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Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees
Live Coverage of the Aftermath of Mass Shooting in San Bernardino, California; California Governor Expected to Speak; New Perspective on Police Response to San Bernardino Shooting. Aired 20:30-21:00
Aired December 03, 2015 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[20:00:04] ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: Good evening tonight from San Bernardino, California.
In just about an hour, a vigil gets underway at the baseball stadium behind me for the 14 men and women murdered at a holiday party by a co-worker and his wife just yesterday. We are just now learning their names and some of the victim's stories and will bring those to you tonight.
In this stadium they are going to be honored so were those who were injured wounded in the attack. There will be no doubt tears in the stadium and we hope at least a small measure of comfort for a community badly in need of it. Many people are lined up waiting to get into the stadium. There is no comfort nor rest for anyone in law enforcement or in homeland security tonight.
The investigation is moving fast. They are now scrambling to figure out exactly what turned this couple with a six-month-old baby into bomb makers and mass murders. A dozen pipe bombs found at their homes. These are new photos obtained by CBS News of a bag of them crude devices no doubt, unreliable thank goodness and not nearly as deadly as they could be.
A picture as well of the bomb rigged to a toy car that the killers tried but failed to detonate in the inland regional center where they took those 14 lives. They are pieces of an ugly mosaic that officials say could include wider ties to organized international terrorism.
Now, we may learn much more in just a few moment when authorities brief reporters, already, though, we have learned plenty.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER (voice-over): You are watching the last images of the killers in their SUV before they are shot to death in a hail of gunfire.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My God.
COOPER: Recorded by a resident just down the street from where Syed Farook and his wife, Tashfeen Malik made their last stand with law enforcement.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They opened fire first. Rounds came from the back of the car from the female that was in the backfiring through the back of the SUV at the police vehicles and then the male suspect who was the driver got out and fired at officers from the street, as well.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Shots fired.
COOPER: The shootout in real-time heard over the police radio.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: One guy down. One guy in the back of the car.
COOPER: We now know Farook and his wife fired close to 80 rounds. Twenty three officers returned fire killing the couple on the scene. And today, we learned they had an arsenal in that SUV.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They had over 1400 223 caliber rounds that were available to them and they had over 200 .9 rounds on their persons as well. They had the two 334 assault-style weapons, rifles, and they had .9 pistols with them.
COOPER: And authorities would find an even bigger arsenal here at the couple's home, thousands of rifle rounds, pistol rounds, 12 pipe bombs and tools used to make IEDs.
Jason Simmons say his mother is one of Farook's neighbors. How did they seem to you?
JASON SIMMONS, NEIGHBOR: They just seemed like a normal family.
COOPER: Law enforcement sources tell CNN says it appears Farook a U.S. citizen was radicalized and that he was in touch with more than one terrorism suspect where the FBI were already investigating.
It's unclear if the suspects were overseas or lived in the United States. As of now, law enforcement is still unwilling to state a definitive motive for this mass killing. We do know that a holiday party was underway at the inland regional center yesterday when Farook left under duress according to law enforcement. When he returned, he and his wife dressed in tactical gear sprayed the room with bullets and left behind a homemade bomb.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The suspects when they entered fired between 65 and 75 rounds from their rifles at the scene. We did locate the one pipe bomb that was actually three pipe bombs combined into one that had a remote control car type remote control device that appears to have not worked in the case.
COOPER: They fled the scene in the black SUV and authorities say a witness to the massacre identified Farook which led them to his home. While police were there, the SUV passed by the house and then sped off. It led to this, the end of the chase and the beginning of the larger investigation.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: As for the why, as for the motivation and ties to any larger terror organization or ties to radical Islamist ideology, no answers yet. But plenty of early indications. CNN justice correspondent Pamela Brown has more on that. She joins me
tonight.
So let's talk motive behind the shooting. What have you learned? What are your sources telling you?
PAMELA BROWN, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: It's interesting, Anderson. Officials I have been speaking with working on this investigation says this is a case that does not fit neatly into a box. And in many ways they are perplexed because it doesn't fit a certain MO. They are looking at whether this was an act of terrorism or whether this was workplace dispute or perhaps a blend of both.
What really has thrown off officials is that the fact that the suspect and his wife had an apparent bomb lab in their home where they were making these explosives and also had this tactical gear and apparently wanted to launch an even bigger attack.
These are two people that were not on the FBI's radar. They did not have investigations open on them. So they basically flew into the radar of authorities despite the fact we learned today from sources that Syed Farook had been in touch over the years with multiple terrorism subjects that the FBI had been investigating.
I'm told that those were not high priority subjects, that they were loose connections, but the FBI wants to figure out if something was missed and what those communications exactly said. They are also looking at his communications and associations overseas. But right now I'm hearing, Anderson, from sources there is no clear cut motive just yet.
[20:05:53] COOPER: I mean, it seems odd, though, the idea that it's just a workplace shooting. It's rare for a workplace shooting to have more than one shooter and for it to be so pre-planned as this was. Wasn't there a report also earlier today that CNN had gotten about radicalization or potential radicalization of at least one of these killers?
BROWN: I will tell you in my colleague Evan Perez is speaking to his sources who say, you know, working theory here is that there could have been radicalization. I think there are a few factors that are leading them in that direction. But the fact they had this cache of weapons and explosives, the fact one of them had been in touch with terrorism subjects. They are looking into the travel that Syed Farook had to Saudi Arabia to see if anything happened there.
But really, I'm hearing at this point from interviews with the family, from information retrieved from electronics, there is nothing at the early stage to substantiate that, Anderson. But again, still very early. Remember the FBI is sort of starting from scratch because they didn't have a lot of information on these two people. And you are right. It is very rare that two people would go in and launch an active shooting situation like this. Normally we see one person acting alone who is disgruntled. This is strange. Every official I have spoken to says this is not your average case. COOPER: U.S. officials and, I mean, you mentioned they traveled to
Saudi Arabia. This guy Farook traveled there apparently twice according to U.S. officials. Is it his wife's family was living there? She was of Pakistan descent, I believe, but did they live in Saudi Arabia?
BROWN: That's right. But they are trying to figure that out right now. And I can tell you that U.S. government has been in touch with Saudi Arabia officials trying to get information on all of this. But the indications that they have now is that Syed Farook had traveled to Saudi Arabia in the summer of 2014 for (INAUDIBLE). He was there for nine days. And they believe during that time he met his Pakistan born wife. She then came here to the U.S. on a fiancee visa, later was able to get a green card. And in order to do that, Anderson, she would have had to go through some security screenings by DHS to get that green card and become a legal permanent resident -- Anderson.
COOPER: All right, Pamela, appreciate the update.
I want to bring more expertise to bare on this because there is a lot of moving pieces of this. And frankly, I mean, let's just be frank, there is a lot we don't know and a lot of law enforcement doesn't know.
I'm joined by former CIA officer Bob Baer. He is our intelligence and security analyst. Also CNN terrorism analyst Paul Cruickshank. And here with me in San Bernardino CNN law enforcement analyst Art Roderick, former assistant director of the U.S. Marshals service.
Art, when we spoke last night while we were covering all this breaking story, you were saying that today we are going to be hearing more about terrorism and we have. What do you make of what the piece of the puzzle that have come to light so far?
ART RODERICK, FORMER ASSISTANT DIRECTOR, U.S. MARSHALS SERVICE: We heard some. And what is perplexing here we haven't heard a lot. You would think at this point when you look at some of the past terrorism attacks, at this point in time we would know exactly what is going on. Were they radicalized? Were they coordinated?
COOPER: They would have more of a trail.
RODERICK: They would have more of the trail. We done have any trail here at all. This is very strange. This whole case has been strange from the beginning. And we're even still to this point talking about possible workplace violence, which to me doesn't seem even possible.
COOPER: I mean, that is one of the things that particularly strange about this case. It's strange as a pure terrorism case. And also, it seems very strange as a workplace violence case. I don't know of really many workplace violence incidents or even school shootings except for columbine where you had two shooters.
RODERICK: Not only that. For pipe bombs, stress and tactical gear, high-powered weapons, a plan to actually do the attack and get away, I mean, this has all the classic signs of terrorist events that we have seen all around the world.
COOPER: And to get away with more weaponry that you could if they wanted to and maybe did want to commit other acts of violence.
RODERICK: Yes, I talked to a lot of law enforcement friends of mine. And we are all of that same consensus that they were actually either going to go to another location or possibly come back --.
COOPER: To the same location.
RODERICK: To the same location because as you recall at that point in time, the command post was being set up and they were also setting up the triage. Can you imagine the chaos if they came back and started shooting and throwing pipe bombs at that location?
[20:10:08] COOPER: Bob Baer, in terms of what you have been following today in this investigation, what do you make of what you have heard?
BOB BAER, CNN INTELLIGENCE AND SECURITY ANALYST: I think this was an act of terrorism. And I just don't buy the workplace violence. It doesn't fit bringing your wife, six month old baby. He hadn't been fired and I could go right down the list and this isn't the nature of Muslims or Pakistanis to shoot up a workplace. It just isn't. I hate to classify that. But they don't do that.
And you look at the context of radicals, you know, her background, the whole meeting in Saudi Arabia and also the tactics. Let's never forget that. They hit that place fast, faster than the police could get there. They had these pipe bombs for disengaging, you know, they didn't know how to make bombs, pipe bombs are the worst you can imagine to use these --
(CROSSTALK)
COOPER: Bob, let me ask you about those bombs. Because I know you have experience with this in your past life. Those new pictures of bombs obtained by CBS News, what do you make of what you've seen? I mean, are they, you know, combined with the tactical gear? What do they tell you?
BAER: Well, I think they were OK on the tactical gear and the weapons, they were define, AR-15s are fine, but that contraption they had probably wasn't going to go off. I doubt they had any practice. If you are going to do a command detonated bomb, you would want people with experience field experience on a range. And even then, it has to be encoded. It is very dangerous, very complicated arming switches.
So I don't think they had much of a chance. And that's what tells me that this is probably and they may have been radicalized but all the logistics were done here in country and they had this experiment around. And were just lucky they didn't blow themselves up with the pipe bombs.
COOPER: Because when you look at the explosives, you don't see and because many of them didn't go off, they were inert. You don't see a level of experience with explosives which, you know, we certainly saw in Paris?
BAER: Well, day one the CIA when I was an explosive range don't use pipe bombs. They go off. They are hard to detonate. The timers and the rest of it, it is just it is what armatures use. The ones in Paris on the other hand, they were using refrigerators. They were using specialized detonators. Those people, the six bombs, I believe that went off were clearly experienced. They knew what they were doing. They didn't detonate prematurely and they all went off except one, as I understand. And that tells me those people had true battle field experience or at least the bomb maker did.
COOPER: Paul, there were three explosive devices rigged to this remote control car that was found at the scene of the initial shooting and the remote to that device was found in that SUV. Is that kind of device a hallmark of terror organization? Have you seen that before, Paul?
PAUL CRUICKSHANK, CNN TERRORISM ANALYST: I don't think a hallmark of any one particular terror or organization. And we have seen remote control cars being used before in plots. And in fact, the Boston bombings they use a modified remote control car detonator to trigger those two bombs, which caused all that carnage in Boston.
We've also seen remote control cars themselves involved in a plot in the U.K. in 2012 where some British radicals were going to drive these remote control cars under the gates of an army base to attack the U.K. army in Britain.
We've seen in Syria rebel groups use actual remote control cars, not toy cars, real cars, real vehicles that they powered by remote control into positions they want to target. And they there are also reports ISIS has been using remote control cars in Syria and Iraq to launch attacks, as well. So a variety of different terrorist groups used them. I don't think that gets us closer to who these people may or may not been linked to.
COOPER: Yes. There is another piece of the puzzle stories are looking at.
We are going to continue the conversation, Bob, and Paul, and Art throughout our coverage tonight.
There are so many parts of this to get to. I want to remind you, we are waiting to hear more from authorities tonight. We are expecting a press conference at any moment last night when we had the press conference in this hour 24 hour ago. We got a lot of new information from the investigation. So we are hoping we receive also a lot of information. So stay tuned for that.
Coming up next, victim's widow and possibly some key evidence concerning local motivations, hostility between Syed Farook and a co- worker. Details on that ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:18:32] COOPER: A lot of developments on the shooting yesterday here in San Bernardino. And we could be just a few minutes away from learning a lot more. We are expecting a press conference from authorities. They expect to brief reporters momentarily. Of course, we are going to break in the moment that happen. We will bring it to you live when they do.
Now, these press conferences as I said, they have already told us a lot over the last 24 hours or so. Tonight we are hoping to get more insights into exactly what the motivation of these killers were because authorities have not said one way or the other, whether this was linked to radical Islam or whether this was something else.
Gary Tuchman has just spoken to the widow of the victim work worked with one of the killers, Syed Farook, and what she told him could be significant. Gary joins us now with that.
What have you learned?
GARY TUCHMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Anderson, Jennifer Thalasinos says she was in love with a man that loved God, who was born again, who was very blunt and open about his criticism of the Muslim faith. She says when he was at work, he evangelized to everybody about his believes and he worked with the killer, Farook. She believes that Farook did not like that very much.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JENNIFER THALASINOS, WIDOW: Wanted everybody else to have that same feeling and he just wanted to evangelize to everybody. And that's what he did.
TUCHMAN: Did he evangelized with this guy, Farook?
THALASINOS: I'm sure he would have talked to him and probably evangelized with him. I'm sure they would had discussions about religion because my husband would discuss religion with anybody that would listen. And the fact they were coming from two different backgrounds. But as far as I know, there had been no arguments or bad feelings or anything like that prior to what happened yesterday.
[20:20:10] TUCHMAN: You've been open to what your husband has said about Muslims in the past.
THALASINOS: Yes.
TUCHMAN: What has he said?
THALASINOS: He is very upset about what ISIS has been doing and the radicalized Muslims, Al-Qaeda, the whole situation and his upset about the fact that the majority of the Muslims, you know, it's like they won't come out and do something about it. It's like --
TUCHMAN: So do you think he talked to Farook about that?
THALASINOS: He might have.
TUCHMAN: And do you have any knowledge at all from anyone you talked to if at what happened at the function yesterday with Farook?
THALASINOS: No, I just - I know that supposedly there was an argument and various could have been an argument with my husband, I wouldn't be surprised.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: So just for accuracy, though, she has no direct evidence that they had a confrontation or anything.
TUCHMAN: She has no direct evidence that they had a confrontation. She has no direct evidence they even had a conversation about religion. But she says he made a point, her husband, to talk with everyone working with the health department his beliefs, about being born again.
COOPER: How long were they married?
TUCHMAN: They were together for nine years, together 14 years. He used to be with the health department in Cape County, New Jersey. He moved to California after they met on the internet. They were on a chat group, beauty and the beast chat group from that show from the '80s. They both loved that TV show. And she said they wanted to have a love like love on beauty and the beast and he moved to California and the rest is history.
COOPER: Gary, thank you very much. Appreciate it.
Again, a press conference coming shortly this evening. We are going to bring that to you when it get underway. Our panel of experts will be listening as well and be available to lend their insight.
Speaking of which, I want to continue the conversation right now with Bob Baer, with Paul Cruickshank. Also joining me here is Art Roderick and we're monitoring that press conference and we are going to bring it to you live. So we may have to jump in with any of our guests.
The FBI, Art, has certainly been combing through the computers at the resident. They have been coming through the mother's house. But you are saying that by now there should be more information in the pipeline.
RODERICK: Yes, kind of leads me to believe that they possibly, I mean, there have been some unconfirmed reports they might have tried to destroy some hard drives and some of the paperwork that they had. So it is just as unusual, either the FBI already knows and they are not telling us or they just don't have a lot of information.
COOPER: Do you have a sense how long it takes to retrieve - I mean, if information has been wiped off to kind of go back on servers and try to retrieve that?
RODERICK: That could take a period of time. I mean, that would have to be sent to the cyber lab in Quantico to have that done. So that's going to take a little time to be able to retrieve all that information, if they tried to wipe it from the hard drive. COOPER: And obviously, text messages, any kind of communication like
that is something they look at.
Bob, CNN has been told by sources that Farook was communicating with terrorism suspects from the FBI was already investigating but Farook himself was not known to the FBI. How far does the monitoring of potential suspects or subjects and the people they communicate with go? I mean, is that sort of a blind spot for intelligence officials?
BAER: Well, it's a blind spot in the sense that they are monitoring tens and thousands of people in the United States and some of them they have surveillance on, some they have warrants on, listen to the phones but they have to express, you know, they are moving toward an act. Moving toward violence before they can really get on their cases and, you know, knock on their doors and search the houses.
But if somebody simply sympathizes with the Sunnis in Iraq or Syria, and they talk about jihads, is a very big subject. It could mean working hard. It could mean any number of things. It means, struggle in Arabic, you know.
And so, unless the FBI has actually seen it, you know, one of these people, you know, moving toward an action, as I said, they can't do anything. So I don't think this is an intelligence failure, at least what we have seen so far, because they got everybody possibly covered.
Now, if he had had encrypted communications and the rest of it we are talking about something else but even at that point, the FBI wouldn't necessarily suspect him. And this has been the fear of the FBI right from the beginning. Its people would move to violence that were completely off the radar. FBI agents, law enforcement officers have told me over and over again it's what they can't see that scares them and this nightmare has come true.
COOPER: And Paul, I mean, what is so scary is someone doesn't need to have even been overseas, someone doesn't need to be in direct contact with, you know, radical Islamist to become radicalized. They can get information on the internet and make decisions and there is plenty of information out there about making devices, how to go about this kind of stuff.
CRUICKSHANK: Anderson, that's absolutely right. And we have seen both Al-Qaeda, it's various affiliates and ISIS encourage Americans and westerners and Europeans to stay home and to launch attacks in the name of the terrorist group but they don't have to link up with the terrorist group and get that training.
Al-Qaeda and Yemen have been putting out a magazine which we have been talking about today called "Inspire Magazine" and put out more than a dozen issues at this point. And every time there is a new how to guide how to do this or that terrorist attack. And in the very first "Inspire Magazine" that went out in June of 2010, there were instructions how to make pressure cooker devices and pipe bombs by which were downloaded by the Boston bombers in 2013 and a whole host of other terrorists getting involved in plots, lone wolf plots in the west. So it may well be and the FBI are investigating this right now that
this couple downloaded a recipe from this very same "Inspire Magazine." That doesn't mean they are necessarily sympathetic towards Al-Qaeda. But may have found the recipe there. It clearly worked in the Boston attacks, Anderson.
COOPER: I mean, Bob, I remember when I was a kid, there was some, you know, there were books that you could get, I think the (INAUDIBLE) cookbook was the most famous that gave pointers on how to do this stuff. It's just grown exponentially from then.
BAER: Exactly. And I think we look at the Oklahoma City bombing. McVeigh went out and tested these bombs. They went in a field with them, you know. And they are getting better. This is what concerns me. Clearly the people in Paris were very good. They were able to attack a couple targets simultaneously. They had combat training. And I think they are getting very much better on making bombs.
I mean, frankly, I could teach you in a day how to make a TATP bomb with a detonator but you have to practice the whole day. And these people, I don't think, did have that sort of practice. But that what's makes them so dangerous because they are not out blowing things up and they are not going to Syria so there is no record for the FBI to go on to do a proper investigation, yes.
COOPER: Yes. We are waiting for this press conference. I want to get a quick break because I think it is going to start very shortly. So we are going to take a quick break. We will have that for you.
Also tonight, new details about how hundreds of police officers including SWAT team sprang into action after the first 911 calls came in. Why their actions in the hours that followed likely saved a lot more lives.
We will be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: Well, welcome back. We're in San Bernardino tonight waiting for another update on the investigation into yesterday's deadly mass shooting. California Governor Jerry Brown expected to speak along with state, local and federal officials. We'll obviously bring you that press conference as soon as it happens. Authorities have been releasing new and critical details all day long. We're at a location, the stadium where people are gathering in San Bernardino to honor those who lost their lives. Tonight we have new perspective on the police response that was still playing out on live television 24 hours ago. First came the horrific mass shooting, which alone would have been a challenge. Then came the intensive manhunt followed by a shootout and a foot chase after what police believe might be a third suspect. And finally, a carefully executed search of a possibly booby trapped townhome. Here is Alina Machado with how it all unfolded minute by minute.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DISPATCHER: Shots heard in the area. 1365 South Waterman ...
ALINA MACHADO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It's 10:59 a.m. in San Bernardino. The first dispatched calls go out and within seconds, information starts trickling in.
DISPATCHER: Subject is still inside the business 1365 South Waterman. It's in building number three. Possible active shooter.
MACHADO: Several units start heading to the Inland Regional Center.
OFFICER: Where on the building is the closest to, south or north end?
DISPATCHER: So far I'm getting on the ground floor, an unknown male all black clothing with a black mask. We do have victims down.
MACHADO: About four minutes after the initial call, the first officer arrives quickly assessing the situation.
OFFICER: Now we have two suspects, both [ inaudible ] on in the inside of the business, on the south side is what we're being told.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Lincoln 3, do you have anybody with you?
OFFICER: Negative, I need two more units with me for an entry team.
MACHADO: Less than two minutes after police arrive, the shooters escape.
OFFICER: We confirm being advised that one suspect fled in a black SUV, was found from the location. We do not know if we still have an active shooter. We supposedly have two down inside. We'll be making entry.
MACHADO: Turned out both killers had left the bloody scene. Once inside --
OFFICER: Several down in the conference room. Several down. Several medical aid.
MACHADO: Some 300 officers from several agencies would eventually respond. They helped the wounded and secured the area, evacuating survivors from the scene. Watch as this group is led to safety, hands up, even a child is among them. One of the officers tries to keep them calm.
OFFICER: Try to relax, everyone try to relax. I'll take a bullet before you do, that's for sure.
MACHADO: But the killers still on the run. Then before 1:00 p.m., less than two hours after the shooting, police have a lead on the identity of one of the killers.
OFFICER: I talked to a witness who said the guy sits next to him who is a county worker was acting a little weird, left early, which he also thought was weird and then about 30 minutes later the shooting happened. I have a name and general age, no date of birth. MACHADO: By 2:57 p.m., police seem to find what they are looking for.
OFFICER: We got the SUV with the Utah plates. We're trying to catch up.
MACHADO: They chased that black SUV for about 18 minutes.
OFFICER: We're at the Water district. He's driving at a high rate of speed.
MACHADO: Before gunfire erupts.
OFFICER: We're in pursuit of the suspect's vehicle eastbound from Richardson. We got shots fired out the back window.
MACHADO: This cell phone video shows the end of the chase, hundreds of rounds exchanged between 23 officers and the two shooters.
OFFICER: Right now we have one down outside the car, one down inside the car.
MACHADO: By 3:16 p.m., more than four hours after they took 14 lives, both killers are shot to death.
[20:35:01]
Police would later find more than 1600 rounds of ammunition in their car and at their home 12 pipe bombs. The quick action by police possibly stopping even more planned attacks. Alina Machado, CNN, Miami.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Still incredible to see how it all played out. Again, I'm joined by Art Roderick, CNN law enforcement analyst and former assistant director of the U.S. Marshal Service. He is joining me here. Jim Bueermann is also joining me, he is president of the police foundation, he is the former police chief in Redlands, California where the killers lived. Tom Fuentes, CNN law enforcement analyst and former FBI assistant director is also joining us.
Mr. Bueermann, thank you very much for being with us. In terms of the investigation, what are the key questions you want answered as soon as possible?
JIM BUEERMANN, PRESIDENT, POLICE FOUNDATION: Well, I think everybody wants to know why. I don't know that we're going to get to that.
COOPER: That may take time?
BUEERMANN: Yeah, and I don't know that we're ever going to get that because the people that know are dead, right? So, I don't know that. But I think that local law enforcement is going to continually ask themselves, are there others out there? Whether there are connections to other people? Is this a one-time event with these people or is this the beginning of something else that law enforcement across the country is going to have to deal with?
COOPER: It is incredible when you think about, I mean, the response by police, the quick response, most of the mass shootings, you know, FBI has analyzed more than 160 of them over the last 15 or so years, most of them are over in four to five minutes. Police arrived very quickly on the scene there. Killers had already left, obviously, but because of that shootout in, was it West Hollywood many years ago, police now are actually more heavily armed in an area like this than in a lot of cities in the United States, and that probably - that helped because they were able to respond and shootout the vehicle.
BUEERMANN: Well, and it meant that they were not outgunned. At the end of the termination of that pursuit, they were being fired on with assault rifles and because of the movement in this region of outfitting patrol officers with assault rifles, having them available to them, those officers were able to return equal strength of fire, if you will, and that's why you saw so many rounds fired at that car so quickly, it was because most of those officers were using assault rifles.
COOPER: It was interesting, just as whether it's mass shooters or terrorists learn from each other and study prior attacks to figure out how they want to evolve their attacks, police also learn from them and the FBI has been studying this and disseminates that information, and so law enforcement has learned a lot about these kind of active shooting incidents, whatever the motivation was and how to respond to them.
ART RODERICK, FORMER ASSISTANT DIRECTOR OF THE U.S. MARSHAL SERVICE: Absolutely. And you can see over the years, how the training in active shooter or multiple casualty events is what they actually call, has changed over the years. And I think you're going to see another change here based on this particular shooting.
COOPER: Really, this is going to be a learning incident.
RODERICK: Definitely it will be a learning incident because I think what you've got here is this is brand-new. We haven't seen something like this before. Whether it's a hybrid or whether it's ...
COOPER: Whether it's an act of radical Islamist terrorism, whether it's some sort of workplace related or some hybrid of the two?
RODERICK: Whatever it is, this is different. So, now we have to take this particular scenario and go back and look at all the training that we are doing and say OK, what can be different? Was there a possibility of multiple events occurring here? Would they have come back to where the initial event occurred and re-engage law enforcement and first responders? So that's -- this all has to be looked at.
COOPER: Tom Fuentes, do you believe that these two had planned to hit other targets? I mean, the fact that they had other weaponry with them, that so many rounds, these explosive devices, even though they were apparently poorly made, and many of them inert, do you believe they wanted to continue on creating terror? TOM FUENTES: Well, I think, Anderson, they may have, but they also might have had a different target in mind in the first place, and then went to this party and for whatever reason changed their mind and decided to attack maybe, you know, on the spur of the moment this location was the reason for the attack when maybe originally they were going to go to a sports stadium or somewhere that had a much larger number of people at it. That we may never know.
COOPER: How crucial, Tom, do you think it is to learn exactly the nature of the dispute that occurred at this party? I mean do you think, is that just kind of a side, you know, tangential part of this or do you think that's critical to understand why they hit this facility?
FUENTES: Well, I think it will be important to hear what the story was, what exactly occurred during that argument, but I think we're never going to know what went on in their minds or especially his mind as to what triggered at that moment. This is not something that came up spur of the moment. They were planning this. And often in these cases, the people have grievance after grievance in their mind, maybe for a lifetime that just keeps adding up one on top of the other one, on top of the other, until at some point. Then they decide to go ahead and take action, but it's not something that just came up that day and obviously, with 5,600 rounds of ammunition, that usually cost close to $1 per piece, the body armor, the assault rifles.
[20:40:04]
I mean this was a lot of money went into this operation, a lot of purchasing, a lot of practice. Whether the pipe bombs actually were going to ever work, you know, we don't know that right now, but they spent a lot of money and a lot of time getting ready for an attack, whether it was this one in particular or this just happened to come up that day, and they decided to go ahead and do it.
COOPER: Jim, how much have law enforcement in Redlands in San Bernardino trained for tactical situations like this, in particular, the potential for multiple attacks?
BUEERMANN: They are trained a lot, and the training around active shooters has changed completely since the Columbine High School tragedy. It's just ...
COOPER: From the idea of building a perimeter and waiting for tactical units, it's now first responders get to go in.
BUEERMANN: When you have an active shooter, I think you saw that with the amount of officers in this case that went in as fast as they could, not only to the actual scene of the shooting, but to that immediate area to try to find them, right? They do a lot of training around active shooters, I think as Art was saying that we're going to see a change in the training about multiple sites, right? And as opposed to the shooter staying at one place, they now go mobile, right? It's a hit and run. They hit someplace, they go someplace. COOPER: And I mean that is particularly taxing for law enforcement,
because not only do you have enough personnel to cover multiple sites, but to have the sort of the discipline not to commit all your resources to one site and then potentially miss out on something else.
BUEERMANN: Exponentially more complicated and more chaotic, because you now have multiple geographies, multiple radio systems when they go into another jurisdiction and it just gets much, much more complicated.
COOPER: Tom, I appreciate you being with us, Tom Fuentes as well, and we'll continue to check in with you as we await the press conference. We're just now getting some new and tantalizing evidence. We'll get the latest on that next. Also, why authorities are hoping the arsenal of ammunition and the bombs left behind can give them some clues as to what caused the shooting? We'll be right back.
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[20:45:55]
COOPER: A lot of new information actually coming in to us, literally as we speak. First of all, officials are about to start a press conference. We're going to bring that to you as soon as they actually start to speak and give information. Right now they are just going over sort of ground rules and names. Just a moment ago, Evan Perez got word of some new evidence. He joins us now. Evan, explain what you've learned.
EVAN PEREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Anderson, we're getting signs that - or at least investigators have signs that these two suspects were doing things to try to cover their trails, to try to make it harder for investigators to figure out what was going on, certainly in the days leading up to this rampage. They recovered two smashed cell phones believed to be fairly new, fairly recently bought and at one of the crime scenes and they found them smashed, and so what that leads to the suspicion at least among investigators that they were trying to cover up their electronic trail, at least the recent electronic trails, communications that they may have had with anybody in the last few days and the last few weeks before this, before this attack. They have also recovered a hard drive, one official tells Pamela Brown that they have recovered a hard drive and that hard drive showed signs of being tampered with.
Now, again, all of this puts together a picture of two suspects who were trying to make sure that investigators would have a hard time tracking back, figuring out exactly what they were up to and what may explain this attack that was carried out in San Bernardino. We do know that the pipe bombs that were recovered, the investigators now are trying to figure out whether or not those match anything that are in catalogs for bomb labs that will do the analysis of these bombs, these devices that were recovered at the home there, Anderson, in San Bernardino and the arsenal and the number of items that were found, bomb making material really leads to the suspicion among investigators that something big was being planned and perhaps, you know, and something other than the attack that took place yesterday at the Inland Regional Center and the question is what exactly that was? They hope to be able to find more clues about that in some of the electronics, the computers that they have been able to recover. They do believe they will be able to figure that out.
COOPER: Let's listen in to California Governor Jerry Brown.
JERRY BROWN (D) GOVERNOR OF CALIFORNIA: For San Bernardino for the families of the victims. We face a real threat, but we have a fabulous group of people, sheriffs, policemen, FBI, other personnel. We're all working together and we have to rise above all the jurisdictions that we're a part of and we're working as one group, one people. And my concern is to make sure that everything that can be done is being done and going forward that the state of California provides the resources and works very closely with both local officials and our federal counterparts to make sure that we can protect the people of California. When it comes to people who engage in these kind of vicious brutal acts, we'll spare nothing in bringing them to justice and protecting the people along the way.
So, I don't know what this means going forward, but I think we have to be on our guard. We can't take anything for granted. And I just want to assure my fellow citizens here in California that we're going to go just as far as we have to, to make sure that public safety is protected. Thank you.
MIKE RAMOS, DISTRICT ATTORNEY: First and foremost, I want to thank the governor for being here. Mike Ramos, district attorney. I'm a fortunate district attorney. We're working cooperatively with the U.S. Attorney's office, U.S. Attorney Eileen Decker and I can't tell you how proud I am of the teamwork of both our local agency, San Bernardino police department, the sheriff's department and our federal partners, the FBI and others.
[20:50:00]
And finally, as the district attorney, we are very saddened of the loss of the victims, family members, some family members of the attorneys in my office and we are going to be there for the victims. If you go to at S.B. County D.A. on the Twitter, you will have a direct line for victim services, any other family members that need support and help, we will be there for you. Thank you.
MADDEN: Good evening. First of all, I want to thank you for your patience. As we've said from day one, this is a marathon, not a Sprint. It's a tragedy that occurred. We will continue to do everything in our power bringing all the resources to bear, the federal government to work hand in hand with our state and local partners on this matter. We continue to exploit all the evidence possible and as I've said from day one, the evidence will lead us to the facts. We will go where the evidence takes us. Thank you again for your patience.
CHIEF JAROD BURGUAN, SAN BERNARDINO COUNTY POLICE: Good evening, everybody. Thank you very much for being patient. I know we were going to try to do this a little bit earlier, 4:30 is what we were shooting for. We just couldn't quite make that happen, but thanks for sticking with us. Were we able to get those pictures up? So, we have some pictures of the crime scene where the officer-involved shooting took place. We'll be able to provide digital copies of those images online for everybody that wants them, but they are pictures of the weapons, they are pictures of the suspect vehicle and a few others in there. We wanted to provide that. Additionally, I've got a few more statistics and numbers for folks just as an update from earlier information that we have put out.
As we said, this was a Department of Public Health event. As it turns out, it was an event that was training in the morning that was transitioning to a holiday Christmas party luncheon in the afternoon. And this happened right about the time of that transition. There were 91 invited guests that were there. We believe that there were about 75 to 80 people that were present in the room when this occurred or that ultimately came to that party. We don't have the exact number because they had a sign-in list and we're still working through some of those dynamics. We don't know that everybody signed in.
Of the 21 people that were injured, 18 of them have been identified as county employees. 18 of the 21 were county employees, the other three were not county employees. Of the 14 people that are deceased and their identities have been released now, 12 of those individuals were county employees, county of San Bernardino, two of them were not. And then finally, one of the questions that came from the media is that you wanted to hear from one of the first responders when we responded to this on Wednesday morning. So I'd like to introduce Lieutenant Mike Madden. Spelling is m-i-k-e last m-a-d-d-e-n. Mike is actually one of our administrative commanders for the police department. He is a 24-year veteran. As an administrative guy, he really has a desk job. The realty is at 11:00 in the morning on Wednesday, Mike was on his way to lunch when this call went out and he didn't hesitate. Mike was the first officer that was on scene and he was the first person that we had that gathered the first units that went in and addressed this. So I'm going to let Mike kind of tell the story of what they experienced firsthand and then we'll take a few questions for Mike as soon as he's done.
LL MIKE MADDEN, SAN BERNARDINO, CALIFORNIA POLICE: Thank you, sir.
I guess I was just asked to come forward and talk a little bit about what it was that we saw and we experienced yesterday and I'll tell you that it was something that although we train for it, it's something that you're never actually prepared for. When we got the call, I oversee dispatch, it's one of my functions and responsibilities with the police department and I know my dispatchers. I know, I know the tone of their voice. I know the severity of calls as they are going out and I could hear it in our dispatcher's voice that this was - this was actually happening, this was a real event and it was the event that we have an active shooter and we have an active shooter going on in our city and I was nearby. I was less than a mile away. And I started coming this way. And I realized as I was getting closer that I was one of the very first units there, myself and Officer Sean Sandoval arrived almost simultaneously and just out of pure luck because the information was evolving so rapidly, it was out of pure luck that I happen to pull into the right location, which was just south of the road that you see here, just north of us. [20:55:05]
It was just south of the building where this tragedy took place. As I was looking and seeing all of the activity and trying to assess what was happening, I was informed that there was, that that was the location where this was happening and I was asking for officers to respond as quickly as possible because we had every belief at that time that we had people still actively being shot inside of the building. My goal was to assemble an entry team and enter into the building to engage the active shooter.
This mindset and this type of training became indoctrinated in us after the Columbine incident, and that was the goal that we run to get in there, and we wanted to stop any further innocent people from being - being injured and possibly killed. As three officers arrived, there was an approximate two-minute time lapse from the time that I got there until we had a team assembled of our four initial responding officers and the four of us then went around the south side of the building.
As we made our way around to the east side, it was immediately evident that the reports that we were getting were 100 percent true. There were victims who were clearly obviously deceased outside of the conference room and I relayed that information to the other responding officers. And again, requested assistance. As we entered into the conference room, that the situation was surreal. It was something that I don't think again we prepare for and they try to an active shooter, we talk about sensory overload, they just try to throw everything at you to prepare you for dealing with that. What you're seeing, what you're hearing, what you're smelling, and it was all of that and more. It was unspeakable. The carnage that we were seeing, the number of people who were injured and unfortunately already dead and the pure panic on the face of those individuals that were still in need and needing to be safe.
We asked -- we got as many people out as quickly as we could. We had approximately, I estimated in talking with the other officers who were with me, probably 50 people responded past us and out the doors. And then we went further into the building and that was a difficult choice to have to make, as well, passing people that we knew were injured and needing assistance, but our goal at that time had to be trying to locate the shooters and deal with them before we could get further assistance in for those people in need of medical attention.
I was very glad to see that in a very short period of time. We had a number of other responders that came in and were able to formulate tactical teams and then continue on with the search. And I was then able to pull back from the situation and go back into handling more of a supervisory role and allowing the other officers to continue with the remainder of the search. Does anybody have any questions?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you think there was still an active shooter? What were you thinking about in terms of there might still be someone in the room? And my second question is how are you doing personally? How are you handling this? MADDEN: First question there was we absolutely believe that there was another shooter. We were told that there were as many as potentially three shooters, but again, we were getting information from multiple callers and people weren't, you know, clear as to exactly how many shooters we did or did not have. Some were seen potentially reporting double suspects and things of that nature. So we were told that one of the suspects had possibly fled in the black vehicle, prior to our arrival, but there was many potentially as two more shooters inside and when we entered, there was fresh gun powder and the smell of gun powder in the air leading me to believe that there was in fact, there were in fact shooters still.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You are trained for this, obviously, but you talk to people you can never be trained for it when it happens. How emotional was it for you? It looks like there are tears in your eyes right now.
MADDEN: You know, you -- to be honest, you guys, it was a little surreal. It was, you know, you train for it and you know that your job is dealing in reality, but it seemed a little surreal, but yet, I did the job that I was supposed to do. My job is to go in there and, you know, people don't call the police because they are having a great day. They call because there's tragedy going on, and this was tragedy ...
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