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Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees
State of Emergency in Effect in Ferguson, Missouri; Donald Trump Standing By Remarks about Fox News' Megyn Kelly; Exclusive interview with Roger Stone; What Explains Trump's Temperament?; Policing for Profit. Aired 8-9p ET
Aired August 10, 2015 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[20:00:00] ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: Good evening. Thanks for joining us.
Tonight Donald Trump is standing by remarks about FOX News' Megyn Kelly that he moves and fellow Republicans say go way over the line. They say his war of word with Kelly is offensive to women hurting the party. He says they got it all wrong. And she should be apologizing to him.
We have all the late details and that including my conversation with Roger Stone, up until this weekend a top Trump insider, now he is an outsider fired or resign, depending on who you believe. He argues all the spats that Trump is getting into is detracting from his larger message. We will get to all of that and new comments from Hillary Clinton about Trump.
But we begin with breaking news out of Ferguson. A state of emergency in effect on the streets of Ferguson, Missouri, in fact, all of St. Louis County. Already today, protesters blocked a stretch of interstate highway just outside town. A year after the shooting of Michael Brown and all the protests that followed. Tensions once again, tonight, dangerously high.
What began as a peaceful demonstration yesterday turned chaotic, ugly, very nearly deadly. Shots fired. Apparently between some in the crowd and then at and from police. The sound caught on camera as our Sara Sidner was interviewing Ferguson's interim police chief.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We just want to be as patient as possible.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Gunfire.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Police hit the alleged gunman, an African-American teenager. He is in the hospital in rough shape, facing serious charges. And as you might imagine Ferguson is once again on edge.
Sara Sidner is there for us. She joins us with the latest on all of it.
So first of all, what's happening on the ground tonight or what are the plans for tonight?
SARA SIDNER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It's interesting because today was supposed to be, Anderson, a day of civil disobedience. And it is certainly has been about 56 people were arrested earlier in the day. There were out at the federal courthouse. And the idea was to get arrested. They were talking about civil disobedience. They wanted to put that out there. They wanted to try to push further this idea of justice for black people when it comes to how they're treated by police. And so, many people were including Cornell West arrested and though they have been most of them released at this time.
Then you, of course, mention what happened on interstate 70 during rush hour. A car driving through that as well. And a lot of the protesters chasing a car that drives through. You will start seeing that throughout the evening. That was the plan for today. They told everyone on the weekend that the weekend would be peaceful protests. And that on Monday it would be a little different with civil disobedience their top priority - Anderson.
COOPER: And so, last night when the shooting began, what happened? We just saw you on air talking to the interim police chief?
SIDNER: Yes, you know last night I actually got caught on the street. I was coming back from a function, where there was a lot of people inside a church all talking about situation here in Ferguson very calmly and together. As I drove down the street, I could not get through. I ended up seeing the chief standing there.
There was a typical what you'd would see here, a line of police and a line of protestors. Protesters yelling at police. Police saying time to disperse. But as of this going on, the police chief was there, he is the new interim chief been here only a couple weeks. And suddenly gunshots going on and on and on, a major barrage of fire. And what we heard then after that from police is that that actually, a come of people shooting at one another. And then after that police responded. So there was another blast of gunshots. Ended up shooting an 18-year- old who is in the hospital and in critical condition now. And then, a third volley of fire, gunshots in the area in the very neighborhood where Michael Brown was shot and killed exactly one year ago.
COOPER: And I understand after the shooting, a young woman who knew the man who was shot, fainted, right?
SIDNER: Yes, you know, we are there. A very raw, very emotional scene. And it is very chaotic. And as we walked up there was a young woman. And she was howling, saying the name of the person who had been shot. Let me let you listen.
(INAUDIBLE)
SIDNER: Clearly distraught, Anderson. Clearly, completely emotionally exhausted and just so emotional. But then when police started coming, everyone start to run, trying to pick her up, and screaming, stop, stop she needs help. She was saying the name, what we found out later, of the person who had been shot. And who had been critically wounded. His name is Tyrone Harris, 18 years old and now faces about almost a dozen charges including using a firearm against police -- Anderson.
COOPER: All right, Sara Sidner. We will be watching what happens tonight. Thank you. We will be keep following Sara throughout the next two hours that we are on the air tonight. We'll check back with Sara later.
Now, though, Donald Trump no apologies from him today, certainly not or over the weekend, for remarks he made about FOX debate moderator Megyn Kelly. In fact, he says she owes him an apology. Mr. Trump lit the fuse right here on CNN a day into his post-debate feud with her.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[20:05:25] DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: She starts asking me all sorts of ridiculous questions, and you know, you can see there was blood coming out of her eyes. Blood coming out of her eyes. Blood coming out of her wherever. But she was, in my opinion, she was off-base.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Well that was Friday night. It touched a nerve among conservatives. RedState's Erick Erickson disinvited Trump from a high profile candidate forum over the weekend. Mr. Trump respond in a tweet calling Erick Erickson, in his words, a major sleaze and buffoon. By the weekend, some of Trump's GOP rivals were weighing in about his comments about Kelly.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CARLY FIORINA (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: They were completely inappropriate and offensive comments. Period.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We all know they are reprehensible. And in my view, just one of many reasons why Donald Trump is unqualified and unfit to be president of the United States.
SEN. RAND PAUL (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I don't think we should reward vulgarity. I don't think vulgarity equates with insight.
JEB BUSH (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Give me a break? I mean, are we -- do we want to win? Do we want to insult 53 percent of all voters? What Donald Trump said is wrong.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Well, not surprisingly Mr. Trump does not agree with either the reaction or the notion that he was talking about anything inappropriate. When we was referencing blood and Megyn Kelly.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: You could see there was an anger spewing out of her and this is what I was talking about. Blood pouring out of her eyes. And then I went on a little further. And I then said, you know what, you know, later on. Then I went on a little bit further and I didn't even finish my statement. That's the amazing thing, because I would have said nose and ears because it's a very common thing when you say blood pouring out of.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: He went on to tweet this today about Megyn Kelly.
Oh, really, check out innocent @MegynKelly, discussion @HowardStern show five years ago. I am the innocent pure one!
For the record, during the show on Howard Stern, Ms. Kelly talked about pregnancy and breast size and the effect on her and her husband's six life. So no apologies from Donald Trump.
Plenty to talk about, though, with our panel. CNN senior political reporter, Nia-Malika Henderson, national tea party leader and Trump supporter Katrina Pierson, also Amanda Carpenter, former communications director for Senator Ted Cruz.
Nia, what do you make, first of all, of Trump's continued defiance on this? He is clearly not backing down or apologizing?
NIA-MALIKA HENDERSON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL REPORTER: Yes. I mean, this is classic Trump. I mean, he did this with John McCain. Never really apologized for that. Didn't really hurt them. You know, his brand is bluster. His brand is being in your face. His brand is no apologies.
So I don't think it is any surprise that not only is he not apologizing, you hear some of the folks who were supporting him, basically parroting the talking points that he has, you know that he is going on at this point whether on cable news or on twitter.
And so, I think that is a sign at least so far if you just talk to folks who like him that this might not damage him among those core folks who like him and in states like New Hampshire and Iowa. But we will have to see. Just polling will happen at some point. We are going to hear more from him. And you see, of course, Democrats really taking this and running with it.
I think one of the thing that is interesting here is that he is in some ways turning FOX into the establishment, right? And so, now a FOX and Megyn Kelly is establishment. And now, he is the, the sort of up-start politician going against them and that is a reversal I think for FOX.
COOPER: Katrina, to Nia's point, you are a supporter of Trump. Did the comments offend you? Do you believe it is a mistake for him to go after Megyn Kelly in this way?
KATRINA PIERSON, TRUMP SUPPORTER: Well, I do support Trump being in this race. However I will say that I was watching CNN during that entire discussion and as a woman, nothing passed me. I didn't catch anything. It was after the fact when political operatives from other campaigns started pushing out this narrative of a menstrual cycle, something he never said. And now, they're calling on him to apologize. I'm just curious up to what he supposed to apologize for. If he is supposed to go and apologize for something he never said.
COOPER: Well, actually, I guess those who want him to apologize would say, well, if it is not for that, then it is for retweeting somebody who called her a bimbo. He retweeted that. Is that something that a presidential candidate should be doing?
PIERSON: Well, I think that's debatable? Is that something a presidential candidate would do? Well, I think one is doing it. But here's the thing. We have polls that have come out throughout the weekend and Mr. Trump has not lost ground. People are tired of politicians apologizing for everything. The traditional Republican is usually tucking their tail and apologizing before they ever do anything wrong. So people aren't going to lose faith in him.
[20:10:01] COOPER: So as president, if he called a reporter female a bimbo or retweeted somebody calling a female reporter a bimbo you would be OK with that?
PIERSON: Well, he is probably wouldn't be doing his own twitter if he was president. But it wasn't retweet. He did not call any one a bimbo. He has been on social media, very active for years. This is not surprised. This is Donald Trump. And it is all baked into the numbers.
COOPER: OK.
Amanda, what about that? I mean - and also, Amanda, what do you think, how much does this tiff with FOX and Megyn Kelly and by the way the tiff with FOX apparently seems to be repair, he is going to be on FOX in the morning. I guess, a statement was made by Roger Ailes to a web site saying that, you know, they had a conversation and they seem to be moving forward. How much do you think this is working in Donald Trump's favor?
AMANDA CARPENTER, FORMER COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR FOR SEN. TED CRUZ: Well, first of all, there is no question that he promoted the notion that Megyn Kelly is a bimbo by retweeting that to three million followers. I am not really interested in Donald Trump's explanation of what he meant. The thing is when you are campaigning to run for president it doesn't matter what you say, it's what voters hear and what they believe you meant. And many people believe that Donald Trump is brash, and craft, and has a long history of making insulting statements towards women.
So he is kind of getting what he deserves whether he meant it or not. I personally think he meant it. As for the continuing saga with FOX News and this and that. I don't think a winning strategy to go after the press. I have never seen a candidate of any office so violently attack a reporter for asking fair, and reasonable question that have a direct correlation to his record. So I can't imagine that pans out for him.
COOPER: Nia, you know, clearly the Democrats and Hillary Clinton is trying to say, well, you know, what Donald Trump is saying offensive. But it speak for what the entire GOP believes. Do you believe that that message actually sticks? Does it affect the party as a whole? There some who say most Republicans don't actually see Trump as a quote-unquote "Republican." That even though he is running as GOP candidate not career politician doesn't actually fall under the traditional Republican structure?
HENDERSON: Well, yes. It sort of hard to make that argument for Republicans when in 2012 you had Mitt Romney stand up next to Donald Trump and say he was delighted and honored to get his endorsement. It is very much after Donald Trump became really king of the birthers and questioning Obama's birth place and calling to release his birth certificate.
I think Republicans are very much trying to throw him overboard at this point. And in some ways that became a little easier when he raised his hand on that debate stage and said he wouldn't rule out the independent run. But I think you are going to see Democrats pretty effectively be able to tie him to the party based On the Record, based On the Record that they embraced him for years certainly before this. And certainly in 2012.
But I think it is going to be hard. I thought Hillary Clinton was in her element today when she basically said, listen, Donald Trump's comments were outrageous. But let's talk about the policies of the GOP and what they said what they want to do in terms of women's policies in terms of things like minimum wage and abortion. So she really hit hard. This is the good moment for her that has she was able to make an argument that you will hear Democrats make all I think through this race.
PIERSON: Well, you are right. Well, I mean, she is right. This is Hillary Clinton's element. She is the war on women stand up person. And she is going to push this no matter who is going to be on the GOP side. And I think it's fair to say, I don't think anyone can say that Donald Trump represents the GOP. I think it is pretty obvious the GOP wants him out of the race. And besides I will talk about Hillary Clinton and the war on women when she starts talking about the Democrat all white primary.
COOPER: Katrina, do you worry though that your candidate is thin- skinned? Does he come off to you as thin-skinned? Clearly, among a lot of supporters he comes off as tough, tough guy, fights back, fights back harder. He is, you know, hit once. He is going to hit back twice. I certainly get that. Critics of his say, look as president, you got to have a pretty thick skin. And you are going to have reporters asking you all manner of questions. Is this what we are really are going to see if Donald Trump is elected president, this kind of -- constant, you know, enemies list -- growing enemies list of reporters or anybody who is slighted?
PIERSON: I don't know if that is such a bad thing. But, is he thin skinned? I don't think so. Did he get defensive? Absolutely. He thought the question was out of bound because the questions asked of him about women were based off a reality TV show, he is on television show character, not the man he is. And so, that's why he take it the way that he did.
Again, this is Donald Trump. Millions of people, already know his personality. And that's all they baked into the numbers as we see today. That has not hurt him yet. And I don't think it is going to hurt him in the future.
COOPER: Katrina Pierson, great to have you on. Amanda Carpenter, always and Nia-Malika Henderson as well.
One thing is certain Donald Trump is not afraid to speak his mind. He will do it again tomorrow morning on CNN's "NEW DAY" the interview at 7:00 a.m. eastern.
A lot more ahead, including a look inside the Trump campaign from a political strategist who was until the weekend top campaign Insider. He says he quit. Donald Trump says he was fired. Roger Stone joins us next.
And later, outside Dallas. Surveillance camera, catches the act of young man vandalizing cars. Moments later, he is dead. Shot and killed by police, who are now facing tough questions. The story when we continue.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:18:55] COOPER: Tonight, the Trump campaign is without the services of a very well-known Republican strategist. And we got a rare window into how the campaign operates and how a seasoned professional sees it. Roger Stone's resume goes back to Bush-Gore 2000, cofounding the national conservative political action committee all the way to the 1972 Nixon-McGovern campaign.
Until the weekend he was a top Trump adviser. Mr. Trump says he fired him. Mr. Stone says he quit over Mr. Trump's recent tone. I spoke with Mr. Stone shortly before the program began.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: So what happened? I mean, Trump campaign says they fired you. You say that's not the case.
ROGER STONE, FORMER TRUMP STRATEGIST: Well it's not the case. And frankly, I kind of previewed my resignation letter to five of my colleagues in the business prior to sending it because I wanted to know what they thought know. And they were good enough to confirm they had seen the letter for "The New York Times" and "Politico" which I think proves that I did in fact resign.
COOPER: Why did you want to resign?
STONE: Well, that is because I was frustrated. I frankly think that Trump is much better than this. I remain a very strong supporter.
COOPER: Right. You have been publically say even after all of this, you are not talking bad against Trump.
STONE: We go back a very long time. I have -- Donald Trump came to my wedding. I went to two of his. I was at both his parents' funeral. His brother-in-law's funeral. Helped make his wife a federal judge, a very respective federal judge in New Jersey. I have great affection for Trump and the Trump family. I have wanted him to run for president since 1988.
[20:20:13] COOPER: So your issue has been, what, post-debate, he is getting into these spats with Megyn Kelly and others?
STONE: Yes. I just think that it is a distraction, it is a cul-de- sac. American presidential politics is about big picture issues and picking a few memorable phrases. Now, he is running in a race with 15 career politicians and very one smart brain surgeon and it as great contrast. People want to hear the Trump vision for America. How will he make America great? He knows what he wants to do, he just needs to articulate.
COOPER: Why do you think he is going down to this what you call cul- de-sacs? It is just part of his personality he cannot help but fight back against people who he believes have (INAUDIBLE).
STONE: Perhaps his advisers don't realize that the role of a celebrity is different than the role of the candidate. I frankly think by going rogue and telling you what I really think he needs to do. I am doing this out of loyalty to Trump. And I am not going to argue with a bunch of 40-year-old advance men. This is within of the great tensions in American politics thousands. There is always tension between the handlers, the merchandisers and advance men and the men of ideas. Politics is about idea. Trump has big ideas. I have seen his big ideas.
COOPER: Does it matter for those who are supporting Donald Trump, and there are many right now, looking at his poll numbers, does it matter that he doesn't get into specifics? Again, even in the FOX debate, they kept -- Chris Wallace kept trying to press him on where is your evidence that the Mexican government is forcing people across? It is one thing for the Mexican government not be doing enough to stop people come across to actually be sending people across and sort of like the Cuban government did, getting people out of Cuba years ago which Trump has compared it to. He doesn't have evidence of that. Does that matter you think? Or is Trump -- does he defy the law of political gravity?
STONE: Well, so far he has. On the other hand, there has to be enough meat on his bones for people to judge that he really does have a plan. And he really does have a way forward. But frankly, leadership is more important than that. I really think the contrast here has to do with the fact that Trump is financially independent and therefore the only one I can name, kind of like Ross Perot in his day who will stand up to the entrenched interests. He doesn't need any lobbyists or super PACs or billionaires to finance his super PACs because he is a billionaire.
COOPER: You know, I was reading -- I told you, I was reading this Jeff Toobin article that he wrote about you in New York back in 2008. And Donald Trump was quoted in the article calling you a stone cold loser.
STONE: We know better than that. COOPER: But I mean, he then hired you again?
STONE: Well, because we had a brief falling out over a fellow named Eliot Spitzer who I believed was corrupt. I will remind that you he took a prostitute across five state lines which a New York state Supreme Court judge has just gotten out of jail for. He was a Republican though. So we had a brief falling out regarding Spitzer and my acting to remove him from public life.
COOPER: But you were willing to overlook that.
STONE: We were reconciled. And I remain a Trump fan and supporter.
COOPER: How do you see this playing out? I mean, Donald Trump has talked about, you know, not ruling out a third party challenge. Do you believe that he would actually consider that?
STONE: Well, let's be more specific about what he said on the stump which he did not say in the debate which is at least three of the major candidates according to "The New York Times" were in secret discussions to boycott the FOX debate if he were included. In 15 states the Republican establishment can just keep him off the ballot with the stroke of a pen. If he is treated fair, if he is given a level playing field and a fair shot at the nomination, no, he won't run third party.
He is front-runner for the Republican nomination. But if the Republican establishment decided they want to screw him, they don't want to give him equal access, he has the leverage, and that is the word he used to run third party. And that's $100 million escapade.
I got Gary Johnson, working with others in the libertarian party on the ballot in 48 states three years ago. We would have been in on all states, but we got bad judicial decisions, partisan judicial decisions in two states. Trump has the capacity to do that if he wants to. That's not his preference. He has made that clear.
COOPER: Trump used the word leverage during the debate and it got a lot of criticism for it. What do you think that means to Donald Trump? What do you see want to use that leverage for?
STONE: To make sure that he had a fair shot at the nomination. This is not about Trump and Trump's ego. This is about making sure he isn't treated unfairly in the Republican dust up.
COOPER: Let me ask you about ego because can a guy who fights hard and pushes back hard, if somebody in his view insults them, even a reporter asking a tough question, can somebody like that have the temperament to be president? Can he be presidential?
STONE: I think it is a question of roles. Look, there is a Trump maxim which is also a Stone maxim. If somebody hits you, hit them back but harder. I agree with that. But not if you are a candidate running for the president of the United States. It is different to be a real estate developer or a mogul or celebrity television star. But in the realm of politics you would be better off to ignore those criticisms and move back on to your main message --.
COOPER: It's time wasted.
[20:25:00] STONE: Yes, in my views, it is just not productive. And we have already seen when he talks big picture he zooms to number one in the polls. And it appears today at least until we see more survey research to be holding.
COOPER: Who's making the decisions in a Donald Trump campaign? Is it -- I'm fascinated by his organization. Does he listen to other people? Take it into consideration? Or just say, I'm, it's 4:00 a.m., I'm sending out a tweet?
STONE: Well, first of all, he is the decision maker. Donald Trump is not scripted. He is not coached. He is not handled. What you see is what you get. He makes these decisions. And he has on many occasions risen to the occasion. He is a clutch player. And he is under pressure now.
I was very encouraged by the campaign announcing this morning that they would be putting out a series of position papers that he has inspired. I know because I worked on the papers. But they're not mine. They're his. He has the ideas for the country and he will lay them out. But the sooner the better.
COOPER: Mr. Stone, great to have you on. Thank you.
STONE: Great to be here. And for those of us who are Trump loyalists, our hash tag handle is #yuge - y-u-g-e.
COOPER: Yuge.
STONE: Yuge.
COOPER: Thank you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Roger Stone.
Just ahead, more insight into what makes Donald Trump, Donald Trump. Why he says what he says and whether it helps or hurts him as a leader. David Gergen has written about it suggesting Mr. Trump is a narcissist. Dr. Drew Pinsky deals with all kinds of personalities. David and Dr. Drew join us next.
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[20:30:00]
COOPER: We have been touching on it not just all night, but ever since Donald Trump said he is running for president, so have his opponents. The question of tone and temperament. I asked him about it on several occasions, and senior political analyst David Gergen wrote about it today in a CNN.com piece, titled "what explains Donald Trump's arrogance?" In it he explores the idea of narcissistic leadership, which he points out actually has advantages as well as disadvantages. David Gergen joins us, so does Dr. Drew Pinsky, host of HLN's "Dr. Drew." David, it is a fascinating piece you wrote, and you point out that societies actually need narcissistic leaders because they tend to be strong people who have a lot of charisma, a powerful drive to get results, what psychoanalysts call productive narcissists. What's the downside to those kind of people?
DAVID GERGEN, CNN ANALYST: Well, I drew heavily, Anderson, upon Michael Maccoby, who was a psychoanalyst, he's been a corporate consultant to CEOs for many, many years, very successful, and a leadership guru. And as he points out, you know, as Freud said, there are productive narcissists, people who are strong leaders at times of turbulence. You know, the public is looking for someone look a Trump who presents a lot of strength.
The downside is that, in effect, the success can go to the head of a narcissist. And they sort of become not only self-obsessed, and self- absorbed, but they begin to go off the rails. They become socially isolated. They don't accept advice. They don't listen to others. They're distrustful. And then when they're attacked or someone seems to be threatening them verbally, they hit back really hard. All of those characteristics of course are what we are seeing with Donald Trump. I have seen him in his private moments when he is I think much more productive. But the Trump who has been in public fits that role of a narcissist you really have to wonder about. Has he created a trap for himself.
COOPER: Dr. Drew, it is interesting, to David's point. Donald Trump, when you are meeting with him one-on-one, when you are interviewing him, he can be incredibly charming. There is a great appeal to him. I enjoyed, I have done two interviews with him. And I have enjoyed the entire process. Even when he is pushing back hard on me, or, you know, saying something negative to me, it's, a pleasurable conversation. It is an interesting, stimulating conversation. Isn't any person who decide to run for president, or most people in public life, whether it is Donald Trump or somebody else, aren't they most likely narcissists, including most people on television?
DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN: Yes, I have the only published literature that shows that. That people, that's true, people who have narcissistic injuries early in life, this is a bid to manage those injuries. It doesn't mean you have to be a full blown narcissist?
COOPER: What do you mean narcissistic injuries?
PINSKY: Abandonment, neglect, certain sorts of insufficiencies in childhood that may cause people to have these narcissistic traits. And we're not talking about narcissistic disorders, we're talking about narcissistic traits. That can as David points out, be very, very useful in situations like this. You have got how to wonder whether he is amplifying some of his narcissistic traits publicly now, because what you have said about him in a private moment, suggests to me he doesn't have the greatest liability to being a narcissist, which is empathic failure. He is able to have a boundary between you and him, is able to deal with you respectfully, and with some degree of empathy. Lack of empathy is the single greatest liability of being a narcissist.
(CROSSTALK)
GERGEN: You have how to wonder whether Donald Trump has invented a public persona, someone he suddenly becomes on stage. And we see that with a lot of people. What -- it is absolutely true that -- that narcissists have often accomplished great things. Franklin Roosevelt, Winston Churchill, even Gandhi, the best, the most effective narcissists are ones who are, who have this narcissistic trait, but they -- they hide it, they take it, they anchor it so it is not well seen. Lincoln falls into that category. But you really have to wonder with Trump, mostly is it partly a public act, a public persona he has adopted over the years? And it works for him politically, why not keep doing it, even though it smashes a lot of the truths we hold in our heads about how a politician, and how a leader, especially a president, ought to behave.
COOPER: Drew, the term narcissism has obviously got a very negative connotation. But you say it is not, you don't think of it as a bad trait per se.
PINSKY: I really don't. It has liabilities like any trait. And it has strengths like any trait. If you are going to be a leader, you kind of have to have a certain amount of narcissism. You have to need other people. You have to have a vision, you have to sort of be able to have a great trust in your own vision for things. Where it starts to break down is when you get so absorbed in your own sense of things that you don't perceive reality on reality's terms, or you don't take input from people close to you.
[20:35:00]
COOPER: David, when I talked to Trump, I don't remember, the first time or the second time in the interviews I did with him, I asked him if he would change his tone when he became president? Do you think it is possible? He said he would. Do you think it's possible for somebody like him to change their tone?
GERGEN: I think he is going to find that if he really wants to win the nomination, and he does obviously have a more durable following than almost any pundit thought, then he is going to have to move. I thought it was a negative sign when he divorced Roger Stone. Michael Maccaby makes the argument that one of the things you need to do is stay anchored as a narcissist, you need a sidekick, you need a counselor, who can keep you anchored. Losing Stone I think was a mistake. But he has now made the signs. He is going to put out some position papers, he's going to do some of the things Roger Stone wanted him to do. And maybe he is starting to move in the direction of having some conventionality and calming down some. Which I think would serve him over time.
COOPER: Roger stone is a fascinating character, David.
GERGEN: He is. He is. I knew Roger Stone way back in Nixon days. He has evolved a great deal over time. Become a libertarian. You know, I think, I think what he said, that was a classy exit. It was like the way that, you know, it is, when you get one of these unconventional candidates look Ross Perot way back in the early '90s. Running against another Clinton. Ross Perot almost could have won that race. But he hired Ed Rollins, a Republican guru, and Rollins quit after two months. And did it in the same classy way Roger Stone has. But you know, Anderson, when you are one of these strategists, political consultants, you are riding a horse. You are a jockey on a horse. Some horses are runaway horses, you can't stay in the saddle very well.
COOPER: We're going to leave it there.
PINSKY: I was going to say, what they are, if they're narcissists, they're all huge.
COOPER: Huge. Exactly. David Gergen. Drew Pinsky. Thanks very much. Up next, an update on our breaking news. State of emergency in Ferguson, Missouri. After new violence tonight, protesters taking to the streets, still demanding changes a year after Michael Brown's death. And our investigation shows that even after a scathing report from the Justice Department months ago, the police and city have not made some crucial changes, ahead tonight.
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[20:41:00]
COOPER: Update on our breaking news. New tension in Ferguson, Missouri, tonight. The city and all of St. Louis County under a state of emergency. One year after the shooting death of Michael Brown. The anniversary of his death has spark new protests. Demonstrators say there's much that simply has not changed. So we did some digging and what we found was pretty surprising. An exclusive analysis by CNN Money shows that Ferguson is still pumping out thousands of new arrest warrants. Now, this continues despite a highly critical report from the Justice Department back in March. That report found that the Ferguson Police Department and municipal court were targeting low- income and minority residents with tickets and fines for minor offenses. The reason, it was not to enforce the law, but instead to boost the city's budget. Here is our senior investigative correspondent, Drew Griffin.
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DREW GRIFFIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The number astounding. The small St. Louis suburb of Ferguson has a population of just 21,000 people. In March it had outstanding arrest warrants for 16,000, including Veronica Ortega, technically wanted by the law -- for what?
VERONICA ORTEGA: Over a parked car I had in my driveway.
GRIFFIN: A warrant has been hanging over her head for three years.
ORTEGA: I said this is what happened.
GRIFFIN: When she moved into this house three years ago, this New York City transplant finally decided to buy a car. Single mother of three living on fixed income, she could afford the $500 car, but not, she says, the registration, license and insurance. So she parked it right here in her driveway. And within weeks, a code enforcement officer had written not one but two citations that led to a ticket.
ORTEGA: It was $102. So now, because it has been three years now, because I haven't paid that, they kept my I.D. as hostage. So now in order for me to get my I.D., because my I.D. is old, I would have to pay $102.
GRIFFIN: Ortega admits she could have solved the problem by registering her car in the first place. She could have saved up by now and paid the ticket. But Ortega says she is standing on principle. Willing to face arrest over a parked car she no longer owns. And she is not alone. In Ferguson, and many other small communities surrounding St. Louis, thousands face arrest for what initially were violations as small as owning delinquent cars, jaywalking, or even having an overgrown lawn. And in Ferguson, if you were arrested for an outstanding warrant, it's almost certain you were black. The Department of Justice found 96 percent of those arrested due to an outstanding warrant were African-American.
Critics call it policing for profit. And despite a scathing report by the Justice Department, which found the policing practices used in Ferguson have sawn deep mistrust between police and minorities, the ticketing, fines, and arrest warrants for those who don't pay, continue. The city has issued more than 2,300 new arrest warrants just this year. A CNN Money analysis over a two-month period found nearly 80 percent of the tickets resulting in arrest warrants stem from some of the most minor offenses. Failing to wear a seatbelt. Speeding. Even having that overgrown yard or playing loud music.
ORTEGA: Even (inaudible) like a warrant say because I assaulted somebody or because I stole $5,000 worth of something in the store. No, I have an arrest, I have a warrant for a delinquent car. It makes you feel like you're a criminal, even though you're not.
GRIFFIN: The U.S. Justice Department report on Ferguson released in March alleges a racially biased practice of policing that targets Ferguson's black community instead of protecting it. And uses tickets, arrests and code enforcement, mostly against black people, as a source of revenue. Those fines paid for 16 percent of the city's budget last year.
BRENDAN ROEDIGER, LAW PROFESSOR: The vast majority are for failure to pay or failure to appear in court.
GRIFFIN: Brendan Roediger, a law professor at St. Louis University who represents plaintiffs in two lawsuits against Ferguson says the Ferguson court system is still policing for profit. And when mostly poor African-Americans can't pay their fines, the city courts put out a warrant for their arrest.
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ROEDIGER: I don't know how to measure how outrageous something is. I think it is absolutely a tragedy. I think it absolutely ruins people's lives. I think that it creates homelessness. I think it discourages people from seeking help when they need help.
GRIFFIN: Hold on, says Ferguson's mayor, James Knowles.
JAMES KNOWLES, MAYOR, FERGUSON: Does it seem extreme? Unfortunately, if you get a speeding ticket or whatever, and you don't even show up to the court to explain to the judge why you can't pay, they do issue a warrant for you. That's the way the courts -- all the courts in Missouri have been operating for many years.
GRIFFIN: That is true. And while some surrounding communities have far fewer arrest warrants being issued than Ferguson, some have even more. Knowles says in the wake of last year's unrest, the city has moved to reduce fines, set up payment options for those who can't pay, and offer amnesty for those carrying arrest warrants.
KNOWLES: What we've told people is, if you want to come in and get your warrant taken care of, we can -- we can take that warrant out. We can go back to what the original fine and fee was. You can -- you can make your case to the judge. We have a new judge. And the judge can work with you to make sure that, that you have no no longer have warrants.
GRIFFIN: What city will not do is not just do away with. No wiping the slate clean. The City of St. Louis and several other neighboring towns are erasing old warrants, stopping the process altogether. Not so in Ferguson, where tickets are still owed, and arrest warrants are still being issued. And thousands of people like Veronica Ortega could technically be arrested just about any moment for something that started out as a delinquent car in her driveway.
So really, any time a cop could come by here.
ORTEGA: And give you a ticket.
GRIFFIN: And arrest you.
ORTEGA: Yes, yes, oh, yes.
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COOPER: Drew, with all the unrest last night, including the shooting. A city that is almost 75 percent African-American. How many African- American officers actually now work for the Ferguson Police Department?
GRIFFIN: It is surprising how few, Anderson, even after this year they've had. They have a new interim police chief who is black, and they have five officers, five out of 50 who are black. Again, as you said, in a town where 70 percent of the population is black. They're trying to improve that as well. That is an improvement.
COOPER: Is the interim chief going to change the way the department has been operating?
GRIFFIN: He says so. Number one, he is not going to have policing for profit. He's not going to do that. He says he hasn't been asked to. And the state of Missouri has a new law where it is going to limit how much money a city can raise on the backs of its population through tickets, et cetera. What he wants to do though is have a more community based police department. Going out and engaging and actually knowing the community they serve. You know, after events like last night, you can see what a tough job he is going to have.
COOPER: No doubt about that. Drew, thanks.
Still ahead tonight, the shooting death of an unarmed black student has police in Arlington, Texas, left with the question -- what was Christian Taylor doing in this car dealership? Did it really merit deadly force?
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COOPER: An investigation is under way in Texas after a rookie police officer shot and killed a 19-year-old college football player who was caught on surveillance video vandalizing cars at a dealership outside Dallas. He was also seen crashing his SUV into the dealership showroom. Late tonight, we learned both officers who were there have given statements to investigators about what happened. We don't know what they said. What we do know is that Christian Taylor was not armed. His father says while what his son was doing wasn't right, there was no reason he had to die. Martin Savidge reports.
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MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Christian Taylor in the last minutes of his life. It is around 1:00 a.m. Friday. Cameras, monitoring an Arlington car dealership, spot the 19-year-old on the lot. At one point he could be seen jumping onto the hood of a car, kicking its windshield. The security company uses a PA system to warn Taylor to leave and then calls police.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The suspect is trying to get into the vehicle. (inaudible) Ford Mustang that he broke into.
SAVIDGE: Then the cameras show the teen driving his SUV through the dealership gates, and smashing through the show room front doors. Within minutes, police respond and walk towards the building.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I just saw a guy in the building.
SAVIDGE: What happens next inside the dealership isn't captured on surveillance video or body cams, which are not required by police here. According to authorities, trainee police officer Brad Miller and his supervising officer order Taylor to surrender. Instead, they say, he tries to flee through a locked door. Then according to police, there is an altercation.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We got shots fired.
SAVIDGE: The supervising officer uses his taser, and Miller fires his gun four times, hitting the teen in the abdomen, chest and neck. Taylor died on the scene.
Officer Miller is on paid administrative leave. Standard department procedure in a police shooting. But in a move that is not standard, the Arlington chief of police has asked the FBI to review his department's investigation and findings. Taylor is black. The officer who fired the fatal shots is white.
SGT PAUL RODRIGUEZ, ARLINGTON, TEXAS POLICE: Equally important to the investigative process is an acknowledgement, and in this instance has not occurred in isolation. But rather it has occurred as our nation has been wrestling with the topics of social injustice, inequities, racism, and police misconduct.
SAVIDGE: Taylor was about to begin his sophomore year at Angelos State University, where he also played as a defensive back on the football team. His father can't understand what his son was doing at the car lot that night.
ADRIAN TAYLOR, FATHER: That could have been too much drinking. Or could have been wrong place at the wrong time. Could have got something that you don't know what you are getting.
SAVIDGE: Whatever the motivation, Taylor's father says he can't understand how his unarmed son would end up shot dead by police.
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COOPER: Martin Savidge joins me now. So Arlington police requested assistance from the FBI, you are getting some information about that. What's happened?
SAVIDGE: The FBI has essentially come back and said they have their full confidence in the local police department and the county that they will be able to investigate this case on their own. They did say that should the investigation be determined that the teenager's civil rights were violated, then the FBI is ready to step in with their own investigation. So essentially what they said was, thanks, but no thanks to the city's offer.
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COOPER: Martin, thank you very much. Up next, another live hour of 360, with the latest on the breaking news from Ferguson, Missouri, where demonstration marking a year since Michael Brown's death have once again been scarred by violence.
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COOPER: 9:00 p.m. Here in New York, Donald Trump is not backing down over remarks that have drawn fire from fellow Republicans and now Hillary Clinton. That is just ahead tonight. We begin though in Ferguson, Missouri, where the sun is just going down after a day of protests, including the blocking of a major nearby highway. A state of emergency now in effect across the city and all of St. Louis County.
