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Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees

Interview With Rep. Pete Aguilar (D-CA); January 6 Committee Interviewed Trump D.O.J. Official, Richard Donoghue; New Timeline On Brian Laundrie's Disappearance; McConnell Offers Temporary Debt Limit Solution To Avert "Devastating" U.S. Debt Default; Facebook Whistleblower To Talk To Jan.6 Select Committee; "Captain Kirk" Aka William Shatner Heading Into Space; Federal Judge Issues Order To Block Texas Six-Week Abortion Ban. Aired 8-9p ET

Aired October 06, 2021 - 20:00   ET


ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: AC 360 starts now.


ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: Good evening. In about 28 hours, we'll know something important about four individuals and perhaps something vital about the health and possible future this democracy.

Keeping them honest, it would be nice if there were some gentler way of framing it, but it is hard to see how because in about 28 hours, we'll know whether the four -- these four -- all former public servants have any devotion to the laws and institutions they once swore to preserve and uphold, whether they owe their allegiance entirely to one man, the former President.

Former White House Chief of Staff, Mark Meadows, former aides and allies Dan Scavino, Steve Bannon, and Kash Patel -- have until tomorrow night at midnight to answer subpoenas from the House Select Committee investigating the January 6th attack on the Capitol and the former President's attempt to overturn the election, which is the euphemistic phrase we've all come to accept for an attempted coup.

In a moment, we'll hear from a member of the committee. In the meantime, as we reported last night, Dan Scavino, the former President's Twitter voice is in the wind, multiple sources telling CNN he can't be found to receive the subpoena.

As for the other three, we can't say to what degree if any they have cooperated with the committee. Perhaps the congressman can clear that up in a moment.

What we do know is the former President today sent a message, just as plainly as the ones he used to send when he would dangle pardons in front of witnesses or issue threats to potential cooperators or as he calls them, rats.

And we should say, we generally do not air the man's rantings at all. However, it's a different story when those rantings show his retrospective support for the last coup attempt, and suggest his eagerness for another.

Now, here is the statement he released quote: "The Unselect Committee of partisan Democrats and two very weak and pathetic RINOs should come to the conclusion after spending many millions of dollars that the real insurrection happened in November 3rd, the Presidential Election, not on January 6th, which was a day of protesting the fake election results."

Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

But it also might be a message to those four who are due to comply with the committee. In short, resist. Of course, there is no way of knowing his motives. Perhaps he was simply jealous that Mike Pence's remarks the other day, as absurd as they were on FOX News grabbed the spotlight for oh, about 24 hours.


MIKE PENCE, FORMER VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I know the media wants to distract from the Biden administration's failed agenda by focusing on one day in January, they want to use that one day to try and demean the character and intentions of 74 million Americans who believed we could be strong again and prosperous again and supported our administration in 2016 and 2020.


COOPER: I don't know for a fact -- I think he practices those things. I think he practices the whole steely look, the whole kind of shoulder wiggle, the whole like, Pence thing. Just a guess.

That's the guy the rioters said they wanted to kill -- literally kill him, hang him. That video of him being rushed to safety, of course, thanks to the Secret Service, his family members, too, but he is so compromised by his fealty to his former master, so desperate to be President himself. He has gotten such a little taste of it being Vice President that he is trying to excuse the whole affair just one day in January.

Those are the lessons he's learned apparently. And we'll see tomorrow if the people subpoenaed are reading from the same script, probably are. It is behavior not seen since -- well, I mean, I don't know? Days of Stalin and his crowd of toadying mediocrities? Never seen it here, really, not ever -- until now.

Don't take it for me. Last night, I spoke with former National Security Council senior official, Fiona Hill. She is an astute historian of Russia and the Soviet Union, and she worked in the White House and she sees the danger.


FIONA HILL, AUTHOR, "THERE IS NOTHING FOR YOU HERE." Oh, we're on a completely different path than we've been on for, you know, the last several hundred years since our independence. We're back on the path to tyranny, and I don't say that lightly. Because once you get someone who has no real respect for the institutions that have been built up over hundreds of years that have been laid down in the Constitution and only thinks about themselves, then we've forgotten what this country was about.


COOPER: On the road to tyranny.

Joining us now Congressman Peter Aguilar, Democrat of California, member of the Select Committee.

Congressman, I really appreciate you being with us. Do you believe the former President's Allies whom you've subpoenaed will actually comply by tomorrow's deadline?

REP. PETER AGUILAR (D-CA): Well, what we believe is that it is every American's opportunity and their duty to respond to a subpoena like this and to tell the truth. That's all we've sought. That's what we're asking. And we feel that if someone wanted to be patriotic and put the Constitution first, they would do just that. They would --

COOPER: But you know the track record of --- in Trump world, I mean, they have proven that not paying attention to subpoenas from the House actually works. It actually, you know, because it was a norm that was followed that people would reply to subpoenas, but it turns out the House doesn't really have the power to enforce them.

AGUILAR: Well, that's true in prior times, and I think that we'll see. Let's see their level of compliance and then we will see what the select committee does from there.

But we have options. We've been very clear about that. That's been reported both civil and criminal options, and we have a Department of Justice who has an open line of communication with us. And so we feel that we have the opportunity to compel them, at some point.


COOPER: Can you say, if any of the people you have subpoenaed have -- I mean, have you been able to serve some of them? Have you been able to serve Dan Scavino? Because all the reporting we had was that, as of now, he has not been served?

AGUILAR: I've seen that reporting as well, and we're going through the proper steps, and I'm not going to get into all the investigative steps and maybe we need to look in Dan Scavino's mom's basement for him. But, you know, we'll do what we need to do and we have the appropriate help in order to facilitate that.

COOPER: You talked about criminal options. What kind of -- I mean, are you talking about a criminal referral to the Department of Justice? And what -- how would that work?

AGUILAR: That's one of the tools for non-compliance that the committee would have to make a vote and the House would ultimately have to make a vote to send something to the Department of Justice. What we've said and what the Chairman has said very clearly is that

those are options that are available to the committee. But let's step back, let's wait for the deadline, both for material, as well as for their testimony to come before us. Once those deadlines lapse, then the committee as a whole will look at the alternatives and take action that's accordingly.

COOPER: CNN is reporting the former number two official at the Trump Justice Department, Richard Donoghue sat for an interview with your committee this past Friday. Can you tell us anything about that?

AGUILAR: I can tell you that the committee is making progress, that there are staff level meetings and interactions that are informal, as well as interviews that are taking place throughout the month. We'll continue to make progress. Members are engaged in this process.

And our ultimate goal here is to produce a report that lays out exactly what happened on January 5th and January 6th and the events that led up to that. That's our goal. That's our focus and that's what we're attempting to do here.

COOPER: We just learned that the Facebook whistleblower will be meeting with your committee as soon as tomorrow. Has she provided information to your committee? What do you hope to learn from her?

AGUILAR: I'm aware of that reporting, and it is my understanding that she indicated she was going to come and talk to the committee while she was on Capitol Hill earlier today. So, you know, let's allow those conversations, you know, to happen, and let's see what can come of it.

Like I said, there are different levels of meetings and discussions that are being had, some at the staff level and some involving members and investigators that are more formal.

And so we have these tools available to us and we are going to continue to meet with anyone who has information or seeks to provide us information that can help us in ultimately producing a report that talks about the facts, and the importance of making sure that this doesn't happen again.

COOPER: Just lastly, I'm wondering, I mean, I really stopped reading the former President's, you know, statements that they put out. This one did sort of rise to the top of the cesspool of Mar-a-Lago and I saw it and we mentioned it tonight.

When you hear the President saying the real insurrection was Election Day. I know, you know, the bar has been lowered so low for this person. But, you know, to think that a former President of the United States is calling an Election Day that was actually wildly successful in the midst of a pandemic, more people coming out than ever before, Republicans and Democrats voting. It was an extraordinary election. Republicans did very well all across the country, just the President lost.

The idea that he's calling that the real insurrection, what do you think about that? AGUILAR: That his own Homeland Security Department said was a free

and fair election and his Attorney General at the time said the same thing. So you know, it's just so detached from reality, but I think the American public sees right through this. They know the lies and the deception that he stokes to pursue and it's unfortunate and difficult.

But it shows the importance of the work that the select committee is going to do here because we need to separate fact from fiction. And clearly, there is a lot of fiction that comes out of his former tweets and in his current, however, he puts these statements out.

But we're going to get to the truth and we're going to do it in a thoughtful way and to make sure that we take in as much information as possible, and we compel folks to come give that testimony.

COOPER: Congressman Aguilar, I really appreciate it. Thank you very much.

AGUILAR: Thank you.

COOPER: Joining us now, CNN contributor and former Nixon White House Counsel, John Dean. John, you heard the Congressman. Can you just expand on what legal options really there are for the committee if these people don't comply? Because again, I mean, the track has -- you know, the playbook has been written by the Trump administration on how subpoenas can be handled from the House, which is just, you know, as Don McGahn did, ignore, and you know, it gets delayed for two years and nobody pays attention.


JOHN DEAN, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Very effectively the Trump people actually left the House rules in shambles when Don McGahn started litigating the whole issue and refusing. Don McGahn really prevailed notwithstanding any gloss to the contrary. He really showed that the House had no enforcement mechanism.

They had a compromise settlement that got him in front of the committee, but that had a three judge panel rule that the House has no civil remedy to enforce its subpoenas, while that got vacated, the argument didn't go away.

Anderson, the biggest surprise to me is that the House has not gotten itself in shape. There are procedures it could implement. Ted Lieu, Congressman from California, my Congressman, as a matter of fact, introduced a resolution to the House rules that would give them a tool to enforce fines against people who refuse to honor subpoenas, and they could get quite significant. It could get up to $25,000.00 for the first hit, up to $100.000.00, and this could start repeating itself. That'll get people's attention if they have to pay that kind of money.

COOPER: Who would have to approve that, though?

DEAN: The House itself. It would -- COOPER: Would it have to go through the Senate?

DEAN: It is an internal rule, it's an amendment. No, it does not. The Senate actually has a statute where they can enforce civil proceedings to enforce their subpoenas. The House doesn't believe, I think, at this time they'd ever get the Senate Republicans to go along with enacting a law that would give them the same thing on their books.

So the internal remedy is the best one, I think.

COOPER: So, I mean, can somebody just avoid being served with this? I mean, if Dan Scavino is in fact avoiding being served with a subpoena is that a strategy that works?

DEAN: For a while. There are notice procedures. I don't know where he resides, but they can probably find his residence and there are posting notice procedures that after a while, dodging the server doesn't work where there are other ways to get to him. But that takes -- it is stalling. Again, it indicates to me that's what they're going to do.

COOPER: John Dean, I appreciate it. Thank you.

Up next, we have breaking news in the search for Brian Laundrie. There are some new information from the family attorney on when they say now he actually disappeared.

And later, on an uplifting note, William Shatner, perhaps the most famous space voyager who has never really been into space is about to change that. His thoughts on his upcoming rocket ride and so much more. It's kind of a wild conversation.


COOPER: Are you in training? Is there any -- I mean, I know we talk about rehearsals, but I mean --

WILLIAM SHATNER, ACTOR: All the time. I am running miles and miles. What I'm doing is taking deep breaths. The best training is to fill my lungs and let the air go back out, and this exchange of oxygen and carbon dioxide.


SHATNER: Very important.

COOPER: I've read that.

SHATNER: Very important.



[20:17:28] COOPER: Key developments in the search for Brian Laundrie, there is a

new timeline on his disappearance before his fiancee, Gabby Petito was found dead, and new information on the car that he seems to have left behind.

Also, Petito's family speaking out about where her body was actually discovered in Wyoming and we've just learned about a significant new request by law enforcement to a Laundrie family member.

Randi Kaye joins us now from Florida with details. So, I understand, there are some new information about when exactly Laundrie disappeared.

RANDI KAYE, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Exactly, Anderson. We have that information. We were also, just moments ago, getting word from the Laundrie family attorney that Chris Laundrie, Brian Laundrie's father has been asked to take part in the search, to join the search in the current reserve for his son apparently. As you know, that has been closed to the public, but the lawyer says that the family, both the mother and father of Brian Laundrie have been anxious to get into that reserve because it is only place where they believe their son may be.

So we don't know when that's going to happen, but he has been asked to join that search. And in terms of the timeline, Anderson, the lawyer is also telling CNN that Brian Laundrie left home on September 13th now, which is actually a day earlier than we had originally been told by the family and by the lawyer. So now that day is the day that the family says they saw him last when he left home with just a backpack leaving his cell phone and wallet behind.

But if you take note of that date, on the 13th, that's just two days after Gabby Petito was reported missing, so he seems to have disappeared on that day. And also, they reported -- the Laundrie's reported Brian Laundrie missing on September 17th.

So now, if he left on the 13th, that's a full four days before they reported their son missing to authorities and directed them to that Carlton Reserve where they have been searching -- Anderson.

COOPER: So, what is the new information about the car belonging to the Laundrie family that was found at the reserve?

KAYE: CNN also confirmed today that an abandoned vehicle notice was placed on a Mustang car belonging to the Laundrie family on September 14th. That car was found at the Myakkahatchee Creek Park, that's at the entrance to the Carlton Reserve. It was also part of the information that was in this redacted police report, which is also dated on September 14th.

The lawyer also telling CNN that Brian's father went to the reserve, went to that area, looked for Brian Laundrie on the evening of September 13th when he didn't come home. Then the lawyer says that the parents, both of Brian Laundrie's parents went back on September 14th to look again. They didn't see him, but they did see the citation on the car, and then on the 15th, the very next day, the lawyer says both of Brian Laundrie's parents went back to that area and picked up the car and drove it home.


COOPER: And for Gabby Petito's body, I understand her family disclosed some information about where it was actually found.

KAYE: Right. Many of her family members were on Dr. Phil today and her stepfather spoke about collecting rocks and flowers and putting across in the area in Wyoming where her remains were found. He talked about it being in the Spread Creek Dispersed Camping Area, which is in the Bridger-Teton National Forest, and here is how he described that area.


JOSEPH PETITO, GABBY PETITO'S FATHER: It was in an area where there were a few trees, and there was the remnants of a fire ring there, and you can see where those rocks have been moved to make the fire ring. There was a clearing where I would assume, knowing, I have a similar tent where I would place my tent and that opening would face out overlooking the mountain range.

And her body was found -- I guess it would be in front of a tent or if that's what was there or just in front of the fire ring. There was definitely a fire ring there, and she would have been raped.

NICOLE SCHMIDT, GABBY PETITO'S MOTHER: And it wasn't far from the van. It was five minute walk, you said, something like that.


KAYE: And her stepfather described it as being not a heavily trafficked area. And he is right. As you know, Anderson, we went to Wyoming to follow Gabby's path on this adventure out West. And we went to the Spread Creek Camping Area. We found the area where this video blogger had said she had last seen, what she believed was Gabby's van parked.

We went to that area and you can see that area where the van would have been parked likely was right next to the road, but beyond that are trees, and if you look beyond that, which we did, there is this open land, this clearing that the stepfather is talking about, which is full of large rocks. Certainly, just a few minute walk from where that van was likely parked, as he said, and there's really nothing around there. It's not a heavily trafficked area, not a place where people would hang out or maybe even see anyone who might be out in that area -- Anderson.

COOPER: Randi, I appreciate it. Thanks very much.

Perspective now on all this from CNN law enforcement analyst, Anthony Barksdale, former Acting Baltimore Police Commissioner.

Anthony, thanks for being with us. I'm wondering what you make this reporting from Randi Kaye about the search that according to the lawyer for the Laundrie family, Chris Laundrie has been asked to assist law enforcement in finding his son in the Nature Preserve.

Is there any reason why law enforcement would ask that? Or is that something a family member would ask to be part of the search?

ANTHONY BARKSDALE, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Well, I would think that they want to bring him in, involve him. Maybe he knows something, maybe, where he would share with them, hey, this is the favorite spot. This is what he preferred when he came out in the wilderness.

So it's something that -- it's a little odd to me, but I can see them doing it. It might work.

COOPER: Does it surprise you that it's been this long? I mean, more than three weeks with no, you know, breakthrough in the search?

BARKSDALE: Yes, it does, and it is concerning. We know, the longer this takes, it's just not good. If the trail goes cold, if your dogs aren't catching scents, if your manpower gets tired, you really have to look at how much you're using in effort to find him.

COOPER: What do you make of the fact that the Laundrie family, or at least the attorney came out and had to correct the date that they had given of when their son actually left home? I don't -- does that make any sense to why they wouldn't have known what day it was or why it took this long for them to correct that?

BARKSDALE: I find it suspicious. They are not guilty of anything at this point. But three weeks later, we're dealing with a homicide investigation of Laundrie's girlfriend and your memory, you can't recall -- when you're talking to the F.B.I., of all people, about a timeline, you get it straight.

So if they messed up there, if that needed a correction, what else needs to be corrected with the statements that they've given law enforcement? So I find that concerning, and it is an area where I would definitely tell investigators keep pushing because if they got that wrong, what else is wrong?

COOPER: Because I mean, we are just now learning that Brian Laundrie's car was found -- a car belonging to the Laundrie family was found abandoned on September 14th by the Nature Reserve. I mean, investigators haven't been releasing very much information from the start. Is this them trying to protect any leads that they might have?

BARKSDALE: I'm not sure how they want to play this, but I'll tell you this, Anderson. When I saw the information about the vehicle having a citation on it, I immediately thought about how Berkowitz was caught, the Son of Sam. So it matters, it all comes together under this investigation, but it really was troubling the way that that came out.


COOPER: As I recall in the Berkowitz case, he had parked his car. He was a person who was going around in New York shooting -- shooting, I think mostly women and he had parked his car and that's -- sort of that was the first lead to which police were able to follow to actually get him.

BARKSDALE: And that's -- now, I'm not saying that Laundrie is Markowitz, but sometimes just the basic parking ticket, a basic citation can trigger things in an investigation. Now, do we think that the parents would have told them that, oh, we were wrong, if that had not been the case? If that wasn't brought up by investigators? I doubt it.

COOPER: Right. It seems like -- I mean, you know, were they correcting themselves simply because the police had said, oh, actually the car was found on the 14th.


COOPER: Anthony Barksdale, I appreciate it. I appreciate your time tonight. Thank you.

Up next, there is breaking news, a possible deal to avoid a national default. We will have the latest from Capitol Hill.

Plus, Captain Kirk going to space. William Shatner, my conversation with Mr. Shatner about his upcoming journey to the final frontier, ahead. It's a lot of fun.



COOPER: There's breaking news on Capitol Hill with just 12 days to go until the possible first default in U.S. history. Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell has offered a short term suspension of the debt ceiling, the deal Democrats say they will accept.

CNN's Ryan Nobles joins us now. So, talk about how this happened. What's the latest?

RYAN NOBLES, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, well, they're still working out the finer points of this negotiation, Anderson, the Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell left about 30 minutes ago, he told reporters that they're trading paper as they try and figure out a path that both sides can agree to what and essentially will be a temporary fix to this problem. And what McConnell is offering is that he would allow a bill that would extend the debt ceiling through the end of November to the floor in exchange for just being temporary and being assigned to a specific number that they would allow the debt ceiling to rise to.

Now, the Democrats have cautiously agreed to that, but they are concerned that it's going to come with some additional addendums, that McConnell, for instance, is going to force them to pass it on a more long term basis through the reconciliation process, which they are opposed to.

So that's what they're hashing out right now exactly what form and fashion, this negotiation looks like before Democrats agreed to it, and before they can finally move forward with getting this legislation moved on and avoiding that calamity of the debt ceiling being eclipsed.

COOPER: So it's a short term solution, what are the next steps?

NOBLES: There really -- we don't know what the next steps are, frankly, Anderson. This is only a temporary fix. Once they pass this and, and get over this hump, this same exact problem that they're dealing with right now is going to be a problem again, at the end of November, as we head into December and the Christmas holiday. And it's going to come also at the same time where they're negotiating these big, big budget issues in terms of the bipartisan infrastructure plan. And of course, that expansion of the social safety net, which there's a big impasse around.

So they aren't solving any problems here. Let's be very clear about that. They are essentially just kicking the can down the road so that the country avoids a default, but the problems here are still going to exist.

COOPER: All right, Ryan, thanks very much.

And back to the breaking news that we reported earlier. CNN has learned the Facebook whistleblower who released thousands of documents she says, shows the company knows its platforms are used to spread hate violence and misinformation is expected to meet with the January 6 select committee as soon as tomorrow.

Meanwhile, the Wall Street Journal is reporting that same testimony slowed the rollout of new products and put a hold on some work on existing products at Facebook. This is reportedly. So Facebook can conduct quote, reputational reviews, to examine how it may be criticized and to ensure products don't adversely impact children. That's what Facebook is -- that's what Wall Street Journal is reporting.

Joining us now to talk about that Scott Galloway, Professor of Marketing at NYU Stern School of Business where he teaches digital marketing.

So Scott, this Wall Street Journal report that Facebook has slowed, slowed the rollout of some new products, is that significant do you think?

SCOTT GALLOWAY, NYU STERN SCHOOL OF BUSINESS: You know, I feel as if it's kind of the it's their go to delay an obfuscation. And what strikes me is we're very focused on what Facebook is or isn't going to do, whereas that's the wrong question. We should be asking, what are we going to do? They go to this playbook of delay and obfuscation, wait till the hysteria calms down or the discourse calms down. And they go right back to doing what they do, which is enraging us so I think the better question is what are we going to do?

COOPER: Well what do you -- I mean, do you think people I -- you know, people's attention last very short on these sorts of things. And as you said, you know, another outrage or another thing comes along the following day and people move on. And they like, you know, people use Facebook. GALLOWAY: Yes, but supposedly, we elect this body called our senators and our Congress people to think long term for us to stick and be steadfast around these issues. And what struck me as kind of typical for this is a bunch of senators said that they were planning to write stern letters to Facebook and it's, you know, I think what needs to happen is our lawmakers need to start making laws.

I mean, I was even thinking today Anderson, we age gate alcohol, certain adult content. What's more dangerous for your 17-year-old daughter watching Deadpool or having extreme diets side recommended to her it's, it's kind of enough. We know what Facebook's going to do. The better question is, what are we going to do?

COOPER: When last we spoke on Monday night, it was before Frances Haugen's testimony before Congress. I wonder what you what you made of what she said to her attorney said on a Washington Post live feed that that there's more to come that shouldn't, you know, only some of the documents have been made public thus far.

GALLOWAY: I'll tell you, Anderson, I don't know I trust you saw the testimony. She strikes me as literally the perfect witness. It's as if they took Edward Snowden and gave him Super Soldier Serum and turned him in. I mean, she literally loses America, very credible, said I don't know I have no access to that information. I think she's a nightmare for Facebook. So, I would imagine that -- not only that, think about how well orchestrated this is. A series of investigative journalism pieces, a national television rollout, a website have launched. I mean, she came to play this is really interesting. If this witness can't get something done or can't catalyze some sort of activity, then this really is just theater, there really is no action that comes from anything.


COOPER: You know, part of her argument is they will look they're just out for the money, they're doing things that they know are not good. I mean, isn't that a lot of companies? Isn't that a lot of cable news shows which are like, you know, screaming and yelling, and they know it's not good, and they're getting people angry and riled up. Isn't -- I mean isn't that not good?

GALLOWAY: Hundred percent they're not doing anything, other media outlets aren't doing. They're just doing it much better. And for some reason, we've exonerated them from any liability of CNN or any other cable network could be reverse engineered to teen depression. Or if you were taking ads from the Russian intelligence arm, or the intelligence arm of the Russian government. You'd be in a world of hurt.

Facebook, we've been talking a lot about the metaverse recently. And the reason why it's got all this attention if what if Mark Zuckerberg controls a world where we start spending more and more time? Wouldn't that make him God? We have a 30 something year old college dropout, who's kind of in my view demonstrated a lack of concern for the Commonwealth, who controls the algorithm that feeds the content and our emotion and our rage, if you will, to a population that's greater than the southern hemisphere plus India, what could go wrong? This is terrifying. And we're seeing evidence of this everywhere.

You can see levels of admittance to hosta to emergency rooms of self harm among girls start to explode just as Instagram was acquired by Facebook. Mark Zuckerberg is the most dangerous person in the world. And this Gestalt around money being able to overrun any reasonable sense of regulation by big tech, has turned this into -- has turned these companies into what I call the menace economy. And some are worse than others, but we've regulated other industries. It's just very strange that we've decided to let these firms get away with things that we would let no other firm get away with.

COOPER: Scott Galloway, appreciate it. Thank you, Scott.

GALLOWAY: Thank you, Anderson.

COOPER: Still ahead, my conversation with William Shatner about his upcoming trip to space.


COOPER (on-camera): I think I'd be -- I mean, I would want to be staring out the window the whole time while floating.

WILLIAM SHATNER, ACTOR: I want to press my nose up against the plastic window. What I don't want to see is somebody else out there looking back at me. No, no, we don't want that one.




COOPER: (INAUDIBLE) first knew him as the terrified airline passenger nightmare at 20,000 feet which is ironic in that everyone is in nearly every single person on the planet who's ever turned on TV or gone to the movies now knows him as the boldest face voyage of his time, of all time. And now, next Tuesday to be precise he'll be heading to the stars for real and Jeff Bezos' new Shepard Rocket.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) has cleared the tower on our way to space with our first human crew.


COOPER: Sure, it'll only be a few minutes of weightlessness and not even a per second distance. But when he made the Twilight Zone appearance in October 1963, only six Americans have ever done what he's about to do next week. I spoke shortly before airtime from my online show "Full Circle."


COOPER (on-camera): William Shatner, I am delighted that you're getting this experience and delighted to have you on the program. Thanks for being with us.

SHATNER: Thank you. Thank you, Anderson Cooper. I love to see your name. Anderson Cooper just rolls up.

COOPER (on-camera): First of all, you look amazing. I look like I'm ravaged by time. You look extraordinary.

SHATNER: No, no, I too. I'm rabbit (INAUDIBLE).

COOPER (on-camera): So --

SHATNER: My -- it's mostly internal. Your -- yours comes out (INAUDIBLE) but I'm falling aside, I'm falling apart inside. You should see my kidneys.

COOPER (on-camera): Is it right? Well, I'm dead inside. So, you know, emotionally, you know, I don't know. I love how you announce this to the world with the tweet you said. So now I can say something, yes, it's true. I'm going to be a rocket man. Is this -- I mean, have you obviously you know, look, you've been in Star Trek. Have you ever thought about actually being able to go up into space?

SHATNER: No, I mean, I'm so sorry to bring you down to earth to use a phrase. It was all pretend Anderson. None of that, I was on a set in Paramount Studios --

COOPER (on-camera): What do you mean, Bill?


COOPER (on-camera): What do you -- what?

SHATNER: I never, you know, well, when shooting Star Trek, it was all a figment of our collective imagination. And then somebody said, oh, you go at 100 miles an hour, you leave orbit, you go and you land on the moon, and land on the moon. Oh, my lord. Space travel was being considered but, and I used to, I'd go down to the Kennedy. From time to time during the series, I was shooting Star Trek and I met all the astronauts and the heroes and everything. And I was very impressed.

So when they went to the moon, I had reached a Nadir. They were at the apogee. I was divorced, and the show's canceled and I'm looking up there --

COOPER (on-camera): Oh men.

SHATNER: -- looking at a little black and white suit and I'm lying in a cab, trying to find get some sleep because I have to perform the next day and I can't afford a hotel room and all that kind of thing. So 55 years later, I wrote a song this album I've got that it's out there now called Bill, it's a song --

COOPER (on-camera): Yes, you got -- you've got a spoken word album that's just come out. That's so cool.

SHATNER: That's getting rave reviews. And one of the songs is So Far From The Moon. And it's all about that moment when I was looking at the sky being so far from the moon and here I am, all this time later, being a few thousand feet closer to the moon than you are will be.

COOPER (on-camera): The thing is you've got to play your new record when you're up in space. And that's probably going to be a --


COOPER (on-camera): -- (INAUDIBLE) to like you know that should be the soundtrack for your journey into space.


SHATNER: Right, right. But they're jealously guarding all their publicity. This is all about Blue Origin. This is Blue Origins moment in time (INAUDIBLE). But it is actually, actually to say a word about Blue Origin they are fabulous inspect. The only thing I hadn't seen unfortunately was the rocket that you just played?

COOPER (on-camera): Yes.

SHATNER: All that fire and brimstone.

COOPER (on-camera): Yes.

SHATNER: I hadn't seen that footage before.

COOPER (on-camera): Oh, really, oh because I was actually there for the launch.

SHATNER: Oh my god, you're showing it again.

COOPER (on-camera): It's really powerful.

SHATNER: I know. And things like that go up and boom in the night and it's a little scary I got to tell you.

COOPER (on-camera): Yes. Some people made fun of the way the rocket looks but I think it's cool, I like it, I think the weightless thing I think would be fun.

SHATNER: Well now there's nothing to be, nothing to do to make fun up. We're inseminating the space program.

COOPER (on-camera): You know when I throw that out there I didn't know if you're going to pick up on it and you did and (INAUDIBLE).

SHATNER: Well leave it to you to throw it out there, for someone else to pick it up. But it certainly does look when they say insertion.

COOPER (on-camera): Yes.

SHATNER: Do they really mean insertion.

COOPER (on-camera): Yes.

SHATNER: I am -- I'm looking forward to the whole thing. I've been there. I was there last week rehearsing whatever they call it.

COOPER (on-camera): A train, I think is what they call it. But, you know, reversing --

SHATNER: Oh training. I think of it as rehearsal. I want to go warp speed it take me to warp speed and they say what. And the weightlessness absolutely is entrancing.

COOPER (on-camera): Yes.

SHATNER: I mean imagine being weightless and you're thin enough but I'm not imagine being weightless and staring into that blackness and seeing the earth and that's what I want to absorb that's what I want to (INAUDIBLE) --

COOPER (on-camera): Go as fast though, you know. I mean because they -- on their flight Bezos it's like, you know, they were throwing Skittles at each other and catching and stuffing it looks like a fun. I think I'd be -- I mean I wouldn't want to be staring out the window the whole time while floating.

SHATNER: I want to press my nose up against the plastic window. What I don't want to see is somebody else out there looking back at me. No, no we don't want that one.

COOPER (on-camera): Oh my god that's really funny.

SHATNER: Would that be funny?

COOPER (on-camera): The other thing I think is so cool about the spacecraft they're going in, is that it? It comes back and it lands upright. I mean, which I don't know anyway --

SHATNER: I know.

COOPER (on-camera): -- about science. I skipped a lot of those classes. But to me, that's just incredible.

SHATNER: That is incredible for it to come up. What's going to be boring credible is that little pop?

COOPER (on-camera): Yes.

SHATNER: That hit two comes down.

COOPER (on-camera): Yes, I know.

SHATNER: And lands up right?

COOPER (on-camera): I know.

SHATNER: That'd be wonderful.

COOPER (on-camera): Now, do you know, I know this is a dumb question. Do you know what you're going to wear? Because I know they have outfits like are you going to -- are you going to bring -- I'm sure there some like Star Trek fans wondering they're going to bring with all a taser or anything.

SHATNER: They're making space -- they're making a spacesuit for me. And I want it in pink.

COOPER (on-camera): Oh.

SHATNER: With a little red epilates there. And shiny buttons going down. They're good. They're cloaking us in blue. Because Blue Origin.

COOPER (on-camera): Yes, I know.

SHATNER: And it's a made to order.

COOPER (on-camera): You're not going to bring any mementos any anything with you?

SHATNER: I am. They've allowed me to dig a little blue bag full of mementos. So I've got family and friends collecting little mementos, so that I can bring it up. They'll stay in that little blue box that blue satchel. You can't sell it, can't monetize it. There's, you know, the -- I was reading about the coin. They're going to meet (ph) for a billion dollars. You can't say this is an NFT. No, this is your -- for your little purposes. So, I've got three or four little trinkets from people.

COOPER (on-camera): Are you in training? Is there any I mean, I know we talked about rehearsals, but I mean --

SHATNER: All the time. I'm running miles, miles. What I'm doing is taking deep breaths.

COOPER (on-camera): Yes.

SHATNER: Well the best training --

COOPER (on-camera): Yes.

SHATNER: -- is to fill my lungs and let the air go back out on this exchange, the oxygen --

COOPER (on-camera): Yes.

SHATNER: -- the carbon dioxide --

COOPER (on-camera): Yes.

SHATNER: -- is very simple.

COOPER (on-camera): I've read that. I've read that.

SHATNER: Very important.

COOPER (on-camera): I've got a breath coach.

SHATNER: My fear is --

COOPER (on-camera): Yes, yes.

SHATNER: My fear is as you go up that you can't draw breath though that apparently is not going to happen. But that's what they say. I'm really quite apprehensive as you might have guessed.

COOPER (on-camera): Yes. You seem really nervous. You seem really --

SHATNER: I'm a little bit nervous.

COOPER (on-camera): Are you really? Are you?

SHATNER: No, I really am, there's an element of the chance here.

COOPER (on-camera): Well, yes, there is.

SHATNER: This isn't like, this like going on one of the various life possible life ending possibilities I've done all my.


COOPER (on-camera): Right.

SHATNER: I've been on things that are, oh, wow, that makes me nervous.

COOPER (on-camera): But you, you ride horses fast and you --

SHATNER I rode a big motorcycle from Chicago to Los Angeles. All that traffic.

COOPER (on-camera): Yes, I mean that's a --

SHATNER: For days.

COOPER (on-camera): -- that's a --

SHATNER: I faced death (inaudible) hours.

COOPER (on-camera): That's a death threat, yes.


COOPER (on-camera): Yes. So this is nothing?

SHATNER: But Anderson I'm telling you, I'm more afraid of -- so when I come back, imagine the sanguinity of the ease, and the piece that we can talk about and what -- but more importantly, is what will I see when I'm out there.

COOPER (on-camera): You're going to be transformed?

SHATNER: What will I see?

COOPER (on-camera): It's going to be a new you comes back to earth?

SHATNER: Yes, because not only relied look at the majesty of space and the Oasis of earth. But isn't there a possibility that things fly by as we've seen on cameras?

COOPER (on-camera): Yes.

SHATNER: It's one of these. What's the explanation of that?

COOPER (on-camera): It's possible you could be grabbed and probed by some alien life form and then returned to earth and have a vague memory of it.

SHATNER: Yes, yes. Well, being probed by an alien (INAUDIBLE). Thank you.

COOPER (on-camera): So I hope, well, I hope I can talk to you when you come back.

SHATNER: But before you before you do that, the question I have to ask is --

COOPER (on-camera): Yes.

SHATNER: -- sir, as he's, he's advancing as he or she is advancing on me. My question is, what are you probing for?

COOPER (on-camera): That's a good question. Do you actually know -- so I've now kind of -- I mean, I'm freaked out by all these videos we've seen of strange I've interviewed some of the pilots who have seen these things. I kind of -- I now I'm a believer.

SHATNER: I'm freaked out man.

COOPER (on-camera): Or do you believe?


COOPER (on-camera): Do you believe that there is some sort of other life form from some other galaxy or --

SHATNER: The women --

COOPER (on-camera): -- is that just like drone?

SHATNER: You've asked a complex question.

COOPER (on-camera): And not very well, well phrased way, but yes I appreciate it.

SHATNER: I have seen not firsthand because all our knowledge comes secondhand except me see space. But I have been told by the guy who saw that there are extremophiles living in 600 degrees Fahrenheit water in sulfur 30 feet below the ocean and in sulfur, and they're alive these worms and these clams.

COOPER (on-camera): Wow.

SHATNER: (INAUDIBLE). So will I -- will -- are these UFOs being piloted by worms and clams? I don't know. COOPER (on-camera): People talking about it.


COOPER (on-camera): It could be.

SHATNER: I know. But they're unidentified. That's for sure. Who's flying them? Well, that's the question.

COOPER (on-camera): I love that you said that all our knowledge is secondhand.

SHATNER: I think well it is, somebody says two plus two is four. Yes, OK. Thank you sir, two plus is four. You know.

COOPER (on-camera): You've been getting --

SHATNER: But I'm like it -- but I'm going to experience the knowledge of space first hand. I'll come back and tell you what it's like.

COOPER (on-camera): Yes. William Shatner, it's really a pleasure to talk to you. I mean you're so funny and talented and I just -- I'm so I'm just tickled and coughing.

SHATNER: I would like to -- I would like to do this again when I -- if and when I come back.

COOPER (on-camera): You know what I would be honored if that's a deal I would absolutely love to do that. But you may be at such an elevated plane of consciousness that this just seems completely even more (INAUDIBLE) right now.

SHATNER: I don't mind taking a step down and (INAUDIBLE). Maybe I can convince you of --

COOPER (on-camera): Yes.

SHATNER: Wonderment of nature.

COOPER (on-camera): I would love to be imbued with even a small tiny fraction of the knowledge that you are going to gain in the 30 seconds that you are spending up there or three minutes.

SHATNER: Three minutes, three minutes, three minutes.

COOPER (on-camera): With the nose press --

SHATNER: Don't to me that 30 seconds, right.

COOPER (on-camera): -- (INAUDIBLE). Don't fog it up. Don't -- you got to control your breath, thank God you're doing breath exercises.

SHATNER: That's right, (INAUDIBLE).

COOPER (on-camera): It all comes around.

SHATNER: Imagine fog attacks (INAUDIBLE).

COOPER (on-camera): Wait a minute, let me --

SHATNER: That's right. Oh my god, that's terrible. I hope they (INAUDIBLE) --

COOPER (on-camera): Well, just you know like you're training coaches said just.

SHATNER: No, no, don't blow up. That's the thing they said. Suck it in and don't blow it up for three minutes.

COOPER (on-camera): I love -- OK, so my when I watch you go up, when I see this and I'm going to be watching. I'm going to imagine you waitlist screaming suck it up. Suck it up. Don't, don't blow it. I like it.

SHATNER: Well, I may not use those words --

COOPER (on-camera): Yes, probably not, (INAUDIBLE).

William Shatner, thank you so much. I wish you the best. Godspeed. Speedy recovery. And return or return I should say and I look forward to talk to you again.


SHATNER: Me too. It's a pleasure talking to you my friend. Bye, bye.


COOPER: I mean William Shatner, 90 years old, I love the guy. Again that's -- that was on "Full Circle." It's online on A lot of fun conversations, you can catch it streaming live 6:00 p.m. Eastern on Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays or watch it there and on the CNN app at anytime On Demand. We'll be right back.


COOPER: Just breaking news, close out the program could be deeply significant. We just got word that a federal judge in Texas has issued an order tonight blocking the state six week abortion ban. U.S. District Judge Robert Pitman's orders of victory for abortion rights advocates but only maybe temporary a lawyer from the Texas Attorney General's offices already made it clear the state would appeal such an order to the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit. That court is known to be perhaps the most conservative in the country and it's previously rejected requests from clinics to block the laws has the Supreme Court.

In a recent court filing an organization that runs several clinics in the states said that it will resume Providing abortions after six weeks if the judge issued the order we saw tonight.


News continues right now. I want to hand over to Chris for "CUOMO PRIME TIME." Chris.

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST: All right, Anderson, thank you very much.