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Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees
U.S. Coronavirus Death Toll Tops 98,000; Cases Rising In 18 States, Falling In 10, Holding Steady In 22 States; White House Announces New Travel Restrictions On Brazil, Now Second To The U.S. In The Number Of Confirmed Cases; Hope And Caution In Vaccine Hunt. Aired 8-9p ET
Aired May 25, 2020 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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WOLF BLITZER, CNN HOST: Rest in peace and may their memories be a blessing. I'm Wolf Blitzer, thanks very much for watching. Anderson Cooper starts right now.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: Good evening. This Memorial Day was in many ways a study in contrast, perhaps more than ever because in today's traditional Memorial Day mix of official remembrances for those who died serving this country in the armed forces in parties marking the unofficial start of summer, there were a contrast within contrasts as the coronavirus death toll approaches 100,000 Americans killed.
The President's today at Arlington National Cemetery, the man running against him former Vice President Joe Biden at a veteran's memorial in Delaware. One wearing a mask, one not. Contrasting signals or perhaps contrasting priorities. As for the Vietnam memorial with the names of 58,000 service members killed over the 19 years of that conflict, two contrasting traditions.
Remembering the dead but preserving life. A virtual ceremony was held online so that those who survived the war might also survive this. Contrasting signs as well in how the Commander-in-Chief chose to conduct himself in his moment as in this moment as a self-described wartime President.
Today at Fort McHenry in Maryland, reading prepared remarks he sounded like any other President on any other Memorial Day.
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DONALD J. TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: As one nation, we mourned alongside every single family that has lost loved ones including the families of our great veterans. Together, we will vanquish the virus and America will rise from this crisis to new and even greater heights.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Well, that was at five past 12 in Maryland. At 2:34 on Twitter, the President called Pennsylvania Congressman and a marine core veteran Conor Lamb, 'an American fraud.' Over the weekend in tweets and retweets President mocked the looks of the weight of three prominent women. He flung other insults as well which don't bear repeating.
He continued pushing a baseless conspiracy theory about the death of the young woman who work for Joe Scarborough back when he was U.S. Congress man and he played golf, the very thing he attacked President Obama for during the Ebola outbreak.
If the President is still believed, there is a war under way against this virus, he clearly now sees it is every state for itself. We learned that the administration's latest plan at testing continues to largely put the burden on individual states.
Experts say voicing doubts the executive director of the Association of Public Health Laboratories told The New York Times that when it comes to obtaining the supplies needed to do that testing which has been a huge problem already as you know said "you can't leave it up to the states to do it for themselves, this is not the hunger games."
Let's hope not. Then again, the President as you know has already weighed in quite clearly on this subject, setting the tone as far back as March 13.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: Dr. Fauci said earlier this week that the lag in testing was in fact a failing. Do you take responsibility for that and when can you guarantee that every single American who needs a test will be able to have a test? what's the date of that?
TRUMP: Yes. No, I don't take responsibility at all because we were given a set of circumstances and we were given rules, regulations and specifications from a different time and we're now in very, very strong shape.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Well, keep in mind as back when he said that it was hard to figure out whether he was merely ducking accountability in retrospect or also going forward. Well, today the answer seems clear. The President's leaving responsibility to the states while also tweeting that credit for any success belongs to him.
Meantime he's not telling the truth about conditions in those states, tweeting yesterday, "Cases, numbers and deaths are going down all over the country." Well, in fact sadly according data from Johns Hopkins University new cases are going down in just 10 states. They're rising in 18 and holding steady in 22.
In other words in 40 out of 50 states coronavirus infections are not declining. Now it would be good to report tonight that they are but that sadly is not so. New deaths are declining slightly. The blue dotted line there is the 5-day moving average however because weekend numbers tend to be under-reported and corrected upward later and this is a 3-day weekend, it's hard to draw any conclusions yet much less definitive ones as the President has. And you won't hear this President or his administration reminding
those states where cases arising that under the CDC guidelines and the guidelines that the President and the coronavirus task force once bent back, that was just a couple weeks ago, they shouldn't be reopening.
He's doing the opposite though. In fact tweeting this morning "Transition to greatness. Get ready. It is already happening." And that type of language when set against what nearly every health official says including ones on his own task force is creating the final holiday contrast.
Side by side two different Americas this holiday weekend when it comes to coronavirus. In one you see empty beaches, people keeping their distance, wearing masks, being cautious. In the other even in states where cases are not dropping, there are people packed together, throwing caution and perhaps viral particles to the wind.
And in the middle of all this, the President has been threatening to move the August Republican convention out of Charlotte, North Carolina if the state's governor does not in the President's words, "guarantee we will be allowed full attendance in the arena."
He's talking about thousands of people from all 50 states packed into an arena in the middle of a pandemic.
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For more now on the state of the country, this Memorial Day both from a public health and political perspective, we're joined by CNN chief political analyst Gloria Borger. Also CNN Medical analyst Dr. Celine Gounder. She's an epidemiologist, an infectious disease specialist and co-host of the podcast titled, 'Simply Enough Epidemic.'
So Dr. Gounder, what do you make of the Trump administration's doubling down on their strategy of putting responsibility of testing on the states? Do you think this will I mean, turn into the 'Hunger Games' scenario with states competing for resources and supplies yet again?
DR. CELINE GOUNDER, INFECTIOUS DISEASE SPECIALIST AND EPIDEMIOLOGIST: Anderson, I think sadly the federal strategy is no strategy and an abdication of responsibility to the states. We've already seen a 'Hunger Games,' 'Lord of the flies' kind of scenario previously, involving ventilators and other personal protective equipment.
And I think we're going to see this continue. You know, I think there just needs to be more leadership and more role-modeling from the federal level which we're just not getting right now.
COOPER: Gloria, given all we saw and heard from the President, this weekend, I'm wondering what message he's sending to Americans about the virus and - and where we stand in the fight against it because it is this strange, double - double speak, I mean, that you know, he talked about you know others playing both sides, whatever that meant.
But he's seems to be making both sides of the argument. On the one hand through his coronavirus task force, they put out these guidelines about how states should reopen but then he's under cutting it immediately and continually and that seems to be where his focus is now.
GLORIA BORGER, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, he's under cutting it and then not paying attention to it and then when he orders states who have reservations about churches opening to reopen say I'm going to override you, which by the way he has no power to do.
The message is things are normal, everything is back to normal. I'm out here playing golf. I'm not wearing a mask. Never mind the warnings from Dr. Hahn at the FDA or Dr. Birx that everybody has to be careful now, really careful about the way we reopen and the way we behave on this holiday weekend.
The President - the President's message was I'm in charge, things are great, things are back to normal. The economy is going to get popping pretty soon so not to worry. We have it all under control which gives people, I think a certain permission to say well, if he's not wearing a mask, I don't have to wear a mask. If he's out there playing golf not wearing a mask, not worrying about the pandemic, well, OK, fine, that's good enough by me and that is a mixed message, Anderson.
COOPER: Dr. Gounder, what about the testing standards laid out in this report, the testing 300,000 people a day focused on those likely to have the virus is sufficient for containment. Does that make sense to you because I remember Bill Gates being on our Town hall, a couple weeks ago talking about the you know, the 200,000 tests a day figure that the administration was using.
And he essentially said that's a phony number because it takes days for many of those tests to get results and by that point, the person very possibly has interacted with any number of people and potentially spread the virus. So what is the point of that that that old test.
GOUNDER: Well, that number is nowhere near enough so it's just some pretty quick math. If you say if you want to test everybody who comes into the hospital which is what we're doing right now, we call it rule out when you come into the hospital and make sure you don't have Covid so that's already about 100,000 tests a day.
Then you talk about testing everybody who's in a nursing home, both the residents and the staff maybe twice a month so every incubation period so that's another 150,000 tests a day and then you have people working in meat packing plants, people who are front line workers, doctors, nurses, EMTs, not to mention people who have symptoms and people who have been exposed.
So those numbers are more like 1 million tests a day, Anderson.
COOPER: A million tests a day but I mean is that - is that a realistic number choose that one can actually do and get results in a timely manner?
GOUNDER: Well, I think with the advent of what are called antigen test so this is the third kind of test that has come out, which is really a test for the proteins of the virus. This is a much quicker, simpler, cheaper test that does promise to help us scale this up. It's not as sensitive as the PCR test which were the first tests to come out, the test for the genetic material.
But if you're talking about repeat testing people on a fairly frequent basis, you know once a month, twice a month, depending on the setting, that probably is sufficient but we need to be scaling up that capacity dramatically right now.
COOPER: Gloria, it does seem and I mean it's all something to think about but it does seem like there is such a clear, obvious political calculation by this White House, by this President on battling this virus. I mean, that's - it seems like it is being seen through political terms. I mean obviously even just his focus on churches reopening, I mean you know, he has not had a track record throughout his life of being a big attender of churches.
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And you know, obviously everybody wants religious institutions to be able to open and function and people be able express their faith and gather together but it's the idea that you know he is the person pushing this when it's really not up to him. It's just one of the more obvious political kind of considerations he's making.
BORGER: Sure. Sure, it is Anderson. Throughout all of this, we've seen a President who wants to take responsibility when it's good for him such as saying, I think churches need to reopen. This is very important. He said churches are essential and he wants that to reopen when it comes to taking responsibility for testing as we were just talking about, for getting enough slobs for testing, from the beginning of this getting enough PPE, et cetera, he's like well, that's up to the states.
It's up to the states and so in terms of reopening, if the states do it well, he'll take some credit for that but the governors are the ones there left saying wait a minute, it is as you said - you used the phrase before, the Hunger Games.
It is the Hunger Games because we have to compete against each other and why didn't you use the Defense Production Act from day one to help us. So we didn't have to compete. New York doesn't have to compete against Oklahoma or what other state or so the Governor of Maryland didn't have to go to South Korea to get to get what he wanted.
So it is a President who says wait a minute, your responsibility when it could fail but my responsibility when he's giving the political message which is I'm a cheerleader. Things are going to get better. Things are great. Here I am out on the golf course. I personally don't want to wear a mask. It's a personal decision so you know that's up to you.
So it is - it is clearly political for this person who by the way, was tweeting liberate states with Democratic governors who were worried about reopening too quickly. If that isn't political, I don't know what is. COOPER: Dr. Gounder, when you see you know, the states reopening,
there's - there's numbers - there's several states that reopened that have not seen on uptick in cases which you know, people look at and say well, look, you know that stayed. There hasn't been - obviously you know we're looking at the numbers cases rising in 18 states, falling in 10, holding steady in 22 states.
What do you say to people who say well, look, the economic damage being done is worse than - than the medical issues?
GOUNDER: Well, I think one issue that has not been clearly communicated to the American public Anderson is why testing is so important here. So it's actually two-fold, it's both for public health and for the economy. So from a public health perspective, we want to know who's infected right now and we want to separate them.
We want to isolate them and offer them treatment and we want to separate them from people who are not infected so we can break chains of transmission so we don't have ongoing transmission and secondly, if you think about it, you know do you want to go get your hair cut or see the dentist when your dentist or hairdresser might have Covid whereas if we had more regular testing of everybody to something that Paul Romer, the former chief economist of the World Bank has proposed.
The idea that I would see my dentist and I know that he's been tested in the past two weeks. That would make me feel a lot more confident about going out in public and so testing is really key to protecting the public's health and the economy.
COOPER: That was a picture from the Ozarks we were showing there. Gloria, Dr. Gounder, thank you so much. Our next guest, a Silicon Valley executive has been writing extensively and very influentially about the pandemic. His writing has really been essential reading for me and for many others. His latest effort can be seen on YouTube posted today.
Compares how tightly countries have locked themselves down with how well they've done in slowing their outbreaks. His Tomas Pueyo and we're glad to have him back on the program. Tomas, great to see you. You've described what's happening as a hammer and a dance. What happens if some states continue to you know, observe strict guidelines or at least stricter compared to what other states are doing, which is the hammer while others start what you call the dance as we saw this weekend, a lot of dancing has begun.
TOMAS PUEYO, VP, GROWTH, COURSE HERO: That only works if travelers going into the state that is doing all the right measures can be quarantined so Alaska, Hawaii for example, have been doing that and enforcing it. Everybody that goes into these states are into a 2-week - get into a 2-week quarantine.
Many other states have rules like this but they're not enforcing them. As a result, a state for example, like California that has been very aggressive on the hammer and wants to dance but is getting a lot of people from outside and they're not being quarantined and all of these efforts have been worthless. [20:15:00]
COOPER: How do you see 'big picture' what's happening right now in the United States?
PUEYO: We are seeing one of the only places in the world where the highest level of sovereignty decided not to use its power. That hasn't happened in nearly any other country in the world. As a result, obviously as we were just saying, the states are left to fend for themselves but they don't have all the powers that other counties have and one of the key ones that other companies have is the one of closing their borders.
And so this is something that there are some precedents for and I think at these points, given that some states don't care as much as others, I think that the states is that really care about should consider that especially just quarantining all the travelers that are coming into the - into the states.
COOPER: Is that even possible I mean for a state like New York or you know, I don't know for any state? Is it really possible to close their borders and quarantine anybody who comes in?
PUEYO: It is definitely possible and some obviously states have it easier than others. For example, California, all off its neighbors have very few cases so as a result for California, it's really easy. It seemed like in Hawaii or Alaska that they might just want to quarantine people coming from airports.
Obviously for states like New York it's harder but we've done this in Europe and Germany for example, Czechoslovakia, all these countries, they're very, very interconnected, they have a lot of people going back and forth from the states and for a few weeks, they just closed the borders.
COOPER: You know part of the reason for locking down was to give the health care system, sort of time to space out the cases and not be overwhelmed and not collapse. Have - has it - has that actually worked. So moving forward we're seeing all these places reopening. If there is a ground swell now of cases, what happens?
PUEYO: Yes so there's really two goals, right? One of them is to prevent them from happening in the future and I think we're in a better position now because at least, we're alert. We know what's going on. We're testing much more and if there's massive outbreaks, we can see that coming.
So I think that is that we're in a better position in that regard. The problem that we have is that going for that strategy, which is mitigation, my end is what we call herd immunity in my - it means that we don't go for a lot of people not being - being infected all the time but over time they actually accumulate and accumulate and by the time 65 percent of the population has been infected, you have in a country like the U.S., a million - two million people dead. So that's the issue that states like California, like Hawaii, like
Idaho, like Alaska want to avoid. If we can crush the curve and really get the cases to a minimum until we have a vaccine or a treatment, we can reopen economy safely without all that death and sickness burden.
COOPER: If there is - I mean if the vaccine you know, takes longer than people think, herd immunity, how long would it take to get herd immunity and yes -
PUEYO: Yes, no, I think the best country this is Sweden. Like Sweden since the very beginning said we're going to be cautious but we're not going to close a lot of places. They closed some schools and they asked people to stay home and what they said in the beginning was there's no way to stop this and by May, around 25 to 50 percent of our population will have caught this anyway.
Well, it turns out that they did a test of antibodies the way we - the ones that we were talking about before around the beginning of May. They were expecting again 25-50 percent of people infected. They found 7 percent and so that means that they are 10 times, like we need to multiply by 10 the number of infected and then in order get to herd immunity.
And so it's not - it's not going to be fast. It's going to take - take a long time and during that time people are scared to go out but they don't want to consume and economy is penalized and instead of taking the hit early on aggressively and then once the cases are controlled, opening up with much more confidence.
COOPER: And obviously the death toll in Sweden is great much greater than any of the neighboring states around it.
PUEYO: That's right.
COOPER: You've also written about seeding and spreading. Can you explain what you mean by that?
PUEYO: Yes so the two keys there, right is you don't want first - if you're doing hammer and dance, you're controlling the cases in your state, right? First, you don't want people to come into the state and seed new cases and then after that you don't want them to spread into the - into the state.
So there are some rules that you can follow to do that like for example for travelers, if you quarantine them for two weeks, all of them, then certainly your seeding is much lighter and the spreading and we now have a good understanding of what works and what doesn't.
For example, you were talking about churches and it's really not that minor. It's not that church is open or closed. The issue with churches is that a lot of the spread of the coronavirus is perfect for churches.
[20:20:00]
It spreads really well in places that are contained, there are a lot of people who are together for a long amount of time, singing, talking and touching each other, right? So that's why there's been so many outbreaks in churches and the solution should not be open or closed.
In fact, it's not, right? A lot of churches are open remotely and there are many ways that we could do to open - open them safely. For example we could be doing these outdoors. We could be wearing masks. We could me making sure that everybody keeps a six feet apart. These measures would dramatically reduce the contagion in churches but these rules of thumb are also valid for all the economy.
We can using these insights, change the economy, change how businesses are set up so that we can repair the economy more safely.
COOPER: Tomas Pueyo, I appreciated all you're doing and all you're writing about. Thank you very much. We have breaking news now from the White House in the wake of new numbers out from Brazil. More than 800 fatalities just in the last 24 hours according to the Government of Brazil and nearly 12000 new cases, second only to the U.S.
Our Jeremy Diamond is at the White House for us with the latest. So Jeremey, the administration is now moving up their travel restrictions on Brazil.
JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: That's right Anderson. Just yesterday the President has announced these new travel restrictions. Barring those foreign nationals who have been to Brazil in the last two weeks from entering the United States. That was supposed to go into effect on Thursday at the end of the day.
Instead they are now moving that date up to tomorrow, at the end of the day, tomorrow. This of course comes Anderson, as there has been an explosion of cases of coronavirus in Brazil. It is now - had the second most reported cases in the world. We should note that President Trump has you know floated these possible restrictions last week but prior to that Anderson, he had repeatedly praised the Brazilian President Bolsonaro for his handling of the coronavirus pandemic despite the fact that Bolsonaro has been one of those leaders who has repeatedly downplayed the threat of this virus and really poopooed the notion of these lockdowns and - and really focused more on the economic impact than on the health impact in his country.
But none the less, this seems to suggest Anderson, that there is a growing concern at the White House about this and we should note that the CDC director Robert Redfield just a couple weeks ago, he said that if there is indeed a second wave of this virus where a second peak of this virus in the fall in the winter in the United States that it likely will be triggered in part at least by growing cases in the southern hemisphere.
And so this is certainly part of the concern at the White House and among the coronavirus task force and the White House, we should note Anderson has left open the possibility of additional travel restrictions on other countries in Latin America. Anderson.
COOPER: Jeremy Diamond. Jeremey, thanks very much. Up next what it looks like in one Alabama town where social distancing is dropping even as cases arising and the Mayor of Montgomery, Alabama who says that his hospitals are "still at a crisis level."
Later both hope and fresh doubts in the search for a vaccine. Breaking news on more human trials and breaking news report on the race for a vaccine. Also caution from another respected team of researchers who now say there's a 50-50 or a 50 percent chance that they get no results at all. I'll be right back.
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COOPER: We've been talking tonight about the President's celebration of this holiday weekend as a turning point toward in his push to what he calls a transition to greatness meaning a resurgence of the economy. Looking at the numbers though in states such as Alabama, experts worry about a transition to something worse.
That red line is the moving average of new cases in the states, it's moving there in the wrong direction. In a moment, we'll be joined by the Mayor of Montgomery, Alabama. First, we have Gary Tuchman reporting from Gulf Shores.
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GARY TUCHMAN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Coronavirus cases in Alabama are going the wrong way. They are trending up but the state is now wide open for business. Social distancing is the state's rule but that effort has often been an exercise in futility at restaurants and bars on the beach towns of Alabama, this Memorial Day weekend as people come back to a party.
At this restaurant and bar in Gulf Shores, Alabama many wonder why it took this long to open.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm just here just to have fun and meet everybody and just very cool you know.
TUCHMAN: Across the street, the beach is jammed. Groups are supposed to be six feet away from each other. Police work to enforce that. Groups are also ordered to only consist of people who live in the same household. There is no active effort to enforce that.
Bailey Car is 21. She just graduated from college.
BAILEY CAR: Everybody's got to go somehow. You know, what I mean?
TUCHMAN: You mean die?
CAR: Yes but I like in a way, I mean, I don't want to die but I mean if that's what God has in store for my life, that's OK.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My family has the same mindset as me and we kind of just agreed that if we get it, we get it. We're going to handle it as a family and just get over it because that's what family does. TUCHMAN: When it comes to coronavirus, medical experts will tell you
they're very concerned about the immediate future here in Alabama and the speech though, your eyes and ears will tell you something much different.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Just like the flu, right?
TUCHMAN: It's not just like the flu. It's far more contagious.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, I know but people die from the flu also so to me, that's the way I look at it.
TUCHMAN: Do you have any concerns about being at the beach with so many people with your children?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, not at all.
TUCHMAN: How come you're not worried all that someone could be sick and walk by and get you sick?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Because there's enough wind and air and it's going to clear it out of here.
TUCHMAN: Wind and air don't clear it away. There's no proof of anything like that. There's wind and air everywhere in this world.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. No, I'm not worried about it at all.
TUCHMAN: And then there is the issue of masks. We saw a grand total of 0 being worn on the beach. Do you ever wear a mask?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No. My wife and kids do. I don't.
TUCHMAN: How come you don't?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I just feel comfortable. I'm going to be OK.
TUCHMAN: But the mask isn't to keep you OK. It's to keep your wife and kids OK. To protect them.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I get it. I get it. The survival rate is so high.
TUCHMAN: You're not worried about them getting sick. You think they're going to live.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're all going to get sick of something eventually.
TUCHMAN: President Trump is part of this conversation.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I mean if he's not wearing a mask, I'm not going to wear a mask. If he's not worried, I'm not worried.
TUCHMAN: The President?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes sir. TUCHMAN: Speaking of masks, Alabama has mandated them for restaurants
and bar workers. Some restaurants have them but at others where we arrived unannounced and shot cell phone video, employees were not wearing masks. The manager here telling us after our visit he has now given masks to his employees with instructions to wear them.
[20:30:00]
At this other restaurants where we were, where we also saw no employees wearing masks, the manager told us they will continue not wearing them because she wants it that way despite it violating the state order.
Traffic is very heavy in Alabama's beach towns. All nearby hotels sold out as the holiday weekend begin. Alabama is back in business. Covid surge or not.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When it's not time to go, it's just not time to go.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Gary joins us now. So who enforces violations of the state reopening orders?
TUCHMAN: I understand the police departments throughout the state of Alabama have that right to make those kind of arrests. I talked just a short time ago to the police department here in Gulf Shores. They say they've made no arrests over this Memorial Day weekend. I talked to one of the police officers on the beach. He said they've issued several warnings.
Now at this time it's not the most pleasant thing to make these kind of arrests but you don't have to be slew to find these restaurants around here with waiters and bartenders with no masks. They're all over the place as a matter of fact I got my lunch at a place just like that earlier today. Anderson.
COOPER: Gary, thank you. Stay safe. Steven Reed is the mayor of Montgomery, Alabama. He joins us now. Mayor Reed, thanks so much for being with us. You've said that Alabama's easing of restrictions has given people, a false sense of security. I guess when you see the beaches of Alabama crowded with people, you know no social distancing, not wearing masks, are you concerned?
MAYOR STEVEN REED, MONTGOMERY, ALABAMA: Absolutely. It gives me a pause to think about what we may see the next week or two when people get back to their communities from vacation down in the Gulf coast, it's problematic that people believe this.
It's problematic for me that people are cavalier about their behavior. It's problematic to me that we have not done a better job at the state and national level of explaining the seriousness of this virus to not only the people directly but also to their friends, their family and certainly our first responders and medical personnel who are also participating in this. COOPER: It's difficult for I mean, any public official. You know,
obviously you want your community to economically be thriving and you want the people in your community to be safe and - and healthy. There are an awful lot of people who are just you know, tired of lockdowns, of being at home and you know see the President not wearing a mask and just think whatever's going to happen is going to happen.
How do you - what do you say to that?
REED: Well, what we're trying to do in Montgomery is to make sure people understand, we have not won this battle yet. We want people to stay at home. We want them to wear masks when out in public. We've been strongly encouraging that for now a couple of months.
And we're also asking them to adhere to the CDC guidelines on social distancing but we also understand that people are seeing stories of recovery. We're working with our small business community to make sure they get back up and going. We have a fund together, Recover Together Fund here in this community to help our small business owners.
But we don't want to do that at the expense of the health of the community. We have to continue taking these precautions and we're trying to over communicate, not only with business leaders but our faith leaders as well as the hospital administrators, who have told me that this is a crisis.
This is something they have not seen in decades in this region and they are very concerned not only for the community but also the staff so you know, they have an emotionally and physically spend staff right now and that has a domino effect not only here in Montgomery but throughout this region and we just have to continue to sound the alarm where that's concerned.
COOPER: Do you - I mean in Montgomery, how do you - do you have power to you know enforce I mean, who - who's - who's in charge of enforcing the mandates from the - from the governor? Is it city by city? Is it up to the local officials?
REED: By and large, it's city by city, or county by county except for maybe two counties out of 67 in the state. We have that here when the governor lifted the shelter-in-place order. That really made a big impact. I think that gave people a false sense of security of where we stood in this battle against the pandemic.
So we're continuing to try to explain to people where we are right now and what we're doing is we're trying to partner with our community leaders, we're trying to partner with people, social media influencers to let everyone know where we stand and we still have a little bit ways to go to beat this virus.
We're just not there yet and we have to get people to understand that or we're going to have a second wave that's going to cost us much more than it already has.
[20:35:00] COOPER: Yes, I know you've been very vocal about the lack of ICU beds you know Intensive Care Unit beds. In Montgomery, I know at one point you were down to one ICU bed left. Where do you stand with that now? How are your hospitals?
REED: We've - we've seen marginal improvement where we have probably 7 percent of ICU beds. The hospitals believe that this is manageable but is not sustainable and that's what they're saying with me is that, they are concerned about PPEs, they are concerned about their beds. They are concerned about ICUs as well as just the overall resources that are dwindling.
So we aren't at the cliff yet but we can see it and so we're just trying to make sure people understand. We want to slow things down before we get too close.
COOPER: Yes Steven Reed, I appreciate your time tonight. Thank you very much. Wish you the best.
REED: Always a pleasure.
COOPER: Up next, breaking news on a potential coronavirus vaccine in the works. The news comes as a group of researchers at Oxford University say that declining rates of infection may hinder the ability of scientists everywhere to successfully develop the vaccine. We'll explain that one ahead.
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[20:40:00]
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COOPER: Breaking news report on the race for vaccine. A tenth company now says it has entered human trial portion of the testing process. Maryland based Novavax says it expects preliminary safety and effectiveness results by July where a different team in the United Kingdom is advising caution when it comes to news about vaccines.
Researchers at Oxford university are past a small clinical testing phase, they're now trying to test thousands and they say they face a hurdle that may at first sound like a positive, a declining infection rate.
The project leader told a British newspaper this weekend that it's more difficult to test a vaccine with fewer people getting sick. "There's a 50 percent chance that we get no results at all." For more on the hunt for vaccine, I'm joined by Art Caplan, senior medical analyst and director of the Division of Medical Ethics at NYU Langone Medical Center and Ian Haydon, a trial participant for vaccine being developed by the company Moderna.
Art, when you hear that this Oxford's coronavirus vaccine trials, a 50 percent chance of showing no results at all. This after the amount of time and money that's been put behind it, is that a setback? How do you see this? ARTHUR CAPLAN, DIRECTOR, DIVISION OF MEDICAL ETHICS, NYU LANGONE
MEDICAL CENTER: It's a big setback Anderson but it's predictable in some ways because you're trying to test the vaccine as the virus ebbs and flows. We know that in some parts of the world, it's rising like Brazil parts.
In other places it's diminishing like the U.K. so when you start out to test it and give it to people, you're presuming the virus will be there to infect them so you can figure out if the vaccine works but if it starts to get tamped down by behavior change or just ebbs and flows naturally, you're usually at risk of wasting time.
And while the President likes to talk about work speed in developing vaccines, I think we might have to think about some alternative research trial designs in order to get answers.
COOPER: And first of all, how have you been feeling since - since we last spoke because you're - you're participating in a study from Moderna for the vaccine. What stage are you at?
IAN HAYDON, VACCINE TRIAL PARTICIPANT: That's right yes so I've received both doses of the vaccine at this point and I feel totally normal. I feel like I did before this whole thing started that is to say I'm in good health so at this point, I'm just - just waiting and being watched by the clinic.
COOPER: And - and do you get in - I mean do you have a sense of how long this may take for your -
HAYDON: Unfortunately - yes - unfortunately you know as a participant I'm not given any information about the trial any sooner than anyone else so recently Moderna was out with a press release showing some preliminary data from my study and seeing that press release online was the first I learned about, I know a bit about my own body, about the fact that I have developed antibodies as a result of this vaccination.
It's unclear yet whether those antibodies are going to be useful but you know, I'm sort of like everyone else just waiting eagerly for this kind of news.
COOPER: Right. If memory serves me, the small and medium doses of the vaccine were the most effective with the least side effects and they're going to continue with those and not with a higher dose. Did you get a higher dose?
HAYDON: I did. Yes, I was among the first people to receive the highest dose.
COOPER: Did you get a lot of side effects?
HAYDON: I did have a bit of a rough go of things for 24 hours there. Fever, nausea, things like that. That passed after about a day. I'm happy to see that Moderna is discontinuing the highest dose at this point. I think that's good news over all but there's still a lot to be hopeful about for this candidate vaccine moving forward. Of course still it'll take months till we know if it's really working.
COOPER: Art, you talked about different methods. I mean can you explain the difference between a you know a clinical study like Ian is participating in and what's known as challenge study, which I think is what you might have been referring to?
CAPLAN: Yes, I was Anderson. So in the standard study that Ian is in you get the safety records and then you've got a jump to like 10,000 people and you need a big number because you're waiting for nature to infect people who you've given the vaccine to see what's going to happen.
So it can be a long haul. Months, maybe a year. There is another design it's ethnically contentious but it's one I would defend and that is to vaccinate the people and then maybe deliberately infect maybe 400 to 500 of them with the virus. Pick people who are young, who are facing pretty remote risk of death or hospitalization and the reason you do that, Anderson, is that does speed up the ability to get good hard data quickly. You're not waiting a year. You can get an answer in month.
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So obviously controversial because you would only take volunteers, people who knew that there was no rescue for them if they were to get really, really sick from getting infected but I think it's something we ought to be thinking about.
COOPER: And Art, I mean I guess the ethics behind your - you look at the ethical issues all the time, is the fact that just the global nature of this, the death toll, does that tip the balance in a case like this for you?
CAPLAN: Yes. I think it does. We're up to 100,000 a year. Every month we delay trying to see if the standard method of getting an answer gives us a vaccine that can work, it means hundreds thousands more deaths worldwide while we're waiting.
Remember Anderson, the risk factor for a young person, 20 to 32 who might volunteer here is about the same as donating a kidney to try and rescue someone else. So it's not a wild risk they're taking, it's something would you tolerate and again, you only take volunteers, you only take people who certainly understood what was going on.
But I think if we're going to get you know, hopefully this vaccine, maybe won't be this first one, maybe it will be the second one, maybe it will be the third one we try but we need speed. The world basically is going to have to vaccinate its way out of this pandemic ultimately and I think the standard way of doing it is just too slow.
COOPER: Ian, I know, you and I've spoken about this before. Where - what do you think about the challenge study idea.
HAYDON: Yes. It's something I've given a lot of thought to. I've written an Op-Ed on it. Basically I'm not looking to rush into something like that but it's something I am open to and I've written that basically the conditions have to be right and there are several conditions. It has to make sense scientifically.
Of course it's risky but as Dr. Caplan mentioned for people like me, we're pretty much the lowest risk cohort. There's something like 99 percent chance that I wouldn't even need to be hospitalized if I were to catch Covid so that's one you know, that certainly lowers the risk a bit.
It would be better if we had medications and interventions but you know at the end of the day, if the conclusion is that a challenge study really could speed things up, that there was scientific justification to do it and it could you know, perhaps prevent a second wave. It is something that I would be open to.
COOPER: Ian Haydon, we've talked before and I just think it's amazing what you've done thus far and thank you and I thank you for talking about it and I appreciate it. And Art, thank you, really important discussion to have. Art Caplan, thank you.
CAPLAN: Thank you.
COOPER: Up next, we continue to remember those who have fallen to the coronavirus. A police officer who dedicated his life to his family, his community. We'll talk about him when we return.
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COOPER: We mentioned at the top of the broadcast that any day now, this nation will have suffered 100,000 deaths due to coronavirus. It is a staggering figure and one, we can only begin to really try to wrap our minds around. It's more than just a big number. Each death obviously represents a family that's been changed forever and as often as possible in this program we want to remember those who've been lost.
Tonight our Randi Kaye brings us the story of New Jersey police officer Charles Roberts. This police chief said of him in a statement to CNN, "There was no other like him. An officer ready to aid any who needed him."
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RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Charles Edward Roberts had a zest for life and a twinkle in his eye. His wife of nearly 18 years, Alice Roberts calls him the ultimate people person with a generosity that was unmatched.
ALICE ROBERTS, WIFE OF OFFICER CHARLES ROBERTS: He was just an incredibly generous, giving, selfless, empathetic person.
KAYE: Rob as everyone called him had a knack for making people feel safe, a perfect fit for his job as a police officer for the last 20 years in Glenridge, New Jersey. There was nothing Rob wouldn't do for his community.
ALICE ROBERTS: When the crossing guard calls out sick because many of them are senior citizens, you know he would be the one crossing the children.
KAYE: Rob made family, a priority too. The father of three, coached his kids' teams. And together they went hiking and fishing to Mets games and concerts. This is video rob teaching his youngest daughter Natalie to ride a bike.
ROBERTS: Going out in all by yourself. You did it. Go Natty go.
ALICE ROBERTS: He would just. - just be constantly incredibly positive towards everyone. You know you got this, you did it, a constant source of encouragement.
KAYE: Then in April everything changed. Rob had been self-isolating upstairs in their home after seven of his co-workers were diagnosed with coronavirus. Rob had bad headaches and had lost his appetite and sense of taste but he didn't have any fever. Still on April 21 just as the health care worker was telling Rob over the phone that he had tested positive for the virus, he collapsed and stopped breathing.
The health care worker on the other end of the line called 911 and Rob's fellow officers raced to his home. We found him collapsed on the floor. I was frozen on the stairs and his co-worker said oh, he has a faint pulse and I think he radioed, everything's kind of a blur after that but he radioed for additional back up and he's shortly after, he started CPR.
I just remember getting my kids to the basement.
KAYE: For three weeks, doctors desperately tried to save Rob. His sister also waited for answers.
KARA BRENNAN, SISTER OF OFFICER CHARLES ROBERTS: It's - it is heart wrenching. I have three children who absolutely adored and looked up to him and we were - it was like, we couldn't breathe for three weeks just waiting for information updates.
KAYE: Around town, residents put up blue hearts to support the officer. They also held a vigil on the family's front lawn but Rob never regained consciousness. The day before he died, doctors allowed Alice inside her husband's hospital room. We facetimed with the children from the bed side on May 10, Mother's day.
We just basically told him he wasn't alone. We played music for him. We told him it was OK to go.
KAYE: Rob died May 11. He was just 45 years old. Doctors told the family rob had surprisingly low potassium levels which stopped his heart. His wife says Rob's brain never recovered from lack of oxygen.
[20:55:00] Alice says she and her children are grateful for the time they had with him.
ALICE ROBERTS: We're not angry. We're just grateful. We just wish we had more time and you always think you're going to have more time. It's just so quiet without him. It's just - It's like an energy has been sucked out. And it's just a big gaping hole.
KAYE: Randi Kaye, CNN, West Palm Beach Florida.
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COOPER: What a man and what a family. Our thoughts with the entire Roberts family tonight and all those who have been suffering due to the coronavirus. We'll be right back.
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