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Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees
Birther Sequel: Trump Dings Cruz's Citizenship; Trump: They're Not Going To Take Your Guns Away; Trump: Cruz "Perhaps" Shortchanging N.H.; Emotional Obama Calls For "Sense Of Urgency" On Guns; Trump Supporters Blast Obama's Gun Control Plan; Massive Online Gun Marketplace; Leader Of Armed Protest Speaks; Heroin Epidemic Blamed On Prescription Painkillers; Leader Of Armed Oregon Protest Speaks; Armed Oregon Activist: FBI Has Warrants For Our Arrest; Lesson Learned From Waco Siege; FBI Denies Issuing Warrants For Oregon Protesters; Suspicious Seismic Disturbance Recorded In North Korea. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired January 05, 2016 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[21:01:25] ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening. Just past 9:00 p.m. here in New York. Birther standard time in the campaign trail apparently were Donald Trump is now raising some doubts about his Canadian-born rival Ted Cruz, Canadian-born to an American citizen, which puts him in good company including John McCain born on Panama Canal zone and Mitt Romney's dad, presidential candidate George Romney, born in Mexico.
Trump kicked off the controversy last night telling the Washington Post and I quote, "Republicans are going to have ask themselves a question, do we want a candidate who could be tied up in court for two years? That would be a big problem."
Joining us now of CNN Sara Murray with Trump campaign tonight in New Hampshire. So, is this actual a birther talk? And what can you tell us? Is he just saying that he's kind of raising the question or is he actually suggesting that Cruz shouldn't be president because of this?
SARA MURRAY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Donald Trump has a way of putting these attacks out there without actually taking credit for them. Do you like to make it sound like he's just raising the question but I think the reality, Anderson, is that this jab reflected a different race, a different sort of tenure in the race.
He and Ted Cruz played really nice with each other. They were sort of BFFs. There was a bromance going on out there. But now, that we are just a month out from Iowa there in neck in neck in the polls, I think Donald Trump wants to put up every firewall he can to ensure that he can win in these early nominating states.
We saw that was him putting a lot of money behind ads up in the airwaves and I think that's what we're seeing now as he raises these questions about Ted Cruz. COOPER: And Trump spoke out tonight about President Obama's tearful news conference today and his new executive actions on gun control. I want to play that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: They're not going to take your guns away, folks. They're not going to do it. They're trying. They're talking about the bullets, they're talking about -- and then as you see, President Obama is on television.
Who can blame you? No, no. Honestly, after what we've gone through for years, who could blame you for that? I mean who can blame you?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: And I'm sure in just before the event, he was actually given a firearm, right?
MURRAY: That's right. So it's been an interesting day on the campaign trail with Donald Trump and all of the latest gun news. We actually spoke to the owners of a local gun store here in Claremont, New Hampshire, earlier today who hatched this plan about a week and a half ago that they wanted to give Donald Trump an AR-15 rifle as a thank you for coming to town and just show their support.
So they were backstage before this event, they arranged everything with the secret service, disarmed the weapon to actually gave that to Donald Trump as a gift. It's unclear exactly how that's going to work for Trump. He lives in Manhattan, as we know, and New York has very strict gun laws.
But we were talking to the gun owners and they said people like to use these rifles for hunting coyotes and varmints, so we'll see how he deals with the special gift. Anderson?
COOPER: Sara Murray, appreciate it, thanks very much.
Just before the rally, Donald Trump sat down with our old friend and former CNN political editor Paul Steinhauser. Paul's currently political director at New Hampshire one news, a pretty good gig these days. Here's a portion of tonight's interview.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PAUL STEINHAUSER, CNN POLTICAL EDITOR: Mr. Trump?
TRUMP: Yes.
STEINHAUSER: I want to ask you about Ted Cruz and your comments that because of his birthright or his birthplace in Canada it may be precarious for the Republican Party to have a nominee like that. Are you suggesting or questioning his birthright, his citizenship?
TRUMP: No, I'm not at all. I just know that it's being questioned all over and a lot of people are asking me that question and I know The Washington Post asked me that question today and all I know is that a lot of people are talking about it. I hope it's not so. I hope it doesn't come about.
[21:05:00] But people are worried that if you weren't born in this country which he wasn't, he was born in Canada and he actually had a Canadian passport along with a U.S. passport until just recently I mean I could within the last couple of years. So I don't know what it all means. I know that people are talking about it.
The problem is that, if the democrats bring a lawsuit, the lawsuit could take years to resolve and how do you have a candidate where there's something, you know, over the head of the party and that individual? So, I hope it wouldn't be the truth. I hope that wouldn't be, you know, what it is and we'll find out, I guess. I mean, Ted will be able to answer the question hopefully satisfactory. I hear a couple of states have a problem with it, too.
STEINHAUSER: You put out a tweet today suggesting that you jump the shark on this one, you haven't been critical from them, but now it seems you're stepping up that criticism?
TRUMP: No, this was a really a question given to me. I know nothing about it and I really know nothing about it and hope it's -- I hope this would not be a reason for disqualification. So hopefully he'll have the answers.
STEINHAUSER: You got a big endorsement today Andrew Hemingway...
TRUMP: Yes.
STEINHAUSER: A very influential conservative activist here, I was talking to him and he said while he likes Ted Cruz, he would endorse Cruz before you, you're here all the time, your campaigning in New Hampshire. Ted Cruz really isn't. Do you think Ted Cruz is short changing New Hampshire?
TRUMP: Well perhaps, oh, I know he's got -- I think he's got all of his onions in the O basket of Iowa and, you know, that's fine but he hasn't been here very much. I don't think he intends to be very much. I'm here all the time.
And I've spent a lot of time in Iowa, too. I'm doing really well in Iowa and we're doing really, really well right here. So, we're very happy with it. And I guess he hasn't been here but Andrew is a fantastic guy and, you know, we're very honored that he came on us, I mean he left Ted's campaign to come with us.
STEINHAUSER: I've got to ask you what happened last night in Lowell. For a week you have been talking about Bill Clinton his past sexual infidelities and then, maybe he needy too make much of it, but there was no mention of it last night.
TRUMP: Well, I wanted to give it all a break. I mean, I brought it up and it was something that I think had to be said, because that they were saying lot's of things about other people including myself in terms of sexists and I will say there's nobody that has more respect for women than I do. Nobody.
And nobody's going to do more for women than I do and that includes Hillary Clinton and I'm going to do something for everybody. I'm going to make our country great but I'm going to make our country safe and nobody's going to be able to do that like I will do it and Hillary Clinton wouldn't know where to start and doesn't know where, I mean she actually gave us ISIS if you think about it, with her very dumb policies.
So, you know, so I brought it up. They certainly haven't said anything. I was mentioned nine times during their debate and now they are not mentioning. So, perhaps what I did served good purpose.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Paul Steinhauser joins us now along with CNN chief national correspondent John King. John, I mean, to be fair Donald Trump he was asked -- or apparently asked about Ted Cruz's citizenship by The Washington Post didn't necessarily bring it up himself. But it's hard to believe he didn't know exactly what he was doing when he responded. I mean, interestingly he says, I don't know anything about it but I'm hearing people talk.
JOHN KING, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, I mean if you -- we could stop talking you just replay what he just told Paul there over and over again, because that is trademark Trump.
Yes, he was asked about it by The Washington Post but he answered it. That he could have said, forget about that. I've had my lawyers look into it months ago which he did say to ABC months ago, there's nothing to it. Maybe some freak show democrat will make it an issue of them, let's not talk about that because Ted's qualified. I'd rather debate Ted on the issues.
That's what he could have said, but that's not what he said to The Washington Post and maybe he could have said, I should have said that to The Washington Post, so that when Paul Steinhauser ask him a few hours later, he could have said, you know, I answered that question but what he said, but I don't want to do that, because I don't want to go there.
Of course Ted Cruz is qualified but he didn't. And what did he say? "Well I'm not bringing this up. But people are talking about, people are asking me about it. You know, he was born in Canada. You know, he did have a Canadian passport. You know, they might sue about this, it this is trademark Trump. And that's the -- look it, this is the moment we are in.
Cruz went after Trump today, too. They have had this mostly truce throughout this campaign. Cruz was asked a question in Iowa about immigration. He said, Donald Trump will let those -- once he says, Donald Trump says anyone who came in illegally has to leave but then Donald Trump won't let them come back, I won't let them come back. So guess what, the gloves are off Anderson and that's because the clock is ticking. COOPER: Paul, I would love to look at a transcript of that interview, because just the kind of the to track the sentences to John's point, it was pretty amazing. I mean, he's saying is not questioning Cruz's citizenship but, you know, he was born in Canada.
You know, the people have been asking about it. He thinks it could be problematic but if that he doesn't know anything about it. You've covered a lot of Trump rallies. Has he been getting these questions a lot from the voters or from the press?
STEINHAUSER: No, much more from the media than from the audience. They're asking about a lot of issues that are important to them. We're asking more about the horse race and while Trump has a pretty big league here in New Hampshire over Ted Cruz, it's not the case in Iowa, so, you know, to John's point, I can see why he wants to bring this up now and feels maybe little heat from Ted Cruz, especially in Iowa, Anderson. Here at this rally, that I know.
[21:10:00] He was training, he was firing war on Hillary Clinton than on Ted Cruz and it really looks like Donald Trump is trying to get into a general election mode saying, I'm ready to take on Hillary Clinton. First after this past, he's other of the guy from the GOP primaries, but he's trying to focus now more on Hillary Clinton at least when it comes to these rallies he's holding.
COOPER: And gentlemen as if he's doing this in New Hampshire not Iowa, Trump obviously tell has the edge in New Hampshire, trailing Cruz in Iowa, do you think that the Trump campaign is doubling down on New Hampshire and that, you know, raising this about Cruz is part of that?
STEINHAUSER: Well, that takes fascinating question, because all of the candidates, even those at the top of the fact have to make some very key strategic campaign decisions over the next several days. The clock is ticking so fast. Most of the other campaigns think that Cruz is going to win Iowa and so you do have a whether it's Chris Christie or Jeb Bush or Marco Rubio on the establishment side, this little competition about who can somebody get a strong second or more likely because I think Trump is still strong out there, who can be the third candidate to come out of Iowa.
But most of those establishment guys will dip their toes in Iowa and spend almost all of their time in New Hampshire over the next 28 to 30 days. The question for Donald Trump is, his brand is winning. He says, I'm a winner. They are losers. I'm winning, I'm strong. I'm the toughest. I'm the best. Can his brand take losing? That's one of the big questions in this campaign.
So that's why, look, remember, a couple weeks ago he started to go after Ted Cruz. He said not a lot of evangelicals come out of Cuba and questioned his faith a little bit.
But the Rush Limbaugh on Mark Levin and conservative blog as their crowd went -- not on Trump's saying, don't go there. We like Ted Cruz. A lot of us like you, too. But don't do that, and Trump backed up, but Ted Cruz is still growing in Iowa. Everyone on the ground in Iowa tells you it was Cruz who has momentum there right now and I think this is a clear sign that Trump knows he is at risk of losing somewhere in the first state of votes and so he's getting tougher.
COOPER: Paul, do you anticipate further kind of squirmishes between these two, particularly coming from Trump? Because I mean, to John raises a really good point. Rush Limbaugh, Mark Levin and others, you know, really kind of push Trump off of going after Cruz?
STEINHAUSER: Trump, Anderson, you've seen John, you've seen Trump has no problem speaking his mind, no problem attacking other Republicans running for the nomination and now that he's picking up the pace with Cruz, yeah, I think we'll see it continue because yeah, Cruz is very strong. He is a threat to Trump in Iowa. Not the case here in New Hampshire. But with five weeks to go, that could change.
Cruz is coming back to New Hampshire next week. As for Trump, his ads are now running in New Hampshire. He says he's going to spend up to a million dollars a week here in New Hampshire. He's got a sizeable lead in the polls but he's not taking anything for granted with five weeks to go until our primary here in New Hampshire. Anderson.
COOPER: All right, Paul Steinhauser, good to see you again. Paul, thanks for being on the program. John King as well.
Just ahead, what Trump supporters think of President Obama's emotional plea for stricter gun measures. And a breaking news that could reshape the arm standoff in Oregon and raise the attention even more. A live report ahead on "360".
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[21:16:16] COOPER: As you saw at the top, Donald Trump had a warning tonight, President Obama is trying to take your guns away. The facts though somewhat different just two days before the "360" town hall on the subject, the president laid out a series of executive actions including tightening the loophole that allows certain firearm purchases without background checks at gun shows. Here's an extended clip from the emotional event.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA PRESIDENT: All right. It's a peaceful assembly. That right was robbed from moviegoers in Aurora and Lafayette. Our unalienable right to life and liberty in the pursuit of happiness, those rights were stripped from college kids in Blacksburg and Santa Barbara and from high schoolers at Columbine.
And from first graders in Newtown. First graders. And from every family who never imagined that their loved one would be taken from our lives by a bullet from a gun. Every time I think about those kids, it gets me mad. And by the way, it happens on the streets of Chicago everyday.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Just to underscore, President Obama today did not call for taking any guns away from any law-abiding citizens. However, there's not much that he could've said that would go over well in the Trump rally as our Randi Kaye discovered.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: This is an assault on the Second Amendment. You know, Obama's going to do an executive order and really knock the hell out of it.
RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: When Donald Trump tells supporters President Obama is attacking their Second Amendment and that is going to take away their guns, they believed him.
Do you fear that President Obama is coming for your guns?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I do believe that's his main objective, yes.
KAYE: Do you think the president will be to take away your gun?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
KAYE: Do you believe it when the president says he's not coming for your guns?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Of course not. I don't believe that one bit.
KAYE: We caught up with these Trump supporters, many of them gun owners at this rally in Claremont, New Hampshire, just hours after the president laid out his new requirements for gun sellers and buyers which include expanded background checks.
Anyone who can legally buy gun now will still be able to legally buy gun? So what's the problem with greater background check?
TOM KAWCZYNSKI, DONALD TRUMP SUPPORTER: But I think you just made the case if you think about it, if they're already covered, why make another regulation to say what's already being said? Bad guys are going to get control of guns because they're going to do things that are illegal, all that this is doing is punishing good people for what bad people do.
KAYE: And despite the president saying this to calm fears.
OBAMA: This is not a plot to take away everybody's guns.
KAYE: Many we spoke with here are considering buying up guns before the laws get any tougher, like this woman.
LONDON LUCIA, DONALD TRUMP SUPPORTER: I think if he tries to take away our guns, that he's basically breaking the law. It's our Second Amendment right and we have every right to protect ourselves.
KAYE: And while we found a few in the crowd who don't mind the tougher background checks, they still don't believe it would make any difference.
DAREN MALLORY, DONALD TRUMP SUPPORTER: What would make America safe, what would really make America safe, to be to take the guns away from the criminals. Not the law-abiding citizens. I'm not the problem, I'm a good guy with a gun. Not a bad guy with a gun.
KAYE: Would extra background, and extra controls do that?
MALLORY: Really, wouldn't know, wouldn't it be great if they just enforce the laws that are currently on the box (ph).
KAYE: 30,000 people a year die from gun violence, so what's the answer?
[21:20: 03] HAROLD SMITH, DONALD TRUMP SUPPORTER: Well, I don't believe making more laws to make it harder to get guns is going to do anything to that. Like I said, if the criminals out there they want guns they're going to get them one way or another.
KAYE: Trump supporters are confident if he makes it to the Oval Office, one strike with a pen and Mr. Obama's gun regulations are history.
KAWCZYNSKI: Trump is right in identifying that we need to address the problems of people who are making bad decisions and understand that guns are just a tool and as Americans we should have rights to owe the tools we want, including guns.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Here, Randi joins us from Donald Trump's, New Hampshire, rally were - was there anything in there about the president's plan that anyone actually liked?
KAYE: There were a couple things to Anderson, we spoke to some people as they were waiting in line and they told me that they like the idea that the president put forward today about being able to lock a gun remotely if it got into the wrong hands if it was stolen.
They also liked the idea he mention about somebody coming up with some sort of app where you could lock a gun, again remotely if it got into a child's hand. The president you heard him today saying a child can't open a bottle of aspirin, why should they be able to fire a gun?
But as much as they might liked these ideas, the people I spoke who don't think they're feasible, they also think their costly and they certainly don't want that price tacked on to the price of a weapon. They also did like the idea of some background checking. Its expanded background checks, but again they always think the criminals are going to be able to get around them.
So, bottom line Anderson, there wasn't a lot of love for Obama's new regulations here and certainly not a whole lot of confident that they're going to be able to prevent the next mass shooting, Anderson?
COOPER: Yeah, certainly a lot of suspicion there as well, Randi Kaye, thank you very much. Just the head gun sales are surging, not everyone buys weapons in stores or guns field what will the expanded background checks President Obama announce say mean for guns sold on the internet? We'll look at that, ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[21:25:09] COOPER: President Obama's emotional appeal to the gun control and background checks clearly spoke to the heart, the question though is to his new guidelines speak directly enough specifically enough and forcefully enough to fight online purchases that some individuals use to evade background checks.
As our Drew Griffin found out like almost everything else involved in firearms, the laws are complicated.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DREW GRIFFIN, CNN SENIOR INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT: You can only buy a gun without a background check in the 32 States that allows sales between two private citizens to take place unregulated. And to find a gun in those states, there's no easier way than this website, the public marketplace that allows private gun sellers to advertise their wares to private gun buyers.
Armslist.com calls itself the largest free gun classified on the web and when you enter the site, you can see that it has plenty of guns for sale. It will first ask you to go to your state, because only guns purchased within the same state by two private parties are legal and can be conducted without any background check. But they have to be private sales by two people in the same state and residing in the same state. And the gun we've selected is right here.
A gun that is listed for sale up for $2,100, it's a 308 rifle and the shipper, it will not ship, they will not send it through the mail. This must be done in person. This is a gun, that if you're in the State of Georgia, you could legally buy this gun without a background check right now.
It is legal but, like everything else on the web, making things easier legally also makes things easier for illegal sales as well. Armslist.com has faced lawsuits arising from illegal gun sales facilitated by its website that were used in violent and deadly acts. Case in point, the tale of Jitka Vesel and Dmitry Smirnov. Jitka lived in a Chicago suburb, Dmitry in Canada. They met on an online gaming site but things got rocky.
That's when Dmitry began harassing her, threatening to commit violate acts, Jitka got a restraining order. Dmitry went to armslist.com and got a gun, a completely illegal sale.
Dmitry Smirnov a Canadian, found a willing seller of a handgun in Seattle, illegal because it crossed borders. And in April 2011, Dmitry Smirnov tracked down his former internet girlfriend outside Chicago and gunned her down. Smirnov was caught pleaded guilty and sentence to life. Armslist.com was sued by the program control advocacy group, the Brady Center, who's legal director told CNN's Randi Kaye, without the Armslist website, Smirnov would have never planned the shot. JOHN LOWY, BRADY CENTER DIRECTOR: Her killer was someone who could not attain that legally, he couldn't got to a gun store, he needed and entity like armslist to get him an illegal seller. Armslist is facilitating and enabling and profiting, off of illegal gun sales.
GRIFFIN: The courts didn't agree. The lawsuit was dismissed with the court noting, "Arms list does not sell, auction, deliver or ship firearms." in other words armslist may have made it easier to buy gun illegally but in the end it was Smirnov and the gun seller who committed the illegal sale.
The website also requires users to agree. They're obeying the law and following the rules in their state. Armslist.com remains up today posting 45,000 guns for sale right now somewhere in the U. S.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Drew, I mean you've bought guns online for other CNN stories. How easy is it to do without getting any background check?
GRIFFIN: You know, if you're trying to buy gun illegally online is really just one path way and that is for two adults to be arranging this purchase within the same state, the seller must be a private person, not in the business of selling guns and the buyer needs to be legally to buy the gun. I can't be a felon and I can't be declared unmentally unfit by a court.
The problem is, this is all just facilitated over the internet. There aren't enough cops, ATF agencies to keep on top all this transactions and it is easy to get away with. If both the buyer and seller break the law. Gun rights groups argue that that's the same with just about everything else from guns to drugs to sold in merchandise. The website only makes it easier to commit crimes if you're willing to commit the crime in the first place.
COOPER: And gun stores, even in an internet-based gun stores, they require background checks?
GRIFFIN: Correct. That is exactly right. If you're buying from a gun store online or anywhere else, anybody who is a licensed dealer, you're going to go through a background check.
[21:30:01] There's no internet sales that take place, you know, through gun stores that avoid this background check. And that's what President Obama is trying to do. He says were going to expand the definition, who is in the business of selling guns. That's how he's going to expand the people that have to go through these background checks. Anderson?
COOPER: All right, Drew Griffin, thanks very much again.
Again, this Thursday, President Obama joins me for a "360" town hall conversation "Guns in America", 8:00 p.m. Eastern. Live here on CNN.
Just ahead tonight breaking news in Oregon. And their armed standoff in a wild life wreckage with the leader of the group settle the surprise news conference in the last hour.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: The several of Republican candidates is campaigning in New Hampshire this week, spent part of the day turning their attention to an epidemic in that state and throughout the country a primary heroin. Jeb Bush, Carly Fiorina, Chris Christie, John Kasich and all spoke today a forum on addiction in heroin in Southern New Hampshire University.
It's an issue that's getting more attention as more people turn to heroin after getting hooked on prescription painkillers. As there are two Medical Correspondent, Dr. Sanjay Gupta, is going to tell us the overwhelming majority of heroin users started out with pills, like Vicodin and Percocet turning to heroin because it's cheaper in many case it was easier to get.
Sanjay's done extensive reporting on this and in this report tonight, he meets a former user who's now only recovering himself but it's helping others in New Hampshire as a recovery coach. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[21:35:06] CASEY CURRIVAN, RECOVERING HEROIN USER: My name is Casey Currivan. I'm a volunteer at Hope for New Hampshire. I'm also a person in recovery now.
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: You met with Jeb Bush?
CURRIVAN: Yeah.
GUPTA: How was that?
CURRIVAN: They were all looking at me and Jeb Bush sitting in the middle. And it was -- the thoughts that went in my head immediately was, I'm not worthy of this. And immediately I thought of Holly Sokala, the Director of the Hope in New Hampshire saying, why not you? I thought, why not me? What don't I have to offer?
GUPTA: What Casey Currivan is offering is a desperate story, tough to hear. About an epidemic of drug abuse that is claiming too many lives in New England.
CURRIVAN: It's a number one thing that somebody under the age 35 is going to die from in my state. It beats out car accidents. If you're not paying attention to that, then you have no right to represent anybody that's even to ignore it.
GUPTA: 14 months ago, drug abuse barely registered here in the granite state. Now it's at the top. More important to voters than jobs, the economy, taxes, you name it.
CURRIVAN: OxyContin went off like a bomb in New England.
GUPTA: It started with oxy. OxyContin. What many don't realize is that pills like these and heroin have a lot in common. In fact, they are so chemically similar that for an addict or an abuser, they are essentially interchangeable. No surprise, then, 80 percent of heroin addicts started off using pills.
GUPTA: How did that happen for you?
CURRIVAN: Somebody in the hotel had offered us heroin. I almost looked at it like a science experiment. That was how my brain justified going through the whole process of using heroin. I sniffed it and it had an effect but it wasn't the effect that I was looking for. An hour later, I shot heroin.
GUPTA: What were you trying to discover here?
CURRIVAN: I just wanted relief.
GUPTA: Relief from?
CURRIVAN: Relief from my thoughts, my feelings, my emotions. If I had the power to choose, I wouldn't choose to use everyday.
GUPTA: What Casey is describing is a Substance Use Disorder. That's a new name for an age-old disorder. Addiction. It's a brain disease. It causes you to seek out drugs no matter how horrible the consequences.
In fact, Casey almost died of a heroin overdose. He now wants Narcan, a sort of antidote in the hands of anyone who needs it. Why? Because it's saved him like he did for this woman. She has overdose and its no longer breathing. Now, watch closely what happens when they gets Narcan.
UNINDENTIFIED FEMALE: Can you see that. Come on. Do you want a glass of water?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yeah.
GUPTA: Casey's message, along with many others, is starting to be heard.
OBAMA: Addiction is not new.
GUPTA: In October, President Obama announced efforts to double the number of providers that can prescribe Narcan. It was welcome news here in New Hampshire were there cries for help, any sort of help, are the loudest. And we kept asking ourselves, why here in New England? Well, the answer, in part, is because heroin is particularly easy to get and very cheap.
GUPTA: How easy is it to find if you wanted to find it?
CURRIVAN: That's a good question. I guarantee you there's nobody in New England with money in their pocket that is saying, god, I wish I could find heroin if they really needed it.
GUPTA: If you've got money, you can find it? CURRIVAN: Yeah.
GUPTA: Casey hopes the days when he was out buying heroin stays behind him. He spent his free time now with his 3-year-old son and staying true to his recovery. Still, this wasn't the life he ever imagined, slowly becoming the new face of a former heroin addict.
CURRIVAN: People think that a person suffering from alcoholism or addiction, they have this image that comes up in their mind and I like to break that image. Because if I met you on the street, you wouldn't think that two years ago I was an IV heroin user.
GUPTA: Yes, Casey Currivan is a new face. Now tasked with taking the message of 23 million Americans currently in recovery, straight to the candidates. Jeb Bush, Bernie Sanders, Chris Christie. Anyone who could possibly stop this epidemic.
CURRIVAN: I'd appreciate it if they uses the same language. Not those addicts.
[21:40:01] Those people, because those people are your moms, your dads, sons, daughters. They are your neighbor. They're the chief of your police. They are everybody. They are your doctor, your nurse. We're not unique people, because we have a chronic neurological condition that treatment is available and recovery is 100 percent possible.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Sanjay, why is heroin become such a big problem, especially in the northeast?
GUPTA: Well, you know, I would say first of all it's been a problem really all over the place, but I think in the northeast in particular it is become especially abundant. It's almost like heroin started to arrive there even before the demand picked up. It defies logic in some ways. The supply was there before the demand and it's also incredibly cheap. It's just the main idea you saw there, Anderson, pain pills and heroin are essentially chemically identical.
A 80 milligram pill of OxyContin for example if you bought $1 per milligram, about $80 per pill, you can buy about third of a gram of heroin for 25, or $30. So you could see it's a huge price differential it's really easy to get. And it's been abundant in supply.
COOPER: So is pills are regulated more closely because of the abuse of them people are turning to heroin because it's cheaper and they can get it more easily than they can prescription pills?
GUPTA: Yeah. That I mean that's, it's sad but true. And what is happened, if you look at the new heroin addict in this country, someone who's a new heroin addict, about 80 percent of them started off by using pain pills.
COOPER: Wow. GUPTA: And as you mentioned, many of them got it legitimately, they became addicted to it, the doctors no longer prescribed it to them at some point and they may have turned to heroin and that's what's happening.
COOPER: And, lastly in Massachusetts police are warning people about something called Hollywood heroin. There have been apparently eight deaths there from within just last week or so. Why is that so deadly?
GUPTA: Well that they're still looking into specifically what this is. My guess is, having been reporting on this and talking to many of this detectives, what happens a lot of times with heroin, they will try and cut it with something else. So adding another substance to it to make it more potent, so they have to use less of it they can make more money that way and a lot of times what they cut it with something known as fentanyl.
Fentanyl is another similar type of drugs similar chemical composition but 10 to 100 times, depending on the dose, more powerful than heroin. So the scenario is, someone who is a regular heroin user and abuser, all of a sudden gets this substance, thinks that they're going to take the same dose as normal and all of a sudden they have an overdose because they have taken a lot more than they have expected to take.
COOPER: I remember talking to a heroin expert in New York I think from John Jay College years ago, who were saying that oftentimes when there's a particularly potent brand of heroin, and the people have actually died taking, it becomes more popular among addicts because they think it must be really strong, it must be a really good high and they actually want to try to find that, which is, you know, a horrific kind of logic.
GUPTA: Yeah. Now it is horrific kind of logic but you can even see if it had a name. Hollywood Heroin, it's exactly right. I mean, there are people who die from it because they've taken a dose that's much stronger than what they were expecting, but there's also an allure of that as well and there are people who want that heroin that's cut with that very, very potent stuff, such as fentanyl because they think it will give them that super high. But it's so dangerous, they can stop your breathing very, very quickly, which is probably what happened in the cases of death.
COOPER: Sanjay Gupta, appreciate it. Thank you, Sanjay.
GUPTA: Yeah, Anderson.
COOPER: Up next, a late update on the armed standoff in Oregon. It is evolving. The stakes could be rising.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[21:47:27] COOPER: This breaking news in New Oregon, standoff tonight have been quite all day with the armed activists occupying a national wild life refuge with him planning to talk to group leader Rancher Ammon Bundy about his new demands. Then a short time ago he called in prom the news conference. Sarah Sidner joins me now with the latest. So what exactly did he said? What's going on?
SARAH SIDNER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: He came out quite nervously actually. And it's the first time we sort seen him like this. And he said look they have sources telling them that the FBI had issued arrest warrants for five people who were all down at that headquarters including one of the men who's sitting behind me under that blue tarp who says that he is going to stand his ground he brought out his rifle.
It's the first time that we've seen somebody openly carrying a gun out here. He's brought it out, he is setting down he says he is not going to jail he will not leave here and go to jail if that means that he loses his life. So there is a great deal of nervousness among those who have stayed out here and decided to continue to occupy this headquarters which is about a five-minute walk down the road just behind me. They also broke off and said that they were concerned about the harm and risk the whole reason why they're here was because of these two ranchers who had to go back to prison after a federal judge determined their arson sentence was not long enough and sent them back to prison.
They went down to the ranch and then said that they were turned around that there was no problem down at the ranch right now. They were worried if that ranch was going to be taken over by the FBI for some reason. So they are getting information from outside sources Anderson, but right now all is calm again.
COOPER: We should also pointing out the Hammond family attorney as I understand early as the, the attorney for the two men who are now in jail or in prison has said that these -- whatever you want to call these guy, these armed guys do not speak for anybody in the Hammond family, correct?
SIDNER: That's correct. That's what the attorney has been saying, but the family has sort of separated it so. These guys have said, we don't speak for the family. But we certainly have listened to the family's concerns. They have met with the family, they say, earlier on of course before they turned themselves in to go back to prison.
There are people in the community here Anderson who are both frustrated with this group, saying they feel like they were lied to and they there are also folks who support them and have been giving them food and water and those sorts of things. Anderson.
COOPER: All right, Sarah Sidner. Thank you very much. Almost exactly 26 years ago, you may remember Waco, Texas and now they stand off in the disastrously.
[21:50:01] More than 80 people dead after federal agents stormed a compound that was home to a cult. Lessons from that interest rate have reshaped the play book for armed standoffs.
Joining me now is Chris Swecker, a former FBI Assistant Director and CNN Law Enforcement Analyst, Tom Fuentes, who's also a former FBI Assistant Director.
Chris, I mean clearly what's going on here is different than in the situation in Waco where there were children and other innocents involved here, right?
CHRIS SWECKER, FMR FBI ASSISTANT DIRECTOR: Yeah, I think so, that was a cult. What we're dealing with here is a basically a various spinoffs of the militia or patriot movement. So very different issues here, there they thought the children were being abused. There was urgency in going in, that had been about a 45-day standoff.
Here, we have no person is in any particular danger, just a couple of obscure government buildings. No doubt the law is being broken.
COOPER: Right, yes, the law is being broken but there's nobody in danger right now, nobody being held against their will.
SWECKER: Correct.
COOPER: Tom, the approach seemed to be just to wait them out, make them maybe uncomfortable enough, they'll just go home. Does it sound like that has changed?
TOM FUENTES, FMR FBI ASSISTANT DIRECTOR: No, I think that probably is still the approach, Anderson and hi Chris, by the way.
SWECKER: Hi, again Tom.
FUENTES: You know, I think what they're looking at here obviously is trying to avoid violence. They don't have innocent people and little children in the buildings in the compound like they did in Waco.
And Waco, that lasted 52 days. And as Chris mentioned the decision to finally end that came because children were being abused inside, young girls were being offered to David Koresh and they were hearing -- they had on microphones and frankly after a while the attorney general said that's enough were going to end this thing and hopefully peacefully.
Koresh had his people set the fires. Koresh shot the little children in the head. Koresh is responsible for the disaster that ensued at that location. So it's a much different situation.
COOPER: And Chris, I mean these guys have broken the law. I mean, what they're doing is illegal. They're on -- they're not -- that is not their property. They've moved in, they've taken it over. Should they face charges for this or does that risk making a guy like Ammon Bundy a sympathetic figure?
SWECKER: Well, in some circles, I mean they're obviously trying to make him a sympathetic figure. And they were emboldened by their actions in 2014 when the Bureau of Land Management basically walked away and rightfully so, because they were in a bad tactical position. There were snipers on hill tops. There were about 300 militia members there from various militias. So they were in a tough spot.
And this is a series of low-level provocations that have culminated in this takeover of these buildings. So they're clearly trying to provoke a reaction. I think the FBI and the government is smart to hang back now. I mean, eventually they will get arrest warrants and they will arrest these people, maybe not on this property. Maybe this will fizzle out or maybe it will escalate. We'll have to see.
COOPER: And Tom, how does it work? I mean, is it the FBI in-charge here? Because we're only seeing the local sheriff making statements. Is that by design? Is that the...
FUENTES: No that's right.
COOPER: Is that by design?
FUENTES: Yes, because of the anti-federal government sentiment and the idea that the county does have authority. The FBI technically is in-charge because this is a U.S. government reservation, just like if it was the U.S. Capitol or the White House, its federal property. But the FBI is allowing the sheriff to be the spokesperson because he is locally elected, he's supported by the local ranchers. So he's front and center on this rather than somebody from the FBI or the federal government at all. So that's the reason behind it.
And I think that as far as the waiting them off goes, what often happens in a situation like this and I've seen it in other ones is, that if there's no violence, eventually the media will leave. When the media will leave they'll have no reason to stay. They'll leave and those that may have charges will be arrested on the way out. So, that's how this may end. It's not going to end well while all the coverage is going on.
COOPER: Tom Fuentes. Thank you, Chris Swecker as well. Coming up next, more breaking news, a large and highly suspicious seismic event where North Korea does nuclear testing.
We have late details it's just -- word of this is just crossing, when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[21:57:54] COOPER: There's more breaking news tonight. The Earth just shook, excuse me, in a part of North Korea where they do their underground nuclear testing. The concern naturally is that the tremors measuring magnitude 5.1 were manmade. Our Paula Hancocks is in Seoul, South Korea, joins us now with the very latest. What do we know, Paula?
PAULA HANCOCKS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well Anderson, we have confirmation from the Met Agency here that it was a manmade explosion, a manmade event. We don't have the confirmation of exactly what that means. We're going to hear according to Yonhap News Agency from North Korea itself at 12:30 a.m. -- p.m. local time, that's in about an hour's time, so 11:00 p.m. Eastern. So we'll hear exactly what's -- what is happened at that point.
But this is following the pattern of what we've seen in the past. There is a seismic event that is reported, then we have the speculation and then we have the confirmation from North Korea that it was in fact a nuclear test. So we are -- we can't confirm at this point that's what it is, but it is following the pattern of what we've seen before.
Now we know the South Koreans, the Chinese, the Japanese, everyone in the region is holding emergency meetings. They're up is the assuming the same that many others are as well, that this could be once again a nuclear test. They have done three in the past 2006, 2009, 2013. Could this be number four? Anderson.
COOPER: And I mean, we know obviously the history here, but just very briefly, how have relations been recently?
HANCOCKS: Ironically relations between North and South have actually been pretty good. There was a family reunion just the end of last year. There had been talked between North and South. So relatively speaking they've actually been getting on quite well and then of course this happens.
North Korea knows the repercussions of a nuclear test in the past. There have been UN Security Council meetings, there had been intense sanctions. And of course, if this is what this is once again, inevitably that will be exactly the same that happens this time. But ironically relations between North and South Korea were actually pretty good at this point, Anderson.
COOPER: Paula Hancocks will continue monitoring it, thank you very much. That does it for our broadcast, thanks very much for watching.
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