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Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees

Donald Trump's Tussle with Conservative Radio Host Hugh Hewitt; Significant New Evidence in Murder of Chicago Police Officer; Clerk Remains Jailed for Refusing to Issue Marriage Licenses; Refugee's Plight in Europe; Scandal Around Ability One. Aired 8-9p ET

Aired September 04, 2015 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[20:00:07] JOHN BERMAN, CNN HOST: Good evening. John Berman in for Anderson tonight.

Stumping Donald Trump, fair game or got you. Turns out the Republican front-runner doesn't know much about some of the country's most dangerous adversaries. The question is, would that matter if he becomes president? More immediately will it matter enough to voters to prevent him from becoming president or becoming the Republican nominee? And even more urgently, will his fogginess on the facts change the face of the upcoming Republican debate next Wednesday two Wednesdays from now, right here on CNN.

Hugh Hewitt, the conservative radio host will be on the debate panel asking questions. He grilled Mr. Trump on his radio program yesterday asking him about a number of bad actors on the world stage. We put together some key moments. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

HUGH HEWITT, CONSERVATIVE RADIO HOST: Are you familiar with General Soleimani?

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Yes. But go ahead, give me a little. Go ahead, tell me.

HEWITT: He runs the Quds forces.

TRUMP: Yes, OK. Right.

HEWITT: Do you expect his behavior --

TRUMP: And I think the Kurds, by the way, have been horribly mistreated by --

HEWITT: No, not the Kurds, the Quds Forces, the Iranian Revolutionary Guards Quds Forces.

TRUMP: Yes. Yes.

HEWITT: The bad guys.

TRUMP: Right.

HEWITT: Do you expect his behavior to change as a result --

TRUMP: I though you said Kurds, Kurds.

HEWITT: No, Quds.

TRUMP: I'm sorry. I thought you said Kurd, because I think Kurd have been very poorly treated by us, Hugh. Go ahead.

HEWITT: Agreed.

Do you know the players without a scorecard yet, Donald Trump?

TRUMP: No, you know, I will tell you. Honestly, I think, by the time we got to office, they will all be changed. They will be all gone. I knew you are going to ask me things like this. And there is no reason because number one, I will hopefully find General Douglas MacArthur in the pack, I will find whoever it is that I will find. But they're all changing, Hugh. You know, those are like history question. Do you know this one? Do you that one?

I will tell you, I thought you used the word Kurd before. I will tell you that I think the Kurds are most underutilized and are being totally mistreated by us. And nobody understands why. But as far as the individual players, of course, I don't know them. I haven't met them. I haven't been, you know, in a position to meet them. If, they're still there which is unlikely in many cases, but if they're still there, I will know them better than I know you.

HEWITT: I don't believe in gotcha questions. I am not trying to quiz you.

TRUMP: That is a gotcha question, when you are asking me, who is running this, this, this. That's not - that is not -- I will be so good at the military, your head will spin. But obviously, I'm not meeting these people. I'm not seeing these people.

HEWITT: Last question, I want to go back to the beginning because I really do disagree with you on the gotcha question thing, Donald Trump. At the debate I may bring up Nasrallah being with Hezbollah, and al-Julani being with al-Nusra and al-Masri being with Hamas. Do you think if I ask people to talk about those three things and the differences, that that's a gotcha question?

TRUMP: Yes, I do. I think it is ridiculous.

HEWITT: That's interesting. I just disagree with that. I kind of figured that --

TRUMP: All right. I think it is ridiculous. I'll have, I'm a delegator. I find great people. I find absolutely great people and I'll find them in our armed services and I find absolutely great people.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BERMAN: So, as you can tell from that exchange, Donald Trump took exception to the line of questioning. Today, he also took exception to the questioner.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: And you know, by the way when you say Quds versus Kurds, I thought he said, Kurds, this third-rate radio announcer that I did his show. And it was like "gotcha, gotcha." Every question was do I know this one and that one. And, you know, he was like he worked hard on that. But I thought he said Kurds.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: A third-rate radio announcer, he said. Our guest on the program tonight, Hugh Hewitt joins to us respond.

Hugh Hewitt, Donald Trump says you are a third-rate radio announcer. How much does that hurt your feelings?

HEWITT: Well, I think it is a well-earned Trump tattoo. Donald Trump has been my guest a half dozen times, John. I get along with him well. I would start every radio snow, if I could, with him because he gets of course, enormous audience. He is always entertaining. He is usually informative.

And yesterday, actually, in the interview, we talked about whether or not what I was asking was a gotcha question. But he did quite well on some complicated questions about how he might respond if the PRC would attack an allied ship and something like that.

But overnight, obviously, he thought more about it. Didn't like what he saw. And didn't like how it was plague s playing. And so, he did a very good, professional, television skilled, rocketeer would do just to change the subject back to me.

So I just want the audience to know when it comes time for the CNN debate next week from Wednesday, I am not mad at Donald Trump. I am not pro-Donald Trump. I'm not for or against any of the candidates. I just want to ask questions that I think GOP primary voters want to know and a lot of those are national security questions.

BERMAN: Now, he says he doesn't need to know the answers to these questions. He can hire people when the time comes that know the answer to these questions. Douglas MacArthur types he says who are out there. Is that enough for a president?

[20:05:06] HEWITT: It could be. He is making an argument. It is not a bad argument that he will go find the new Petraeus, the new McChrystal, the new John Allen, he will bring back Jim Maddus, who knows? There are lot of brilliant military mind. And he could indeed go and do that. It is important I think, though, to couple that in any time that that argument is made with, with names of people who are close in time to a younger generation who might not really relate to the fact that Douglas MacArthur, (INAUDIBLE) was a genius.

So I think maybe the messaging there needs to get a little bit better, but it is legitimate. It is not how a lot of others have answered the question. I have done about 60 interviews, plus 60 interviews with GOP candidates. And they're all over the map on how they will respond to this incredibly difficult problem of the two sides of Islamist fanaticism, the Shia side and Sunni side. But it is not illegitimate. It is for the voter to decide whether it is enough.

BERMAN: He said he is a great delegator. I don't think any other candidates said they are going to delegate foreign policy. You know, normally, Hugh, when you hear about gotcha questions or you hear about pop quizzes, it's people accusing the media being, you know, liberal media. You aren't exactly a part of the liberal media or the establishment. I mean, you know, you are a conservative radio host. You worked for Richard Nixon and Ronald Reagan. So, are you used to this type of push back?

HEWITT: Yes. But if you have done 60 interviews with candidates, some of them don't like questions. Jeb Bush didn't know about the Ohio class submarine. And I usually ask people about that. He said I will get back to you on it. You know, it is not embarrassing to be called out by a question by a host.

Here is the deal, a gotcha question, I think, John, is when you quiz someone on something that the ordinary presidential candidate couldn't be expected to know. The president of Niger, or you know, what's the number of nuclear weapons that Pakistan has on deployment at any given time. Those are gotcha questions.

I gave Donald Trump the names of leaders of the terrorist groups I was interested in. I gave him the Hamas, Hezbollah, I wasn't trying to trip him up. I want to get to the key question which is whether or not the Iran deal is make Israel less secure and us less secure in the long run. There is an argument out there it helps us. That it is actually going to assist the west and Israel by bringing ISIS to, to heel with the assistance of General Soleimani, who by the way came up in the first debate. And Donald Trump talked about him before. And in the course of my conversation, Donald even remembered Soleimani. Just took him a little bit a time for that name to strike gold.

BERMAN: It wasn't the names, I have to tell you. Wasn't the names, whether he knew them or not, that struck me, it wasn't the Quds Force versus the Kurds. It was when you started talking about Hezbollah and Hamas and also the leaders and he said they wouldn't be around. Listen to his answer here.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: The names you just mention, they probably went be there in six months or a year.

HEWITT: I don't know, Nasrallah's got such staying power.

TRUMP: And you know, what? In that case, first day in office or before then, right, the day after the election, I will know more about that in you will ever know.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: This wasn't not knowing certain names. This was affirmatively asserting that some of the most important terrorist leaders in the world, (INAUDIBLE), that they're going to be gone in the next six months to a year. To me if he is suggesting that, won't it mean the Obama, you know, anti-terrorist policy is wildly successful?

HEWITT: I think he is referring to the fact that occasionally a drone will take out one of the bad guys. And I hope, I hope the bad guys are gone. I hope he is right.

But I also think, and here I am, defending Donald Trump after he called me a third-rate announcer, it is legitimate to say that once you get nominated, you begin to receive intelligence briefings the say you are the party nominee. And that is true. And I am quite certain that whoever is the next president will know more than I, or you or anybody who is watching right now on the first day that they receive their first intelligence briefing.

That said, I would love to know why he thinks Nasrallah who has been there 20 years will be gone. Because we are not in the habit of drone striking Hezbollah. And Israel hasn't been able to remove him either in two decades.

BERMAN: Right. Last question, you say you now have your Donald Trump tattoo. What part of your anatomy do you have the tattoo?

HEWITT: We got to keep that that quiet. We got to keep the people guessing.

BERMAN: Hugh Hewitt, thank you so much for your time.

HEWITT: Thank you, John.

BERMAN: Some things remain a secret.

Having heard that, we will see what our political panel makes of it and how they think it might affect a candidate who seems to defy the laws of political gravity and gaffes.

Also breaking news, we are just learning about what investigators are calling a significant new piece of evidence in the killing of an Illinois police lieutenant. We'll have a live update.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:13:39] BERMAN: We are talking about Donald Trump's tussle with conservative radio host Hugh Hewitt. And the front-runner today called him a third-rate, radio announcer. Mr. Hewitt left him for a loss for answers yesterday when he asked about the leaders of Hezbollah, Hamas and Quds force. Got you game says Donald Trump fair game, says Hugh Hewitt. Something to talk about with our panel says that's have to do anchor tonight. First though, a less confrontational but just as colorful moment from that interview. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HEWITT: You know, every developer in Manhattan, you know everything about building buildings, you could build a wall. I have no doubt about it.

TRUMP: Right. By the way, and nobody knows how easy that would be. I mean it would be -- it would be tall. It would be powerful. We would make it very good looking. It would be as good a wall is going to be. And people will not be climbing over that wall, believe me.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: Joining us now is CNN political commentators, Jeffrey Lord, Ana Navarro. Jeffrey is something of a Trump supporter, who served as a White House political director for Ronald Reagan. Ana is a Bush supporter and a close friend of Marco Rubio. Also joining us Rick Wilson, media strategist for the National Republican Trust.

And Rick, you know, I feel like over the last month, we have discussed all sorts of things that normally might hurt a candidate. All sorts of things Donald Trump has done. But nothing seems to hurt Donald Trump or negatively affect his poll numbers. So, will this interaction with Hugh Hewitt be anything different?

[20:15:04] RICK WILSON, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Look, I think the people that are committed to Donald Trump are committed to Donald Trump. We have talked about this before. They have, they have an almost willful defiance of any contradictions in his policy statements, of almost willful defiance of any gaps in his knowledge. And you know, they were out within minutes on social media saying, well, it actually shows that Donald Trump is a real leader because he doesn't know these things and he'll just delegate them out.

I mean, it is an amazing -- I call it the Trump reality distortion field. And they frequently end up getting these, these, these ideas in their heads that Donald Trump has said something therefore it is a fact. It is, it is, the only fact in the universe on these things.

And it is really, it's puzzling because, you know, he didn't know those things. Own up to it, you know. We council people would do a media treading all the time. If you didn't have an answer, say it. I don't know the answer. Handle it, you know. But he tried to bull through it. And he did, you know, he did, have his Quds versus Kurds excuse. But the fact of the matter is, his voters, his constituency right now, they don't care. He could have said those are space aliens from another world here to discuss strength theory with our academics. And they would say yes, that's what it really is. They're disconnected from the fact side of the equation.

BERMAN: Well, Jeffrey Lord that's not exactly what he said. He didn't bring up space aliens in this case. What he said is that I don't have to know this because I can delegate. I can hire people who will know about foreign policy. And I'm going to stipulate, Jeffrey Lord, that this may not hurt him very much.

But let me ask you in a vacuum. You, Jeffrey Lord, do you want your candidates running for president, seeking a Republican nomination to know the difference between Hamas and Hezbollah?

JEFFREY LORD, FORMER REAGAN WHITE HOUSE POLITICAL DIRECTOR: What I want them to have, John, is judgment. You know, I did work for Ronald Reagan. And Ronald Reagan was frequently accused of not knowing the details and things. That happened all the way through his presidency, not to mention when he was just a candidate.

When he showed up to meet with Jimmy Carter after he was president elect, Carter had this long memo of things that he went over with and he was very disturbed that Ronald Reagan never took a note. George W. Bush as we have seen, you know, on "CNN TONIGHT" flubbed the same kind of thing back in 1999.

Let me say for Hugh Hewitt. I have met Hugh a few times. I have been on his radio show. I have enormous respect for him. I really do disagree with this though. I think we are talking about the fundamental operation of the presidency. And it is important that we have judgment here. The details can be filled in by all kinds of people on the staff. But the judgment is, is critical here. And that I think is what Donald Trump has and that's what his supporters like about him.

BERMAN: Ana, you know, the recent CNN poll in Iowa, voters were asked who they though would do the best job in handling terrorism, terrorist groups like Hamas or Hezbollah, for instance. But overwhelmingly, they said that the best candidate would be Donald Trump. You think that will stick?

ANA NAVARRO, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: You know, I think Rick is right. I think it is going to stick with his committed supporters. But I think some of the people who are iffy, who are maybe giving him a second look are going to have some doubts. Because look, the bottom line is, you know, the "Apprentice" may make for a good reality TV show. But it would make I think some people including myself very nervous to think that you have an apprentice in the situation room when it concerns national security and our country is in danger.

You know, the questions he was asked, frankly, normal people shouldn't know them. But anybody who is running for president should know them. Particularly because he was asked basically the same question during the Republican debates a month ago. And everybody else that goes on this program gets asked, tough, defense and foreign policy question. This is not a gotcha question.

But I don't expect that he will have a cost. Listen, you know, he went after Megyn Kelly. He was a quasi-deity within conservatives and his numbers went up. Now, he is taking the same exact tactic against Hugh Hewitt. And I wouldn't be surprised at this point his numbers continue going up.

BERMAN: You know, Rick, what is a gotcha question? I mean, if asking about terrorist leaders, if asking about world situation is a gotcha question, where's the limit?

WILSON: Well, look, I do think there is a point, and Hugh acknowledged it earlier. And by every, by every account, he is one of the most fair and intelligent commentators and talk show host out there. But, you know look he didn't ask Donald Trump, you know, who is the deputy foreign minister of Pakistan? He didn't ask Donald Trump, you know what are the locations of the Chinese ICBM fields? Those are gotcha questions.

But having a broad understanding of the general layout of the political structure in the Middle East, having a broad understanding of how Iran's attempt to establish itself as a sort of regional Gemini (ph), works in, in the, the deployment that they have of resources to Hamas and Hezbollah and the Quds force and IRGC and everything else. Those are things that, you know, I think, that a president who has those level of base line knowledge on those things and I agree with Jeffrey.

Judgment is the most important thing. General philosophical orientation and understanding how to manage those things is one thing. But you know, there is a difference between the guy who is just a manager and the delegator but is dumb as a bag of hair and the guy who is the super nerd who can't, you know, just make a decision for his life. So, you want somewhere in the middle of that range.

[20:20:40] BERMAN: We'll leave it right there. We will let the audience decide which one you think Donald Trump is.

Jeffrey Lord, Ana Navarro, Rick Wilson. Thanks so much for being with us.

NAVARRO: Thank you, John.

LORD: Thanks, John.

BERMAN: Next, we do have breaking news. What authorities are calling a significant new piece of evidence in the murder of a beloved police lieutenant north of Chicago. We will get the very latest from two officers leading the investigation in the search for three suspected killers.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:25:01] BERMAN: Breaking news tonight in Fox Lake Illinois where that manhunt for three suspected cop killers is now on its fourth day. Just a short time ago, an investigator told CNN a significant new evidence related to the case was found today at the crime scene.

Ryan Young joins me with the very latest.

Ryan, this latest news, significant evidence found at the crime scene. What can you tell us?

RYAN YOUNG, CNN CORRESPONDENT: John, we have actually been back to the crime scene ourselves today. What we were told by the chief is they have been out there all day trying to look at it, find more evidence. They used weed whackers, machetes, and just got on the ground themselves kind of look around.

And today, someone found a significant piece of evidence. And as you know, John, they're not sharing a lot of information about what they found. But they do believe they did find a new clue. And that goes along with the video they have been talking about. Video that have been stitched together by the FBI to create a timeline so they kind of figure out more clues and extra information involved in the case.

BERMAN: So there is new surveillance video we heard about, although, that is not released to the public. And the significant piece of evidence they found. We even know whether it is an object?

YOUNG: That's one of the questions that we wanted to ask ourselves. But obviously, they're not going to answer that question just yet. They did talked about the video. Look, they had surveillance video, not only from businesses but from homeowners and the department of transportation. Someone at department of transportation decided to hold some of the video that they normally would recycle through. And now, they are going to create a master timeline of the entire area. And that way when they stitch this together and you add the fact they got more evidence at the scene. And investigators are still out there even a half-hour ago. You can really see they're working through this before they share extra information with us.

BERMAN: All right, Ryan Young for us. Thank you very much.

That new information that Ryan just told us about, it came from two men, joining us right now, two men very much part of this investigation, leading the search for what could be three suspected cop killers. Chief George Filenko is the commander of the lake county major crime task force. Detective Christopher Covelli of the lake county sheriff's department joins us as well.

Chief Filenko, let me ask you. This evidence, this new piece of significant evidence discovered at the crime scene, can you tell us anything about what it is?

CHIEF GEORGE FILENKO, COMMANDER, LAKE COUNTY MAJOR CRIME TASK FORCE: No, unfortunately I can't. We are trying to maintain the chain of custody as afar as releasing information about any type of forensic evidence that we have collected. That is part of our criminal investigative process.

BERMAN: And Chief, it took several days to find this piece of evidence. Why so long? Why wasn't it uncovered right away?

FILENKO: Well, this area is slightly remote. It is wooded. We are dealing with some extreme conditions out there, high grass, brush, trees. Literally for the last several days, our evidence technicians have gone out there on a daily basis with machetes, weed whackers. Today they were down on their hand and knees doing grid searches. And one of them recovered this piece of evidence.

BERMAN: This new video that is being analyzed. Ryan Young tells us, you are going to try to put together a timeline of this video and maybe others in the neighborhood. What kind of light does that shed on the suspects? And, how are you deciding whether or not to release this to the public?

FILENKO: Well, at this point, it is really not necessary to release it to the public. What we are trying to do is piece together, with the assistance of the FBI crime lab, video that has been collected, collected from a number of locations. And what they're going to do is they're going to consolidate that video because some of it is pretty lengthy, eight to 24 hours. And then they're going to put it in chronological order for us. And we are going to see what kind of images we can extract from the video. And if we can identify the individuals on the video.

BERMAN: There are three guys in the video. Can you confirm that?

FILENKO: That's correct.

BERMAN: And their races, we heard two white men, one black man, that's what the lieutenant Glineiwicz radioed in before his last transmission?

FILENKO: That is also correct.

BERMAN: All right, Detective Covelli, I understand the police presence has been beefed up ahead of the holiday. Do you still think that these killers, these suspected killers might be in the area?

DETECTIVE CHRISTOPHER COVELLI, LAKE COUNTY SHERIFF'S DEPARTMENT: We think that is a strong possibility. We don't have any indication at this point to indicate they have left the community or left the immediate area. They could be in a surrounding town or surrounding village. And that is a strong reason why we have beefed up the patrols so much. We are going to have a large influx of people from the city of Chicago and elsewhere coming in for the weekend for the holiday weekend to go out on the chain of lakes. And we want to ensure everybody out here feels safe and knows we are out here to protect them.

BERMAN: And Chief, to go back to the video for a second. If you have identified the race of the men. At what point would it be advantageous to ask the public's help. Because if you can see enough of the guys to get images to get recognizable images, won't you want people out there looking?

[20:30:00] FILENKO: Well, our process involves identifying these individuals through our sources within the police department. And some of the witnesses or I'm sorry, some of the individuals that have come forward and offered up information. This could simply be a matter of sitting with some of the police officers that are familiar with the area and having them view these images and seeing if they can identify them first.

BERMAN: Do you think you are close to names of suspects?

FILENKO: I'm sorry, can you repeat that?

BERMAN: Do you think you are close to getting the names of any suspects?

FILENKO: I believe we are close.

BERMAN: Why? Based on what we are seeing. And some of the preliminary results in the videos. We're believing and going into the direction that there is somebody within the police department here, or within our investigative group that is going to be able to identify these individuals.

FILENKO: All right, well, that is a piece of new information. Chief Filenko, Detective Vally (ph), thank you so much for being with us.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you.

FILENKO: Thank you.

BERMAN: Coming up. I'm going to speak to the attorney for the county clerk who is now in jail for refusing to issue marriage licenses to same-sex couples. He says the licenses her deputies are now issuing are not valid. I will ask him why.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:35:35]

BERMAN: William Smith Jr. and James Yates made history today becoming the first same sex couple to receive a marriage license in Rowan County, Kentucky. Before today they tried five times to get a marriage license. But they were turned away by county clerk Kim Davis. A deputy clerk assisted them today and other gay couples as well. Davis remains in jail after being held in contempt yesterday by judge. She says that issuing marriage licenses to same sex couples violates her religious beliefs. She also says the license issued to Mr. Smith and Mr. Yates and the other gay couples today, that those licenses are invalid. Today her husband said his wife is prepared to remain in jail until a compromise is reached. Matthew Staver is Kim Davis' attorney and the founder and chairman of Liberty Counsel. He joins me tonight. Mr. Staver, as of right now your client is still in jail. How long does she plan on remaining there?

MATHEW STAVER, ATTORNEY FOR KIM DAVIS: Well, I don't know how long she is going to be there. But I do know that she has resolved two things. Number one, she is not going to resign because the people voted her in this position, and they want her to remain as the county clerk. And number two, and most importantly she will not violate her conscience. So she is ready for the consequences of those decisions. I hope that we can get her out very quickly. She should never have been confined in jail. It's a disturbing thing when you visit a client like Kim Davis and you see her dressed in orange jumpsuit, treated like a prisoner.

BERMAN: There were marriage licenses issued today without your client's signature on them. Do you think those licenses are valid?

STAVER: No, they're not valid. Because they're not authorized by the clerk of Rowan County, which is Kim Davis. And she has been very resolute on that. These licenses are not valid. In fact, even the judge himself said during the hearing, that he wasn't going to state whether these licenses are valid. His only concern was not whether they were valid. But whether his order was going to be complied with.

BERMAN: The Rowan County ...

STAVER: Basically, these licenses are not valid. BERMAN: The Rowan County attorney Cecil Watkins says that deputy

clerks can issue the licenses, so that appears to be at least in dispute, something that will be taken up at some point.

But let me ask you this, does your client have a problem with them being issued without her signature?

STAVER: Well, she has a problem with them being issued under her authority as the clerk of the court. So, it's like issuing something under the name President Obama or issuing it under the president of the United States of America. You know it's the same person.

BERMAN: Is her name on the marriage certificate?

STAVER: Her name today, or most recently, on these issuances by the deputy clerks wasn't on the certificate. They're supposed to be on the certificate. That's the typical way that it is supposed to be filled out. They did not put her name on there. However, her authority as the clerk of the court still remains there. And so, we have asked from the very beginning, from the very first time we were ever in court. That her name and the title of her as the clerk of the court, of Rowan County be removed. These could be issued under the authority of the commonwealth of Kentucky. But not under the clerk. When you say it is Kim Davis, or you say it is the clerk of Rowan County, you know it is the same person, it's Kim Davis.

BERMAN: I've heard you compare your client to Martin Luther King. And she is standing by this decision based on her conscience. I don't think anyone does doubt her conscience or her beliefs here. But there are others who say this isn't a case of Martin Luther King standing up for the individual rights versus the government. This is more like George Wallace who's standing in the schoolhouse door, trying to keep - or standing at the university trying to keep students from going in. Inserting the government's role in the way of citizens?

STAVER: Well, George Wallace is completely an opposite. You have constitutional amendment that ultimately protect discrimination on the basis of race and someone's skin color. In George Wallace's case he was clearly going against clearly defined constitutional principles. She is standing like Martin Luther King Jr. and many others on the principle of conscience.

BERMAN: But ...

STAVER: He was standing for principles of justice.

BERMAN: The opinion in the Supreme Court. The 5-4 opinion was based on the 14th Amendment, was it not?

STAVER: That is a joke that it's based on the 14th Amendment. You read the opinion. It's based on absolutely nothing in the Constitution.

[20:40:00]

STAVER: Nothing in the court's precedent. In fact, John Roberts calls them five lawyers. I've never seen ...

BERMAN: But John Roberts was in the minority. The way the Supreme Court works, sir, is that it is a majority decision, it was a 5-4 ruling by the Supreme Court.

STAVER: Yeah, it was a 5-4 ruling. And the Supreme Court, the Dred Scott decision, as well, they did the Buck v. Bell, and say you could forcefully sterilize them. They have been horribly wrong throughout their history. That doesn't mean that - and in fact, this is not even, Kim Davis' matter is not even a direct challenge to the United States Supreme Court. All she is asking for is an accommodation based on her conscience. We can debate the lack of authority or whichever way you want to come down on this 5 to 4 opinion all night. That's not the issue for Kim Davis at this point. But the issue is, is having that 5-4 opinion now. How can you accommodate her conscience? The four dissenters clearly saw this train wreck coming. And now, two months from this decision we have the first Christian, person of faith and conscience in jail. In jail. Think about that. Two months from a Supreme Court opinion, and you have got a person sitting right now in this country in jail for what? A prisoner of conscience? You know, she might be behind bars, but her conscience will always remain free. And I don't think the majority of American people will look at this and say this is the kind of America that we want. Surely, we can tolerate, surely we can accommodate Kim's and other people like her in their religious convictions and conscience.

BERMAN: But there are people who will say around the country that they also want to accommodate those same-sex couples who would like to be married in Rowan County and would not, would rather not wait?

STAVER: Well, if you want to get a marriage license, and in fact the plaintiffs wanted one, they could drive 30 minutes in any direction. There are 130-some locations, 120 clerks.

BERMAN: If your client doesn't want to issue marriage licenses, she can quit.

STAVER: Well, that's up to the people. She's been there for 27 years. Her mother was the clerk of court for 40 years before that. And the people elected her. She won the Democratic primary. Won against the Republican contender. It is the people who put her there, and the people have a chance or choice to change their mind.

BERMAN: Mr. Staver, I do appreciate your time being with us. I think a lot of people agree that having someone in jail right now is not the optimal solution. So hopefully something can be worked out in the near future to accommodate everyone. Mr. Staver, thank you.

STAVER: Thank you, my pleasure.

BERMAN: Coming up. The big new development for thousands of refugees fleeing violence in the Middle East. They took to the roads in Hungary. Walking. Mile after mile. Hoping for salvation. Just moments ago, we learned that help for them has arrived. Arwa Damon is with them. We will get the very latest from her next.

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BERMAN: More breaking news. Last night about this time, we talked to Arwa Damon who was in a parked railroad car in Hungary surrounded by desperate and stranded refugees fleeing violence in the Middle East. Today, something extraordinary happened with many of those people. They walked, leaving the train station, walking for miles, ready to walk hundreds of miles across Europe. If that's what it takes to find safety. Now, just minutes ago, we learned they might be getting some serious help. Buses provided by the Hungarian government. They have arrived. Arwa Damon is there. We believe, Arwa has been able to get on one of those buses. I see you right now, Arwa, what's the very latest?

ARWA DAMON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Just take a look at how packed this bus is. And this is one of the ones that just arrived now waiting to begin. But everyone hopes and anticipates to be that journey towards the Austrian border. A number of buses have gone past us already. A lot of commotion, though, surrounding the whole debate as to whether or not they should get on these buses. Because there was very widespread fear that the Hungarian government was not necessarily taking them to the border, but instead taking them into this camp. So, what they did, was sent one bus as a test case. It made it all the way to the border. And now everyone else has boarded these buses. A lot of chaos as people were smooshing through the doors, desperate to get on. They had been walking for eight to nine hours. They slept for a few hours in the field. It's just started to rain down a little bit. So this is the beginning of what they can only hope is going to be potentially the last leg of their journey. They want to cross into Austria, they want going right away all the way to Germany, John.

BERMAN: So, one bus did get through. Now there are others including the one you are on. Headed to the border for these people. They believe they hope they're going to get into Austria just to be clear after this, unbelievable ordeal of escaping Syria and Iraq. However they did that. Sleeping in the Budapest train station and then hiking on the highway for miles and miles and miles. They really think this is the last leg?

DAMON: They hope it is. And they so desperately hope it is. Because they're so tired. They are emotionally and physically drained. The children are exhausted. Parents, nerves are absolutely frayed. Because as you were saying, not only that they escaped Iraq and Syria, they then risked their children's lives to try to make that treacherous journey across the Aegean, the Mediterranean. This bus seems as if it is just about to start moving on its journey as well. But then once - and we are moving. But then once they actually made it to the Greek island they then began walking through Greece. In some cases, walking through Macedonia, Serbia. If they are lucky, riding trains, buses, a lot of nights spent sleeping in the streets. Sleeping in the forests. That especially hard on the children who really can't deal with seeing their children in this circumstance, John. So, yes, there is that hope. Because as so many say hope is all they really have to cling to at this stage. That this might be that last leg of the journey. That they will get to Austria and then onwards to Germany. BERMAN: Again, just the poor people - to see what you are seeing here. It is Arwa Damon on a bus right now that just began moving in Hungary.

[20:50:01]

BERMAN: Hopefully these people are heading to Austria right now. It's a remarkable image, Arwa to see this bus finally going. What happens when they get to Austria? Or ultimately to Germany? How will they set up a life?

DAMON: Well, they'll then have to go into the system. Bearing in mind that both Austria and Germany are fairly overwhelmed with the numbers that they have already been receiving. But there is the whole asylum application process. They will be put into temporary refugee shelters. And then, eventually, at some point in time, they will start being able to send the kids to school. The adults will begin learning German or whatever language it is in the nation that they end up in. They will begin getting jobs. They will begin being able to restore a little bit of their dignity that they lost throughout this entire journey. And they will hopefully be able to build a future. Because the reason why so many of these families left, especially those with the kids and why they risked their kids' lives it's because a future doesn't exist for them back in their homeland. They don't have a chance there. Yes, they got to Turkey. Yes, Turkey is safe. But they can't build a life for their children in Turkey. Or in any of the other neighboring countries to Syria and Iraq. At that's why they make this journey. Because if they stay back in their homeland. They say the kids most certainly would have ended up dead. It's also because not just about their own physical security. It is about securing them a future and a life.

BERMAN: Quickly, Arwa, we've got about 20 second left. Was there rejoicing when they got on this bus and when it started moving? Or are they just too exhausted at this point even for that?

DAMON: There is relief. I think the rejoicing will come at the minute that they actually physically get out of Hungary and get into Austria, John.

BERMAN: Arwa Damon for us on a bus right now with people hoping to get out of Hungary into Austria after a journey that simply, harrowing, death-defying, for them. And in some cases, brothers, many have lost their lives on this journey. Arwa Damon, thank you so very much.

Coming up for us, at "360 Exclusive," the Justice Department launches a fraud investigation involving billions of dollars in government contracts that are supposed to go to helping severely disabled get jobs.

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BERMAN: Tonight, a "360 Exclusive," the federal program called Ability One that uses your taxpayer dollars to provide jobs to disabled people, which was the subject of a recent exclusive investigative report right here on "360." It is now on the crosshairs of the Department of Justice. What could be just the first of many raids across the country took place this week in Memphis at an unlikely location. Goodwill industries in Memphis is a multimillion dollar subcontractor with that federal program taking in millions of dollars supposedly to hire the severely disabled. Agents raided offices of Goodwill trying to find evidence they're not. At stake, $2.3 billion in tax money doled out by a little known federal agency called Ability One, which sources tell CNN is alleged to be involved in a nationwide corruption scheme. Here's CNN's senior investigative correspondent Drew Griffin.

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DREW GRIFFIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: CNN cameras were on site at the Goodwill headquarters in Memphis, Tennessee Wednesday as dozens of federal agents swarmed this parking lot. It's all part of a massive nationwide investigation into alleged fraud, insider dealing, and bid rigging on federal contracts. Contracts that are supposed to go to helping severely disabled get jobs. No one inside is talking. The person described to CNN as a manager here led away to his car without comment. As CNN first reported in July, nearly $2.3 billion in government contracts earmarked to hire the severely disabled are at stake. And the investigation CNN has learned, goes way beyond Goodwill industries in Memphis. It is, in fact, part of a nationwide probe into possibly dozens of government contractors who may be violating the law.

The government agency that is in charge of awarding contracts, is called Ability One. And the entire program is now under investigation by the Justice Department and several inspectors general. Goodwill in Memphis has multimillion dollar Ability One contracts with the IRS, the Veterans Affairs and the Public Services Building Agency. Get an Ability One contract, the government requires 75 percent of the work be performed by people who are severely disabled. This former hiring manager says that the Ability One contractor she used to work for, the company would fill the tens of millions of dollars in contracts with just about anyone who walked in the door.

(on camera): So, you could say 100 percent of employees are severely disabled.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Correct.

GRIFFIN: And none of them are?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right.

GRIFFIN: And you would still have this contract?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right. Because there is nobody checking.

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BERMAN: Drew, Goodwill is the name that a lot of people know, a lot of people have very positive thoughts about it. This is going to come as a shock to them?

GRIFFIN: Yeah, John, this raid took place searching for evidence that Goodwill industries in Memphis is one of these contractors across the country that's been awarded federal contracts specifically to hire the severely disabled and according to our sources, they're not. It's a lot of money too. $22 million to this Memphis office alone since 2010.

BERMAN: Has Goodwill responded?

GRIFFIN: Only that they're cooperating. We've heard nothing from the international headquarters and nothing at all, John, from the most important agency in all of this. That's Ability One. The presidential commission that is supposed to be checking on the disability hires, and according to our sources is deliberately allowing these contracts to go to contractors who aren't meeting these Federal guidelines. A lot more to come in almost every part of the country on this, John.

BERMAN: All right, Drew Griffin thank you so much.

That does it for us. Thanks for watching. "Death Row Stories" starts now.