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Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees
Massive Manhunt After Police Officer Killed; Suspects Described As Two White Men And One Black Man; FBI, ATF, and U.S. Marshal Helping Manhunt; CNN Amends GOP Debate Criteria; Trump Says He Won't Accept Large Campaign Donations; Cheney Sounds Off. Aired 9-10p ET.
Aired September 01, 2015 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:01:04]
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening, 9:00 P.M. here in New York, 8:00 P.M. just north of Chicago where the search for three suspected cop killers is still going on at this hour and the shock of a beloved police officer's murder is just sinking in. People in and around Fox Lake, Illinois, have been through a lot today. None of it good, some of it heartbreaking.
They have seen the killing of Fox Lake Police Lieutenant Charles Joseph Gliniewicz, a veteran of the force and mentor to local high schoolers and a father of four. They have seen schools put on lockdown and no-fly zone imposed and a massive state local and federal manhunt swinging into action.
CNN'S Ryan Young is on the scene. He joins us now.
What is the latest, Ryan?
RYAN YOUNG, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, first things first, Anderson, as you look around here, you can see one big difference from our last live shot. The light has gone away. It's dark now and of course we've seen several dozen officers coming back to the command center here. They might be cycling through. We've also seen heavy equipment coming into the area, with those heavy-duty lights that they might bring in to light up an area. The helicopter has just taken off as well.
But I can tell you that I think about this community, someone who served here for 32 years, a guy known to many as G.I. Joe, a father of four who had deep connections to the community. There are a lot of people who showed up on the side of the road with their signs, giving support to this officer.
But right now they are still intensely looking for those three suspects. We have seen extra K-9 units, equestrian units, but we do know this heat was taking a massive toll on a lot of people. If you think about all the gear officers carry especially those SWAT officers with the long guns going through the wood line for most of the day, you can understand how tired they may be. And just the idea that they are searching for people who are responsible for killing one of their own, a brother. And of course what we're told is maybe about a half mile from my location, this is where the shooting happened. We do believe that the officers have been checking the area to see whether or not there's been a digital dump of all the security cameras in the area to see if they caught the three men running for the wood line.
But you also have to remember, there's water around here, there's marsh around here and there are residential homes all throughout this area, some of them that are not occupied. Anderson.
COOPER: Yeah, and I just want to remind our viewers, Ryan, that what they're looking at on the side of the screen are taped images. These are not live pictures. And we're doing that intentionally because we do not want to give locations of where police officers are currently searching just in the off chance that any of these three suspects may actually be monitoring television broadcasts like this one.
So explain this neighborhood because behind us - behind you, Ryan, it looks almost industrial or commercial. There's also residential area. There's also a kind of marshy area. It sounds like a lot of different kinds of terrains and neighborhoods.
YOUNG: So, let me give you the mix. First, when we arrived, we saw the officers in the area as well, near residential homes, over the railroad tracks here. And we made a decision to come to the command center because obviously we didn't want to give street names away where these officers may be gathering to go out. We saw K-9 officers walking in the wood line as well.
We are in the industrial area near where the officer was shot. But as you go back towards the residential area, there is a wood line and what someone described to me as some of its marshland, some of its straight woods and then some of it breaks down into a residential community. Add to the fact that a lot of people here are boaters and it may have boats behind homes that aren't used.
You got to remember massive Labor Day weekend is coming up, everyone's going to be enjoying themselves coming up here for that weekend. But the idea is you might have lot of homes that have boats in the back that no one's been searching through. And you have these officers who have to go door to door with these heavy hearts as they know that someone out there is armed and dangerous because we do believe they took that officer's gun after shooting him and killing him.
COOPER: And in terms of the suspects, not much information has actually been released. Now, we don't know whether or not -- and correct me if I'm wrong on this, Ryan, we don't know whether or not police have more information that they're understandably not releasing because they don't want to tip their hand to, again, any of the suspects who may be watching.
[21:05:00] But as far as we know, the only information that has been given out is two white suspects, one African-American, correct?
YOUNG: And obviously you want more information to be able to give out to the public. Right now, the last news conference we had, Anderson, was at 4:45. So right now, they're really kind of keeping the funnel of information among law enforcement. As we see this large group of officers, you have to wonder, do they have more information? Whether it's a t-shirt or shorts or maybe the shoes the suspects were wearing but do we know how they -- had a chance to change their outfit? This all information that we hope that law enforcement is working with and maybe if they bring the information to us we can put it out there.
What we do know right now, the latest information we got was around 4:45 except for the fact of them releasing the fact that the officer was a father of four as we do see massive amounts of officer's still coming into the area. They obviously have to understand. The search continues in earnest at this time of night. They have that maybe the night vision goggles will be coming on sometime soon with those helicopters.
COOPER: All right Ryan, appreciate the update. We'll continue checking with you. Joining us by phone is the grant township supervisor Kay Starostovic. Kay, thank you so much for being with us. I'm so sorry it's under these circumstances. First of all, what can you tell us about Lieutenant Gliniewicz? What kind of guy was he?
KAY STAROSTOVIC, GRANT TOWNSHIP SUPERVISOR: He was just a wonderful guy. He was involved in his community. He had a beautiful family. He was at every event in this area, always helping.
One of the biggest things he did his work with the explorers. And the kids just idolized him. He would go to their dances. He would take them on excavating -- not excavating but teaching them these practices in the school parking lots and showing them cars when they were crashed and how you get people out. And he just taught those children so much. He was idolized by them.
The community loved Joe. There wasn't -- I talked to one of my friends today who's in her 80's. She goes, "Oh my gosh, he always helps me get in my car." He was just always there for everybody.
COOPER: Yeah it just -- I talked to a teenager, a high school student who's in the explorers club who actually is the mentee of the lieutenant and not only which are heartbroken but it says he's more determined than ever to join the force because of the example set by this lieutenant and because of what's happened to him.
The mood in the community right now, I mean obviously besides being heartbroken there's -- I imagine there's got to be fear out there as well because you have potentially three suspects on the loose.
STAROSTOVIC: Absolutely. A lot of places were locked down today. I did locked down the township. And if anybody would have come to the door, which did not happen today, they would not have gotten in if we didn't recognize them. But I made all my employees come inside and I know one of our local banks was locked down. It was just a safety factor for everybody and I think we have to be aware that there's potential out there of danger.
And we know that these people that showed up today in this village will do their job. But that's one thing I would like to remark on was the outstanding position these forces took today coming into this community. I don't think they're going to leave a rock unturned until they find them.
And it was just such a brotherhood. It made -- I think myself, I felt, you know, like this is really a great thing happening in this community because it makes you know that people really, really care and they will do something about that.
COOPER: And, Kay, to that point, our correspondent Ryan Young was saying that earlier there were members of the community coming out onto the streets to voice their support, to show their support, not only for lieutenant who was killed but also for the officers who are searching and you consider they're doing that at the same time that there is a manhunt, there's people on the loose. So without despite what understandable fear some people have, they want to come out and show their support.
STAROSTOVIC: Absolutely. I did see some people down there and they have their signs and they were showing and the beeping of the horns going by, it does show that there's a lot of compassion right now.
COOPER: Have you ever seen anything like this before in your community?
STAROSTOVIC: Not really, not this severe. I'm sure people have been stopped and maybe hassle a little arrest but nothing like this.
COOPER: Yeah.
STAROSTOVIC: It's just overwhelming.
COOPER: OK.
STAROSTOVIC: And you see it, you know, around the country this happens all the time. And I always do say when not if, because sometimes it can happen. And we should be ready. And today how -- it was a miracle on how they got those forces together on location there...
[21:10:00]
COOPER: And very quickly, we should also point out...
STAROSTOVIC: ... to do that. It was really -- yeah.
COOPER: Yeah.
STAROSTOVIC: And I'd like to extend my best to the family in prayers. And I know the community is going to be behind them all the way.
COOPER: I'm sure there's...
STAROSTOVIC: This is such a tight community. When somebody needs, these people here are always ready and willing to help. But they, we're not the richest township in the country but we're the most giving. And there's a lot of compassion here for people. COOPER: We're seeing that today certainly.
STAROSTOVIC: Yes.
COOPER: And I know your heart is heavy and the hearts of many people around the country watching this are heavy tonight as well as ours. And I just wanted to thank you for taking the time in your time of grief and to bring us up today, Kay, thank you.
COOPER: And thank you for your concern and letting people know these things do happen and we should all try to work for peace.
COOPER: Yeah, we believe that is the 26th officer this year, if my numbers are correct who has been killed in the line of duty and those are shocking and disturbing number. Kay, we'll continue to check in with you. Thank you.
Joining us is Lenny DePaul, who we got to know during the search for those two killers in upstate New York is a former commander of the U.S. Marshal Service Regional Fugitive Task Force from New York and New Jersey, also with us, Jeff Roorda, of the Saint Louis Police Officer Association and former FBI profiler and Mary Ellen O'Toole.
Lenny, let's start with you, in terms of what law enforcement is up against right now and we'll be showing pictures, they're not live pictures. I don't want people to believe that we're -- and anyway giving away any current police activity or positions. How much harder has this search gotten now that the sun has gone down?
LENNY DEPAUL, FMR. COMMANDER U.S. MARSHALS SERVICE: Well, good evening, Anderson. It's gotten extremely hard not only because the sun's gone down, they're chasing ghosts. They don't have anybody identified. In the upstate New York escape case we knew what we were looking at.
So it makes it extremely difficult when you're trying to track people that we don't even know who they are at this point. At least I'm not aware. Hopefully law enforcement -- and I'm sure these investigators, you know, hopefully some intelligence that they've gathered that they've maybe are pointing them in the right direction.
But they need a game changer; they need something to identify these three suspects. But it's tough out there. I'm sure aviation support, thermal imaging, night vision, whatever assets are needed have been deployed. And if they're, if they bunkered down and waiting for nightfall, you know, they'll have the appropriate amount of manpower which they do and resources to get these three in custody.
COOPER: And, Jeff, I use -- allude to your expertise to know what to say and not to say in a time like this. But how does an operation like this work? I mean, what's always so impressive to me with law enforcement is, you know, when an officer is down; so many different agencies seem to respond instantly. How does it -- how does that all work?
JEFF ROORDA, ST. LOUIS POLICE OFFICER ASSOCIATION: Yeah, Anderson, it is -- everybody is invited to the party situation. I mean, officers will come from miles around to help in a situation like this. My experience with these manhunts has been limited to escaped prisoners. But sort of the same circumstances, particularly when you've got them locked down into a small area. The one advantage that the officers have with the sun going down is the thermal imaging and the infrared will help them if they've got the guys in the area where they think they are.
But the situation is very dynamic, very dangerous. You know, guys that are in this situation particularly when they're armed and they've already killed one law enforcement officer, do some really desperate things. You remember those "Charlie Hebdo" shooters and how desperate they were and wanted to go out in a blaze of glory at the end. And let's hope this one doesn't end that way.
COOPER: Mary Ellen, I mean, in -- when you have -- first of all, this attack, as far as we know was -- wasn't -- or we don't know if it was preplanned or not. But how key is that in figuring out the suspects' mentality now that they're on the run? If it wasn't preplanned, if this officer happened upon a scene, they went running, that certainly I guess would help law enforcement because there's not kind of a preset plan these suspects may have.
MARY ELLEN O'TOOLE, FORMER FBI PROFILER: It really well helped law enforcement because if this was more of a spontaneous act -- here's how this will unfold. Once the officer is shot and killed, there will be dissension amongst the three because not all three will have committed to having killed a law enforcement officer, at least equally have committed to killing him.
So there will be yelling and arguing. Now they have to default to plan "B" and there's a lot of dissension going on. So that is going to cause them to make mistakes. And that's what we want. We want them to make mistakes.
And if they're listening, if they're inside a home, what we want is that message to come out to that one person who says, I didn't want to kill that officer. That's the person that needs to come forward to the authorities because once they're all three arrested together, the authorities will not be interested in making any deals.
[21:15:05] So they're going to rely on the dissension amongst the three to really compel the weaker one to come forward.
COOPER: Mary Ellen O'Toole, Lenny DePaul, Jeff Roorda, I appreciate all of you being here in this situation. As we said, this Manhunt underway right now. We're going to have more on who this latest fallen officer was and how deeply he will be missed by so many. A lot more also happening as will in the presidential race, we'll have detail on that ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: A lot more information on the manhunt as events warrants it tonight in this next hour. But CNN is hosting the next Republican debates on September 16th. And tonight there's a chance will actually change to tell you about. We are tweaking the rules that determine who qualifies. Now, any candidate who ranks in the top 10 in polling between August 6th and September 10th will be included in the top debate. That's even if they didn't poll in the top 10 in an average of approved national polls.
Joining me now, a newest political commentator Amanda Carpenter, welcome Amanda, I appreciate you are being with us tonight. Amanda is the former communications director for Ted Cruz. It is great to have you on board, also CNN political commentator, Jeffrey Lord and Ana Navarro. Jeffrey is a Trump supporter and former Reagan White House Political Director. Ana is Republican strategist and a supporter of Jeb Bush and it's great to have everybody here. And what do you first, what you make of this new criteria?
ANA NAVARRO, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: I think it was a very good move by CNN, as self-serving as it may sound for me being a CNN contributor. But this is an unusual year.
[21:20:01] There's 17 candidates running. And I think you have to acknowledge that there were changes because of this debate. Some people wen down some people went up.
COOPER: Right, Carly Fiorina...
NAVARRO: Carly Fiorina went way up. And I also think that, you know, kudos to her for having put pressure, having gotten the grassroots activists to weigh in and...
COOPER: But she called...
NAVARRO: ... kudos to CNN...
COOPER: She called out CNN's...
NAVARRO: ... for listening...
COOPER: Yes.
NAVARRO: ... to this uprising in the public.
COOPER: Right. Jeff, I want to play a clip of Carly Fiorina at the so-called happy hour debate last month where she went after Donald Trump referring...
JEFFREY LORD, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Right.
COOPER: ... to a "Washington Post" report which said that President Clinton called Trump months ago encouraging him to play a larger role in the Republican Party. Let's listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CARLY FIORINA, (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I didn't get a phone call from Bill Clinton before I jumped in the race. Did any of you get a phone call from Bill Clinton? I didn't. Maybe it's because I hadn't given money their foundation or donated to his wife's senate campaign. (END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: If she does end up making the cut for this debate, how much do you think it could change to the dynamic having a woman should be the only woman on the stage and perhaps going toe-to-toe with Donald Trump?
LORD: I think she'll be fine. I think she'll express her ideas. I think Donald Trump himself was for getting her in there. And I should tell you like I give you a little bit of news here, the temperature is taking out there in the conservative world.
I reached out to the Mark Levin, the talk radio shows who sent me this short statement, "CNN's decision response appropriately to the existing political reality that she's more popular and better known today than she was several months ago, wise decision."
I think, you know, this is a good decision all around. I'm sure Donald Trump feels that way. It will be good to have her on there and then, you know, on we go when we'll see how she holds up. If she can't handle Donald Trump as I said months ago, if she can't handle Donald Trump she shouldn't be president anyway and that applies for everybody else.
COOPER: Amanda, Hugh Hewitt who is one of the moderators to the debate spoke to Carly Fiorina today after the rules changed and asked her if this now becomes a Trump, Fiorina showdown. And she basically brushed that off saying that he is someone she looks forward to discussing and debating with but the dynamic between the two of them -- I'd imagine a lot of people will certainly be on the lookout for that dynamic and particularly whether she kind of takes him on.
AMANDA CARPENTER, FORMER COMMUNICATION DIRECTOR FOR SENATOR TED CRUZ: Yeah, I think there's certain to be sparks that will fly between the two. They've been dancing around attacking each other. She did it from, you know, the first debate stage. He had set her voice gives him headaches. He's attacked her business experience.
I think we'll almost certainly see a conflict there. And also when people see that happen, they'll be reading to see how Donald Trump may challenge a potential Hillary Clinton on the stage. You can't ignore the male or female dynamic and the history that he has attacking women in this really gutter-ball way.
And so, I think that's certain to happen but also Carly getting on the stage here is a testament to her grit and determination. I don't think we should overlook the fact that she organized a grassroots coalition she, you know, petitioned to CNN officials made the case based on the polls. So you have a very tenacious woman here and I don't think she's going to back down from that fight.
COOPER: Last night, Ana, on Jimmy Fallon, Governor Christie was on and he was saying that a one point in the last debate he went 20 questions in a row without being asked a question. Now, Fiorina's presence could mean basically more than 10 GOP candidates on that stage. He might be. NAVARRO: Maybe he'll go 25 of question without being asked a question. He also said I think on that show that he might go nuclear...
COOPER: Right.
NAVARRO: ...on -- at that debate. So Jake Tapper, Dana Bash and Hugh Hewitt they're going to have their hands full with possibly up to 11 candidates really moderating, figuring out how it lets them rumble? How to make it entertaining? How to deal with Donald Trump? And I do expect Carly Fiorina to take him on because she has taken a moment of past. And it's interesting because the dynamic is also of the two outsiders, right?
COOPER: Right.
NAVARRO: Two political outsiders, two people that come from a business background, going at it with each other and Carly has not let him get off scot-free with some of the comments he's made on women.
COOPER: Jeff, Donald Trump today in an interview with Don Lemon and I should pointed out Don is going to have the complete interview in about half an hour on his broadcast, was asked about donations to his campaign and fund-raising. And I want to play just a little bit of that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: So are you going to accept donations, large donations, small donations if people want to give you money?
DONALD TRUMP, (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: No, the answer is no...
LEMON: No, OK that's it I just wanted...
TRUMP: ... no donations -- wait a minute, wait, small donations. People sending in a $100 and $7 and $9 and we do accept that because they want to invest in the campaign and its relative of peanuts. But you know what, they want to be a part of it. And I love that. That's not influence. That's not a lobbyist giving me $5 million where it turns out $5 million where they want to put in millions and millions of dollars. That's people that want to invest in the campaign, that I happen to love. I think it's a really good thing and I think it's a really positive thing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[21:25:02]
COOPER: It's really interesting, Jeff, that he is selling this as investing in the campaign. I don't know that I've ever heard a candidate kind of using that kind of verbiage before. It's an interesting way to look at whether, you know, maybe it's just spinner or, you know, putting a face on it but it certainly is an interesting way to sell it. LORD: I, you know, I think Anderson, this goes to the heart of the reality here that he has a real connection with -- as it were regular folks or working-class folks or middle America or working America. I mean they love him. I mean, I have seen this myself when I've been with him long before he announced for president.
And I think -- I may have mentioned it on the show here. They just swarm to him and I honestly don't think it's about celebrity. I think it's that they agree with him. They think that he's, you know, determined to do something and they trust in his ability to do it.
So the fact that he gets these contributions, he loves it. He'll take them and they're not $5 million and he'll make it known.
NAVARRO: Yeah, they jumped the reality is he's also -- he is raising money. He had an event at his daughter's father-in-law's house Charles Kushner, a very wealthy real estate developer in the New York area. Let me, you know, what the reality is? He's very, very rich as he himself has told us many, many times. But he's also very, very cheap, doesn't want to spend it on his campaign.
COOPER: We got where I have to jump out here. Amanda Carpenter great to have you here and great to having you tonight, Ana Navarro as always, Jeffrey Lord as well.
LORD: Thanks, Anderson.
COOPER: Just ahead, Dick Cheney sounding off about Hillary Clinton's e-mails President Obama's nuclear deal with Iran and why he thinks Joe Biden should make another white house run?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[21:30:37]
COOPER: Hey welcome back. We're talking Trump and taxes. Now, Donald trump is threatening a very non-Republican idea raising the amounts from wealthy Americans. His campaign says he'll release his complete plan in the next few weeks but he's already rattling the nerves of some party loyalists. Tom Foreman has more.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: To hear Trump telling his expertise is clear.
TRUMP: Who knows taxes for than me? I know the taxes very well.
FOREMAN: But what he plans to do about taxes is far murkier.
TRUMP: Unbelievable.
FOREMAN: The poll tapping candidate, he's floated a variety of ideas, easing the burden on working families.
TRUMP: I want to lower taxes for the middle class. FOREMAN: Cutting back on government spending?
TRUMP: There's so much fat in Washington that if somebody got in that knew what they were doing, you don't have to raise taxes.
FOREMAN: And in a move that has alarmed some staunch republicans, Trump is echoing a democratic line, make some rich people pay more.
TRUMP: They pick a stock and all of a sudden, you know, they make a lot of money. I want the Hedge Fund Guys to pay more taxes.
FOREMAN: As a result, some pro-business anti-tax groups like the club for growth are not impressed.
DAVID MCINTOSH, PRESIDENT CLUB FOR GROWTH: He knows how business works for him to create money and he's happy to tax everybody else's business. That's a bad plan for the whole United States.
FOREMAN: Trump says he can bring U.S. companies back from overseas by lowering their corporate taxes. But some of these groups are convinced heavier taxes on investors and punishing companies for shipping jobs overseas in the first place will kill incentives for growth, wiping out jobs and productivity. Ever since Ronald Reagan, Republicans have loved the idea of lowering taxes.
RONALD REAGAN: Read my lips, no new taxes.
FOREMAN: But many have found keeping those promises can be tough and it may require much more nuance then Trump has offered so far.
TRUMP: If people are going to be very happy.
CURTIS DUBAY, THE HERITAGE FOUNDATION: There are winners and losers in tax reform usually and people who stand to lose scream really loud.
FOREMAN: In other words, it is the same complaint that was raised about Trump's plan for immigration reform. What he is saying is popular but hidden in all those details he glosses over may be the devil that makes his economic plans impractical and politically impossible.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: That was Tom Foreman reporting. You heard Dick Cheney talk about Donald Trump in the last hour. Coming up next, part two of Jamie Gangel's conversation with the former vice president and his daughter, Liz, they are taking President Obama's handling of Iraq plus sharp reaction from Paul Begala and president versus former White House Spokesperson Ari Fleischer.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[21:31:40]
COOPER: A lot of people are talking about Hillary Clinton's e-mails including Dick Cheney in a new interview with CNN special correspondent Jamie Gangel. Now, we're very happy by the way to Jamie's making her debut tonight on our program welcoming her to CNN.
Last hour, we brought you part one of her interview with Mr. Cheney and his daughter Liz. They have written out a new book together called "Exceptional: Why the World Needs a Powerful America". In part two of the interview, Cheney has a lot more to say and he is very classic blunt style. Jamie began by asking what he thinks about Hillary Clinton's use of personal e-mail server when she was secretary of state.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DICK CHENEY, FORMER U.S. VICE PRESIDENT: Well, it's difficult to know what her motives were. I found it surprising that somebody as high- ranking, secretary of state who's dealing with classified and sensitive information all the time, would think that it was okay to have a private server in your home.
JAMIE GANGEL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: How did you handle your e-mails?
CHENEY: I didn't do e-mails.
GANGELS: So how would you describe her handling her e-mails this way in a word?
CHENEY: Well I think it was sloppy and unprofessional. The Chinese recently picked up the files of everybody who is currently working for the Federal Government. Now, the situation strikes me, maybe she went into an ignorant but I find it hard to believe. She's an intelligent woman. She spent a lot of time in the White House. You should not operate in the way she did.
GANGELS: She should have known better?
CHENEY: I think she should have known better.
GANGELS: Do you think the Russians and the Chinese have her e-mails?
CHENEY: They've got my personnel records. How can they not have her e-mails?
GANGELS: Liz, when you were deputy assistant secretary of state, you know what it's like to handle very sensitive information. Do you think she jeopardized national security?
LIZ CHENEY, FORMER ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF STATE: I do, certainly. I think there's no doubt, given what we now know, what we've seen in the very limited number of e-mails that have actually been released and the investigation that's under way, the questions that have been raised by the Department of Defense and others, there clearly was information on that server that was classified and so you've got to conclude that there was a risk to our national security.
GANGELS: Do you think this undermines or disqualifies her candidacy?
D. CHENEY: I think there's a very real possibility of that. GANGELS: I know you're not in the business of giving the Democratic Party advice but what do you think of Joe Biden and do you think he should get into the race?
D. CHENEY: I'd love to see Joe get in the race.
GANGELS: Because?
D. CHENEY: Go for it, Joe. He's tried twice before. He obviously is interested. I think there's a lot of support for him in the Democratic Party. I think it would stir things up. They're short candidates on their side so, you know, I'd urge Joe to have a shot at it.
GANGELS: Who do you think is a more formidable candidate, Biden or Clinton?
D. CHENEY: There is this notion that Hillary sort of inherited the nomination, nobody could really challenge her for the nomination. I think that's now pretty well gone by the boards because of her problems and I think that's why there's potential support out there and so she does have some opposition now. And my bet is Joe is going to run.
GANGELS: He may want Joe Biden to run but it isn't stopping Cheney from a full-on attack against the White House and the Iran nuclear deal.
D. CHENEY: The objective was no nukes for the Iranians but that's not what's happened here. The objective was no enrichment for the Iranians.
[21:40:00] That's not what the treaty does. It's not a treaty. What the agreement does. Basically it's what it says within a specified period of time, Iran is going to be able to do whatever they want to do with respect to developing nuclear weapons.
That's not what the treaty does. It's not a treaty, what's the agreement does. Basically, it's -- what it says within a specified period of time, Iran is going to be able to do whatever they want to do with respect to developing nuclear weapons.
GANGELS: And Cheney goes further. He believes the deal will cause a nuclear arms race in the Middle East and charges it will more than likely lead to the first use of a nuclear weapon since Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
D. CHENEY: I do think when you take the instability that we have in the Middle East then the conflict and the ISIS and the rise of the caliphate and the whole of terrorism has gone on in part of the world. And you dump nuclear weapons into that mix. I think the possibility that sooner or later somebody's going to use one of those nuclear weapons has increased fairly significantly.
GANGELS: President Obama says it's the best deal we could get and opponents are pro-war. You say? D. CHENEY: He's wrong. So no if -- we've done much better than that in the past in other negotiations. He gave away the store.
GANGELS: President Obama said opponents of the deal are either lying or ignorant.
D. CHENEY: I think that's a very sorry statement by a President of the United States. I just - he ought to read his own agreement.
GANGELS: On Jon Stewart's show, President Obama said his critics think he should have sent Dick Cheney to negotiate the Iran nuclear deal.
D. CHENEY: If you were going to send people to class and study how to be a negotiator, you would not do it the way that Barack Obama has done it.
GANGELS: Liz, you think your father could have done a better job?
L. CHENEY: I think my father's dog could have done a better job. But in all seriousness, I mean every time the President says those of us who oppose the deal are pro-war, I think it's important for people to go back and look at the specifics of what the deal actually does.
And the fact that this deal will make it more likely that we will in fact have conflict in the Middle East and make it more likely that that conflict may well be nuclear.
GANGELS: You in the book blame the spread of ISIS on President Obama. He says it's your fault, that Bush-Cheney left the region unstable.
D. CHENEY: Well, I think he's wrong. Look at the record. We had a situation in which by the time we got through the surge in '07 and '08, President Bush made a very courageous decision, very correct decision and Iraq was in good shape when we left office. And Barack Obama said as much.
What happened basically was they failed to follow through. They withdrew as quickly as possible and left no stay-behind force there. They created a vacuum. And the vacuum was filled by ISIS.
GANGELS: How dangerous do you really think ISIS is now to homeland security, American soil?
D. CHENEY: I think extraordinarily dangerous, partly because of their ability to recruit from the United States, people to become members of the ISIS to go to Syria, Iraq and so forth. I think the danger of having those people return, having trained, for example, over there or their ability to motivate people in the United States and elsewhere and other parts of the world to become ardent followers if you will of that ideology and sacrifice themselves in the name of killing infidels.
I think that possibility is increasing. And I think ISIS is very dangerous indeed, especially if you think about the prospects of nuclear weapons being developed in the Middle East. GANGELS: Do you think we could see another major 9/11-style attack on American soil?
D. CHENEY: I think we could see another 9/11-style attack with much deadlier weapons. I worry that if they use chemicals or biological agents or nuclear weapons. Remember, the weapon they used in 9/11, airline tickets and box cutters. That was a difficult, terrible day for us, 3,000 casualties. It will be a lot worse if they find deadlier weapons.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Joining me now is Ari Fleischer, former Press Secretary for President George W. Bush and also CNN Political Commentator and Democratic Strategist, Paul Begala. He coached here as a pro-Hillary Clinton's Super Pact.
Paul, Cheney, they're laying the blame for the spread of ISIS solely at President Obama's feet.
PAUL BEGALA, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Yeah, amazing. What a valuable piece of videotape. That is a portrait of a political sociopath particularly...
COOPER: Political sociopath?
BEGALA: Political sociopath. Yes, I actually went and looked up on the Mayo Clinic website the definition of that disorder and it fits Mr. Cheney to a T, inability to ever express remorse, to admit error, manipulative, dishonest -- this point about ISIS, for example. ISIS exists because of the invasion of Iraq.
Iran is stronger because of the invasion of Iraq. We invaded Iraq because Mr. Cheney twisted intelligence to try to persuade the country to invade a country that was no threat to America. And now he sits there and actually has the gall to try to blame President Obama for trying to manage the damage.
COOPER: Ari, I mean, is it irresponsible of the former Vice President not to accept any responsibility as Paul says?
[21:45:06]
ARI FLEISCHER, FORMER WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: Well, the question put to him was about ISIS and I think it's irrefutable. The fact that ISIS exists does create -- is created because of the vacuums that President Obama has created. The question was not, do you have any apologies that you would like to make over the eight years in an office? Very different issue. And who knows what Dick Cheney would have said to that.
COOPER: But, Ari, just actually speaking, it does seem like Dick Cheney is kind of washing his hands of some responsibility. I mean, he -- first of all, he talks about the surge. He doesn't talk anything about what came prior to the surge which were clearly a lot of missteps that made the surge essential. And also the surge was really designed to create the possibility for some sort of political solution in Iraq with leaders picked by your former boss's administration and they failed to do that.
And there was an agreement that President Bush signed about status of forces that you can argue whether or not President Obama worked hard enough to keep U.S. forces there, to kind of refashion the agreement. But, I mean, can he really just lay it all on President Obama?
FLEISCHER: Well, first of all, we don't know what questions were asked in the snippet you showed about the 2003 decision. And people can argue about that. I think what you can't argue about that Iraq in 2007 and 2008 was a stable country. That is the country that President Obama inherited. I think, you can...
COOPER: Well, in terms of the military situation was far better. The surge obviously was something, but...
FLEISCHER: The political situation was an improving situation...
COOPER: But Nouri al-Maliki though clearly...
FLEISCHER: There was an improvement of situation for that country that had Saddam Hussein at the helm and had never known any type of representative government and it was working its way forward trying to figure it out. Maliki was not the best or strongest leader. But the point is you needed America's guiding hand to pull Iraq through it.
Barack Obama didn't have any interest in extending America's guiding hand. He wanted to end it and get out of there. And that's one of the reasons that the vacuum was formed. That's one of the reasons that ISIS was able to take over so much of Iraq and that's why we have so much turmoil there today and that's why Iran is so influential in Iraq today. This is all the results of the vacuums that gets formed when America does not lead.
COOPER: Paul, it's also interesting that Cheney clearly doesn't seem to give any credit to President Obama for the killing of Osama bin Laden. He credits the so-called enhanced interrogation techniques which critics would call in some cases torture techniques.
BEGALA: Right. And the Senate select committee on intelligence issued at least what I read was declassified. Voluminous report on the CIA torture and say it did not help. I will say partly (ph) for me to defend Dick Cheney in other interviews he has said that it was good that President Obama killed bin Laden. And so at least -- but in this one, he didn't. And again it goes to this.
I'm telling you like on this question of Iran, I'm old enough to remember when Bill Clinton, my old boss, was trying to pass tough sanctions on Iran in the 1990s and we had strong Republican support for that. I'm sure Fleischer support it. But chief opponent of our sanctions against Iran was Dick Cheney then the CEO of Halliburton.
And in that interview, sitting in that beautiful mansion, he's got all that money. That money came from Halliburton. Halliburton was trained with the enemy in Iran. They -- we passed the sanctions despite Cheney's opposition, but then Cheney as head of Halliburton got around those sanction and he treated with the enemies.
He enriched the terrorist regime in Tehran. He enriched himself. And now he's the one talking and saying that President Barack Obama is not tough enough on Iran? It just it boggles the mind for somebody with that kind of record. So now he's lecturing President Obama. It's amazing to me.
COOPER: Ari, should President Obama get some credit on the killing of bin Laden?
FLEISCHER: Of course he should. He's the one who authorized the mission. The SEALs carried it out and the President deserves the credit for authorizing it. Joe Biden opposed it. But, you know, I don't know what relevance this has to the future.
BEGALA: (Inaudible), Ari.
FLEISCHER: If this is what you want to shape the next election on is the debate about the killing of bin Laden, good luck. That's something that Barack Obama can be and should be all Americans should be proud of and the enhanced interrogation techniques absolutely played a role in the detection of the courier who led us to bin Laden. All of that came together.
And the other thing that helped the mission to be successful was the military build-up that George Bush put in office. And I've credited President Obama for the continued drone strikes, indefinite detention, warrantless wiretaps.
He has continued much of the infrastructure that he criticizes unconstitutional. He tweaked little bits of it and continued most of it in place. And that's to his credit, but he shouldn't have been the hypocrite criticizing George Bush for violating the constitution when those are the very things that have kept us free and I'm glad President Obama has continued them.
COOPER: All right. Paul, appreciate you being with us, Ari Fleischer as well. Thank you, gentlemen.
Up next, we're going to return to the manhunt near Chicago with a special focus on the fallen officer at the heart of it all. We'll learn more about the kind of person, the kind of friend that Lieutenant Charles Joseph Gliniewicz was.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[21:52:41]
COOPER: On our return to the breaking news, the manhunt for three alleged cop killers north of Chicago continuing through the night. Right now, the fallen officer Lieutenant Charles Joseph Gliniewicz was known as Joe to his friends, G.I. Joe to his fellow officers. He worked with a lot of fellow officers over the many years that he served with Fox Lake, Illinois and he made just as many friends in the community.
One of those long-time friends, Thomas Poulos joins us now.
Thomas, I'm so sorry for your loss. And appreciate you talking to us in your moment of grief. You've known Lieutenant Gliniewicz since you both were in high school, is that right?
THOMAS POULOS, FRIEND OF LT. CHARLES JOSEPH GLINIEWICS: That's correct.
COOPER: What kind of guy was he?
POULOS: Oh, boy. You know, he was just an incredible human being. I mean, fun, loving, just a character. But the one thing that I remember the most about Charles is just being the optimist that he was during every situation.
COOPER: Did -- in high school, did he know he wanted to be a police officer?
POULOS: Did he know he did?
COOPER: Yeah.
POULOS: Yeah, he did. He -- we discussed it before and I told him my plans of doing it and, you know, Joe was in the military right out of high school. But, boy, I tell you what, 30 years that he put in was almost, you know, went from a kid from high school to a cop almost immediately.
COOPER: I mean to serve on the force for more than 30 years is just an incredible, incredible sacrifice and the dedication to put in that amount of time. I just talked to a young man of high school student who was in the explorer program and was a mentee of your friend Joe and he says that, I mean, not only spoke just incredibly highly of him, but said that he's more determined than ever to get on and to join the police force in the wake of what happened to Joe.
POULOS: Yeah. I mean that's a credit to Joe, the kind of guy that he was. I followed Joe on Facebook. We talked a lot and Joe just had a passion for teaching these young kids not only being a mentor to these explorers, but just, you know, he taught them tactics, he taught them and all kinds of police work.
[21:55:04] But the things that he taught them most was lessons about life and these poor young men are probably hit harder than almost anyone today.
COOPER: I mean he has four kids. I mean the loss is - it's just -- it's impossible to think about for his family.
POULOS: Yes and if, you know, if only the people that are responsible for this just knew the kind of family man he was and knew the care that he had for the public, this wasn't -- this was a great guy. This was a guy who would have wanted more help for an individual he had to arrest than to get a kick out of putting somebody behind bars.
COOPER: Well, Thomas, I'm, again, I'm just, I mean, it sound so hollow to say, but I'm really am sorry for your loss. And please extend our condolences to all of your friends and to the families as well and I appreciate you talking to me.
POULOS: Just...
COOPER: Yeah, Thomas.
POULOS: If I could just say one more thing, Anderson.
COOPER: Of course, Thomas.
POULOS: I would strive to be the kind of man Joe was and I tell you what, if there was more people like Joe out there, we'd need a lot less cops.
COOPER: It's - and we've been hearing that from all, a lot of people today. Tom, again, thank you so much for talking with us. I really appreciate it. I'm sorry it's under these circumstances.
POULOS: Thank you, Anderson.
COOPER: All right. Stay strong. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:00:00] COOPER: Well, that does it for us. Thanks for watching. CNN Tonight with Don Lemon starts right now.
