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Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees
Trump Shifts Again On Immigration; Clinton: Trump Campaign Built On "Prejudice And Paranoia"; Italy Declares State Of Emergency In Quake-Hit Regions; Mosul's Secret Resistance Against ISIS. Aired 9- 10p ET
Aired August 25, 2016 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[21:01:00] ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening. Tonight our "360" exclusive interview with Donald Trump, his second major shift in the last 48 hours on the founding issue of his campaign, immigration policy. I asked him whether he stands behind the label that he had for Hillary Clinton, bigot. We begin, though, with her point by point attack on him today and the kind of bigotry that she says he stands for. Jeff Zeleny has that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JEFF ZELENY, CNN SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Hillary Clinton opening a new blistering line of attack tonight against Donald Trump.
HILLARY CLINTON, (D) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: He says he wants to make America great again, but more and more it seems as though his real message seems to be make America hate again.
ZELENY: In Reno, Clinton going farther than she's gone before, painting Trump as divisive, dangerous and radical.
CLINTON: The last thing we need in the Situation Room is a loose cannon who can't tell the difference or doesn't care to between fact and fiction. And who buys so easily into racially tinged rumors.
ZELENY: She said Trump and his new advisers are peddling hate by embracing an alt-right philosophy linked to the white nationalist movement.
CLINTON: This is not conservatism as we have known it. This is not Republicanism as we have known it.
ZELENY: Campaigning in New Hampshire today, Trump said Clinton was spreading smears and lies.
DONALD TRUMP, (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I want you to remember these three words. Shame on you.
ZELENY: More than a full-throated take-down of her rival, Clinton also all but shamed Republicans from aligning themselves with Trump's rhetoric. CLINTON: This is a moment of reckoning for every Republican dismayed at the party of Lincoln has become the party of Trump.
ZELENY: And Clinton also took aim at Stephen Bannon, the Trump campaign's new CEO whose website Breitbart News routinely publishes conspiracy theories and offers a racially tinged world view.
CLINTON: A fringe element that has effectively taken over the Republican Party.
ZELENY: As Trump seems to be trying to moderate and soften his tone ...
TRUMP: Believe it or not, I regret it.
ZELENY: ... Clinton is intent on reminding voters of Trump's greatest and most controversial hits.
CLINTON: Now Trump is trying to rebrand himself as well. But don't be fooled. We know who Trump is.
ZELENY: The Reno speech is the latest in a series of addresses trying to undercut Trump's perceived strengths.
From national security ...
CLINTON: He is temperamentally unfit.
ZELENY: ... to his business acumen.
CLINTON: He's written a lot of books about business. They all seem to end at Chapter 11.
ZELENY: Tonight she's also extending a hand to skeptical Republicans as she tries to lure them away from Trump.
CLINTON: Every day more Americans are standing up and saying enough is enough, including a lot of Republicans, and I am honored to have their support in this campaign.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Jeff, you alluded to this. I mean, who was Hillary Clinton's target audience in this?
ZELENY: Well, Anderson, she said it was a moment of reckoning for Republicans. So this was a rare speech where she was actually reaching out to Republicans. Democrats, of course, largely agree with her on this. This was not a speech designed to bring over people from the left, anyone who has questions about her. It was a speech aimed at people who are not comfortable necessarily with some of what Donald Trump has been saying.
She, of course, talked about Bob Dole fondly, talked about George W. Bush, talked about John McCain, gave instances how each of them had sort of embraced President Obama in one respect, had dismissed hate in another respect, and she said that Donald Trump simply isn't doing that. But she was also trying to change the subject, Anderson, from a rocky week that she has had on the campaign trail.
The question is, are Republicans open to supporting her? Some may be, but the vast majority, I believe, certainly would not be.
COOPER: Yeah. It's good point about her trying to change the subject certainly, Jeff Zeleny.
Back now with the panel. Joined also this hour by conservative talk show host Dana Loesch. Dana, it's always good to have you on. What are you hearing from your listeners about Donald Trump on immigration? Are they confused?
[21:05:00] Because it seems like the panel here is confused. Are they confused?
DANA LOESCH, CONSERVATIVE TALK SHOW HOST: They are. And, Anderson, thanks for having me. I took calls all day on radio about this and people were a little confused. Some were trying to come to grips with well, is this just him kind of pivoting and running a general election campaign as opposed to running a primary in a general? Is this just him simply caving and copying Jeb Bush's immigration plan, Marco Rubio's immigration plan, all the immigration plans of everyone else that it was called amnesty throughout the primary? People were really confused.
And I think what they're waiting for, Anderson, I think they're waiting to see what he actually says in terms of concrete steps besides general platitudes, besides saying, well, we're going to send the bad ones back. OK, how are we going to do this? Enforcing the laws we have. OK, let's name them. Let's walk people down the path without taking them through the weeds. Let's make it concise. I'm sure that we can explain it to where people can understand. That's what they're waiting for. People are willing to give him the benefit of the doubt but they're feeling incredibly uneasy right now.
COOPER: And, Dana, if he is backing away, if he is softening from the idea of all 11 million or however many undocumented immigrants are in the country, they all got to get out, deportation force, it will be done humanely and the good ones can get back in which has sense to what he was saying during the primary. If he is backing away from that, do you think is that a danger -- I mean, it's obviously a danger for him losing some of his base. What are you hearing from listeners?
LOESCH: I think the biggest danger right now to him, Anderson, is the longer that he takes to have a policy speech on this ...
COOPER: I see.
LOESCH: ... the more he's allowing Hillary Clinton's reaction and the media reaction to write this for him. He's going to be reacting instead of introducing and setting policy with this.
He did have deportation for 11 million people here illegally. He had deportation on the table. There -- he talked -- he's been on a CNN debate where he was talking about deportation. Now, if he's saying, look, we're only going to take the bad ones out, and then you had asked him too as well, Anderson when you said, OK, well, are we talking about a pathway to legalization because there's a difference between legalization and then whether or not someone's going to have the status of a citizen.
COOPER: Right.
LOESCH: And he didn't really get into the difference of that. He was talking about legalization, OK, does that mean voting in your local elections, does that mean you're going to give people the general vote because that's one of the things that in the Gang of Eight Ted Cruz was trying to amend and take away the voting process for that. It's really confusing. He's got to come out.
And this is what -- people are willing, Anderson, people are willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. I don't know how long that's going to last. But I will say this. I think that the individuals that he was hoping to maybe loop in here, the people who were always about let's enforce the existing laws that we have, we're not going to be able to have a deportation force large enough to deport ...
COOPER: Right.
LOESCH: ... 11 million people, so let's talk about no voting rights and legalization status. I don't know if he acted quickly enough from what I heard from people today to loop those people in.
COOPER: Got it. Paul, I mean, you were tweeting about Secretary Clinton's speech today.
PAUL BEGALA, PRO HILLARY SUPER PAC ADVISER: Manically.
COOPER: Yeah. You were -- you're saying it was cutting but calm, it was certainly different than most of the kind of the stump speeches that, you know, we've seen from her, frankly?
BEGALA: Right. Well, the juxtaposition was also telling. Donald Trump was shouting at the teleprompter. And then a few minutes later, Hillary's on, she often shouts at the teleprompter, too, to tell you the truth. And it's off-putting, right? She was calm. This is Hillary the lawyer. And she laid out an indictment. She cited 13 specific times that she believes Donald Trump has acted in a racially biased way. She didn't just say oh, he's a bigot like Trump.
COOPER: But how much of this was just to get the topic off the Clinton Foundation, get the topic off the 15,000 e-mails?
BEGALA: You always want to change the subject when you have bad news but she chose as her slogan stronger together. Unity is one of her core values. It has always been. It was her first job out of school, was going to work for the Children's Defense Fund. She's always cared desperately about these issues. And so now, she's up against a guy who she thinks is terrible on this.
Now, here's a strategy behind it, though. Quinnipiac Poll came out today. The amateurs well all say, well, the head-to-head, Hillary's up 10. That's not what's important. It's not the professionals are looking at. Professionals are looking at a cross tab of college educated whites. Barack Obama lost them by 11 points to Mitt Romney. No Democrat has ever won college educated whites in the history of polling, ever. She's winning them by one. By one. Just by one. But she's winning them.
If Donald Trump can't win college educated whites, that's who she was talking to today, that's why she praised George W. Bush and praised John McCain and praised Bob Dole and quoted Paul Ryan. She's --she is reaching into the other side and pulling them over and it's very, very effective. It is working in this poll.
COOPER: Scottie?
SCOTTIE NELL HUGHES, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: You know, it's interesting you say the word unifying. That's not what I heard from Hillary. Now, granted that she fed -- she fed the meat that you wanted but she insulted a huge group. In fact, what we consider to be the silent majority who for the last two years have awoken. You look at that room, and you look at there's a lot of angry people. I did not see smiles and cheers as compared to a Trump rally where there are tens -- there's 10, 12, 15,000 people that ...
[21:10:00] BEGALA: And frequent violence.
HUGHES: No. There's more violence outside.
(CROSSTALK)
HUGHES: Yeah, but there's more violence outside ...
BEGALA: Somebody got punched out.
HUGHES: More Trump people have been assaulted than Hillary Clinton folks. OK, let me point that out. And by Hillary Clinton people.
BEGALA: That's a bunch of hooey.
HUGHES: No, it's the truth. More people have been assaulted. We saw last week in Minnesota during a fund-raiser, these people were assaulted. So, no.
The problem is you look at Hillary looked very angry but she insulted. And if you want to talk about unifying, she didn't unify. You know, you look at the group that does read Breitbart or that's reads the "Blaze", or read -- all these people, she was -- she insulted all of us right here today. By saying that just because she does not like who she's running against, she called us all racist. She called us all bigot. And that is what the Republicans always do.
BEGALA: Scottie.
COOPER: Let him respond.
BEGALA: Do you agree that birth control makes women unattractive and crazy? That's a Breitbart headline Hillary cited today. Do you agree with this? Breitbart headline and Hillary quoted today in her speech. Would you rather your child have feminism or cancer? Do you believe Gabby Giffords is the gun control movement's human shield? These are headlines from the Breitbart website that Hillary does not like.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Let me finish. Let me finish. And so -- excuse me for talking while you're interrupting, Scottie.
And so, it's a legitimate question to say why would someone who publishes this kind of thing be selected to be the CEO of Trump's campaign? He has a perfect right to publish it. I'm glad we have a free press. I really am. But why would he pick him of all the people he could pick? Why would he pick a guy that publish ...
COOPER: Dana, do you -- did you think it was smart for Hillary Clinton to kind of bring up this alt-right thing? Especially at this time because I mean, again, to points others have made, it has changed the topic from -- when you're talking about Clinton, away from the Clinton Foundation which has certainly been a couple bad days for her?
LOESCH: Yes and no. I think it was -- if I were running against someone, I would want to take off my -- I would want to get my opponent at the knees no matter, you know, how.
So she brought that up as a way, I do think that she in a way kind of, she didn't really emphasize the difference between conservatives and the alt-right. I didn't like how she was positioning herself as like the savior of the Republican Party because, Anderson, if memory calls, she actually identified Republicans as enemies in her interview with you not too long ago.
But when she's trying to paint Trump with the alt-right, I think it was a bad choice to have Bannon on. I like Kellyanne Conway. I -- Steve Bannon comes with a lot of baggage and this is some of the baggage that he comes with. And it isn't representative of all conservatives or all Republicans, though.
And here's where I think it's a bad idea for her to do so. She just opened the door wide open to herself. And everyone's already -- I've already heard it discussed just on your program this evening, Anderson, someone bringing up the fact that she had once called Robert Byrd her friend and mentor. Let's not forget the "New York Times" busting Bill Clinton in 1993 when he was the -- when he frequented an all white golf course back in Arkansas and he didn't stop going until the "New Times" busted him in '93. There's a ton of stuff there that I don't think that she wants to rehash. So, she kind of opened the door on herself going down this road. So, we're going to see how that pans out, I guess.
COOPER: All right. We got to take a break. A lot more to talk about including question for Clinton supporters and with vast Trump supporters before, any of the controversy surrounding her giving them a second thought.
Later, more of our exclusive "360" interview with Donald Trump.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[21:16:13] COOPER: Well, for all the news that Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton made today, they each went into the day with some well-known and very long running issues surrounding them, a kind of moving backdrop to every daily story everywhere they go. Awhile back, Gary Tuchman asked Trump supporters whether he's ongoing issues affect their view of him. Today, we talked to -- well, he talked to Hillary Clinton supporters about hers.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GARY TUCHMAN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: For anybody coming to see Hillary Clinton in Reno, Nevada, there was no escaping the issues that have complicated her candidacy.
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKERS: We're not with her. We're not with her.
TUCHMAN: A small but loud group of Trump supporters made sure of that. But it only strengthened the resolve of many of the Clinton supporters.
JAKKI FORD, CLINTON SUPPORTER: She's withstood all of the punishment, you know, put upon her for the last 30 years and I support her strongly. I believe in strong, smart women.
TUCHMAN: The continuing Clinton campaign controversies, the e-mails, the Clinton Foundation. Among these strong supporters the overwhelming consensus, she did nothing wrong.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's very annoying the way they go on and on and none of it's true.
JOHN CLEVENGER, CLINTON SUPPORTER: I think they're looking for something. I don't really think there's anything there. And I'm not worried about it.
TUCHMAN: But even if there is no fire, whose fault is the smoke? These supporters are more flexible about that question.
ALAN SANCHEZ, CLINTON SUPPORTER: We're all humans. We make mistakes. And she's made some mistakes. She's not the perfect person but we're not all perfect.
TUCHMAN: Some even acknowledge their trust was a bit shaken.
ROD SUMPTER: Those of us that educate ourselves with regards to Hillary Clinton and all of her efforts over the years can overcome that distrust because we know who she truly is.
CLINTON: Thank you.
TUCHMAN: One thing Hillary Clinton is right now is someone who avoids news conferences. For almost nine months. These supporters tend not to fault her for that.
CHRISTINE CREMU, CLINTON SUPPORTER: The lack of the press conferences doesn't speak to me as fear. It speaks to me as smarts.
TUCHMAN: In what way?
CREMU: Because she wants to keep her environment controlled. That's a smart politician, in my view.
TUCHMAN: Would that be considered maybe a paranoid politician?
CREMU: Depends on your view. Perhaps.
TUCHMAN: That's not yours?
CREMU: No, of course not.
TUCHMAN: And we had one final question for these Clinton supporters.
CLINTON: He says he wants to make America great again but more and more it seems as though his real message seems to be make America hate again.
TUCHMAN: A final question on the day Hillary Clinton skewered Trump for, "A steady stream of bigotry."
Donald Trump has just called Hillary Clinton a "bigot." When you hear that, what do you think?
WILLIAM BARNES, CLINTON SUPPORTER: I think he's talking about Donald Trump, not about Hillary Clinton. If I ever saw a bigot, it's Donald Trump.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Gary Tuchman joins us now. Gary, did you talk to anyone who expressed concern to you that Hillary Clinton could lose the election because some of these controversies?
TUCHMAN: Anderson, I talked to a lot of Hillary Clinton supporters today and if any of them thought she could lose solely based on the controversies, they weren't admitting it. There was a lot of optimism among Hillary Clinton supporters because of the polling since the Democratic convention. However, there were a number of people I talked to today who feel the election could be much closer than they think it should be because of the controversies. Anderson.
COOPER: All right, Gary Tuchman. Gary, thanks very much.
Back with the panel. When it comes to, Paul, attacks on the Clinton Foundation, I talked to Secretary Clinton, she called in last night, she said there's smoke and no fire. But, I mean, isn't just the appearance of conflict is in that -- something that kind of feeds into the untrustworthy narrative about her, the concerns that some voters have? BEGALA: I don't think there's an appearance. I think that there's -- look, she's had mistakes, she's had problems. I think the e-mail thing was a mistake and I said it at the very first day it broke. I said everybody in the government have got e-mail.
This foundation does such good work.
[21:20:00] In the whole wide world, there's 17 million people who get antiretroviral drugs to keep them alive with AIDS in the whole world. 11.5 of them get them because of the Clinton Foundation. The majority of children who get ARV drugs keep them alive with AIDS. Get them through the Clinton Foundation. This is a terrific charity.
By the way, Mr. Trump himself gave over $100,000 and he was asked ...
COOPER: But certainly in some voter's minds when they hear, you know, some rich person who gets to have a meeting with Secretary Clinton through the foundation ...
BEGALA: The A.P. found I think 85 people who got meetings including Elie Weisel, Muhammad Yunus and other Nobel Peace Prize winners, Melinda Gates. 85 ...
COOPER: Yeah, but there were some rich people with like visa issues or ...
BEGALA: But so what? People should get their visas taken care of. But there were 7,000 donors and 85 got meetings. There's a lot of paying without any playing.
COOPER: I just don't know how many who get their visas fixed Secretary Clinton herself.
BEGALA: I don't think she fixed visas herself. I think what they do -- the press loves to do this. Well, she took money from the Saudis, right? But she didn't. She was busy working but the foundation did. Well, of course, they take money from the rich and they use it to help the poor. This offends Republicans who think the world should work the other way around. Donald Trump, for example, takes from the poor and gives to himself.
COOPER: Andre?
ANDRE BAUER, TRUMP SUPPORTER: They want to know that they don't have to donate, whether they donate 10 percent to the church, whether they donate 10 percent to the Clinton Foundation, they want to know that they can see their president. And they see foreign governments that have no interest in most of these issues giving money to the Clinton Foundation. They see a bunch of Clintons that say, we left the White House, so we were destitute. They brought in $250 million personally. Magical in 13 years, their net worth's over $110 million now? There's a quid pro quo here. Make no mistake about it. If the Democrats weren't scared about it, she wouldn't have that press conference today.
BEGALA: Are you more troubled by Trump University or the Clinton Foundation?
BAUER: I'm more troubled about a Clinton Foundation ...
BEGALA: Are you really?
BAUER: She was secretary of state and she was seeing people that directly gave to her foundation.
BEGALA: I got a bridge to sell you, brother.
COOPER: One at a time.
BAUER: There was no national security at risk.
BEGALA: This case fraud case is pending against the Trump University.
BASIL SMIKLE, CLINTON SUPPORTER: Exactly what I'm including here in the state of New York with the attorney general and I have (inaudible) disclosure trouble with the Clinton Foundation. And I can attest the work that they are doing ...
BAUER: Nobody debates the work. Everybody ...
SMIKLE: No, no, no.
(CROSSTALK)
SMIKLE: Hold on. Hold on. There is real work that this foundation is doing.
BAUER: Nobody's questioning that.
SMIKLE: There are a lot of people questioning that because there are Trump supporters that are saying that this foundation is a fraud.
COOPER: Does it weaken Donald Trump and his ability to go after it, the fact that he gave more than $100,000 to the Clinton Foundation? So if it was pay to play, was he paying to play?
HUGHES: I think it would have weakened it if he would have actually met with her and said I also demand a meeting with it. I think he ...
COOPER: Well, he did. He had her come to the wedding.
HUGHES: Not for $100,000.
(CROSSTALK)
COOPER: No, no, no. He said he paid money to her and she came to his wedding.
HUGHES: Right. So that just shows what a puppet master he can be. But I think (inaudible). Let's look at Loria University, let's look at Haiti, let's look at the $30 million that was raised in Haiti. You have protesters still today outside of the Clinton Global Initiative. I think you're going to hear more of this that they were promised buildings and businesses and ports and none of that came through. There's a lot of problems with the Clinton Foundation with that money that actually went through the people donated that never got to the ground.
COOPER: But I guess my question on the donation from Trump is, if this was a shady system, what does it say about him that he's donating and I guess knowledgeably taking part ...
HUGHES: Because there was some work that was good to it. And obviously, they were friends. And I'm sure he wrote that check out of good faith for his friendship with Hillary Clinton.
TARA SETMAYER, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Sure he did. He said that he was a businessman and that he would cave money for access.
HUGHES: Would you ever want the person signing the front of the check or the back of the check ...
(CROSSTALK)
HUGHES: Because right now you have Donald Trump signing the check, giving the money. She's the one accepting it.
SETMAYER: Just being intellectually honest about it, that's all, with the Donald Trump stuff. Yes, there are problems with the Clinton Foundation ...
HUGHES: Did you just accuse me of lying?
SETMAYER: I just said be intellectually honest about what happened with Trump and Hillary Clinton and his support of her. Not only her, Chuck Schumer and a lots of other liberals and progressives that he supported which are completely anathema to what we as conservatives believe in. He financed those people. So, let's be intellectually honest about it.
(CROSSTALK)
COOPER: Guys, guys, no one's listening. If -- I mean, when you talk over each other, I don't mean no one's listening to you guys, but when you talk over each other nobody can hear you. That's my point. Sorry. That was my inside voice.
But you know, when the RNC says to the Clinton Foundation and to Secretary Clinton, why is it OK -- why are you going to stop taking foreign donations once you're president but why was it OK for you to take foreign donations -- for the foundation to take foreign donations when you were secretary of state?
BEGALA: Right. They're trying to respond to the pressure. I think it's a shame. I think that they set up very strict rules when Hillary became secretary of state, right? President Obama and his (inaudible) put in a whole bunch of rules ...
COOPER: But even that, they served fudged on some of the foreign donations. They didn't report them as much as they can. [21:25:00] BEGALA: Again, they take from the rich and help the poor. I'm scared to death about some of the cut-backs.
(CROSSTALK)
BAUER: They don't travel on their dime except to go to foundation work. In Southwest Airlines doesn't go to Central Africa. I'm sorry.
SETMAYER: But they go the state -- they go to Long Island to the Hamptons, though. And the Clintons have no problem taking their private plane to the Hamptons.
BEGALA: Look, this is just a -- it's a horrible story. Look, when I was working for Bill Clinton against President Bush Sr., he set up the points of light foundation. Every single day inside the White House, he promoted that he had a point of light every single day. We never looked into it, nor did the press. The next campaign we ran against Bob Dole. He runs the U.S. Senate, his wife runs the American Red Cross. Lots of people donate there. We never looked into it, neither did the press. The press has this thing where they get with the Republicans -- oh, I'm serious. It's a double standard that the Clintons have to face.
COOPER: I will point out today, I have both been accused by Donald Trump of backing Hillary Clinton and now also ...
BEGALA: Well, I'm just saying nobody did the stories about the Bushes and Doles. They're honorable people.
COOPER: As long as I'm attacked by all sides I'm happy. We're going to take a break. We're all going to talk to each other during the break and get it out of our systems.
More of "360" exclusive interview with Donald Trump. Ahead, he made a lot of news. Bring it altogether for you, next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[21:30:18] COOPER: Hey, welcome back. Donald Trump is sticking by his allegation that Hillary Clinton is a bigot, something he unveiled last night. I asked him about it today. You'll hear that in a moment.
We also spoke about where he exactly stands on illegal immigrants, particularly the 11 million or so undocumented immigrants who are in this country, many of whom have not broken the law, what would he do. Would he actually deport them as he said during the primary? Two days ago, he said, "There could certainly be a softening of his immigration policy." Now he's using another word, the exact opposite.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: One of the big things you talked about during the primaries, we had interviews about this, you talked about it during debates, 11 million undocumented immigrants in this country, they got to go. The good ones can come back in, you said, they could put a door in the wall. The good ones can come back in. It's going to be done humanely, you said, there'll be a deportation force. That's no longer it seems, there have been some contradictory statements lately but that seems it's no longer your policy. You said on Hannity, you used the word softening, even last night on Hannity you talked about ...
TRUMP: Well, I don't think it's a softening. I think it's ...
COOPER: But 11 million people are no longer going to be deported.
TRUMP: I've had people say it's a heartening, actually.
COOPER: But 11 million who have not committed crime ...
TRUMP: No, no.
COOPER: There's going to be a path to legalization, is that right?
TRUMP: You know it's a process. You can't take 11 million at one time and just say boom, you're gone. We have to find where these people are. Most people don't even know -- nobody even knows if it's 11. It could be 30 and it could be five. Nobody knows what the number is. I will tell you what we know. Let me explain.
COOPER: Will they be deported?
TRUMP: Let me tell you what. We know the bad ones. We know where they are, who they are, we know the drug cartel people, we know the gangs and the heads of the gangs and the gang members. Those people are gone. That's a huge number. No, it's not.
COOPER: But that's Jeb Bush's policy. I mean ...
TRUMP: I don't know anything about Jeb Bush. He wasn't building a wall. Jeb Bush wasn't building a wall. Jeb Bush wasn't making strong borders. And I'm not knocking Jeb bush but I was with him for a long time.
COOPER: Right. But he was mocked for saying that look, you can't deport 11 million people. Now it seems like, I know you're not really focusing ...
TRUMP: First I want to see what's going to happen. We're going to deport many people, many, many people.
COOPER: The vast majority ...
TRUMP: The bad ones.
COOPER: ... of 11 million are not criminals.
TRUMP: Well, we don't know them. We're going to find out who they are. We have crime all over ...
COOPER: If they haven't committed a crime, is there going to be a path to legalization? I'm taking about citizenship.
TRUMP: No. There is no path to legalization ...
COOPER: You talked about pay back taxes on Hannity.
TRUMP: ... unless people leaves the country -- well, when they come back in, if they come back in, then they can start paying taxes.
COOPER: So they still have to ...
TRUMP: But there is no path to legalization unless they leave the country and come back.
COOPER: So that means of the 11 million who are here, even if they haven't committed a crime ...
TRUMP: But you don't know -- again, you keep saying 11 million. You don't know what the numbers, you know, millions of people ...
COOPER: However many. That's the estimate.
TRUMP: ... and using the existing laws of our country, using the existing laws, millions of people are deported every year.
COOPER: Right.
TRUMP: You know that, right? You know, people don't talk about that. It's Obama. They don't talk about that.
COOPER: Right.
TRUMP: But you have a lot of people being deported. We're going to do that vigorously. We're going to go with the laws that are existing. But we're going to have a very strong border. And we're not going to have people pouring back in. And when these people, the drug lords and all of these guys that are thrown out, they're not coming back into the country.
COOPER: So, if you haven't committed a crime and you've been here for 15 years and you have a family here, you have a job here, will you be deported?
TRUMP: We're going to see what happens once we strengthen up our border. But there's no legalization. There's no amnesty. And if somebody wants to go legalization route, what they'll do is they'll go, leave the country, hopefully come back in and then we can talk.
COOPER: You called last night Hillary Clinton a bigot. Previously, you called her policies bigoted. You've directly called her a bigot.
TRUMP: Well, she is a bigot. Because you look at what's happening to the inner cities, you look at what's happening to African-Americans and Hispanics in this country where she talks all the time, she's talking, look at the vets where she said the vets are being treated essentially just fine, that it's over exaggerated what's happening to the vets not so long ago.
COOPER: But how is she bigoted? Bigoted is having hatred toward a particular group.
TRUMP: Well, because she's selling them down the tubes, because she's not doing anything for those communities. She talks a good game.
COOPER: So, you're saying she has hatred or ...
TRUMP: Her policies are bigoted because she knows they're not going to work.
COOPER: But you're saying she is personally bigoted.
TRUMP: Well, she is. Of course she is. Her policies -- they're her policies. She's comes out with a policies and others that believe like she does also, but she came out with policies over the years. This is over the years. Long time. She's totally bigoted.
COOPER: Have you always thought she was bigoted, though? I mean you ...
TRUMP: Honestly, I never thought of it. I never thought -- as a business person, I never thought of it. I got along with all politicians.
Anderson, as you know ...
COOPER: But I mean, she had a history of working with African- Americans ...
TRUMP: Working, but not doing the job. And I'm now bringing it out for the first time.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: And joining us now is CNN chief political correspondent Dana Bash, CNN and Sirius XM radio host Michael Smerconish and CNN political commentator and "New Yorker" Washington correspondent Ryan Lizza.
[21:35:03] It's interesting, DANA, do you -- I'm still not clear on what Donald Trump has in store or wants to do and I'm not sure he or his campaign know what they want to do ...
DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Exactly.
COOPER: ... with the non-criminal millions of people who have lived here for years, whether they have to leave or what.
BASH: I think you're exactly right. And it was pretty clear that Donald Trump is not fully formed and he's kind of, you know, I mean, it's beyond a trial balloon. I mean, he's almost having like public therapy sessions with, you know, with reporters like you who are talking to him about it, trying to figure out exactly how to get there. In his defense, this is really hard.
COOPER: Sure. BASH: I mean, there's a reason why this issue has split open the Republican Party for more than a decade since George W. Bush tried to tackle it again and got smacked down by the conservatives in his own party.
Now, but again, this is something that he put on the table during the campaign. He said so many times that the only reason immigration was an issue is because he brought it up and he took such a hard line on it. So, you know, he set the bar and now he's trying to figure out where he wants to be based on his own bar.
COOPER: Yeah. And Michael, I mean, to Dana's point, it is a really tough issue but Donald Trump was clear and explicit on it early on in the primary season and there were a lot of other folks, Republicans, on that stage, you know, Kasich and others, Jeb Bush, who's saying look, you can't deport 11 million people. I mean, you're going to get there, you're going to get to that point where you realize this is just -- it just not going to happen.
MICHAEL SMERCONISH, "SMERCONISH" HOST: It is a complicated issue, but, Anderson, it's not like you asked him to name the leader of a third world nation and all of a sudden, you caught him cold. This is the primary tenet of his campaign and it was frankly incoherent to listen to that entire interview and to understand by the end of it, well, what then is the policy?
It sounds to me like he has given up on mass deportation and while you made reference to Jeb bush, because I think there are some shades of Jeb Bush in what he's now saying, I was thinking of Barack Obama. I mean, did you notice his reference to President Obama and he actually gave backhanded credit to President Obama ...
COOPER: Yeah. It's the second time ...
SMERCONISH: ... for deportations that do take place.
COOPER: It's actually the second time he's done that. He did that the first time I noticed, it was a couple of nights ago on Bill O'Reilly's program over on Fox.
SMERCONISH: Right. So the point is the more I hear what he's saying, the more he sounds like what President Obama was seeking to do in the executive orders when he was saying look, we can't uproot people who have kept their noses clean and are part of families where someone in the family unit is an American citizen. He'll never acknowledge that he's come to that conclusion but that's where I think he is.
COOPER: Ryan, where do you think he is and how do you think Republican voters, you know, who responded very strongly obviously during the primary to his tough talk of 11 million, they got to go, we'll do it humanely, deportation force, good ones can come back?
RYAN LIZZA, THE NEW YORKER WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: I mean, it's a little ridiculous for me to sort of speculate about where his policy is. We should, as Michael points out, we should just have a clear policy at this point 14 months into the campaign on his signature issue.
Well, what it sounds like he's sort of roped, you know, sort of groping his way towards is what, you know, in 2007 during the immigration debate was called touch-back. Touch-back amnesty. So rather than Trump having the famous deportation force that he called for in the primary, it sounds like in the interview with you, Anderson, he was saying yes, we'll continue the Obama policy of deporting criminals and people, undocumented immigrants who everyone agrees should not be in this country for one reason or another, but if they go back to their home country, they might -- and this is where I'm speculating a bit, this is where the touch-back amnesty policy that's more thought out by some Republicans in the Senate comes into play, they might qualify for a special visa to come back on an expedited basis. And obviously, he did not say that but that's sort of the closest policy that is out there that he has sort of -- that he is at now.
COOPER: Dana?
BASH: No, but when you look at the policy, that he started with, back in the interviews that you did and I did a year ago, that was his policy. It was effectively touch-back. He did say everybody's got to go and then we can let the good ones back in. So it did seem like he circled back around to what you said tonight but just with a softer gentler tone.
COOPER: And Michael, I mean, what does this say about the idea of Donald Trump still Trump? His new campaign manager has clearly stated that she's not want him name calling but now he's going after, you know, Hillary Clinton calling her a bigot, perhaps in reaction to, you know, the speech that was announced she was going to be giving today and that she did give today. But you know, going after folks on other morning shows.
SMERCONISH: Well, I think there are shades of the Donald Trump we've seen throughout the course of this campaign, and then every once in awhile, you get a sign of a Donald Trump that is making some effort toward pivoting for a general election.
[21:40:08] I will simply say that bigot to me, I mean, that's incendiary. That's the bomb. You better drop that word and be able to back it up. And you pressed him. And by the end of your exchange, he was using as a synonym lazy for bigot. Well, lazy and bigot don't mean the same thing.
COOPER: Michael Smerconish, Dana Bash, Ryan Lizza, thanks very much.
Just ahead, breaking news in central Italy. Four regions under state of emergency tonight as that search for earthquake survivors grows even more desperate.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: More breaking news tonight. Italy's government has declared a state of emergency in four regions struck by that powerful earthquake yesterday. Tonight, the search for survivors is growing more desperate by the minute. The death toll has risen to at least 250. More than 360 people are injured. Thousands of rescue workers are searching rubble as time is running out and major aftershocks rock the area.
Our Atika Shubert has more tonight on the devastation.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ATIKA SHUBERT, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The village of Sant'Angelo has been reduced to rubble.
[21:45:00] Its cobblestone streets and piazza covered in debris. When we arrived, soldiers have salvaged the church bell but no one has here anymore.
Aftershocks keep residents from returning and most of the villagers 300 residents have survived, but a mother and child were killed, crushed in their bed.
It's incredibly eerie walking through the rubble of this tiny village of Sant'Angelo. I want to point this out. This bed sheet here, you can see it knotted to the top, tied together. I think residents inside may have used this to try and come down because, as you can see, the doors are -- they're stuck because the walls collapsed around them and there was no way for people to come out this way so survivors may have tried to come out here.
And you get a real sense of just how horrific this was by the scenes here. Whole walls sheared off. And you can see inside the kitchens and the living rooms just as they were at the moment the earthquake struck.
As you walk through the rubble here, we step over doors, these twisted pipes windows that have sheared off.
But this really shocked us. What we're standing on top of now, it's actually a car that has been crumpled by the rubble of the home that's fallen on top of it.
At the village green, a tent camp is being built to house hundreds from Sant'Angelo and neighboring villages. Survivors rest in the shade, still in shock.
This grandmother tells us there is no hope. Too many people dead and Amatrice doesn't exist anymore. Amatrice has disappeared. There are so many dead, so many children.
Now, the village of Sant'Angelo is one of the places where tent camps are based and this tent camp can house several hundred people.
Now, I actually spoke to several teenagers that were right here in this playground when the earthquake struck at 3:00 a.m. that was lucky because they were able to help many of the elderly residents who were trapped inside their homes and they set up the first aid camp here. In that time, the camp has grown and I want to show you a little bit here. Many of the people from the neighboring towns and villages are coming here now. It's lunchtime, they're getting food, water, whatever medical help they need, but also importantly, electricity. They're able to plug their phones in to keep in touch with their families and tell them that they're safe.
Here, they are safe but stunned by the destruction and loss all around them.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: It's incredible to see. Atika, I understand there were more aftershocks today. How are they affecting the ongoing rescue efforts?
SHUBERT: Yeah. In fact we felt one in Sant'Angelo. We were just next to one of those houses where the wall had fallen out. It's this deep rumbling from the earth. And while we were there, we could literally hear the other houses that were still standing sort of falling further apart. So it's really dangerous for a lot of those search teams that are in the rubble at that moment. Not only does it undo their work but, of course, the remaining house may collapse on them and this is why so many residents are keeping away at this point, until the aftershocks subside a little bit. But it is probably the number one concern for search teams here and they have to be really careful when they're going through that rubble. Anderson.
COOPER: Just horrible. Atika Shubert, thank you so much.
Just ahead, as Iraqi forces prepare for major battle to retake Mosul from ISIS, they're getting help from resistance fighters inside the city in hiding. They do their work in secret at great risk to themselves. We'll take you there.
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[21:52:20] COOPER: The Iraqi military has regained control of the key town in northern Iraq. It's one more step in the advance toward Mosul, Iraq's second largest city, where the biggest yet against ISIS is looming. ISIS has controlled Mosul for more than two years now. Day by day, Iraqi forces are moving closer, while inside the city, a covert battle is already underway.
Arwa Damon reports.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ARWA DAMON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Operating deep within the shadows of ISIS territory in Mosul, it's a network so secretive even its own members do not know each other's identities.
The letter M spray painted on Mosul's walls, M for Muqawama, the resistance. The message to ISIS, we are here, we are among you. The Mosul Battalions watch for weaknesses in ISIS defenses, carrying out hit-and-run operations or waiting for a moment to strike isolated targets like this checkpoint on the outskirts of the city. This man, Abu Ali, is one of their liaisons.
How did the Mosul Battalions even manage to initially organize themselves?
ABU ALI, MOSUL BATTALIONS LIAISON (Through Translation): It started at two friends who trust each other and they would arrange to target ISIS in a particular point.
DAMON: The same happened elsewhere. And by the end of 2014, the Mosul Battalions had formed. Their weapons are basic, what they found and hid in the city or what they snatched from ISIS.
ALI (Through Translation): The roadside bombs they used, they would steal from ISIS. ISIS puts bombs in certain areas and those who have previous military experience would go and steal those bombs and place them where they target ISIS.
DAMON: They operate in two-to-three man cells, independent of one another. No cell knows specifically of another. No fighter knows the name of more than two others.
Abu Ali calls a man, he says, is with the battalion in Mosul. He's speaking from an orchard just outside of the city. Talking on the phone is punishable by death.
ALI (Through Translation): We carry out assassinations, sniper operations against senior ISIS members. We target the houses they live in.
DAMON: The distorted voice in this video says they assassinated an ISIS fighter. The images then show what they say is the dead man's I.D., pistol and suicide belt.
And Abu Ali says they are providing through intermediaries, intelligence and coordinates to the coalition.
Here's the aftermath of a strike, they say, was based on their information.
[21:55:00] And they are waiting for what they call "Zero Hour," distributing leaflets warning ISIS, its end is coming. They are ready, ready for the day the Iraqi army breaches the city and they rally the people to rise.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DAMON: Well, Anderson, they're not the only resistance organization that currently exists within Mosul. And they're also not the only group that is waiting for this so-called "Zero Hour", that moment when the Iraqi security forces and other armed groups do manage to enter the city of Mosul itself in that street-to-street fighting does begin.
There's another group that calls itself the Peace Battalions. Now, their main goal is to mobilize during zero hour to protect the operation and prevent the kind of widespread looting and chaos that we saw taking place in Baghdad in 2003 following the U.S.-led invasion.
There is this recognition amongst many Mosul residents and people who are already involved that we have been talking to that they need to mitigate the consequences of the battle for this city because it's not just about driving out ISIS. It's about mitigating civilian casualties. It's about mitigating actual destruction to the city itself, Anderson.
COOPER: Arwa Damon. Arwa, thank you very much. We'll be right back.
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[22:00:04] COOPER: And that does it for us tonight. Thanks for watching.
"CNN TONIGHT" with Don Lemon starts now.
