Return to Transcripts main page
Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees
Fourth January 6 Hearing Highlights Trump's Plot To Change Georgia And Arizona Results; Trump Continues To Defend Call Pressuring Georgia Election Officials; 4th Jan. 6 Hearing Focuses On Trump's Intimidation Of State Officials; AZ House Speaker: Giulliani "Never" Offered Proof Of Fraud Claims; Right-Wing Extremism Expert On The Rise Of Political Violence. Aired 8-9p ET
Aired June 21, 2022 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
EVAN PEREZ, CNN SENIOR U.S. JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: You can see today from what the Committee was focusing on -- Erin.
ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: All right, thank you very much, Evan.
And thanks very much to all of you for joining us. Our coverage of the January 6 Committee hearings continues now with a Special Edition of AC 360.
[20:00:20]
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: Good evening.
I'm Anderson Cooper along with my colleague, Jake Tapper.
Tonight, we are going inside one of the most riveting days of testimony and the four days of hearing so far. The fourth hearing by the January 6 Committee, there is just no other way to describe what we saw today, a series of Republican state officials, putting country ahead of party, testifying to the intense pressure they were under by the former President and his allies to help overturn the 2020 elections.
JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: This is also a deeply emotional days as well, for many of these witnesses, some having to collect themselves as they spoke about the toll their decisions have taken on themselves, as well as on their families having to withstand the demonstrations and threats of violence of those inspired by the former President who were often quite literally outside their doors.
COOPER: Some of the most personal and damning testimony we heard today came from Arizona's Republican Speaker of the House, Rusty Bowers is his name. He was one of those officials who was pressured directly by the former President's legal advisers. He offered more evidence today that they all knew their scheme was illegal and he spoke of his refusal to help not only in terms of law, but also his faith.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RUSTY BOWERS (R), ARIZONA SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: It is a tenet of my faith that the Constitution is divinely inspired of my most basic foundational beliefs.
And so for me to do that because somebody just asked me to is foreign to my very being, I will not do it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: There was also a key moments of testimony during today's hearing that for the first time directly linked the former President to the utterly bizarre scheme to install fake electors in seven states to swing the election.
Equally important was who was providing that testimony, Ronna McDaniel, the Chairwoman of the Republican National Party and a strong ally of the former President.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
QUESTION: What did the President say when he called you?
RONNA MCDANIEL, CHAIRWOMAN, REPUBLICAN NATIONAL COMMITTEE: Essentially, he turned the call over to Mr. Eastman, who then proceeded to talk about the importance of the RNC helping the campaign gather these contingent electors in case any of the legal challenges that were ongoing change the result of any of the states. I think more just helping them reach out and assemble them.
But my understanding is the campaign did take the lead. And we just were helping them in that role.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: That was potentially the most legally significant, but perhaps most poignant was the testimony of an election worker, and Georgian, who became a target of the former President and his team and supporters and was forced to endure countless threats. She said many of them were racist and left her afraid to just live her life.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WANDREA "SHAYE" MOSS, FORMER GEORGIAN ELECTION WORKER: I don't want anyone knowing my name. I don't want to go anywhere with my mom, because she might yell my name out over the grocery aisle or something.
I don't go to the grocery store at all. I haven't been anywhere at all. I gained about 60 pounds. I just don't do nothing anymore. I don't want to go anywhere. I second guess everything that I do. It has affected my life and in a major way, every way all because of lies.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: "Because of lies."
Much of today's testimony involved election officials and workers from the state of Georgia. Joining me now is Georgia Lieutenant Governor Geoff Duncan, who as is
the case with many who have testified in these hearings, a conservative Republican who supported Donald Trump.
Lieutenant Governor Duncan, thanks for joining us.
As we mentioned, you're Republican. You work alongside two other Republicans who testified today. Georgia's Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger and Georgia elections official Gabe Sterling.
I spoke with you before today's hearing about what you expected. Hearing has now happened. What stood out to you today from their testimony?
LT. GOV. GEOFF DUNCAN (R), GEORGIA: Well, it certainly was refreshing to me and I would imagine tens of millions of other Republicans in the country to hear Brad Raffensperger and Gabe Sterling and Speaker Bowers to talk with such clarity and confidence about what they did.
I also think a big takeaway was the weight. It gave America a glimpse of the weight of a President working against you and willing to lie about it and what that feels like and how disruptive that is to the process.
[20:05:07]
TAPPER: I want to play something from what Secretary Raffensperger said in his testimony. Let's watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. ADAM SCHIFF (D-CA): And, Mr. Secretary, why didn't you just quit and walk away?
BRAD RAFFENSPERGER (R), GEORGIA SECRETARY OF STATE: Because I knew that we had follow the law, and we had to follow the Constitution.
I think sometimes, moments require you to stand up and just take the shots. You're doing your job, and that's all we did. You know, we just followed the law and we followed the Constitution.
And at the end of the day, President Trump came up short.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: What do you think might have happened if people like Secretary Raffensperger didn't stand up to the former President?
DUNCAN: Yes. I've thought a lot about this. I put it in my book and spent some time really trying to tease out what it would look like if a Brad Raffensperger would have stepped in front of a microphone for 10 seconds and spread some doubt as to where the election was going to head and what the security of that election was, or Governor Kemp would have alluded to some sort of fraud, or a Geoff Duncan would have stood up and said we should call a special session just because the sitting President wants us to. It would have created complete chaos. Two and a half million votes in
Georgia would have been nullified and so would have millions of votes around the country. And quite honestly, that's not what we were elected to do.
We were elected at its core to follow the Constitution and follow the law. It didn't work out for us. We have time to regroup and figure out a better pathway forward, and I think these January 6 hearings are going to be a true launching pad for a GOP 2.0, a different direction, a better direction, that's a better competitor to a Joe Biden agenda that's quite honestly failing America.
TAPPER: Secretary Raffensperger also spoke about threats he received, and that his wife received, his daughter-in-law's home was broken into. His son has passed away.
Despite all of that, he is continuing to fight for the rule of law. He ran for re-election. Are you worried, however, that experiences such as the ones that he had, and the Georgia elections official, and Speaker of the House in Arizona Bowers, et cetera, could have a chilling effect? Could have the -- I mean, that's what terrorism is, right? It terrorizes people, so they behave a certain way. Could this end up discouraging people from doing the right thing?
DUNCAN: Look, there has never been a time where leadership mattered more than right now and it is being put on display. We've got to have leadership in this country. We've got to have folks willing to stand up and do the right thing and lead this country in a better direction.
And right now, you know, if I'm looking at Democrats, I'm sure many of them would admit that Joe Biden is not the right answer. Millions of Republicans would admit Donald Trump is not the right answer.
It is time for us to step up and tackle the real problems, and we're not going to do that without leadership. If we just simply pay attention to the flyers in our mailbox or the 10 second soundbites on YouTube, we're going to keep electing clowns to run this country. We need real leaders.
TAPPER: But isn't -- I mean, I know you're a conservative Republican. You don't support President Biden, but there is a demonstrable difference here in terms of commitment to democracy. You can't really compare the two, we're talking about democracy. Joe Biden, whatever you think about him, and there's certainly plenty of criticisms to be made, he is not trying to undo elections.
DUNCAN: Yes. Absolutely. And Republicans, if we don't get this right, if we don't get democracy, right, if we don't convince the right and the middle, and the left for that matter, that we can control democracy in a way that the Constitution spells it out for us, then we have no chance to really do anything important.
But my assumption is Americans are ready to turn the page. Republicans are ready to turn to page. Donald Trump is going to be an irrelevant part of the 2024 cycle by the time we get there. And I think there's two lanes that are going to develop, there's going to be those that try to look and smell like Donald Trump and then there's going to be a lane that I would support that would try to be, you know, problem solvers, solution seekers, folks that could build consensus and solve real issues.
TAPPER: All right, Georgia Lieutenant Governor, Geoff Duncan, always good to see you. Thank you so much.
DUNCAN: Thanks, Jake.
COOPER: Let's bring in our chief White House correspondent, Kaitlan Collins for some new reporting in how the former President is reacting to today's testimony.
I understand that the former President is keeping a close eye on the hearings. What have you learned?
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: He is paying close attention to these, Anderson. He was pushing back on today's hearing before officials had even testified, going after Rusty Bowers and a conversation they had where he claimed that Bowers had told him he won Arizona, that the election was rigged, something that rusty Bowers later testified under oath he had not said to the former President.
And you've also seen our reporting that the former President has been defending that call to Georgia Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger that was on full display during the hearing today, where he was going after the officials, which they later said they were targeted by, they were harassed because of it.
That is something I'm told that Trump has still been maintaining to people he believes was a perfect call and that he assumed it was being taped and would therefore be made public as it certainly was today multiple times in that hearing.
Anderson, one thing we are picking up on, though, is that as these hearings are going on, the former President is becoming more frustrated by watching them and one of the primary reasons for that is not because of the Democrats on this Committee, but it's because he does not have his aggressive Republican allies on this Committee.
[20:10:10]
Yes, there is Adam Kinzinger and Liz Cheney. They are certainly not allies of the former President and he has been complaining to people about the lack of Republican representation on this Committee, and he is not focusing his ire on that, really, on Democrats. What I'm told more is it is focused on Kevin McCarthy, who, of course, when this Committee was being formed last year, had submitted five picks to House Speaker Pelosi and when she rejected two of them, Jim Jordan and Jim Banks, he withdrew all of his selections.
And now, that is something that Trump is describing, as a foolish decision. He is saying that they need more Republicans on this Committee because he wants to see them pushing back as you're seeing these officials dissect his election lies and, of course, that's not happening.
I should note that Kevin McCarthy did not answer questions about this today, but did say he had spoken to Trump yesterday -- Anderson.
COOPER: And Kaitlan, we should point out that Rusty Bowers in his testimony today was asked by Adam Schiff about President Trump's suggestion that Rusty Bowers had said to him that the election was rigged and President Trump sort of suggesting that he knows that somebody was recording it. Mr. Bowers said categorically that is completely false.
COLLINS: Yes, he said -- confirmed, they did have this phone call in January 2020, but he said he did not tell Trump that the election was rigged. He did not tell him that he had won the state of Arizona which of course he did not. The implication from Trump that there was a tape is something we've seen from him before.
Of course, remember with the former FBI Director James Comey, there was not a tape in that situation. It's sometimes a threat that he makes when it comes to situations like this.
COOPER: Yes, Kaitlan Collins, thanks.
RAPPER: Not all of the news being made by testimony to the January 6 Committee happened inside Capitol Hill today. New reporting from "The New York Times" undercuts what Ivanka Trump said during recorded testimony that aired during the first hearing. You might remember this comment.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
IVANKA TRUMP, DAUGHTER OF DONALD TRUMP: I respected to Attorney General Barr, so I accepted what he was saying.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: I'm joined now by "The New York Times," Maggie Haberman, who broke the story I'm talking about.
Maggie, what are you learning about what Ivanka Trump was saying to cameras filming this documentary in the weeks leading up to January 6 that differed from what she told the Committee?
MAGGIE HABERMAN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Sure, Jake.
So what she told the Committee in that snippet, and we should just be clear, that's the only one of the few pieces that they've released so far. She sat for a much longer interview. We don't yet know what else is there, but from what they replayed publicly, she said that she was affected by Bill Barr, she respected him, et cetera. That was based on a statement that Bill Barr made on December 1st, 2020 to the Associated Press, where he said that there was no widespread fraud that had impacted the election contrary to what the President was saying at the time. President Trump -- then President Trump was furious with Barr for saying it. Nine days later, according to video that we have seen, Ivanka Trump
was recorded by this filmmaker in an interview with him, this person who was making some kind of a documentary about Trump and about people around Trump talking, you know, as to her response to Trump's view of the election, and she endorsed the idea that he should continue fighting and that he should keep seeking every legal remedy -- legal remedy were her words.
She says now there's all of these, you know, questions that people have about, you know, sort of the sanctity of the electoral process, without mentioning the fact that her father's false claims are part of why people had these issues.
She did not use the word fraud, Jake, at least in what we heard, but she did sort of toe this line that was being articulated publicly. I don't know which one she really believed, but those were words that would make her father very happy. And you know, people around her often pointed, she was in a tough position.
She certainly was, but it was a position she put herself in and the view of staff in the White House and in the campaign at that point was the family needed to be doing more to talk to Trump than they were and instead it was left to other people to try to handle the mess.
TAPPER: Has Ivanka Trump responded to questions about this documentary video?
HABERMAN: No, I reached out to an aide for her and I have not heard back. I'm not sure that she will. It's also not clear what else is on their tapes, which were turned over to the Committee today and the filmmaker is supposed to be interviewed by the Committee on Thursday.
TAPPER: All right, Maggie Haberman, thanks so much. Good to see you.
COOPER: Let's get some perspective now from George Conway, conservative attorney and "Washington Post" contributing columnist; Laura Coates, CNN senior legal analyst, former Federal prosecutor; and chief political analyst Gloria Borger and Alyssa Farah Griffin, CNN political commentator and White House Director of Strategic Communications under the former President.
George, what stood out to you today? Because I was watching you watch the testimony and certainly, Rusty Bowers really was very, very powerful right off the top.
GEORGE CONWAY, CONSERVATIVE ATTORNEY: Yes. I thought today was the most moving day of testimony and I think it, in a lot of ways, it is going to be one of the more memorable days of testimony.
I said earlier, this was sort of like the, have you no shame moment of these hearings because of the way, I think the emotional impact of seeing how these election workers, particularly, you know, Shaye Moss and her mother, Lady Ruby were impacted so personally by the Big Lie.
[20:15:26] And it was just -- I mean, the remarkable contrast between Rusty
Bowers and Shaye Moss and Ruby Freeman, doing their jobs, fulfilling their oaths, and then having these people say -- lie about them, and cause physical threats to them. You know, all because of Donald Trump. I mean, the contrast is just -- it was emotionally jarring and I'm a lawyer. I know what I want to hear from these, I want to tick off all the different ways Donald Trump was told that he lost legally and factually, you know, and that's important. But this has much more impact emotionally.
COOPER: Also to see, Laura, I mean, how the President of the United States reaching out by name, selecting some American citizens who are doing their jobs as workers in the election process, and not only attacking them, attacking them in racist ways, calling them -- you know, one of them, a hustler. It's just --
LAURA COATES, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Suggesting that they were handing out heroin and cocaine, they were handing out ginger mints to one another. I mean, there are so many moments that were unconscionable as described.
But I think this was an important day, because up until now, we have been thinking about what happened on January 6, the Committee talked about what happened on January 6, this is what happened and leading up to January 6. The violence that was almost, you know, asked for, and sought after.
The idea of the fact that the violence on January 6 was not the beginning of the story, and that was very much part of what the Committee was focusing on, that everyone was vulnerable because they would not yield to foolishness, to absurd lies, they held their ground.
And that notion of Chairman Bennie Thompson saying, Listen, the reason that democracy stayed is because of a few individuals who were able to do so. Until now, it had all been about Vice President Mike Pence. But it was every single person who said, I actually have a compulsion because I want to provide my sense of duty to do the right thing.
And for them to be in danger because one person decided that they are entitled to be President of United States. It's shocking and it was just so sad to see the people who were most affected.
COOPER: Also to have the President preemptively try to threaten or intimidate Rusty Bowers today. I want to play, Gloria, some of that -- some of what Mr. Bowers said. He is the Speaker of the House in in Arizona, because I mean, if I was an attorney, and I wanted to put a witness that had credibility on a witness stand between former President Trump and Rusty Bowers, I think anybody would go for Rusty Bowers. Let's take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BOWERS: It is painful to have friends who have been such a help to me, turn on me with such rancor. I may, in the eyes of men, not hold correct opinions or act according to their vision or convictions, but I do not take this current situation in a light manner, a fearful manner, or a vengeful manner.
I do not want to be a winner by cheating.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: That's an entry from his diary from the worst of or in the midst of the attacks --
GLORIA BORGER, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, I think he says it all and what was so remarkable to me about his testimony today, and everybody else's was it was sort of more in sorrow than anything else, that he had to go through this at a time when his daughter was very ill.
COOPER: Yes. I mean, terminally ill.
BORGER: Yes.
COOPER: In the house where there is a mob outside yelling, you know, calling her dad a pedophile of all things.
BORGER: Right, and, you know, he outlined chapter and verse of the phone calls that he got, of the phone calls he got from Eastman and from, you know, Rudy Giuliani, the President of the United States, on and on and on. The kind of pressure that was put on him, and yet he stood firm.
And it made me think about, you know, we always hear in Washington, hear about, oh, you know, there's this silent majority of Republicans who really don't like the President, but they're kind of afraid of saying anything, because of what it would do to them.
And then I looked at him today, and I thought, yes, you may be right to be afraid. But look at how strong he looks.
COOPER: Well, you also think, you know, look, he is a conservative, Speaker of the House.
BORGER: Trump supporter.
COOPER: This is totally -- this is not about politics. This is about integrity, and for people who are fearful about the future of the country you know you can look at today as a frightening thing. You can also look at, look, at least these people stood up when it was needed.
[20:20:10]
BORGER: They were the guardrails.
COOPER: Yes. Alyssa, you have such a unique perspective having been in the White House when some of this push was going on. What stood out to you today?
ALYSSA FARAH GRIFFIN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I thought that I couldn't feel worse and more heartbroken than I did after the Pence focused hearing, knowing that the mob got within 40 feet of my former boss, that there was a true threat to the Vice President of the United States.
But today was worse, but I actually, I think was more impactful. It was showing ordinary but extraordinary public servants who are an election worker, you know, a staffer for the Secretary of State with the Georgia Secretary of State who did the right thing.
And what it brought to mind as a Republican, I'm sure George has experienced this, too. So many elected Republicans privately tell me, "I'd love to speak out against Trump, but I fear for my family, my future, my career. What I'm going to hear in my district." Well, everyone who testified today put fear to the wind and did the right thing and the patriotic thing for their country, and I'm so grateful to them.
COOPER: George?
CONWAY: Yes, I absolutely agree with that. I mean, it's just again, the marked contrast between people who are doing their duty and acting honorably and then people like Trump who are lying and fomenting violence is just a -- it's just a sharp. Today was a morality play.
COOPER: And also, for anybody who is watching. They could be Miss Freeman. I mean, they could be any of these people who are plucked out of obscurity by the President of the United States and labeled a pedophile, labeled enemy of the state.
I mean, anybody watching it can happen to you.
COATES: And it makes me so mad about the idea of fear is that we're supposed to be a nation of laws. And one way we try to counter that fear is to hold people accountable, who intimidate those who are involved in elections. We have laws around this very issue. And if we're not holding people accountable for that, people will continue to be in fear.
COOPER: Everybody, stick around. George Conway, thanks. Everyone else is going to stick around. We're going to have a live report from Capitol Hill on one of the other big revelations of this day. A US Senator linked to that scheme to install fake electors to swing the election, our chief congressional correspondent spoke to Wisconsin Republican, Ron Johnson, and got his response.
And later, we're going to delve more into those death threats and intimidation tactics against election officials as we mentioned.
This is our special coverage of the January 6 Hearings.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:26:37]
TAPPER: We mentioned the historic nature of these proceedings at the top of the broadcast. Part of the history being made was the fact that two members of Congress were implicated in the fake electoral scheme during testimony. One of them was apparently Wisconsin Republican Senator, Ron Johnson. Here's part of the testimony about that. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A staffer for Wisconsin Senator Ron Johnson texted a staffer for Vice President Pence just minutes before the beginning of the joint session. This staffer stated that Senator Johnson wished to hand deliver to the Vice President the fake electors' votes from Michigan and Wisconsin.
The Vice President's aide unambiguously instructed them not to deliver the fake votes to the Vice President.
Even though the fake elector slates were transmitted to Congress and the executive branch, the Vice President held firm in his position that his role was to count lawfully submitted electoral votes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: The Committee presented text messages between aides for Republican Senator Ron Johnson and former Vice President Mike Pence. Again, Johnson's aide says he needed to hand something to Pence, when asked what it is, Johnson's aide says, "It's an alternate slate of electors for two states, Wisconsin and Michigan." Pence's aide response, "Do not give that to him."
Senator Johnson has since responded to this. For that we go to our chief congressional correspondent, Manu Raju.
Manu, you caught up with Senator Johnson outside the Capitol. What did he have to say about this slate of fraudulent electors?
MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, he acknowledges that in the morning of January 6, he in fact, was aware that his Chief of Staff had reached out to Mike Pence's office to try to deliver them, the slate of electors.
But he also contends that he does not know the genesis of this push to potentially provide new electors to this from the States of Michigan and Wisconsin and says he has "No idea the person that was behind it."
He also says that he had no involvement whatsoever other than a very brief interaction he had with a staff member who tried to deliver this to the Vice President's office who rejected it. This is what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RAJU: Why was he even asking for that?
SEN. RON JOHNSON (R-WI): Because somebody delivered this to our office and asked to go to the Vice President.
RAJU: did you support his efforts to try to get the slates to the Vice President?
JOHNSON: No. I had no knowledge of this.
RAJU: Who was the person that delivered? JOHNSON: I don't -- you know, I had no involvement in an alternate
slate of electors. I had no idea this had even been delivered to us. It got delivered staff to staff. My Chief of Staff did the right thing, contact the Vice President's staff. They said didn't want it. So we didn't deliver it.
Again, that's the under story.
RAJU: Who is the person that delivered it to your office?
JOHNSON: I have no idea.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RAJU: And I also just asked him moments ago, whether or not he would try to find out the identity of the person behind this. He indicated no interest in doing that. And I also asked him, Jake, just moments ago about why not? Why exactly offer something to the Vice President without vetting this information? He went on to say, we got handed an envelope that was supposed to go to the Vice President. I didn't know -- I didn't know about it, so we just called up the Vice President and offered it.
He claimed it came from a House office initially, but he also said he didn't know who, which House office provided it, so a lot more questions than answers after my interaction multiple times with Ron Johnson tonight.
And also Jake, Andy Biggs, the conservative congressman from Arizona, it was revealed today that he tried to pressure the State House Speaker, Rusty Bowers to decertify the electoral results from Arizona. He declined to comment when asked multiple times on Capitol Hill. But one person did defend Donald Trump today and that was Kevin McCarthy, the Republican Leader and I asked him directly is it right for the President to try to pressure Mike Pence and pressure state election officials to overturn the election results? He said, the President has to right to question an election. Jake.
[20:30:26]
TAPPER: OK. Manu Raju, thanks so much.
COOPER: I want to get something or vice president just contact Ron Johnson and pass it on.
More now in today's testimony tied to the vote in Arizona. Joining me now is Arizona Secretary of State Katie Hobbs, a Democrat who's running for governor in the state. She faced death threats during the election audit in Maricopa County.
Secretary Hobbs, appreciate you being with us. Arizona House Speaker Rusty Bowers spoke at length during today's hearing about the direct pressure from the former president and his allies to decertify Biden's victory in the state. Watching him, I'm wondering what your takeaways were? KATIE HOBBS (D-AZ) SECRETARY OF STATE: Well, I think first of all, it came across very clearly he's an honorable man. And I think that what I -- what was reinforced today is that Republican officials faced a whole different kind of pressure than Democratic officials did. I never got calls like that. But what the former president and his allies tried to do is play the loyalty to party card over country and by loyalty to party I mean loyalty to him. And, you know, Rusty has clearly faced a lot of consequences for not caving to that pressure. But he was unequivocal in the fact that he was being asked to break the law and wasn't going to do that, he was upholding his oath to the Constitution of our state in the country.
COOPER: And that's one of, one of the things that stood out to me, at least again, in all the people today. That is what it takes, you know, we talked about these institutions of democracy, they only our institutions, because it takes honorable people in all these positions, doing the right thing, do following the Constitution, following their oath.
HOBBS: And I think that it's -- that's the bare minimum that we can ask people to do. And it's really sad that that's, you know, where we're at right now. We need folks who are willing to step up and do more than that. And, you know, this is on the ballot up and down the ballot in Arizona and across the country. This year, the future of our democracy is on the ballot. It's why I'm running for governor, and we need leaders who, despite party, regardless of party are going to uphold the oath that they take when they get sworn into office.
COOPER: We also wanted to today's hearing the Congressman Andy Biggs, Republican from your state urged speaker Bowers to throw out Biden electors and replace them with completely phony electors for the former president on the morning of January 6. Were you surprised by that? I'm wondering what your reaction was.
HOBBS: I mean, unfortunately, no, I'm not surprised. He's been on board with these election conspiracy theories from the beginning. And there's been more and more kind of coming out about his role in the whole January 6 attack on our country. And so no, this was certainly not surprising.
COOPER: I should point out CNN caught up with the Congressman today to ask him about this. You will not answer our questions. The Committee played a new video from when a Jacob Chansley the so-called QAnon shaman, illegally entered the Arizona State Capitol building. The Committee wanted to show that some of the people who were later charged with participating the riot in DC in the insurrection were also tied to prior incidents at state capitals across the country. Were you aware this character had showed up with this mob?
HOBBS: I mean, he's shown up with mobs at the Capitol many times. And so, you know, it wasn't surprising. I don't know, specifically, the incident that you're referring to from the video of earlier today. But I know that the cast of characters that were involved from Arizona, at the Capitol instruction also were involved in rallies and protests here in Arizona many times.
COOPER: Secretary of State Katie Hobbs, appreciate your time. Thank you.
TAPPER: Hey, a lot to discuss. Joining me in the panel, CNN senior political correspondent Abby Phillip, also CNN special correspondent Jamie Gangel, CNN chief national affairs analyst Kasie Hunt, and CNN chief national correspondent John King.
All right, we're out of time, I gave all their title. So, now --no I'm just joking.
So, one thing I want to run again, because it was really amazing was a Senator Ron Johnson's response to Manu Raju asking why his staff member was reaching out to the staff of Vice President Pence with these fraudulent electors from his home state of Wisconsin and Michigan. Let's roll some of that sound.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RAJU (on-camera): Why was even asking for that?
REP. RON JOHNSON (R-WI): Because somebody delivered this to our office and asked to go to that the Vice President.
RAJU (on-camera): Did you support the -- his efforts to try to get those slides to the Vice President?
JOHNSON: No. I had no knowledge of this.
[20:35:00]
RAJU (on-camera): Who's the person --
JOHNSON: But I don't know -- you know, I had no involvement in an open slate of electors. I had no idea that singing be delivered to us, got delivered staff to staff, my chief staff do the right thing. Contact Vice President's staff, they said didn't want it. So we didn't deliver.
RAJU (on-camera): Who's the --
JOHNSON: That's the end of story.
RAJU (on-camera): Who's the person that delivered it to your office?
JOHNSON: I have no idea.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: I can understand why he would give that answer because, at least according to Carrie Cordero earlier today, this might actually be illegal to give fraudulent electors. But that was the worst explanation I've ever heard. I mean, that was like something like a local newscast, a guy that was caught not (INAUDIBLE).
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: He didn't want it. So we didn't get it. I mean, what I thought was so honestly, wild about that text exchange, was that the staffer who by the way, is now Ron Johnson's Chief of Staff, basically was, was implying that, oh, these electors just didn't get to the archivist. That was a lie. I mean, these electors were fake electors. And not only that, he said that Ron Johnson himself was the one who wanted to hand it over to Pence himself.
So, there are there are a lot of problems with this. And I don't think that that explanation obviously cuts it. But also, I mean, Ron Johnson saying, oh, my staffer did the right thing. His staffer did exactly the wrong thing, lied to another person about the nature of these electors and tried to give them to the Vice President on the day of January 6.
TAPPER: But also just to get -- just to dive back into what you said.
JAMIE GANGEL, CNN SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT: Right.
TAPPER: Beyond the morality issue, which is an important one, which is --
(CROSSTALK)
TAPPER: Well, I just want to like unpack it here. Because what he is saying is, we got this package, we don't know who gave it to us, it had electors in it. And they said we should give it to the Vice President. So we reached out to give it to the Vice President. I mean, what if it was like racing [ph]? I mean, you have no idea what's in this package. And just some random gave it to you. I -- it's.
PHILLIP: I mean, that's assuming that any of that is true, which seems highly unlikely. I mean, he knew what it was.
GANGEL: I think what we learned today, over and over again, is that democracy depends on men and women of goodwill, who are not going to deliver or want to deliver false electors. But what was most impressive to me today was the people we heard from our Trump supporters, they are conservative Republicans, many of whom voted for him twice. And they over and over and over again, honestly, unlike perhaps that walking interview we just saw with Manu said that there was no fraud. And just two quotes, from one from Rudy Giulliani, what did Rudy Giulliani say? Aren't we all Republicans here?
TAPPER: Right.
GANGEL: And then John Eastman, just do it and have the courts sorted out. Luckily, there were people like Gabriel Sterling on the other side, who said, there were no secret suitcases with magical ballots.
TAPPER: So Congressman Adam Kinzinger, Republican, he's on the Committee, veteran Air Force veteran, wrote watching today's witnesses, I'm reminded what honorable people look like. The first three reminded me of the GOP, I joined Shayne Moss and her mother, I mean, America at its best. Republican Leader McCarthy probably feels a shame today.
KASIE HUNT, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Look, I think that it's clear Kinzinger, Liz Cheney, and all these Republicans that they brought with in front of this Committee today, who we saw, they were the ones who stood in the breach. Without them, I mean, who knows what might have happened. And, you know, we've talked about how this could have so it's so many different points, could have easily gone the other way. And I think the Committee has been illuminating new and more creative ways. It could have gone the wrong way. I mean, starting in Senator Ron Johnson's office.
And by the way, props to the Pence staffer who wrote back in that remarkable text message, don't do that.
TAPPER: It actually seems like the Pence --
HUNT: We don't want them.
TAPPER: -- the Pence staff has more honor than lots of elected officials in this town.
John, I wanted to get your response to an exchange between the Arizona Republican Speaker of the House. Again, this guy is super conservative, and was a big Trump supporter and exchange between him and Congressman Adam Schiff.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. ADAM SCHIFF (D-CA): At some point, did one of them make a comment that they didn't have evidence, but they had a lot of theories.
RUSTY BOWERS (R-AZ) STATE HOUSE SPEAKER: That was Mr. Giulliani.
SCHIFF: And what exactly did he say and how that came up?
BOWERS: My recollection, he said, we've got lots of theories. We just don't have the evidence. And I don't know if that was a gaffe. Or maybe he didn't think through what he said. But both myself and others in my group, the three and my group and my counsel, both remember that specifically and afterwards we kind of laughed about it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[20:40:02]
TAPPER: It's a gap in the Michael Kinsey definition of a gaffe when a politician accidentally tells the truth.
JOHN KING, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Right. And they see in the speaker says they laughed about it. Remember this was before January 6, he thought this was a parody is what he called it at one point, because that was before January 6, then we saw on January 6, the impact, the potential impact of this cancer in the system, and the propensity, what you heard today, repeatedly from all these witnesses, I wouldn't do what Donald Trump do, and I was threatened, I was harassed. My work was made more difficult. My family was threatened, my children were threatened. It's not funny. Now, it's not funny.
When you listen to these things in a vacuum, especially when its Mayor Giulliani involved, yes, it's easy to laugh, and sometimes we need humor. But when you think about the gravity of this, the President of the United States searching for people to help them, searching for a gang to help him, steal the country, not steal your car, steal the country, and when one lawyer said no, he found another one when the Justice Department said no, he went for another one. When Georgia said no, he looked for Arizona, when Arizona said no, he looked to Michigan, this was just a continuing. But the violence and the threats being part of it, it makes it all the worse because that continues. You see behavior today, today from Republicans threatening people.
TAPPER: Yes, more to discuss with all of you a little later on, please stick around.
Coming up next, the pressure campaign was only the start how election officials and workers told the Committee they were targeted for harassment with death threats and more. A former Trump White House official joins me with his own experiences after standing up for the truth. That's next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:45:10]
TAPPER: We learned from the Republican election officials who testified today and from that former Georgia election worker that the efforts to overturn the election came alongside a campaign of fear tactics, death threats, doxing, picketers outside their homes, invented sick claims of pedophilia, and even a home breaking.
We're going to talk about that testimony in one second with our guest. Is he with us now? OK. We're having problems with him. He is Chris Krebs, was the Trump administration official in charge of cybersecurity, we're waiting to see if he pops up on the screen. He was fired after he said the 2020 election was the most secure in history.
And Chris Krebs joins us now.
Chris, we learned more about the threats of violence. We don't have as -- OK, we're going to skip. I'm going to toss to Anderson. We'll bring Chris Krebs in a second.
COOPER: Live TV, it's really joyful sometimes. With me now to talk more about the threats and the fears of violence. Catherine -- Kathleen Belew, she's the author of Bring The War Home, The White Power Movement, And Paramilitary America. She's an incoming Associate Professor of History at Northwestern University.
Kathleen, you've been focused on this for a long time. I'm wondering what you make of this moment that we're in, in which turning to political violence, making threats. It's not just becoming normalized, it is normalized you have, you know, this disgraced politician (INAUDIBLE), making an ad, talking about hunting rhinos, Republicans in name only. Have used in all the years, you've been researching this. Have you seen anything like this moment were you?
KATHLEEN BELEW, AUTHOR: You know, it struck me today listening to Shaye Moss's testimony to the Commission about her experience of being harassed and intimidated. And one threatening message she had gotten was lucky if this is 2020 instead of 1920. I mean, as a historian, this is a lot like 1920. We have intense nationalism, we have intense and peril militarization that's running throughout our culture. And we also have a culture of racial violence that's becoming more of a tide than a set of isolated incidents.
I mean, a lot of the testimony today had to do with how January 6 is not the beginning point of this violence. Nor is that the endpoint of racial violence as we see. And I think I would just add that, in addition to thinking about the way that electoral workers were harassed in 2020, we should all think about the way that white power activists have also been harassing people like Michigan Governor Gretchen Whitmer, harassing businesses for masking, harassing others harassing people at state houses. And we should consider how on January 6 multiple state houses were also sort of in the crosshairs of action.
COOPER: You've said that extremists involved in January 6 have a different understanding of what truth is. Can you expand on that a bit? Because, I mean, there's truth and lies.
BELEW: Yes, absolutely. And it might be good to think too, about the role of conspiracy theory here. Because a lot of what we heard in the testimony was not only about death threats, and I don't mean to say that death threats are minor in any way. But it also had the shape of some specifically conspiratorial worldviews, including things like accusations of pedophilia, which we see often in QAnon movement, materials, and including sort of some more organized forms of intimidation and harassment. So that should draw our attention to two different problems. One is what the commission was doing today, which is sort of what is the role of our political officials in instigating campaigns of harassment against our civil servants who are just trying to carry out votes.
And then the other part is about who the people are, who are in fact, doing the harassing. And I think we haven't begun to hear that side of the story yet. But some of them are simply people who get fixated for whatever reason. Some of them are organized extremist groups, who are simply looking for a direction for your targeted campaigns of violence.
COOPER: Kathleen Belew, I appreciate your time tonight. Thank you very much.
BELEW: Thank you.
TAPPER: Again, with Chris Krebs, who saw firsthand the threats and intimidation that Kathleen Belew was just talking about. He was the Trump administration official in charge of cybersecurity. He was let go after saying the factual, accurate truth that the 2020 election was the most secure in history.
Chris joins us now. Chris, can you hear me? You're doing OK there?
CHRISTOPHER KREBS, FMR TOP CYBERSECURITY OFFICIAL AT DHS: Yes, loud and clear, Jake.
TAPPER: OK, great. So Chris, we learned a lot more about the threats of violence. Some of these election officials faced in the terrible intimidation suffered by an election worker and her family. I know that you had threats I remember a lawyer Joe diGenova saying something pretty heinous to you, that was so heinous in fact that he under threat of lawsuit, he actually apologized and retracted it. What was your takeaway from their testimony about that?
[20:50:24]
KREBS: Well, it built up today throughout the hearing started with Rusty Bowers talking about his experience threats he received. And then you had Gabe Sterling talk about the threats to his employees. And then you also had Brad Raffensperger talk about the threats he received, his wife received, his daughter received his widow daughter received. And then of course, closing out with Shaye Moss and Ruby Freeman, and it was just a personal tragedy to hear, you know, their experiences, their lives are irrevocably changed.
They -- you know, she can't go out and person, you know, to the store, she can't use her name ordering food. It is the -- one of the greatest tragedies of the last couple years in the 2020. You know, the efforts to overturn the election, that, that we have these threats against election workers. And she talked about just wanting to help older voters vote. Like what's more American than that, and for that she's been punished, and she'll carry that burden with it for the rest of her life.
TAPPER: You say that the people behind this all should be held accountable, that an insurrection without consequences is just a trial run. Tell us more about what you mean by that?
KREBS: Yes. Well, look, if those that were responsible for the threats, that were responsible for the attempts to overturn through fake electors, and those slates are not held accountable, they may try to do it again. And we're seeing an empowered part of the Republican Party right now that are candidates for office actually call out Rusty Bowers for being a traitor. You know, we have a candidate for office in Arizona, and we're seeing secretaries of state, we're seeing governors are candidates for governor and Secretary of State that are rioting the big lie in the 2020 election stolen election.
So you know, the permission structure has not shifted back to back to center and some degree of normalcy instead, the incentive structures are in place to continue the lies. And my biggest fear is that or one of my greatest fears, at least is that there won't be Ruby Freeman's and Shaye Moss' in '22 and '24. There will not be election workers. And that in and of itself is a form of voter suppression. Fewer workers, fewer polls, fewer polls, fewer opportunities to vote.
TAPPER: You were fired by presidential tweet, because you stood up to the President's -- former president's lies about widespread voter fraud. You were the top cybersecurity official Homeland Security. Do you think the point by point refutation, of specific claims of fraud during all of these hearings will resonate with any of the people who believe the lies or is it just too late, they just they bought it and they're all in?
KREBS: Well, I think the most important part is that we're putting this all in a comprehensive record. And by the way, Brad Raffensperger today ticking off data and metrics of the claims that dead voters and underage voters was just masterful. And then you had Gabe Sterling do kind of the play by play commentary of that whole farcical suitcase of ballots under the table. So it's excellent job of picking witnesses and the witnesses did a fantastic job.
But again, this goes to the importance of putting the foundation of the facts of what actually happened. And what happens afterwards with law enforcement other investigations, as they may look to conspiracy or fraud or whatever cases, that's critical.
But to your question, look, is this going to change many people's minds? I don't know. It's if the viewers of OAN and Newsmax they're not watching this. They're the ones that need to see what happened and what their false idol tried to protect, you know, put on the American people. But, you know, it is critical to get it out there, get the message out there. And then what happens next is, is in the hands of law enforcement.
TAPPER: All right, Chris Krebs, always good to have you. Thanks so much.
COOPER: (INAUDIBLE) now is CNN political commentator, David Urban, former campaign strategist for the former president. He's a political consultant and Washington corporate lobbyists. Back with us as well Laura Coates, Gloria Borger and Alyssa Farah Griffin.
David, haven't heard from you today. What do you make of the testimony?
DAVID URBAN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Look, so (INUADIBLE) with that Chris and Jake were just talking about, it's compelling testimony, but the people who need to hear this aren't tuned in. Right. That the folks who truly believe this, who truly believe the election was stolen. There's not watching.
And so, you know, they turn on the television they'll see Adam Schiff impeachment manager and they'll click right by. So I think if the Democrats want to appeal to a broader base you don't have Adam Schiff like, you know, enemy number one of the Trump administration in the Maga crowd is your is your presenter. Right? It's not very -- it doesn't help your make your argument. Right. It's going to win anybody over (INAUDIBLE).
[20:55:16]
COOPER: Right. But we have heard. I mean, from one Republican after another.
URBAN: I understand all this.
COOPER: I hear what you're saying.
URBAN: But you know, how many people watch television with the volume off and they turn it up when they hear something (INAUDIBLE).
COOPER: But from -- I'm just wondering about the actual testimony you heard --
URBAN: It's credible. Right. I mean, the Rudy part, right. I've got lots of theories, just no evidence, right. That's that sums up the day. Right? I mean, that's something that you don't have to listen to (INAUDIBLE) --
GLORIA BORGER, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL ANALYST: That sounds like the stolen election.
URBAN: Well (INAUDIBLE) he was a very respected election lawyer, you know, going back and forth saying is, do we have any actual evidence here on these and these and these documents, these e-mails, right. So.
COOPER: Laura, I want to play a piece of sound from the hearing to the former president lashing out at former election worker Ruby Freeman. Let's watch.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP (R) FMR PRESIDENT OF UNITED STATES: We had at least 18,000, that's on tape, we had him counted very painstakingly, 18,000 voters having to do with Ruby Freeman, that's -- she's a vote scammer, a professional vote scammer, and hustler.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
COOPER: Again, I've still find it stunning, the president of United States is reaching out selecting a person who's doing a very important job and calling her a professional scammer without any. I mean, there's that's, that's just completely made up and a hustler.
LAURA COATES, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: It is. And remember, he amplified this to such an extent that it was believed by millions of people potentially, that she was in danger based on people's belief that she had done something wrong. And what did she done, she followed the law of the land to try to make sure that there was actually ability to have democracy not be a spectator sport. We talked what he will not listen, because I mean, earlier on my radio show today, I had so many callers who called in with that very notion. And they said, maybe I listen, if they allowed Devil's advocates to be a part of this hearing.
If I could hear similar to a criminal prosecution, if the prosecutor had to provide exculpatory evidence saying, hey, listen, here's why they maybe did not do this, I might tune in. Right. I push back to suggest, well, hold on a second, there was the opportunity to testify if you'd like to come and testify you very well could, get other people who were asked to be a part of it. They said they didn't want to be a part for whatever reason. So it's kind of a convenient notion to say, well, you know, what, if I only had the other side of the story, you had his position?
BORGER: Can I just say, I think that this will make a difference. And it's because 58% -- this recent poll, 58% of people in this country now believe that Donald Trump probably did something really bad, and it was wrong. Now, it may not affect candidates in 2022. But if he runs in 2024, this is going to be there. And people are going to say do I want him back in the White House? I mean, I don't know all the details of this. But there was some pretty awful stuff that was out there. People were treated really badly, the president lied. So what about, you know, doesn't want that matter?
COOPER: Alyssa, how would the former president even have learned Ruby Freeman's name or Shaye Moss' name?
ALYSSA FARAH GRIFFIN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I was thinking that as the testimony was going on, I mean, in my time in the White House working under Trump, which was only for about eight months, I was shocked by information that would get in front of him. He had people who would monitor social media accounts, they'd see fringe conspiracy theories, and they put them in front of him. And in any traditional White House that should not work like that. It should go through a process.
COOPER: Well, barely Ron Johnson --
(CROSSTALK)
URBAN: Chief of Staff.
GRIFFIN: Well, no, and there's a lot of accountability that broke down at the end there. But again, this I think the point that Chris Krebs made was great. This was a trial run for what can happen in the future. So, I'm not so worried about the next January 6, at the Capitol, we'll arm the Capitol, we'll make sure that we have the proper security. It's every state capitol where Secretaries of State are being threatened where you have, you know, like Michigan, where you have armed militias that are rising up, this is something that the public has to pay attention to.
COOPER: Well it's also people actually running for those positions with an agenda in mind?
GRIFFIN: That are -- yes. That are not the good citizens we saw today who put the country in who put their state ahead of their own personal views. All Republicans by the way.
BORGER: So more than 100 court in the Washington Post, more than 100 Republican primary winners are election deniers.
COOPER: Thanks to all. Stay with us.
Coming up, the most unforgettable moment from today's testimony, plus the Select Committee member joins us live. Tom Friedman will also be here with his reaction as well. And we'll look at where things stand in the Justice Department's investigation. That and more as we continue this next hour.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
