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Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees
At Least Three Killed, Eight Injured In Michigan High School Shooting; Israel Health Minister Says Indications That Vaccine Protects Against Omicron; GOP Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene Attacks Fellow Republican In Defense Of Rep. Boebert; House GOP Conference In Disarray As Extremist Members Boebert And Greene Attack Conservative Republicans; GA Secy. Of State Spoke With Jan. 6 Committee About Election Lies; Rep. Thompson: Jan. 6 Committee Has Received "Probably 6,000 E-mails" From Meadows; Appeals Court Judges Skeptical Of Trump's Arguments For Blocking Release Of His January 6 Documents. Aired 8-9p ET
Aired November 30, 2021 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: All right, Vicky. Thank you very much. It's going to be incredible to watch all this. And Vicky, I know you're going to have more on this when your series "Chasing Ghislaine" airs on Discovery ID this Friday.
Thank you so much for your time. I'm glad to see you.
And thanks to all of you for joining us. AC 360 starts right now.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: It's hard to say good evening when a school in this country has been described by local authorities as a quote "fairly large crime scene." That's where we begin tonight, at yet another school where kids died.
This time, the Detroit area, Oxford High School, Oakland County, Michigan. At least three students killed by gunfire, eight other people hurt, a 15-year-old boy in custody. According to the Gun Violence Archive, this is the 651st mass shooting in this country this year. They define mass shootings as four or more people killed or wounded, not including the shooter.
And the fact that there even is such a thing as a gun violence archive certainly says a lot, mostly obscene. But as tempting as it always is to simply be numb to it all, try to think of all the kids who don't have that option tonight as they try to cope with what they have gone through. There isn't enough numbness in the world to blur the memories that they now have or blunt the grieving they have to go through or race even a second of what even the lucky ones endured today.
Reporting from the scene for us tonight, Stephanie Parkinson from local CNN affiliate WEYI. Stephanie, what's the latest?
STEPHANIE PARKINSON, WEYI: We know right now that 11 people were shot today and of those, three of them passed away, a 16-year-old male, a 14-year-old female, and a 17-year-old female all killed inside Oxford High School in Oakland County, Michigan today.
Now, we don't have their identities yet. They are still waiting to release those at this time. What we do know about when this all happened, too, is a very quick response. We're talking within five minutes of that initial 9-1-1 call that they had that gunman in custody with Police Deputies here, Sheriff Deputies in Oakland County. There were more than a hundred though 9-1-1 calls that came in to the police.
And this 15-year-old student, we don't know too much about this student, but we know that he was a student at Oxford High School and that he was using a semi-automatic handgun today when all of this happened.
Now, I did ask the Oakland County Undersheriff if he legally had that handgun, or if it was maybe registered to a family member, he wouldn't answer those questions yet tonight, but said obviously that's part of their investigation. He did tell us that there was a search warrant executed on his home. We don't know yet what that may be revealed to them, but we are waiting for an update in the next couple of hours.
Meanwhile, from those in this community in Oxford, a very small, close-knit community, they are worried -- they are wondering and they're worried that there were warning signs that this could have happened in their school. Now the Undersheriff though with Oakland County tells me don't believe everything you hear or see, read on social media, because they are still actively investigating this.
COOPER: And what do we know about those who are injured?
PARKINSON: Right now, we do know that two of them are in surgery, or at least were as of about an hour ago, and there are six others who are in stable conditions tonight. We don't really have much more detail than that at this time.
COOPER: And is the suspect cooperating with police, did they say?
PARKINSON: Not really. He won't speak to them right now. So as far as the investigation goes, he's not. However, he didn't put up a fight or much of one at all when they confronted him inside the school when he had the weapon. So, it was relatively easy it sounds like to take him into custody earlier today.
We don't know if he had any more ammunition though at that time. They're not sure if that prevented anything more from happening inside the school or if he was kind of done with what he set out to do or not, we are still waiting for more of that kind of information to come in, but he is not talking.
And his parents, investigator spoke with his parents today and they said that they're hiring an attorney and they don't want him to talk either. Obviously, being a minor, they need their permission, the parents' permission to even speak with him. So the Undersheriff is hoping something might change in the coming hours or days, but for now, he's not talking. COOPER: And Stephanie, I just want to go back to something you said
right in the beginning that from the first 9-1-1 call to him being taken into custody, you said that was a five-minute timeframe.
PARKINSON: That was and part of the reason for that is there is a School Resource Officer in this school at Oxford. And so that Resource Officer was on site, I believe at the time. That Resource Officer was part of the arrest there, but there was another officer there, so that does mean that there was still a quick response time to get more officers there to back that School Resource Officer up.
COOPER: It is fascinating. Stephanie Parkinson appreciate the reporting. Thanks so much, Stephanie.
Shortly before airtime, I spoke with one of the students who was in his classroom when shots rang out, 17-year-old senior, Aiden, Page.
COOPER: Aiden, thank you so much for being with us. I understand you were in your classroom right before class began when you heard something. What happened?
AIDEN PAGE, OXFORD HIGH SCHOOL SENIOR: We heard two gunshots and after that, my teacher ran into the room, locked it, we barricaded and then we covered the windows until it ended.
COOPER: Did you know they were gunshots right away.
PAGE: I just heard two bangs, and then I saw my teacher run into the room, lock down. I was like, okay, this is a shooter.
COOPER: So your teacher really reacted very quickly. What happened? I understand there was another teacher in the room as well.
PAGE: Yes, another teacher entered, just grab some hand sanitizer real quickly, and then the shots came off and then she ran.
COOPER: And I understand she called to her classroom because she couldn't get back to her classroom. What happened with that?
PAGE: Basically, she was like -- can anybody -- does anybody have freshman in my class? And then a student did and then she used her phone to call them.
COOPER: So she got the phone number for freshmen in her class from a student in your class?
COOPER: And she was like trying to give instructions to her class about what to do?
PAGE: The class basically went into lockdown already. There was a student injured and she was kind of instructing them and supporting them as well.
COOPER: So a student had been shot in that classroom?
PAGE: Yes. He was shot in the leg.
COOPER: Wow. And how long were you in lockdown for? Did you hear anything while you were in lockdown?
PAGE: There were general announcements being made throughout and we were locked down for about an hour.
COOPER: So what -- the two shots that you heard, what do you believed were shots, is that the only sound of gunfire that you heard?
PAGE: There may have been other gunfire though, those are the most memorable to me.
COOPER: And we're looking at a picture that you took of what looks like a bullet hole with a lot of chairs piled up. What is that image of?
PAGE: There -- we made this barricade and there is a bullet hole that shot through our door.
COOPER: So, the shooter was close enough to actually shoot into your classroom through the door.
COOPER: Wow. You know, when you say when it's a lockdown, what actually did you do? I mean, obviously, you're in a classroom and I know you've had training on this. Do you -- do you try to hide in different places? Do you try to -- what's the instruction?
PAGE: Basically, we lock the door, we have this jammer called a night lock. We barricade it as best as we can and then we try to hide.
COOPER: And I understand students -- some students were trying to arm themselves with whatever they could find.
PAGE: Yes. We grabbed calculators, we grabbed scissors, and just in case the shooter got in, and we had to attack him.
COOPER: I can't imagine being in that situation for, I think, you said it was like an hour or so standing there with a calculator thinking you might try to use that as a weapon or a scissors or a book. How were the other students reacting?
PAGE: Some were crying, some were trying to support others, others were trying to come up with some ideas that possibly carried out just in case.
COOPER: And I know you've had training on this, but obviously when it actually happens, it's -- you know, there's nothing that can really prepare you for it. What was it like for you? PAGE: It was insane. The very first thing in my head was, "This is
actually happening. I'm going to text my family say I love them, just in case if I were to die," and then after everything kind of calmed down for a second, I was able to like get my breath and kind of rationalize things.
COOPER: In looking on it now, I mean, it must seem that -- what does it seem like now? Does it seems just as insane?
PAGE: Yes. It's definitely going to be weird coming back especially with knowing that people have been injured and that there are a few students who have died as well.
COOPER: I'm so sorry for you and the other students went through and I'm glad you're with your family and I appreciate you taking the time to talk to us.
PAGE: Thank you.
COOPER: A senior in high school dealing with this.
Perspective now from CNN senior law enforcement analyst and former F.B.I. Deputy Director, Andrew McCabe; also CNN national security analyst and former Assistant D.H.S. Secretary, Juliette Kayyem.
Andrew, you and I sadly have talked about these school shootings many times, too many times before. The F.B.I. has looked closely, has done studies of all the school shootings, and a lot has been learned about that. Their quick reaction time, it seems like today may have been a result of what was learned from Columbine and others. When you hear the account from that student, Aiden, what stands out to you?
ANDREW MCCABE, CNN SENIOR LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Well, as the father of a 17-year-old senior in high school, I mean, it's absolutely chilling. And, you know, it has -- it forces me as I hope it does every American to ask the fundamental question of why are we putting our kids in the firing line when they go to school? Why? What is it about our country that we are awash in guns? And I say that as a gun owner, as someone who carried a gun for 21 years as a law enforcement officer, but the fact is that our situation is this country, firearms is out of control, and the perfect evidence of that is that our children are at risk when they go to school. It's just head spinning, it really is.
COOPER: Juliette, it's also -- I mean, obviously, look, we've known about, you know, schools having active shooter training for years now. I've gone to schools where it's done to see how it's done up close. Just the normalness of this is so extraordinary. That young men had had multiple trainings, and they instantly knew what to do. And they took their positions, and they grabbed calculators and scissors and whatever else they could with the knowledge that they might have to fight if the shooter came in. JULIETTE KAYYEM, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: With staplers, right?
I mean, that is -- that's where we are.
We've created this narrative that somehow we're equipping ourselves to deal with these school shootings. So we first tell kids, you know, run or hide or fight and in that order. Well, they did everything right today, and still three kids died. And then we say, well, let's just train our law enforcement, and we'll have all these drills and make sure law enforcement can get there. Well, last count 25 agencies and 60 ambulances showed up at the school and still three teenagers died.
And then we say, oh, let's put armed guards in these high schools. Well, this high school had one there, and he probably did a lot of good in terms of stopping the violence, still not enough. I mean, this is -- let's keep them home, like you know, this is the next solution, and so I think, if we just realize now that that five minutes, everything going right, and we've -- and in terms of response, and we still have three teenagers dead, five injured, and one gun and one suspect, and that's all it took.
So my frustration is, the case frustration as well, I mean, this is you know, this -- we can't do anything more at this stage.
COOPER: Also Andrew, I mean, you look at -- again, I go back to the famous F.B.I. report, and I don't have it in front of me, I haven't read it in a couple of months. But as I remember, most deaths in in all of these shootings take place within the first several minutes. I mean, the killings take place immediately. That's why a quick reaction from police is so essential.
But as Juliette said, I mean, five minutes from the time the 9-1-1 call goes in to the time of the apprehension, that's incredibly fast. And yet, all the lives have already been lost.
MCCABE: Every one of these incidents, Anderson, we study and we learn and we get better, right? So Virginia Tech years ago, pushed this issue of getting the first responders to actually enter the building with long guns to be able to fight back that sort of thing. Our folks in the F.B.I. Critical Incident Response Group, along with their colleagues at D.H.S. were instrumental in developing the training that's now been pushed out hundreds of thousands of places across the country.
The reactions of people, of victims are better, the response of law enforcement of that is better, but it is never going to be fast enough to prevent this from happening. And as long as guns are readily available to people like you know, children at home to use them to kill themselves or others or young, emotionally challenged young adults who go into high school and bring something like that to a high school, you can't -- there is no way to stop that with training or prevention. It's just -- you're always behind the curve.
COOPER: Juliette, the School Superintendent said there were no metal detectors in the school. I mean, is there evidence that security measures like metal detectors deter shooters? KAYYEM: They might, but a determined shooter would have out in the
playground or the parking lot and then somehow gotten into the building, so a determined shooter is not going to be stopped by this. Our understanding, you know right now or at least with the questions that we have is why did he stop shooting? Was it because the Resource Officer, the Police Resource Officer confronted him? Was there something wrong with the gun? Did he run out of bullets? That's going to be important in terms of sort of what happened in that moment.
The other question I have is, how does he get possession of this gun? The parents are likely keeping quiet as well. Was it a family gun? All of those are going to come to bear.
But once again, you know, yes, so you put up the metal detectors. So now we have a parking lot. So then you put up a wall around the parking lot and then you know, okay, well then a determined killer with a gun that can kill or harm eight or nine people in five minutes is not going to be dissuaded by a metal detector.
So it's both the motivation, but it's also the access and both, right? All of the above at this stage.
COOPER: All right, Juliette Kayyem and Andrew McCabe, I appreciate it. Thank you.
Up next, we have breaking news and potentially promising remarks by Israel's Health Minister about how current COVID vaccines may help protect against the omicron variant.
And just when you thought things couldn't get worse on Capitol Hill, a Republican Congresswoman is now under attack just because she called out another congresswoman's bigotry. Keeping them honest, ahead.
COOPER: Well, some potentially good news for the fight against the omicron variant. Tonight, the Israeli Health Minister said quote, "Indications show that people who have received the coronavirus vaccine booster are protected." The Health Minister's word against the new omicron variant.
Now, the Health Minister didn't offer any specifics beyond that, but said they'd have more information in the coming days. That comes on the heels of a South African doctor telling CNN's John Berman on "New Day" this morning that the majority of cases of the variant that she has seen had been mild.
Also a White House briefing today, the Director of the C.D.C. announced it is expanding surveillance at four major international airports as the number of countries detecting the variant climbs to 20. This, as we're learning about possible new testing requirements for travelers entering the U.S. Our chief White House correspondent, Kaitlan Collins joins us now with the latest. So, what about these new testing requirements?
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: So what this would essentially do and we should note, no final decisions have been made, but would shorten the time period in which you can be tested before you return or get on a flight coming to the United States. Regardless if you're a U.S. citizen, or someone who is just visiting the United States.
Right now for vaccinated travelers, you have to get a test about three days before your departure date, but apparently tonight, officials are deliberating based on our reporting, shortening that time frame, Anderson, into one day before your flight, with which you would have to be tested to get back into the United States.
But the other thing they're considering that is especially noteworthy is having travelers, even U.S. citizens who are vaccinated or permanent legal residents who are vaccinated potentially get tested again after they get back to the United States several days after their flight because officials have said for a few weeks now that they believe that's kind of a lapse in the rules here, which is that you could certainly get tested before you get on your flight to the United States, but maybe you develop symptoms once you're back, maybe you start to test positive once you're back in the United States, and then of course, that causes issues.
So these are things that are under consideration. They actually were deliberating about this tonight and they haven't made any final decisions. But there is a signal we could learn more about this as soon as tomorrow because the White House just announced that Dr. Fauci is going to be joining Jen Psaki at the press briefing tomorrow afternoon.
COOPER: Do officials expect the definition of what it means to be fully vaccinated to change in the coming weeks?
COLLINS: So far, no. They said right now that is not changing, that it is still fully vaccinated if you've got that mRNA vaccine, the Moderna, the Pfizer that it is fully vaccinated if you've gotten two shots, but of course, the question of whether or not that changes remains to be seen, because you've seen the President saying as he did this week that if you got vaccinated before June 1, fully vaccinated, it's time for a booster shot and you've seen other nations move to fully vaccinated means you've gotten three shots now.
So whether or not that changes remains to be seen, but for now, it has not changed -- Anderson.
COOPER: All right, Kaitlan Collins, appreciate it. Thanks. Joining us now our chief medical correspondent, Dr. Sanjay Gupta, and the Dean of Brown University School of Public Health, Dr. Ashish Jha.
Sanjay, first of all, what do you make the news that the Israeli Health Minister says there are indications, his word or their word, that people who received a vaccine booster are protected against omicron.
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, I mean, that sounds optimistic, you know, and that's potentially good news.
COOPER: I mean, it's vague, but --
GUPTA: I mean, these are all of these signals we heard. Yes, I mean, we heard something similar from the South African Health Minister spokesperson as well saying, you know, you've got some 60 million people living in South Africa, 16 million, roughly had been vaccinated, but the majority of who they're seeing testing positive are the unvaccinated. So these are some early clues, and they have to see how this continues, too, that data continues to hold up.
One thing I think is interesting, Anderson, if you look at the trajectory in South Africa over the past few variants and sort of look what has happened, the original variant and then beta, delta, you see that sort of this interesting, you know, these interesting peaks, I don't know if we have the graphic, we can put it up.
But basically, you see a significant surge and then a period of quieting, and then another significant surge. Keep in mind, they didn't start vaccinating until February of this year, and they still have pretty low vaccination rates. This graph is really important, Anderson, it tells a story, first of all that infection acquired immunity, people who get immunity from having been previously infected doesn't seem to last very long, three to four months. Again, you're looking at a largely unvaccinated community.
But also look at the far right side of that. It's been a relatively quiet time in terms of COVID in South Africa, it's late spring, they don't have a -- you know, it is warmer weather. They're coming out of the flu season. And now, omicron is sort of taking off.
It is not competing against delta is my point, so we don't really know if this is going to be more transmissible than delta because it's not really been a foot race against delta in South Africa. It's become dominant, but there was nothing else really there at the time.
COOPER: Dr. Jha, Dutch health official said today that the omicron variant was detected in the Netherlands a week before two flights arrived there from South Africa. Does that tell you anything about the timeline of the variant and the surveillance that was happening in South Africa?
DR. ASHISH JHA, DEAN, BROWN UNIVERSITY SCHOOL OF PUBLIC HEALTH: Yes, I think it tells me two things. I mean, one, Anderson, it says that there is good epidemiological reason to believe that this variant probably started circulating in people late October, that by the way, would be good news, it would mean that it's not some super transmissible variant because it's been around for a little while.
And the second is that it didn't originate in South Africa, and I think most of us have assumed it did not originate in South Africa. I think South Africa has just this fabulous testing and surveillance, and they're very open and transparent about it and that's why they identified. It in fact, it could have started somewhere else and spread to South Africa.
COOPER: In a way, Dr. Jha, I mean, it's like, you know, in the Spanish -- what we know is the Spanish flu, it was reported in Spain because newspapers there weren't censored during World War I as many other countries censored their newspapers and Spain got blamed for the flu.
JHA: Absolutely, and that's why calling this a South African variant is just as wrong. It's that South Africa has done a great job identifying it, and thank goodness, they've given us an early warning to the rest of the world to get ready for this. They should really be applauded for this, and we should not be -- we shouldn't be putting the blame on anybody. It's not anybody's fault, but particularly not singling out South Africa in any negative way.
COOPER: So Sanjay, Dr. Fauci has noted that there was some doctors in South Africa reported the patients who have tested positive from the omicron variant have mild symptoms, it's too soon to tell what the severity of the illness will be. Do you agree with that?
GUPTA: Yes, I mean, we're watching the scientific process sort of unfold real time here, you know, so we're going to have a better idea, you know, within the next couple of weeks, maybe even sooner than that, in terms of figuring out the severity of things.
You know, if you look at the data in Gauteng Province, you know, in Johannesburg, and Dr. Jha makes the excellent point. No one is saying this originated there, but since we know it's there, it's become the dominant strain there. Take a look what's happened to hospitalizations over the last three weeks. They've been going up.
And as I mentioned, it's late spring. So this is not probably, you know, significant respiratory pathogen hospitalizations. These aren't particularly high numbers. They've been much higher at other times during the pandemic, but they have been going up. And I think that's something that people are paying attention to on the ground, is this being driven by this new variant or something else?
Regardless, we'll have a better idea of how -- what type of severe illness this causes over the next several days or a week or so.
COOPER: Dr. Jha, Kaitlan Collins was just reporting that one of the things the White House is looking at, the idea, it is not only shortening the window, instead of 72 hours before you fly, you have to get a test to come to the United States, maybe a day. But also, once you land in the U.S., you would have to get tested again, at some point, I guess, in a number of days. Unless someone is tested immediately at the airport by authorities, what infrastructure -- I mean, do we have an infrastructure in this country that would actually follow travelers two or three days later and make sure that they got tested? Who would do that?
JHA: Yes. No, not really, and to kind of set up such an infrastructure quickly would be hard. This is why I actually think people should get tested. You could test people at the airport with rapid antigen tests. COOPER: They do that in Israel, or they used to. I mean, I went in
the last couple of weeks.
JHA: Yes, exactly. And that would work well. I think we should consider doing that. There are other mechanisms, but asking people to go and get self-tested two or three days later, it's going to be pretty tough to enforce given the millions of people who fly into our country.
COOPER: Sanjay, the C.D.C. says they are testing one out of every seven samples taken from people diagnosed with COVID in the U.S. to see what variant they have. Is that good enough? I mean, is that -- it sounds like it is better than we've had in the past, or am I wrong?
GUPTA: Yes, it's much better than it's been in the past, it's been maybe 10 times better than it was at this time last year. Some 80,000 genomic sequences versus closer to 8,000. Keep in mind, though, you know, we're only doing about a million and a half tests per day. That also is better.
But I remember Dr. Jha's previous home institution, Harvard, their road to recovery, talked about the necessity for tens of millions of tests per day. So even on the front end, just in terms of the number of tests that we're doing in the first place is still too low, so that -- you know the surveillance has improved, but of a still small denominator overall, that may be part of the reason why we haven't found omicron yet.
It's almost certainly here in the United States, and no one should be surprised when we report that the first case has been officially found, but that may be driving why it's taking so long.
COOPER: All right, Sanjay, Dr. Jha, thanks so much, appreciate it.
A reminder to join us tomorrow night for a special CNN Town Hall on the new variant and what it means for all of us.
Next up, for us tonight, two Republic Congresswoman, new video surfaces of one's anti-Muslim bigotry, new attacks from the other against a colleague for simply calling it out as bigotry, almost total silence of course from the Republican leadership.
COOPER: On a night when kids have been shot to death in their school and people around the country are concerned about inflation and the new variant and a whole host of other real issues, it seems particularly pathetic to be dealing with the continuing attention seeking antics of the fringe wing of Republicans in Congress, but they are in Congress and they are raising a lot of money. Talking, of course, about Lauren Boebert and Marjorie Taylor Greene.
They have no real accomplishments. They've done no real work in Congress. They are in past understanding of how Washington works. They're really be called backbench nobodies back in the day. They have managed to somehow cow most people their party especially the leadership into silence. For that, they've been praised by the former president, of course, and have managed to raise many times more campaign dollars than the average lawmaker.
In Greene's case, according to the campaign finance database OpenSecrets, roughly six times the average. So for them, this is a pay day made even fatter, no doubt, by the continuing coverage. But to the extent that matters, who speaks for one of the two major political parties in this country, they sort of can't be ignored. And once again tonight, is people like Congresswoman Green and Boebert who were doing the talking, not their leadership.
Greene today attacking South Carolina Republican Nancy Mace, just for calling out Boebert's bigotry, "Mace," she tweeted, "you can back up off of at Lauren Boebert or just go hang with your real gal pals, the Jihad Squad, you're out of your league."
Congressman Mace tweeted back calling her back -- batcrap crazy and later in the day said this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. NANCY MACE (R-SC): She's crazy. She's insane. She's bad for the party. And I'm not going to put up with it and I'm not going to tolerate it. I'm not going to be bullied. I'm not a doormat.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: She's being attacked, remember, and she's Republican for doing nothing more than seeing bigotry for what it is and speaking about it. Congresswoman Lauren Boebert suggesting Congresswoman Ilhan Omar might be a suicide bomber and it certainly wasn't a one-and-done thing. Last night, we played her mark she made this month in which she talked about a police officer running for the elevator that she was in.
Well, today, CNN's KFILE uncovered this from September.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. LAUREN BOEBERT (R-CO): One of my staffers on his first day with me got into an elevator, in the Capitol. And in that elevator, we were joined by Ilhan Omar.
BOEBERT: Well, it was just us three in there and I looked over and I said, well, lookey there, it's the Jihad Squad. I do have to say. She doesn't have a backpack, she wasn't dropping it and running so we're good, so.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: So funny. So great. By the way, remember, in the new version of that story, there was a police officer running for the elevator and she's just embellishing as she goes along. Conservative icon Barry Goldwater wants to criticize her for saying extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. It makes you wonder what he'd have to say today about extremism in the defence of bigotry and silence in the face of that.
Joining us now, CNN Chief Political Correspondent Dana Bash and CNN Senior Political Analyst Kirsten Powers, author of wonderful new book, "Saving Grace: Speak Your Truth, Stay Centred, And Learn To Coexist With People Who Drive You Nuts." It's particularly apt.
KIRSTEN POWERS, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Yes, who could that be.
COOPER: Yes, you know. So, Dana, you've covered Congress a long time. There have been plenty of controversial lawmakers over the years. Does this feel like a whole other level to you, I mean, any pretence of, I mean, decency, or honesty, or actually even doing work for your constituents and for the country, it seems to been abandoned by certain members who are just out to rake in more money and build a social media profile by saying outrageous things.
DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: It's so true. Every one of the members of Congress, at this point, could benefit from a copy of Kirsten's book. But, you know, I think the answer to your question is that Nancy Mace, I mean, she's a Republican freshman. And she did, as you said, call out the Islamophobia, the racism that Lauren Boebert is engaged in with regard to Ilhan Omar and that is what raised the ire of Marjorie Taylor Greene.
And so she's -- that's -- this is -- looks like a schoolyard fight. It looks like -- you know, there's a lot of immature back and forth with emojis and, forgive me, but batshit crazy is the way that she put the emojis on her Twitter feed. But at the -- at its core, what Laura -- what Nancy Grace -- Nancy Grace -- Nancy Mace is trying to do is point out the things that you were saying, Anderson, that what Marjorie Taylor Greene and Lauren Boebert are trying to do is raise money off of crazy remarks and do that much more than legislate.
COOPER: And there is CNN reporting, Dana, tonight, late tonight, the Kevin McCarthy summon Marjorie Taylor Greene and Nancy Mace for separate meetings, told them to, quote, stop it, which suggests he's perhaps drawing some sort of false equivalency between them. And it seems like oh, he's stepping in to stop two women from fighting each other which is really just seems kind of odd that he's doing this moral equivalence thing. Does McCarthy have any real power at this point to controls conference (ph) -- and it seems like he's scared of Marjorie Taylor Greene.
BASH: Well, he --
POWERS: A separate -- oh.
COOPER: Sorry, that was for Dana, sorry. BASH: No, I did -- I'll just say, he isn't condemning what Lauren Boebert said, and not really what Marjorie Taylor Greene has done in the past. You're right. I mean, it is kind of giving it an equivalency and in some ways, the reason Nancy Mace is speaking out is -- and she's doing it in a very provocative way, clearly, intentionally, is because the leadership of her party in the House is not.
COOPER: Yes. Kirsten, so, I was talking to James Carville last night, he said Democrats should just ignore Boebert-Omar piece of this and that even Omar should, you know, not be talking about punishing Congressman Boebert but just saying what she's doing for people in her district focusing on what people actually care about and leaving the fringe to, you know, do the lunatic fringe stuff, because it takes you off message of talking about what you're actually doing in Congress for your constituents.
Congressman Omar said late tonight that she wants to see appropriate action taken against Boebert. Do you think Carville is right?
POWERS: I don't -- yes, I think that when somebody says the kinds of things that Lauren Boebert has said, I think that it has to be confronted. There's not a lot that can be done about it. But the idea that this is acceptable behavior, I mean, a responsible political party, if the Republican Party was, in fact, a responsible political party, would not tolerate this kind of behavior that, frankly, I don't think it would be tolerated in most kindergartens in this country, let alone, you know, in the U.S. Congress.
So, the name calling, the, you know, the horrible things that she has said about Ilhan Omar, I mean, she called her black-hearted and evil, and this demonization of the Muslims in Congress, the Jihad Squad. You know, what is it about Republicans, their obsession with these -- it's Ilhan Omar. And then, of course, Rashida Tlaib, you know, the two Muslim women.
There's only two Muslim women in Congress. And somehow, they're just completely obsessed with them, and obsessed with with, you know, with making Islamophobic comments, and I just don't see how you can ignore that. I don't see how you can say we have bigger things to worry about than that.
I heard Chris Christie earlier with Wolf saying that Boebert was making a joke. I mean, that's not a joke. The fact that people laughed doesn't make it a joke. It's mockery. And it's not -- it's really dangerous behaviour.
COOPER: Well, and Dana, I mean, she has turned it into, you know, I guess on whatever little lecture circuit she is on, where she's talking to people and trying to, you know, get money from them. This is one of her laugh lines that she uses and she has embellished this clearly over the weeks and months that she's been telling it. Does -- do you think that doing nothing, just shrugging it off is as just two lunatics, you know, where awful people being awful, you know?
I mean, it's like they're auditioning for the house -- the Real Housewives but they're like so low rent, they wouldn't even be able to make it on that show. There are far more talented people in that program. Does that normalize this sort of thing?
BASH: Your friend Andy Cohen, yes, no.
COOPER: He would not hire them, no.
BASH: Yes, your friend Andy Cohen would never hire them.
BASH: There are chance.
COOPER: They're not clever enough to come up with (INAUDIBLE).
BASH: Yes. It shouldn't normalize them. It's not normal. There's nothing normal about this. And the idea that Marjorie Taylor Greene has also said anti-Semitic things, ignorant things about the Holocaust, about Nazis. And then a friend of --
COOPER: Joris Besselaars (ph).
BASH: -- Kevin McCarthy -- well, there's that, exactly. But then the notion of people wearing masks and getting vaccines is like Nazi Germany and wearing a star. I mean --
BASH: -- that kind of thing. And then a friend of Kevin McCarthy got her into the Holocaust Museum to try to educate her. I mean, that is where -- she's a member of Congress. I mean, you know, it's important that they'd be educated, but that's kind of a basic bit of knowledge that somebody should have.
BASH: So, it shouldn't be normalized. It isn't normal. And anybody who suggests that is just -- it's completely inappropriate.
COOPER: Yes. Kirsten Powers, Dana Bash, thank you very much. Appreciate it.
Up next, breaking news --
POWERS: Thank you.
COOPER: -- there's a key figure in the former president's attempt to manipulate votes in Georgia, talks for hours to the January 6 Select Committee. Also some possible cooperation from another top figure in action expected tomorrow to hold a third in contempt for refusing to cooperate.
COOPER: There's some breaking news in the January 6 investigation. CNN has learned that Georgia Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger spoke at length today with the House Select Committee. He tells us the conversation lasts throughout four hours. He, of course, is of interest to committee for the conversation that he had with the former president who asked him you'll recall to find him enough votes to win the state. Raffensperger refused.
Also tonight, we're learning our first details about the extent of former White House Chief of Staff of Mark Meadows cooperation, which was announced earlier today. Committee Chairman Bennie Thompson telling CNN the panel has received, in his words, probably about 6,000 e-mails from Meadows via his attorney. He said he couldn't specify what those e-mails contained instead of deposition is scheduled for next week.
As for former Justice Department official Jeffrey Clark, who's not cooperating, the House was expected to cite him tomorrow for contempt. He's pegging his -- a resistance to the former president's appeals court case on executive privilege. Judges hearing oral arguments today showing scepticism for the former president side.
So there's certainly a lot to get to. Joining us CNN Contributor and former Nixon White House Counsel John Dean, also CNN Chief Legal Analyst and former Federal Prosecutor Jeffrey Toobin. So Mark Meadows possibly cooperating, I mean, 6,000 documents sounds like a lot, but --
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN CHIEF LEGAL ANALYST: It depends what they are.
COOPER: What's in it?
TOOBIN: Well, there's -- there could be like a real meeting of the minds here because Mark Meadows unlike Steve Bannon probably didn't want to be indicted. I mean, Bannon is like rejoicing in this experience.
COOPER: Right, of course.
TOOBIN: Meadows is like a more normal person and doesn't want to be indicted. At the same time, the committee is probably saying, look, you know, we could go to court with this guy, spend months and months and maybe get something. So here, they can agree on production that's probably not everything the committee wants, but better than nothing.
COOPER: But is -- I mean, it could also be that Meadows is trying to have it both ways. I mean, he's clearly -- I mean, the guy needs to make a living, I assume, I don't know how wealthy he is.
COOPER: But he wants to stay in Trump's favor. He wants to stay in Trump world because that, I guess, is where the lecture money is. And he wants to stay in the former president's good graces. So, I mean, how will we know what level of cooperation there really is?
TOOBIN: Well, no, because the committee will ask him questions next week. And we'll see how many he answers and on what subjects and the committee will examine all these e-mails and perhaps other documents he produce. And we'll see if they're grocery lists, or they are actually stuff that relates to January 6, so we'll know.
And the committee will not simply roll over on issues that they don't, you know, that he --
COOPER: That he doesn't want to talk about.
TOOBIN: Doesn't want to talk about, and we'll see if there's any given take there. But, you know, I think the committee recognizes that, you know, anytime they go to court, you're talking about months. And they don't have months.
COOPER: John, are there any circumstances under which you see Mark Meadows being a John Dean level bombshell witness for this committee?
JOHN DEAN, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: I think we need to telegraph that. I think we've had some sign and I don't think there's a break with Trump at all. I think he's very smart. He's trained as an attorney. He knows his way around Congress. I think he thinks he can get in that witness chair where there are no rules on how long he can answer or how he does answer. And he thinks he can probably filibuster a lot of it, and work his way through engaging with the committee, where he gives them vague answers, and they push but he doesn't have to give very much.
I think he'll claim privileges. So they'll have some battles on that. I don't think this is a sign he's going to cooperate and tell all.
COOPER: And Jeff, just the federal appeals court hearing arguments about the January 6 documents and executive privilege. They didn't issue a ruling today, do you have any doubts or any sense of where it's going?
TOOBIN: They certainly seem inclined to want to force the National Archives to turn over these documents. It's not a slam dunk case, however, and several of the judges pointed out that there --this is a novel situation --
COOPER: Two presidents?
TOOBIN: Two presidents both citing executive privilege, one saying it's OK, one saying it's not to turn over the material. The argument that we only have one President at a time in this country, he is the custodian of the presidency, the interests of the President, that seemed to be a winning argument. And it's also worth pointing out these were three democratic appointees on a highly polarize court with very conservative Dem -- Republicans, very liberal Democrats, these were three Liberal Democrats. I think that also is going to give you a hint of how this case is about (ph).
COOPER: But even if they ruled in December, wouldn't it -- the President then tried to take it to the Supreme Court?
TOOBIN: He would try, you know, that you don't automatically gets to go to the Supreme Court, the question of whether the court would give him a stay on this. That's become a huge issue --
TOOBIN: -- in many different cases on abortion, among other things about when the Supreme Court steps in and just stops everything that if he loses in the D.C. Circuit, you can be sure he will hope that the six conservatives on the Supreme Court will give him a stay.
COOPER: John, and as far as you could tell, did former President Trump's attorneys actually put forward any new arguments today?
DEAN: Not really, they sort of rehash what they had done at the lower court. And that's why they were getting some doubt. They were getting some very good questions from the judges, who pressed not only Trump's judge or Trump's attorneys, but the government as well. The House of Representatives lawyer got pushed pretty hard on how to resolve some of these issues when you have a former and incumbent president.
So it's, it to me, I think this is a case that since Trump and his MO is distal (ph), they'll try to get a full court in bonk hearing on this. That'll take a majority of the city circuit court, but that'll delay it longer.
COOPER: John, just lastly, you know, Georgia Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger testifying today said about four hours long. I mean, is there anything new he would have had to tell the committee? I mean, he's written a book about this. He's spoken repeatedly about this since it happened, what new information really would he have learned or said?
DEAN: I don't think he had a lot of new. I've read his book. He is -- has a very detailed annotation of his conversation with Trump. His reaction to it. So I don't think there's a lot of new information but rather a rehash.
COOPER: All right, John Dean --
TOOBIN: Just one more point. Tomorrow is the Supreme Court argument on the big Mississippi abortion case. Huge, huge issue.
COOPER: Yes. Jeff Toobin, John Dean, appreciate it.
Some news now about this network, it involves Chris Cuomo, the host of Cuomo Primetime. New documents released this week indicated that Chris was more intimately involved than previously known in helping his brother former New York Governor Andrew Cuomo, craft a defense amid a flurry of sexual misconduct allegations.
Here's a statement released tonight from a CNN spokesperson, "The New York Attorney General's Office released transcripts and exhibits Monday that shed new light on Chris Cuomo's involvement in his brother's defense. The documents, which we were not privy to before their public release, raise serious questions." The spokesperson continued, "When Chris admitted to us that he had offered advice to his brother's staff, he broke our rules and we acknowledge that publicly. But we also appreciated the unique position he was in and understood his need to put family first and job second. However, these documents point to a greater level of involvement in his brother's efforts than we previously knew."
The spokesperson added. "As a result, we have suspended Chris indefinitely pending further evaluation."
Second hour of 360 is right after the break.