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Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees
Police: At Least Three People Killed In Tulsa Hospital Campus Shooting; Texas School Police Chief Dodges CNN's Questions On Shooting; Legal Victory For Johnny Depp After He And Amber Heard Found Liable For Defamation; Fmr. January 6 Committee Senior Adviser Gives First Inside Account Of What They've Uncovered; Police: At Least 4 People Killed In Tulsa Hospital Campus Shooting; Ukraine National Soccer Team Tops Scotland, One Win Away From Qualifying For World Cup. Aired 8-9p ET
Aired June 01, 2022 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: All right, well, we'll see what happens from here, but somebody had to watch that.
Jean Casarez, thank you so very much.
And thanks so much to all of you. AC 360 begins now.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: Good evening.
With funerals underway for the victims of last week's school shooting in Uvalde. Texas, we have another mass shooting to report tonight. This time Tulsa, Oklahoma.
Police say at least three people are dead, plus the shooter at a medical office building near the city's St. Francis Hospital. CNN's Joe Johns is working this story. He joins us now.
What do we know so far, Joe?
JOE JOHNS, CNN SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Anderson, what we do know, at least according to the authority so far is that three people have been reported dead as a result of the shooting, a fourth, if you include the shooter himself. And we're also told by authorities that one person was taken from the hospital in critical condition.
This initially went out according to authorities, as a report of a man with a rifle and escalated into an active shooter situation at the St. Francis Hospital campus in what is referred to as the Natalie Building, apparently a very large building. Authorities having to go door to door there in that building and remove people in what they are referring to as a slow evacuation. So not a lot of additional details in this.
At first, authorities called this a "catastrophic scene." We still don't know any more details about why they would be referring to it in that way. What we do know at this time is three dead, four, including the shooter, and one person reported in critical condition -- Anderson.
COOPER: Do we know anything about the medical complex where the shooting took place? It might give us information about how the person was able to get inside.
JOHNS: Not a lot of information from the authorities about that, other than it is certainly part of the community and you have the hospital. And you also have the building apparently where all of this occurred.
There was one report that authority shared indicating that this individual may have gone to this location specifically looking for a doctor. We don't know who that doctor is, or the doctor's whereabouts at this time -- Anderson.
COOPER: The police spokesman said that the building is being checked and evacuated floor by floor. Do we know how long that may take? How many rooms we're talking about?
JOHNS: The authorities didn't give us a time specifically, but they did ask everyone to be patient because they said, it's a very large building, and that they did have to go door to door in this slow evacuation, so that suggests, it could take a while.
COOPER: Yes, we should point out also these are early reports, which as we know, can often be wrong.
Joe, is there anything that's known about the condition of the wounded person?
JOHNS: No other than critical condition, and certainly your warning there about this being early information is something I have to pass along also because we don't know whether, for example, that person who was listed in critical condition is now included as part of the fatalities or not.
But what authorities have told us is three dead, four including the shooter, one person critical taken from the hospital.
COOPER: And is it clear that anything about the people who were killed, whether they were targets, intended targets related to this doctor, if this person was searching for a particular medical -- certain medical personnel?
JOHNS: No. And that is interesting also. It is not clear at all.
What we know though, at least from a member of the City Council in Tulsa, who appeared on our air in the previous program, there is some indication that this individual after he completed the shooting, went ahead and shot and killed himself.
COOPER: We're going to talk to that member of the City Council just now. Joe Johns, appreciate it. Thank you.
We're expecting to hear from local authorities at 8:15.
With us by phone right now Tulsa City Councilor, Jayme Fowler.
Councilor, appreciate you being with us. I'm sorry, it's under these circumstances. What have you learned about this incident?
JAYME FOWLER, TULSA CITY COUNCILOR (via phone): Well, you're breaking up. Can you hear me?
COOPER: Yes, Councilor Fowler. It's Anderson Cooper, you're on the air. Just wondering an update on what you have learned about this incident?
FOWLER: Well, here's what we know so far is that an active shooter was in the Natalie Ward Building adjacent to St. Francis Hospital. It's a physician specialty building, and from what we're getting from sources is that there was an active shooter and they were looking for a physician and they were not able to find that physician and three innocent people in that building have been shot.
And we're picking up information also that there may have been another person wounded. And, you know, obviously our thoughts and prayers go out to the victims of that shooter, and the shooter did take his own life, and we do know that.
Tulsa Police Department, the Riverside, I believe the Riverside division, they actually prepared -- they did training yesterday for just such a situation and they've been trained to prepare for just this. So it could have been possibly worse.
Nonetheless, this has just been very tragic.
COOPER: Yes. Can you tell me a little about what you know about the facility where this occurred? You're saying it is outpatient. So it's not an inside area of a hospital. It's relatively accessible.
FOWLER: It's not inside a hospital. It's a building just adjacent -- adjacent to St. Francis Hospital. There is a walkway from the hospital to the building. It's the building is approximately nine -- I'm going to say maybe nine to 11 storeys, 12 storeys high. It is where specialty practices are located. Physicians that serve that hospital, you know, it's there on the campus.
COOPER: Yes. Well, Councilor Fowler, I appreciate you taking the time to fill us in a little bit more. We're expecting to hear from local authorities at 8:15. I appreciate it, Councilor. We will give you more information as we learn more.
Turning now to the mass shooting eight days ago in Uvalde, Texas and CNN's continued attempts to try and get answers about what actually happened after more than a week of various law enforcement figures and politicians giving out false information, evasive answers to direct questions, and now trying to hide from reporters.
As you may know, last Friday, Colonel Steven McCraw, Director of the Texas Department of Public Safety finally gave out some hard facts, days after the shooting, revealing finally how police on the scene in the school were ordered to stand by and had to listen as a gunman continued to shoot inside that classroom, not just when the gunman first entered, but again at 11:37, and then at 11:38, and then at 11:40 AM, and then again 11:44 AM.
As the minutes ticked by, we now know police were in the hallway outside the classroom, listening, waiting, because according to Colonel McCraw, the incident commander believed they needed to wait for a tactical team to come in, believing that it was no longer -- that it was a situation of a person now barricaded in a classroom and that there was no reason to rush in and try to stop that shooter as the shots continued to fire.
At that point, there were 19 police officers in the hall listening as shots went off minute after minute, and 9-1-1 calls were also coming in from the classroom, one at 12:10, another 12:13, a child calling for help. She called again at 12:16 according to police and more calls after that. A full hour went by before that tactical team finally acted and killed the gunman.
That incident commander is Pete Arredondo, Chief of the Uvalde School District's Police Force at the time. He is also now a freshly minted member of Uvalde's City Council. He is the one who Texas State law enforcement officials say has not responded to a request for a follow- up interview about the shooting.
It's the same Pete Arredondo who did not answer questions after making a brief statement on the day of the shooting with no actual details of what happened and hasn't said anything since.
Well today, CNN's Shimon Prokupecz who by the way has done a remarkable reporting job since this shooting began trying to get answers day after day. Well, he found Arredondo and I just want to play for you how that went.
And in particular, listen to Mr. Arredondo's has explanation about why he isn't saying anything in public or giving out any facts or having anyone give out actual information to parents about what happened to their children and why he chose to not follow universally accepted active shooter protocols.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SHIMON PROKUPECZ, CNN CRIME AND JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Chief, how are you?
PETE ARREDONDO, CHIE OF POLICE, UVALDE SCHOOL DISTRICT: Hello.
PROKUPECZ: Can I talk to you about your decision on what the DPS --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How are you, sir? How is it going?
ARREDONDO: I'm good. I'm Pete. Nice to meet you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nice to meet you.
PROKUPECZ: I want to talk to you about --
ARREDONDO: What's your intention and what Department -- but just to let you all know, I just spoke with --
PROKUPECZ: I know you did, but --
ARREDONDO: You're not blocking me, are you?
PROKUPECZ: No, no. Let me turn this way.
ARREDONDO: Just so you all know, just so you all know, I am listening. We are not going to release anything. We have we have people in our community being buried, sir. So we're going to be respectful.
PROKUPECZ: I just want your reaction --
ARREDONDO: We're going to be -- we are going to be --
PROKUPECZ: To Director McCraw saying that you were responsible for the decision.
ARREDONDO: Right. We're going to be --
PROKUPECZ: To go into that room. How do you explain yourself?
ARREDONDO: We are going to be -- we're going to be respectful to the families --
PROKUPECZ: I understand that, but you have an opportunity --
ARREDONDO: Oh, and sure, we are going to --
PROKUPECZ: To explain yourself to the parents.
ARREDONDO: Just so you know, we are going to do that eventually, obviously.
ARREDONDO: And whenever this is done, we will let families quit grieving, then we'll do that, obviously. And just so everybody -- and just so everybody --
PROKUPECZ: You understand how the families feel --
ARREDONDO: So everybody knows, we've been in contact with DPS every day, just so you all know, every day.
PROKUPECZ: They say you're not -- they say that you're not cooperating.
ARREDONDO: I've been on the phone with them every day.
PROKUPECZ: They say you're not cooperating. So, just two seconds.
ARREDONDO: Just so you know, we've been talking to them every day.
PROKUPECZ: What is your reaction? What is your reaction, sir?
ARREDONDO: I appreciate you all. You all have a good day.
PROKUPECZ: What is your reaction, sir?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: So he isn't releasing any information because, quote, "We're going to be respectful during the burial period." And when Shimon presses him, he follows up by saying, they'll give out factual information, quote, "Whenever this is done, and we let the families quit grieving." Really?
This is why Pete Arredondo has been silent for more than a week because he is being respectful. Respectful would have been to make the right decisions, decisions based on training that any law enforcement officer in this country should have had by now that that would have been respectful.
Also, not letting false information linger out there for days, false information, which by the way, just happened to cover for what appears to be this man's own inept response.
Remember, all that talk about the gunman barricaded in the classroom as if he had somehow built some sort of fortification. He wasn't barricaded. He had locked the door. There were 19 officers with guns outside that door. It was locked. They finally got a key from the janitor, we now know that.
So Pete Arredondo apparently thinks it is respectful to let false information that portrays him and his decisions in a positive light, remain in parents' minds, but correcting that and keeping parents informed, that is somehow disrespectful.
As for Mr. Arredondo's statement that he'll reveal the truth once the families, quote, "quit grieving." I think he might want to understand that when your child dies, you never quit grieving. It doesn't stop. Life is never the same.
They may have to return to work and try to return to some semblance of their former lives, but it will never be the same. That bed will always be empty in their home.
Shimon Prokupecz joins us now from Uvalde.
Shimon, I mean, again, you've just been doing such an important job in trying to get answers. And I've got to say, it just -- it really is hard to watch the way, you know, some law enforcement figures in this town have continued to stonewall and continued to cherry pick facts, you know, focus on well, we spent a lot of time breaking windows and getting other kids out, which is great and important, but 19 officers, I mean, I reread what, you know, what McCraw's statement was on Friday.
I mean, the details are sickening, 19 officers standing in a hallway, minute by minute as 9-1-1 calls are coming in and they were listening to more shots, as they're being told, I guess by their incident commander, that oh, no, no, this is not -- everybody is dead. I guess that's what the incident commander thought, or claimed, because I don't know how he would know that because no one had actually checked on the bodies because they couldn't get in the classroom, or they wouldn't get in the classroom.
The Chief said he would explain himself to the parents after quote, "We let the families quit grieving." Have you ever heard of an explanation like that?
PROKUPECZ: No, I've never, Anderson.
In fact, any Police Chief at any scene, especially after something like this, where so many children were victims, dead, injured, is out there explaining things to parents, explaining things to the public.
He has been hiding, Anderson. He has been ducking. He has been hiding -- other officials, there were several press conferences after this by the Governor, by the State authorities and he was nowhere to be found.
COOPER: And by the way, they gave the Governor wrong information and the Governor went out there praising law enforcement, praising the response saying, you know, if it wasn't for them going in when the bullets were firing, we now know that that is not actually really what occurred.
And also for him to say to you, you know, we're being respectful, the implication is you're not being respectful, because you're just asking questions that a lot of grieving parents would like answers to frankly.
By claiming that he is being respectful in a way that covers his own ass is just -- I was stunned when I first heard this.
PROKUPECZ: Yes, but it's also his demeanor there. If you notice, there is really no sympathy there. Right? It's more about him and him protecting himself and that's how he has carried himself through this.
It is one of the reasons why I think it's been so important to confront these officials here, to get them to answer these questions because they clearly have been hiding this information since the beginning, wanting to paint sort of this light, sort of that they did everything right, that they went in there and that they were heroes.
And that has been always the issue here, and for this Chief, who we haven't seen for days, I mean, we've been outside his house. This morning, we saw him outside his house and then we went to his office where we were able to confront him. He is going to work.
He just got elected to the City Council. They hold a private swearing in for him last night, the Mayor protecting him so that we would not be able to question him. So you have to ask, what is going on here? And why is it that we keep getting stonewalled at every turn by several different authorities?
COOPER: Yes. And I've got to say, I went back because I was thinking, am I like insane? Am I overreacting to this? I went back I've read every single like, press conference they gave, every single statement, every law enforcement official has made and it is all so carefully worded. That it's -- I mean, when you look at it, in retrospect, it just is all to gloss over 42 minutes to an hour that they knew nothing was being done.
PROKUPECZ: No, you're absolutely right. And even when we would confront them with questions, they're like, oh, we will get back to you. Right? Remember that last Thursday at that press conference. They knew what I was asking. They knew where I was going, everyone I talked to the minute I landed here, that was the big question for me: What was going on in that hour?
I have never, never seen police officials conduct themselves in this way. Sadly, I've covered several mass shootings, several high crime incidents, I have never seen officials conduct themselves this way.
And you know, Anderson, to your point, many of the people in this community are thankful for us seeking the answers. It's not about us. But they are thankful for it. And some of these officials would like to see us pack our bags and leave and not go around, chasing them to try and get answers.
COOPER: Well, of course. This is what the strategy is. The strategy is, you know, being respectful until the funerals are over, which will be, I don't know, a week to two weeks, at which point, there is not going to be a lot of media there probably, and the rest of the country is going to move on, and they're going to then issue at some point down the road or report months from now that won't get the attention that it should get.
And, you know, and this kind of thing will just be swept under the rug because that's how what they are trying to do under the guise of being respectful, and that is the most disrespectful thing you can possibly give to a group of parents whose children have just been murdered.
I mean, it's -- again, Shimon, I'm thankful for your reporting. Thank you.
I want to get some perspective now from CNN senior law enforcement analyst and former FBI Deputy Director, Andrew McCabe.
Andrew, you and I spoke, it was the day after the shooting when I was down there, and you were raising questions then about, you know, this response, which clearly it was -- there was something that was not right, it was obvious that, you know, 40 minutes to an hour go by when there is an active shooter situation, that is a complete reversal and incomplete, you know, ignoring active shooter protocol.
What do you make of Chief Arredondo's responses here? ANDREW MCCABE, CNN SENIOR LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Well, I've just
first say, Anderson, as a member of the law enforcement community, as a leader in the law enforcement community, I have enormous pride in my own service to this country and for what my colleagues did and continue to do.
And as a member of that community, I have to tell you, this is sickening to watch. It is absolutely so -- it is so contrary to everything that you are taught and encouraged to do as a person who is entrusted with protecting the community to have this man literally hiding behind the grief of families who are burying their children.
It is absolutely -- it is horrendous. It's inexplicable, and he should it be called out by people like Shimon as often as possible. And it's -- I can't explain it.
COOPER: When it comes to his cooperation or possible lack thereof, it seems, how is this stage in the investigation supposed to work? And what are the ramifications if Chief Arredondo is not being as forthcoming as we are led to believe he is not being?
MCCABE: Yes, so law enforcement agencies typically -- there is no predicate for this. There is no template for when you come in to figure out what happened in a mass casualty event. The law enforcement agencies are resisting providing information, yet in this situation, not only have they provided misinformation on numerous occasions about all kinds of important details, but they've done so in a way that is clearly an effort to represent themselves in the best light possible even when that light is complete fiction.
So I have never seen and I've managed the FBI's response to numerous crisis events from the Pulse Nightclub shooting, the Boston Marathon bombing, and on and on and on and on and I have never seen a situation like this where not only are they parsimonious with the facts, and incompetent in their relation of exactly what happened, but they appear to be engaged in a deliberate effort to cover up their own decisions and the impact that those decisions had on the lives of 19 children and two teachers. It's just unbelievable.
COOPER: I also just want to say, and I'm going to hold myself to this, I don't care how long it takes for this report to be made public. And whenever Chief Arredondo, when the information actually finally does come out and if it's buried in some report, a year from now, we are going to focus on it and pay attention to it and go into it in great detail because it is the idea that there -- you know, it's very possible part of his strategy is just oh, you know, let's just wait to all these outsiders leave and this thing -- it'll just be the grieving families left, although in his mind, I guess they stop grieving at a certain point, you know, it will just be these families left and then, you know, we'll tell them what we're going to tell them.
MCCABE: Well, when that day comes, Anderson, when that day comes, I'll be here to do it with you because I have great concerns about the DOJ investigation. It is not a criminal investigation, so they won't have a grand jury and grand jury subpoenas and things like that to force people to comply with their efforts. So I'm concerned about how that's going to go.
But I absolutely agree, we need to stay focused on what happened here and hold people accountable.
COOPER: Yes. This is just wrong. Andrew McCabe, I appreciate it. Thank you.
Coming next, the verdict in Johnny Depp's defamation lawsuit against his ex-wife and her suit against him.
And later, an exclusive for the first time since leaving his job, a former senior adviser of the House January 6 Committee talks about the scope of the investigation, what he says has already uncovered about how much deeper, broader, and more alarming the attempt to overturn the 2020 election actually was.
COOPER: The Amber Heard- Johnny Depp Court battle is over tonight for now. A jury in Fairfax, Virginia finding Heard and ex-husband Depp liable for defamation in their lawsuits against each other. He sued her over a 2018 "Washington Post" op-ed that you wrote, in it, without naming Depp, she described herself as quote. "A public figure representing domestic abuse."
Allegations detailing that abuse and counter allegations by Depp dominated the trial. Jurors found that Heard defamed Depp in three separate statements in "The Post" piece and that Depp depth defamed Heard with one statement his attorney made.
The jury awarded Depp $10 million in compensatory damages, $5 million in punitive damages. Then the judge reduced that to the state cap of $350,000.00. The jury awarded her $2 million in compensatory damages and no money for punitive damages.
More now on the testimony that went into their decision. Randi Kay has that.
JOHNNY DEPP, ACTOR: Never did I myself reach the point of striking Miss Heard in any way.
RANDI KAYE, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Actor, Johnny Depp in Court vowing he is not the abusive monster his ex-wife made him out to be. Both he and Amber Heard testified at length during the six-week trial, offering differing accounts of alleged abuse.
DEPP: The first bottle went --
KAYE (voice over): Depp said during a 2015 trip to Australia, Heard threw a vodka bottle at him that cut off the top of one of his fingers.
DEPP: I looked down and realized that the tip of my finger had been severed.
KAYE (voice over): For her part, Heard told the jury Depp sexually assaulted her using a liquor bottle.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you recall what Mr. Depp was saying to you when he had the bottle and was pushing it against your pubic bone?
AMBER HEARD, ACTRESS: He said that he'd [bleep] kill me, I'll [bleep] kill you.
KAYE (voice over): More disturbing details came to light when Depp testified he'd found feces in the couple's bed back in 2016. Depp's security guard pointed the finger at Heard, yet she blamed it on the dog.
Each side tried to paint the other as the abuser.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You didn't.
KAYE (voice over): Heard's lawyers introduced 2013 text messages from Depp in which he wrote a friend about Heard. "Let's drown her before we burn her, and I will eff her burned corpse afterward to make sure she is dead." Depp explained them away in court as irreverent.
CAMILLE VASQUEZ, ATTORNEY: That would be April 8th --
KAYE (voice over): Depp's lawyers tried to diminish Heard's credibility, citing this journal entry she wrote to Depp apologizing for hurting him.
VASQUEZ: "I'm sorry, I can get crazy. I'm sorry I hurt you."
KAYE (voice over): His lawyers also accused her of doctoring photos of her injuries which she denied, and they pointed out what they said was the absurdity of her giving Depp a knife as a gift.
VASQUEZ: That's the knife you gave to the man who was hitting you, right, Miss Heard?
HEARD: I wasn't worried he was going to stab me with it when I gave it to him. That's for certain.
KAYE (voice over): More damning testimony against Depp came from Amber Heard's sister who said she witnessed Depp's abuse.
WHITNEY HEARD HENRIQUEZ, AMBER HEARD'S SISTER: Johnny had already grabbed Amber by the hair with one hand and was whacking her repeatedly in the face with the other.
KAYE (voice over): And among the more than two dozen witnesses, orthopedic surgeons, psychiatrists, and a supermodel, Kate Moss testified in Depp's defense to debunked the claim he wants pushed her down a flight of stairs. KATE MOSS, SUPERMODEL: We were leaving the room and Johnny left the
room before I did, and there had been a rainstorm, and as I left the room, I slid down the stairs and I hurt my back.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did Mr. Depp push you in any way down the stairs?
KAYE: In the end, it came down to who the jury saw as the true victim, Johnny Depp or Amber Heard.
DEPP: But I have never in my life committed sexual battery, physical abuse.
HEARD: I call them horrible, ugly things as you can hear.
VASQUEZ: So loud.
HEARD: We spoke to each other in a really horrible way.
KAYE (voice-over): Randi Kaye, CNN, Palm Beach County, Florida.
COOPER: Well, coming up one week from tomorrow, the January 6 committee begins a series of eight public hearings. Former Republican Congressman Denver Riggleman who recently worked with the committee as a senior technical advisor is going to join us, talk about what the public may learn about the attack on the Capitol and the former president.
COOPER: A week from tomorrow the January 6 committee will hold it's first of eight public hearings this month after nearly a year's work. More than thousand interviews and despite massive Republican obstruction. In particular from House Republican Leader Kevin McCarthy and four other Republicans they've refused to comply with the committee's subpoenas for information.
REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY (R-CA) HOUSE MINORITY LEADER: My position has not changed on this committee, is not valid because Republicans were not allowed to appoint anybody. This is purely Pelosi appointed.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Now, what Leader McCarthy said today is not true. Speaker Pelosi rejected two McCarthy's appointments. One of them Jim Jordan is one of the five who've refused to comply with the committee's subpoenas. She gave McCarthy the option to replace the two who are objected. He declined and pulled the three members who were accepted. Several Republican members of Congress did end up working with the committee and a CNN exclusive one of them joins me tonight, former Republican Congressman Denver Riggleman of Virginia. This his first interview since serving on the committee as a senior technical advisor and leaving it.
Former White House Chief of Staff Mark Meadows has been a key source of information as he provided thousands of text messages to the committee. How valuable has the information he provided been, to uncovering how extensive the efforts to overturn the election were?
DENVER RIGGLEMAN (R-VA) FMR CONGRESSMAN: Yes, and thanks for having me Anderson. I think, you know, is my team was the first to actually see the metis text messages when we were able to link the numbers and the names together after we got the thousands of text messages. So to look at it, it's almost a roadmap to what happened. And a lot of the texts haven't come out. Thankfully, I think the committee is going to do a great job of linking those text messages to the other interviews and data that they have. But I think what people are going to understand about the metis text messages is how horrible they are.
I have to tell you this Anderson, when I first saw them, my amusement turned into horror pretty quickly, when I saw some of the language that was being used in there, actually had to get away from the computer a couple of times as I was looking at these text messages, and you know, starting November 3rd, November 4th, in the Meadows text messages all the way to the end. It is a roadmap. And I would have to say at this point, I think Mark Meadows is the MVP for the committee, I think they should pay him. The data that we got from there actually allowed us to really structure an effective investigation.
COOPER: I mean, you mentioned this, many of the text messages that Meadow is provided, were the phone numbers that weren't attached to a name, who was Meadows communicating with and how did you figure that out?
RIGGLEMAN: Well, you know, I was fortunate when I was brought on as a senior technical advisor, you know, Congress really was just my cover Anderson, you know, my background was in the intelligence community and Department of Defense for 20 years. And, you know, I did a lot of telephony analysis, geolocation and things like that in my life. I was actually trained at NSA, but I was also trained with Air Force Special Projects.
And so, when they brought me on live on the Pelosi team, when I interviewed, they understood that I had this background that was very unique, you know, for somebody in Congress. So I wrote the contracts for the phone record team and the contract for the Open Source Intelligence Research Team, put the funding together, because I was a CEO, I did do program management for those type of programs. And I was able to handpick those teams that support three letter agencies. And right now, I would say that without those teams, I think they're the real heroes of this investigation.
You know, I don't like to use their names. But if I can talk about, you know, Golf, Bravo, and Mike, Tango, right, and those type of individuals that are out there right now, another Mike, Tango, right, all these people that have been helping with these contracts, and with this analysis. Other some of the best individuals I've ever met. And the fact is, we had to hand select these teams, people who had supported three letter agencies, and then build an unclassified lab that tried to mimic a classified lab. And we were able to do that on a pretty limited budget. And I'm very proud of them.
But, you know, linking those numbers to those names are specific types of databases. I'm not going to mention those names right now. But we were very effective in helping the committee not only linking names to numbers, thousands of them. We're also very effective in helping with writing the subpoenas for preservation records for call detail records, and also actually identifying other I would say other high value assets, right that were in the ecosystem at that time.
COOPER: You said right, before you did, you were so troubled by what you saw that you had to step away from your computer. What do you mean, what did you see that was so troubled?
RIGGLEMAN: I think, you know, I think, you know, I said before, you know, you start with these people can actually believe these things, but I was looking at former colleagues that were sending horrific things. You know, whether it was, I would say foreign disinformation videos from YouTube or rumble or parlor, I was looking at things that it almost looks like it was a holy war within the text messages themselves. And it was --
COOPER: Either sitting members of Congress, you're talking about?
RIGGLEMAN: You know -- that's correct. Sitting and former members of Congress, you're talking about Trump appointees, you're talking about fundraisers and donors. You're talking about group tax and, you know, I would get something Anderson that might be as crazy as you know, the orcs are storming the bridge, right. And we hit need to have some wizard spells to cast on them to, you know, stop the, you know, the monkey birds from attacking us. And I would have somebody high up, you know, very high up in the Trump administration. Oh, that's interesting. I wonder if that's true.
And it wasn't just what they were saying. It wasn't just the sort of spiritual warfare coupled with, you know, QAnon type of religiosity and types of conspiracy theories, it was a fact that nobody pushed back or they would tacitly agree, or they would say, this is the plan that we need to do. And the names that you're seeing out there right now, the news that's reported there's some amazing open source intelligence researchers things like that, the people can see on Twitter and other posts. Those people are in these text messages.
And when you see them, Anderson, it is a roadmap. But it also is something that you, you really have to try to get your arms around. I've read those text messages so many times, you know, you almost feel like you're reading a fantasy novel. And I think people need to understand that the committee has an amazing challenge to try to get around the horror of those text messages and some of the things that you see on there. And it is horror, because these are people that are serving our government. And you can see, you know, almost QAnon and other conspiracy theories had inundated the Republican Party all the way up to the top levels. And you know, some of those were like to Jenny Thomas texts and things like that. It's absolutely stunning that these individuals enter a position of power making policy.
COOPER: You also found out the Meadows and the people he was texting with would move their conversations to encrypted platforms. I know, I remember seeing one that, you know, we said, OK, let's -- I'm sending you something on signal. You had no way of accessing those communications, right? Well, I mean, will we ever know --
RIGGLEMAN: That's correct.
COOPER: -- what transpired on signal and elsewhere?
RIGGLEMAN: Unless they given up voluntarily, and I think the committee has been very effective in identifying some of those individuals that were willing to cooperate. So, some of those signal chats were given voluntarily, and also other text message chats. And, you know, what's interesting Anderson is, you know, my biggest fear of talking to you is, is not just making sure, you know, I don't anger too many people, since I seem to have a propensity to do that based on data. But it's also that I don't want to give away how we do things too much, because I'm worried.
The thing that I have a lot of concern about with the committee is that we're giving away almost a playbook or a new, what we say in the military tactics, techniques and procedures or TTPs, that we're giving something away based on this report. So the things that we have done, how we've identified individuals, how we've linked certain types of data, I believe, is so robust that I'm almost afraid to go too deep into how we find these things.
But right now, we're close to 20 million lines of data. Anderson, this is the biggest data exercise and effort in the history of Congress. And it has been, it's been a hell of a thing to try to get our arms around. But again, I think the committee is going to do a good job moving forward and trying to link all that data.
COOPER: I mean you -- what you're describing sounds like people within the government talking about a coup of our democracy.
RIGGLEMAN: You know, Anderson, you know, when I first started this, you know, I was afraid to use that term, because I wanted to see the data. You know, the term I like to use was coup like movements, right? It's, it's a military thing. When we had -- we would make fun of people who said they were working, but they weren't work like movements, right? They were just talking.
But looking at the interconnectivity between people we call the centers of gravity and telephony analysis, so many people are communicating, the link analysis is absolutely massive. And what the committee has to do, because we're limited in our authorities, there's some disinformation out there that, you know, we can see content writer (ph), we've got geo locations for telephones, things like that we don't. So we had to use unclassified data platforms to try to recreate and find that type of data. So we are limited and what we can see. But what we can see is absolutely damning. And the committee has to actually push all those nodes together, all those little endpoints that are people or organizations, they have to link that with a thousand interviews that they did, e-mails that they have things like that, that I've been able to see. But also with the massive amount of data we've been able to aggregate and analyze.
And I think that's very important for people to understand that the challenge for this committee, they might not cover everything, because we have such a short amount of time. But Anderson, I would say we need another year to actually look at the amount of data that we have to see how deep this actually went.
COOPER: I mean, based on what you've seen, can you say how high you think this effort to overturn the election goes? Does the committee have information about the former president's you know, involvement that isn't already known?
RIGGLEMAN: I don't want to take the committee, Anderson, but I'll tell you this, which I think the American people should watch out for, and I can actually refer to the Meadows text messages. When you see text messages that have all three branches of government involved, and the one that really bothered me was the forwarded text from Ginni Thomas to Mark Meadows, from Connie Hair was a chief of staff for Louie Gohmert. You know, we had the wife of a sitting Supreme Court Justice, we had the Chief of Staff of a congressman, the Chief of Staff of a president on one text message. When you talk about horror, when you talk about concern, when you talk about seeing the type of language that they're using this fantastical language, this call to arms, this is our Omaha Beach. When you see the -- you know, the five most chilling words was the first text. I hope this is true. And you're talking about Gitmo and you're talking about things like that at the top levels of government. I would say that the committee is going to have the ability to see what's going on there.
And I guess it's just so troubling, because if I see people just talk about opinions or things like that, the issue is that these were policymakers at the top echelon, the top levels of government, and the committee has to decide this. And the American people have to decide this when they see the committee's evidence. Number one was President Trump just sort of in the current a willing participant where he was led by others by the nose. It really didn't know what was going on. Number two, is that somewhere in the middle, right, where he had situational awareness he sort of knew what was going on sort of had plans. And sort of was just a willing participant right and had some control. Or number three the last one, was he really part of the command and control infrastructure? And how deep does that go? And was he a willing participant?
And I think the data is going to be very compelling from the committee, but I think it's up to the American people after that's presented to come up using facts not fantasy or opinion using facts on what they think the culpability of the president is and the people around him.
COOPER: Denver Riggleman, appreciate your talking to us tonight. Thank you. I look forward to more.
RIGGLEMAN: Thank you so much Anderson.
COOPER: Got a live update next on the shooting in Tulsa. We'll be right back.
COOPER: Since we first reported this at the top of the hour the death toll tonight's mass shooting in Tulsa has now climbed to four plus the shooter. Local officials spoke just moments ago. Want to go back to CNN's Joe Johns who has the latest.
What else do you learn?
JOE JOHNS, CNN SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: We picked up a few more details from deputy police chief who briefed just a little while ago. Anderson, listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ERIC DALGLEISH, DEPUTY CHIEF, TULSA POLICE DEPARTMENT: At 1650 to 4:52 hours, our dispatch received a call it an active shooter at the Natalie medical building at 6457 South Yale Avenue. We had officers go arrive at the location at 4:56, so a three-minute response time and make contact with victims and the suspect at 5:01. And that was them making their way to the second for the officers that didn't arrive. We're hearing shots in the building, and that's what directed them to the second floor.
Right now we have four civilians that are dead. We have one shooter that is dead. And right now we believe that is self-inflicted.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: And Joe, I spoke to the city councilor there earlier tonight. He said, the gunman may have been targeting a specific physician, did the police say anything about that?
JOHNS: No, they didn't say anything further. What we do know is there have been persistent reports that the shooter went to the hospital, looking for a specific doctor, it's not clear whether he found a doctor and the doctor he was looking for. The other thing I think it's important to say is authorities are not sure whether there were just regular people, patients in other words, and medical people or both who were actually shot in this situation there in Tulsa.
COOPER: And (INAUDIBLE) the police have yet to identify the suspect.
JOHNS: Correct. They have yet to identify him however, they do seem to know his age and they say he is 35 years old. And that's about all they can say, they are not ready to positively identify the shooter.
COOPER: All right, Joe Johns, appreciate it. Thanks. Coming up next, a welcome ray of light on a pretty dark day and a winner go home soccer match on the road to the World Cup Ukraine's national men's team won. Details, when we come back.
COOPER: We'll leave you tonight with something we hope will bring a smile, certainly gave millions of war torn Ukrainian something to cheer about. Ukraine soccer team is now just one win away from qualifying for the 2022 World Cup. It's after they top Scotland 3-1 today in their first match since Russia invaded Ukraine. A match that was delayed by nearly two months because of the war. Ukraine will face Wales on Sunday and if they win, they'll play the United States in the opening game, the tournaments group the matchups.
News continues, Laura Coates in "CNN TONIGHT," after a short break.
LAURA COATES, CNN HOST: I'm Laura Coates and this is "CNN TONIGHT."