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Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees

Derek Chauvin Murder Trial Continues; E.R. Doctor Says Hypoxia More Likely Cause Of George Floyd's Cardiac Arrest; Baseball Balks At Georgia Voting Law; Republicans Decry "Cancel Culture" While Encouraging People To Boycott Baseball; HBO Filmmaker Uncovers Potential Identity Of Individual Behind QAnon, On Camera; Michigan Sees Biggest One-Day Rise In Almost Four Months; Gaetz: I Have Never, Ever Paid For Sex. Aired 8-9p ET

Aired April 05, 2021 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: And then last, a vaccination card that he pulled out of his jersey. He had it on him. So of course the vault and the card went viral.

He later tweeted: "Go get vaccinated, everyone." Well, officials, of course use verbal gymnastics to get the vaccination message across. Evan took that to a whole new level.

Thanks for joining us. Anderson starts now.

[20:00:20]

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: Good evening. Republican lawmakers declared war on Major League Baseball after baseball moved the All-Star game from Atlanta over Georgia's new voting restrictions. That is just ahead, but we begin with important testimony in the trial of fired Minneapolis police officer, Derek Chauvin.

Taking the stand today, the doctor who tried, but could not save George Floyd's life and the Police Chief who told jurors that what Chauvin did to Floyd went against department policy, training, ethics and values.

CNN's Omar Jimenez joins us with our coverage.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

OMAR JIMENEZ, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice over): The start of week two of testimony and the current Minneapolis Police Chief takes the stand in the trial of Derek Chauvin, his former officer.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you have belief as to when this restraint -- the restraint on the ground that you've used should have stopped?

CHIEF MEDARIA ARRADONDO, MINNEAPOLIS POLICE DEPARTMENT: Once Mr. Floyd had stopped resisting and certainly, once he was in distress and trying to verbalize that, to continue to apply that level of force to a person, proned out, handcuffed behind their back. That that in no way, shape or form is anything that is by policy, is not part of our training, and it is certainly not part of our ethics or values. JIMENEZ (voice over): In late May, Chief Medaria Arradondo fired

Chauvin and the three other officers involved a day after the incident.

He wrote a letter, weeks later, reading in part: "Chauvin knew what he was doing and what happened to Mr. Floyd was murder."

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So is it your belief then that this particular form of restraint, if that's what you -- if that is what we will call it, in fact violates departmental policy?

ARRADONDO: I absolutely agree that violates our policy.

JIMENEZ (voice over): Then the defense asked questions as part of cross examination.

ERIC NELSON, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: The issue that you take with it is the length of time.

ARRADONDO: Counselor, there are a couple of issues: is the person a threat to the officers or others? What is the severity of the crime? Are you reevaluating and assessing the person's medical condition?

JIMENEZ (voice over): But while the police background was a focus Monday, so, too was the medical background. As the doctor who officially declared George Floyd dead took the stand.

DR. BRADFORD WANKHEDE LANGENFELD, EMERGENCY ROOM PHYSICIAN: Any amount of time that a patient spends in cardiac arrest without immediate CPR markedly decreases the chance of a good outcome. Approximately 10 to 15 percent decrease in survival for every minute that CPR is not administered.

JIMENEZ (voice over): By that testimony, Floyd's survivability would have decreased by roughly 50 percent. Prosecutors say Chauvin continued to kneel on Floyd's neck for nearly four minutes after he appeared to lose consciousness.

The doctor told prosecutors his leading theory on Floyd's cause of death was cardiac arrest by oxygen deficiency or asphyxia.

The defense has pointed to drugs found in Floyd's system as the primary cause of death.

NELSON: There are many things that cause hypoxia that would still be considered asphyxiation, agreed?

LANGENFELD: Correct.

NELSON: Specifically, fentanyl?

LANGENFELD: That's correct.

NELSON: How about methamphetamine?

LANGENFELD: It can. JIMENEZ (voice over): Monday's testimony marketing a shift from the

week one theme of what happened on May 25, 2020 to making the case for what Chauvin has pleaded not guilty to, second degree unintentional murder, third degree murder and second degree manslaughter.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: Omar Jimenez joins us now from outside the courthouse. So beyond what we saw on your report, there was another witness late in the day.

JIMENEZ: That's right, Anderson. The last witness to testify today was the Commander of the Training Division of the Minneapolis Police Department, and she was actually shown a picture of Derek Chauvin kneeling on the neck of George Floyd and she simply said, "I don't know what type of improvised restraint that is because we don't teach that."

And when you take her testimony within the context of everything that we have seen, it is noteworthy how many senior level current police officers within the Minneapolis Police Department have testified in this trial, many of them saying that Chauvin's actions do not line up with what they believe should have happened in this and it's a group that now includes the current Minneapolis Police Chief, Medaria Arradondo, who if you remember, fired these four officers involved within 48 hours of this happening.

As we are now in this week two of testimony shifts from basically defining what happened on May 25th, to now moving to what it all means and tomorrow morning, we'll be hearing from a brand new witness as again, we continue into this week two of testimony.

[20:05:13]

COOPER: Omar Jimenez, appreciate it. Omar, thanks.

Joining us now are CNN legal analyst, former Federal prosecutor, Laura Coates; criminal defense attorney, Mark O'Mara; also CNN law enforcement analyst, Charles Ramsey, former Police Commissioner in Philadelphia and former Chief the Washington, D.C. Metro Police Force.

Laura, how damaging to the defense was the testimony by the Police Chief?

LAURA COATES, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Extremely damaging. This comes after other officers, law enforcement officers who are all extending a 10- foot pole now showing to the jury that, look, an officer is entitled to use force, but there is a clear line in the sand, Anderson, for when it goes from reasonable use of force to now criminal assault.

And that line apparently seems to be where the training stops and of course, where there is no longer force being used to resist these officers.

This is the Chief of Police who is making the statement. He is somebody who has a lot of experience in law enforcement in Minneapolis, along with training. There is no way to undermine the fact that if he says it's not part of the training or the policies, combine that with other testimony, it is extremely damaging to the defense.

COOPER: Chief Ramsey, how unusual is it for a sitting Police Chief to testify against somebody who was one of his officers?

CHARLES RAMSEY, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Well, it is unusual as far as testifying in court. Usually, when you're testifying against one of your officers that you fired, or disciplined is in an arbitration hearing, which obviously is not televised.

So this is a very high profile case. It's being televised. He is been called as a witness. That doesn't happen very often.

I was a Police Chief for 17 years. I can recall maybe three, maybe four times I actually had to appear in court to testify against an officer.

COOPER: Mark, from a defense perspective, I'm wondering what he thought the impact of the Police Chief's testimony was and the defense, what it does to the defense's case?

MARK O'MARA, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: I really think it is devastating, as Laura said, because you now have the Chief of Police coming in and saying that was not sanctioned. That's not the way it should have been done. That's not the way we would have done it.

And when you have that type of information, the jury is looking to try and find out an excuse or a reason why Chauvin did what he did and now we have the cadence of this trial being the emotion of the moment with the video, the bystanders, and now we have law enforcement coming in and telling these jurors, that is not the way Chauvin should have acted. He has no justification for it.

And after all, that is the essence of the case and the defense is going to have to deal with that.

COOPER: Laura, we heard today from the doctor who pronounced George Floyd dead at the hospital. The prosecutor asked him if there's another name for death by oxygen deficiency, the doctor responded asphyxia. Does that bolster -- how much, I guess, does that bolster the prosecution's case?

COATES: You are right to clarify your question because it honestly does buttress the prosecution's case here for this reason. Remember, the commonsense approach cannot be left behind. The idea of saying that somebody died because their heart stopped, and then using that to try to excuse criminal liability of the person who may have been a causal factor to why the heart stopped.

It's essentially setting up this idea of how we all expect to have this battle of the experts about what one autopsy said, or a medical examiner report or the family's use of an autopsy, et cetera. It's all about saying, it goes to the same issue here. Why did the heart stop? Not whether it did, we know it did, that's how human beings die, their hearts no longer operate, they no longer function.

So now, what caused it? And this idea of trying to figure out whether there's a substantial causal factor of the pressure not only on the knee -- on the neck of George Floyd, excuse me, but also the pressure on his body when he is in a prone position, handcuffed, unable to respirate fully for the chest to be able to expand.

It's all setting it up what we know to be the other part of this case, Anderson, not just whether it was reasonable force or excessive force, we know it was excessive now from the law enforcement testimony.

But now, whether that with a substantial causal factor in the death, that's where they're going. That is where the prosecution is heading us.

COOPER: Right. And Mark, it is clear, the defense is bringing in the -- any narcotics or potential influence of narcotics on the cause of death.

O'MARA: And it's exactly what they have to do. If you think about it, the defense's job in this case is to try and create or to set the seed for reasonable doubt in at least one of those jurors' minds, if not all 12.

And the way they're going to do that is say, there are alternative methods, alternative possibilities for why he passed, not just because of what Chauvin did, and that's why he mentioned things like asphyxia, and we know we're going to hear about the drugs and the combination of drugs and the fluid in his lung because the defense has to come up and try and show the jury that there is some other reason that he would have passed.

That's this whole excited delirium argument that we're going to hear a lot more about that we heard just the touch of so far. We're going to hear a lot of that, because that's an alternative given by many police or given to many police for actions where people pass, and it's going to be the essence of the defense in this case.

[20:10:25]

COOPER: Yes, Mark, at this point, do you think -- and we're in week two now of this trial -- and the defense, obviously is going to have their opportunity to present their case. Do you think they are already changing their potential defense? Or I mean, how does what they've heard so far impact what they themselves are going to try to present, do you think?

O'MARA: Well, we have to presume that they knew all of this was coming or most of this was coming. They had the opportunity for discovery. They had all the information.

I do think the defense needs to be a bit careful. Sowing those seeds of reasonable doubt is what defense attorneys do. But, you know, going at many of the witnesses from the EMT to the grandfather who testified, to some of those people, I think they need to be careful, because if you turn off this jury, if you lose your credibility with this jury as the defense attorney, it works against you, of course, but more importantly, it works against your client, and it needs to be real careful.

If they're going to focus on cause of death, focus on that and leave the periphery alone.

COOPER: Well, we also heard today from the police inspector who led the department's training as Omar told us. She testified Chauvin's knee on Floyd's neck was not consistent with training, combine that obviously with the testimony from the Police Chief, it's certainly, for the defense seems like a big hill for them to climb that this was something that was appropriate.

COATES: It's also insurmountable at this point. I mean, you also have -- remember, we have three other officers who are going to stand trial, but one of those officers was somebody who on the scene, Anderson, asked, shouldn't we move this person on to their side? This was somebody who was essentially a rookie compared to the tenure of Derek Chauvin, who tells you, of course, that the training must have been such that even a rookie officer knew.

Cut back to the other officers, including the most tenured law enforcement official in Minneapolis, Lieutenant Zimmerman who testified last week who all said that since that at least the 1985, he was able to understand that you had a compromised respiratory system, you could not breathe if you were in the prone position with handcuffs on.

They've known this day in and day out, year after year. The Police Chief talked about how you must have annual training to make sure that you have the muscle memory of logic, all of these things.

So it comes down to just one thing. Derek Chauvin according to the testimony, he obviously knew better. He was trained better. So why didn't he follow that training? Why didn't he do so?

If that question is on the tip of my tongue, it is lingering in the minds of jurors, which is exactly where you want to be when you're the prosecution.

COOPER: And Chief Ramsey, just, you know, what does it say to you that it was, as Laura said, a relative rookie who raised his voice and said, you know, shouldn't we put him on his side, even referencing, you know, something that he had assumed learned ever recently at the academy about somebody in distress?

RAMSEY: Well, I mean, not only the rookie, but everyone in the Minneapolis Police Department with the exception of Derek Chauvin know that that's not process, I mean, procedure. To keep a person in proposition like that, have your knee on their neck for extended periods of time like that, that is not in training anywhere in the United States.

So it is an uphill battle for him. I know, they're trying to nitpick now around was his knee an inch here or an inch there. I mean, you know, so he is cherry picking the video, right, when the paramedics get there. He may have probably shifted his position slightly.

What about the other nine minutes? I mean, we know what we're looking at here. And you know, he had his knee on the neck. Others have pressure on his back. He was in a prone position. I mean, that's just a recipe for disaster and that's exactly what happened.

COOPER: Chief Ramsey, Laura Coates, Mark O'Mara, appreciate it. Thank you.

More on the cause of death, a forensic scientist joins us to talk about that and the defense's attempt to cast doubt on the medical testimony which we saw today.

Later, the high heat at the nation's pastime, baseball, through Georgia in defense of the nation's life force, voting. That, and the political blowback ahead on 360.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:18:46]

COOPER: As we touched on with our legal law enforcement team, today's testimony in the Derek Chauvin trial only sharpened the central clash between prosecution and defense over the cause of death of George Floyd.

The prosecution is seeking to persuade jurors that what they see on the video is would killed George Floyd, nothing more. That view as you saw was bolstered by the doctor who treated Floyd.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JERRY BLACKWELL, PROSECUTOR: And Doctor, was your leading theory then for the cause of Mr. Floyd's cardiac arrest, oxygen deficiency?

LANGENFELD: That was one of the more likely possibilities I thought that at the time based on the information I had, it was more likely than the other possibilities.

BLACKWELL: And Doctor, is there another name for death by oxygen deficiency?

LANGENFELD: Asphyxia is a commonly understood term.

BLACKWELL: Thank you, Dr. Langenfeld.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: There's more to be learned, however than the ER physician can often uncover in the moment while struggling to stabilize a patient, which is why we're joined now by forensic scientist, Lawrence Kobilinsky of the John Jay College of Criminal Justice here in New York. Professor Kobilinsky, based on what you know about George Floyd's death, do you agree with the doctor's testimony that cardiac arrest likely occurred because of asphyxia?

[20:20:04]

LAWRENCE KOBILINSKY, PROFESSOR, JOHN JAY COLLEGE OF CRIMINAL JUSTICE: Yes, yes, absolutely. I think what the ER doctor found was a very elevated carbon dioxide level, which is an indication of respiratory distress, insufficient oxygen getting to the brain and all other parts of the body and that would lead to asystole, which means flatlining, the electrical activity was nil. And that's why defibrillation was not even applied, because you can't defibrillate somebody who's asystole.

So I think that after working on him for 30 minutes and ruling out various possibilities, he concluded that it was due to hypoxia, which is a result of asphyxia.

Asphyxia can come about for many different reasons and that really is the crux of the matter. And so that's where we have to answer the question is, what led to the hypoxia? Was it due to the positional asphyxia? Was it a compression asphyxia? Was the airway blocked? And that is resolved in the autopsy report.

COOPER: You, I believe, looked at the autopsy report, is that resolved?

KOBILINSKY: Well, the autopsy report, as you know, goes through the body from head to toe and it is this various abrasions and bruises to the face, to the shoulders, to the arms are described.

They also describe problems that were of natural cause. In other words, Mr. Floyd had coronary artery disease. There was a narrowing of the vessels. He had hypertension. He had an enlarged heart.

But you know, remember that a Medical Examiner also brings into the conclusion reports of the place and videotapes as well before any conclusion is reached.

So it does look like the Medical Examiner agrees that it is asphyxia, although that was not the term used. The Medical Examiner used an expression about being subdued restraint and neck compression and cardiopulmonary arrest, but could happen for various reasons.

So important in explaining the Medical Examiner's autopsy report to understand what happened to Mr. Floyd at the scene when the police were there trying to restrain him using neck compression, the positioning that they put him in, the handcuffs to the back, but that's as we said, it's a recipe for death.

COOPER: Right. Obviously, let me just say, the defense obviously, you know, cross examined the ER doctor who treated Mr. Floyd asking if drug use can cause hypoxia. He responded that fentanyl and methamphetamine could. Is that -- I mean, where does that -- how does that affect what may have happened?

KOBILINSKY: Well, that certainly is something the defense is very interested in because Mr. Floyd had a lethal dose of 11 nanograms per milliliter of blood. It would be lethal for most people. But of course, when you're a drug abuser and you're using fentanyl, which is a very potent drug, you build up a tolerance. And from the appearance of Mr. Floyd at Cup Foods, he appeared to be

breathing normally. He may have been a little, you know, walking a little bit oddly, but he was certainly alive and breathing. So he was tolerant.

Of course, you can overdose to an extent even with tolerance, it can cause death, but fentanyl causes respiratory dysfunction, it decreases respiration, it decreases the heart rate. It lowers blood pressure. It dilates blood vessels. But the main thing is it decreases respiration and can lead to hypoxia, and that's exactly what the defense wants to hear.

COOPER: Lawrence Kobilinsky, I appreciate your time. A lot still to be learned obviously there. Appreciate it.

There was more fallout today in the wake of Major League Baseball's decision to remove the All-Star game from Atlanta due to that new legislation in Georgia, the Democrats say restricts voting rights. Details on that when we continue.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:28:14]

COOPER: The Republican Governor of Texas was invited as elected officials routinely are to throw out the first pitch of this afternoon's home opener of the Texas Rangers, but Governor Greg Abbott declined and cited Major League Baseball's decision to remove its All- Star game from Atlanta, saying baseball has adopted what he called a false narrative about Georgia's new law, the Democrats claim restricts voting rights.

This, as Senate Republican Leader Mitch McConnell also assailed baseball's decision linking into corporate statements like the ones from Georgia based Delta Airlines and Coca-Cola, which also criticized the legislation.

McConnell calls such actions as part of the quote, "outraged industrial complex," all of which puts major American sport that usually avoids political controversy squarely in the middle of one.

I want to get perspective now from CNN national correspondent and anchor of "Inside Politics," John King and CNN political analyst, Toluse Olorunnipa, White House reporter for "The Washington Post."

So John, I know two things you're passionate about: sports and politics. You've been a political reporter and a Red Sox fan, I imagine for even longer than you've been a political reporter. So what do you make of this confrontation between America's pastime and this new law in Georgia?

JOHN KING, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: It's an evolution -- a continued evolution and an escalation of sports getting involved in something for years, Anderson, it deliberately avoided, which is politics. You've seen this back in 2017 when the NBA pulled the All-Star game

out of Charlotte because of the so-called quote-unquote "Bathroom Law" that it said penalized people who made the choice that they were transgender.

We've seen just in the past year or so, NASCAR getting involved as well about the Confederate flag. More and more, sports is a business, sports has a fan base. Sports respond to political pressure.

Many sports are also urban focused, which is where most Major League Baseball teams are. Baseball was late. I believe it was the last major sports organization to issue a statement after the George Floyd killing.

Then on its opening day last year in the COVID season, it put Black Lives Matter on the field and on the players' uniforms and the like.

Major League Baseball has made this choice, and again, it's part of this evolution and escalation that you're seeing where sports which for years just decided we don't do politics, more and more involved in social justice and other political movements.

[20:30:14]

COOPER: And Toluse, it is, it's an interesting time in corporate America, where companies are being asked to take positions on things which in past years, they really would have just tried to stay out of focusing obviously, on profits or pleasing as many people as possible.

TOLUSE OLORUNNIPA, WHITE HOUSE REPORTER, THE WASHINGTON POST: Yes, that's exactly right. The activists that are pushing against some of these bills realize that if you are going to make change, you have to hurt some of these lawmakers in their pocketbooks and their communities by having the tax revenue and the economic activity that would have come from a big event like an all-star game, having that taken out of Georgia. And now, some of these lawmakers are starting to respond.

So, a number of these corporations, sports league, leagues are feeling the pressure from their constituents, from their fan bases, from activists, essentially telling them that they have to take a stand, especially when it comes to specific issues of civil rights, racial justice, economic rights for minorities, that they can't be silent anymore. And I think that the killing of George Floyd last year really sparked even more of these corporations to take a stand.

And it really seems like there's no turning back at this point, because the activists have realized that this is the way to make change, because a lot of these lawmakers have not listened for several years to some of their cries. But they realize that if they are able to talk to some of these corporations to get them to make change, then you can see some of these sports leagues. And some of these lawmakers have to respond as a result.

COOPER: John, I mean there are still a number of states considering new voting laws. How likely do you think it is that this action by Major League Baseball and others coke delta and others will actually lead to other states backing off those where Democrats consider restrictive measures?

KING: I think the Democrats will certainly use it progressives, will use it in those states to say be careful where you go. Number one, we think this is wrong. But number two, consider the consequences. Look, timing is everything in politics. That's a cliche. But it's also true that we're having this conversation as the Derek Chauvin trial plays out, it was the killing of George Floyd that brought a lot of this to the bubbling point, if you will, has been festering a long time, but it brought the water to a boiling point.

So there will be people who say, think twice, three times. But Anderson will also be the flip side of that. A lot of Republicans and conservatives are on this quote, unquote, canceled culture movement, if you will. You mentioned Governor Abbott at the top of the conversation deciding forget it, I'm not going to come throughout the first pitch. So there will be some who tried to take advantage of the controversy to raise the quote unquote, canceled culture issues.

COOPER: And I mean Toluse, Republicans and corporate America haven't enjoyed a close relationship for a very long time. You have now someone like Mitch McConnell, who's enjoyed the financial support of many in the corporate world, lashing out against corporations taking a stand against these voting laws.

OLORUNNIPA: Yes, this is the outgrowth of former President Trump's presidency, he said that he was going to go against the elites and the corporations, even though he ended up giving them one of the biggest tax cuts in history. But he did campaign against them and said that he was for the working person, and he was going to fight for the working man and woman against the corporations and the elites.

And now you see other Republicans, including Mitch McConnell, including Marco Rubio, take that form of populism and try to use it to attack some of these corporations, which have been their political constituency for decades and decades.

So we are seeing a shift in the political atmosphere. And it is not clear where things go next, if these corporations starting to align more with Democrats who want to raise their taxes, or whether or not they stick with some of the conservatives who want to protect them from some of the progressive policies when it comes to economics.

But when it comes to social issues, it seems like the corporations are much more aligned with the left wing and some of the progressive causes when it comes to social justice, racial justice and equality. So, it really is a sort of a political hot potato with some of these corporations trying to decide where they're going to land.

KING: Yes. And John, one of the other things that the Minority Leader McConnell said in his broadside against corporations objections to Georgia law, he said, quote, a host of powerful people institutions apparently think they stand to benefit from parroting this big lie.

It's interesting that he is co-opting the phrase the big lie, which is normally used for the really big lie, which is the President Trump's big lie about the election.

KING: Mitch McConnell, whether you like him or not, is very calculating. He does not just choose his words willy nilly, if you will. He uses that on purpose to say, you know, because the Democrats and because the media have used the term big lie because Trump did perpetrate a big lie and he perpetrated it for months and it led to an insurrection in the Capitol.

Look, Mitch McConnell has a point, Republicans have a point in that some Democrats have exaggerated the impact of the Georgia law. Some Democrats, including the President of United States, Mr. Biden, have gotten some of the details wrong.

But they'll claim you said this old saying Anderson, if you see a turtle on a fence post that didn't get there by accident. We're not having this conversation by accident. Most of these laws in the state do restrict voting rights, and Republicans are pushing them.

[20:35:03]

So, there's there have been some exaggeration and hype about the Georgia law. But these conversations in more than 40 states are real

COOPER: John King, Toluse Olorunnipa, thank you so much. Appreciate it.

(voice-over): Has the identity of Q, the person behind the extremist ideology QAanon. Its attracted followers with its bizarre and false conspiracy theories as the -- has Q actually been discovered. Up next, I'll talk with the filmmaker behind a fascinating new HBO documentary examining QAnon. But why he's convinced he solved the puzzle.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: Over the weekend, HBO finished airing a documentary series called "Into The Storm," looking into the origins and the followers of QAnon the conspiracy laden ideology that's attracted believers not only in this country but around the world.

The leader of the bizarre online group is called simply Q and his identity has long been secret, but filmmaker Cullen Hoback the man behind the documentary seems convinced that he has solved the mystery. His evidence is this clip that aired during the series finale last night in which Hoback interviews Ron Watkins, the longtime administrator of the QAnon message board called 8kun.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CULLEN HOBACK, FILMMAKER: Ron hadn't just been participating me he research. It sounded like he was leading it.

RON WATKINS, QANON ADMINISTRATOR: Yes. So thinking about on it like, it's basically -- it was basically three years of intelligence training, teaching normies how to do intelligence work. It's basically what I was doing honestly before, but never as Q.

[20:40:15]

HOBACK: See that smile? Ron had slipped up. He knew it. And I knew it. And after three tireless years of cat and mouse, well --

WATKINS: (INAUDIBLE) I promise. Never was.

HOBACK: OK.

WATKINS: Because I'm not Q. There never was.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: And Cullen Hoback joins me now. It's such a pleasure to meet you. I really was so fascinated by your documentary, I mean, your access it's just -- it's incredible how much time and how deep you got into this. For those who may be confused as to why that moment was so shocking. Can you lay out briefly who this guy Ron Watkins is, what his role in the QAnon origin story as to why that revelation from him was so important.

HOBACK: Sure, yes. So, the person I'm talking to is Ron Watkins, a.k.a Code Monkey. He is someone who has been named in the Q, drops QAnon drops. So, there's a lot of lore around this character in the world of QAnon. He is also the admin of the site where Q posts.

So, you know, I had, I had spent years playing cat and mouse with this character. You know, I thought that it was possible that, you know, he would know more about Q than anyone else, because Q posts on his site. And I'd always been waiting for that moment, where Ron slips up.

And the first time it happened was a few months ago. And I think it happened as a result of the kind of super optimism where he would just gotten away with it for so long. He wasn't really watching his words. You can see in the clip that you just played, he actually breaks into a smile before I do, because he realized, I think what, what had just happened, and I think you can even kind of hear him muttering under his breath.

And I just remember when Ron said that, I looked over. Afterwards, I looked over at my camera person, or just like, he just admitted his Q. I couldn't, you know, my, for me, it was just a mind blowing.

COOPER: That's often one of those moments, we just pray that the camera person is actually rolling that there is like the record was on and that everything actually is been saved. You send the clip, you've been talking to Watkins and his dad, Jim, for years. You both are laughing what was going through your mind? I mean, did he say more about it later? I mean, did he I mean, he clearly, he's now he continues to deny he was Q, right?

HOBACK: Well, he'll always deny that he's Q, because I think he would be concerned about any of potential legal ramifications that might come with it. But I also think that deep down he has a wrong kind of wants to credit.

COOPER: Yes. HOBACK: And I and I saw this at various moments along the way, where I think he would kind of give me nudges, sort of hint that, yes, he's behind it, but he can't really say that he's fine.

COOPER: It's also so remarkable when, you know, you there's all these people out there who, for one reason or another for whatever in their lives has brought them to, you know, go down this rabbit hole, you know, believe that Q is, you know, early on that he was a member of the Trump administration that he was a high level intelligence official with this special magical Q clearance that, you know, he had access to.

And I mean, and all the things that Q predicted was going to happen, just never happened. And was continually proven wrong. And yet, these people still continued to believe and just came up with new explanations for why everything he said was wrong. The fact that it might be this guy, it, you know, of course, it's like somebody like this and not, you know, some intelligence official somewhere.

HOBACK: Well, I mean, Ron Watkins has all of the moment, right. He has a -- he's interested in quote unquote, red pilling the masses, which is kind of getting his worldview out to people. He doesn't like the mainstream media, and he was trying to build an audience. And I think to some extent, he and his father also are kind of interested in taking over the world.

So, you know it, it checks out. But I would say that there and you see this in the story that even the Ron is, I believe the linchpin in all of this, there is this broader network and over time as Q increased in power, who did see figures like General Flynn, you'll see another general who is seeding Intel with some of the Q tubers, these people who sort of preach the Word of Q on YouTube and make sense of it to their followers. And you see that this group of ex-military actors are leveraging Q and hijacking the narrative or their own ends.

[20:45:27]

COOPER: And so many of them are profiting off it. They're selling merchandise they're selling, you know, subscriptions or view you know, they're trying to gain viewers just like every, you know, teen influencer, you know, on Tik Tok, and everywhere else. It's just, it's extraordinary.

Cullen Hoback --

HOBACK: Sure, yes.

COOPER: -- it's a fascinating documentary. I hope a lot of people watch it. It's really, really, really great. Thank you so much.

HOBACK: Thank you.

COOPER (voice-over): Coming next, what life is like when post-COVID normal life is both inches and miles away? We'll take you where vaccinations are surging, but so is the virus.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:49:59]

COOPER: COVID vaccinations are up nationwide. More than 3 million doses a day for four days now. However, in a number of states case counts are spiking as well. Infectious disease experts blame the spread of COVID variants.

Today, the CDC said that one particularly virulent strain is now detected -- now been detected in all 50 states. Some experts and certainly not all believe there may be worse to come.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHAEL OLSTERHOLM, DIRECTOR, CIDRP: Just look at states like Michigan or Minnesota, where you have high levels of vaccination relative to the rest of the country. And already you're seeing the surge.

While vaccination is important, it is obviously a critical part of our long term game plan. We're not going to have enough vaccine at the way we're going into the arms of enough Americans over the course of the next six to 10 weeks with this surge, that we're going to stop it. It's just simply not going to happen.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: Miguel Marquez now has a look closer look at Michigan and when maybe the latest front line in the battle against COVID.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (on-camera): How are you?

(voice-over): Fred Romankewiz was on his way to get vaccinated.

FRED ROMANKEWIZ, DEVELOPED COVID-19 SYMPTOMS ON THE WAY TO GET VACCINATED: I was going there. And I didn't feel right.

MARQUEZ (voice-over): He got a COVID-19 test instead. It was positive.

(on-camera): You were right at the finish line.

ROMANKEWIZ: There was a lot of -- there's a lot of emotional baggage that went with that.

MARQUEZ (voice-over): He says he got it from his 19-year-old son Andy, his wife, Betsy was fully vaccinated with the Moderna vaccine. She too got COVID-19 with only minor symptoms. The virus hammered Fred 54- years-old and no underlying conditions.

ROMANKEWIZ: I felt like I went 10 rounds with Mike Tyson. I was absolutely physically exhausted. I mean, I felt like I had been beat up. I felt like I had been in a car accident. I mean, it was crazy.

MARQUEZ (voice-over): Tina Catron thinks her son's soccer club brought the coronavirus into her home.

TINA CATRON, BELIEVES SHE GOT COVID-19 FROM YOUTH SPORTS LEAGUE: Even though we were all masked up from the sidelines. Everyone's yelling.

MARQUEZ (voice-over): Her boys Levi and Jesse got it with no symptoms. Her husband Jason got a bad case. Hers was worse.

CATRON: They said yes, you have pneumonia. Because from COVID so going to admit you. And here I am.

MARQUEZ (on-camera): How surprised are you to be in this bed?

CATRON: Oh very shocked.

MARQUEZ (voice-over): The 44-year-old mother of two with no underlying conditions outdoorsy, active never sick and here to coronavirus guidelines never thought she would get COVID or that it would hit her this hard.

CATRON: It's weird. It's almost like you feel like you're suffocating a little bit. I don't know it's hard to explain but you get really lightheaded and you're just like whoo clammy.

MARQUEZ (voice-over): Two cases of thousands in the Wolverine state now in its third coronavirus surge.

MEREDITH HILL, MEDICAL DIRECTOR, EMERGENCY MEDICINE DEPT. SPARROW HOSPITAL: We're not to where we were back in November, December. But I would say that the rate of increase seems more drastic than it did back then.

MARQUEZ (voice-over): At Lansing Sparrow Health System. COVID-19 admissions have risen 600% in a month.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. So, we're trying to see where we can pull extra staff from.

MARQUEZ (voice-over): The hospital had disbanded its COVID incident command center with cases piling up. They've re established it.

JIM DOVER, PRESIDENT & CEO, SPARROW HEALTH SYSTEM: In December, we had a high of close to 150 patients. Right now we have 95. And at the rate it's going if it doesn't abate we'll be at 150 patients in 15 days.

MARQUEZ (on-camera): Fifteen days.

DOVER: Yes.

MARQUEZ (on-camera): And do you know where the top of the curve is?

DOVER: We do not know where the top of the curve is.

MARQUEZ (voice-over): Dr. Justin Skyrzynski specializes in caring for patients with COVID at Beaumont Health Royal Oak, part of the largest health care system in Michigan. COVID tests of some patients sent for DNA analysis indicate a worrying sign. Sharp increase in the new more contagious, possibly more lethal B117 variant.

JUSTIN SKYRZYNSKI, COVID-19 HOSPITALIST, BEAUMONT HEALTH: Right now the regular COVID test we do that's still just showing COVID, no COVID. But we do send a lot of those out to the state and we're seeing something like 40% of our patients now B117.

MARQUEZ (on-camera): Oh right?

SKYRZYNSKI: Yes, so big percent.

MARQUEZ (voice-over): As older Michiganders and those with underlying conditions get vaccinated hospitalizations for them have plummeted. Now, the hospitalized typically younger and healthier.

LYNDA MISRA, MEDICAL DIRECTOR, COVID-19 UNIT, BEAUMONT HEALTH: Each search has brought different challenges. And when we address them, we felt very strong that we had this disease under attack, but then we get a thrown a curveball.

MARQUEZ (voice-over): For healthcare workers an exhausting year, getting longer.

LINDSAY MUENCHEN, REGISTERED NURSE, COVID-19 UNIT, SPARROW HEALTH SYSTEM: The first day I came in and saw that our unit was full of COVID patients again. It was really difficult. I had tears in my eyes.

MARQUEZ (on-camera): Twenty-two years a registered nurse.

DORA HOPPES, REGISTERED NURSE, COVID-19 UNIT, SPARROW HEALTH SYSTEM: Yes.

MARQUEZ (on-camera): How hard is the last year been?

HOPPES: Harder.

MARQUEZ (on-camera): Why?

HOPPES: People are dying. I'm sorry.

MARQUEZ (on-camera): Why it's so hard to talk about?

HOPPES: Because I just saw yesterday.

[20:55:02]

MARQUEZ (on-camera): What did you see?

HOPPES: I had a patient passed away.

MARQUEZ (voice-over): The weight of so much sickness and death that burden getting only heavier.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MARQUEZ: It is so difficult to speak to those health care professionals who have been out there day after day for the last year. Those two last nurses that you heard from, they both got COVID during the last year. So not only is the stress, physical and mental but as to their health as well.

Many other nurses that we spoke to also got coronavirus. That last nurse you heard from, she said she wants a normal day she just wants to come in and work with somebody who's getting over gallbladder surgery. Anderson.

COOPER: Miguel Marquez, appreciate it. Thanks very much.

Coming up next, the latest attempt by Congressman Matt Gaetz to clear his name about the allegations involving sex trafficking.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: Republican Congressman Matt Gaetz is trying to put out more fires and save his career tonight, this time with an editorial defending himself against the federal investigation into allegations involving sex trafficking and prostitution including allegations involving a minor. He writes in the Washington Examiner quote, first, I've never ever paid for sex and second I as an adult man have not slept with the 17-year-old. He also writes quote and no I am absolutely not resigning.

Later, he writes this, my personal life is and always has been conducted on my own time and my own dime.

[21:00:02]

Sources tell CNN that investigators are pursuing allegations that Gaetz may have used cash and drugs in his dealings with young women. Also, that they have looked whether any federal campaign money was involved in paying for travel and expenses.

This new editorial comes the same day that Gaetz added a new attorney to his defense team John Larrow (ph) who has significant experience on white collar cases.

News continues right now. Want to hand over Chris for "CUOMO PRIME TIME." Chris.