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Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees

Trump Floats Pardons For January 6 Rioters If Re-Elected; British PM Faces More Calls To Resign After "Partygate" Report; Joe Rogan Responds To Backlash From Spotify Artists. Aired 9-10p ET

Aired January 31, 2022 - 21:00   ET




ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: Want to show you a live shot, of the Capitol, the scene, of course, of the January 6 attack.

Over the weekend, we heard from former President Donald Trump, saying the quiet part out loud, talking about Mike Pence, and his ability, who, in the President's words, overturn the election.

The President went on to say also that he would possibly, or he'd dangle pardons, for the attackers, the insurrectionists, on January 6, if he was reelected, as President.

We want to talk more about the ongoing threat to democracy, posed by the former President, who talked, as I said, about overturning the election. That's what he said in a statement, yesterday. Came, a day after, he said this, about members of the violent mob that attacked the Capitol.

He said, "If I run and if I win, we will treat those people, from January 6, fairly. We will treat them fairly. And if it requires pardons, we will give them, pardons, because they're being treated so unfairly."

Joining us now, someone, who nearly, or could have lost his life, defending the Capitol, against those people. Nearly did. Former Washington Metropolitan Police officer, and current CNN Law Enforcement Analyst, Michael Fanone.

Michael, thanks for being with us. What goes through your mind, when you hear the former President, saying that, about the people, who, in dangling pardons, in front of the people, who attacked you, and others that day?

MICHAEL FANONE, FORMER D.C. POLICE OFFICER, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Yes. I think my initial reaction was, which political prisoners, are you referring to, from January 6?


Are you talking about the guy that drove a Taser, into my neck, and electrocuted me, to the point, in which I suffered a heart attack? Are you talking about the guy that tried to take my gun, out of its holster, and kill me with it? Or, I don't know, the guy that, beat my buddy, Pat, over the head, with a aluminum baseball bat?

I don't know. It's just more outrageous rhetoric from America's ex- president.

COOPER: And its rhetoric backed up by current members of Congress, the Senate, who have said, there weren't weapons there, that day.

FANONE: Yes, I mean, that's just absolute crap. There were weapons of every kind, to include firearms, they were present that day. There were firearms recovered, at the rally, prior to the insurrection at the Capitol. There were firearms, recovered, on the grounds of the Capitol.

There were individuals, who were arrested, in the days, leading up to the January 6 insurrection, who, by their own admission, were there, to attend the rally, and brought firearms.

I don't know why that continues to circulate. But again, it's just a baloney.

COOPER: As a law enforcement professional, I'm wondering how you square anybody, saying that they back the Blue, and stand for law and order, while also saying they'll support someone, a President, who talks about pardons, for attackers, who attacked you and others?

FANONE: Yes, I mean, again, I certainly wouldn't - I wouldn't say that Republicans have a monopoly on hypocrisy. But they do, or at least there can be an argument made that they've got a monopoly on cowardice.

I mean, I see all, of these Republicans, who, over the past weekend, were tweeting out support, for law enforcement, especially in the wake of two police officers' murders, in New York City, one of which I attended, this past Friday.

But while they support law enforcement, in scenarios like that, and claim to be the party of law and order? They seem, unable to condemn the rhetoric, from their own party's leader, Donald Trump.

I'm curious as to what Kevin McCarthy, and Mike Pence, and Mitch McConnell, think, and all the other Republican lawmakers, who stay quiet, and don't vocalize their outrage. Or, if they do, they do it in a very tempered fashion.

And people should be outraged by this. It's absolutely unbelievable.

COOPER: Yes, I mean, we hear time and time again, from reporters, and others, who say that, when you talk to these folks, to the folks in Congress, privately, often they say they disagree what's happening.

They say it in private. But, in public, they don't come forward, and say what actually is in their hearts, or in their heads, or their concerns that they have, or the outrage that they allegedly have. FANONE: Yes, I mean, some of those lawmakers have said the same things to me.

COOPER: They've actually said that to your face?

FANONE: Yes. And I give them a lot of credit, for saying that to my face.

But I tell them, like, "I get it. The risks are high. You might lose your good government job. But, on January 6, the stakes were a hell of a whole lot higher, for me, and hundreds of other police officers that responded, to defend the Capitol, and their lives, that day. So, that just doesn't, pass muster with me. I couldn't care less about you getting reelected. I'm more concerned with the future of our democracy."

And, right now, it's in jeopardy. And Donald Trump is, he's the problem.

COOPER: The, you know, I don't - this weekend, we heard the former President, encouraging, saying that in cities, where he is being investigated, he hopes there are, you know, people go to have massive turnouts, of protests, and to object to the fact that law enforcement personnel are investigating him, in Atlanta or New York.


Does it worry you that this person, who encouraged people, to come to the Capitol, on January 6, who then encouraged people, and claimed he was going to march to the Capitol, with people, on January 6, is still encouraging mobs, rallies, protests, against law enforcement personnel?

FANONE: Absolutely. I mean, he still has a great deal of support, in this country. And many of those supporters, have already proven, like they did, on January 6, that they're willing to commit violence, on his behalf.

And I mean, there is just no bottom to what it is that he's willing to say. He's like, America's Crazy Ex. And he's just decided that if he can't have us, no one can. And he's going to tear apart our democracy, and our country, if he can't, get reelected.

COOPER: You talked about the two officers, in New York, who were shot to death, responding to what initially sounded like a routine disturbance, in somebody's house, a mother complaining about altercation, with her son.

What was that like, to be there, last week? I mean, those images of, just rows and rows of police officers, to stand amongst that, what was that like?

FANONE: I mean, there were something - first of all, it's difficult. It's difficult to see any police officer lose their life. I think, for us that, is the police community, like I internalize it. And I take it, very personally. But then also, there's something awe-inspiring about those types of turnouts, for police officers' funerals. I remember vividly, Wenjian Liu and Rafael Ramos' funerals, and when I attended those.

And it's incredibly comforting, to see that police officers, from all over the country and, in many instances, all over the world, would come out, to support, a fellow officer and their family.

COOPER: Michael Fanone, I really appreciate, your time tonight. Thank you.

FANONE: Yes, sir. Thank you.

COOPER: More evidence now, on the former administration's attitude, toward the public that they were supposed to be serving, also to future historians, not to mention posterity. The attitude seems to have been, at best, one of disregard, worst, outright contempt.

The issue is the habit, including the former President's, of tearing up presidential records, records the January 6 committee now has.

CNN's Ryan Nobles, joins us with more.

So Ryan, the National Archives put out a statement, about the White House documents, handed over to the January 6 committee. What did you learn, from that?

RYAN NOBLES, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Anderson. This was in response to our reporting.

We had learned that the January 6 committee was in possession of documents that had been torn up, and basically taped back together, after they received them, from the National Archives.

And so, we asked the Archives about it. And they confirmed that these documents that they'd received, from the Trump White House, at the end of his administration, had come to them, torn up, and that they had to repair them.

This is part of the statement that they issued to us, earlier today.

It said, quote, "These were turned over to the National Archives at the end of the Trump Administration, along with a number of torn-up records that had not been reconstructed by the White House. The Presidential Records Act requires that all records created by presidents be turned over to the National Archives at the end of their administrations."

Now, we know that this was a habit that the former President had, dating back to, as late as 2018, where he would just tear up documents. And there was even a period of time, where there were White House staffers that would come in, behind him, and tape them back up, so that they'd be available for the National Archives.

The fact that it was still going on, right up until the end of his administration, and now some of those documents, are of interest, to the January 6 Select Committee, is very significant, Anderson.

COOPER: We've also learned that former Vice President Pence's former Chief of Staff, Marc Short, testified, Jamie Gangel was talking about that, in the last hour, before the panel.

Do we know much about what was said, or anything about what was said? Or what's the significance of that?

NOBLES: Yes, we don't know, too many specifics, about the interview itself, other than that, it was lengthy, and it took place in-person.

Now, many of these interviews have been taking place virtually, because of the Omicron surge. And this is one of the first that we've learned that took place in-person.

But we know that there is a very special interest in Marc Short, and the role that he played, in the days, leading up to, and on January 6.

He was one of, if not, the former Vice President Mike Pence's closest advisers. He was in a key meeting, on January 4, where some of the former President Donald Trump's key advisers were putting that pressure campaign on him, to overturn the election.

And, of course, the former President put out that statement, Anderson, yesterday, where he suggested that Mike Pence should have overturned the election. That came, after the conversation with Marc Short.


But this is something that the January 6 committee has long suspected, as being one of the big problems, and issues that lead to the violence, and chaos, here, on that day. So, you can bet that that was a big part of their conversation, with Marc Short, Anderson.

COOPER: Ryan Nobles, appreciate it. Thank you.

Coming up next, why not even the former President's remarks, of the weekend, and the ongoing threat to democracy, they may signal, is enough for skeptical Republicans, to disavow him. We'll take it up with two veteran political observers.

Later, perhaps the pluckiest resistance, imaginable, to Russia's war machine, with a large and dangerous portion, of the Russian army, now amassing the border, with Ukraine.

We've got an exclusive look at how a fleet of Irish fishing boats, is confronting the Russian Navy.



COOPER: So, it's been quite a weekend. In the space, of just a weekend, the former President has lamented that his Vice President did not help him stage a coup. He's promised to pardon the foot soldiers, of that attempted coup, and threatened to unleash mobs of people, on anyone, who's investigating, his part, in it, in various cities.

It's quite the trifecta! Three items we would never have associated any former President with. Yet, this former President is also a potential future president. Hence, the concern and the conversation.

Joining us, CNN's Senior Political Analyst, Kirsten Powers, Author of "Saving Grace: Speak Your Truth, Stay Centered, and Learn to Coexist with People Who Drive You Nuts," a book we all need, and I have read, and greatly enjoyed.

Also, Stuart Stevens, political consultant, former Romney 2012 presidential campaign adviser, and author of many books, including "It Was All a Lie: How the Republican Party Became Donald Trump," and "Malaria Dreams," a book I read, as a teenager, and loved.

Kirsten, when the former President suggests, he will pardon insurrectionists, if he's elected, to the White House again? When he urges unrest, if he faces any criminal charges? What does it mean for the current version of the Republican Party, and the rule of law?


I think that sometimes people can think "Well, people are always talking about how Donald Trump is a problem." But you had Laurence Tribe, on earlier, who is a legendary legal mind, literally wrote a textbook, on the constitutional law, saying that Donald Trump could be indicted, for the things that he said.

And a lot of times, people say, look at other countries, and say, "How did that authoritarian get into power?" And this is the way they get into power. They do it right in front of your eyes, and they talk about it.

And that's what Donald Trump is doing. He is just out loud, saying exactly what he thinks should have happened, and what he would like to happen, in the future.

And he's made it pretty clear. If he's talking about pardons, he's thinking about being President again. And he is somebody, who literally said that the Vice President should have overturned the election.

COOPER: Stuart? "The Vice President should have overturned the election."

This is the guy, who encouraged people, to come to Washington D.C., for a wild event, on January 6, and then, had speakers, tell them, talk to them, about trial by combat, and, get tough, and then said that he was going to march, with them, to the Capitol.

And here he is, encouraging crowds, to descend on cities, where law enforcement personnel, are investigating him.


COOPER: It's extraordinary.

STEVENS: Yes, it is extraordinary.

When Donald Trump, runs for president again, which he's going to do, and I think he will be the nominee, the vetting process, for the Vice President that he picks, is going to revolve around one issue. Will you vote to overturn the election, if we don't win?

This is something that's never happened before. And if we don't react to it, it's just going to be part of a process that always happens, when autocracy take over, of a normalization, of the illegal.

I mean, what you were talking about earlier, the ripping up of these documents? This was just a pattern, inside the White House. They held the RNC Convention, at the White House. How many times did Kellyanne Conway violate The Hatch Act?

And it's just going to continue, until somehow, the Republican Party, is going to, I think, have to be defeated, because I don't think that anyone, inside the Republican Party, with any support, is going to be able to be an alternative, to Trump.

COOPER: Essentially, Kirsten, I've been following a coup, which has taken place, in Burkina Faso, over the last couple of days. And there have been a number of coups, in a number of countries, in Western Africa, Chad, and Central Africa, than Chad's case, but in a number of countries.

And when you read about it, you think, "Well, who are the people, who did participate in this? And how would they go along with it?"

And it would never have occurred to me in prior years that we would have people, in this country, even in leadership positions, or in the orbit of leadership positions, who would go along with something like this?

And then, you hear about Mike Flynn, and this other former general, and writing up insane executive orders, for the President, potentially, to sign, about the Military, seizing voting machines, and Field Marshal Flynn, you know? It sounds insane.

But the insane, it doesn't sound so insane now, because the President's continuing - the former President's continuing to repeat this, and may run again, on this.

POWERS: It's terrifying. I really find it terrifying. And I agree with you that in the past, it was unthinkable.


Pre-Trump, it was unthinkable that these kinds of things could happen. Honestly, even when Donald Trump was president, it wasn't completely unthinkable that January 6 would have happened. But it was mostly unthinkable. I think we were all shocked by it. So, what else is going to happen that we haven't thought of, and that we haven't expected? And I think that people do tend to make excuses, say things that people aren't serious about the things that they're saying that the institutions will stand, that the institutions will be strong enough, until they aren't. And so, we have to take this seriously.

This is a person, who does not care about America. This is a person, who only cares about himself. He doesn't care about the people, the January 6 people, the way, he's saying he's going to pardon them. He doesn't care about them. He doesn't care about his supporters.

He cares about himself. He cares about getting back in power. And if he gets back in power, if he has - if it's in - if he can pull it off, it will be the last election that this country sees, at least for a very, very long time.

COOPER: Yes. I'm going to have to leave you there. We're having some technical issues.

Kirsten Powers, I appreciate it. Stuart Stevens, I really appreciate it. Thank you.

POWERS: Thank you.

STEVENS: Thank you.

COOPER: Up next, two stories about confronting Russia. Breaking news on the latest U.S. attempt, to thwart a possible Russian invasion, of Ukraine.

I'll also talk to U.S. Congressman, who's recently returned, from the fact-finding mission, from Ukraine.

Also, Donie O'Sullivan, reports on an Irish fishing community, taking on the Russian military. We'll explain that ahead.


COOPER: Now, a CNN exclusive report, on the January 6 committee's investigation. Sources tell CNN that the former Vice President's Chief of Staff, Marc Short, has testified, before the committee. This occurred, just last Wednesday.

And it's the most significant sign to date that former Vice President Mike Pence's team, is cooperating with probe. Short was with the Vice President, as you probably know, at the Capitol, on the day of the attack.

There's also breaking news tonight, as well, in Russia, as Russia has responded, in writing, to the United States' latest attempt, to de- escalate the crisis, in Ukraine.

I spoke earlier, about the threat, with Democratic congressman, David Cicilline, who cite - who sits, I should say, on the Foreign Affairs Committee, and recently returned, from a fact-finding trip, to Ukraine.


COOPER: Congressman, what did you see and hear, in Ukraine? Did it feel like the country, on the brink, of being invaded?

REP. DAVID CICILLINE (D-RI): Well, I think, the Ukrainians have been dealing with Russian aggression, for a number of years.


So, we met with the Foreign Minister, the Defense Minister, President Zelensky. And really, I left with the impression that the Ukrainians understand the seriousness of the threat, but they're also going on with their daily lives.

I think the President was very clear that he doesn't want his country to panic, and face devastating economic consequences. But it's very clear that they're working closely with United States, and their allies, to prepare for the worst.

And they're really addressing, in a very fundamental way, the Russian misinformation campaign that is claiming that, Ukraine is the aggressor.

There's no question about it, Vladimir Putin and the Russian Federation are the aggressors here. Ukraine is a democracy. And the Ukrainians are prepared to fight, to preserve their democracy.

COOPER: So, I mean, is it clear to you, having been there, why the White House, is saying a Russian invasion is imminent, while President Zelensky has been - kind of downplayed that?

CICILLINE: Yes. I mean, look, I think it's very clear that the Russians have in excess of 100,000 troops, on the border. They have been engaged in a serious mis-propaganda campaign, and misinformation campaign, to try to destabilize Ukraine. They invaded, and took part of Ukraine, when they took Crimea.

So, the Ukrainians have been dealing with this aggression. This is a significant military buildup, on their border. I don't think anyone knows, for sure, what Vladimir Putin is doing, or intends to do. But those indications make this a serious threat.

I think what President Zelensky is saying is he understands that. But he also understands that it's important that he protect the economy of Ukraine, the investment environment, the daily lives of Ukrainians. So, I think he's doing what most leaders want to do. Not panic the people, but do the preparations that are necessary, to defend his country.

And I will tell you, Vladimir Putin, is threatened by Ukraine, because it's a democracy, right on his border. And the Russian people can see life with freedom, right across the border. And so, he's really threatened, by a democratic and prosperous Ukraine. But the reality is, we cannot allow Vladimir Putin, or any other dictator, to change the boundaries of a country, by force, and to take on a sovereign country, a democratically-elected government, in an effort to, rebuild the Soviet Union.

COOPER: What do you think is going to happen? I mean, President Biden, said, this afternoon, diplomacy is the best way forward. You saw the U.S. and Russian ambassadors, to the U.N., clash there today.

How long is the window for diplomacy open?

CICILLINE: Well, I think everyone hopes that there will be a diplomatic off-ramp that somehow Vladimir Putin will realize that the international community is prepared to come together, and impose crushing sanctions, that will cripple the Russian economy, that will impose real penalties, on the oligarchs, who support him.

And so, the fact that we are unified that he heard the message, from NATO, and the European allies, the United States, that we are all on the same page, that if he takes a step, to invade Ukraine, he will suffer serious consequences, really crippling sanctions. And I think the point is to make it clear to him that it's not worth this exploration.

COOPER: What do you think the Ukrainians' expectations are, in terms of U.S. military involvement, if there's an invasion?

CICILLINE: Well, I mean, the Ukrainians are seeking help, not only for the United States, but from many of their European allies, both in terms of weapons systems, and ammunition, and all the things you need to fight.

But what really struck me, is Ukrainian people are incredibly proud, and they are prepared to fight, for their own country. And they made it very clear. From everyone we met said, "We are going to fight for our country. This is - we're Ukrainian. We have a right to live with freedom. And we're not going to allow Vladimir Putin, to take over our country."

So, this is - they're very proud people. They're ready to fight. But they're going to need support. They've done a lot, to develop their military capabilities, over the last several years, particularly since 2014.

But obviously, the Russian army is much more powerful. So, they're going to need additional lethal support. They're going to need help, from their allies, in the region. But these are people, who are ready to fight, to defend their democracy, and their country.

COOPER: Congressman, I appreciate your time tonight. Thank you so much.

CICILLINE: My pleasure.


COOPER: So clear, on the other side of Europe, there's a fishing community, in Ireland, that's also staring down the Russian military.

Son of Ireland, Donie O'Sullivan, has that story.


PATRICK MURPHY, CEO, IRISH SOUTH AND WEST FISH PRODUCER'S ORGANIZATION: You can imagine now, if the two of us are here, and next thing, a rocket goes, flying over your head? And you're going, "Jesus what was that?"

DONIE O'SULLIVAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Irish fishermen worried about rockets that would be fired, as part of a Russian military exercise, off the Irish coast, this week.

ALAN CARLETON, FISHERMAN: We don't want anyone doing live-fire in our waters. It's our backyard. It's where we make our living, and our livelihood.

O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): Concern here, in Castletownbere, a fishing village, on Ireland's south coast, that Russian naval drills could pose a threat, not only to the safety of fishermen, but potentially to the environment, and fish stocks.

CARLETON: We're worried about what damage this live-fire might do, to the fish stocks, and the marine life. And there's whales and dolphins, out there as well, they can - it's prompted to fear them, as well, and frighten them like, it'd frighten me, if a bomb went off, like saying (ph) bound to frighten them.


O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): Fishermen, like Alan Carleton, had planned, this week, to go fishing, off the Irish coast, like he always does, despite warnings from the Russian embassy, in Dublin that doing so could be dangerous.

CARLETON: Just to, to keep the lookout, for other ships, and things like that.

O'SULLIVAN (on camera): Keep a lookout for the Russian Navy?

CARLETON: Well hopefully, we don't see them!

O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): At O'Donoghue's pub, on the Castletownbere Harbor, locals worried, about the Russian military.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Fishermen, in general are very anxious about the whole thing.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: People are worried, yes, that it's, it's affecting our fishing. It's affecting our safety of people.

O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): Fishermen-turned diplomats, fishing representatives, met with the Russian Ambassador, to Ireland, last week, to express their concerns, about Russia firing rockets, where they normally fish. O'SULLIVAN (on camera): When you went in, to speak to the Russian Ambassador, what did you say to him?

MURPHY: Well, first of all, we gave him some prawns.

O'SULLIVAN (on camera): If you had a message for Vladimir Putin, what would it be?

CARLETON: Maybe this could go all to deeper water, where they wouldn't affect the fish stocks, as much.

O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): And Saturday night, that's just what happened. The Russians saying, after appeals, from the Irish government, and the fishermen, themselves, Russia would move its ships, further out to sea, away from the Irish fishing boats.

The news reaching this community, by tweet.


O'SULLIVAN (on camera): How do you feel?

MURPHY: Shocked really, like, I didn't think that little old house in the south and west would have an impact on international diplomacy.



O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): The news, a relief, for the whole community here.

O'SULLIVAN (on camera): You must have felt a great sense of relief, happiness?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, everybody did. Everybody did. We're thinking of our stocks, our livelihoods.

O'SULLIVAN (on camera): Are you hoping to have a good catch, this week?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, hopefully, you know? Everyone's good catching the goals (ph).

O'SULLIVAN (on camera): And not catching any Russian ships?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, definitely not. No. Or any ships.


COOPER: Donie O'Sullivan joins us now.

Donie, I love that you were able to work in a shot of Guinness being poured in a pub, into your piece, on global conflict.

O'SULLIVAN: Only in Ireland, Anderson! Look, and the Irish government had a role to play, in some of this. But even the Irish governments, who had been in contact, with the Russian Ministry of Defense, they thanked, the fishermen here. A real win for fish boat diplomacy over gunboat diplomacy.

And look, it was the fishermen that brought global attention, to this story. And now, they have grand ambitions, for their next diplomatic act. So, watch this space.

COOPER: How long are you staying in Ireland, for?

O'SULLIVAN: Home, to visit the family, now, after this, for a few days.

COOPER: That's?

O'SULLIVAN: So, it's happy endings, on all sides, here, Anderson.

COOPER: Well, enjoy. Enjoy.

Donie O'Sullivan, thank you very much, in Ireland. What a great place!

Coming up, the partying that's giving Boris Johnson, a political hangover. Tonight, fellow conservatives, are turning on the British Prime Minister. And the polls are doing him no favors.

His answer, to a bruising new report, next.



COOPER: Embattled British Prime Minister, Boris Johnson, is set to head to Ukraine, tomorrow, amid fears of a Russian invasion.

But tonight, his own political future, back home, is in serious question, after a scathing new report, on repeated parties, some of which included Johnson, all while the rest of England suffered through mandatory COVID lockdowns.

The report is intentionally vague, with some details kept private, while police conduct their own probe. But it finds a, quote, "Failure of leadership," along with a "Culture of excessive drinking."

Johnson went into damage-control mode, today, appearing before Parliament.




JOHNSON: And I want to say--


JOHNSON: And I want to say, to the people of this country, I know what the issue is.


JOHNSON: Yes, Mr. Speaker, yes. Yes. It's whether this government can be trusted to deliver. And I say, Mr. Speaker, yes, we can be trusted.


JOHNSON: Yes, we can be trusted, to deliver.


COOPER: CNN's Richard Quest, joins me now, along with our Senior Data Reporter, Harry Enten.

Sir Richard, what's notable, is that this report is far more damning than anyone thought it would be. And this is kind of the pared-back version, right?


For many, many weeks, if at all, until the police - look, there are 16 events, over 12 dates that we're talking about. I've got the report here. For example, on the 17th of December, in 2020, there was a Christmas Quiz, gathering for the departure of a senior official, and another one, at Number 10.

Time and again, these officials, were getting together, after a long day's work, which the report says is irrelevant. And they were having drinks, or going out, and buying booze, excessive drinking, a failure of leadership.

No wonder today, Boris Johnson's predecessor, Theresa May, absolutely laid into him, with a firm, a question of "What were you up to?" Take a listen.


THERESA MAY, FORMER BRITISH MINISTER: So either my right honorable friend had not read the rules, or didn't understand what they meant, and others around him, or they didn't think the rules applied to Number 10. Which was it?


QUEST: It's just brutal, what's happening.

And Boris Johnson, in that earlier, in the statement, he starts off by apologizing. And within seconds, he's already blaming everybody else. And he's not - the contrition that he starts off by saying, "I'm sorry," disappears.

And tonight, I think he's well and truly on the ropes. But whether he goes? Well, that's we'll have to wait for some time to tell.

COOPER: Yes. What do you - what determines, whether or not he stays in power?

QUEST: Trust. What happens with the Metropolitan Police report, what the final report says?

And, from Johnson's point of view, which is what many people, Partygate, the longer Partygate goes on, the more people sort of become relaxed about it.

But this is the picture. Look at the picture, of the Queen. Her Majesty The Queen, at the funeral, of her husband, Prince Philip, at Windsor Castle. She is sitting there, following the rules, after 70 odd years of marriage, in widowhood.


QUEST: And meanwhile, he's having parties, the night before, at Number 10.


Harry, you've got new insight, into Boris Johnson's poll numbers?

HARRY ENTEN, CNN SENIOR DATA REPORTER: They're awful. I mean, the way you can compare it, is just look at Joe Biden, who's not a popular guy. And the fact is Boris Johnson's numbers make Joe Biden's numbers look like Mother Teresa's numbers.

Boris Johnson's approval rating's just 24 percent.


ENTEN: Joe Biden's, in the United States, is 41 percent. And again, to put it into an American context, a 24 percent approval rating? If you look back, Richard Nixon had the same approval rating, when he resigned the U.S. presidency, in 1974.



ENTEN: Right? It's amazing. And only Harry Truman, in 1952--


ENTEN: --had a lower approval rating, than Johnson's currently is. It's just a terrible rating. He has lost the trust of the folks.

And if you look at this? Every U.S. president that had his lower rating, as Johnson, either resigned, or lost the next general election. His numbers are atrocious.

COOPER: So, what does history suggest about his future? [21:45:00]

ENTEN: I mean, the future is that, at this particular point, if you look at the numbers, you say, "OK, historically speaking, he's probably going to either lose, or have to resign."

And if you look right now, when you look at the next general election, between the Conservatives, and Labor, you see that the Conservatives now are down significantly. And if you look, his numbers are worse than 93 percent, of all the Prime Minister ratings, since 1977.

And it's the lowest, the lowest, for any Prime Minister, since 2008. And I can tell you, I was in college in 2008. And I'm a fairly old guy now.

QUEST: Right.

ENTEN: So, those are some pretty old numbers.

COOPER: Richard, what do you make of it?

QUEST: OK. Firstly, the next election isn't for several years. So, Boris Johnson's banking, because there's a fixed term.

And secondly, there's nobody else. The reason The Tories haven't defenestrated him, out the window, is because there's nobody else. The Chancellor is really not there to take over it. The Foreign Secretary, probably they would say, not ready. So, they are terrified.

The big test will be at the local elections, in May. How many local councils do they lose? Because, as you know, like in this country, midterms are used to wreak revenge, if you will, or angst, on the sitting government.

Johnson hasn't gone yet, or he hasn't been thrown out, because there's no one to replace him, on the Tory benches. That's why his MPs are sticking with him.

COOPER: Richard, I'm sure, you were watching football, this weekend.

Harry, I just want to follow up, on our football talk, last week. I was on a flight, a JetBlue flight, yesterday, flying back to New York.


COOPER: And the person next to me was watching the game. And so, I turned on the game. And I watched the last few minutes, of the San Francisco 49ers, with the bangle - or no, the Rams, or the - the goats on the heads.


COOPER: The Rams!

ENTEN: Yes! Yes! COOPER: It was fantastic - it was fun to watch, I got to say. The shots were very exciting. There was a lot of swooping camera angles. Costumes were great. And there was a lot of interceptions and a lot of excitement.

ENTEN: The costumes were fantastic!


ENTEN: Look, this was the most exciting championship weekend, pretty much, ever since 1970. The two scores combined, the average margin was just three points. That's tied for the lowest ever.

And the thing I have to ask you, Anderson, is will you watch the Super Bowl with me? Because then I can really teach you.

COOPER: I don't--

ENTEN: Come on!

COOPER: I've tuned in occasionally, depending on who the halftime performance was.

ENTEN: It's going to be a great halftime show! It's a whole production. The costumes, and halftime, and the rest of the game, are going to be fantastic. You can't beat them.

COOPER: I know.

ENTEN: Not even on Broadway!

COOPER: Richard Quest, if you were there, maybe I would watch, with Harry.

QUEST: Well, I'll invite you to a game of cricket!


QUEST: How about that?

COOPER: Oh, yes!

ENTEN: I love it.

COOPER: All of the bats and the wickets. A sticky wicket!

QUEST: Right, yes, yes.

COOPER: And it would be a sticky wicket, wouldn't it?

QUEST: Easy! Easy!


Richard Quest, Harry Enten, appreciate it. Thank you very much.

ENTEN: Thanks, buddy.

COOPER: Spotify making some new changes, to its platform, after both the streaming service, and Joe Rogan's podcast came under fire, for COVID-19 misinformation.

We'll have details on that, ahead.



COOPER: Joe Rogan, is speaking out, after facing backlash, over COVID- 19 misinformation, spread on his podcast. In a nearly 10-minute Instagram video, Rogan apologized, and said he's interested in bringing on different viewpoints.


JOE ROGAN, THE JOE ROGAN EXPERIENCE, HOST: I want to thank Spotify, for being so supportive, during this time. And I'm very sorry that this is happening to them, and that they're taking so much heat from it.

Do I get things wrong? Absolutely, I get things wrong. But I try to correct them. Whenever I get something wrong, I try to correct it, because I'm interested in telling the truth. I'm interested in finding out what the truth is. And I'm interested in having interesting conversations, with people that have differing opinions.


COOPER: Spotify is also changing its policies. For the first time, Spotify publicly posted, their long-standing platform rules, after facing pressure, from artists, including Neil Young, and Joni Mitchell, who asked that their music be removed, from the platform.

Spotify also said they would add a content advisory, to any podcast episode, about COVID-19.

Joining us now, Kara Swisher, host of the "Sway" podcast, for The New York Times. She's also the co-host of "Pivot" podcast.

So, Kara, Spotify, is obviously the latest, in a string of high- profile Big Tech companies, to find themselves, in this position. How did they do, with their response, in your opinion?

KARA SWISHER, HOST, "SWAY" PODCAST, CO-HOST, "PIVOT" PODCAST: I thought their response wasn't great.

I thought Joe Rogan's was pretty good, I have to say. He did the right thing. He was contrite. He talked about making mistakes. He talked about issues, around his podcast, getting so big, et cetera.

I thought Spotify was kind of in the middle, trying to pretend they're a tech company, when they're actually a media company. They used a word, censor - they don't want to be a content censor. Well, they're a publisher. And therefore, that's called editing. I mean, I don't know what it's called, in the TV business. But producing, right?

And so, they are responsible for Joe Rogan. And so, they shouldn't act, as if they're just a benign platform that he just happens to be on, that they happen to pay him $100 million for, so.

COOPER: I also I didn't - I haven't looked - I haven't had time to look at the full 10 minutes yet. I read certain lines that he had said in his apology.

And I was impressed, of the fact, and I think it's always good, in public life, when somebody is willing to look at what they've done, and say, "You know what? I can get better at this. And I want to get better at this."


COOPER: "And I want to have different points of view."

And we live in an age, where I think it's important to walk in other people's shoes, and have different points of view. So, I mean, I think Joe Rogan has said an untruth thing about me, and hurricane coverage, years ago.

But I appreciate the fact that he's willing to reflect, and do more research. I think he also talked about, being better-informed, which I think is important.

SWISHER: Right. Right. Well, some of the things, he was talking about, it's different opinions, and stuff like that. Some of this stuff is facts. And it, requires, I don't know, just a fact-checker? They could hire that, and say, "This isn't right. We need to correct this."

COOPER: Right.

SWISHER: He's also pretty neutral, when people say things that are factually inaccurate.

And then, sometimes, very tough on people. He was pretty tough on Sanjay Gupta. So what? That's OK. He should do that, as an interviewer. It's just he doesn't do it quite the same, with those, who are saying some things that are not true.

And so, it's great to have different opinions. It's not great to put out incorrect facts. And there is a difference. There still is, no matter how you slice it.

COOPER: What did you think of Neil Young, and others, who said that Spotify should ban Joe Rogan?

SWISHER: I thought that was fine. They didn't like what they saw. And they just moved off the platform. I think it's - they're well within their rights. They expressed an opinion. They didn't like it.

And just what I'm saying, they didn't like this bad information. And so, they were acting, in their ability. And they gave up quite a bit. Neil Young did, Joni Mitchell, and several others. And so, I think that's within their rights.

It's very common that this happens, also at media companies. You saw it happening over at Fox News, when Jonah Goldberg, protested Tucker Carlson. It happens in media, all the time.

And we have to keep in mind, this is a media company. It shouldn't be protected, as a tech - a benign tech platform. It shouldn't be protected, by Section 230, absolutely, if they're making content, just like CNN is, or New York Times is.

COOPER: Yes. Can you just explain that to people, who don't follow this stuff, as closely--


COOPER: --as we probably do? I mean, you've said, on Twitter, you said, Spotify can't pretend it's a platform when it's a media company. What is the difference?


SWISHER: Well, it's both, actually. But it is a media company, in this case, because they did a deal. They make podcasts. They've gotten very deep, in the podcast business, because it's critical for their survival.

But Section 230, it gives tech platforms, broad immunity. But it doesn't give media companies, broad immunity. We don't - that would be great to have broad immunity. Everyone would like that. But actually, you wouldn't, because you want to get things right.

And so, a lot of tech companies, have protected themselves, by being able to not be responsible, for what's on their platforms. But, in this case, Spotify bought and paid for this content, and therefore is responsible for it. I think so, and I think a lot of people do.

COOPER: Kara Swisher, I love having you on. Thank you.

SWISHER: Thanks a lot.

COOPER: Appreciate it.

SWISHER: Thanks.

COOPER: Coming up next, some words, about a friend.


COOPER: I want to talk, for a moment, about someone that you've never met, but that someone, you should have. You would have liked him, in no small part, because he would have made it absolutely clear that he liked you.

Camera Operator Ed Langan was like that. He knew how to put people at ease. He knew how to let people, in on the joke, to share a moment. And there was always something to talk about with Ed. In the words of a colleague, he knew a little about just about everything. He could talk to anyone. He loved the Grateful Dead. He loved good food. He was a huge Anthony Bourdain fan.

More than that, though, Ed loved to listen. When he asked, even the simplest things, like, "How are you doing?" or "How's the family?" he really cared about the answer. It wasn't just a nicety.

He really listened, for more than 20 years, until his sudden, and untimely passing, which is frankly incomprehensible, to all of us, who worked with Ed, and cared about Ed, dying over the weekend. We were his family. And we always will be.

And, right now, we, as a family, here, we miss him, terribly. He was a great, lovely, sweet, kind, smart and funny man. And he will be forever missed.