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Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees
DOJ Subpoenas 30-Plus Associates In January 6th Probe; DOJ Open To One Of Trump's Proposed Candidates To Oversee Review Of Mar-A-Lago Classified Documents; Ukraine Reports Huge Swaths Of Territory Reclaimed In The East; Queen's Coffin Lying At Rest Overnight In Scottish Cathedral; New Book On Trump Ally Rudy Giuliani; Camilla Takes On Role Of Queen Consort; "All There Is With Anderson Cooper" Podcast Premieres Sept. 14. Aired 8-9p ET
Aired September 12, 2022 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: I mean, just look at that picture. It's glorious. It seems like a painting.
Because until now, the only image we had of the Orion Nebula was taken by Hubble. I mean beautiful, too. But I mean, it's like someone just, you know, put glasses on you. It's amazing. The Hubble was just unable to see through those layers of stardust.
But using infrared light, the web can see through those layers. Webb also picking up what's being called a bonus image of the Nebula and look at that one, almost from the side.
Thanks so much for joining us. AC 360 starts now.
JOHN BERMAN, CNN HOST: If you're looking for evidence, the Justice Department's January 6 investigation has been heating up, time for some oven mitts.
John Berman here, in for Anderson.
CNN has just learned the DOJ has subpoenaed more than 30 people in recent days, including some very big names in the former President's orbit. And that's not the only new development tonight.
There is also a big one in the fight over documents seized from Mar-a- Lago.
CNN's Sara Murray joins us now with the very latest. Sara, what are you learning about these new subpoenas?
SARA MURRAY, CNN POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, John, me and a wide range of my colleagues have been working on this story all day and we have learned that the Justice Department has subpoenaed more than 30 people, people in the former president's orbit.
They are people like Bill Stepien, Donald Trump's former campaign manager; people like Dan Scavino, Trump's former Deputy Chief of Staff; and then Brian Jack, the former White House political director. You know, we're learning that these are pretty wide-ranging subpoenas.
They are seeking things that have to do with the Save America PAC, Donald Trump's fundraising and political vehicle, you know, information related to the fake electoral spot. Any information folks may have already handed over to the January 6 Committee, and a number of them are seeking documents, some are also seeking documents and testimony.
Now, we also learned in "The New York Times" tonight that investigators appear to have gone another step further with some witnesses, including Boris Epshteyn and Mike Roman. "The New York Times" reporting that both of those men had their phones seized. CNN has not independently confirmed this.
But you know, it's a sign that the Justice Department's investigation is intensifying, particularly as they are about to head into that quiet period ahead of the midterm elections -- John.
BERMAN: Yes, certainly widening.
Separately, Sara, what can you tell us about the back and forth between the former President's legal team and the Justice Department having to deal with the FBI's search at Mar-a-Lago?
MURRAY: So, we know that there is this continuing fight, right, over the Special Master, who might be named to oversee thousands of documents that the FBI seized from Mar-a-Lago.
We learned earlier today that the Trump team, in a Court filing basically said, we do not like either of the Justice Department's candidates for this job. They did not offer an explanation as to why. They didn't like any of the candidates the DOJ put forward.
And we're learning in a filing tonight that the Justice Department is trying to, I guess, offer some sort of an olive branch perhaps. They said they are open to one of the candidates the former Trump team put forward. This is a retired Judge, someone they say, believes has the experience, the relevant experience with these kinds of documents and these kinds of issues to potentially oversee that.
And now, this is going to go to the Judge, John. We're going to wait to see what she says about these Special Master candidates, as well as the government's previous request that they exclude 100 classified documents from this Special Master review.
BERMAN: All right, Sara Murray, on top of this. A lot of new developments and we will have more as the week progresses.
Perspective now from George Conway, conservative lawyer and "Washington Post" contributing columnist and John Yoo who served as Deputy Assistant Attorney General during the George W. Bush administration. He currently teaches law at UC Berkeley.
And George, I just want to start with the news we began with tonight. The idea that the Justice Department is taking the step of subpoenaing more than 30 people in the former President's orbit. What does that tell you about their investigation?
GEORGE CONWAY, CONSERVATIVE ATTORNEY: I think it tells us exactly what Judge Garland said he was going to do way back on the first anniversary of January 6, which was that he was going to follow the facts and the law wherever it might lead, and he was going to -- they were going to do what they do in a lot of a large criminal investigations as they work their way up to the top of the pyramid.
And it had been a massive amount of work that they've been doing since January 6 in prosecuting the people who were actually on the ground at the Capitol, hundreds and hundreds of people who were there and it is also a massive job, though, to follow up and go higher and that's what they're doing now.
They're reaching that stage of the investigation, exactly as Judge Garland said they would.
BERMAN: They are clearly very busy.
John -- George, I should say. I also want to ask you a little bit more about this back and forth between the Justice Department and former President Trump's lawyer having to do with the search of Mar-a-Lago.
There are some legal arguments being made by Trump's lawyers, and one of them is that the Justice Department hasn't proven that the documents seized are in fact classified. What do you make of that argument?
CONWAY: Again, it's a function of this fallacious concept that the President of the United States cannot somehow act like Carnac the Magnificent and hold documents to his head and declassify them.
There is no evidence that these documents have been declassified, and it doesn't matter anyway, because the statutes that were invoked to support the search warrant don't require classification and the subpoena where they produced documents and failed to produce them all back in the summer requires the production of all documents with classification markings, whether or not they are in fact, have remained classified.
So, I mean, it is a complete irrelevancy and it is based upon a fallacious presumption.
BERMAN: And John, what about the fact that within that argument, Trump's lawyers never actually assert that Trump declassified the documents? What do you make of that?
JOHN YOO, FORMER DEPUTY ASSISTANT ATTORNEY GENERAL DURING THE GEORGE W. BUSH ADMINISTRATION: I think actually, both sets of papers are trying to reach some kind of compromise. By papers, I mean, both the Justice Department and the Trump administration.
You saw the news that the Trump -- I'm sorry, that the Justice Department has agreed to one of the Special Masters and is only seeking an exception from the Special Master order for about the 100 or so classified documents they have recovered.
They're actually agreeing to stop the use of all the other non- classified documents in their criminal investigation. That's an interesting olive branch from the Justice Department.
On the Trump side, I would also say there's an olive branch there, too. They are not making in Court, and they're not repeating in Court the claims that President Trump and some of his allies are making, that perhaps President Trump declassified these documents, it certainly doesn't seem so. You look at the facts that had been recounted in the Court papers, it doesn't sound like President Trump or his aides acted like these documents had been declassified.
So, I think both sides are trying to dial down the heat here and trying to maybe reach some kind of compromise.
BERMAN: Well, from the Trump side, one possible reason why you don't put it in a Court document that Trump declassified them is, if it turns out not to be true, that there's a sanction with that, there's something that could come back to bite you there.
Another argument, John, I just want your take on is the Trump side is saying that he has an absolute right of access to presidential records here whether they're classified or not. Does that matter?
YOO: I am not really persuaded by that argument in the papers, because this is not a question about access to the papers, it's the question about who is the repository of the papers? So, I think President Trump is right, past Presidents want to have access to their papers to write their memoirs, but that doesn't really answer the question of who holds them?
Traditionally, you know, the Archives will hold them in the Presidential Library, hold them, then they'll give a copy to the President so that he or she can access them.
BERMAN: Yes. I mean, there is no right, as far as any of us know, to keep them in your house. You have access to them when they are under the safety and control of the Archives.
So, George, now that the Justice Department has said that one of the former President's choices for a Special Master, we're talking about Judge Raymond Dearie is appropriate. Does that make Judge Dearie that the odds on favor to get picked here, how could this play out?
CONWAY: Well, I mean, the Judge clearly has the discretion to pick whoever she wants. I think it would make sense to pick Judge Dearie at this point. I don't think it was so much of an olive branch that the Justice Department was extending by acknowledging Judge Dearie's acceptability.
Judge Dearie is a well-respected Judge in the New York area in the Eastern District of New York in Brooklyn. He's been a well-respected judge for decades and he served on the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court, the Court that handles FISA applications. And so he is fully qualified to review classified information and to handle classified information. So he is actually, he was a good choice, and I think the only reason why the Justice Department probably didn't agree to it immediately the other night is because the Trump people floated the name six hours before the filing deadline, and they had to run out up a flagpole at the Department of Justice.
BERMAN: So John, there are some serious issues still to be worked out or determined when it comes to the Special Master. What do you see as the big ones here?
YOO: You're exactly right, John. There are still a lot of issues to be resolved. I think one of the most important legal issues is the one that we've talked about on the show before, does President Trump as the former President have any kind of executive privilege, the right to keep secret documents and communications between the President and his or her top aides from the incumbent President?
This is an issue which the Supreme Court flagged earlier this year when it overrode Trump's claim of executive privilege against the January 6 Committee. It's an issue that the Supreme Court itself also flagged back in the Nixon case in the 1970s. That is the governing law for the issues we're talking about. I'm not sure Trump wins on that issue. I would bet he doesn't.
I still tend to think the incumbent President decides whether there is executive privilege or not, because there's only one President at a time. And in this case, the President is carrying out his or her duties to execute the laws, you know, the law of prosecutions.
But Trump can delay things several weeks, if not months by trying to raise that issue and drive it all the way to the Supreme Court.
BERMAN: Just George, very quickly. The timeline here and we don't know exactly what Judge Cannon is going to say, but if she doesn't do something that satisfies the Justice Department and they then appeal all of this, how long will this play out?
CONWAY: It's hard to say. I mean, it could be resolved on stay applications, which can be done very quickly, or it might require full appeals. I would hope that they could be able to stay the portion of the order that they are seeking to stay which is this, the restriction on their ability to use the classified documents for the purposes of their investigation, because there is really no basis to separate what the Judge is allowing, which is the use of the information for counterintelligence purposes and the classified information investigation for the criminal purposes.
BERMAN: Well, we could learn if the Judge grants that stay within the next few days.
George Conway, John Yoo, great to have you both on tonight. Thank you very much.
YOO: Thanks, John. BERMAN: We're going to have the very latest on Ukraine's stunning
route of Russian forces and whether it signals a turning point in the war there.
And later, with the procession, pomp and pipes, Scotland mourns Queen Elizabeth II.
BERMAN: First, gradually, then suddenly, what Ernest Hemingway wrote about going bankrupt might -- might also apply to military defeat. At least that's how it appears tonight in newly liberated portions of Ukraine.
For weeks, Ukrainian troops had been slowly, gradually chipping away at Russian positions in Southern and Eastern Ukraine and starting just last week and accelerating over the weekend, gradually became suddenly, a Ukrainian push outward from Kharkiv turned to shove.
Look at the time lapse here, starting September 3rd with yellow marking progress toward the Russian border to the north, and the strategic City of Izyum to the southeast, Ukraine reclaimed more territory in just a few days than Russia took in months.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT (through translator): From the beginning of September until today, our soldiers have already liberated more than 6,000 square kilometers of the territory of Ukraine, in the east and south, the movement of our troops continues.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BERMAN: So, whether this amounts to a turning point in the wider war is by no means certain. That said a senior American military official tells us this remarkable shift in the battlefield picture signals, "low morale, logistics issues, inability to sustain operations on the part of Russian forces."
We're going to talk about the implications in a moment. First, though, more on the counter offensive itself. And CNN's Matthew Chance.
MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice over): "We are one people with Russia," read this Kremlin propaganda poster. No one is reading it anymore.
As Ukrainian forces tear it down, the words of a celebrated Ukrainian poet, revealed thinly papered over.
(UNIDENTIFIED MALE speaking in foreign language.)
CHANCE (voice over): "Fight, and you will win," he writes. It is one poignant moment in a stunning weekend of dramatic Ukrainian gains.
In towns and villages across vast swathes of this war-ravaged country's Kharkiv region, Ukrainian troops are being greeted as liberators.
(UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AND MALE speaking in foreign language.)
CHANCE (voice over): The months these people have lived under Russian guns.
(UNIDENTIFIED MALES speaking in foreign language.)
CHANCE (voice over): Now, it's Ukrainian guns celebrating the recapture of strategic towns like Izyum, once a key supply point for Russian troops.
(UNIDENTIFIED MALE speaking in foreign language.)
CHANCE (voice over): Troops who appear to have been righted. With equipment destroyed or just abandoned in the face of a lightning Ukrainian offensive, heavy armor, ammunition even food and clothes left behind as Ukrainian Commanders say their Russian enemy simply turned and ran, a powerful humiliating blow for the Kremlin and its military.
(UNIDENTIFIED MALE speaking in foreign language.)
CHANCE (voice over): But Russian officials are putting on a very different spin.
(UNIDENTIFIED MALE speaking in foreign language.)
CHANCE (voice over): In order to achieve the goals of the special military operation as they still call it, a decision was made to regroup Russian troops, says this Defense Ministry spokesman. It's an orderly withdrawal, he suggests, not the chaotic route it seems.
But even on pro-Kremlin television, the once triumphant mood seems to have shifted towards reality and the blame game is now in full swing.
(UNIDENTIFIED MALES speaking in foreign language.)
CHANCE (voice over): "People who convinced Putin this special operation would be fast and effective really set us up," complains this pundit. "Someone must have told him Ukrainians would surrender," he says.
"Six months ago, did anyone really believe they would be surrendering town," asked another, 'And trying to repel a counter offensive in Kharkiv?"
"This is a serious army and their weapons are serious, too," admits a third amid heated exchanges.
(UNIDENTIFIED MALES speaking in foreign language.) CHANCE (voice over): Ukraine's dramatic advance seems to have
genuinely shocked Russia, and that makes its leader who oversaw Moscow Anniversary celebrations at the weekend even more unpredictable and potentially dangerous.
Already Russian hardliners are calling for President Putin to act, mobilize troops, and double down in Ukraine, calls he may no longer be able to resist.
Matthew Chance, CNN, London.
BERMAN: So, with that as the backdrop and recognizing the picture is evolving as we speak, let's get some perspective now from CNN's Sam Kiley in Ukraine; also, CNN national security analyst Steve Hall, former Chief of Russia Operations at the CIA, and retired Army Brigadier General Peters Zwack who served as a military attache in Moscow and has written a book about it titled, "Swimming in the Volga: A US Army Officer's Experience in Pre-Putin Russia."
Steve Hall, I want to start with you. You heard Matthew Chance's reporting there and we also learned tonight that deputies at 18 municipal districts of Moscow and St. Petersburg have signed a petition calling for Vladimir Putin's resignation.
In a country is tightly controlled as Russia is, how significant are the signs of dissent?
STEVE HALL, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Well, it is significant, John, in the sense that you've got sort of these lower level politicians, you know, calling for Putin's resignation. You've got some of the chaos that we saw on the state-controlled television just recently also occurring.
These aren't direct threats to Putin, because of course, his ability to use his security services to suppress or repress his citizenry is still amazingly strong. That said, it really is an issue of a tipping point.
In other words, the temperature is definitely going up in Moscow, and how far can it go before people who really are important? These are the people who surround Vladimir Putin start to take notice of this and say, "Hold on a second. Is the entire system that we depend on starting to fray at the edges because of what's going on in Ukraine?" And if that's the case, and they start making that distinction and that determination, then it's going to get really, really serious at the senior most levels of the Russian government, John.
BERMAN: So General Zwack, how do you explain the success of the Ukrainian counterattack, not just the amount of land Ukrainians have taken, but how quickly they've been able to do it?
BRIG. GEN. PETER ZWACK (RET), FORMER US DEFENSE ATTACHE TO RUSSIA: This is, frankly, what we're watching is remarkable, but I caution against euphoria, I think being cautiously optimistic is right. A lot can gone wrong. But what the Ukrainians have done is they have basically -- first of all, can you believe, five months ago, they battled and fought and threw the Russians out from around Kyiv. That in itself was momentous.
Then you have this grinded out fight in Eastern Ukraine, where as ugly as it was, the Ukrainians were able to hang in there and set the circumstances for a counteroffensive where we're seeing now Harkey, and to a lesser extent in the south.
So, there is momentum and initiative, planning, intelligence, equipment coming from in and fundamental will to fight and moxie that the Russian troops, they're kind of done -- they are drawn out. They're tired, and the morale is bad, and they don't believe in their leadership.
So you had a shift in momentum, and it almost as if it just broke in the forces near Kharkiv almost seem to be melting away. And the Russians are going to have a major problem getting that restored, and then of course, there's the big problem that this can spread into the Kremlin and Russia.
But I caution one last thing is that with all of this, I worry a little bit about Ukrainian getting too euphoric over extension, overreach, and then setting oneself up for a repost counterattack.
BERMAN: You know, Sam Kiley, you've been on the ground there. You've been to one of the villages that was liberated in the Ukrainian advance. How are the Ukrainians hoping to capitalize on this? What do you hear on the ground?
SAM KILEY, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, it's been a remarkable counteroffensive with 6,000 kilometers to the north and the south recaptured, most of it in the north. Commanders on the ground talk of having recaptured the whole of Kharkiv Oblast on the ground, and we weren't just in one village, we visited a large number and drove for a couple of hours frankly, into liberated territory, an impossible feat just three days ago, we would have been shocked to ribbons in nanoseconds if we tried that under Russian occupation.
Now, it's possible to drive around, you drive past many destroyed vehicles, but you also pass a huge number of vehicles and I'm talking about tanks on the personnel carriers and big trucks, with the Russian "Z" painted out, recaptured, or captured by the Ukrainians being turned around and put straight into the battle.
On top of that, enormous piles of ammunition have been accrued. They've really been able to turn this route into a resupply operation and that is critical for their mission because you asked me earlier on, how it was possible the Ukrainians have done this, they've done it with a combination of extremely accurate NATO-style weaponry led by donations from the United States, very high precision artillery strikes, which you've seen the evidence of untouched houses around Russian command posts and so on, and then very rapid maneuver completely different set of doctrine really, that they're using. [20:25:13]
They're maneuvering around there. They're surprising and devastating the Russians and they've caught them and caused the collapse of their command and control. They'd probably be able to regroup there on the Donetsk River, that is the main concern of the Ukrainians at the moment.
BERMAN: You know, Steve, one of the things that we heard this from critics of Putin inside Russia, they want a full mobilization of Russian forces there, Steve. Do you think all of this will spur Putin to do a general mobilization?
HALL: You know, it's really hard to say right now, whether he is going to go to that extent, because of course, what that presupposes is, is the downside of a full mobilization would be some sort of political price to pay for Putin inside of Russia, and it is just really hard to judge.
You know, would the Russian people sort of rise up? Would mothers who are sending their boys to the front, would they, you know, would they be a big political issue for him? I'm not -- I'm not so sure that they would, but there are other things as Putin feels himself more painted in a corner that he might turn to.
And we, of course, discussed this in the past. There is tactical nuclear weapons that he could use if he felt things were going poorly enough. There's also biological and chemical weapons that he could use, and that's not to say that we need to be more careful in the West in terms of providing weaponry and assistance to the Ukrainians for fear of that happening. That's not what I'm saying at all.
I'm just saying that if Putin feels himself painted into a corner, he might more seriously contemplate those types of things, anything ranging from a massive call up of all Russians across the country to some of these more weapons of mass destruction. That, of course, would be a whole new very dangerous phase of the war, John.
BERMAN: General Zwack, we have about 30 seconds left here. Do you think Russia is capable of a serious counter move to what Ukraine has been able to do at this point?
ZWACK: Not in the -- not in the immediate conventional sense. Even the reinforcements we heard or call up would be throwing a lot of fairly inexperienced troops at it and getting it again with Steve, what -- how can the Russians turn this in some type of X factor that can really, really get at the Ukrainians because right now, it is all momentum and initiative is on the Ukrainian side.
They've got the Russians in the back heel. The regime -- the Russian regime is in trouble, I believe, and they've got to turn it and this is what worries me because they're being backed into a corner domestically and not internationally, which makes this all very dangerous.
BERMAN: Yes, desperation can be dangerous. Sam Kiley, you and your team stay safe. Steve Hall, General Peter Zwack, thank you very much.
Next, someone who served the late Queen Elizabeth on the funeral arrangements she herself made in the first days of Charles as King.
BERMAN: It is the early overnight hours right now at Edinburgh, Scotland. These are live pictures St. Giles' cathedral remains open and will stay open throughout the night for mourners to pay their respects to Queen Elizabeth II. Her coffin will be flown to London tomorrow.
More on the ceremonies today from CNN's Max Foster.
MAX FOSTER, CNN ROYAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The new king precessing behind his mother's coffin in lockstep with his siblings, along Edinburgh's cobbled Royal Mile. The silence only broken by Royal salutes and gunfire one minute from the city's iconic Castle. Insight St. Giles', members of the royal family and household as well as Scottish politicians and representatives of the military and Scottish civil society pay tribute and remember the Queen's love of Scotland.
REV. CALUM MACLEOD, MINISTER ST. GILES' CATHEDRAL: And so, we gather to bed Scotland's farewell to our late Monarch whose life of service to the nation and the world we celebrate and whose love for Scotland was legendary.
FOSTER (voice-over): The late monarchs casket draped with the Royal Standard of Scotland and the nation's crown that she received here in 1953. A send-off full of Scottish symbolism and her son taking his first steps as Scotland's King.
Just shortly after Charles III meeting Scotland's First Minister Nicola Sturgeon, leader of arguably the most rebellious of his nations. Sturgeon wants to eventually secure another referendum on Scottish independence, challenging the unity of the Kingdom. But in her adjust to the King of the Scottish Parliament, she pledged her loyalty.
NICOLA STURGEON, SCOTISH FIRST MINISTER: Your Majesty, we stand ready to support you as you continue your own life of service. And as you build on the extra ordinary legacy of your beloved Mother, our queen, Queen Elizabeth, Queen of Scots.
FOSTER (voice-over): The encounter with a Scottish leader came after an event at Westminster, where the King and Queen Consort received letters of condolence from both Houses of Parliament. There, Charles III, reiterated his loyalty to Britain's democratic values.
KING CHARLES III, UNITED KINGDOM: Her late majesty pledged herself to serve her country and her people and to maintain the precious principles of constitutional government, which lie at the heart of our nation. This vow she kept with unsurpassed devotion. She set an example of selfless duty, which, with God's help and your counsels, I am resolved faithfully to follow.
FOSTER (voice-over): Monday was Scotland's day to express their condolences. On Tuesday, the King heads to Northern Ireland, and he visits Wales on Friday. a unifying bid before a final farewell to the late Queen at the state funeral on Monday.
BERMAN: And Max Foster is with us now from Buckingham Palace. Max, what more can you tell us about the preparation for the Queen's lying in state of Westminster Hall?
FOSTER: Well, the casket will come be flown from Scotland down to London the tomorrow evening and the casket will rest overnight at Buckingham Palace on Wednesday. There'll be a full ceremonial procession from here to Westminster Hall, and then the casket the Queen will lie in state. We are expecting absolutely huge crowds, the only comparison we really had was 1965. And when Winston Churchill lay in state 320,000 people came to pay their respects then. We're expecting at least double that, if not three times. So, huge preparations underway in London for just to be able to handle that amount of people.
BERMAN: Max Foster, you've been working around the clock. Thank you so much for your work.
Perspective now from Simon Lewis, who served to the Queen's press secretary in the late '90s. Simon, today's service obviously honored the Queen's connection to Scotland. So, what was the nature of her relationship to that country and the people there given all the time she spent at Balmoral?
SIMON LEWIS, FMR PRESS SECRETARY FOR QUEEN ELIZABETH II: I know, her mother, the late Queen mother had very strong Scottish roots. I think the whole family have a feel for Scotland, which is quite profound. I have to say, today, it was entirely clear that that's reciprocated. I think a lot of people weren't sure how the people of Scotland would respond when the (INAUDIBLE) came to Edinburgh. But it was quite extraordinary. The number of people the sense of a great loss, not just to the United Kingdom, but to Scotland.
BERMAN: It was reciprocated love, she felt like she could be herself there and the people of Scotland, they love her for it. This is really just the beginning of the services planned for the coming days, the Queen herself signed off on every detail of these funeral arrangements. You work with her personally for a time. So, what is it you expect to see, what are you watching for?
LEWIS: Well, we know what happens tomorrow, the Queen will be flown back to London, they'll then be a procession here back to Westminster, and the lying in state will begin. And this again will be a quite extraordinary event, I think, because by most estimates, about 750,000 people may come into London between now and the funeral. And if you think back to the last great state funeral, which was Winston Churchill in 1965, admittedly, in a preeminent internet age, there were only 320,000 people who came to see him lines.
And so, I think this is going to be unprecedented. And I think it says a huge amount about the affection for the Queen, but also the fact that as we've seen in Scotland today, the affection and adoration of the Queen goes well beyond any one city or part of the UK.
BERMAN: So, King Charles addressed both Houses of Parliament today for the first time as king, you got to know him while working for the royal family. How do you see him stepping into this new role?
LEWIS: The most important thing is he's been planning for this for most of his life. I mean, he's been the most active and busiest Prince of Wales in history. He's known from very early on that one day he would be king. He's been thinking about it. He's been planning it. He's been working with his advisors, clearly, until the moment comes and it's a sad moment because he's also grieving some no one quite knows what kind of King he's going to be. But I have to say that all the planning, all the preparation, all the hard work clearly is paying off because the King is doing extremely well that every single public speeches made, his televised broadcast his speech today, the walkouts has been spot on.
BERMAN: Well, no one's had a longer apprenticeship, almost for any job that Charles has had for what he is doing now. Look, obviously, a lot of focus on remembering the Queen the past few days, and there will be for days and weeks to come. When is it time to start looking ahead to what the reign of Charles III will be like or is that moment there already?
LEWIS: I think we're beginning to see the shape of it. I thought that speech laid out very clearly his belief in a constitutional monarchy laid out his understanding that he can't do everything, he's going to relinquish some of the things that are dear to his heart. And obviously the new Prince of Wales will take on those responsibilities. But like any sovereign, it's about the events that shaped the world. We don't know what's coming down the track. And the thing about a sovereign or constitutional monarch is that he or she has to be able to speak for the nation and respond to events as well as have a plan for themselves and that if you look back on the Queen's long reign, that was what she was amazingly good at being able to reach the British people are key moments and I think that's exactly what King Charles will do. And he will be very well advised.
BERMAN: Simon Lewis, we thank you so much for your time.
BERMAN: Up next, one-on-one with the author of a new book on Rudy Giuliani and his remarkable transformation from America's mayor to defender of 2020 election lies, and now a focus of the January 6 investigation.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) [20:43:54]
BERMAN: So, we're just weeks away from the midterms and the former president's legal troubles are part of the picture. In the picture with him as you know is Rudy Giuliani. Someone remembered every year about this time for his role of mayor of New York City after the 9/11 attacks. These days. He's at the center of 2020 election investigations in both Georgia and Washington D.C.
My next guest has covered Giuliani and dozens of campaigns for years as a political reporter. He is Andrew Kirtzman, author of the new book Giuliani The Rise And Tragic Fall Of America's Mayor.
And Andrew I just want to start there because it is the question I'm sure you get more than any other which is what happened to Rudy Giuliani? How did it go from September 11, 2001 to January 6 2020?
ANDREW KIRTZMAN, AUTHOR: Right. Well, it was the question that drove this book and you know, did hundreds of interviews, look through the archives and the Giuliani mayoralty, you know, due to kind of forensic look into the Giuliani story. And I think what emerged was a sense of a desperate man, a man who was desperate to achieve power, desperate for phenomenal wealth. And then when it all came crashing down after a disastrous run for the presidency in 2008, he became desperate to recapture his relevance. And in order to do that he had to sell out he is vehicle was Donald Trump, a man who he considered a carnival barker and in the words of one of the aides I spoke with.
And, you know, ever since, from 2016, to the present, what you've seen are just manifestations of Rudy Giuliani's desire to cling to power, regardless of the damage that he would do to the country.
BERMAN: I didn't realize how low the lows were, until I read your book.
BERMAN: And that low, the lowest of lows was after January, after 2008, the election where he was at one point, the front runner and then and lost pretty quickly. And you spoke to Giuliani's third wife, Judith Nathan.
BERMAN: At length. And she described what he was like at that point, she called it almost a clinical depression. She said, Giuliani rarely left the apartment, spending his time sitting listlessly on his in- laws living on a couch, sleeping late in the bedroom, smoking cigars in his bathroom on the terrace facing a parking lot, end quote.
At this point, you right, he basically moved to Mar-a-Lago to try to get right although even in that period when he was living there are right next to it, he was still you, right, literally falling down drunk at times. KIRTZMAN: Yes. Well, I think people don't realize and I didn't realize how deep the relationship between Trump and Giuliani ran even before the presidency and his stay in Mar-a-Lago, which I just learned about in the course of my reporting and speaking to his ex-wife was just an incredible story. And you know, he was just devastated by the loss of power from the implosion of is horribly disastrous presidential race, walked away with just one delegate, as you said, fell into a depression. And she looked for a place to bring him to kind of, you know, recuperate and Donald Trump to the rescue.
Donald Trump houses him in Mar-a-Lago as he, you know, Giuliani is drinking, right, as he is kind of feeling that he's lost his relevance. And, you know, it gave him some time, you know, to avoid the press, the kind of winning in and out of, you know --
BERMAN: That's literally tunnels.
KIRTZMAN: -- (INAUDIBLE) in the tunnels underneath Mar-a-Lago. It was, it was a moment that probably changed the dynamic between Rudy Giuliani and Donald Trump.
BERMAN: Solidified the type of relationship and maybe the power dynamic, they were going to --
KIRTZMAN: Yes, that's right.
BERMAN: -- have the right relationship. I want to end on you talk and have some new reporting again, that I had read about 2020 and January 6, and you tried to explain what Giuliani was doing between the election and January 6. And you write, it wasn't so much that Giuliani was telling Trump something he knew wasn't true, rather, his own survival rested on it being true. Giuliani was 76-year-old, his political and financial future even his escape from prosecution was dependent on Trump's remaining in power.
KIRTZMAN: Right. Well, every single kind of mainstream election lawyer that worked for the Trump 2020 campaign, by that time after the election was trying to convince Trump to throw in the towel trying to convince them he had lost. Meanwhile, there was Rudy Giuliani telling him he had won, telling Trump what he wants to hear. And the reason was that Giuliani was going broke. He was facing the loss of power if Trump left office, he was subject of national ridicule because of the Borat film, the dripping hair dye, all of that his only way of kind of keeping it together was to keep Donald Trump in office by any means necessary and those means were devastating for the country. And may end him in jail.
BERMAN: Well, we will see, we will see what the next chapter of this is. It's your second book already on Rudy Giuliani. Curious if there'll be a third. Andrew Kirtzman it's a terrific read. You've done really, really in-depth work here. Thank you so much for being with us.
KIRTZMAN: Thank you.
BERMAN: Once again, the new book is Giuliani The Rise And Tragic Fall Of America's Mayor.
And still to come, a look at Camilla as she takes her place in history as the new Queen Consort.
BERMAN: It is a new era for the royal family and that includes a new role for the wife of King Charles, Camilla who is now the Queen Consort.
"360's" Randi Kaye took a dive into Camilla's past, her dedication to service, her journey to the royal family and her rise to Queen Consort.
KING CHARLES III: I know she will bring to the demands of her new role, the steadfast devotion to duty, on which I have come to rely so much.
RANDI KAYE, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): King Charles III is talking about his wife Camilla Parker Bowles, the Queen Consort. She first met the future king when they were in their 20s, reportedly at a polo match. Growing up in the English countryside, Camilla had developed a passion for horses. It was the early 1970s and Charles had joined the Royal Navy. In his absence, Camilla married cavalry officer Andrew Parker Bowles, the couple had two children. In 1981, Charles married Diana Spencer, but years later admitted he'd been having an affair.
PRINCES DIANA: There were three of us in this marriage, so it was a bit crowded,
KAYE (voice-over): Both couples divorced and Camilla was vilified by the public. After Diana's death in 1997. The Royal family tried to help Camilla's image, including carefully orchestrated appearances with Charles. In 2005, Charles and Camilla were married in a civil ceremony at Windsor Guildhall. Later that year, despite her fear of flying, Camilla made her first official visit to the United States as the Duchess of Cornwall. Over their 17-year marriage, Camilla has emerged as Charles's greatest confidant and love of his life.
PATRICK HAVERSON, FMR COMMUNICATIONS DIR. FOR PRINCE CHARLES: They love each other. She is a source of great support and comfort and love. They share the same sense of humor. They just blend together beautifully.
KAYE (voice-over): Charles and Camilla have traveled the world together and are often seen joking and laughing.
KING CHARLES III: It's always nice to have somebody who you feel understands and wants to encourage and she said the Pope fell it did they get too serious about it.
KAYE (voice-over): As a royal, Camilla has championed causes such as children's literacy and raising awareness about osteoporosis, a disease that affected both her mother and grandmother. She's also worked to support victims of domestic violence.
CAMILLA, QUEEN CONSORT: Saw all these very brave ladies tell me, it's seeing is believing and hearing is believing.
KAYE (voice-over): At her Jubilee in February this year, the Queen cemented Camilla's future. Announcing when Charles becomes king, Camilla will be known as Queen Consort as she continues her own loyal service. This summer Camilla marked her 75th birthday by guest editing the July issue of the British magazine country life. She chose Kate the Duchess of Cornwall to take her cover photo.
CAMILLA, QUEEN CONSORT: It was all very casual, you know, I was much her (INAUDIBLE).
KAYE (voice-over): And now is Camilla steps into her most important role as Queen Consort, many are thrilled she's taken her place in history.
UNDENTIFIED FEMALE: She is so right for Charles, she's so right. And she's loved around here.
KAYE (voice-over): Randy Kaye, CNN.
BERMAN: And we'll be right back
BERMAN: Anderson has been working on a new podcast that premieres Wednesday, it's called All There Is. He started recording it while packing up his mother's apartment after her passing. It's a podcast about the people we lose, the things they have they leave behind, and how we can all move forward.
Again, the first episode will premiere this Wednesday. You'll find it on Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
The news continues. So, let's hand it over to Laura Coates in "CNN TONIGHT."