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Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees
Two Dead Suspects: One Male, The Other Female; Police: Suspects In SUV Had Assault Rifles; At Least 14 Killed, 17 Wounded in California Mass Shooting. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired December 02, 2015 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:00]
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: The police presence has been on the scene although they were clearly staking this apartment out after the initial slaughter because they saw the vehicle leave but it would seem that they have not actually gone in to the apartment yet or perhaps they just have with this robotic device.
SCOTT GLOVER, CNN JUSTICE REPORTER: That is my feeling. They had yet to enter the apartment and cram now that's how it seems. But it's a fluid situation. And I cannot see the area where they would enter. I can't see the front door. And so I don't know what's happened since they made the announcements.
COOPER: OK.
GLOVER: The -- what appears to be the robotic device has not been used yet. I'm looking at that now. That's much closer to me than the location that they are standing in front of.
COOPER: OK. And obviously it's prudent of them to use a robotic device given the concern. First of all, they are still searching the area, the initial area, the Inland Regional Center because they said there was something that they potentially believe to be an explosive device on the scene. A device was thrown out of a vehicle that was -- I believe it was rendered or rendered it so. And they're being very cautious about the SUV because of what the chief to police referred to sensitive stuff around the vehicle itself.
So, it would make sense that they would be very cautious about entering this apartment since the it's top of the hour, I just want to kind of take a breath here and bring all of our viewers who are just joining us up to date on what is going on right now.
The FBI tonight is not ruling out terrorism in the deadliest mass shooting since Sandy Hook. At least 14 are known dead. 17 people wounded at a Social Services Center in San Bernardino, California.
Reports of three killers spotted leaving the scene in a black SUV. And police spotted that SUV or LSUV leaving an apartment complex in Redlands and that's were where just taking. Scott Glover, our reporter who's on the scene there. A shooting with two suspects there ensued at a later location. A man and woman were killed. Separately, a man and woman were killed there. A third person was seen leaving the area and was arrested not clear if that person had anything to do with this. The person may have been in the wrong place at the wrong time. Police were still investigating that.
Now that apartment in neighboring city of Redlands that is surrounded FBI agent and local law enforcement. There was a robotic device on the scene. They have just made an announcement saying that anybody in that apartment should come out. The question of course that is not known at this point is what motivated these killers.
Justice reporter Evan Perez was just reporting that law enforcement, his sources believe that the person was in this holiday party. And it was a holiday party of county health -- for a county health agency employee that a person was at this party. There was some sort of altercation or dispute. The person left and then came back with others and that's when the killings began.
Now, we just got in the recording of the police radio traffic officers caught up to the black SUV as well as during the chase and the shootout, this is the first time we're hearing this. Let's listen.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK, last seen in the Ally way heading toward school. Do we have a clothing description?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Male, dark skin is all I have on this frequency.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You dig at that and then (inaudible).
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: North 2, do you have them go there? Don't bring any more people here unless it's a SWAT team, that's it.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Roger, what's your exact location?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're at San Bernardino and Shedden, San Bernardino and Shedden. One guy down and one guy in the back of a car and we've had a bear cat.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just for the update actually that we have the suspect vehicle stopped. We go ahead and extract it. You just standby, wait for the bear cat.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Copy.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: North 2, right now we have one down outside the car, one down inside the car or, well, we don't know, hold on. And then from what we understand on what's on the run.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
COOPER: All right. So again, conflicting confusion reports there. So you get a sense of the chaos of the scene, you hear shots in the background. You hear the last officer saying one suspect down. We saw that suspect down on the street early on if you were watching the helicopter coverage from the local affiliate there. And a long gun by the side of the person. The officer then saying that he believed there was --the second suspect was down in the vehicle itself. And then talked about somebody on the run but again, that seems to conflict with what the chief was saying earlier which was they search that whole area based on people calling in saying that somebody was jumping fences, the chief said he wasn't sure if that was police jumping fences which they were, as well, and but they searched that area and feel that area is no longer -- people are not any threat in that area.
[21:05:09] We're joined by Harry Houck and Chris Swecker and Lenny DePaul, Art Roderick, Bob Baer, Jonathan Gilliam, Dan Bongino. Jonathan Gilliam, let's just checking with you, it's still confusing about this third suspect certainly the status of this person if this person even exists?
JONATHAN GILLIAM, FORMER FBI SPECIAL AGENT: You know I think that's important thing here Anderson because as we've seen in past incidents such as the Boston bombing, once they got the other known, known person then they just said we've got everybody and everybody started celebrating. This is important because this is still on going because they think they may potentially have a third person involved. And when you're looking at groups like this, the first time that I know in recent history where a female has actually partaken in this, that shows us that there's tactics involved that we're not used to.
So we have to look at this as the potential, what it could possibly be? Which is a terrorist attack, and it's important to define what terrorism is? Terrorism is the use of violence to instill fear or intimidation in a culture for political change. So that's going to really be the determining factor of what happened in this initial incident but we can definitely determine that this is an active situation that's going on in the Redlands right now.
COOPER: And of course as many forms of terrorism, you can talk about groups that are domestic, terrorism agenda, there are internation groups, obviously, there are terrorist agenda as well. Chris Swecker, what is the number of FBI agents involved in this tells you? It seems like a huge number?
CHRIS SWECKER, FORMER FBI ASSISTANT DIRECTOR: Yeah, the L.A. Office is one of the largest FBI field offices just second to New York and listen about it, I've work within the pass, I can tell that this level of resource commitment by the FBI this early tells me that there is a high likely hood this is terrorism. They would not be applying evidence response teams to different crime scenes and there at least three that we know up right now, to search that's on or the search that's about to happen. It just tells me as these resource levels mound and this resource commitment gets higher and higher that there is a higher likelihood that this is terrorism.
COOPER: And I should just point out what that FBI official said publicly, he said it is a possibility they're making some adjustments to the investigation and wasn't clear on what that means and maybe I'll check in with you Chris on that but few potential things, which point them to terrorism. What do you think it means they are making adjustments to the investigation?
SWECKER: That tells me they are bringing in resources from other field offices around the country. More expertise in evidence recovery, more resources in the area of render safe, bomb render safe skills, more agents being able to just knock on doors and do gun shoot work and do analytics and bring in information, exploit computer hard drives. I think it's all hands on deck at this point.
And I'm just reading based on what Dave said and based on how I know the FBI operates. So, I think with that level of commitment with those adjustments that you're talking about, Anderson, I think this is beginning to look more and more what we thought it was in the beginning.
COOPER: And when you say terrorism, you could be international and could be some domestic actors?
SWECKER: Correct. The fact that they're domestic actors it didn't necessarily make...
COOPER: I mean their agenda, not obviously they could be homegrown terrorists...
SWECKER: Right.
COOPER: ... lone wolf, you know, but it could be an international focus. It could be religion focused. It could be political. It could be anything in this stage you're saying.
SWECKER: Yeah, exactly. I'm saying terrorism domestic or international. But if it's inspired or facilitated via the internet, via relations with people overseas then it becomes international terrorism. Domestic terrorism is strictly home grown ideology, not inspired overseas by terrorist organization overseas. So it remains to be seen. And we don't want to split hairs at this point but it looks more and more like terrorism.
COOPER: Bob Baer, obviously, a little bit international experience, former CIA officer, what do you see?
BOB BAER, FORMER CIA OFFICER: Anderson, I have got my biases of course. And it's looking like terrorism. Just look at the nature of the attack, it was a military assault, two gunman at least, man and woman, assault rifles. They left apparently IED or what looked like one at the entrance to hold up the police.
When they ran from police they were throwing apparently pipe bombs out. The break up contract, those kinds of tactics you don't get off the internet. You have to train for those. You have to plan them long in advance. I can't explain the nature of the target.
[21:10:00] But what also disturbs me about this it looks like terrorism is these two apparently were ready to die. I mean in a situation like this, you don't pull a gun on the police and not expect to die. I mean they were being chased. You know, and this is some sort of -- these are people are committed to something. They are not simply like the Colorado Spring Shooter who gave up who is a psychopath and it's unclear whether that was terrorism or not and then which is crazy.
But this is looking more and more like terrorism and my law enforcement contacts in California have been worried about this happening in Southern California for sometime and they have been couple months have been telling me this. They had a suspicion something would occur here. I don't know if it's related but, you know, back to my biases, I have to wonder.
COOPER: And the idea of leaving the scene, leaving the scene, would that lead you to believe they didn't want to die? Would that lead you to believe there was another of the attack that they, you know, they hope to hit multiple locations to kind of sew as much fear as possible?
BAER: Well Anderson, I think it was. I think they studied police response times in that part of California about San Bernardino seven to 12 minutes you get in there and kill as many people as you can. Get away in what they were doing after we don't know. We're going to have to wait for the fact to come in but eh more I hear it, the more it sounds like terrorism. It is not simply a psychopath taking revenge against the people in an auditorium. I think we can pretty well exclude that.
And so, when the FBI says they are going down the terrorism their not excluding it I think there is for good reason and this we've been talking about to bring a lot of resources in that tells me they suspect this terrorism.
COOPER: Lenny DePaul, I mean when you have at least two shooters, male and female, it's very rare to have two psychopaths join together and we saw that in columbine with the two shooters there but that was a that's a very rare instance, isn't it?
LENNY DEPAUL, FMR. U.S. MARSHALS SERVICE REGIONAL FUGITIVE TASK FORCE FOR NEW YOR AND NEW JERSEY: Yes, absolutely and I agree with Bob 100 percent. I mean he hit the nail right on the head. She having a female involved, she was tactically sound she is been trained, I mean she's wearing tactical gear and what not. So, you know, that certainly it leads one down that road that the agent in charge was -- going down.
So, you know, as they gather intelligence, Anderson, that, you know, I don't know if these -- two DOA suspects had cell phones on them. I'm sure they had been dumped, you know, they're doing their homework. So, you know, they probably know a lot more than we do right now. So they're gathering all kinds of Intel and we'll find out shortly.
COOPER: Art Roderick it is interesting they would go back after the shooting to a residence whether it was something they place in the action lived or some place they had just rented or somebody else was there and would leave again, again unknown why they would have left, did they know they were under surveillance, did they want to hit another target or whether they trying to get away?
ART RODERICK, FMR. ASSISTANT DIRECTOR OF THE U.S. MARSHALS OFFICE: I mean I think there were a couple keys and we heard it. You know, why did they have pipe bombs? Where they going to hit anther place but when you put together pipe bombs with a male and a female dressed tactically and using tactical movements and I'm sure that person that went into that conference room at first was we just doing it advance to make sure that this was the right location to hit and everything that's happened afterwards, I mean you have the chief opening the press conference and turning over to the burro and the burro basically admits that there heading down the line of terrorism I think over the next 24 hours we'll not been going to hear more about terrorism but we're also going to have more hits more search warrants executed and now they are trying to take down the whole cell and support system there in California.
COOPER: And were looking a live picture there in Redlands were they are -- at the apartments of that they will have previously been watching and saw SUV leaving. One more thing, Lenny, I mean I think back to the Mumbai attack back in 2008 and one of the things that the Pakistani terrorists did in that attack was they put bombs in taxi cabs and those taxi cabs as drove off without even realizing they were now, you know, vehicle-born explosive devices and the idea was they would explode and not only kill people but distract police and bring police and so fear that there were multiple attacks in multiple salience in various locations. People, you know, if you've got a bunch of pipe bombs and start place them in places and drive off, you can create a lot of havoc.
RODERICK: Yeah, Anderson.
DEPAUL: I mean they're crossing tees and dotting their odds, Anderson. Sorry, Arty.
RODERICK: No, that's fine.
COOPER: There are several hundred people were inside the facility were the shooting took place. Marie Port was one of them she joins us now by Marie. I'm sorry Marie thank you so much for talking to us today. I'm so glad you are safe I know you were across the street when the shooting started. Can you take me through what you saw when you first realized something was going on?
Marie, can you hear me? I think we just...
[21:15:00]
MARIE PORT, SAN BERNARDINO SHOOTING WITNESS: Yeah.
COOPER: Hey, Marie, you're on the air. It's Anderson Cooper. Can you take me through what you saw and what you heard?
PORT: Oh, well, I was in walking across the street and then what do you call it I looked over and there is a shady looking guy and I don't know, I think didn't get a good glimpse of him. But I he looked kind of dark skin. I looked and then it just I saw a big gun, he started shooting. I got scared so we all run like there was a group of us that ran to a building. Yeah and we were just in there like speculating like oh, who it might be and it was pretty scary.
COOPER: So Marie let me ask you where were you and where was this person? This was outside.
PORT: I was outside. He was going into the building.
COOPER: OK so you saw him entering this building you saw him what -- building was he entering?
PORT: He was entering a hospital where the
COOPER: The inland regional center?
PORT: Yes.
COOPER: OK. What -- you said he was dark skinned. Do you know what he was wearing?
PORT: He looked pretty heavy so I think he had gear on.
COOPER: What sort of gear?
PORT: I don't know. It was just a glimpse.
COOPER: Would you say he was wearing dark clothing or light clothing?
PORT: It was pretty dark.
COOPER: OK. And did you get a sense how tall he was, what his face looked like?
PORT: I honestly I really couldn't tell you. It all happened really fast.
COOPER: And when did he start shooting? When he was entering the building or before he?
PORT: Yeah it was like when he went into the building like right there start shooting.
COOPER: Do you have a sense of how many shots you heard?
PORT: I don't know, it was a couple when we went to the building. Shots were going on.
COOPER: And how long was it before police where you there when police arrived?
PORT: Yeah. No, not OK. It happened fast. No, we -- when it just stop you just run out (inaudible).
COOPER: Yeah. Marie Port, I appreciate you talking to us. Thank you very much.
Again, we're back with our panel, Chris Swecker, Lenny De Paul, Art Roderick, Harry Houck, Bob Baer, Jonathan Gilliam and Dan Bongino. Dan, to Bob Baer's point on that more and more the more details that are coming out. Police now saying it was a man male and a female both of whom are dead both of them wearing assaults style clothing and some sort of tactical gear some form of sort of rifle.
They also handguns our Evan Perez reporting two pistols as well as two AR-15 style guns have been recovered. A potential explosive device found at Inland Regional Center perhaps some sense of material around the SUV itself and unclear what's happening right now in that apartment in Redlands that you see in the right hand side of your screen where it's believed the two suspects went after the initial slaughter at the Inland Regional Center and then were seen leaving in and SUV. Police followed that SUV and that's how the encounter finally came to an end.
The big question of course is there a third suspect out there? Dan, in terms of the terrorism angle which Chris back was saying, you know, listening to what former colleague of his who is that the FBI was saying about that it is a possibility the number of agents, the FBI agents that they are bringing in of personnel. The way they are making adjustments to the investigation, it sounds more and more like it could be terrorism. What do you make of that, Dan?
DAN BONGINO, FORMER NYPD OFFICER: Yeah ,couple of points on this, Anderson, the presence of secondary weapons, handguns obviously the presence of what appears to be AR-15 to 556 weapons the presence of pipe bombs. Also one of the things I noticed in the recording of the police scanner was that they were engaging obviously from a moving vehicle and that's not easy to do. One of the things in the secret service we have to learn to do is a shoot for the moving vehicle and the event of a motorcade attack.
And, Anderson, it's not easy, not even easy to shoot in precisely from a moving vehicle. This is not the kind of thing that were just some random criminals spur of the moment action from someone that got kicked out of a party. I think we can -- pretty much wipe that theory out tonight. And then the presence of the FBI, one of their specific areas of expertise in my experience working with them is they are absolutely incredible at crime scenes.
And, Anderson, this is an enormous crime scene. We have the community center we have the toe the route of travel we have shell casings everywhere the FBI as there is no comparable unit I the world that's going to be able to grid this out like they can and gather the evidence that needs to be gathered to ensure this is adequately investigated. They appear less in that respect.
COOPER: I just want to emphasize that we're seeing now the situation here in Redlands, California.
[21:20:02] This still very active situation. It is not clear whether or not there was a third shooter, a third gunman involved in the slaughter that took place in the Inland Regional Center. This is still a very active situation. It is not clear whether or not there was a third shooter -- third gunman involved in the slaughter that took place in the Inland Regional Center. Our early eyewitness report said there was a third person -- a person has been arrested who was leaving the scene where the shootout was later on by that SUV. Police said they don't know whether that person was involved or not.
They searched the area around the SUV, didn't find anything said that area is safe but there's is this apartment now in Redlands where they are being very cautious about actually entering this apartment.
Scott Glover, our reporter there on the scene is back with us on the phone.
So Scott, how long ago was it that you heard police or you heard the FBI announcing on a loud speaker to anybody inside the apartment and what specifically did they say?
GLOVER: It was about half an hour ago and they used, you know, the specific address and they told the occupants at that address to come to the front door. This is the FBI, come to the front door.
They announced that three or four times and, you know, I'm not sure what happened after that. I'm not sure if they attempt to entry from my advantage point I can tell but they did make that announcement several times.
COOPER: And you've been on the scene now for awhile. Just for clarification, we're pretty sure and base on you reporting what you've heard from an officer on the scene, that this is the only active location in Redlands so that would lead you to believe that this is in fact the location that at least two of the shooters went back to after the killings at the Inland Regional Center and then left and were followed by police, correct?
GLOVER: That is correct. After I heard the law enforcement official at the press conference talk about that scenario, I asked a police official here if there was any other active scene in Redlands that person said no, this is the only one. And again, there is a large police presence here, which has grown quite a bit since I first arrived a couple hours ago.
There are, you know, several dozen officers here. I've seen many if not most of them dressed in, you know, military style fatigues, SWAT officers helmets on, heavy SWAT equipment. There is a robotic device that they just took down the street toward the area where it appears they are trying to make entry.
It seems to be a townhome. It looks like, you know, apartment's townhomes that sort of thing I can't say for sure. It's dark out. That's the feel of the place.
COOPER: Jonathan Gilliam in his tactical situation like this, I mean, entering an unknown apartment where although at this perhaps at this point to have maybe a layout if they are able to from the building itself but entering something like this it's going to be extremely dangerous because you have no idea, A, is there somebody inside. Is the apartment itself booby trapped where you've seen other active figure situations when police went to their location, the apartments or their rooms were booby trapped to further create mayhem for any other law enforce that arrive in the scene.
GILLIAM: It's extremely tense for many, many reason there Anderson. One of which you have to make sure that you're first off entering the right apartment and law enforcement we often get Intel that we have to act on quickly and that is something that first and foremost we have to make sure that we're going in the right place.
Secondly, if you're going into a place where you have a warrant and it's unsuspecting, that I would say lowers the tension a little bit but it's still a very tense situation when you go through the door because there is unknowns behind that door even if you do know the layout but in this circumstance, there is no secret that they are coming if in fact one of these individuals got away and they -- these individuals even if that they probably were planning for law enforcement to eventually get there most likely.
So when you enter into that, it's you know, you're not using the same violence of action that you would use if you were going in, in an imminent situation. So this is where they have to back up. They have to look and assess the situation and most likely they're looking for booby traps, for bombs and I think that's probably why I thought I saw a robot there a minute ago. They're going to be slow and methodical as they enter the situation versus if there's a hostage stands off.
COOPER: Yeah, no reason not to be at this point to, you know, protection of the officers going to be paramount here. I think it was in a situation like this can be very confusing. I just want to give our viewers a better idea of the geography of all this, where the events, the horrible events of today played out and are still playing out.
Tom Foreman joins us now with that. Tom, can you just kind of show us where everything took place because I think it's important to see the relationships in terms of how far away they are from each other.
[21:25:06]
TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, I think it's important and it's mysterious this geography. Look, San Bernardino is only about an hour away from Los Angeles. If the gunman in this case had taken off as soon as this happened and try to go away in the amount of time before the next encounter with police look, they could have been in Mexico, they could have been in Las Vegas, they can easily been in L.A.. There are a lot of places they could have reached in that time driving the speed limit.
Instead, what we're talking about right now, Anderson, Redlands over here, this is interstate 10. If you went down interstate 10 from the Redlands, you could be the original scene down here that we were talking about where the shooting happened. This is going to be five, six minutes maybe, a very simple drive. You know what this is over here? This is the other location which is a very short distance from the shooting. This is where that shootout occurred where the street -- in the street with the car there and everything.
So all of this when I say geography is mysterious, it's exactly what you've been talking about, Anderson. Why that these people stay so close to the scene for so long afterward when they could have gone so very far away?
COOPER: Yeah and in terms of securing the area, what' that look like in his neighborhoods?
FOREMAN: Well, you know, we're seeing some of that already. If we move in a little bit closer here, look where this first scene was, where the shootout was. This is what police have to be worried about is all of this area in here if somebody ran away like they thought and if it's not connected to the Redlands' location, look at all the houses out here, all the places where this person could not only hide but encounter other civilians. That's a difficult challenge right now, Anderson. And they still don't know if somebody got away if they stayed here or if the search area is expanding and expanding and expanding.
COOPER: Yeah. You know, there are so many questions at this hour and that's why -- it's great we have this panel that we do Chris Swecker and Lenny DePaul and Art Roderick, Harry Houck, and Bob Baer, Jonathan Gilliam and Dan Bangino and Tom Foreman as well.
Chris Swecker, does it make sense to you that two people -- for now we know at least two would attack, kill 14 plus people or 14 people that we know about, wound many more at the Inland Regional Center and then go back to the apartment that they were at where they then get trail you know, trailed by police?
If they wanted to continue to commit multiple acts, you would think they could have gone directly from the Inland Regional Center to continue to kind of try to create havoc, no?
SWECKER: Well, if this is in fact terrorism, you look at Paris sort of a similar scenario. They went back to places that were easily traceable and so they are really not thinking a whole lot about saving themselves and making an escape.
I think if there is anything they were thinking about doing more damage and maybe they had plans to do just that. So I don't think they were that concerned about making their escape if you will. I think whatever they were doing they were probably regrouping to do something else.
COOPER: Lenny DePaul, do you agree with that because, I mean, they could have just gone directly from the Inland Regional Center gone to another location if they had picked out one and, you know, done something there and then moved on just as, you know, the various groups in Paris attempted to do the group that drove around to the various bars. DEPAUL: Well, I mean, they certainly had ample opportunity and time to get out of dodge if they wanted too, Anderson. I mean, they had a game plan. I mean, they went into this thing. They were trained. They are well equipped and they had a good game plan in place.
I mean, I think you got foiled at the end of this thing and hopefully they will find out as soon that later what the thought process was but to go back to their location, you know, and again, law enforcement at this point you got to do this thing by the numbers and they are methodically searching this places tactically, doing tactical entries, throwing robotics in there and taking a look at everything before they move. So, you know, I salute all the law enforcement folks that are out there right now.
COPER: Yeah, Art Roderick, in an investigation like this, I mean, how quickly do -- does new information come in when you have these numbers of FBI agents, when you have this number of law enforcement personnel working on something and all trying to work together on something.
I mean, they must have already tried to interview people who live in the apartment complex where these people are to gain information about how many people actually lived in that apartment, how many people were seeing coming and going from that apartment. All of that stuff is underway even though this is still an active situation, right?
RODERICK: Yeah, Anderson. It's a lot of information coming in. You're basically drinking through a fire hose but you've got information coming in specifically about support systems, about the crime itself so you've got to kind of filter that through and make sure that that information is getting to the investigators that are handling that portion of the case.
Again, kudos to law enforcement if they are headed to another location they could have very well under estimated the response time of law enforcement.
[21:30:00] When this type of call goes out, anybody on that's on street that's carrying a gun and badge is going to be responding regardless of what agency they work for.
COOPER: I want everybody just to standby. We're going to take a quick break but as we go to break just remind you our viewers what you're looking at.
There's an active situation, an FBI raid underway in an apartment in Redlands, California believed to be the apartment where the two suspects who are now dead shut in shootout with the -- with police killed in that shootout earlier today.
Our believed to have been staying whether they lived there for how long, whether they rented it, we don't know exactly but we believe this is the apartment where the attack was launched from where they went back to after the initial attack to the Inland Regional Center and as they were leaving spotted by the police and followed which ultimately led to the shootout and their deaths. The big question at this hour, is there a third suspect? Is there a third gunman, a third to potential terrorist still out there? Police have one person in custody. They are questioning. A lot of questions remain at this hour.
We're going to take a short break and when we come back, we want to play you the police radio traffic during the shootout that we heard as the suspects were being followed. You hear the gunfire. You hear the confusion and the response by multiple officers in the moment. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: And if you're just joining us, there's an FBI raid underway at apartments in Redlands, California near San Bernardino which where the two deceased suspects in the nation's deadliest mass shooting in Sandy Hook are believed to have launch the attack.
[21:35:08] We've got in our recording the police radio traffic as officers caught up to their black SUV. This is after that black SUV left that apartment in Redlands. The apartment that's now being at some point tonight is going to be searched. They are being obviously very prudent about actually entering that apartment to execute the search warrant to find out, you know, what's inside.
Is there a third person inside, another person inside? What sort of evidence inside? Are there any perhaps booby traps inside but after that SUV left, the police were following that SUV and I want you to listen to the radio traffic and particularly not only the officers and how they were relaying instructions to the radio operator but also you hear shots in the background as well. It's a very kinetic, very fluid situation. Let's listen.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK, last seen in the Ally way heading toward school. Do we have a clothing description?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Male, dark skin is all I have on this frequency.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You dig at that and then (inaudible).
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: North 2, do you have them go there? Don't bring any more people here unless it's a SWAT team, that's it.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Roger, what's your exact location?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're at San Bernardino and Shedden, San Bernardino and Shedden. One guy down and one guy in the back of a car and we've had a bear cat.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just for the update actually that we have the suspect vehicle stopped. We go ahead and extract it. You just standby, wait for the bear cat.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Copy. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: North 2, right now we have one down outside the car, one down inside the car or, well, we don't know, hold on. And then from what we understand on what's on the run.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
COOPER: And that's the radio traffic. We heard that for the first time just about probably 30 minutes or so ago.
That's the scene outside the apartment complex in Redlands, California. It's obviously at a great distance as it should be in a live operation like this, you know, for very obvious reasons and the safety of law enforcement personnel.
We don't want to be showing any live pictures that could give anybody who maybe in that apartment and maybe watching coverage any indication of what's going on outside. They obviously know that search warrant there trying to executed because the FBI has announced on loud speakers to anybody who was inside that apartment to come to the front door.
We've also just got a video of the FBI raid that's still underway. Let's listen to some of that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Come to the front door. It's the FBI. By 3:33, come to the front door it's the FBI.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Again, that was the announcement earlier that our reporter on the scene Scott Glover had been telling us about multiple times, the FBI talking through a loud speaker to anybody who may still be in the apartment.
We don't know if there is. We don't if that apartment is booby trapped. We don't know what awaits law enforcement to go into that apartment. They are obviously being very prudent as they should be.
Chris Swecker, we talked to you earlier and based on your experience with the FBI listening to what the FBI official saying earlier at the press conference earlier this evening about probably -- it was probably about an hour or so ago, the FBI official said very pointedly, terrorism is a possibility.
They are making some adjustments to their investigation and there are a few things that point them in that direction would not go any further down the road but based on the number of FBI personnel we -- you and I were talking earlier and just for our viewer who are joining us, do you think based on the number of resources that the FBI is putting into this, this early on into the investigation it increasingly points to some form of terrorism?
SWECKER: Well, I think so. I mean, just based on how they operate and as what mention earlier, their forensic capabilities, their ability to analyze complex crime scenes is unrivaled and they have the resources. They've got to San Diego office nearby. They've got the San Francisco office, the Sacramento office. They can pull in evidence response teams from those offices and Las Vegas.
So I suspect that's what's happening and they're going to need every bit of the resources to analyze these crime scenes, collect the evidence they need to collect and make sense out of it all and plus as was pointed out earlier, they're going to be going from one -- hopping from one location to another location as leads are developing as they get more information out of the house once they get inside, once they identify more people or identify the people that were part of this I think you're going to see this investigation completely blowup.
COOPER: Chris, you know, just in terms of organization it's got to be so difficult, you know, with people on T.V. and elsewhere we want an answers immediately but just in terms of dotting all the odds and crossing all the tees and making sure everything is coordinated, how does this from an organizational stand point even work at this point?
[21:40:10] I mean, the FBI office, are there people in the -- isn't base on the scene? Isn't based at the L.A. -- I mean, how does this work?
SWECKER: Well, that's a good question. There is software the FBI has and other large police departments have that will get them started with databases and setting up some case management so that they can enter all the information that's developed during the course of this investigation into one place and that's critical.
COOPER: So everyone can share in the information.
SWECKER: Right. I mean, so everybody -- well, everybody can access that information, everybody can analyze it. They'll be bringing in dozens of analysts, not one but dozens. And they'll be sifting through this. And there has to be a lot of discipline around getting the information in one place because as you mentioned, a lot of departments involved, witnesses involved. A lot of the witnesses are police officers at this point. So all of that has go to one place.
COOPER: Lenny DePaul and actually Harry Houck I think it was, you know, I were talking about this earlier, critical the interview with the law enforcement officer who actually was wounded in the initial engagement with these suspects because we believe that person would have gotten eyes on was there a third person in the vehicle when time the incident began, did that third person leave? That officer may have critical information.
HARRY HOUCK, RETIRED NYPD DETECTIVE: Sure, exactly. And, you know, he wasn't in really bad condition, I'm sure. He had that information but the whole thing, like we said, is there a third shooter here? And that's what has me baffled. You know, when I came out on the last presser, they really didn't talk about a third shooter that much. They talked about another gentleman that they...
COOPER: Right, in fact the chief didn't even mention a third person... HOUCK: Right.
COOPER: ... until reporters said wait a minute, what about a third shooter?
HOUCK: Exactly. And the FBI said something about it. If the fact is, who is the third gentleman that they have in custody? And the fact is that, you know, when you have an incident when -- let's go back to the party, right. Let's go back to the party where...
COOPER: The party at Inland Regional Center.
HOUCK: Right. Right. Let's go back to the party where there's allegedly an altercation with one and who leaves, right and comes back with two people when the shooting starts.
Now, if that is true, that's always true, then we have three shooters.
COOPER: All right.
HOUCK: All right? Now, the fact that this guy actually came back or went there in the first place you look at this attack? This attack is perfectly planned from the beginning till the escape, perfectly planned. Why would that person go into that party, get into an altercation, all right? With the possibility of him being arrested in an altercation and then the whole plan being blown up?
COOPER: All right, the other question of course, if the person was wearing tactical gear, did the person at the party show up in tactical gear?
HOUCK: Right.
COOPER: And then get kicked out and come back or leave, change into tactical gear and go in.
COOPER: Yeah, so that doesn't make sense to me. There's -- and in my experience if something doesn't make sense, there is a problem.
COOPER: Lenny DePaul, as you look at this, does that make sense to you that there would have been some sort of initial altercation if somebody planned out has a plan with multiple people at least another person to go and commit mass killings, why wouldn't they have gone in and started doing that?
DEPAUL: Well, Anderson, I don't think these are disgruntled employees that decided to show up and shoot the place up, it makes no sense. If there is a third person involved and law enforcement is quiet, maybe he's cooperating, we don't know. I forget who mentioned but the command post is very hectic right now.
I'm sure that, you know, it's a collective effort from the agencies and everybody is doing their thing but they're leaving no stones unturned. And I'm sure as Intel is gathered and as people call into the police departments, I'm sure they're checking social media and gathering all that stuff and again, they may have these two identified so there's a lot going on right now. It's a hectic, hectic scene.
COOPER: Yeah, the -- Jonathan Gilliam, just in terms of the investigation as it is and I mean, former FBI Special Agent, how complex is it? We're talking to Chris about this just a moment ago. I just --I can't imagine working with all these different law enforcement agencies, multiple locations and the clock is ticking.
GILLIAM: The good thing is, Anderson whether the FBI or local law enforcement or any other agencies, we do mass arrest quite often. And so as you will see there L.A. as they deploy this command post, they have a system in which they bring the intelligence comes in. They catalog that info into leads and leads that have been covered so they don't repeat those leads.
One thing, though, that I think is the biggest breakdown in all this is that if this continues to extend into tomorrow and the next day.
[21:45:00] We have not developed a system to do sustained operations and we very quickly will start depleting our resources because guys will start to be getting tired. The officers will need to be broken up so they can get rest and food. And that is something that I think after this is over with and hopefully this gets resolved pretty quickly, we're going to start have to taking a look at because again this situation is not normal.
This is almost an evolution in the way that we've seen these shooter involved incidents and we had to start taking these things into consideration a lot of experts have been screaming this for along time. And I think this is a good time to start.
COOPER: The other piece of information we learned in the press conference earlier which is I think it's important, is that a tip led them to the residence in Redlands where now they have surrounded and are waiting or trying to figure out, I guess how to get into the apartment if they haven't already gone to the apartment. And we don't know what that tip was.
Was that a tip from somebody who was inside the Inland Regional Center who knew where the person was in which case that may point of connect to the group who was having a party or was that a tip and somebody perhaps from this apartment complex who saw the vehicle or who saw some, you know, the two shooters going in, in tactical gear after having committed this atrocious mass killing at the Inland Regional Center.
On the phone right now is Former Law Enforcement Officer, Dominick Ancona he was talking in the phone with his son who was at Inland Regional Center as the shooting unfolded. First of all how is your son doing right now and you could just walk us through what you heard and learned from him?
DOMINICK ANCONA, FORMER LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER: Well, first Anderson, let me say that our prayers go out to these victims and their families. It's a terrible thing that went down today. My son works there. And he text me in the morning and I get a text, and active shooter, I got co-workers shot around me. And I made it in my office with several other co-workers.
And right away I fired back, you know, not being able to be there was bad enough but told him barricade that door, get what you can up against the door and that's what they did. And then some time went by and the door was being kicked in and it was terrorizing it but it was the suspect, the gunman coming in but it was actually SWAT Team coming to get them out.
COOPER: Thank goodness.
ANCONA: Yeah, it was a bad time and you can see it's still going on.
COOPER: I mean, my heart just stops as you as a dad to suddenly get this text from your son saying active shooter, someone that works in law enforcement, you know, the reality of what that can mean. Do you know how long your son was in that office with his co-workers and could he hear what was going on? Because I understand the actual most of the killings if not all of them occurred in the conference area that may have been in a separate building or in a separate area centralized area?
ANCONA: I'm not quite sure because I wasn't able to speak with him too much. His phone was in and out. He did say he saw co-workers shot around him and so that I can't tell you about that. He did make it into his office and then with -- out at there as soon as they rescued them out. And then they would detain for being interviewed and just got released a little bit ago.
COOPER: Well, please give him our best. And I'm glad he's doing OK as well as the people, he with him in the office. Dominick Ancona, thank you so much.
Again back with our panel, Chris Swecker, Lenny DePaul, Art Roderick, Harry Houck, Bob Baer, Jonathan Gilliam, Dan Bongino all combine have many, many years of law enforcement experience with the FBI, the Marshall Service, the Secret Service, the CIA and others.
Bob Barr, you and I talked about this before. Again, to you as you put the pieces of this together and again there, and again it's still early hours and this has been going on for many hours. I always thing it's important to put out there a lot we don't know and it's very easy to kind of jump to conclusions but the fact that the FBI has devoted so many resources to this as Chris Swecker pointed out this early in the investigation, the fact that the FBI says it's a distinct possibility that terrorism was what this was about. And that they are looking at that carefully and have adjusted their investigation in that. The fact there was male and female shooter, to you is that significant, the male and female involved in this?
BAER: Well, I mean, I need to put it this way but when it's psychopathic killers, it's usually white males. The fact there is a female involved in this, you know, I exclude the possibility of a Bonnie and Clyde situation where, you know, it's no sense to it at all.
[21:50:00] So, yes it does bother me. There is some sort of motivation here. And it would also bother me in a similarity with the Paris attack, the targets were completely innocent. And as far as I can see these people were in this health center.
So it's this idea of applying apparent random violence, you know, to demoralize us which was a trend I keep on seeing more and more. Now, whoever these people related to or what they did or why they did it. I can't tell you well maybe we'll know tomorrow. But I think this whole idea and also on taking on the police with automatic weapons, for me it is something new.
It's something I've seen it in the Middle East for a long time but it's coming to the United States, whether it's Colorado Springs or here. This is a very, very bad trend. And also I'd like to add again that the FBI in Southern California was on the watch for a terrorist attack there. But again I cannot connect that with what happened in the tragedy today.
COOPER: Yeah, and Jonathan, I mean, do you think it's important to point out, you know, would to talk about terror, there are a lot of different forms of terror, whether it's linked to an international group or there's link to a religious ideology or there's link to political ideology whether it's linked to, you know, someone with the white supremacist beliefs or some sort of a grudge here.
But it is interesting, Jonathan, well I remember there was a huge shootout and I'm talking on the top of my so I don't remember the year, in Los Angeles. I think it was a bank robbery where you had heavily armed people in some homemade tactical gear going to rob a bank. Obviously that motivation is clear. But in terms of multiple people heavily armed, it has happened before.
GILLIAM: Sure, that has happened before. There has been bank robbers that used, you know, flak jackets or body armor. And that attack that you are talking about. There are where they went in. The bank robbers went in. I can't remember what year that was.
COOPER: I suppose it was a live on television. It was happening in. It was the first times that the LAPD was confronted with very, you know, with heavy weaponry and a lot of the initial officers didn't have the right kind of long guns to respond it to.
GILLIAM: Right. And that was a turning point for law enforcement because they realized that individuals with -- at that point in time, their AK-47s and they have body armor that a pistol was no match for that. That was a turning point for LAPD.
Columbine was a turning point for all of law enforcement when it comes to active shooter scenarios because we used to show up law enforcement would show up. They would organize and try to determine where the shooter was, then enter the building or just wait for a SWAT team.
COOPER: Right, I mean at Columbine you had more than a 1,000 law enforcement officers if my memory serves me correct outside the school setting up a perimeter, setting up, you know, command and control and waiting for tactical teams to show up for hours while inside these two psychopaths, you know, were killing people and one teacher was bleeding to death.
GILLIAM: Right. And so I think what you're going to start to see now is a shift in the way the law enforcement responds to these incidents. I was watching the video as this stuff unfolded and we're still in the mind set where we throw all our resources in the location where this is actually happening and not only are we putting our resources in danger, but their ability to go to multiple locations slows down.
And so, I think what we're going to have to start seeing is a shift in the way that we go in. We have tactical units or the Regular officer that's on the street. Gets better gear, helmets, heavier vests and long guns in their car and just some training to where they understand the tactics of shooting and moving and communicating together.
COOPER: Well, as of something -- I know, I'm sorry you stood a long piece on this for 60 minutes and actually did some training with the NYPD on how to kind to go through there, how they are retraining NYPD, all 35,000 officers to respond to active shooters. Because to your point. It's the first officers on the scene now who are expected to go in not wait for the tactical team as was done in Columbine. That was that the big last in Columbine because they know most of these active shooter situations, most of the killings take place. I believe it's in the first five minutes according to the FBI report, Jonathan.
GILLIAM: Right. And blocking forces are another thing that the military uses that law enforcement is not really used to using where we have tactical unit, they shows up or just responders that show up to that initial area and then the other forces actually surround the area and work as a blocking force before we send individuals in there.
I mean you actually kind of saw this developing in Colorado Springs last week with the way that they've set their command post up three miles away and were sending officers into the situation. And I think that's something that we need to really start looking at and we may start to see a shift in the way law enforcement does these things and planning for sustained operations and more Militaristic type of attacks.
COOPER: It's also interesting, Jonathan. I just want to point to our viewers who may have think were giving out too much information on law enforcement tactics.
[21:55:00] I mean the NYPD has been very transparent and very public about the retraining of officers and very public about their use of Hercules teams and tactical teams. They want people to know that they are out there. They've had a very visible presence moving around the streets in the city. And I think many cities now are doing that as well. I know Washington has been very public about it as well.
Scott Glover is back with us, he's at the scene in Redlands where there's a heavy law enforcement presence. As you can see. Scott, just bring us up to date on what has been happening since you first heard the FBI getting on the loud speaker talking to anybody who may and we don't know if they are may be in that apartment.
GLOVER: Yes, Anderson. They sent a -- what appeared to be a robot to go and search for explosives in toward the front door of the residence which appears to be a Townhouse off to my side here. There was a loud bang of some sort. And it is really unclear what has happened since then.
The law enforcement has been out here for several hours at this point. There are dozens of officers, SWAT gear, camo, et cetera. They've been focused on this address for quite a while. They are serving a search warrant and the address is linked to the events earlier today, the shooting of one of the suspects.
COOPER: And do we know -- and I'm pretty sure we don't know. But I think it is worth asking and pointing out and even if we don't know exactly how is it linked? Do we know, is this a home they owned, is it a place they rented? At this point is it clear?
GLOVER: I do not have those details at this time. You know, when they were setting up out here it was kind of a fluid situation. I was able to confirm through a Redlands Police Department Official. That they were serving a warrant. They were assisting the San Bernardino Police Department. I know the FBI is out here. But the details of that nature I'm not aware of at this point.
COOPER: Right. The other interesting thing, Scott, would be did the tip that led law enforcement to this apartment which we know there was a tip because that's what the chief of police in San Bernardino said at this press conference. Was that tip from someone in the area who saw these killers returning after the shootings at the inland regional center or was it is tip from someone at the inland regional center may have recognized or new the identity of one of them of or seen a license plate of the vehicle as it left. All of that at this point is unclear but as far as you can tell from there, this is still a very unresolved situation.
GLOVER: Absolutely. You know, there's tremendous police presence and interest here. In my talking to various law enforcement sources, you know, those questions that you pose are still unanswered and I think it will be a long night for Investigators.
COOPER: Yeah, no doubt.
GLOVER: And I look forward to answers in the morning.
COOPER: Yeah. We wish them the best on scene Scott. Thank you. I want to bring in an official with more information which happening in Redlands. Joining is ATF spokeswoman Meredith Davis. Meredith, thanks so much for being with us. What can you tell us the latest on the investigation that you know?
MEREDITH DAVIS, ATF SPOKESWOMAN: Right now we still got three active scenes, one of them being the original scene at the IRC. There was an original emergency sweep for victims and perpetrators of the crime and as they made a more thorough detailed secondary sweep there was an explosive device located in the building. The ATF, FBI and county bomb techs are there performing what we call a render safe on that device. So again that's the IRC. We also have... COOPER: I'm sorry just -- do you know what kind of a device that was? Was it in a backpack? Was it a pipe bomb, can you give any detail on that?
DAVIS: I don't have any detail on...
COOPER: OK.
DAVIS: ... the construction of the device. I will after the bomb techs are done. Obviously they have their priorities and that will be render safe and I will get the information on the device.
COOPER: Absolutely. Sorry. So continuing on the other two locations what you can tell us.
DAVIS: So we have an active scene in the Redlands which is the house that was found to be tied to the investigation and there are, again, ATF, FBIs, and local officers there. They're running a explosive robot through the home just to make sure that -- because of the other explosive devices that aren't any located in the home.
They have asked neighbors to evacuate immediately adjacent neighbors to evacuate and the neighborhood to shelter in place until they can confirm there are no explosive devices in the home.
COOPER: And I know the third location is the scene where the SUV was shot up. There was the exchange of gunfire with the officers and obviously we heard from the chief of police earlier that they are being cautious in how they deal with the SUV because of what the chief described as sensitive material.
[22:00:00] Meredith, I want to thank you. We're at the top of the hour. Our coverage continues through out the night starting right now with Don Lemon. Don.
