the Iowa caucuses are in January. He has a very small operation in Iowa, some stuff in South Carolina and New Hampshire. He doesn't need to win delegates. He just wants to stay in the spotlight.
COOPER: Jeffrey, you believe he is in this to win?
LORD: Yes, I do. Yes, I do. I mean, why go through this? The notion that -- he is famous. He is internationally famous. You don't have to, in his case he doesn't have to run for president to be any more famous. He really, really --
O'BRIEN: That is precisely the point. He is in it because he enjoys the attention. He has done it twice before.
COOPER: Jeffrey, you would acknowledge this has brought him a level of attention globally that he probably has not had before. There is a level of interest in him, you know, there has always been interest in him, but it's definitely at a heightened level. We got to leave it there. Jeffrey Lord, great to have you on, Tim O'Brien. Fascinating stuff.
Still ahead. Breaking news. By the way, we're going to have more on Trump in our next hour. A lot more of that interview. Breaking news in the Sandra Bland case. A newly released document reveals she tried to kill herself last year. The holding facility, the jail she was sent to, knew that because she told them. There is new outrage over the traffic stop that landed her in jail, where she died three days later. The officer who arrested her now under criminal investigation. I also talked to Donald Trump about this case and what he thinks of how the officer treated her. More on that ahead.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: He just looked very aggressive. I didn't like his demeanor. I thought it was terrible, to be honest with you. I am a huge fan of the police. I think the police have to be given back power. But this guy was overly aggressive. Terribly aggressive.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Breaking news in the Sandra Bland case. According to the sheriff in Waller County in Texas, Ms. Bland told jail officials as she was being booked that she had previously tried to kill herself. Three days later, Ms. Bland, 28 years old, was found dead in her cell. Authorities say she hanged herself. The district attorney as we reported is treating her death as a murder investigation. But just before we went on air last night, authorities released a dash-cam video of the traffic stop that ended with Ms. Bland in handcuffs. In my interview with Donald Trump today, I asked him about that stop.
COOPER: Sandra Bland is a woman, an African-American woman, who was pulled over in Texas.
TRUMP: I saw that.
COOPER: I will not ask you specifics, I can't -- you can't be expected to look at everything. But pulled over for allegedly changing signals (sic). Dashcam video has now been released. A lot of African-Americans, a lot of people are very upset about that. To African-Americans in this country, there is a lot of people who believe they're treated differently by police, do you believe that? There is a problem with that?
TRUMP: I hope not. But I will tell you, I saw that clip on your show, by the way. I thought it was terrible. I thought he was so aggressive. It was a traffic signal, as I understand it. And who gets out of a car for a traffic signal? I haven't been pulled over in a while, actually. But seriously. He just looked very aggressive. I didn't like his demeanor. I thought it was terrible, to be honest with you. I am a huge fan of the police. I think the police have to be given back power. But this guy was overly aggressive. Terribly aggressive.
COOPER: Do you think that happens to African-Americans more than it does to you or I?
TRUMP: I hope it doesn't, but it might. I have a great relationship with African-Americans, as you possibly have heard. I just have great respect for them. And they like me. I like them. The answer is, it possibly does, it shouldn't. And it is very sad. If the case is -- I will say, though, in this case, I watched that so closely. I watched it a few times. He was terrible.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Glitches in the video released last night raise questions about whether it had been edited. Authorities said there were technical problems when they uploaded the dashcam video. Today they released a corrected version. About 3:00 minutes shorter than the original. Tonight the question of how exactly Sandra Bland died is still very much a mystery. But a short time ago, officials released the intake screening form for Ms. Bland. Ryan Young has details.
RYAN YOUNG, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Official documents show that when Sandra Bland arrived at the Waller County jail, she told jail staff she previously tried committing suicide. Jail intake forms released to CNN show that Bland said she tried to commit suicide using pills in 2014 after losing a baby. Waller County Sheriff says the investigation shows no foul play, and that all the evidence points to Bland taking her own life.
SHERIFF GLENN SMITH: There is absolutely no doubt in my mind. Now, as I stated yesterday, I eagerly, I want the Texas Rangers to do the investigation, I want the FBI monitoring the investigation. I want the district attorney to stay independent.
YOUNG: Despite the sheriff's public statements, the family contests the claim that Bland was depressed.
CANNON LAMBERT, BLAND FAMILY ATTORNEY: I can tell you that we take issue with the notion that she was suffering from depression. She was never clinically diagnosed, as this family understand. Everybody has hills and valleys. And the bottom line is that there was no medication we are aware of she was taking to address any sort of epilepsy or depression.
YOUNG: But in her own Facebook post earlier this year, Sandra Bland addressed the issue.
BLAND: I am suffering from something that some of you all may be dealing with right now. It is a little bit of depression as well as PTSD.
SHARON COOPER, SISTER: She says I am struggling with some things. But I am anchored in God. And I want you to know no matter what you look like, no matter what part of life you come from, I come before you to say, we're dealing with an issue you may have, which to me is just courageous.
YOUNG: But this intense dashcam video shows part of what took place during the traffic stop of Sandra Bland. Adding more fuel to the pointed questions from her loved ones.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Step out or I will remove you.
YOUNG: The trooper now on paid leave. The family says, the force used was excessive. Especially for being charged with an improper lane change.
COOPER: I simply feel like the officer was picking on her. Point- blank, period. I personally think that is petty.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get out of the car now!
BLAND: Why am I being apprehended? You're trying to give me a ticket-- YOUNG: In his report, trooper Brian Encinia writes Sandra Bland was arrested for assault on a public servant. The trooper writes that Bland began swinging at him with her elbows after she was removed from the car. Which is not captured on video. But a cell phone did pick up part of the exchange that was caught off the dash camera.
BLAND: You just slammed my head into the ground.
YOUNG: Investigators say they are still trying to gain access to Sandra Bland's cell phone which may have also captured parts of the arrest.
COOPER: Ryan, I said the video was three minute shorter that had been released once the glitches were fixed or taken out, why was it shorter if it was a question of glitches in the first video?
YOUNG: Anderson, a lot of people have that question. What we are told is the video was actually looping. When they got it all set up and straight, that loop was taken out of it, and that three minutes was dissipated from that time, because of the way they fixed the time line of the video.
COOPER: Ryan Young. I appreciate the reporting on this continuing story. Just ahead, we'll dig deeper on this story, on the breaking news in the Sandra Bland case. I'll ask our panel about the steps that should have been taken after jail officials learned she had attempted suicide in the past. We'll also dig into the way the arresting officer handled that routine traffic stop.
COOPER: More breaking news in the Sandra Bland case. We just got an audiotape of a voicemail she left her friend. A call she made in jail the day after her arrest. The audio comes from affiliate KTRK. Listen.
BLAND: Hey, this is me. I'm -- I was just able to see the judge. I don't really know. They got me held on a $5,000 bond. I'm still just at a loss for words honestly about this whole process. How this switching lanes with no signal turned into all of this. I don't even know. But I'm still here, so I guess call me back when you can.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: So her arrest was on July 10th, which was a Friday. That would have been a Saturday, if that's the day she left it, that was a day after her arrest. In addition as Ryan Young reported, a moment ago, just released jail intake document contains details about a suicide attempt Ms. Bland made last year that she told them about. Evidence it would seem that the jail officials were aware she had tried to kill herself in the past. Ms. Bland's death three days after her arrest during a routine traffic stop in Texas is being treated as a murder investigation. Authorities say that she hanged herself. And as Ryan Young reported, the preliminary autopsy results are expected to show a massive amount of marijuana, that is a quote, in Ms. Bland's system, and also evidence of cutting, self-mutilation on her arms.
Joining me now -- or one arm. CNN law enforcement analyst, former NYPD detective, Harry Houck. CNN legal analyst, former federal prosecutor Sunny Hostin, also CNN contributor and forensic scientist, professor Lawrence Kobilinsky. The idea that she had, Dr. Kobilinsky, marijuana in her system. How long does that stay in the system? Does that really matter?
DR. LAWRENCE KOBILINSKY: It really does not. It's a red herring. If anything, it would have mellowed her out. It wouldn't have made her more aggressive. I think we shouldn't focus our attention on that.
COOPER: Although if she is having psychological issues, and her family is saying she is not taking any medication, one might make an argument she was masking that with -- with narcotics?
KOBILINSKY: It could be. People who are depressed tend to take all kind of drugs to mask the depression.
The fact that she was hurting herself, cutting herself, is, is another indication that she was heading in the direction of suicide. Cutting is not suicidal. But it means that the person is hurting oneself, punishing oneself, you end up feeling guilty, it makes you more depressed. It's a pathway to suicide.
COOPER: Sunny, the fact that Ms. Bland told authorities when at the jail that she had attempted suicide in the past should she have been on a suicide watch?
SUNNY HOSTIN, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: There is no question. Not only should she have been on the suicide watch. She shouldn't have been in an isolated cell alone. She certainly shouldn't have been in a cell that had a trash bag liner, anything that she could have used to do harm to herself. And I think that there is just so much liability here, Anderson all the way around. Because when you look at this dash-cam video. And at this point I've looked at it probably over a dozen times. It is very clear to me that, there was really no grounds for an arrest for this woman, and then she ends up three days later dead.
COOPER: You know, Harry, it is interesting. The arrest affidavit states that she was arrested for assault of public servant. But the officer told her that she was under arrest while she was still in the car well before any alleged assault could have occurred?
HOUCK: Right. That (INAUDIBLE) when I read the report this afternoon. The fact is what was he arresting her for? Because she wasn't - you know, she didn't commit the assault until after she was handcuffed, in the sight where we couldn't see. So, when he was pulling her out of the car, and she asked, am I under arrest? And he said yes, where's that charge? So, looking at the affidavit here, I'm looking at this, and I just see the assault. Where is the summons for the ...
COOPER: He clearly got annoyed. There was - he was annoyed very early on from, from what he perceived her attitude to be.
COOPER: She clearly was angry, annoyed as well for being pulled over. But what seemed to be the last straw for him was her smoking. He asked her to stop smoking. She basically said I'm in my car, I can smoke. That seemed to be the final straw for her?
HOUCK: Well, that definitely appears that way.
HOUCK: Yes, it does.
COOPER: Doctor Kobilinsky, are for medical examiners what do you look for to make sure that this was in fact a suicide?
KOBILINSKY: Well, first of all, I think you have to make sure that a person in a cell could hang oneself. In other words, was the ceiling at a certain level where she could stand on a cot and reach up there and put the plastic bag over this partition? You know, so ...
COOPER: People can hang themselves even sitting down on a door knob.
KOBILINSKY: That's true. In fact, this was an example of a partial hanging. Her feet were on the ground. And, most people that commit suicide in jail do it by hanging. The thing it is most of those people are male Caucasians. She's 28, female. And black. Somewhat different than what one would expect. But she showed a lot of signs that she was suicidal. I agree totally with Sunny. She should have been on suicide watch. Nothing should have been in that cell.
COOPER: I mean and Sunny, I mean no matter what happened in that cell, you got to keep coming back to what happened in the altercation with this officer that -- she says she pulled over because she felt the officer was speeding up behind her she wanted to get out of the way. He says she didn't use a turn change lane signal. But the fact that it escalated to an arrest is ...
HOSTIN: It's remarkable. Because the officer in this case is the professional. He should be trained in de-escalation, not escalation. And it's really clear to me that once the investigation of that traffic violation was concluded he could not lawfully detain her. Telling an officer that you are not going to put out your cigarette or extinguish your cigarette certainly isn't ground for an arrest. When he asked her to get out of the car, stepping out of the car. He didn't have the right to do that. She didn't have to get out of the car.
HOUCK: He did have the right to do that. HOSTIN: No, he didn't. When he physically removed her.
HOUCK: Yes, he did. And you know that ...
HOUCK: He did have the right to say that.
HOSTIN: He didn't have the right to do that.
HOUCK: Yes, he does.
HOSTIN: No, he didn't.
HOUSTIN: That was unlawful.
HOUCK: Yes, he does.
HOUSTIN: That was unlawful, and you know that.
HOUCK: That is not unlawful.
COOPER: Harry, why do you believe he had the right to do that?
HOUCK: Because once you are stopped. An officer can, can articulate the fact that I got her out of the vehicle because of maybe for my own safety or I wanted to write the summons. Now, it probably didn't - This probably wasn't ...
HOSTIN: And that's why it wasn't lawful.
HOUCK: But at the same time.
HOSTIN: You know that's true, Harry.
HOUCK: You must and you know that, OK, counselor? You know that, you must comply with the police officer's wishes.
HOSTIN: He did not - he didn't ...
HOUCK: You must still comply.
COOPER: You are saying you don't have to comply.
HOSTIN: No, he did not fear for his safety. He had no lawful reason for asking her to get out of the car. He physically got her out of the car. That was unlawful. He said he was giving her a lawful order. He wasn't. When he arrested her, he said she was under arrest. He didn't give a reason for his arrest. All of that is against protocol.
HOUCK: You agreed last night. HOSTIN: All of that is against protocol. And that is why he is now
on administrative leave.
That is why the DPS has said that he did not follow the protocol because everything about that arrest was unlawful and you know it.
HOSTIN: And you know it.
(CROSSTALK) HOUCK: Is totally different.
COOPER: We got to continue this in the next hour. We are going to have more on this in our next hour.
COOPER: Sunny, Doctor Kobilinsky, Harry Houck. Thank you very much.
Coming up, another live hour of "360". As I said, more of my interview with Donald Trump including what he told me about his upcoming trip tomorrow to the U.S. - Mexico border and what he has to say about John McCain's record on veterans.