Return to Transcripts main page
Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees
House Returns Tonight For 14th Speaker Vote, McCarthy Ally Touts Momentum; Interview With Rep. Dusty Johnson (R-SD); Piecing Together Evidence In Idaho Murders Affidavit; Piecing Together Evidence In Adaho Murders Affidavit; Bills' Damar Hamlin Now Speaking; Tells Team "Love You Boys"; Stunning New Leaks From Upcoming Prince Harry Memoir. Aired 8-9p ET
Aired January 06, 2023 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
RYAN YOUNG, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It's great to be able to share this picture because obviously, there are so many people giving him credit for getting us to where we are right now.
So, just a positive turn to the story at this point -- Erin.
ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: Saving a life. Thank you so much.
And we are two hours away from the House reconvening to continue voting for Speaker. It is going to be a crucial vote and I'll be back here at 10 o'clock with Jake Tapper for our special coverage.
AC 360, meantime starts now.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: And good evening.
It is another night of drama and uncertainty in Washington tonight. In a little less than two hours, the House will reconvene and test Congressman Kevin McCarthy's confidence that he can win over the remaining holdouts he needs to become Speaker-elect and avoid this fate for a 14th straight time.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHERYL L. JOHNSON, CLERK, US HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES: A majority of the votes cast, the Speaker has not been elected.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: After that losing effort, which saw him flip 15 no votes over to his side, the House adjourned to allow time to deal with the rest. What exactly got him this far is unclear. We know some of the proposed concessions and at least one he made has many Democrats concerned it could lead to a government default, we are in territory unchartered since the 1850s.
This is also taking place on the second anniversary of the attack on Congress, with President Biden honoring defenders of democracy in both parties and the law enforcement heroes of that day and remembering those whose lives were lost.
At the same time, Kevin McCarthy was courting the support of lawmakers some of whom denied the outcome of the election. Many who voted as hours after the attack against certifying election results or downplayed what happened.
Some notably McCarthy holdouts, Andy Biggs, have even openly sympathize with the members of the mob now facing trial or some members.
Again, it is not just McCarthy opponents in this group, two years ago tonight, 139 Republican House members voted to overturn the election results, and nearly all of them are back in office, back on Kevin McCarthy's side, a reminder, if nothing else, the connections between the slow motion dysfunction we have seen this week and the brutal version two years ago.
So with the next vote just a couple of hours away, our correspondents have been working their sources. Before we go to CNN's Manu Raju, I just want to put on the screen the six remaining Republicans who voted no, in the last go round -- Andy Biggs, Lauren Boebert, Eli Crane, Matt Gaetz, Bob Good, and Matt Rosendale.
So Manu, what is the latest?
MANU RAJU, CNN SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, right now McCarthy's team is confident that tonight will finally be the night that the 14th ballot, the longest Speaker's election in more than a hundred years, that he will be elected Speaker of the House, but they have moved behind the scenes to work over several of those six members over the past several hours.
They're looking at trying to either get a combination of flipping them to vote for him or changing the voting threshold altogether. How do they do that? By convincing some of them to vote "present."
Now this is the math, 214 members voted for Kevin McCarthy in the last ballot. If all members are present in attendance, and they're voting for a specific candidate, that means 218 votes need to get there. Now, he will get to 216, we know that because two of his supporters have been out of town for various family and medical issues.
Now, they're coming back into town tonight, so that will get him up to 216. So where do the other two votes come from? It could come from some of those members who are flipping. If not, if we have a couple of them, three of them vote "present," it would bring him down to 216 votes, or if he is able to flip one of those members and a couple of those vote present, he could win with 217 votes.
If he is lucky and able to flip two of them, then he would get the magic 218 votes without having to flip any of them to "present." All of those discussions have been taking place behind the scenes over the last several hours. But already Anderson, they are preparing for a very late night.
They're preparing for victory and after victory, expecting McCarthy's speech on the House floor and then following that, they will have to adopt a rules package that will govern exactly how the House will operate.
That rules package has been part of the negotiations for the past several days and includes some major concessions that McCarthy had to make in order to potentially win tonight, one of which would give any single Member of the House the ability to vote to oust a sitting Speaker, somebody that could put his Speakership in jeopardy if he strays from the party line or strays from what some of the hard right members have asked him to do.
So a lot of issues here are still at play, Anderson, but nevertheless, McCarthy's team confident that they will get there tonight in just a matter of hours to be the next Speaker of the House.
COOPER: We are just putting on the screen other proposed concessions, pretty small writing. What else stands out to you? There's stuff about the debt ceiling as well.
RAJU: Yes, that is going to be a huge issue this year. These fights -- the country has never defaulted on its debt and it is a possibility this year, if the two sides can't get together.
Remember this is a narrowly divided House, 222 Republican seats in the House, and the Senate there's a 51/49 Senate Majority controlled by Democrats.
And of course, a Democrat in the White House, dealing with something like the debt ceiling will be hugely complicated, especially given the assurances that McCarthy made to the hard right members of his conference, the assurance that he made was that any debt ceiling increase will be coupled with spending cuts. That is a red line for Senate Democrats and for the White House that have called for simply allowing the debt ceiling to be increased without any ties to it.
So those are negotiations that will have to happen through the course of the year, but if McCarthy were to stray from that, that could also potentially put his Speakership in jeopardy. So those issues will be significant.
Also, they looked at ways to cut the overall domestic discretionary spending, watch for that to be an issue, especially as this could affect some defense programs. Already, some defense hawks on the right are concerned about that, also would give more members on that far right Freedom Caucus, say on some key Committees, including the House Rules Committee, which sets the parameters for debate on legislation.
So all of those issues, McCarthy had to negotiate in order to get to where he is today, barely getting the votes to become Speaker of the House on the 14th ballot, which they believe they'll get to tonight -- Anderson.
COOPER: All right, Manu Raju, appreciate it. We'll be checking in with you throughout the next two hours. Coming up next, right now, let's go to CNN's Melanie Zanona, also on Capitol Hill. As Manu mentioned, McCarthy's strategy at this point is to get the holdouts to vote "present" including one of his staunchest critics, Lauren Boebert, is that right?
MELANIE ZANONA, CNN CAPITOL HILL REPORTER: Yes, Lauren Boebert is definitely one of his staunchest critics. She has been one of the people that's been getting up and nominating other people for Speaker besides Kevin McCarthy. She complained even about Donald Trump calling some of these members and trying to get them to flip their votes and said he needs to stop calling, he needs to call on McCarthy to drop out of the race.
She also, during a heated conference meeting earlier this week, stood up and dropped a swear word because she was so frustrated. But now, we are hearing that she might be in the mix to vote present, and that is key because it could give Kevin McCarthy the votes he needs to become Speaker because it would lower the threshold overall that he needs.
So that is a significant development because previously, we were only hearing two other names, Eli Crane and Matt Rosendale, who were potentially willing to vote "present." Two present votes wouldn't have been enough for him to get there, so if he can get three members to vote present, he will clinch the Speakership.
And so, this just offers a window into the pressure campaign that is building on the remaining holdouts. That was part of the Kevin McCarthy strategy all along. They were going to pick off as many as they could with the concessions and rules changes, and then work one by one to win over the holdouts by getting them to vote yes or to vote present.
COOPER: You've reported that several members have made some personal sacrifices just in order to make tonight's vote happen.
ZANONA: Extraordinary lengths, I would say, some of these members have gone to. That's because the attendance has been so key, since the margins are so, so slim here. Democrats have been doing everything they can to make sure all of their members are here and present and voting against McCarthy and McCarthy has been doing everything he can to ensure all his supporters are there, present and voting for him.
But there was a number of absences. Wesley Hunt just had a baby a few days ago who had to spend time in the NICU. He went back to be with his wife and newborn, but he had to fly back tonight so he could be there for the vote.
Ken Buck, he also had a medical emergency or medical procedure that was pre-planned, he flew back to Colorado. Now, he is also on his way back for the vote tonight. And then there was also a Democrat who got surgery literally this morning, Anderson, came straight to the Capitol afterwards and was still wearing hospital slippers.
So I think it just really offers a glimpse into the personal toll that this drawn-out fight has taken on these members, and just how extraordinary this once in a century Speaker's fight has really been. COOPER: Yes, Melanie Zanona, appreciate it. Thank you.
A lot to watch for over the next several hours.
Joining us now is South Dakota Republican Congressman, Dusty Johnson. Congressman, I appreciate you being with us. You had been aligned with Kevin McCarthy from the beginning, you voted for him 13 times. How confident are you that when the House reconvenes at 10, he will be the Speaker of the House tonight?
REP. DUSTY JOHNSON (R-SD): Well, I've been telling people for three days that we were making progress with negotiations. I've been in those rooms. I felt, Anderson, that there were people of good faith sitting at the table trying to get to yes.
Now a lot of people said, oh, Kevin McCarthy is never going to get there. You guys are wasting your time. But we are close. I wouldn't want to speculate on a timeline other than to tell you, I continue to feel that we're making progress. And frankly, some of the rule changes that have been made are the right things to do anyway.
COOPER: Do you think he will win in the first vote back or do you think it's going to take multiple votes?
JOHNSON: Well, I wouldn't want to speculate as to timeline. That's the thing about these breakthroughs. You never really know exactly when they're going to happen, but we have continued to make progress in a slow and steady way, and I think that's going to continue to happen tonight.
COOPER: You think they'll continue to vote to try to get it there no matter how long it takes tonight?
JOHNSON: Real life happens. Melanie did such good job of giving your viewers a sense of you know, premature babies and medical issues and surgeries and those don't stop.
Kevin Hern who is a Republican vote for McCarthy. He has a memorial service for his mother tomorrow night, and we are going to continue to have those things crop up, and I think Republicans are going to be committed to making sure that Kevin McCarthy is elected at some point in the next few hours.
I would note Anderson, for your viewers that real life is going to continue to happen for House members over the course of the next two years, week in and week out. Anytime anybody gets the sniffles, that's going to impact the math on the House floor.
COOPER: Congressman, you're a supporter of McCarthy. You're also a pragmatic, you want to get stuff done on Capitol Hill, you are not on an extreme, I think it's fair to say. Are you concerned at all about some of the things that have been conceded?
Obviously, you've said some of the rule changes make sense to you. Do you worry about even as a supporter of McCarthy about one person being able to, you know, bring a vote on whether or not he should no longer be Speaker?
JOHNSON: You're right, I do view myself as a pragmatic conservative, and my colleagues do, too. I was elected as the Chairman of the Main Street Caucus, that is between 70 and 80 pragmatic conservatives.
There is a little bit of concern, Anderson, about these rule changes, but I think in the media, it's largely been blown up. The changes come in three ways. Number one, to increase transparency and accountability, a lot of members are supportive of those. I'll give you one example.
A bill should not be voted on before there has been 72 hours for members and the public to review it. That makes a lot of sense to me. Number two, an understanding that the House is stronger if you have all the views on all Committees, that is going to give House Freedom Caucus members more of an opportunity to serve on Committees where they've been underrepresented in the past.
And then number three, a return to fiscal sanity. That has gotten a lot of attention today. But the reality is we are $33 trillion in debt. So some of these budgetary control mechanisms that have been agreed to are really, really important for this country.
COOPER: There isn't -- you know, the majority that the Republicans have in the House, as you well know, is a slim one. So on many issues, there is going to need to be negotiation. There is going to need to be compromise with Democrats, the more power those in the Freedom Caucus, perhaps, or in the farther right side of it have. I mean, is there going to be compromise? Is that going to be possible?
JOHNSON: There is going to need to be some give and take because there is also a United States Senate and the American people, although I'm not very happy about it, put Chuck Schumer in charge of the US Senate or gave him enough members so that he can be in charge.
But I think we want to focus on leverage here, which is if you have a conservative House majority, we are going to start negotiations at a stronger place than when we had a Nancy Pelosi led US House.
No member that I'm talking to feels like we are going to be able to make drastic changes overnight. We didn't get into this country's problems overnight. It's going to take us some time.
But I think what conservatives like myself want to see is movement in the right direction. We want to bend some of these curves in a way that doesn't continue to put us so much deeper in debt.
And I think if we can bend those curves and if we can convince the Senate that it is the right thing to do, this is going to be -- the 118th could be a very fruitful Congress.
COOPER: And just back to the votes, finally, do you think enough holdouts can be persuaded to vote "present." We know that is part of the McCarthy team strategy, thereby lower the overall number needed to win?
JOHNSON: Yes, I wouldn't want to disclose kind of the up to the minute movement of members because I don't want to blow the whole gosh darn thing up.
I mean, I've been involved in a number of these negotiations over the last few years and anytime anything leaks out, because frankly, you just had a couple of your really good Capitol Hill reporters on the air, and they break a lot of news that sometimes it isn't all that helpful to have broken, but when those leaks happen, it does risk blowing the whole thing up. But I've got to tell you, we are making moving in the right direction.
COOPER: Congressman, I really appreciate your time tonight. It's a good conversation. Congressman Johnson, thank you.
JOHNSON: Thank you.
COOPER: As we look ahead to the next vote tonight, we're getting the bipartisan band back together. CNN's political commentators, David Asteron, Karen Finney, David Urban, and Scott Jennings. I don't know if you all have left this building in weeks.
DAVID AXELROD, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Two days.
COOPER: David Axelrod, is it finally going to work out for McCarthy?
AXELROD: I think the gosh darn thing is going to get through is what's going to happen. Yes, I mean, it seems pretty clear. And I said earlier, when we were together earlier that I thought that what would happen is that some of these holdouts would end up voting present so that they could say, I didn't vote for Kevin McCarthy, and yet enable him to get -- to lower the threshold that he needs to lower for his 216 votes to carry.
That is how Pelosi got elected Speaker in 2021.
I do think, you saw -- you heard a little bit of concern on the part of the Congressman. I think if you speak to Republicans in Congress and out of Congress, privately, there's a lot more concern about the leverage that these Freedom Caucus representatives have shown here, and the price that Kevin McCarthy had to pay to win the Speakership.
You know, he's a person of great ambition -- not huge fixed principles, when it comes to politics or philosophy. And now he is tethered by these agreements that he's made, so it doesn't bode well for real productive or harmonious two years.
SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Speaking of the agreements that have been made one Republican --
COOPER: We have that whole list --
JENNINGS: Yes, one Republican tonight, Representative Tony Gonzales has already tweeted that he is not planning to support the rules package, which is the framework by which you would put these agreements into place.
And so I guess one thing we're watching, so McCarthy presumably gets elected. He will be sworn in as Speaker by the Dean of the House, Hal Rogers of Kentucky. He will then swear in --
DAVID URBAN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Make the Kentucky plug.
JENNINGS: He will then swear in the whole Congress. They then go to the rules, and this this is the next key vote: How many people are like Tony Gonzales who say, well, I don't like what was negotiated. I would be stunned if McCarthy's conference, turned out a rules package that was, you know, so hard to turn the Rubik's cube here, but the fact that he has already laid down that marker raise my eyebrow.
KAREN FINNEY, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I -- sorry.
COOPER: That's fine. Go ahead, Karen.
FINNEY: What I was going to say is, it does make you wonder, with that split, are they going to try to use some sort of time in terms of debate on this rules package to continue to socialize it among the members? Because one of things we've been talking about out remember is, how many of these members have actually seen the list that we have seen, but the real fine details?
URBAN: Karen, I may have an answer to your question.
FINNEY: Well, great.
URBAN: Released from Tom Emmer, the Whip, who said at approximately 1:45 to 2:15 AM this morning, they will be voting on the rules package. So you know, assuming that they come in at 10 and they have the votes teed up, McCarthy as Speaker.
AXELROD: Well, I hope they do because if they do --
URBAN: Well, that's another thing, right? I mean --
AXELROD: Because we want the rule in place where the representatives can review bills for 72 hours before they consider them, so they ought to rush it through in the middle of the night here.
URBAN: I think that wasn't in the rules package, yet, but my point is, you know, it's -- you know, to Karen's point, people are still going to read it, they have to do some arm twisting, presumably. And none of this is a done deal, right?
I mean, when Kevin walked back and told Manu, like, I got this, I can count heads. And I was kind of taken aback thinking wow, that's pretty --
COOPER: Do you think, Karen, they'll be able to do tonight?
FINNEY: I don't think we know the answer to that. I don't think they know the answer to that. I mean, let's just remember the way things have been going the last few days. We don't know what's done until it is actually sealed done. The ink is dry.
COOPER: David, are you concerned about the concessions? I mean, are you --
URBAN: I am not concerned about the concessions. I think David Axelrod and I were talking about this before. I think as soon as this is over, and tomorrow, they start doing the Hunter -- they look forward to the Hunter Biden laptop investigations, the border investigations, the Mayorkas impeachment. I think this is all ancient history, and the Republican family is back together again.
This is my opinion, one man's opinion. I think that they move quickly, and then there will be a crisis come August when you have to get a debt ceiling, right? That's going to require real cooperation, and I think will require Democrats to get it through, and that will be a big problem.
AXELROD: The Republican family seems like the Borgias right now.
JENNINGS: The one concession I have heard some concern about is your area of expertise, is the idea of holding flat the Defense spending.
JENNINGS: Which, you know, look, we're in the middle of a war. We've given away a lot of military equipment to another country that needs to be replaced. So I've heard some grumbling about the idea that we would agree to, you know, right now, not increase defense spending.
And so that's one -- I bet you during the debate in the middle of night, we hear some of that on the floor.
URBAN: And that will come up with a budget for next year. That's the '24 budget, because the appropriations process is done. They're not cutting money from this year. They are talking about budget, presumably budgeting, and I'm not sure that Hal Rogers, and other folks are going to want to go along with that kind of --
COOPER: And Karen, what are you hearing from Democrats? I mean, they've obviously been enjoying this spectacle over the last several days. But the reality though is, if this ends, it's going to be a very different Congress that they are facing.
FINNEY: I wouldn't necessarily say enjoying. I mean, I think Democrats also recognize that at a point, this is a pox on all your houses. At some point, the American people are looking at this, and David and I were talking about this yesterday.
The American people will look at this and say, this is dysfunctional Congress, and they won't necessarily distinguish between it's the Democrats, it is the Republicans.
Now of course, Democrats are doing everything they can to make sure you know where the dysfunction is coming, and I think Democrats also recognize that this deal, whatever it ends up being is going to be quite fragile and that there is going to be a lot more of a spotlight on the Republican dysfunction over the next days, weeks, two years.
URBAN: I would say not necessarily so. This will be the last peaceful day in the Biden administration White House, because when the oversight starts, oversight by, you know, Kevin McCarthy gets in by a majority, one vote or two votes, it's going to feel equally as painful if he had 300 votes.
AXELROD: Let me just say about that. I think that this is -- if in fact, the most rabid voices in that caucus are leading the charge here and they go overboard, this is precisely what people feared when they voted last November and why Kevin McCarthy is struggling now because he didn't elect as many people as he thought.
This was a vote against the election deniers, against Trumpism, and against General extremism. And if they feel like this is just a search and destroy mission, I think they're going to pay a price for that.
URBAN: I don't disagree, but I do agree that there is going to be robust oversight on the border, on fentanyl, on withdrawal from Afghanistan, on weaponization of DOJ and FBI -- those are the kinds of things that Republicans want to see take place.
And it is a matter of, is it -- you know, is it an eight or is it an 11? You know, on this --
JENNINGS: Well, it doesn't have a legitimate legislative purpose, because one of the things Republicans have complained about, you know, and there was robust oversight of Donald Trump was that it was just political and vindictive, and what was the legislative purpose?
Even the other day when they released his tax returns. What was the legislative purpose of that? I think where the Republicans, on their oversight, they have got to make the connection. We're looking into this, because we need to change that, and so -- whatever that law happens to be.
So I think as long as they are making those legislative connections, by the way, other than oversight, I do expect the first sets of legislation to be around maybe repealing the 87,000 IRS agents, maybe something on prolife. You know, there's some other legislation priorities --
AXELROD: Performative because the Senate is not going to embrace those things.
FINNEY: Yes, and again, as some of the members, actually, even the Republican members earlier this week said they didn't want it to be messaging those, those aren't going to be performative messaging those quite frankly.
AXELROD: I think if the group that drove this whole deal this week become prominent figures in the next two years, that a lot of those moderate or more moderate Republican, Senate right Republicans, particularly in closer swing districts, contested districts, they are going to have a real hard time in 2024.
So Kevin McCarthy will celebrate tonight, but he's not going to be celebrating in August, and he may not be Speaker in September, and they may not be in the majority in 2024.
COOPER: This has been a victory for the 20 holdouts. I mean, it's been a victory for the House Freedom Caucus and for those who are probably more on the extremes, no?
URBAN: Look, I think that some of the things that are being discussed, you know, open votes on the floor, you're going out for an amendment.
Most Americans look at that and say, what's wrong with that? What's wrong with having 72 hours to look at a bill? What's wrong with, you know, some of the spending reforms to look at?
I don't think they're all that radical, right? I don't think -- now, placing and changing Committee ratios, right, making sure that there are certain House Freedom Caucus people, three Freedom Caucus members on the Rules Committee, which controls what goes to the floor, right. Certain things like that are a little bit different. But I think that what was given up is not really that shocking, and shouldn't be to Americans.
JENNINGS: It is a victory for some of these conservatives who have wanted these reforms. It was not a victory for the Matt Gaetz faction.
COOPER: You don't think he comes out of this --
URBAN: Yes, like Chip Roy.
JENNINGS: Chip Roy looks good.
URBAN: Chip Roy looks great, right? And Scott Perry --
JENNINGS: But these folks who have been on the floor, you know, Matt Gaetz the other day, saying, we're going to take Kevin McCarthy out of here in a straitjacket. This is a defeat for that kind of activity in this conference.
And it was a victory for the people who wanted to operate in good faith. Whatever you think of the rules, whatever you think of the outcome here, there were people who tried to get to an outcome and then there were bomb throwers and the chaos caucus -- it was a loss to the chaos caucus.
AXELROD: But the outcome, they came to, embraced many of the goals of the people who you call bomb throwers, and it basically emasculated the Speaker or the speaker to be, if he is to be, and he is going to be the weakest that we've seen in a very long time.
COOPER: Everyone stick around, we are going to see all of you again shortly as we wait to see what happens when the House comes back in session at 10:00 PM. While we wait, some other big stories we want to tell you about tonight.
In a moment, the evidence Idaho authorities released they say points to Bryan Kohberger, this man, in the murders of those four college students in Idaho. Our Gary Tuchman is on the ground there. He will walk us through how it all fits together the evidence that's been presented thus far.
Also the latest on Buffalo Bills' safety, Damar Hamlin. He is now talking, we will tell you what he said and how he is doing.
COOPER: We will return to the Speaker's vote shortly along with any updates on negotiations.
Right now, we want to take a deeper dive into the affidavit that Idaho prosecutors released Thursday. Our first look at the evidence that they say led authorities to charge Bryan Kohberger with four counts of murder in the first degree, plus felony burglary in the murders of four University of Idaho students.
Now the documents include DNA evidence, cell phone data, and witness testimony.
Gary Tuchman is in Idaho tonight. He joins us now with a groundside perspective and how all that evidence may fit together.
Gary, talk about what you found.
GARY TUCHMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Anderson, authorities have uncovered a lot of evidence in this case, including an interview with a witness, a housemate who survived this rampage, referred to as DM in the affidavit.
We want to show you locations that are critical to this investigation.
TUCHMAN (voice over): In the probable cause affidavit, a Moscow Idaho Police Corporal says after finding the victims who were killed, "I noticed what appeared to be a tan leather knife sheath laying on the bed. The Idaho State Lab later located a single source of male DNA left on the button snap of the knife sheath."
Police say the DNA is suspect, Bryan Kohberger's.
TUCHMAN (on camera): This is the house where the college students were killed. According to the affidavit, when police arrived, they went through that door where the Christmas wreath is.
On the second floor to the right of the door is the bedroom where Xana Kernodle and Ethan Chapin were killed. Also on the second floor to the left in the back of the house, according to the affidavit, that is where the witness DM was.
And finally on the third floor, you see that window right there, according to the affidavit, that's where Kaylee Goncalves and Madison Mogen were and that's where the knife sheath was found.
TUCHMAN (voice over): Based on the affidavit, it appears Bryan Kohberger has been near this house many times before. The affidavit indicating Kohberger's cell phone signal was detected 12 times near the house over a period of five months prior to the murders.
All of these occasions, except for one, occurred in the late evening and early morning hours of their respective days.
(On camera): It wouldn't necessarily be suspicious if Bryan Kohberger drove past this house twelve times over five months, if these were busy or prominent streets or streets on the way to another neighborhood. But to come here, you have to be looking for, this doesn't connect anywhere else. These roads are windy, they're narrow, they're curvy, in short, it seems difficult to accidentally end up here. The affidavit states that one of the students who survived with the initials DM heard crying and opened her door three times. She saw a figure clad in black clothing in a mask that covered the person's mouth and nose, walking towards her. DM described the figure as 5'10" or taller, male, not very muscular, but athletically built, with bushy eyebrows. The male walked past DM as she stood in a frozen shock phase. The male walked towards the back sliding glass door.
DM locked herself in her room after seeing the male. DM did not state that she recognized the male. This turned out to be critical information because on November 25, shortly after the murders, Moscow police asked law enforcement agencies to be on the lookout for a white Hyundai Elantra that had been seen near the murder site.
Four days later, police discovered a white Elantra in this parking lot just across the state line in Pullman, Washington. According to the affidavit, it was registered to Kohberger who lived up these stairs in this townhouse complex. Police acquired his driver's license information, and they say, according to the affidavit, that it was consistent with DM's description of the man she saw, who was wearing black clothing and a mask.
The affidavit does not contain information about motive or if the alleged killer knew any of the victims, but authorities could very well have leads about those topics that are not being publicly released yet.
COOPER: Gary, when is the suspect's next appearance in court?
TUCHMAN: Yes, so Kohberger will be appearing in the courthouse behind me next Thursday, Anderson, for a status hearing to discuss scheduling. It's expected he'll be arraigned within the next two weeks, where he'll issue a plea. Anderson. COOPER: Yeah, Gary, I appreciate it. Thank you. I'm joined now by John Miller, CNN's Chief Law Enforcement and Intelligence Analyst Mary Ellen O'Toole, a retired FBI Special Agent, Legendary Profile, and Lawrence Kobilinsky, Forensic Scientist at John Jay College of Criminal Justice.
John, one of the victim's father states, told CNN that he believes the suspect was hunting the victims. The word stalking was used, I think, in the affidavit. What do you make of what's come out of that affidavit so far?
JOHN MILLER, CNN CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT AND INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: I think what the affidavit tells us is about cellular telephone records and tower hits. It tells us about the number of times the car is seen there. So, what you get from that is -- and Mary Ellen O'Toole can explain more about hunting behavior is the term. He's there twelve times at that area around 1122 King Street between August and the time of the murders, which is a long time to be kind of looking at your victims. During times, you know, suspects tend to fantasize, not just do surveillance, but fantasize about what the crime is going to be like and how it's going to occur.
You've got the cell records who place them there, and then you have his car going by there numerous times, not just on the night of the murder where it passes four times before the crime, but a car that fits the description of his car is detected on video other times before. So, if this individual is the killer, he's been thinking about this and working on this for a long time.
COOPER: Mary Ellen, the father of one of the victims, also mentioned that he has no information suggesting the suspect was in contact with the victims. Have you seen cases where an offender targets people he has no connection to, especially over the course of months, just chooses to watch somebody and eventually act?
MARY ELLEN O'TOOLE, RETIRED FBI SPECIAL AGENT- PROFILER: Sure, absolutely. That's a way to access a victim. You just see them and you follow them to their home or to their office. So, you know now where you can come back the next day and maybe follow them again. So, you don't necessarily have to have an encounter at a pub or at a restaurant, you can just casually see someone along the street and then follow them and they would never know. And then, coming back on twelve separate occasions. That makes total sense to me because as John was pointing out, that's the way that they collect intelligence about what is going on in the house, who's coming and going, what doors do they come in from, who else is there, what are the other cars around? So, in a case like this, you have to have a real time intelligence before you can make a safe entry.
COOPER: Lawrence, I also want to ask you about the knife sheath where the suspect's DNA was found. You say you don't believe it was really the DNA that led to the arrest?
LAWRENCE KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST; JOHN JAY COLLEGE OF CRIMINAL JUSTICE: That's right. I think that normally DNA is the kind of evidence that can lead to the identity of the suspect. But, you know, you have to rely on this huge database called CODIS, which has over 14 million profiles.
But, you know, if Kohberger never committed the kind of crime, a felony, that would cause him to end up on a database if he's not there, then searching a database with that evidentiary profile doesn't get you any place. Not that DNA is unimportant. It's very important, but I believe it was the vehicle and the cell phone, the combination of the two, and tracking that vehicle all the way to Pennsylvania and then going through the trash, finding an abandonment specimen. And that specimen was similar to the profile -- the evidentiary profile from the sheath. It was similar, but not exactly the same. I just eyeballing it, one could see right away that it was a fraternal relationship. In other words, the DNA that came out of that trash in Albrightsville, Pennsylvania, that DNA came from the father of Bryan.
And so, at this stage, what they need to do is have a cheek swab from Bryan Kohberger and compare it to the DNA from the button on, and then it's an absolute match.
COOPER: And they were able to do that as soon as they had a warrant?
MILLER: They did that with the arrest. So, when they do the arrest of Bryan Kohberger, they walk in with three warrants. One, to search this house in Pennsylvania. Two, to search that car, the white Elantra in the driveway. And three, to take hair and a swab from you for DNA to confirm the familial match that had already been made. So, Dr. Kobilinsky hit it on the head.
One thing on top of what Mary Ellen said, though, when you talk about the stalking, the hunting behavior is, this isn't your father's serial killer. You know, today a lot of what she -- what Mary Ellen referred to as intelligence gathering, if you went on the Instagram page and I did of Kaylee or Maddie, there's hundreds and I mean hundreds of pictures of them everywhere they went. And by the way, I'm slightly exaggerating, but not by much. They're almost indiscernible because so many of their pictures are together.
I will almost guarantee you that the suspect in this case is somebody who spent a great deal of time on their social media, which was open to anybody. You could sit in front of the house, you could watch them come and go, but you could really get in depth there.
COOPER: Mary Ellen, I mean, John brings in a really interesting point, and I hadn't really thought much about this, but how social media, how Instagram people documenting their lives, it does aid anybody who wants to follow somebody and maybe feel part of their life?
O'TOOLE: Right. And they would never know. They would have no information about who that person is. And if they intended to hurt them or to kill them, they simply would not know. So, that could have played, and probably did play a critical role in this case, to give the offender a great deal of information about them. And again, I think knowing what their hours were, what they kept, who was there, where their rooms were located, how you got access to that house. So, I think he was -- the offender was probably doing a pretty darn good job of developing intelligence.
COOPER: John, the killings are thought to have occurred, I think, between four and 04:25 A.m. Authorities weren't called until around noon. We know the person known as DM by their initials saw the kill around 04:00 a.m., does that timeline make sense to you?
MILLER: It makes sense. I mean, the question that everybody's struggling with, whether it's the father of Kaylee or others is, why didn't the witness who saw the murderer leave, call the police at that point? But that's in hindsight. We won't know that until she testifies at trial. But you could surmise that she heard crying from upstairs. She heard the dog barking. She heard a male voice say, it's OK, I'm here to help you. She heard part of what might have been an argument. I mean, it's possible that she thought, I don't know what's going on up there, but maybe somebody had an argument with somebody and this guy's leaving, I'm going to lock my door and go to bed. The killer literally returns to the scene in the morning to kind of check it out, according to the affidavit, and the police haven't even been called yet, nor have the murders been discovered. So, it's a very strange story.
COOPER: John Miller, I appreciate it. Mary Ellen O'Toole and Lawrence Kobilinsky as well. Thanks so much.
Coming up, medical update on Bills safety, Damar Hamlin, breathing on his own, now talking what he said. Plus, Dr. Sanjay Gupta, next.
COOPER: We'll return to the Speaker's vote shortly. Right now, the latest on Damar Hamlin. Four days after the Buffalo Bills safety collapse on a football field in Cincinnati with medical staff upon CPR after a brutal hit led to cardiac arrest. Hamlin has had its breathing tube removed and is now able to talk. He surprised his team today with the FaceTime chat. Here's the Bills' head coach on that emotional moment.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEAN MCDERMOTT, BUFFALO BILLS HEAD COACH: The thing that makes me laugh is he did this to the guys right away. He flexed all of them, I guess, and he's just got some staple things that they know him for and that he does. He made the heart symbol probably more than anything, and then he gave him a thumbs up, so. And then, somewhere in the midst of that and it was hard to hear, but he -- as you'd imagine, he said, I love you boys, and of course I got the guys.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: One teammate told reporters that seeing Hamlin and hearing him talk took them from the saddest you can really feel to the happiest. That was a quote. The Bills said -- say, the doctors believed Hamlin is progressing remarkably. The NFL says that during the games this weekend, teams will show league wide support for Hamlin. [20:45:01]
For more on what his medical condition is, I'm joined by CNN Chief Medical Correspondent Dr. Sanjay Gupta. So, when you hear that Hamlin actually was able to speak to teammates, make this FaceTime call, I mean it sounds pretty remarkable?
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: It is remarkable. You know, doctors, I think, are hesitant to use terms like that often because you want to take each patient individually. But two and a half days after that cardiac arrest on the field, minutes of CPR, defibrillation, his lungs were so affected that they had to put him in a prone position. I mean, those are -- you know, that signs that he was quite ill, as the doctors have been very transparent about, but then, you know, overnight seemed to have a significant improvement and lots of obviously, progress today. So, it is -- it's pretty remarkable, and it bodes well, I think, going forward.
COOPER: The milestone of having someone's breathing tube be removed, what's the standard for that?
GUPTA: Two important standards for that. One is, I guess, obvious they're breathing on their own. I mean, they don't need assistance to breathe anymore. Last night, we talked about the fact that once the fluid if you think about the lungs as being sponges, if fluid fills those sponges, they become boggy, hard to ventilate. They're in good enough shape now where they could have the breathing tube out. The second thing, I little bit more subtle, but someone could have good functioning lungs, but are so unconscious or sedated that they can't protect their airway. So, he's got to be awake enough to protect his airway. So, once you can protect your airway, breathe on your own, that's the standard for taking the breathing tube out. And he passed that test today.
COOPER: So, I mean, obviously, as you said, it's been only days since Hamlin was resuscitated. What did doctors look for now in terms of his recovery, in terms of over the next steps?
GUPTA: One of the big things that we did learn, you know, over the last day was that his central nervous system, brain and spinal cord appear to be working really well. It's funny, when you hear coach McDermott talk about him doing this sign, you know, as a neurosurgeon, I think about, OK, that's giving me an indication of what his spinal cord can do, how he's responding to commands. And it's all very good.
But, you know, other organs, the kidneys, the liver, there's going to be this testing. They're still going to be investigating, Anderson, we've heard from the doctors as to what may have been the genesis of all this as well. We still don't know. There some underlying condition, some sort of preexisting condition that may have predisposed him to this. Pretty clearly, it was related to the hit, obviously, that he took on the field. But then we heard he had a pulse for a period of time after that, and then he became pulse lists while they were assessing him on the field. What causes all that? That's going to be part of the investigation going forward.
COOPER: So, I mean, there's no way to know a timeline for him actually getting out of around the clock care.
GUPTA: Well, you know, when you're in the ICU, you're getting around the clock care. And once you're off the breathing machine and not requiring medications to stimulate your heart, he's probably going to go to the general care floor, which is still in the hospital, but it's not ICU care. And once he's able to essentially be able to do things independently, walk around, be able to feed himself, do all those sorts of things independently, that's usually a sign that he can be out of the acute care hospital. He may still need some rehab, you know, just even a few days. You might need some, you know, you may need some conditioning. But I would say within the next few days, and look, you know, you and I were talking last night and I said these things are measured in days and weeks as opposed to hours and days. But he's clearly recovering very quickly. I mean, a 24-year-old guy who's a professional athlete has that physiology. It's clearly, so far, at least, working in his favor. I think the doctors are going to still be cautious, but it's moving along pretty quickly.
COOPER: Dr. Sanjay Gupta, thanks. Appreciate it.
Coming up, more revelations from Prince Harry's new memoir before it even hits bookshelves from going to the site of his mother's death. The personal moment he calls humiliating to an admission about his military service. That's next.
COOPER: We're continuing to watch for developments on Capitol Hill. We're waiting for the House to be back in session, which is expected just over an hour. Kevin McCarthy is focusing on Republican holdouts, hopes become speaker before the night is over, after losing 13 times so far.
We're also following right now some of the details that have come out about Prince Harry's memoir, which goes into bookstores on Tuesday. I spoke with the Duke of Sussex for a 60 Minutes interview that's going to air a Sunday night on CBS. A number of details have already leaked from a number of publications in various parts of the world. Details about an altercation between Prince William and Harry during an argument. CNN's Royal Correspondent Max Foster joins us now with more.
MAX FOSTER, CNN ROYAL CORRESPONDENT: From the Sirius to the salacious, Harry's memoir spare has leaked and the excerpts are shocking the U.K. We learned that he lost his virginity to an older woman when he was 17. It was humiliating, he says, according to Sky News. One of my mistakes was letting it happen in a field just behind a busy pub. Harry opens up about Princess Diana's death. He visited the site of the car crash that killed his mother, in a bid for closure, according to an excerpt in People Magazine.
I'd thought driving the tunnel would bring an end or brief cessation to the pain, the decade of unrelenting pain, he writes. By Harry's own admission, he may be oversharing, but that's what makes this book remarkable. And these Brits are sympathetic.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He's shown that he's a real person and he's not afraid to embrace that. And I think that's really brave.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He's a good person in heart, even though I don't know him.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think more people should be like Harry.
FOSTER: The tabloids are having a field day and Harry won't be surprised. It was a newspaper that exposed his relationship with Meghan, and since then it's been war.
PRINCE HARRY: I had no idea the British press was so bigoted. I didn't see what I now see.
FOSTER: But one revelation that he killed 25 insurgents as a soldier in Afghanistan, has created a backlash among some of his former comrades.
COLONEL RICHARD KEMP, FORMER BRITISH ARMY COMMANDER IN AFGHANISTAN: Publicly standing up and saying, I killed 25 Taliban. Obviously, he's got concerns about his own personal security and making such a public announcement just makes it worse.
FOSTER: Harry served in the British Army for ten years and he completed two tours in Afghanistan. It's this criticism that may sting him the most.
FOSTER: And there are more revelations to come. Two big interviews this weekend, another on Monday, all part of the build up to the official book launch on Tuesday, Anderson.
COOPER: Max Foster, thanks very much. I'm one of those interviews it's kind of weird. Program note, you can join me Monday night on this program for a special report on Prince Harry's life and the rift between him and the royal family, and other details from his book. That special includes my conversation with the Prince for Sunday's edition of 60 Minutes, and you can watch that one on Sunday night, 60 Minutes on CBS. Our 360 Special, the Harry Interview airs Monday night, 08:00 p.m. Eastern, right here on CNN.
Don't go anywhere because the House of Representatives will gavel back on this Friday night. The question is, will Kevin McCarthy's grueling battle to become speaker resulted triumph on the 14th vote? The answer, we don't know. But we're coming back with all the latest report.