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Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees
Confusion And Fear At Southern Border As Title 42 Ends; Trump, DeSantis Head To Iowa Tomorrow For Dueling Events; Doctors In Idaho Fleeing State Due To Abortion Restrictions; Attorneys For Family Of NYC Chokehold Victim Speak Out; "Doomsday Mom" Found Guilty Of Killing Her Two Children, Conspiring To Kill Husband's Ex-Wife; International Criminal Court Chief Prosecutor Addresses War Crimes During Ukraine Conflict; Emergency Talks In Italy Over Soaring Pasta Prices. Aired 8- 9p ET
Aired May 12, 2023 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: So Drew and Patti, congratulations. We are so happy for you and your family.
And thanks so much to all of you for joining us on this Friday. Don't forget, you can watch "Out Front" anytime, anywhere on CNNgo.
Have a great weekend. "AC360" starts now.
[20:00:17]
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: Good evening.
There is still concern tonight that there may be a rush of migrants across the southern US border after a pandemic or health policy known as Title 42 that allowed authorities to quickly expel migrants seeking asylum was allowed to lapse.
Earlier this week, President Biden had warned it could be "chaotic for a while." Tens of thousands of migrants are believed to be massed in northern Mexico and two Texas counties issued disaster declarations in preparations.
Today however, there is no evidence of a rush, at least not an immediate one.
This video from the US-Mexican border is probably the best evidence of that. On the left, you see the border as it was yesterday with migrants camped just outside it; on the right, the border as it was today.
There's a lot of theories of where those people went. We'll get to that in a moment. A source tells CNN that according to account by Border Patrol, around 23,400 migrants were in custody as of this afternoon. That's slightly lower than earlier this week.
Nevertheless, the administration is still preparing for more migrants seeking asylum. ICE, for instance, is adding 5,000 detention beds.
There's also the political chaos where Republican calls for the border to be shut down and the Biden administration saying Republicans are trying to "sabotage" its efforts on the border after a federal judge's ruling in Florida.
Ed Lavandera starts us off tonight from El Paso, Texas with the latest.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ED LAVANDERA, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice over): After Title 42 ended late Thursday night, some migrants discovered they didn't make it in time.
(UNIDENTIFIED MALE speaking in foreign language.)
LAVANDERA (voice over): This father and son from Venezuela were turned away, but he says the goal is to get to the other side to find a way to reach the United States, but we'll have to wait and figure it out.
ALEJANDRO MAYORKAS, HOMELAND SECURITY SECRETARY: We've been very, very clear that there are lawful, safe, and orderly pathways to seek relief in the United States. And if one arrives at our southern border, one is going to face tougher consequences.
LAVANDERA (voice over): In the days leading up to last night's deadline, Border officials saw a surge of migrants. More than 23,000 are now in CBP custody, down slightly from earlier this week.
But the end of Title 42 did not trigger the historic wave of migrants rushing to cross the border Friday that was predicted. In El Paso, thousands were waiting to be processed outside the border gate.
RAUL ORTIZ, US BORDER PATROL CHIEF: We are prioritizing those most vulnerable populations. We're doing this as quickly as efficiently and as safely as we possibly can.
LAVANDERA (voice over): That number now down to a couple hundred says the city's mayor.
MAYOR OSCAR LEESER (D), EL PASO, TEXAS: After yesterday's spike at about 1,800 that came in yesterday, we've not seen any additional big numbers come in through the El Paso sector.
JOHN MARTIN, RUNS MIGRANT SHELTER IN EL PASO: We have lean-tos or tents, whatever term you want to use, literally all along the wall.
LAVANDERA (voice over): John Martin runs a network of shelters in El Paso and said the crowds have dramatically dwindled in recent days.
MARTIN: As of about 11 o'clock this morning, we had no new arrivals.
LAVANDERA (voice over): While he was surprised at the lack of influx the morning after Title 42 lifted, he doesn't expect it will stay this way.
MARTIN: I have to admit, it is nice to be able to breathe one more time. But we can't let our guard down because we still know it's coming.
LAVANDERA (on camera): In January, US Customs and Border Protection opened this massive tent processing facility in the El Paso area about 20 miles from the US-Mexico border. It is designed to be able to hold about a thousand migrants at a time.
And as you can see, construction crews are working to expand and we're told by CBP officials, in June they'll have room for another 1,000 migrants to hold at this facility.
LAVANDERA (voice over): In Brownsville, dozens of buses line up near an intake facility, but a major humanitarian group in the area tells CNN they only had one bus of migrants arrive today.
About 155,000 migrants were estimated to be in shelters and on streets in Mexico waiting to enter the US, a source familiar with federal estimates said.
Migrants will still risk their lives to make it to the US and from now on, people who cross the border illegally will face a tougher path to requesting asylum. Many will be deported, like this group who were shackled and led onto a repatriation flight like this one leaving for Guatemala on Thursday.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: And Ed Lavandera joins us now. You mentioned there were thousands of migrants waiting to be processed outside a border gate in El Paso. Today, that number dropped down to a couple hundred. What happened to those people? Were they processed? What went on?
LAVANDERA: Yes. They were brought into the US. They were processed by Border Patrol and then released if they get the proper documentation. They could also be deported. It depends on the individual cases.
But Anderson, to give you a sense of how things have changed here dramatically. This is an alleyway behind a migrant shelter here in El Paso that in the days leading up to the end of Title 42 was packed with people sleeping outside.
So you can see how dramatically this has changed for now and in speaking with several migrant advocates throughout the day today, they believe that what's happening is that right now on the southern side of the border, tens of thousands of migrants are kind of reassessing the border landscape, and then trying to figure out when the next best opportunity might be to cross into the US -- Anderson.
[20:05:19]
COOPER: All right, Ed Lavandera. Appreciate it.
I am joined now by the mayor of El Paso, Texas, Oscar Leeser.
Mayor, appreciate you joining us.
We just heard the comments you made earlier in that reporting from Ed Lavandera. How is the situation now in El Paso? What are your people seeing on the ground?
LEESER: You know, it haven't changed any from when I was talking earlier this morning.
You know, when you were talking about Gate 42, there was about 1,800 last night. They were all processed, but there were two to three hundred, which were processed by early this morning.
And then I was just down there where Ed was talking a few minutes ago, I just got back from there and the numbers are way down. On Monday, we saw about 3,000 people there. And the Border Patrol, with assistance from a lot of agencies went in and handed out handouts to be able to help them register and get processed, so they could go into the processing centers and be able to go on to whether it is shelters, immigration centers, or anything like that.
But the numbers have changed and then I was in Juarez a week ago and they had told me, it was ten to twelve thousand people ready to cross at any moment.
I went into their shelters, and there were 20 people in there. And now, I went in two days ago to see what to expect. We've been trying to prepare for months now for the unknown, and I went over there and I noticed that -- and talked to the officials, there are 3,000. They told me they have to stretch what was over there, ready to come across, there's maybe 5,000.
So we've been prepared. We've worked for this. And I think that -- we thank all the agencies together to be able to have done this in a very, very orderly way and humane way and that's the important part that we want to treat people the way you want to be treated and make sure that our asylum seekers and also the community of El Paso continues to be safe.
COOPER: Do you -- I know -- I mean, you have been one of the mayors who have been busing people to cities like New York and elsewhere, unlike some you've actually been coordinating with those cities that you send those buses to as far as I understand.
Do you expect to do more of that? Is there a need for that now?
LEESER: No, we will continue to help our asylum seekers go to their destination, and those, I think, we did back then. And I was very thankful for Mayor Adams who came down and kind of looked at our process and how we were doing because he wanted to know why people wanted to go to New York.
And he sat there and talked to some of the asylum seekers and he asked them, how many y'all want to go to work? There's probably 50 or so around there and they all raised their hands. Who wants to go to New York? And they raise their hand yes. And why do you want to go to New York. They say because we've seen it on TV.
Well, they want to make their life better for themselves and their families and these are large markets. They feel they have a great opportunity to continue to raise their family and provide a better way of life for them.
COOPER: So I mean, are you seeing the surge that everyone expected? Or did it -- I mean, has it -- were the numbers big last week? Were you expecting different numbers today?
LEESER: You know, and that's why I keep saying we want to prepare for the unknown and we still have not seen the numbers we expected.
You're right. We expected a lot more numbers to be coming in today, but then a few days prior to when I went into Mexico, and I assessed it myself and talked to officials in Mexico, I knew the numbers were not going to be the way we looked at it.
And the largest amount was 1,800 that came in through Gate 42 that were processed. And you know, and I think Ed kind of said it best that they were processed and they will go to Annunciation House. So go to the opportunity house. So go to some of the city shelters.
We've opened two schools that have been vacated by the school district, and we've been able to make them temporary shelters so we can help these people.
COOPER: Yes. So, I mean, as the mayor of El Paso, how do you -- I mean, how big a burden is this for you? I mean, this must take up as a mayor of a major city, this must take up a good bulk of your time.
LEESER: You know, but we are a border community and we do have responsibilities. I know and everyone knows that these people aren't coming to El Paso, Texas. They are coming to the United States.
And Secretary Mayorkas and the federal government really have helped us to be able to provide the service, but we all know that the immigration process is broken and we understand that and we're hoping that, you know, Congress learns that they need to agree to disagree and compromise because there is no end game.
In communities like El Paso on the southern border, we can't continue for infinity. There's something that has to happen, because we'll continue to provide a humane process for our asylum seekers. But again, something has to change to be able to do the job of the federal government.
COOPER: Mayor Oscar Leeser, I appreciate your time. Thank you.
Still to come tonight, the former president and the Florida governor who might become his chief Republican rival for the White House, Ron DeSantis descends upon Iowa tomorrow. Those first in the nation caucuses are just months away.
We'll speak with "Des Moines Register's" chief politics reporter about the mood of Republican voters in her state.
And later, my conversation with the family's attorneys for Jordan Neely aftermath Manhattan prosecutors today charged a man for choking Neely to death in a New York subway train.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:13:49]
COOPER: The former president and his potential chief opponent for the Republican nomination for the presidency, Florida governor, Ron DeSantis head to Iowa tomorrow. They will be speaking at dueling events in the state which hosts the first contest in the Republican primary process.
The most recent Iowa poll from the "Des Moines Register" shows the former president and DeSantis with high favorables, 80 percent to 74 percent. However, the former president has much higher unfavorables, 18 percent to six percent.
We should note that poll was taken before the Manhattan DA's office brought 34 felony counts against the former president. Since then, his national polling among Republicans seems to have risen.
I'm joined now by the chief politics reporter for "The Des Moines Register," Brianne Pfannenstiel. Brianne, thanks so much for being with us.
How do you see both of them appealing to Iowans this weekend?
BRIANNE PFANNENSTIEL, CHIEF POLITICS REPORTER, "THE DES MOINES REGISTER": Well, I think you're going to see some really different events. You know, Donald Trump has been in the state quite a lot over the last several years. Iowans more or less know what they're going to get from him. So, he's holding a big rally here in Des Moines and I think you're going to see what you see in a lot of these events, some really enthusiastic supporters, his real core base of supporters.
And so I think you're going to see his team really working hard to make sure that those people are registered to vote, make sure that they're signed up to volunteer with a campaign, make sure that they are really engaged with this process.
[20:15:04]
On the other end, you've got Ron DeSantis who has only been in the state once before. He is holding events in Sioux Center and in Cedar Rapids.
And so his job is going to be a little different. He's going to be here really trying to excite the Republican base, really try to offer something different and create a contrast with the former president.
And really, you know, paint a picture that he is worth, you know, the hype.
COOPER: I know one of the core issues that you expect Iowans to vote on is abortion. The former president was asked if he'd be in favor of a federal abortion ban the other night, he never gave a straight answer. How do you think that plays among conservatives and evangelicals in the state. Governor DeSantis, you know, clearly is making a play for them. PFANNENSTIEL: Yes. Abortion is a really important issue for Iowa
Republicans as it is for many Republicans across the country. But you've got a real range of folks, right?
The evangelical base, as you mentioned, is a real religious group, you know, they really want to see a national federal ban on abortion. They want to see this go as far as they can toward protecting life.
And so, you know, they're looking at Donald Trump with, you know, a bit of a complicated lens, right? You know, he created the pathway, you know, for Roe versus Wade to be overturned. But after the midterm elections, he turned around and blamed, you know, Republicans' focus on abortion for losing some of those fights.
And so, in that vein, I think Republicans are a little bit skeptical, but they also look at him as being, you know, the most pro-life president in history. And so they've got a mixed bag with Donald Trump. But you've also got people who really just want to win the election. They want to be Joe Biden.
And so they worry, again, that this issue has gone too far to the right that they may not be able to sell that in a general election against Joe Biden,
COOPER: The former president won the state in the last two general elections, he actually lost the 2016 Republican Iowa caucuses to Ted Cruz.
Clearly, the state has an independent streak. Do you see Governor DeSantis having a chance?
PFANNENSTIEL: Yes. You know, I think, you know, you look at the base here in Iowa right now and there is a core group of people who are really solidly locked into Donald Trump.
But a lot of others are really looking for other options.
And so, you know, one, one influential evangelical leader put it to me this this past week, saying, you know, there's a door that's open, and so it's kind of up to Ron DeSantis and Nikki Haley and Tim Scott to seal the deal to come in and show that they can create a viable alternative to Donald Trump.
You know, if we get to January and nobody has proven that they can put together a compelling message, a good operation, you know, they may go back to the former president. But I think there's an opening and we hear that on the ground a lot as reporters here in Iowa.
People want someone who is going to look forward, who is not going to re-litigate, you know, issues of the past. And so I think, they are going to be looking at Ron DeSantis really closely this week, especially as he appears to be getting ready to launch a formal campaign.
COOPER: Brianna Pfannenstiel, appreciate it. Thank you. One of the major issues that we just talked about confronting
Republican leaders at all levels is abortion laws in the wake of the Supreme Court's decision to overturn Roe v. Wade certainly had a dramatic impact on the lives of women and the choices they make.
It has also put doctors who perform abortion in states where they've been mostly banned in a legally precarious position.
Randi Kaye has more.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Dr. Lauren Miller specializes in Maternal Fetal Medicine and high risk pregnancies. She has been treating women and performing abortions here in Boise, Idaho for the last five years.
But things are different now that the state has passed a near total abortion ban.
KAYE (on camera): What's your greatest fear?
DR. LAUREN MILLER, MATERNAL AND FETAL MEDICINE SPECIALIST: Being tried as a felon simply for saving someone's life.
KAYE (voice over): Last August, Idaho made abortion illegal with two exceptions. An abortion can still be performed if the mother's life is in danger, and in the cases of rape or incest that have been reported to a law enforcement agency.
But Dr. Miller says the law is still somewhat murky.
MILLER: You have a death exception and that is it without any other guidelines. If I don't act fast enough to save your life, prevent you from getting septic, I could be liable for civil cases. But if I act too quickly, and I'm not 100 percent certain that the patient is going to die from the complications she is sustaining, and then I can be guilty of a felony.
KAYE (on camera): What is the bar then? How do you know when it's okay to intervene?
MILLER: We don't know what that bar is and no one wants to be the guinea pig, first test case of that.
KAYE: Complicating matters even more, the new law allows family members to sue providers who perform an abortion for at least $20,000.00 if it doesn't fall within the scope of the abortion ban here.
Doctors in those cases also face suspension of their medical license, felony charges, even prison time.
How does that square with what your medical training has taught you about treating women? MILLER: That's a huge part of why I'm leaving. It is true moral
injury, right? I cannot provide the care that I had been trained to. It goes against what we're taught as physicians to protect the health of our patients.
KAYE (voice over): Idaho's governor also signed a law that says anyone helping a minor travel out-of-state to terminate a pregnancy without parental consent is guilty of a crime.
[20:20:08]
Dr. Miller has decided to move her practice to Colorado where abortion is still legal, and she is not the only one leaving.
Of the 117 doctors she informally surveyed in Idaho, 75 answered yes or maybe, when asked if they were considering leaving, at least in part because of the state's abortion laws.
Dr. Kylie Cooper who worked alongside Dr. Miller has already left Idaho and is now working in Minnesota where abortion is legal.
DR. KYLIE COOPER, MATERNAL FETAL MEDICINE SPECIALIST: We decided to leave Idaho because of the abortion bans. It was a really difficult decision.
My husband and I had many conversations about what would it actually would look like if I were charged with a felony and then went to prison.
KAYE (voice over): Dr. Cooper says she feels much safer after leaving Idaho.
DR. KYLIE COOPER: Having to watch somebody get sicker in front of your eyes and not be able to help them is just hard to even comprehend. That's not the way that I was trying to practice medicine. No one is.
We don't let people get so sick when we have all of the means and the tools to be able to help them.
KAYE (voice over): Back in Idaho, Dr. Miller says, of the nine fulltime Maternal Fetal Medicine physicians in the state, five of them will have left by the end of this year. Keep in mind, these are the doctors who deal with the most significant pregnancy complications.
Jim Souza is the chief physician executive at St. Luke's Hospital.
JIM SOUZA, CHIEF PHYSICIAN EXECUTIVE, ST. LUKE'S HOSPITAL: We are at the beginning of the collapse of an entire system of care. If the momentum doesn't shift, and we continue to pull planks out of the Jenga tower of this system of care, there is no question that there will be bad perinatal outcomes for moms and babies.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KAYE (on camera): And Anderson, I spoke with Idaho representative, Brent Crane, he was key to the negotiations in getting this new law passed and he told me that this is still a work in progress. This is not a silver bullet piece of legislation, as he put it; so still much more work to do.
But Anderson, beyond these new abortion restrictions, this summer, the Idaho legislature is going to put an end to what's called the Maternal Mortality Review Committee. That committee tracks pregnancy deaths.
So if the mortality rate and the death rate goes up as a result of women not being able to get access to safe abortion care, those numbers will no longer be made public, Anderson, because that committee will no longer be in existence.
COOPER: What's the reason they say they're doing that?
KAYE: They haven't given us a reason. I asked that representative about it and he could not answer that question. I said, why isn't this critical? And of course, you know, it's very critical to tracking the deaths in the mortality rate, and Dr. Miller, who was in our story, she's very concerned that the mortality rate is going to go up.
But again, we asked and we did not get a reason as to why this committee is going to be disbanded.
COOPER: Randi Kaye, appreciate it. Thank you.
A US Marine veteran surrenders to the New York City Police to face a manslaughter charge in the chokehold death of a homeless street performer, Jordan Neely.
I am going to talk with the attorneys for Neely's family about what they think of today's court proceedings.
Also tonight, a mom who prosecutors say was motivated by money, power, and sex, in their words and her doomsday religious beliefs, is found guilty of killing her two children and conspiring to kill her husband's ex-wife. What happens next in her case, next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:27:36]
COOPER: Today here in New York City, US Marine veteran Daniel Penny walked out of a police precinct in handcuffs to face arraignment for the chokehold death of Jordan Neely, a homeless street performer.
Penny's attorney says his client "risked his own life and safety" and "has his head held up high" as he faces second-degree manslaughter charges. Penny is out on bail tonight.
Just last week, he was recorded holding Mr. Neely in a chokehold in a subway car. Neely was pronounced dead at a hospital. Witnesses say that Mr. Neely got on the subway, shouted he was hungry, thirsty, and had little to live for. One witness says he didn't attack anyone.
His death has led to protests here in New York and has brought attention to the national issue of homelessness. Neely's family says he had mental health problems.
Just before air, I spoke with Donte Mills and Lennon Edwards, two attorneys for the Neely family.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: First of all, Mr. Mills, how is the family of Mr. Neely doing?
DONTE MILLS, ATTORNEY FOR JORDAN NEELY'S FAMILY: Not good. They lost a loved one.
And the worst part about it is, they are looked at as bad people because of the situation Jordan Neely was in. The problem is these are forgotten people in America. It is people that are dealing with mental illness.
And there's an assumption that if you have mental illness, if you're houseless, that there's something wrong with you, and that you're a bad person.
COOPER: Mr. Edwards, what was the family's reaction to Daniel Penny being charged?
LENNON EDWARDS, ATTORNEY FOR JORDAN NEELY'S FAMILY: Well, I immediately called Andre Zachery, who is Jordan's father as soon as I got a call from the DA's office. I wanted him to hear for himself that words that Daniel Penny was being charged.
I also contacted Carolyn, who is Jordan's aunt. I wanted her to hear.
It was important for them. The first thing I heard was "hallelujah." I heard shouts of joy and I heard relief. However, they all said this is just one step.
You know, I was talking with Andre Zachery and he said that it wasn't right, number one, that nothing was being done. The pain was evident in his voice.
We spent about 30 to 40 minutes trying to convince the DA on Tuesday that it was unsatisfactory for them to tell us that they had no timeline for when they were going to do this arrest.
We tried to explain to them that there was enough evidence already and I asked the DA, point blank, I said you've been doing this for 25 years. Have you ever heard of a case, have you ever had a situation where there is both victim and the killer and a video and someone goes in and they admit that they killed this person, and they get to be questioned and leave, and he couldn't identify any situation like that?
[20:30:16]
COOPER: What do you want to see happen next? I mean, they'll be a grand jury.
EDWARDS: Right. COOPER: Mr. Penny will have the opportunity if he wants to actually testify before the grand jury. He very well would be in his legal rights not to do that because anything he could say could be used against him in a trial. Do you think he will testify?
EDWARDS: Number one, I doubt that he's going to testify. His attorneys will probably save that if they at all, have him get on the stand until the trial happens. But we would like to see this man convicted for killing Jordan Neely. There's no way around it.
When you look at the degree of force that he used here, and, you know, people talk about they're afraid, and I understand that. We, you know, we ride the subways, we walk, it's not limited to the subways. It's -- you're walking the streets at night. You're -- wherever you may be, there's always an element of fear depending on the circumstance, but it's objective and it's subjective.
You have to look at, was it reasonable here for Daniel Penny to decide that he was in such great fear that he needed to kill, to extinguish, to forever erase Jordan Neely. And there's absolutely nothing to (INAUDIBLE).
COOPER: To you, is there -- are there questions about, was the -- you know, was it wrong initially for Mr. Penny to get involved? Then it seems like there's also the question of the length of time -- there's the action of putting somebody into a chokehold. That's one thing. There's also the action of holding onto that person seemingly in a chokehold for an extended length of time.
EDWARDS: Absolutely.
MILLS: So there are two components to this.
EDWARDS: Absolutely.
MILLS: First is, did he have the right to act to begin with? And what we have to look at is how reasonable was it? What was he responding to? When a lot of us think of self-defense, it's built in, you're defending yourself from something. That means you're not first to act.
Jordan Neely never touched him. He never hit him. He never lunged in his direction. In fact, Daniel Penny came from behind him and put him in a chokehold. So is that reasonable?
And then you look at the amount of time he held that chokehold, some say 15 minutes, where anywhere from six to 15 minutes. The question is, what did he think would happen if you choked someone for that long? You had to know that it would end in death.
COOPER: There were other people involved when Mr. Penny was still holding on to Mr. Neely on the ground. Do you want to see any charges against them?
EDWARDS: Absolutely. I asked the D.A. whether they identified those two people yet, and the answer was no. Now, if you're in a chokehold, from what we understand, it cuts off both air and blood to the brain. So there is no way that anyone who knows what they're doing, in using that technique could conclude that this is going to lead anywhere else. To add on top of that compound the situation by having one person grab your left arm and your right arm, it means you're completely defenseless. You are absolutely incapable of doing anything to get out of this.
I spoke to a high level jujitsu instructor, and he talked about the fact that with the hold that they had with Jordan's hips locked in place by Penny's legs and the chokehold, 99 percent of anybody who's even trained would be -- no one can get out of that. There's no escaping.
Lennon Edwards, Donte Mills, I appreciate your time tonight. Thank you.
EDWARDS: Thank you so much.
MILLS: Thank you.
COOPER: Now again, to Idaho where a jury has found a mother guilty of killing her two children and conspiring to kill the ex-wife of her fifth husband. The defense team didn't call a single witness resting its case. Minutes after the prosecution, prosecutor zeroed in on the mother's religious beliefs about zombies and claims of looming doomsday as partial motives for the killings.
Were now from Camila Bernal.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Answer, guilty. Answer, guilty.
CAMILA BERNAL, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Lori Vallow Daybell stood almost motionless as one guilty verdict after another was announced. She was found guilty in all murder conspiracy and grand theft charges.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: -- jury and court does find it's a unanimous verdict.
BERNAL (voice-over): The jury's decision closes the book on the month long trial for the Idaho mother, who prosecutors say was motivated by money, power, and sex to kill her two children and conspired to kill her husband's wife at the time. And while she decided not to testify, her lawyers argued she was innocent.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Listen, just tell people what's happening. There's people around the country praying for your children.
BERNAL (voice-over): The heroine case, which involves a tangled web of family deaths and doomsday religious beliefs began in September of 2019 when two of Vallow Daybell's children from a previous marriage, 16-year-old Tylee Ryan, and seven-year-old Joshua or J. J. were last seen.
Shortly afterwards, she married Chad Daybell, whose wife died in her sleep just weeks before Chad and Lori's wedding in Hawaii.
[20:35:07]
When authorities conducted a welfare check on J. J. in November of 2019, police say Vallow Daybell told him her son was with a friend in Arizona. They returned the next day with a search warrant, only to find the couple had vanished.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just tell us where your kids are.
BERNAL (voice-over): The couple was located in Hawaii in January of 2020. But J. J. and Tylee's whereabouts remained a mystery.
After a month's long search, law enforcement located the remains of the children at Chad Daybell's property in southeast Idaho.
ASSISTANT CHIEF GARY HAGEN, REXBURG POLICE: Chad Daybell, who resides at that residence, has also been taken into custody.
BERNAL (voice-over): Daybell and Vallow Daybell were ultimately indicted for murder in May of 2021. Chad Daybell's trial is being held separately. He's pleaded not guilty.
The couple's apocalyptic religious worldview was a focus throughout the trial. Prosecutors say they believe they were religious figures who use a system of raining people as light or dark.
CHARLES VALLOW, EX-HUSBAND OF LORI: I can't get in touch with our kids.
BERNAL (voice-over): But before the children went missing, Vallow Daybell's estranged husband, Charles, told police about her beliefs.
VALLOW: She thinks she's a resurrected being in a God.
BERNAL (voice-over): He filed for divorce, but prosecutors say Vallow Daybell's brother Alex Cox, shot and killed Charles in July of 2019. She's facing a conspiracy to commit murder charge in Arizona in connection with that killing. Cox died in December of 2019.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
BERNAL (voice-over): Hearing the verdict was emotional for many who followed this tragic case, but perhaps none more so than family.
LARRY WOODCOCK, GRANDFATHER OF VALLOW CHILDREN: J. J., I love you. Tylee, papa loves you.
BERNAL (voice-over): Camila Bernal, CNN, Los Angeles.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Well, up next, what's happening in some Russian controlled areas in Ukraine that could signal a shift in the fighting? And my conversation with the chief prosecutor of the International Criminal Court who brought war crimes charges against Vladimir Putin with an update on his investigation in Ukraine.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:41:03]
COOPER: As Ukraine appears on the precipice of a major counteroffensive against Russia, two major developments today in the war. Explosions in Russian occupied eastern Ukraine after what authorities there say were two missiles that struck an industrial area. Attacks like that are rare in that part of the country. No comment from Ukrainian officials on the explosions.
Also today, Russia admitted its Armed Forces had pulled back from around the strategic city of Bakhmut. Whereas, you know, two sides has been battling furiously for months. Russia's defense ministry, they called it a tactical regrouping. That's how they framed it.
However, the head of the paramilitary Wagner group, which has been fighting in and around Bakhmut is often at odds with Russia's top military officials told the ministry in a video to, quote, stop lying. And that, quote, this is called fleeing and not regrouping.
Russia's leader Vladimir Putin, as you may know, has been charged with war crimes by the ICC on Thursday. Russia said it would put the list of judges from the International Criminal Court and its Chief Prosecutor Karim Khan on Russia's wanted list.
I spoke with Mr. Khan on Wednesday before Russia made that announcement about where the investigation now stands.
(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)
COOPER: So it's been about two months since the ICC issued arrest warrants for Vladimir Putin and the Russian Commissioner for Children's Rights. Where do things stand now?
KARIM ASAD AHMAD KHAN, INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL COURT CHIEF PROSECUTOR: Well, the warrants have been issued and we continue our investigations. As I said to you, Anderson, when we spoke for the first time, Ukraine's a crime scene. There's many allegations we're receiving of torture, of prisons of war that had been treated terribly of sexual and gender-based violence, of attacks against civilian infrastructure.
So we're --
COOPER: And you're continuing to receive those?
KHAN: We have to. I mean, the allegations are coming in and we are verifying them and we're conducting our independent investigations and also working with Ukrainian authorities and other partners to get to the truth.
COOPER: So could potentially there be more charges down the road --
KHAN: Absolutely. COOPER: -- for other players in this?
KHAN: If the evidence reaches the threshold, that requires me to act, I won't chuck those responsibilities.
COOPER: Do you believe -- I mean, it's unlikely that Vladimir Putin is going to get -- be anywhere where he could be arrested and actually brought to the criminal court. I mean, do you actually believe that some of the actors in this, some of the people who are perpetrating these alleged crimes will actually stand in the docket at the ICC?
KHAN: I think, I do. I think that's the lesson. Nobody thought President Milosevic or Karadzic or Mladic (ph) from the Balkans would see the inside of a courtroom, or Charles Taylor when he was a very powerful president of Liberia, that he would have to answer charges.
Look at the Holocaust, not after -- not in Nuremberg. Even decades later, people were being picked up and were being subjected to national prosecutions for those types of crimes. And I think we need to show the stamina to make sure that we're not going to forget what takes place and we are going to insist that the rule of law is seen to have a real impact.
Because if we don't, if we don't show that the law is on the front lines, we're going to condemn our future generations to exactly what, you know, is being witnessed today and what people have been witnessing far too often since the Holocaust, you know, the killing fields of Cambodia and elsewhere.
And I think we can do better. And the question is, do we have the will to act on that obligation to build a better world?
COOPER: The campaigned by Russia to take Ukrainian children bring them into Russian controlled territories, into Russia itself, and essentially turn them into Russians. Do you have a sense of how large that operation is?
KHAN: Well, I think what I can say is clearly, it seems to be a policy. And it's not ad hoc. It's not random. It clearly seems to be organized as a result of a policy decision by President Putin and Madam Lvova-Belova, the Commissioner for Children. And they're not desisting. I'm not seeing any announcement they've made to say, well, here are the children, please take them away.
COOPER: They're very public about it. In fact, they are promoting it as a humanitarian gesture.
KHAN: Yes. And if it was humanitarian, give the children back and have said it very clearly.
[20:45:04]
What's the reason? What's the motivation to keep them as your nationals with your passport and teaching them a foreign language? Why not give them back to their families? Give them to a third state, as required by the Geneva Conventions and let that state return them back to their homeland. And they're not doing that. And begs the question why?
COOPER: You are actually in New York to brief the security council on this, the human rights situation in Libya. Libya is -- I mean, a lot of people have not paid it much attention to Libya since Gaddafi was killed. But, I mean, it is a broken state. The country is divided. There's a warlord in the east of the country from Benghazi for their east, battling the central government, which is supported by the -- they were recognized by the U.N. and Tripoli.
KHAN: It's completely broken. And there are these different power, epicenters of power. I went to Benghazi, I met, General Haftar.
COOPER: That's a warlord in the east.
KHAN: Absolutely. And I was criticized for that. I also went to Tripoli and I met the government representatives there. And, you know, we have an obligation to make sure that the law has meaning. And putting all the politics aside, what was very moving? I went to one place called Tahuna. It's about two hours drive from Tripoli.
And I met just survivors. One woman who broke down in tears. And she said, you know, my two children were taken from my arms. These are the people that we are trying to serve. And to show that the justice is not abstract concept in the Hague. It is a basic principle for every people around the world.
Every person around the world needs to feel that protection, or at least that their life means something. And that we care, that we give a jot about what happens to them. And I think we are failing, collectively. But this moment, this increased scrutiny for international gives some hope.
But we need to make sure, you know, not only in Ukraine, but in Libya or in, you know, for the Rohingya. We start making sure that the law is not an aspiration, it's something that people feel is there as an additional safeguard.
COOPER: Karim Khan, thank you so much. Appreciate it.
KHAN: Thank you so much.
(END VIDEO TAPE)
COOPER: Still ahead, our Senior Data Reporter Harry Enten, joins us with some surprising news on inflation.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:51:26]
COOPER: Tonight, inflation and pasta. You may have noticed the pasta prices over the last year in the U.S. and Italy as well are skyrocketing. So much so that the Italian government held emergency talks yesterday to investigate what is causing the surge prices and what could be done to fix it. CNN's Senior Data Reporter, who is also a noted pasta connoisseur, Harry Enten, is here with more. So what does the data show? How much have pasta prices gone up here and in Italy?
HARRY ENTEN, CNN SENIOR DATA REPORTER: First off, I have some props for you this evening.
COOPER: Thank you. Cut Fusilli.
ENTEN: Yes, I got that. I was going to give you a full thing --
COOPER: Wow.
ENTEN: -- but --
COOPER: That's really sad.
ENTEN: -- but it was too heavy. It was too heavy. So, but it's still one of my favorites. You could still smell, still smells pretty decent.
COOPER: Just like roux.
ENTEN: Yes. I love -- one of my favorite sauces, that impasse (ph). Look, pasta prices are way up. We're talking up 20 percent in the last year in the United States. We're talking up 17 percent over the last year in Italy. We're up to about $2 a box now in Italy. We're up to about $1.46 a box.
COOPER: Why? What's going on?
ENTEN: Yes, there are numerous reasons. Some consumer groups in Italy believe it's a price gouging because the fact is the things that actually go in the pasta aren't costing that much right now. But, in fact, the pasta that's hitting the shelves now in Italy was produced back last year when, of course, Russia was invading Ukraine and there were some real energy problems.
So it's essentially one of these things where some people say one thing, other people say other, but the fact is the delicious pasta that you and I both enjoy so much, the prices are out of control.
COOPER: There was recently some abandoned pasta found in New Jersey.
ENTEN: Yes, there was abandoned pasta. This took --
COOPER: There it is.
ENTEN: There it is. Look at this.
COOPER: An image. It's a lot of pasta.
ENTEN: That's a lot of pasta. We're talking about over 500 pounds of pasta, Anderson.
COOPER: Why was it abandoned? ENTEN: So the reason it was abandoned, there was a real mystery to this. What could be the cause of this? It turns out that they believe it was a man who was cleaning out his mother's house after she had passed away. And essentially the town they were in really didn't have like mass disposal, and they decided, you know -- he was like, you know what? This is too difficult to get rid of.
I'm just going to abandon the woods and I should know, that's about -- at least $730 worth of pasta taking new account inflation. I wish perhaps they would have sent some of it to me because the pasta costs right now are just so freaking high.
COOPER: So you probably know this. What is America's favorite pasta dish?
ENTEN: Yes. So it turns out lasagna, interestingly enough.
COOPER: Oh that -- I would have --
ENTEN: I would never have thought it was lasagna.
COOPER: Spaghetti, I would have said.
ENTEN: Yes. Pasta with, you know, a marinara --
COOPER: Sure.
ENTEN: -- with tomato sauce that's also up there.
COOPER: That's spaghetti bolognaise?
ENTEN: That's your favorite. This is what I've been told it's your favorite. It's not America's favorite, but we do love a good spaghetti in meatballs, right? So I -- that is kind of -- that's sort of bolognaise, right?
COOPER: Sure.
ENTEN: But I -- this is my favorite. Mine really is the roux, homemade tomato and basil. My girlfriend and I cook it up. We cook it up with some of this delicious pasta.
COOPER: Are we done with the data part?
ENTEN: We're done with the data part.
COOPER: OK.
ENTEN: I just love talking about pasta. I had a tie with my mother for lunch today, so that's my big thing.
COOPER: All right.
ENTEN: Anything to talk about pasta is good by (INAUDIBLE).
COOPER: Harry Enten, thank you. Coming up, a preview of the Sunday's edition of "The Whole Story"
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:58:20]
COOPER: San Francisco of the Metropolis at the center of the 1960s counterculture movement in the current tech boom is now at the forefront of the nation's homelessness, mental illness and drug addiction crises. Last month, the federal judge determined the city cannot clear homeless people from public spaces because it hasn't done enough to provide shelter.
And Mayor London Breed is backing bills in the state legislature that would make it easier to force mentally ill people into treatment. On this week's, "The Whole Story", CNN's Sara Sidner returns to the city. She once called home to find out what happened to San Francisco. Here's a preview.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SARA SIDNER, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: What is happening? What are you being asked to do now?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They make people move. I mean, I could move like to the next corner and that'd be fine, but like, give these people a break here, this apartment.
SIDNER: How did you end up on the street?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Drugs. I go to rehab, I get clean and something -- whatever it is pulls me back.
SIDNER: That's the story of a lot of people in this country. Like you're absolutely not alone in that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I love heroin. I mean, that's the straight up, honest --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He doesn't do heroin anymore, though.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, I mean it's --
SIDNER: But that -- it does change you and you will hear people saying they love it. That's why their whole life sort of is chasing it, right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right.
SIDNER: Do you think that the services that San Francisco offers people who are on the streets encourages people to come to the city and stay at the city?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Encourages homeless people?
SIDNER: Yes. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don't know.
SIDNER: You do.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don't know.
SIDNER: Justin, what makes you so certain about that?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Because I know people -- that's why I -- is just common knowledge of like, oh --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don't think --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: -- go to San Francisco. It's --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don't think it's the housing that encourages them to come.
SIDNER: No.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think it's the cheap drugs. I think it's the -- hearing about what you can buy for how much money and how it's -- you can use outside and not get arrested.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Be sure to tune in an all new episode of "The Whole Story" air Sunday, 8:00 p.m. Eastern Pacific, only on CNN. In case you missed it, you can catch the first episode of "The Whole Story" starting right now.
