Return to Transcripts main page
Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees
Lt. Gov. Fetterman And Dr. Oz Face Off In First And Only Debate In A Race That Could Decide Control Of Senate; Temporary Restraining Order Sought Against Group Linked To Voter Intimidation Allegation In Arizona; DOJ Asks Federal Judge To Force January 6 Testimony From Top Trump White House Lawyers; New CNN Polls Of Battleground States Show Voters' Top Concerns Are The Economy, Inflation; CNN On The Frontlines With A Ukrainian Rocket Artillery Team; Several Business Cut Ties With Kanye West Over Antisemitic Remarks. Aired 8-9p ET
Aired October 25, 2022 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: He was working until the very end. Just last week, he was meeting with people about new weapons systems being transferred to Saudi Arabia that he feared were a risk given Putin's friendship with the Saudi Crown Prince, until the very end fighting for his country.
The former Defense Secretary Ashton Carter was only 68 years old.
Thanks so much for joining us.
AC 360 starts now.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: Good evening.
We have two weeks ago to the 2022 Midterms, the race for control of Congress in key statewide offices across the country is still changing day by day. There is no better example than the contest for Pennsylvania's open Senate seat between Lieutenant Governor John Fetterman and Dr. Mehmet Oz, whose first and only debate just got underway in Harrisburg.
A few hours ago, the Independent challenger, Everett Stern pulled out of the race, threw his support behind Lieutenant Governor Fetterman.
Quoting from his tweet announcing the decision: "I'm polling around three percent, which places democracy at risk." It's not clear what Pennsylvania voters will make of that notion, but it is certainly one more thing for them to consider along with what they see from the two main candidates tonight in a race that could decide control the Senate and perhaps Congress for the next two years.
It is true, as well, that voters nationwide have more factors to weigh than in most midterms, not just the economy or all the other domestic and foreign challenges at the moment, but things never seen before like armed civilians in camouflage and tactical gear lurking at polling places in Arizona. The candidates saying they will only consider the outcome legitimate if they win. We'll have new reporting a bit later on the alleged voter intimidation as well as a conversation with a top Arizona Republican about the threat he sees to democracy.
Also, the latest polling on the issues driving voters. We begin, however, tonight in Pennsylvania. CNN's Jeff Zeleny is in Harrisburg for us.
You've spent a lot of time in Pennsylvania, you know, the candidates and their campaigns well. What do you expect tonight? What should people be looking for?
JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, Anderson, the debate has just gotten underway, as you said, and one of the things first and foremost is John Fetterman, the Lieutenant Governor of Pennsylvania, making the case that he is fit to serve in the Senate. That of course is because he has been recovering from a stroke since May, that he actually suffered days before winning the primary.
He has been building his speech back. He has been building his strength back. But tonight, he'll be referring to questions through closed captioning. So, that is being explained to the audience right now. Why he is able to sort of see the printed questions and Mehmet Oz's answers.
Now, this is something that has been a big issue in this Senate campaign, but I'm told it will not be nearly as much of an issue tonight.
The Oz campaign is trying to move beyond that, I am told, and talk about the differences in issues, particularly crime. Crime has emerged as a central issue in this Senate campaign, as we've seen it and others across the country, but particularly here in Pennsylvania because of Fetterman's role as the Lieutenant Governor on the Board of Pardons.
So I'm told that Mehmet Oz has been studying for weeks, specific cases from the Board of Pardons to talk about at the debate this evening.
On the other hand, the Fetterman campaign is trying to remind voters of Pennsylvania that Mehmet Oz won this primary by attaching himself to Donald Trump. He ran to the far right of his party. Ever since that primary in May, he has been trying to move back to the middle. He's been trying to talk about working with both sides.
So the Fetterman campaign also believes they have an argument against calling him extreme, but Anderson, two weeks from tonight, this race will be settled. It may take some days after that to count all the votes.
But the reason this race is so important is because it is currently held by a retiring Republican Senator, Pat Toomey.
Democrats now believe that they really need this seat as they struggle in other races across the country like Nevada, Arizona, even Georgia; incumbents there are in tough races. So, this race truly has become a critical piece of the puzzle for Democrats trying to hold their majority and Republicans trying to win it -- Anderson.
COOPER: And this Independent candidate dropping out of the race and supporting Fetterman, does that shift things at all?
ZELENY: We'll see. I mean, he was not much of a factor. He was not widely known. He was barely known. In fact, he was not even included in our poll that we did this week.
But look, he is throwing his support behind John Fetterman. So, certainly that that could help Fetterman, but the reality is, his name is already on the ballot. So that could also create some confusion. People could still vote for him if they are turned off by both of these candidates.
Important to point out, a half million Pennsylvania voters, more than that have already cast their ballots and more will do so every single day here. SO the strategist I have been speaking with do not really think this has much of an effect, but in a tight race, which Pennsylvania always has, of course, Anderson.
COOPER: Jeff Zeleny, appreciate it. Thanks.
We are going to get some perspective now from Abby Phillip, CNN senior political correspondent and anchor of "Inside Politics Sunday." Also two CNN political commentators, Pennsylvania Republican Congressman Charlie Dent and David Urban, who served as campaign adviser to the former President. With us as well is CNN medical correspondent, Dr. Tara Narula.
So, Abby, the Fetterman campaign has clearly been trying to lower expectations saying Fetterman is still recovering from a stroke. Last night, Senator Klobuchar told me that he was never the best debater to begin with.
It is not uncommon for campaigns to do this. Do you think voters will hold Fetterman to a different standard given his medical condition?
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT AND ANCHOR OF "INSIDE POLITICS SUNDAY": Well, I think that remains to be seen. Voters in Pennsylvania seem to have been pretty forgiving of this whole situation from the beginning. It's been months now since Fetterman suffered that stroke. He had been off the campaign trail for quite some time, and yet, still came out of that period leading Oz in the polls.
It's just not clear to me how much the race is turning on the issue of Fetterman's health, his recovery or if it is turning on some of the other fundamentals, the economy and crime and the Fetterman campaign right now needs to find a way to reach Independent voters who are at the moment, according to our polling, at least, leaning toward Oz, and that's likely not related to his health, it likely has much more to do with some of the bigger picture struggles that Democrats are facing, which is rising inflation, and a lot of attack ads, especially in the State of Pennsylvania on the issue of crime. COOPER: Dr. Narula, what do we know about the cause of Fetterman's stroke? And any warning signs he experienced beforehand, right? And frankly, just the -- I mean is his brain -- how is his brain affected by it?
DR. TARA NARULA, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: So to be clear, Anderson, I don't treat him nor do I have access to his medical record. So let's talk about what we know based on what his doctors have said and what he has said, which is that back in 2017, he was diagnosed with atrial fibrillation, this is an irregular heart rhythm that we know carries a risk of stroke.
He was actually not on blood thinning medications for many of those last years, which could have protected him from stroke, unfortunately, he suffered a stroke in May, was taken to the hospital where he underwent a thrombectomy. This is where they actually removed the clot from the blood vessel in the brain. It's an interventional procedure.
We usually do this in the setting of large vessels that are blocked by clots or in the setting of an area of the brain, a large area that is at risk territory, so he spent nine days in the hospital. During that time, they also implanted a defibrillator device, which is something that we use for patients who either have reduced heart function, or another type of arrhythmia, and in fact, his cardiologist recently revealed as well, that he also has a cardiomyopathy, which is in fact, a weakened heart muscle function. We don't know how reduce that heart function is.
As far as you know what area of the brain, we don't know, right or left hemisphere. We do know that typically, language is in the left hemisphere, and for most people, and really what it appears he has is an aphasia, which is really a difficulty understanding or speaking, it is a difficulty with language.
And to be clear, Anderson, this does not have an effect necessarily on cognition. So the area of the brain that's supplied by that blood vessel, that's the area that's affected. So, if it's the motor area, that's where you lose function. If it's the speech area, that's where you have trouble. But that's totally separate from your ability to think, process data, understand or your intelligence. So, I want to be clear about that.
COOPER: And, David, I know you've been talking with Dr. Oz over the course of the campaign as recently as last night. What have you told him what you think he should do tonight? Or what would you tell us you told him?
DAVID URBAN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes, Anderson, you know, as Abby said, I don't think this is going to turn so much on John Fetterman's health. Voters, I think are more concerned about John Fetterman positions.
And, you know, my advice to Dr. Oz was, you know, be compassionate. Stick to the issues, talk about the issues because I think if he has a debate with the Lieutenant Governor about crime, about the economy, the issues that matter to voters that he'll come out on top tonight regardless of the lieutenant governor's health.
COOPER: Congressman Dent, former President Trump won Pennsylvania in 2016, lost it in the 2020 election. Do you think Fetterman's plan to remind voters of the former President's backing Dr. Oz is that smart? Could it backfire?
CHARLIE DENT, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I think he probably should do it. I don't think it's going to make much of a difference. As Dave Urban just said, I think this is going to come down to John Fetterman's positions. I think this issue of crime is really resonating within the Commonwealth and John Fetterman is going to have to explain himself tonight about why he has voted differently than the Democrat Attorney General Josh Shapiro running for Governor on the Board of Pardons. They've differed over 200 times on votes.
I mean, Fetterman has votes, you know, to release, you know, convicted murderers. One guy who used the garden shears, stabbed the victim 26 times and he voted to pardon them, and so we have these types of issues.
He has also wrapped himself very closely to Bernie Sanders. You know, Fetterman came out against fracking. You know, Pennsylvania is the second largest gas producing State in the country, and that's a major issue.
So I think Fetterman is going to have to, you know, kind of walk back some of these extreme positions he's taken. And, you know, look, we're going to -- we're all sympathetic to him because of his health, but he's going to have to explain this and the question is, we're all watching to see how he comports himself. We'll see how he does tonight with this closed captioning, but I think this is a really important event tonight for Fetterman. He's got to prove that he has the capacity to serve.
URBAN: And Anderson, as you pointed earlier, too --I was going to say, as you pointed out earlier to, you know, yesterday you had Senator Klobuchar on trying to downplay expectations. John Fetterman, even when he was healthy was a terrible debater. If you go back and look at the primaries, the primary debates he had with Connor Lamb and Senator Kenyatta -- Malcolm Kenyatta, he got his clock cleaned.
So his debate performance tonight, you know, healthy or not healthy is going to be viewed by voters very closely.
COOPER: I want to bring in our senior data reporter Harry Enten who's been looking at numbers. What issues, Harry, are sticking out that is important to voters in Pennsylvania?
HARRY ENTEN, CNN SENIOR DATA REPORTER: Yes, I mean, take a look at this. This just looks like a treasure trove. If I was Mehmet Oz, I'd be like, "Oh, fantastic. This is exactly what I want to run on." The very important issues to Pennsylvanians Midterm votes, look at the top three issues, the economy at 82 percent, inflation 80 percent, crime, which we've spoken about so much in this segment at 67 percent. Abortion is way down there at 56 percent.
And I think when you look at this board, you get a very good idea of why Mehmet Oz has been able to close and close and close in on John Fetterman and that is because the issues that are most important to Pennsylvanians are the issues that Mehmet Oz has been running on.
COOPER: And, Harry, how important could this, you know, whether it's Fetterman or Oz determining who wins Senate control?
ENTEN: I mean, this is the ballgame, Anderson. This is the ballgame.
You know, essentially, if you were to say, okay, if Mehmet Oz wins the election, what's the chance that Democrats win Senate control? It's just 25 percent. If John Fetterman woods, the odds flip to 75 percent that Democrats win control of the Senate.
There is not another Senate election in the country, which is as important as the Pennsylvania Senate race. If you tell me who wins the Pennsylvania Senate race, I have a very good idea who wins the control of the United States Senate. And right now as we've kind of been hinting at, it's too close to call and I think that's why Senate control overall, at least as far as analysts, such as myself are concerned is too close to call.
COOPER: Abby, what stands out to you from these numbers?
PHILLIP: Yes, I mean, I think that Harry is right that when this race pivots back in Oz's favor, it's usually when the Oz campaign, frankly, starts to discipline itself and focus on the things that matter the most to voters.
The one curiosity about the Pennsylvania race that I think we don't know how it's going to play out, Fetterman's campaign has largely been waged on personality, on culture, on whether he is the best fit for the State. He has been arguing that Oz is not even from Pennsylvania, that he doesn't understand Pennsylvania voters.
And to some extent, that argument actually served him pretty well, up until this point. And so I do wonder, in some ways, regardless of what transpires at this debate tonight, how much are Pennsylvania voters going to give Fetterman the benefit of the doubt, not on the issues, but just on this idea that he is an unconventional figure, and he is someone who knows the State better than perhaps Oz does.
COOPER: Yes. Interesting.
Abby Phillip, appreciate it. Charlie Dent, David Urban, Harry Enten, Dr. Tara Narula, appreciate it.
Next, what a top Republican in Arizona makes of voters in the State having to cast a ballot with armed individuals watching them and these are not members of law enforcement we're talking about.
Later, as more big campaigns cut ties with Kanye West or companies, I should say and passion campaigns with Kanye West over the antisemitic rantings that he has made, we'll talk with that the head of the Anti- Defamation League about the rising wave of hate speech that is now shouting, not whispered.
COOPER: We are bringing you some new developments tonight on the story we brought you last night about early voters in Arizona coming face- to-face with armed poll watchers, including a grandmother who confronted them directly.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You know, I don't talk. I take care of business. I go out there and I do what I have to do.
Nice to meet you.
I push back against these kinds of people, people who are intimidating voters.
He is spitting out in my face. I'm sitting down, he's with a gun standing over the top of me.
And I'm standing up and pushing back against those people and standing up for everybody's right to vote without fear of retaliation or any kind of intimidation.
I'm just sitting here, I'm not even communicating with them. I'm sitting right here.
You know, seeing that you would think you were in you know, some autocratic nation and not the United States of America.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Last night, a retirees association and a Latino voters organization filed suit in Federal Court accusing a group called Clean Elections USA of violating the Voting Rights Act.
This is what it claims: "Coordinated campaign of vigilante voter intimidation." That's what they call that. The two sides were due in Court this morning, but the defendant's attorney failed to show.
The hearing is now set for tomorrow.
Joining us talk about this is Arizona Republican House Speaker Rusty Bowers, who as you know broke with the former President and much of his party over the 2020 election and testified about it before the January 6 Select Committee.
Speaker Bowers, good to have you back on.
I want to start with your reaction to the woman our reporter, Kyung Lah found whom we just saw, essentially sitting with armed folks who are out there at night. What does it say to you that Arizona voters are even in this situation right now? RUSSELL, "RUSTY" BOWERS (R), ARIZONA STATE HOUSE SPEAKER: Well, A., good for her, you know. She showed hutzpah in droves, and that's what she showed, and bad for them.
You know, I'm a pro-gun guy. But that kind of stupidity just wedges the issue more and more and more and more and then to combine that with being there on the days of the vote when people are putting in their ballots, I mean, I'm glad I don't sell brains, I'd be a millionaire.
And it's just --if there wasn't a lot of it, I mean, I know of two instances, two areas where it happened and it was wrong and it's just stupid. It's stupid.
COOPER: And also, let's just be clear, just from voters who don't understand. There are cameras 24/7 on drop boxes. So these things are being --
BOWERS: These are required in law now.
COOPER: Right. It's by law, so they are being monitored. There are video surveillance constantly of them, and the idea that -- I mean, look, there's an area where people are allowed to sit out there, whatever. But the idea of sort of being, you know, visibly armed, you know, seems very strange and unnecessary.
BOWERS: This doesn't seems -- strange is you're being nice that if I'm walking -- it is like, I go to the drugstore and I just happen to carry my AR along with me and I'm just doing regular things. No.
It is obvious that you're there to make your statement about that we are here to protect the vote and only we can do it if we have an AR in our hands or whatever.
Again, I wish they calm this stuff down for crying out loud and good for that lady. I need to meet her some time. I could use a little bit more of her spine. That's fun. But it hurts all the way across.
COOPER: You know better than most about election integrity, and how does one fight the falsehood that showing up armed is somehow going to magically inspire confidence in elections? Because I mean, it certainly has an intimidation effect on a lot of people. I would be intimidated at night if somebody is armed where I'm dropping off a ballot.
BOWERS: Yes, I wouldn't blame you, but I know that the letter of the law is what they will claim. I'm just saying, you don't need a letter of the law to be smart enough to know that you can go and sit there. You can say "hello," you can use your video camera, you can video somebody. You don't have to have a gun strapped around your shoulder across your chest.
I have no -- there is no excuse for it, and I just think it hurts both sides, the cause of both sides and it is just stupid. COOPER: It is also frustrating because there is no there, there. I mean, every recount, every audit, legitimate and ridiculous have all shown the same thing.
BOWERS: Well, now we're starting to try to be logical, and I have given up.
COOPER: I apologize for that. You're right.
BOWERS: I've given up when people started in on the steal thing, I said, after this long, you're still saying that we're going to rescind the 2020 election? You know, can we come back to Earth?
COOPER: Let me ask you, you received the Profile in Courage Award earlier this year at the Kennedy Library alongside Congresswoman Liz Cheney. I just want to quickly play some of what she said about you that night.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. LIZ CHENEY (R-WY): I just want to say a moment first about Rusty Bowers and his family and his story, and the grace and the compassion and the courage that they have shown is unmatched. And the lesson that he gave us tonight and that he has given us throughout is one that as Americans, we all benefit and are blessed by, so thank you very much.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Obviously, there are a lot of folks in this country who agree with those sentiments about you. Congresswoman Cheney said over the weekend that she thinks if Donald Trump is the Republican nominee in 2024, that the party will actually fracture and a new Conservative Party will emerge. Do you think that's true?
BOWERS: That would be very sad, but I think it's possible. Many, many people have told me, we supported an applauded the early successes of the Trump administration before COVID and look, if he runs again, I hope he doesn't run again because I won't be able to vote for him.
The divisiveness and the fracturing that's happened, I just can't -- they use those words. And that it just -- I just can't vote for him and I want to get us back on track, but it's just gone too far and they won't vote for him.
Hundreds of people with that sentiment over these last months. Now, is that millions? No, but I think that represents a bunch of people.
COOPER: Rusty Bowers, it is always -- it's a pleasure to talk to you. Thank you.
BOWERS: The pleasure is mine.
COOPER: You take care. Be careful. Some of the election denialism driving the unfounded suspicion about early voting is coming from the likes of the Republican frontrunner for Governor Kari Lake, but there is something else in addition to that and as CNN's Kyung Lah reports, it could, by the candidate's own admission, which you'll hear, put Arizona on a collision course with the Federal government.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KARI LAKE (R), ARIZONA GUBERNATORIAL CANDIDATE: Oh my gosh, you guys turned out today.
KYUNG LAH, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice over): In the race for Arizona Governor, Republican nominee, Kari Lake on her plan for border security.
LAKE: Article I Section 10: Rights under the United States Constitution --
Article I, Section 10 United States --
Article I, Section 10, basically authority to take care of our own border.
LAH (voice over): That border is an international border, so the Federal government controls it, but Lake interprets the US Constitution to mean she could do this.
LAKE: As Governor I will issue a Declaration of Invasion. Finish President Trump's wall, blow up the cartels drug tunnels and surveillance drones and deploy the Arizona National Guard to stop illegals from entering.
LAH (voice over): Those explosions and drones are computer generated graphics to illustrate her point, something echoed by fellow Arizona Republican and US Senate nominee, Blake Masters also using computer graphics in his ad.
BLAKE MASTERS (R), ARIZONA SENATE CANDIDATE: This is an invasion. We know what to do. We need to finish Trump's wall.
LAH (voice over): Arizona State University Law Professor, Angela Banks says the reason these nominees specifically use the word "invasion" --
ANGELA BANKS, LAW PROFESSOR, ARIZONA STATE UNIVERSITY: By declaring that there has been an invasion, they believe that they would be able to exercise the Federal powers that are articulated in Article I Section 10. However, the only specific power there that would be relevant for States to engage in would be the power to engage in war.
LAH (voice over): A minor detail that Lake skips on the campaign trail.
LAKE: If you've been following me for even one second, you know that I'm going to declare an invasion on day one, hour one. I don't care if we have to fight the Federal government and the fake news every step of the way.
LAH (voice over): That hardline stance is popular among the Republican base in Arizona, a Border State that has seen the influx of migrants and drugs.
Outgoing Republican Governor Doug Ducey moved more than 100 shipping containers to try and plug holes in the border over the summer, a move that's landed his action in Court, and that is where Lake's constitutional plan would likely end up.
Is this more a political rhetoric? Or does this legally seem feasible to you?
BANKS: So I think this is a lot of political rhetoric, and so I think what we're seeing is a is an effort to turn that rhetoric that's been used in the public discourse into something legally meaningful and I think that is where there are significant questions as to whether that will be successful.
LAH (on camera): But lawyers say "Never Say Never." Legal experts have been surprised at the shift in the way Courts have looked at immigration.
Now, if a Governor Kari Lake is successful on this, not just in policy, but also in the Courts, it would change the way courts view immigration, and also, Anderson, the very definition of what it means with America being the land of immigrants -- Anderson.
COOPER: Kyung Lah, I appreciate it. Thanks.
Now, a CNN exclusive on the effort to get two top former White House lawyers to talk about their conversations with the former President on and around January 6.
CNN's Sara Murray joins us now with the latest on that. So, what have you learned about who the Justice Department is looking to speak with and the complications that could pose for the former President?
SARA MURRAY, CNN POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Anderson the Justice Department is trying to compel Pat Cipollone and Pat Philbin to go before a grand jury investigating the events surrounding January 6, and answer questions about their interactions with former President Donald Trump.
These two men were both top lawyers in the Trump's White House Counsel's Office. They previously appeared before the grand jury, but they refused to answer certain questions about advice and interactions with Trump and Trump has been trying to fight and block them from providing those answers.
He cited attorney-client privilege, executive privilege, and all of this is playing out behind the scenes in a sealed Court fight. It gives you an indication of just how much information the Justice Department wants, particularly about people's interactions with Trump. And also, you know how much Trump wants to try to fight these folks from providing that information to prosecutors.
COOPER: Sara Murray, thanks so much. Appreciate it.
Just ahead, the economist, and a former Clinton and Obama official who predicted the sharp rise in inflation, former Treasury Secretary Larry Summers joins us for a discussion about what he is hearing from both parties on how to fight it and whether or not he sees a recession coming.
COOPER: As our Harry Enten indicated a few moments ago the economy and inflation is a top concern for many voters this year. In Pennsylvania, according to that CBS/YouGov poll he showed us, 82% of voters said the economy was very important, 80% said inflation beating crime as well as guns, abortion and then election issues.
My next guest is a former Treasury secretary and has served in both the Clinton and Obama administrations. Larry Summers was publicly warning about the dire prospects of inflation shortly after President Biden assumed office. Now he's making a new prediction, as he told CNN is quote, more likely than not that we're going to have a recession next year.
I'm joined now by Larry Summers, who is also served as Director of the White House National Economic Council.
Secretary Summers, thanks for joining us. You've been -- we've been talking a lot about the impact the economy has had on how voters cast their ballot. Have you heard anything in policies proposed by Republicans or Democrats that you think would help bring down inflation?
LAWRENCE SUMMERS, FMR TREASURY SECRETARY: I don't think anybody's going to be able to do much that's going to affect it in the short run. I think over time, the Federal Reserve has very substantial capacity to contain inflation. I think there's some things we could do, like promoting the permits for accessing oil like increasing capacity and pipelines, like making it easier to cite renewables like taking down tariffs, like adjusting other kinds of regulation, that over time would make our economy a bit more able to supply things, a bit more flexible, and that that would contribute to reducing inflation.
But I think the most important thing is the decisions that are going to be made by the Federal Reserve, and, frankly, the unfortunate policy decisions that were made during 2021. And the bad luck we've had with Ukraine war and other developments. So, it's all a complicated picture, and we're probably going to have a certain amount of inflation for some time to come.
COOPER: Do you believe a recession is inevitable?
SUMMERS: Yes, I think you should never in economics make a statement with complete certainty. But I think the likely thing is that we will have a recession. We don't have any experience with soft landings from high inflation, without recessions. And I don't think there's anything in this particular pattern of events right now, to suggest that that's something that's terribly likely. So, I think the economy is likely sometime in the next year, year and a half to go into recession, unfortunately.
COOPER: Do you have a sense of how long that may be?
SUMMERS: I think it's, it's not going to be a recession, like the financial crisis was, it's not going to be a recession, where millions and millions of people are going to be laid off in a month, like took place during the pandemic. I think the kind of recession we had, when the dot-com bubble burst in the year 2000, is probably a way to think about it. I'd expect the unemployment rate to get near six, and I would expect it to stay elevated for perhaps a couple of years.
COOPER: What concerns you most right now, in terms of the economy?
SUMMERS: It's probably this phenomenon of trying to deal with overheating that we have at the same time that you're also trying to manage the economy so that you maximize what output we're producing. And you maximize the number of people who have jobs. That is probably the difficulty of finding that balance is what worries me most for the U.S. economy. I also worry that I think we're at a period of increased financial vulnerability, relative to where we were some time ago. And as interest rates rise, Warren Buffett had a picturesque example, he said, when the tide goes out, you start to see who's wearing a bathing suit and who isn't. And something a little like that is happening in the financial sector, as we have the strains associated with higher interest rates.
But there's no real alternative if we're going to avoid the kind of catastrophes we had in the 1970s that caused people to lose faith completely in government and ultimately led to the really very brutal recession of 1981 and 1982, where the unemployment rate crossed 10%.
COOPER: Secretary Summers, I really appreciate your time tonight. Thank you.
SUMMERS: Thank you.
COOPER: Coming up, CNN's Fred Pleitgen on the frontlines in Ukraine, near this Russian occupied southern city of Kherson with a look at a rocket artillery team that Ukraine is using to target Russian forces which Ukraine now believes it's preparing for potential retreat.
Also, there's breathtaking new video from the students in Iran who dare to stand up for a government official after five weeks of bloody protests where hundreds have died. More from the video when we return.
COOPER: Tonight, Ukrainian officials say the Russian forces are preparing defensive positions and a potential retreat from Kherson region in the south, and includes the officials as laying mines along the Dnieper River. CNN cannot independently confirm the Ukrainian military's claim. Our senior international correspondent Fred Pleitgen is in the region with an up close account though of the battle on the front lines.
FRED PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Enroute to the front in one of the most active areas of the brutal war in Ukraine, with a rocket artillery team taking aim at Vladimir Putin's forces. They're called Carlson (ph) and use light trucks with missile pods mounted on the bed. The rockets carry a message of retribution. This one signed on behalf of a fallen soldier for (INAUDIBLE) it says.
UNDENTIFIED MALE (through translation): A vehicle is very effective because we can set up quickly fire and get away again.
PLEITGEN (voice-over): Now they're aiming at Russian positions several miles away. But Russia's artillery is also dangerous and could fire back fast.
UNDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE).
PLEITGEN (voice-over): It's not safe he screamed.
(on-camera): We have to get out of here faster. We have to get out of here as fast as possible because the Russians they target this position after they got hit by the salvo from our rockets.
(voice-over): Their key to accuracy comes from the air. The drone scopes out the target and then watches as the artillery hits a Russian military repair shop the unit says.
UNDENTIFIED MALE (through translation): We are the eyes of the unit. We do reconnaissance and then make sure the target gets hit.
PLEITGEN (voice-over): The Russians are under such pressure they've started evacuating tens of thousands of people from Kherson and the Ukrainians believe Moscow is making its unfounded claims about Kyiv preparing to use a so-called Dirty Bomb because Russia's troops are pinned down in this area.
(INAUDIBLE) commander believes it's only a matter of time before they oust Vladimir Putin's army from here.
UNDENTIFIED MALE (through translation): By the end of the year, we believe Kherson will be under Ukrainian flags.
PLEITGEN (voice-over): (INAUDIBLE) hope their unit will make a small difference in the battle for Kherson.
Fred Pleitgen, CNN in the Kherson region Ukraine.
COOPER: From Iran, we have some new videos some students doing what was once unthinkable heckling a top government official.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: It was reportedly at Tehran University of Technology on Monday, the demonstrators were reportedly chanting get lost during a news conference by the government spokesman forcing him to end early.
Social media also shows students and another protest calling the same official a murderer. The video comes after more than five weeks of protests following the death of the young woman detained by Iran's morality police so-called. According to Iran human rights based in -- around human rights was an organization based in Norway, at least 234 people had been killed, 29 of them children. CNN can't confirm the total number dead in these protests.
Here at home Adidas and other companies no longer selling designer and rapper Kanye West merchandise after his anti-Semitic comments of reaction from the anti-Defamation League, ahead.
COOPER: Tonight, more companies are cutting ties with designer and rapper Kanye West over his offensive and anti-Semitic comments in recent weeks. GAP and Foot Locker say they'll no longer sell his Yeezy merchandise after Adidas this morning terminated its partnership with him. Adidas finally ended its mega deal after coming under intense pressure to take action. The company's saying in a statement that it quote, does not tolerate anti-Semitism and any other sort of hate speech. Forbes meantime estimates the Adidas deal was worth $1.5 billion and says the last bit knocks West off their billionaires list.
There's a bigger concern though, namely that his rhetoric is inspiring more public bigotry with a group demonstrating in support of his comments this past weekend above a Los Angeles freeway. And an anti- Defamation League saying that anti-Semitic incidents were at an all- time high last year. The group pointed that out in a letter to Adidas last week calling on the company to split with him. Joining me now the CEO and national director of the ADL, Jonathan Greenblatt.
Jonathan, do you think that Kanye West being dropped by Adidas and other corporate partners is it enough? I mean, considering the type of comments he's made. Did it surprise you that Adidas took this long?
JONATHAN GREENBLATT, CEO, ADL: Yes, I mean, as the saying goes, Anderson, better late than never. I mean, if as you recall, after Kanye wore that White Lives Matter t-shirt. A few weeks ago, Adidas announced that their partnership was quote, unquote, under review. But my reaction was day after day after day when he spouted the most vicious, vile, anti-Semitic threats, spouted conspiracy theories claiming that Zionist Jews and a Jewish underground media mafia were out to get him. For me, it was Adidas, what more do you need to review? I mean, the reality is, is that in this moment, as you said, when anti-Semitic incidents are at an all-time high, when Jewish people feel truly a level of danger, this kind of rhetoric from someone with his platform, someone with his global following is dangerous.
That's why ADL launched our campaign last week, Run Away From Hate. You know, I spoke over the weekend to senior leadership at Adidas in Germany, we engage their institutional investors, we sent almost 20,000 e-mails to the company. We pulled in celebrities, and I was glad that finally, finally today, they made the decision they did.
COOPER: You know, and I don't know if it was yesterday or the day before that, but Kanye West actually said, you know, that he could say any, he actually said I, you know, I'm paraphrasing, because I don't have it in front of me that, he could say any kind of anti-Semitic stuff. And Adidas would continue to stay in business with him.
GREENBLATT: That's what he said, Anderson, he said, you know, he went on broadcast. He did podcasts. He did you know, TikTok, and YouTube and Instagram we all know. And, of course, he was on Twitter. And his most recent comments were, I could say anti-Semitic blank. And Adidas can't do anything to me. So now what? And I think now we know what. Adidas said we won't do business with bigots. And so did Balenciaga, Creative Artists, MRC. And as you said, GAP today, if you go to gap.com, and you look up their Yeezy product line, it's gone. Anderson, it's as if it never existed.
And while we've talked on your show before, I mean, I'm someone who believes not in cancel culture, but in council culture, when someone with impunity, spouting anti-Semitism, there needs to be consequences. And Kanye learned that the hard way.
COOPER: It's also sickening to see, you know, a group of people on a overpass walkway in Los Angeles with a sign supporting Kanye West and, you know, doing a neo Nazi salute. I mean, when we saw those people with their tiki torches, you know, chanting Jews Will Not Replace Us in you know, in Charlottesville. You know, it was so shocking and you couldn't believe like, whoa, where did these, who are these people? There are now I mean, there's people in LA they're all over the place. GREENBLATT: That's the reality. It is all over the place. You know, we see in 2021 nearly triple the number of anti-Jewish acts of harassment, vandalism and violence. So we had just a few years ago Anderson, a 300% increase.
And I got to tell you there's a through line from Charlottesville to Pittsburgh to Poway to Colleyville, Texas, and now to Los Angeles, California. And let's be clear when people with platforms whether it's a president of United States or a member of Congress, or a hip-hop artists like Kanye West with these huge followings, when they spout hater it gives a license to other haters. So, whether it's, you know, white supremacist or radical anti-Zionists, we've got to call out all of this kind of hate, no matter where it comes from.
COOPER: Jonathan Greenblatt, appreciate your time tonight. Thank you very much.
GREENBLATT: Thanks (INAUDIBLE).
COOPER: (INAUDIBLE) the police commissioner says that Monday's deadly high school shooting could have been worse if not for quick reaction by officers. He says the gunman who killed two people wounded several others use an AR-15 style rifle and had more than 600 rounds of ammunition. He also left a note in his car writing quote, I don't have any friends. I don't have any family. I've never had a girlfriend. I've never had a social life. I've been an isolated loner my entire life. The police commissioner calling it the perfect storm for a mass shooter.
A teacher was killed she was 61 years old. Her daughter said she was looking forward to retiring just a few years. Also killed student Alexandria Bell just weeks before her 16th birthday.
We'll be right back.
COOPER: New episode of my podcast All There Is, is out tomorrow morning. All the past episodes available now. You can point your phone camera at the QR code on your screen for link. It's a podcast about loss and grief and we've had a series of remarkable and poignant conversations with Stephen Colbert and Molly Shannon and others.
This week's episode I talked with the writer and poet Elizabeth Alexander about the sudden loss of her husband in 2012. And how she and her two young children at the time cope with the grief and still do. That's episode seven of the podcast comes out tomorrow morning. You can find it on Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcast.
The news continues right now. "CNN TONIGHT" with Jake Tapper starts. Jake.