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Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees

Joe Biden Calls Lawmakers Asking For Yes Vote On His Build Back Better Plan; Interview With Rep. Josh Gottheimer (D-NJ); Former D.O.J. Trump Loyalist Faces Select Committee Tomorrow; Wash. Post: Manhattan DA Convenes New Grand Jury In Trump Org. Case TO Weigh Potential Charges; Juror Dismissed For Telling Joke About Shooting Of Jacob Blake; How Covid Can Damage Your Body. Aired 8-9p ET

Aired November 04, 2021 - 20:00   ET



ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: Sweeney, who spent 11 years in office says he will not concede until the final votes come in.

Well, thanks so much for joining us. AC 360 starts right now.


ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: Good evening and stop me if you've heard this one before, but at this moment, the scramble is on again to round up enough House Democratic votes to pass President Biden's social spending and infrastructure bills. Two days after a punishing election made even more punishing, perhaps by perceived Democratic dysfunction, party members now appear close to a vote first on the so-called Build Back Better social spending bill, and then tomorrow, the bipartisan infrastructure bill.

Now, that said, House Speaker Pelosi wanted at least the first part done by now, but it is still in flux. She is famous for not bringing bills to the floor without the votes, and right now, she doesn't appear to have them. As she in the leadership lobby, the holdouts, many -- I should say mainly moderates this time around, not progressives -- the White House has also gotten involved with the President making a number of phone calls himself.

So, it is an especially busy night tonight at both ends of Pennsylvania Avenue. We expect it to be a long one as we bring you the details of it in the hour ahead.

And again, with a lot depending on what moderate House Democrats decide to do, I spoke with one of them, New Jersey's Josh Gottheimer just before airtime.


COOPER: Congressman Gottheimer, I appreciate you joining us. Where do things stand now with these votes? Is there going to be a vote tonight?

REP. JOSH GOTTHEIMER (D-NJ): Well, we'll see. We're getting very close on both the -- on getting bought in the bipartisan infrastructure package, which as, you know, Anderson, we've been working on for months and it has passed out of the Senate in early August, and then the social infrastructure bill or Build Back Better, which were final details going back and forth. We're waiting for final text now, and we hope to get there. That's everything from child care to reinstating the state local tax deduction or SALT to universal pre- K. So, so much that's important, both bills would be a huge win for the country, and so, we're close.

COOPER: I know you want to see more details about the numbers and scoring information when it comes to the social spending bill, but clearly Speaker Pelosi feels it is ready to go to a vote now. Would you -- without seeing those numbers, would you move forward?

GOTTHEIMER: Well, I think it's very important and it is something I believe deeply that I should read the bills before you take a vote on anything, you should make sure you've seen the text and understand the impact on your district.

So there are still things that are being worked out. We don't have the final text just yet. We're close. I've seen a lot of it, and so much of it is, I think, good for the district. But we need to see the final text, and we have questions about some of the investments. And of course, some of the revenues that we have. We are still waiting on answers on from -- we got some information from joint tax today on some analysis and waiting for the Congressional Budget Office to give us some numbers and analysis on some of the investments.

COOPER: So without the CBO numbers, you would not move forward?

GOTTHEIMER: I think until we get some of that information, it would be irresponsible until we get the final text, of course, and before we see the impact on the economy and our country. But I again, we're supposed to get some of those numbers any minute now, waiting on those, and I think if we can get that analysis, that will be very helpful in moving forward.

COOPER: What -- do you worry, you know, Republicans are sitting back right now looking at all this and saying, look, Democrats can't even pass their agenda while they control both Chambers of Congress and the White House. I mean -- is this is this a gift to the G.O.P.?

GOTTHEIMER: You know, listen, I'll admit, I've been very frustrated with the fact that we -- you know, I worked with my colleagues, Democrats and Republicans in the House and the Senate, you know, most of summer, going back last spring on the bipartisan infrastructure package, which is your roads, bridges, the tunnel, the train tunnels between New York and New Jersey, water infrastructure, helping us fight climate change, two million jobs a year on the line. That was passed out of the Senate with 69 votes in early August, and it has been sitting in the House waiting for action.

So you know, I think we've got to act. I think the country has spoken pretty clearly they expect us to act. And you know, we're going to get that bill done. I am hoping any hour now and of course, get this reconciliation package the social infrastructure package across the finish line as well.

But I think, it is very important that, you know, we do our jobs and make sure we see final texts and do the analysis to see the impact on our district, in our economy, and in our country. And, you know, I believe Anderson, in the coming days, we're going to have two big victories for the country, and that's going to not just help the country, but of course, I think, you know, change some of the messaging for Democrats.

COOPER: On the messaging front, I mean, if progressive Democrats and moderate Democrats, you know, can't really trust each other to vote on two things separately at different times, I guess, there are some the country that might ask, why should the country trust Democrats?


GOTTHEIMER: Well, I don't think it's a question of not trusting each other at all. I think, it is -- you know, would I've liked us to vote on the infrastructure package, the bipartisan one months ago? Yes. But I believe, we are going to work both these out. We've been all working very closely together. And everyone is, I think, acting in good faith and we'll get these across the finish line.

But I think the country wants to see action, they deserve it. They want us to produce commonsense results for them and for their families. And they expect not just Democrats work together, they expect us to work with Republicans, you know, and they want bipartisan solutions.

So, you know, I think that's why the structure package we are presenting is so important because it is great for families in the country, for our competitiveness, but also a strong sign that Democrats and Republicans can work together for them.

COOPER: Congressman Gottheimer, I really appreciate it. Thank you.

GOTTHEIMER: Thanks for having me.


COOPER: Well, some perspective now from former New York Democratic Congressman Steve Israel. He is currently Director of Cornell University's Institute of Politics and Global Affairs. Also with us, CNN chief political correspondent and "State of the Union" anchor, Dana Bash.

Dana, what do you make of the fact that even after such a poor showing at the ballot box this week, Democrats still have not been able to pass the President's agenda?

DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, it seems to me that in part, it is because of the poor showing that what you're seeing right now is the moderates, those who have the most to lose politically, because they have the potential of losing many of them, Josh Gottheimer is one. We've heard from Abigail Spanberger, who is in Virginia, and others who won in some of the -- most of them in 2018, and they've made the Democratic majority, but they won because they are in conservative districts, and now, they're facing a situation where they are looking at passing this large social safety net bill, and most of them say they support a lot of it.

But there is some of it in there that, I'm told, many of them believe could be politically, really, really dangerous for them. Immigration is one example. Not a lot of people have talked about it. But in here, some of the moderates believe that what that would effectively do is allow -- and not that they believe, it is actually in there -- that would allow undocumented immigrants to stay for a decade and able to work. That's going to be used as a cudgel against those Democrats by Republicans on an issue that they know they're very vulnerable on,

COOPER: Congressman Israel, are Democrats missing their moment here?

STEVE ISRAEL (D), FORMER U.S. REPRESENTATIVE: Well, look, you know, I'm surprised that so many people are surprised that this is tough to do. I mean, Anderson, this is what happens when you bring a blend of the Great Society and the New Deal and the Apollo Project with respect to climate technologies, and try and balance it on a three-vote majority in the House and a one-vote majority in the Senate.

Are they missing the moment? Look, the one glimmer of hope for my former colleagues is that whether you are a progressive or a moderate, you understand that if you don't pass both of these bills, the midterm is over, you're back in the minority. As Dana knows, I've been in the minority. It's not fun.

And so there is pressure on both sides to get these two bills passed in one form or another and try and have a fighting chance in what is going to be a very difficult midterm environment.

COOPER: I mean, Dana, even now, though, if these do in fact pass, you know, all the bipartisanship of getting the first one voted on initially, has just that kind of gone out the window? I mean, the benefit of having a bipartisan bill was, you show that you can work across the aisle. It's been so long since that was done. Does this now all just get lost in the mix?

BASH: Yes, and it has been for some time whether you look at sort of the messaging, the political messaging that see, this is a President who said he could bring two sides together, he did, and nobody can take that away from him. The sort of reality is that what you're going to see is when the bipartisan infrastructure bill gets passed in the House after it passed by a huge bipartisan majority in the Senate, you're going to see the Republicans go home, and who voted for it, and maybe even some of them -- some who didn't claim credit for all of the jobs and the projects that they're bringing back home.

So theirs is a lot of benefit for Republicans politically.

COOPER: They've already done that, I believe.

BASH: No, but they're -- totally and they're going to continue to do that. And then, you know, try to whack it at the Democrats. But I just think it is so fascinating that for so long, Anderson, we were talking about the progressives using their leverage. Now, we're seeing the moderates at the last minute use their leverage to deal with things like the taxes that Josh Gottheimer was talking about, the state and local tax deductions, prescription drug benefits, and being able to negotiate drug prices and of course, immigration and just the overall cost.


COOPER: Congressman, it is really your reference -- as you were Chairman of the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee after the 2010 election where Democrats lost more than 60 House seats. David Axelrod said the other night that he saw those losses coming from a long way away because of the economic situation. Do you think your party is in store for a similar shellacking?

ISRAEL: Well, yes, unless they can get -- we can get our act together. Look, what happened in 2021 is eerily reminiscent of what happened in 2009. We lost Virginia, we lost New Jersey. We got shellacked in suburbs across the country. So we knew that it was an uphill battle as early as November 2009. It wasn't until August of 2010 that we began to realize that this isn't just off Hill, this could be really bad, and when we lost 63 seats in November, nobody -- I don't believe anybody really can forecast the loss of 63 seats that we suffered.

And so, this is shaping up -- the trends, the climate are very similar, it is like watching a hurricane and tracking it and understanding you know, where it is going to land. That's the bad news. Here is the potentially good news is that Democrats remember how bad it can get, and they understand that they need a course correction. And if they can get that course correction, pass these bills, produce tangible results for voters, regain faith amongst suburban voters, then they have a fighting chance to survive what will be a very tough midterm.

COOPER: Steve Israel, Dana Bash, I appreciate it.

BASH: Or alternatively, the reality --

COOPER: Go ahead, Dana.

BASH: Just real quick -- the reality is that they do see what's coming in November of next year, which is why there is a race to get as much done as possible before they lose the majority.

COOPER: Yes, Dana, Steve Israel, thank you so much. Appreciate it.

It is a very busy night as well when it comes to all things to do with January 6th with the former President, new subpoenas, a highly anticipated witness from the former administration, presidential documents and more. Woodward and Bernstein, legendary duo of Bob Woodward and Carl Bernstein join us for their analysis ahead.

Also, a report that the former President is facing another New York grand jury. What they are said to be examining, next.



COOPER: A word today that the Trump loyalists or former Trump loyalists that the President wanted to run the Justice Department to advance his scheme to overturn the election is finally ready to be interviewed tomorrow by the House January 6th Select Committee. That is what multiple sources now confirm.

Jeffrey Clark is his name. He was subpoenaed by the Committee after failing to voluntarily cooperate with the investigation. He was originally scheduled to appear last Friday, but received a postponement after changing counsel.

Also late today, Committee Chairman Benny Thompson told reporters that he has signed about 20 new subpoenas, which he says could go out as soon as tomorrow. Separately, a Federal judge in Washington today heard arguments for the former President's efforts to keep White House documents away from the Committee. She presses attorneys on why as a former President, he has any right to control public access to hundreds of pages of records, especially if they are material to a congressional investigation.

In addition, she threw cold water on the request that the court review each document one by one, which the Judge said could take years. However, she also noted that some of the Select Committee's request seemed in her words, really broad and even quote "alarmingly broad." She hasn't ruled yet.

Joining us now and together again CNN political analyst, Carl Bernstein and "Washington Post's" Associate Editor, Bob Woodward, co- author with Robert Costa of "Peril," which covers much of what the Select Committee is investigating. He also famously wrote with Carl, "All the President's Men in the Final Day."

So Bob, if the judge in this dispute does grant the Committee access to some or all of the documents they've requested involving the foreign President, how important is it? How damning do you think it could be for him and his allies?

BOB WOODWARD, ASSOCIATE EDITOR, "THE WASHINGTON POST": Well, that may happen, but it will, of course, be appealed. And I think if you look at the Nixon tapes case going back to 1974, the ruling was that a prosecutor can get in the case of Nixon, his tapes, but the Senate Watergate Committee could not.

So, I'm not sure the January 6th Commission has really got a strong hand. But this is very important if you digest the mechanics of an investigation like this. Liz Cheney said, they've talked to 150 people. You can get a name, you can get a list, I doubt if there's anything in these documents that is going to be the smoking gun, but they have to find a witness, a participant who will cooperate or some sort of secret taping system, so there is a great deal of work to be done here.

COOPER: Carl, what do you make of how it's going so far? CARL BERNSTEIN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, I think that the

Committee is at a great disadvantage, because there is a cover up going on, and the cover up is of the most grievous undermining of our democracy in this country, done by a President of the United States since the Civil War.

And the Republican Party is now complicit in the cover up because it does not want to see this investigation go forward.

In Watergate, you had a situation where the Senate voted unanimously to create the Senate Watergate Committee to investigate on a bipartisan basis, what had happened in our electoral system. We have the opposite happening now in the Republican Party, including the leadership -- Connell, Kevin McCarthy -- doing everything in their power to see that these facts do not come to light.

We have a Republican Party, which is a party of voter suppression, which is trying to ensure that Democrats are not having their votes counted fairly and it is very interesting we just had an election, you know we watched Donald Trump cry foul about the election when in fact we know that was the big lie.


Last night, we had an election in Virginia where the Republican candidate for Governor won. And lo and behold, we didn't hear any cries of foul in this election, and I think we've got to look at this larger question of a cover up and manipulation of our voting system to the disadvantage of democracy and a coup occurred here by the President of the United States -- attempted coup.

COOPER: Bob, mentioned there are 20 new subpoenas referenced by January 6th Committee Chairman Benny Thompson. He didn't say who they are for, only hinting that some of the people have been written about and some haven't. Who else did you write about that may have valuable information who hasn't already been subpoenaed?

WOODWARD: Well, I think you have to conduct a dragnet, and that's exactly what they're doing. Robert Costa and I in doing our book, "Peril," we found this Eastman memo, which is really a blueprint for a coup and crime in a very clear way, and we found that just by calling people, in fact, we got that from Republican sources who were Trump supporters who were willing to provide it. It wasn't classified. It wasn't secret.

But Carl is right. There is a cover up going on here. The question is, when you get into the courts, the President, the former President, does have some rights here. Unfortunately, there is a right to conceal information. It certainly is wrong in this committee, and what I worry about is, do we really have a mechanism in this committee or in the Justice Department to get to the bottom and explain what happened?

And this is where Carl's exact -- I mean, you really have to do that. This was -- what happened on January 6th was a monumental event. It was unparalleled, and there are all kinds of avenues to pursue. And, quite frankly, I think there is a giant responsibility again, on the media to do the reporting.

BERNSTEIN: That's right.

WOODWARD: Get these documents, get the witnesses, find out precisely what happened.

Senator Ervin, who led the Senate Watergate Committee used to tell Carl and myself, we want to call everyone up here to get their story, and we are going to give them an opportunity to exonerate themselves. And I think that can apply here. They should -- everyone should testify. I think there is not just the constitutional, I think there is a moral and a cultural responsibility to explain this and not let it drift off into the fog of history.

COOPER: But Carl, as Bob was saying, I mean, does Congress have the abilities, the tools to actually get people to be able to, you know, exonerate themselves? You know, I mean -- you know, how likely is it that the former President's allies, Steve Bannon, for example, he has already been found in contempt you know will be able to successfully stonewall or at least slow down the investigation through legal challenges until midterms and Republicans win back control both chambers?

BERNSTEIN: Well, that's the question. It's a question of the clock ticking in the midterms which seem to indicate, from what we see so far, that the Republicans will probably capture the House and close this thing down. But let's look at the bigger picture for a moment, including what Bob just said about the press, but it's not just the press. The business of this nation needs to be above almost everything else.

We are in a Civil War in this country, and the business and the secessionists are winning the Civil War right now. The Republican Party of Donald Trump is winning this Civil War. It's winning this battle. And it needs to be the business of the nation to find out what happened in this most authoritarian, grievous attack on our democracy since the Confederacy and it means all of our institutions, the press, the institutions, chambers of commerce.

It ought to be the national business to find out with every stone being turned up, what happened here. We cannot let this lie, and as for the press, it needs to be our unflagging top of our agenda until we find out and find these witnesses as Bob has started the process in his book with Bob Costa in "Peril."


There are other witnesses. This is what we need to be doing. And the secessionists are planning and banking on us dropping this fight and our institutions not being up to the moment and this is our job above all else.

COOPER: Yes. Carl Bernstein and Bob Woodward, I appreciate it, gentlemen. Thank you both.

Coming up next, yet more breaking news. What we're learning about a reported second grand jury impaneled to investigate the former President's company. One of the correspondents who broke the story and legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin, when we return.


COOPER: It's not just rough going in Federal Court for the former President. According to new reporting tonight in "The Washington Post," he is also now facing a second grand jury convened by Manhattan District Attorney Cy Vance. "The Washington Post's" Jonathan O'Connell shares a byline in this and joins us now.

So Jonathan, what does your reporting suggest about how significant this grand jury might be?

JONATHAN O'CONNELL, BUSINESS REPORTER, "THE WASHINGTON POST": Well, it's hard to know. What we know is that the new grand jury is going to be looking at the way that Trump and his company sort of valuate their properties.

And we know from some of the previous reporting and some court filings that the New York A.G., Letitia James and also Cy Vance have looked at the way that Trump presents the properties to banks versus how he presents them to tax appraisers.

So for instance, most real estate developers, when they go to a bank, they are sort of boasting about the value of their property, and when they go the tax appraiser, they're sort of, you know, they don't want to be charged too much. They sort of are more sort of humble about how much it could be worth.


The question is whether Trump did this in an illegal way, or whether he just did it sort of in a way that a lot of real estate developers do it.

COOPER: So, I mean, are these new areas potential legal exposure that emerged? I mean because we've sort of there's been reporting on this before about, you know, him, kind of speaking on both sides of his mouth to different people, or is this just a continuation with the DAs office has been doing for some time now?

O'CONNELL: Well, you'll recall the grand jury that is expiring right now, they charged Trump CFO, Allen Weisselberg, in the Trump's company, with a different type of sort of tax fraud, which is they alleged sort of a systematic way in which the company would compensate employees with apartments or homes or cars or school tuition in a way that would avoid taxes. And the CFO Allen Weisselberg but not guilty and sort of the company. This is a different kind of category of allegations. It's saying that the company knowingly misled tax appraisers or misled banks or ensures that we're providing the company with either loans or insurance policies in a way that would violate law.

COOPER: We should also point out the former president has not been charged. Has the Trump Organization responded? O'CONNELL: Well, they did not respond today. Although they've -- Eric Trump, the president's son and President Trump have both called these investigations really politically motivated. They sometimes point to Letitia James, who's now running for governor, and some comments she made running for AG where she said she was going to take down Trump or come after Trump, before she was even Attorney General. So they really view these as politically motivated investigations.

COOPER: Jonathan O'Connell, its fascinating reporting. Appreciate it. Thank you.

O'CONNELL: Sure. Thank you.

COOPER: Joining us now, CNN's chief legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin.

So Jeff, another grand jury investigating the Trump Organization. How concerned should the former president be?

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN CHIEF LEFAL ANALYST: Well, it's it is important, because the existing case, the Weisselberg case, is really a small potatoes case. I mean, it is very bad news for Weisselberg personally, but the amounts of money at issue the kinds of crime, you know, paying for a car, and not paying taxes on it paying for tuition, at his grandchildren's school, not paying taxes on it, when it is a criminal case. But it is certainly not one that really implicates the former president in any way that's apparent from the face of the indictment.

The investigation of the double booking as you were talking about it, you know, giving one valuation to tax authorities, one valuation to banks, that's a potentially much more serious case, also one that potentially implicates the former president. So, it's a big deal. But we should, of course, say, just because there's an investigation doesn't mean they're going to be any charges coming out of it.

COOPER: Also, I mean, just how tough of an investigation might be. I mean, as long as you know, Allen Weisselberg isn't cooperating with prosecutors, there's no public indication, at least he is. Who else would know what he knows? Or is this all public? I mean, this all documents, is kind of a document investigation that they can get access to, because it involves banks and taxes.

TOOBIN: Well, you're right, that it's very hard to make a white collar case without someone cooperating from the inside. However, you know, there is at least the possibility obviously, I haven't seen the documents, and I don't. And so, I don't know, what they say and how different they are. But if you start with the identical property, evaluating it, ones for the taxes, ones for banks, that's, that's potentially a big problem, something that that could be the basis for a criminal case. But if you want to charge someone with intentional misconduct, with an intentional crime, which is how most crimes are defined, you really have to have someone on the inside who says, you know, we knew we were lying to the tax authorities. We knew we were lying to the banks, but we did it anyway.

That's why Weisselberg is such a potential -- is such an important potential witness but he's not a witness yet. All he is a defendant and he's not guilty either at least not so far.

COOPER: Jeff Toobin, appreciate it.

Coming up next, powerful testimony in the Kyle Rittenhouse trial. Why the judge today kicked wonder off the case.



COOPER: A juror in the Kyle Rittenhouse homicide trial was dismissed today for telling you a deputy that tasteless joke earlier this week about the police shooting of Jacob Blake. Rittenhouse now 18 is facing seven charges including first degree intentional homicide for shooting and killing two men during the unrest following Blake shooting last summer in Kenosha, Wisconsin. He's pleaded not guilty to all charges.

CNN's Omar Jimenez tonight reports on a day of highly charged testimony.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You can all be seated, every can be seated.

OMAR JIMINEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A third day of testimony in the trial of Kyle Rittenhouse focused on how the shooting began the night of August 25th, 2020. Starting with the killing of Joseph Rosenbaum, one of two killed by Rittenhouse that night.


JIMENEZ (voice-over): Richie McGinniss video director from the website The Daily Caller was the fifth witness called by prosecutors and the trial was emphasized Rosenbaum was unarmed.

THOMAS BINGER, ASST. DISTRICT ATTORNEY, KENOSHA COUNTY: Did you ever see a weapon on Mr. Rosenbaum?

MCGINNISS: I did not.

BINGER: Never saw a gun on Mr. Rosenbaum?

MCGINNISS: I did not.

BINGER: Never saw him have a knife.


BINGER: Never saw him have a club or a bat or a chain or anything like that.

MCGINNISS: I just saw that the bag that was thrown that was it.

JIMENEZ (voice-over): Prosecutor Thomas Binger took jurors to the moment of the shooting, MCGINNISS: I realized that Mr. Rosenbaum was continuing to advance and that Mr. Rittenhouse was standing still based on Mr. Rosenbaum's the way that he was running and then eventually lunging towards the front portion of the rifle. It was clear to me that something with the weapon was about to happen and I didn't want to be on the wrong side of that.

JIMENEZ (voice-over): Rosenbaum was. McGinniss was on the scene that night documenting the unrest and even spoke to Rittenhouse before shots were fired.

KYLE RITTENHOUSE, SUSPECT: There somebody hurt, I'm running into harm's way.


JIMENEZ (voice-over): Not long after.

MCGINNISS: Clip over real quick.

JIMENEZ (voice-over): He was forced to render emergency aid.

MCGINNISS: I was under his right shoulder, there's another individual under his left shoulder. And then there were maybe one or two people carrying his legs. And I was just telling him that we're going to have a beer together afterwards and it was all going to be OK. It seemed that his eye was looking at me. But it was kind of rolling back. And then when I started talking, it rolled back kind of towards me, and I was looking at him. So, I'm not sure if he heard me, but I think perhaps he did.

BINGER: Did he say anything?


JIMINEZ (voice-over): During cross examination.

MCGINNISS: He's in a low position running --

JIMENEZ (voice-over): The defense focused on why Rosenbaum's pursuit of Rittenhouse continues.

MARK RICHARDS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Could have stopped at any time once he sees an individual. Correct?

MCGINNISS: I assumed he could have. Yes.

RICHARDS: He kept advancing.


RICHARDS: And he continues to advance until he makes a lunge for the weapon. Correct?

MCGINNISS: Yes. It appeared that he was lunging for the front portion of the weapon. RICHARDS: OK. Which would be the business end of an AR15?


JIMENEZ (voice-over): Trying to paint the picture that Rosenbaum was the aggressor as he lunged and Rittenhouse was defending himself.

RICHARDS: You know, as you sit here today that he yelled the words, f- you, but the whole words. Correct?


RICHARDS: OK. What was the tone of his voice as he yell then?

MCGINNISS: Very angry.

JIMENEZ (voice-over): Rosenbaum's demeanor was the focus of the next witness called as he began his testimony, including one encounter in particular.

RYAN BALCH, WITNESS: You guys know, I catching you guys along tonight (INAUDIBLE).

BINGER: And he said that to you.

BALCH: Correct.

BINGER: Did he say that to the defendant as well?

BALCH: The defendant was there. So yes.

JIMENEZ (voice-over): But words never became actions as Ryan Baulch who was with Rittenhouse that night later laid out.

BINGER: Did you ever actually see Mr. Rosenbaum physically injure anyone that night?


BINGER: You had your Glock pistol on your hip? Correct?

BALCH: That's correct.

BINGER: Did he ever reach for that?


BINGER: Did he ever touch that?


BINGER: Did he ever touch you?


(END VIDEOTAPE) COOPER: Omar Jimenez joins now from Kenosha. The first one is mentioned in your piece, at one point he testified the Rosenbaum was advancing toward Kyle Rittenhouse while Rittenhouse himself was standing still. Do you have a sense of why the prosecution call on this witness and how his narrative fits in their case?

JIMENEZ: Yes, Anderson. Well, when you go back to opening statements from Thomas Binger, the prosecutor one of the things he said or one of the questions he said is going to be central here is was this level of force necessary to prevent imminent death or greater bodily harm? As part of that examination, he also got Richie McGinniss to say that Rosenbaum was not armed and that there was no way to know what his mindset was at the time. And when the exchange with the later witness Ryan Balch when it said that there was basically hundreds of people out on the street that night and that everyone was going through the same levels of stress and chaos, having the same sort of verbal altercations yet only one person shot someone that night being Rittenhouse.

But of course, the defense will likely jump on a few of the things said today by witnesses to go into their own arguments about why they believe this was self-defense. Anderson.

COOPER: Yes. Omar Jimenez, appreciate it. Thank you.

Coming up, why the COVID pandemic shouldn't be measured in life and death. A new and alarming report from our Dr. Sanjay Gupta and what the virus can do to our bodies.



COOPER: Seven and hundred fifty thousand Americans dead due to COVID. That is the milestone we hit about 24 hours ago that we reported on last night's program. But tonight a different perspective on that number in the virus because when people get COVID it's not always just about life and death. It's also about damage, the body, and the brain. And for some survivors that damage can be profound.

Here's CNN chief medical correspondent Dr. Sanjay Gupta.


JIM SELLS, COVID-19 SURVIVOR: Social media is full of this information to address your agenda. The algorithms and just what you want to hear right to you.

SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Like tens of millions of Americans, 71-year-old Jim Sells saw misinformation like this on social media all over Facebook. As a result, the retired pilot and former marathon runner decided not to get vaccinated.

SELLS: They constantly repeat the high survival rate, out of 100 people that COVID affects the vast majority can stay home and take an aspirin. GUPTA (on-camera): What do people think the survival rate is?

SELLS: What they post is like 98 and a half to 99.

GUPTA (on-camera): It's a 99% survival rate. That means one out of 100 people who get it die.


GUPTA (on-camera): If you apply that to the country, that means you know, nearly 4 million people will die. And then there's another group who will say well hang out, so I'm 99% good, right? What's the big deal?

SELLS: Right.

GUPTA (voice-over): But COVID isn't just about life and death. It's also about damage, damage to the body.

SELLS: I tested positive for COVID. Two days later, I was talking to a friend and really exhausted. And she recommended that I go to the hospital and get a breathing treatment. So Lisa drove me to the hospital. They wouldn't let her in.

LISA SELLS, JIM'S WIFE: I didn't get any sleep at night worrying about him. I did a lot of praying. Anytime you tried to call the hospital to get to the emergency room, they would ask where he is and he's in ER and they're working on them. And so, I had no information.

ARVIND PONNAMBALAM, PULMONOLOGIST, PIEDMONT FAYETTE HOSPITAL: Mr. Sells is a gentleman who presented to our emergency department after about 10 days of fairly typical symptoms for COVID-19 pneumonia. He had had a cough and increasing shortness of breath, he immediately required a high flow oxygen to help keep his oxygen levels in the healthy range.

GUPTA (voice-over): Dr. Arvind Ponnambalam is a pulmonologist at Piedmont Fayette hospital in a suburb of Atlanta. By his own account, he has now seen hundreds of COVID-19 patients throughout the pandemic like Jim Sells.


PONNAMBALAM: To avoid undue stress on His heart on his brain and other vital organs on a cellular level, it took five times more oxygen for us to get him to just where it was safe.

SELLS: They put a mask an oxygen mask on sensitive down real tight, I started putting the heart monitors on me. And then asked me if I wanted to be resuscitated, and I'm in total shock. And then she said, I don't know if we can help you. But we're going to do all we can.

GUPTA (on-camera): Did they spend time telling you what this virus was doing to your body or explaining what exactly was happening?

SELLS: They showed me that chest X-ray and an -- he's, the pulmonary doctor said look, it's supposed to look like two black panels. And what I'm looking at is two white sheets.

PONNAMBALAM: So this is a CAT scan and Mr. Sells' chest. And as we scroll down is the very top parts of his lungs. You can already see effects of COVID pneumonia, mostly on his left lung here. But as we move down to the middle and lower lobes, especially on the right lung, you see some very diffuse opacification and involvement of COVID pneumonia.

GUPTA (voice-over): When someone like Jim becomes infected with COVID, the virus can trigger lots of inflammation, making it harder to breathe, and sometimes that can scar the tissue and stiffen the lungs.

PONNAMBALAM: It's the lack of oxygen and its toll it takes on the rest of your organs.

GUPTA (voice-over): About 15% of all hospitalized COVID patients experience some sort of kidney damage, many of them needing dialysis. Like Jim, 43-year-old Travis Campbell also wasn't vaccinated. The noise of social media was overwhelming. In the fairly rural part of Virginia where he lived, COVID just didn't seem urgent. But after three days of being extremely fatigued and having difficulty breathing, Travis was admitted to the hospital.

TRAVIS CAMPBELL, COVID-19 SURVIVOR: You're in a fog. Just looking make sense.

GUPTA (voice-over): Travis' wife and two of his kids had also become sick with COVID. But while they got better at home, he got worse, keeping his family and friends updated on Facebook.

CAMPBELL: COVID starts doing look fun. And with the pneumonia, start plotting too. So we've been fighting. It's tough when your oxygen drops because you can't breathe. So, you start having panic attacks.

GUPTA (voice-over): One analysis of several studies found that between 20 to 30% of all critically ill patients will develop blood clots like Travis did, potentially causing heart attacks and strokes. Some experts now argue that COVID is probably more of a vascular disease than a respiratory one. Because of its impact on the blood vessels that line so many of our organs. Things became so serious that Travis wrestled with his own mortality.

CAMPBELL: Last night I came to the realization that chances of me not being able to give my daughter away at her wedding was greater than walking out.

GUPTA (voice-over): Jim was hospitalized for 16 days. And nearly 11 weeks later, he's still trying to regain strength.

SELLS: I'm moving along. I'm about 40% now after two months. What I lack is duration, stamina, and I don't do anything strenuous because that'll send my oxygen way too low right away. I don't want anybody to go through what I went through. We really need the world to know the truth and the consequences of not being vaccinated.

GUPTA (on-camera): You're obviously talking about this. Is this going to affect your social sort of interactions with people? Are you going to lose friends over this?

SELLS: I already have.

GUPTA (on-camera): So you get sick, you go to the hospital. You almost die and you're losing friends over this.

SELLS: Yes, yes.

GUPTA (voice-over): Travis has also since left the hospital, but like nearly one in 20 unvaccinated people diagnosed with COVID-19, he is still experiencing many of the symptoms at least two months after his diagnosis.

CAMPBELL: The fog, the real confusion. It's every day very forgetful headaches, still on oxygen and struggling to breathe air. It's just been one thing after another.

GUPTA (voice-over): But unlike before he went into the hospital. He is now part of the at least 80% of American adults who've gotten at least one shot

CAMPBELL: That shot could have prevented all of this. Four weeks in ICU, just stop off at your local pharmacy. Vaccines free. Nothing political about it. Check in get it done.



COOPER: Sanjay joins us now. I know you said Travis received his first dose the vaccine. Has Jim?

GUPTA: Not yes, but he's going to get it on Monday. We just checked in with him. And, you know, it's been a very contentious topic where he lives the people won't talk to him just because he's come on and talked about the fact that he's going to get vaccinated, but he's going to do it and he's going to get his boosters too when his time is due.

COOPER: Seventy thousand new cases a day still, almost 50,000 Americans hospitalized right now for COVID. How's the medical industry going to have to adapt to all this?

GUPTA: I mean, there may be entire wings dedicated to long COVID, maybe even hospitals just to this because we're talking to potentially millions of people dealing with this. There's a study out of Mayo that just came Anderson, saying that there's about 1.3 million people who are out of work right now, due to COVID. And, you know, the numbers keep growing. So it's a problem.

COOPER: Sanjay, appreciate it. We'll be right back.


COOPER: It's busy night. The news continues. Let's go to Chris for "CUOMO PRIME TIME." Chris. CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST: All right, thank you Anderson.

I am Chris Cuomo and welcome to "PRIME TIME."


Learn or lose? That's the proposition for Democrats.