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Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees
Fulton County Sheriff: Mug Shot Taken of Donald Trump; Trump Departs GA After Mug Shot, Booking On Felony Charges; Trump Becomes First Former President With A Mug Shot. Aired 8-9p ET
Aired August 24, 2023 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, "ANDERSON COOPER: 360": You know, Elie, just in terms of the legal battle head for the former president, there was a pretty major development that hasn't gotten a lot of coverage, a legal maneuver by one of the 19, Chesebro who is labeled as sort of the creator, the person behind the false elector scheme. Explain his legal maneuvering and why it has such a big impact on the case.
ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: So this is a very big deal. There are 19 defendants charged in this case.
Kenneth Chesebro, one of the defendants has demanded his speedy trial rights, and Georgia has a very strict speedy trial law that essentially says, if a defendant wants to be tried quickly, he has a right to be tried with what amounts in this case to by November of this year 2023, not 2024, the trial has to start by then. And the DA has agreed to this and the judge has agreed to this.
Now the question is, will any of the other defendants be pulled forward to have a trial that quickly? The DA, Fani Willis has said, I'm ready to try all 19 of them in late October 2023. The problem though, is she cannot force people who don't want a speedy trial, she cannot force defendants who do not want a speedy trial.
COOPER: And obviously, the former president does not want a speedy trial.
HONIG: One hundred percent. He wants the slowest trial possible, and tactically, what this is going to do is lead us to a situation where we're going to have at least two separate trials, maybe more. And the tactical advantage there is for the later trials, because you get to see the government's whole case, you get to see their witnesses take the stand, you get to see cross examination, what worked, and what didn't.
So it's a very important move by Kenneth Chesebro. It is going to affect how this all plays out.
JOHN MILLER, CNN CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT AND INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: And Donald Trump's lawyers came in right behind that saying, if this motion is granted, we want a severance.
COOPER: They want a separate --
COOPER: What's the advantage --
MILLER: And they said, if any other defendants ask for the same, they want to be separated from them as well.
HONIG: It's a good question about what's the tactical advantage for Kenneth Chesebro. It could be a couple of things.
It could be, he is hoping maybe that the DA is not fully ready to try this case. Candidly, when I was a prosecutor, we used to worry about this. Boy, what if someone really demands their speedy trial? We're not necessarily ready.
I would guess that she is ready, and maybe he just wants a speedy trial. I mean, the reason we have speedy trial protections in our Constitution is because people aren't supposed to have cases lingering over them for longer than necessary or it could be that this is a sort of coordinated tactical maneuver where it was basically decided someone go first, be the canary in the coal mine, get out there, force them to do an early trial, so the rest of us can sit back and watch.
GEOFF DUNCAN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I think this is a precursor to what we're going to see play out with all of these indicted individuals. They've all going to have different legal strategies, there's only one person trying to parlay this into running for president. Eighteen other folks are going to get train-wrecked, right? They're going to lose maybe their life savings, they're going to lose their careers. I mean, this is a horrible situation.
And every American watching this almost with no exceptions, would call this the worst day in their life. Right? Not only because they're indicted, not only because it's the fourth time in four months that they're indicted, but because 18 of your closest friends and advisers are now going to possibly lose everything because of your selfish behavior around not wanting to admit you got smoked by Joe Biden in an election.
He is at this point with not a single ounce of proof, yet, he is proud that he is in this moment, but everybody around him isn't.
VAN JONES, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I would just point out that this is vindication for a lot of people. You know, we've become so used to, it is almost a ritual now, every other week, we have to sit here and kind of watch this thing. But this is a special case because of the election workers and the people who, you know, whose lives were destroyed by these lies.
These lies had a huge -- these lies were like bombs being dropped on ordinary people, just election workers, ordinary people who were trying to do their job, who were trying to do their duty, who were being real patriots, and all of a sudden, the president of the United States starts saying these people are liars. Rudy Giuliani, one of the most famous people in the world starts calling these people crack dealers and everything you can possibly imagine. They'll never get that sense of safety back. They'll never get that sense of belonging and that --
And so, a prosecutor stood up for those people and said, you can't do that. And today, and by the way, this is a stable system working appropriately. You don't see riots, you don't see troops in the streets. You don't see mass demonstrations like you would in other countries. It is a stable system working appropriately, when people in office abuse their power and other branches stand up and say there are lines that should not be crossed.
So there is some vindication here. We shouldn't get too used to it. This is a stable system working and I'm proud of it.
ALYSSA FARAH GRIFFIN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: And well, I think that's -- sorry, I think that's very well said, Van. The only word of caution is I think is, for many people who have been waiting basically two years for some sort of justice in this process, this may not play out before the election, the variety of different cases.
And I think nobody can really take to the bank that we may know whether the former president and the GOP frontrunner is in fact a convicted felon when they have to cast their votes in the election.
COOPER: Although, if there is a speedy trial for Ken Chesebro, it is going to be interesting to see this.
I don't know, would cameras be in the courtroom for this?
HONIG: Yes. Yes. And that's really important --
COOPER: Because actually here, what the state's case is against, essentially -- I mean, against Chesebro, but essentially against the former president.
HONIG: Exactly. All of this evidence will come out. It will be public. We will be able to see it.
And by the way --
COOPER: Sorry, this is the inmate number for the former president of the United States. P -- I don't know, is that a zero or an O? P01135809. Former president of the United States has an inmate number, and it is P0113580.
HONIG: And I think it is a good reminder of what Van was saying. I think it's worth pausing here now that we've been through four of these arraignments indictments that our system has held up. There were questions. People would say, well, can we? Should we be trying a former president in a civilian criminal court? Can we sustain that? And now we've been through this four times? We were nervous. I remember the first indictment here in Manhattan. Is there going to be a January 6th-like incident? Or is there going to be a lone wolf? There's a long way to go. But I think it's a good testament to our criminal justice system, to the people who protect it, the people who work in jails, prisons, and courthouses that we've done this now, four times, and it's gone the way it should.
MILLER; We also have to remember, there is going to be a defense here. And the defense, you know is as you see people asked to be separated and severed. You know, the defense had planned to be a unified defense, which starts off with one, we were receiving in the campaign numerous reports of suspicious activity, fraud, and so on. Two, we didn't have the resources of the FBI or a large agency to investigate it, so, you know, we got people to look at it, we got all these reports in and we had all of these suspicions.
Three, we took this evidence which wasn't fully baked, but it's what we had at the time, and to try and slow down the process, we went to courts and dozens of them refused to hear us, either on the evidence, but mostly on standing, then we went to legislative bodies.
So their overarching argument is going to be, it doesn't matter if we won or lost, it doesn't matter if we were right or wrong, it doesn't even matter if we lived in a press conference. When it came to using the system, we went to the courts, we went to the legislative bodies, and we believe we did it by the book.
Now, you have a special prosecutor in Washington and a district attorney in Fulton County who say there were things that weren't true, they knew they weren't true. This was actually a calculated fraud, actually a racketeering exercise, but the only -- I've been involved in in a million investigations as a reporter, and as an investigator, and an analyst in police departments and the FBI, you never really know the full story till you hear it all in court, and both sides put all their evidence out on the table, even if you think you do.
JONES: I think that's true. I just -- I do want to point out that the two things can be true at the same time. There are things that are unconventional that Trump did, but they're not unlawful. There are things that he did that were unlawful.
Now, it is unconventional for a candidate to take it as far as he did, to play out all of these extra innings. The Constitution allows for all these extra innings pass the vote with the Electoral College and the state legislatures, and all of that sort of stuff.
It is unconventional for somebody to just keep fighting. You're not supposed to do that. And usually, a hundred years, you just -- that's not unlawful.
It's not unlawful to play in the extra innings. It's unlawful to cheat in the extra innings and that's what he did.
DAVID URBAN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I was just going to -- the question here, I think, as we watch this play out, is what impact is this going to have politically on the primary? Because we're unlikely to see a trial before that. Maybe we do, maybe we don't. But is it going to have any impact further than tonight and tomorrow? Is it going to play out -- are voters going to rethink -- are primary voters going to rethink their vote when they go to the caucuses in Iowa, when they go to the polls in New Hampshire, when they vote in South Carolina?
I mean, that's to be determined yet. And, you know, we still have got a long way to go here. Fani Willis and others have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he did all of these things.
So the question becomes, what political impact does this have? Does it have -- if Trump gets -- if he gets convicted after the convention, what happens? You know, there are so many different iterations. Or if he's going to the convention, if somebody mount a floor fight, a challenge on the floor of the convention like Ted Cruz is going to do in 2016 and say, we're going to wrestle this away from you. We don't think a president should be doing this.
There is going to be splinter group of the party that tries to do that. I mean, that's -- I think, that's -- for Republicans, you know, last night, they asked who's going to vote for the president -- you know, who would vote for Trump? Everybody shot their hands up. We'll see if, you know, there's more scenes like this. If there's some court testimony and others.
COOPER: I would also point out, we're told that the former president may be speaking before getting on his plane at the airport. If you remember one in the last -- I can't remember which one it was, he did speak briefly. We're not going to carry that live. We will listen to it. Anything that's newsworthy that he says, we will -- we'll bring that bring that to you.
GRIFFIN: Well, and keep in mind to this point, the former president's poll numbers have only gone up with his indictments on at least as far as the primary goes. Now, I think the big open question, Georgia is unique because there would likely be cameras in the courtroom so the public could see the case play out and actually know what the facts are, what the arguments are. That is likely not the case in any of the two DOJ investigations.
So I think the idea of public sentiment majorly changing primarily hinges around this Georgia case, but we don't know the timing on it, and again, it could be after a convention.
DUNCAN: I think this continues to make the political math even tougher, right? The political math in the general, right, I hate to keep picking on the guy because I've done it for a while now, but this creates another Herschel Walker moment, right, where you create this primary candidate that is an impossible win in the general.
There is not a single person that was with Donald Trump in 2016, turned their nose up to him in 2020, walked away from him that is looking at this video of the fourth indictment, 91 total indictments and saying, you know what, I was wrong about that guy. I'm going to come back into the folder and I'm going to vote for him. I'm going to write him a check and support him.
And the guy that's winning today is Joe Biden. He's probably on the beach out west or somewhere out west, eating an ice cream cone again today. Give him one press conference that's eight words long.
URBAN: He doesn't know where he is.
COOPER: Just in terms of the actual cases. What is the next -- I mean, what is next on the calendar?
MILLER: Well, here you have a September 5th, I think arraignment where you get all of these people back in the Fulton County courthouse, and then they start to go through motions.
HONIG: Yes, so two big motions. There's the motion that we talked about, about the speedy trial date. How many people are going to go to trial in this October-November 2023 timeframe.
COOPER: By the way, is that a set date now? I mean, October --
HONIG: The judge has said, yes, I will be trying at least Kenneth Chesebro on October 23, 2023.
COOPER: I have got to write this on my calendar.
HONIG: Yes, no, wait, there is more though.
COOPER: I'm going to clear my calendar that day.
HONIG: The other big motion that is pending right now is two of the defendants currently, Mark Meadows and Jeffrey Clark are trying to get their case pulled out of state court and moved over to federal court.
Now they both made this emergency motion saying I shouldn't have to surrender. The judge predictably denied that; however, the motions themselves are still pending.
COOPER: On the right, you can see they are the private terminal at the airport already. Go ahead.
HONIG: So those motions are pending. The judge is going to hear Mark Meadows' motion next week on the 28th, and then Jeffrey Clark's motion a couple of weeks after that, and Donald Trump is very likely, he is probably sitting back to see how those go, but he is going to make the same motion.
And the gist of the motion here is, if you can show that the charges relate to your official duties as a Federal officer, big question mark, whether they can make that showing, but if you can make that showing, then you get your case pulled out of state court over into federal court, so there are a lot of moving parts here.
GRIFFIN: And to David's point about this whole idea of, so say we come up to the convention this coming summer, he gets the nomination or there is some kind of effort for brokered convention on the floor. You know, I was there in 2015 when Ted Cruz and folks tried to do that. It is an incredibly uphill battle.
It is not something that is easy. It's not something you can do quickly and with somebody with a sky high of approval ratings with the base of the party, who is doing the delegate math now and who has spent years investing in that, there is virtually no scenario.
URBAN: I'm sure Brian, Jack and the rest of the team are -- they've got delegate binders, they will know the person who is voting for Trump on the floor.
DUNCAN: I can't help but think how much easier this could have been, right? If Donald Trump would have stood up and said I think this election was rigged and he watched us in Georgia go through recount after recount after recount, and finally got to that moment and said you know what, I'll come back and win this again. You've done your job, and I'm going to move on.
We wouldn't have had January 6th. We wouldn't have completely soiled the Republican brand for maybe decades. We wouldn't have we wouldn't have been at this point here. People's lives wouldn't have been train- wrecked to the point that they are.
URBAN: And what his approval rating would be?
GRIFFIN: Well, and by the way, a bunch of us were advising him in those final days, go around the country and tout your accomplishments and get vaccines in the arms of as many Americans as you can, take credit for ending the pandemic, and getting people back to work and he would be in a much better position to win a general election right now.
HONIG: Just intersecting with the political and legal here, because I get asked this every day, I think it's worth stressing, none of this will disqualify Donald Trump from running for president. You can run for president while you're indicted. You can run for president if you've been convicted. Theoretically, you can run for president from prison.
And the other thing that I think is sometimes surprising to people is if you get convicted of a felony in this country, you can in many states lose your right to vote, lose your right to sit on a jury, you definitely lose your right to possess a firearm. That's a federal crime. But yes, you can still run for president. People say, how can that be? It's just a feature of our Constitution.
DUNCAN: Getting 91 indictments should disqualify you for running as a Republican for president.
COOPER: In terms of the legal battles he is facing, I mean, how much of a person's time is eaten up, just dealing with all this stuff?
HONIG: So a couple of things, while you are on trial in a criminal case you have to physically be there, so whichever trial goes first, whether it's in Florida, DC, New York, or Georgia, Donald Trump has to be there.
And that's in contrast, we saw the civil trial involving E. Jean Carroll a few months ago. He no-showed at that. You're allowed to no show, not a great strategy, but he will have to physically be in the courtroom.
COOPER: Why does he have to physically be there?
HONIG: It's just a rule of criminal procedure. It has to do with the defendant's constitutional rights to be present to confront the witnesses against him, to present his own defense. So he has to physically -- this will take him off --
COOPER: Can somebody waive those rights? Can somebody waive those rights? He is willing to waive that right?
HONIG: Generally no. Only in extreme circumstances, but I've never seen --
COOPER: Like running for president of the United States?
HONIG: I mean, well, listen. No, I mean, that would actually be an interesting argument.
COOPER: It seems to be the most extreme circumstance I've seen in my life.
HONIG: I will say, though, if I was his lawyer, I would beg him not to do that because you have a jury who is deciding your liberty, and they do not take it as a sign of respect, if you don't feel the obligation to at least show up.
The other thing is, preparing for a criminal trial, as a defendant ordinarily is a full time job. You are working around the clock with your lawyers. You have a constitutional right to assist in your own defense. You are helping your lawyers understand the documents, identify the witnesses.
Now, it's up to Donald Trump and his lawyers how much of that they want to do and how they want to split that up. But usually, this is all consuming for one case, never mind four.
JONES: I just want to point out that, again, people that go to the equal justice point. Regular people's lives are destroyed just by the charge, just by the charge, just the mere fact of -- oh here we go.
DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: This is a very sad day for America. This never happened. We challenged an election --
COOPER: Keep going, Van. So we're just going to be monitoring his remarks and bring them to you if there needs to --
JONES: You can begin to understand how some people, they don't have a lot of exposure to the system. Other people because of the code they live in, and the circumstances of their life, they are exposed to it a lot.
Just when the handcuffs go on, you're going to be out of pocket twenty, thirty, fifty thousand dollars that you do not have, or you're going to have to have a public defender who's going to have thirty, fifty a hundred other people to try to help you.
You're going to -- you're going to do a GoFundMe. You're going to -- you're just trying to keep your apartment, just trying to keep your job. Innocent or guilty, your life is destroyed by the charge and this is a system that people go up against.
And so if people are thinking to themselves, geez, man, Donald Trump in his 19 friends are going to go through all this sort of stuff. Jake Tapper interviewed somebody that says, each one of them is going to spend a million dollars -- a million dollars --
DUNCAN: That they don't have.
JONES: That they don't have. You know, this is terrible. Well, if you think it's terrible for those 19 people and Donald Trump, think about the people who right now are in that jail, who where there is apparently lice infestation and bad ventilation, and they don't have the $50,000.00 or $20,000.00 to get themselves out.
This is why both political parties have come together to try to fix this system.
And if you don't like what you're seeing, because you're a Republican and think it is not fair or if you love what you're seeing because it's happening to Donald Trump, when it has happened to ordinary people and regular people, this is not the best way to get to the right outcomes that we want for people innocent or guilty.
GRIFFIN: And Van, you and I have talked about how Donald Trump just doesn't see things the way normal people do. Oftentimes, you would think a fourth arraignment, you know, flying down to Georgia, getting arrested getting a mug shot for the first time would kind of maybe be a sobering moment.
But again, I make this parallel to when he had COVID and he went to Walter Reed and he wanted to do that drive by, he actually wanted to wear a Superman shirt and he wanted to be seen even though that meant exposing Secret Service agents, advance teams, potentially press, his doctors. But he saw it as an opportunity.
He knew the media was focused on him. If he was bleeding in the news, to him that was a win even, if it was for bad reasons. Again, he chose 7:30. He chose primetime to turn himself in, because the spectacle of it all, he sees is a win, even if it's for something horrible like committing crimes.
COOPER: And by the way, he commented on the tarmac, he continued to make dishonest claims about the election. We're not going to play it, it's not worth hearing. You've heard them all before. Not -- many of the claims just not true.
So he is now back on the plane, ready to take off.
And then on this case, in particular, if they have to go to -- they will be going to trial in October, apparently, at least with Ken Chesebro, do you believe that Fani Willis is ready for -- I mean, is the prosecutor ready for that?
HONIG: You are supposed to always be ready as a prosecutor. I mean, I was trained if a judge said, when do you want to go to trial? I would say tomorrow on all of them and that is what she said.
She took a long time. One of the criticisms, I think, valid criticisms is that this took two-and-a-half years for Fani Willis to investigate and bring the charge and I have to presume, if she is competent, and all indications are she is competent, that she is ready to go because of just this scenario.
DUNCAN: One thing that I learned from your comments a second ago was how much time I didn't realize that he had to be in the courts for all these different hearings, so hanging out with all of these lawyers, I learned so much more including, Van, I found out you were a lawyer, too.
How do you campaign, right? Like I mean, in your best estimate, is that like, do you have 30 extra minutes a day?
HONIG: So to be clear, you have to be there for your trial, some of the hearings, your arraignment, you have to be there, but some of the intermediate hearings that are just about the evidence, and the motions, that, the defendant can waive, can give up his physical appearance.
COOPER: The former president is on the plane waiting to take off. Let's go back to Kaitlan Collins outside the jail.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR AND CHIEF CORRESPONDENT: Thanks, Anderson.
Yes, we've been watching as the few people that were here behind us, the Trump supporters, a few protesters has been dying down ever since former president left. He was here very briefly on the ground.
I'm joined again by Sara Murray, but also the former mayor of Atlanta, Keisha Lance Bottoms. Thank you for being here.
I mean, just -- what is it like to see the poor president come to the Fulton County Jail and be arrested, have his mugshot taken, and have this booking sheet?
KEISHA LANCE BOTTOMS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: This is surreal, and I don't think that there's anybody who loves our democracy that is happy about this day. Nobody wants to see a former president booked into a jail. But that being said, I think it's a testament to the fact that everybody is being treated equally. If you commit a crime in this state, then you will be held accountable.
I used to sit as a magistrate judge inside of that jail, and it's all that you expect a county jail to be and more. It's not a pleasant place, whether you're there for five minutes or months, I'm sure. So it doesn't give me any joy to see the president of the United States, booked into -- or a former president of the United States, booked into the Fulton County Jail.
But for the sake of Ruby Freeman, Shaye Moss, and so many others, who have just been subjected to all that has happened and has transpired, I think this is a testament to the fact that our justice system is blind.
COLLINS: And of course, you're referring to the election workers who were targeted, not just by the former president, but by so many members of his inner circle at the time, people who have also, you know, walked into the Fulton County jail to be booked and arrested.
What's that like, do you think for those election workers who were just doing, you know, their civic duty when they were harassed and bullied and intimidated and threatened?
BOTTOMS: Well, I had an opportunity to meet them when they were honored at the White House by President Biden, and they really are a salt of the earth women, very warm spirits and you know, they seem to be very humble in watching their testimony, not attention that they wanted at all.
I would assume that this has to give them some comfort, but I don't think that there's anything that will erase the pain and trauma that they were subjected to. But I do hope that the fact that the district attorney of this county has seen fit to remember what happened to them and to not push it aside because of who these people are, hopefully, that gives them some comfort.
COLLINS: Can I just -- you're mayor of the city, you've been a longtime resident of the city. When Trump posts something like what he did earlier, going after, talking about the crime rate here, talking about -- he said. Why is there so much murder in Atlanta? Why is there so much violent crime, people are afraid to go outside to buy a loaf of bread and then just all of these other wild claims, essentially saying, Fani Willis, the district attorney should not be prosecuting him given that. I mean, what's your response when you hear something like that?
BOTTOMS: Fani Willis was elected district attorney to do just what she is doing today, and it is not just Donald Trump and his entourage that Fani prosecutes every single day. There is a big a gang trial going on right now in the Fulton County courthouse. A very popular rapper, Young Thug and many popular rappers. So, she is not discriminating.
If she sees that a crime or thinks that a crime has been committed, then she is going to pursue a prosecution and the thing that people have to remember, she is not an administrator. She's not a pencil paper pusher. Fani Willis worked in the district attorney's office as a senior district attorney trying some of the most notorious cases in our county. So, she knows what she's doing.
I've worked with Fani for many years. As young attorneys, we started out together at the Kendall Law Firm, very young attorneys. We worked together as prosecutors in the solicitor's office.
So she has grown into this role, and she is prepared for this and at the point that Fani sought an indictment, I thought that there was trouble for the former president of the United States because I didn't --
COLLINS: Why did you think that?
BOTTOMS: I knew she wouldn't pursue an indictment if she didn't think that there was something there.
SARA MURRAY, CNN POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: How do you -- I'm just curious -- how do you think she endures the sort of level of vitriol and attacks not just from the former president who has obviously spoken a lot publicly about her, but also his supporters? I mean, we know that their office has just been inundated --
BOTTOMS: Well, Fani was built for this. Fani was raised primarily by a single father, that she -- I've heard her joke that his idea of Daughter Daddy time was for her to go and work on files and help him with his cases.
And I think the harder they try and intimidate her, the more they try and intimidate her, I think the more that she's going to dig in, she's not going to be easily intimidated.
She has dealt with bigger and badder, for sure. She prosecutes murderers and rapists, and really the worst of those amongst us.
So this effort to intimidate her, she is not going to get bluster. When you see her looking very stoic in front of the camera, that's not an act.
COLLINS: What about the concerns though, to officials like her, and I should just note what we're watching here, this is Trump's plane on the tarmac, busiest airport in the world, waiting to take off and it doesn't get the priority it used to when he was Air Force One and they would clear the tarmac for him to take off. We are watching him.
But speaking of Fani Willis and given you know her. I mean, what Sara is referencing is not just coming from Trump and his inner circle, it is what he says spreads to other people. I mean, we saw these supporters out here earlier, who when they saw security lining up were chanting, "lock her up" and saying Fani Willis' name.
BOTTOMS: When I pulled up, they thought that I was Fani, and they started chanting it at me as well, and just walking through the crowd, there was a lot of hatred out here, a lot of very vitriol --
COLLINS: They thought you were Fani Willis.
BOTTOMS: They thought that I was Fani Willis. Imagine that.
A lot of hatred and really bad energy out here. But you know, this is when you sign up for public service, you don't get to pick and choose your good days and your bad days.
I have full confidence in Sheriff Labat. Sheriff Labat was actually the Corrections chief for Atlanta when I was mayor. So I know them both very well. I saw Sheriff Labat just yesterday, he is doing great.
You know, there are tough days that come with these jobs. I don't think that anybody wants to be subjected to threats, but that being said, it's part of the job. And if we give in to that, then who are we as a country that people don't serve because they fear for their lives? I mean, that's a threat to our democracy in and of itself.
COLLINS: What do you make of -- it is not even just the threat level of this, it is the political level aspect of it, too. I mean, you know, this, obviously, when you were working at the White House, and this is something that they are using to their advantage to fundraise off of.
I mean, Trump before this happened said, I just need one more indictment, and then I'll have the nomination locked up.
BOTTOMS: I think it's really unfortunate. As I served as mayor, I've worked with Governor Kemp. I know that didn't always get the attention. When we didn't get along, that got the attention, but we work very closely together. I worked very closely with many Republican leaders and that is what people elect us to do. They want us to put aside our political differences to be able to get things done.
So when I see what's happening, right now, during this election cycle in in this Republican primary season, it concerns me for our democracy, quite frankly, that we are giving in to the worst of who we are, in many ways.
MURRAY: And I wonder if this is -- you know, this kind of indictment and the sweeping nature that it obviously goes beyond people who directly threatened Ruby Freeman and Shaye Moss. I mean, I wonder if the district attorney is trying to send a broader message about what happens if you try to disenfranchise thousands and thousands of voters and particularly minority voters.
BOTTOMS: And I think that's extremely important. We will have many more elections. There will be many more close elections.
I've won the mayor's race by less than a thousand votes. I lost a very close race once before, my first time that I ran for office, and that's what happens. That's what should happen when you run for office, you win some, you lose some.
But I do think it's important that we send the message very loud and clear that you will not stand for this in the state of Georgia, that if you try and intimidate election officials, if you try and intimidate people who are working the polls, that there will be a price to pay.
COLLINS: I mean, before Trump boarded the steps to the plane that he's on now, what he said to reporters which we didn't air live, but what he said was he's still claiming -- he said, he had every right to challenge the election, but it obviously went so much further than that.
It wasn't just, as even his own attorney general has pointed out, you know trying to file court cases and whatnot, he went so much further than that, when it came to trying to directly overturn it, not just dispute it.
BOTTOMS: You do have a right to challenge in the election. They're a process to challenging in an election. But what you don't have a right to do is to intimidate poll workers. You don't have a right to try and unlawfully influence the Secretary of State. There are so many things that they did where they crossed the line.
And as attorneys, you have a responsibility to advise your client not to do illegal things, even if your client didn't know what they're doing --
COLLINS: And a lot of people were telling them that.
BOTTOMS: Well, absolutely. And certainly, it's unfortunate, I mean, I'm an attorney. It's unfortunate to see that the attorneys have even gotten caught up in this. You don't have the right to do illegal things on behalf of your client.
So I am not celebrating today. There's nothing to be -- nothing to celebrate about today. But it is reassuring to know that no matter who you are, if you break the law, if you try and intimidate people and try and deny people their votes, that their votes be counted, that there will be a penalty to be paid.
COLLINS: And one thing Sara and I have been talking about and reporting all throughout the day is about Trump's new attorney that he met when he got here, just an hour ago, Steven Sadow. I mean, I know you know him and you know of him. He's renowned criminal defense attorney here. But given what you know about him, given what you know about Fani Willis, I mean, do you think she has an airtight case here?
BOTTOMS: Well, I'll put Fani up against anybody on any given day. I've seen Steve Sadow win some. I've seen him lose some. I wouldn't be surprised if there's not an attempt to negotiate a plea. He's represented a lot of high profile people, obviously, but he does not have a flawless record.
And Fani is a darn good attorney. So if Fani is putting this case up, I think that everybody should bring their A game to the table.
COLLINS: How do you think she's watching all of this? I mean, do you think she just goes about her normal business? The city kind of is shut down for the last few hours, waiting for his arrival and having him come here?
BOTTOMS: Knowing Fani Willis as I do, she's not losing an ounce of sleep over this. And you have to remember, even while all of this is going on, I mentioned the YSL trial with young thug that's going on. There are other trials that are happening in the Fulton County Courthouse. There are other cases that her staff is preparing to try. So business is continuing in the courthouse, but I don't think that Fani is losing any sleep over this one.
MURRAY: I imagine she's also trying to make sure that the rest of the co-defendants have actually turned themselves in. I mean, 18 other co- defendants say -- have lost track of how many, and I think there were just a couple stragglers who had not yet been arrested and processed through the jail. And I think that most of them, if not all of them, had had these bond agreements.
COLLINS: And one thing they've all had also is a mugshot. And I should note, we're waiting. We do have Trump's mugshot. We believe we're waiting on it to be able to post that. But, I mean, he is just -- without the doubt of the motorcade and what you're seeing now, he's flying off in a massive plane. I mean, he is treated like most other criminal defendants in the sense of what actually happened inside that jail.
BOTTOMS: Well, yes and no. Most other criminal defendants wouldn't be out that quickly. Most defendants would come in, and it would take hours to process them. I think it's going to be interesting to watch what happens with Harrison Floyd, who showed up without posting a bond today.
He very likely will be there at least until tomorrow morning, because he will need to have a first appearance hearing. I don't know if he's out or if the district attorney did something to process him out quickly, but under normal circumstances, you show up. Usually, you don't have a bond. You have to wait overnight in the Fulton County Jail.
You're given a bond the next day after your first appearance hearing. Those are the cases or that's what I used to preside over when I would sit out here as a judge. And then hopefully, you are granted a bond if you are a defendant, and then you are processed out. But it usually takes several hours, if not a day or so, to get a defendant process out.
COLLINS: And Mark Meadows is one of -- I mean, Trump's former chief of staff who surrendered -- he was trying to push this. He has a hearing on Monday. He's trying to get it moved from state court to federal court, and he was essentially arguing, I shouldn't have to meet that deadline from tomorrow.
And they pushed back on that saying, you know, Fani Willis' argument when she responded was, well, I've already given you two weeks as a courtesy thing. That's more than what a typical defendant would get. BOTTOMS: Well, and that's accurate. So for those who have not turned themselves in, I don't think they'd want to wait and find out what's going to happen if they don't turn themselves in. I can tell you what's going to happen.
COLLINS: What happens if they don't turn themselves?
BOTTOMS: Sheriff Labat is going to be out looking for them with a warrant for their arrest. So I think that if they want to get in and out of here quickly and the last thing you want to do as a defendant is to get booked into the Fulton County Jail on a Friday. Because --
COLLINS: (Inaudible) until Monday?
MURRAY: Stuck over the weekend?
BOTTOMS: You're there until Monday, and jails get really crowded over the weekend. And when I used to represent clients, and even when I prosecuted, people would say, please don't send me over to Rice Street. It's not somewhere that you necessarily want to be if you don't have to be here.
When I would sit here presiding over cases, and sometimes I would have to stay in the jail overnight to sign warrants, I literally wanted to shed my clothes when I got into my garage.
COLLINS: Stop that.
BOTTOMS: -- because that's a -- I mean, that's a jail. It's not supposed to be the St. Regis. It's not supposed to be a pleasant place, but it smells like a jail. It looks and feels like a jail.
MURRAY: It's striking how people keep mentioning the smell --
COLLINS: The smell. What -- I mean --
MURRAY: -- of the jail.
COLLINS: -- can you -- I mean, I might hate to ask this, but can you describe the smell? Because it is something every single person we've talked to who's been inside that jail has mentioned the smell.
BOTTOMS: Yes. I -- the -- conjuring up the smell, in my mind, is not very pleasant. It's a stench. It's a combination of stale food and body odor, and of course, it's a jail, so they're not open windows and stagnant air. And even where I worked in the jail, I was in a courtroom, a more pleasant area of the jail, but you can smell it as soon as you walk into the waiting room.
COLLINS: What did Trump see when he went in there today?
BOTTOMS: What he likely saw if he went in the normal way that clients would go in, you come in, and there's a desk at the front. It's been a few years since I've been in there, but there's a desk at the front and then you go through a more secure area behind. There was, like, bulletproof glass there, and that's when you start going through the doors that lock behind you.
And so that's likely what he saw. If they took him through the waiting area, I'm assuming that the waiting area was clear today. If he went through the front door, he went through the front door. It's usually full of people there waiting on someone to come out or hoping to get information. And then you can go through a series of locked doors into the room where your mugshots are taken.
COLLINS: And we know he did take a mugshot. We had that confirmed from the sheriff that you mentioned earlier. Of course, the questions that are going to come as soon as this plane takes off with the former president on board is what's the timeline of this looks like.
And we've seen a flurry, a head spinning amount of activity in that today in the sense of one of the co-defendants was asking to have a speedy trial. The judge granted that, and they set a date of October 23. I mean, is that logistically possible?
BOTTOMS: I think it's logistically possible. It's going to be interesting to see the pull on the resources because, as I mentioned, you've got this YSL trial going on, and it's a multi -- it has been a --
COLLINS: I'm going to interrupt you, actually, just for a moment, because we did get this mugshot of the former president of the United States, and we're going to show it to our audience now. This is just a striking image to see the former president of the United States, who was just booked in the Fulton County Jail behind us.
Questions remained even within his team as of this morning, whether or not this photo would ever actually exist. But there you see it with the watermarks, just like every other co-defendant that has come before him. I mean, the former chief of staff, the former mayor of New York City, Rudy Giuliani. And now to see the mugshot of the former president of the United States.
BOTTOMS: Yes, when I look at that, I can't help but wonder if he practiced that pose. That's a very interesting look that he has there.
It makes me sad. It makes me sad to see a former president with a mugshot. As I mentioned earlier, I don't -- I take no joy in seeing him booked into the Fulton County Jail. It makes me sad that a former president has conducted himself in such a way that it's not one indictment, not two, not three, but four different jurisdictions, and to now be booked into the Fulton County Jail. And included in that indictment is the harassment and sheer torture of two women who did nothing but sign up to go and help people vote in their communities.
COLLINS: Jake, I mean, to see that image, Trump and his campaign once created a mugshot to use for fundraising material. Now there is actually a mugshot of the former president of the United States.
JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Yes, it is a stark and sad image there. It is on the left side of your screen. Fulton County Jail inmate number P01135809, otherwise known as 45th president of the United States, Donald John Trump. We see on the right side of the screen his Boeing 757 about to take off from Hartsfield-Jackson International Airport in Atlanta, Georgia, on its way back to Newark, New Jersey.
Dana Bash, no doubt the Trump campaign and his supporters will try to make sport and make light of the image on the left side of your screen. But the truth is, the allegations and the conduct described in the indictment, whether or not he is found guilty, whether or not you think it is a strong case, the allegations and the conduct are factually accurate and tragic. And that image is what I think of when I think of those -- that conduct.
DANA BASH, CNN ANCHOR, INSIDE POLITICS: And that is now an image that will be cemented in history. I mean, how many images are there of Donald Trump? He is maybe the most famous person on the planet, but this particular photo with the Fulton County, you can tell me exactly what this is emblazoned on the corner there, that is going to be iconic and infamous, is probably a better way to say it.
And I think that you said that maybe they'll make light of it -- maybe some people will make light of it, but they are going to appropriate it. They are going to embrace it, and they are going to use it as the ultimate example of his entire campaign, which is they're out to get me.
BASH: It doesn't make it right. It doesn't make it accurate. It just makes it a very, very potent political tool and weapon that he very much intends to use.
TAPPER: When -- go ahead.
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: We've already seen Trump's allies, you know, Marjorie Taylor Greene making -- you know, they're making their own fake mugshots, using it as a badge of honor. But, I mean, I think about the whole pattern of, you know, facts that we're talking about here, which is a former president office holder, top office holder in this country, trying to hold on to power, trying to do it by any means necessary, doing so in a way that led to multiple criminal charges in multiple jurisdictions.
Now that same person is running for president again, and his supporters are treating his arrest as a badge of honor. That's not a good fact pattern, frankly --
PHILLIPS: -- for the United States of America. And it is incredibly sad for this country that we have to go down this road. The unfortunate thing is that, you know, other countries go down this road, too. This is just, you know, our turn to do it.
And we've avoided this particular moment because until Trump, there has been a tradition of handing over power when you lose peacefully and just doing it and showing up at the White House with the guy coming after you and shaking hands and sitting down and having a tea, and Trump's refusal to do that. That tradition that's not bound in law, but is part of our tradition, is what has led us to this.
TAPPER: And we should point out there have been numerous disputed elections in the history of this country.
TAPPER: In 1876, between Rutherford B. Hayes and Samuel Tilden. In 2000, between Al Gore, George W. Bush. Jamie Gangel on that note --
PHILLIPS: None have ever gotten to this.
TAPPER: No, no, that's my point. I'm agreeing with you. Ultimately, they had their day in court. They lost and --
PHILLIPS: They conceded.
TAPPER: -- they conceded defeat. On that note, I want to -- Donald Trump on the tarmac on his way home this evening, we did not bring you those comments, but just to tell you one of the things he said, and I want to get your reaction, Jamie Gangel, he said, "It's a very sad day for America."
And then he went on to say, "We challenged an election. You should be able to challenge an election".
And then later in his comments, he said, "We did nothing wrong at all. We have every right, every single right to challenge an election that we think is dishonest, that we think is very dishonest". And that's accurate. He has every right to challenge an election. And, in fact, Jamie Gangel, as you know, he exercised those rights and then he went beyond it.
JAMIE GANGEL, CNN SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT: Right. He exercised them and he lost over and over again. 61 out of 62 court cases in battleground states. The Supreme Court declined to hear his case twice. That's a court where he appointed.
TAPPER: He had some friends from the court.
GANGEL: A lot of justices.
GANGEL: There were three recounts in Georgia. And let's just remember his own attorney general Bill Barr on December 1 said that there was no widespread fraud. Chris Krebs, who is in charge of election security, was a Republican, was fired because he said it was the most secure election ever. White House Counsel, Republican after Republican.
I just want to say about his election denial again today, this is why former Congresswoman Liz Cheney and many other Republicans who have -- there weren't so many who stood up to him, but those who did have said he remains a clear and present danger. When he says this over and over again, it is a campaign slogan, but it also could lead to violence.
TAPPER: And one of the things that I think it's important for us to remember is so many of the witnesses in this indictment in the Fulton County, Georgia Superior Court, not to mention before the January 6 committee and on and on, are not just Republicans, not just conservative Republicans. They are Trump supporting conservative Republicans like Bill Barr --
TAPPER: -- like the former White House Counsel Pat Cipollone. You live in Georgia. I don't think that Governor Kemp or Lieutenant Governor Duncan or Secretary of State Raffensperger, I don't think there's a chance in hell that if there had been evidence of fraud and otherwise that would have swung the election to Donald Trump, that they wouldn't have embraced it and stood by Donald Trump, every single one of them.
MICHAEL MOORE, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: I think you're right. But I do -- we talked about this earlier, you do remember that they did change the election laws in 2021 after the 2020 election, under the guise that there were some irregularities and things they needed to fix it dealt with.
MOORE: Changing places for drop boxes, changing who could deal with absentee ballots. So they tried to play off of it and capitalize, I think, on this idea, and now suddenly it appears they've grown a conscience. I mean this -- f you think about this indictment and I kind of step back sometimes from the case because I do think that lawyers need to think about how to lose it.
And even as this coming motion is before us on Monday and the federal judge will hear this, 154 of the 157 overt acts that are alleged in this indictment occurred while he was a sitting president of the United States.
TAPPER: Sitting president of the United States.
MOORE: 154 of 157.
TAPPER: That's staggering. So everything except for that last document that he sent in September 2021.
MOORE: And those are the two counts that occurred after he was president. So when you think about the enormity of the decision that this federal judge has to make about do we move this case, is this a federal executive? Clearly, he is. Do we move it to federal court, or do we let it stay in the state court?
If this is not a case that merits some consideration about transfer back to federal court, I don't know that there ever would be one.
PHILLIPS: And he's already facing charges at the federal level on similar --
MOORE: That's right.
PHILLIPS: -- kind of maybe, not exactly.
TAPPER: So let me ask you a question, Andy McCabe, you were acting FBI director, you were deputy FBI director. You dealt with Donald Trump when he was president as a law enforcement official. Did you -- look at that image on the screen right now -- did it ever occur to you that that would happen? A mugshot of Donald Trump?
ANDREW MCCABE, CNN SENIOR LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Of course not, right? Of course not. And my interactions with Donald Trump, my personal interactions with him, were very early on in his administration. I certainly didn't see into the future as to where we would end up. But I think the point that you make on the consideration of removal, there is no question that could be a very effective legal strategy.
It is an obvious and momentous thing for any of these similarly situated defendants to do. But I still think it's going to be very hard here. And I totally respect your --
MCCABE: -- tallying of the counts, but ultimately, to make the case that these acts were committed within the scope of their authority, they have to have been authorized by federal law. He had to have been acting under the authorization of some federal authority. And the federal law gives the president of the United States zero role in the calculation of state election results. And that's ultimately what they were all doing.
MOORE: But it does allow the president of the United States, as the chief law enforcement officer in the nation, to inquire about possible election in federal elections.
MCCABE: And inquire he did.
MOORE: And so when I think about was he in fact a federal executive, I try to ask, at what point is he not the president of the United States?
MOORE: He can't ride his bicycle and not be president. He can't take a -- if he has to have surgery for a minute, they have to bring somebody else. And he's president 100 percent of every day.
TAPPER: Yes. BASH: You know, going back to where you live and where you practice in Georgia, I'm also reminded of some of the things that we learned during the January 6 hearings --
BASH: -- and since in other court cases in Georgia about what went on in and around the president's -- the then-president's circle. I mean, the intimidation of those two poll workers.
BASH: The lies about the things that they were saying, that they were stealing votes. Never mind this slate of fake electors, which is the subject of several of these counts, and questions about whether that move and the work that these characters did, presumably on behalf of the then-president to try to steal the Georgia election from Joe Biden, which is effectively, I mean, the opposite of what Donald Trump says happened.
MOORE: But this transfer motion will be not about is there even probable cause that the indictment is correct or that there's enough evidence to move forward. This is just is there a plausible claim that he was serving in his federal capacity? So it's a low standard to me.
TAPPER: Joining me now, our Senior Legal Affairs Correspondent Paula Reid, who is outside the Fulton County Jail. And Paula, we just saw Donald Trump leave after being arrested and booked. When is he next expected back in Atlanta, Georgia?
PAULA REID, CNN SENIOR LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jake, it's going to be a busy next month in this case because the next step here is arraignment. Remember, in his federal cases, he was processed, and then he had his initial appearance and his arraignment all at once. But here in Fulton County, things come in phases. First they negotiated bond, then he surrendered. Then they schedule this first hearing before the judge.
And the District Attorney Fani Willis has said she would like to do these arraignments the week of September 5. So the former president and his 18 co-defendants will all have to come back to Fulton County for that arraignment. We can also expect pretty much simultaneously to continue to see legal challenges.
We know that Mark Meadows and Jeffrey Clark have already filed challenges trying to move their cases to federal court. We expect the former president will likely try the same. Rudy Giuliani has also suggested on one of his podcasts that he intends to do that.
But, Jake, we also have to see these legal teams really solidify. This might be part of why the former president just secured his new attorney, because they only have a finite amount of time after that arraignment to file certain challenges to this indictment.
So someone, for example, Rudy Giuliani, needs to figure out who is going to represent him throughout this trial, because, of course, the lawyer who helped with his bond, Brian Tevis, has been non-committal about handling this entire case. So it's going to be a really busy next month for this Fulton County case.
TAPPER: And the trial, or the hearing rather, on whether or not this should be heard in a federal court, this should be transferred from Georgia to a federal court. That's Monday, is that right?
REID: That's exactly right. For the Mark Meadows case on Monday, that's the next thing that's really going to happen is a hearing for Mark Meadows and this question of whether his case should be removed to federal court. He is confident that if his Fulton County prosecution gets removed to federal court, that he can get it dismissed. He argues that he is protected under a law that protects certain federal officials from state level prosecutions.
But yesterday, the District Attorney Fani Willis, she weighed in and she fought back at that. She said, look what you were doing that had nothing to do with your role as chief of staff. She said, instead, that was political activity.
And, Jake, a real focus on Monday is going to be that infamous call with former President Trump and the Georgia Secretary of State, Brad Raffensperger, that appears to be what the District Attorney really wants to focus on, based on the witnesses she might call.
That's going to be the crux of her case to try to keep this in state court. But again, he's not the only one who is trying to make this argument. Jeffrey Clark also has a hearing schedule for this, and others, including Trump and Giuliani, have all said they're going to try this too.
TAPPER: And just game it out for us. Let's imagine that the judge on Monday and the future, any other judges who want this to be heard in federal court instead of on the state level, let's say that the judge disagrees with them, does this get appealed all the way up to the U.S. Supreme Court? Is that where this is headed, ultimately?
REID: It's certainly possible. I mean, these are questions. I would expect someone particularly like Mark Meadows, who has one of the best legal teams in this entire group of people. He also appears to have the resources to file a lot of legal challenges. He would likely appeal if he didn't succeed. Whether it would make it to the Supreme Court, is it an issue of first impression? It's always possible.
We've seen a lot of issues around the former president make their way closer to the Supreme Court, if not make it before the bench. But the other thing is, if he wins, right? Potentially, the U.S. attorney could be the same district attorney he's facing now. They could waive in the DA Fani Willis. It would still be a case under state law, but it would be a different jury pool.
And that's another thing that the former president, for example, is angling for. Fulton County is a predominantly Democratic district, and they believe that even if they can't get the case dismissed at the federal level, if they could just get the broader jury pool, that could potentially be more favorable for the former president or any of his co-defendants.
But it's a very unique situation, and it's pretty fascinating to see how the legal system works and how everybody's trying to game it out here. But again, eventually this case will find its way before a jury, likely either a jury from Fulton County or possibly a federal jury.
TAPPER: A federal jury. Thank you so much, Paula.
And I'm back with my team here. A federal jury in Georgia. What does that mean? Is that geographically different? Obviously, people feel as though the jury will be more politically diverse instead of as Democratic as Fulton County is.
MOORE: Well, and that's probably the biggest upside for Trump, is that he does get to draw a jury from a larger part of the state. If the case stays in Fulton County, he'll draw his jurors from a county that went predominantly for Biden, and he's probably not seen well there. And he's thinking his chances are not very good.
TAPPER: Although there will be jury selection, voir dire, et cetera.
MOORE: And that's the one thing he hadn't been able to tear up, honestly, is that we still have the court process. We still have voir dire. You know, you could still question jurors and make decisions about who you want to put on a jury.
If it's transferred to the federal court that his jury pool will be drawn from multiple counties around the North Georgia area, there's a chance that -- and typically they would draw that jury from what's called the Atlanta Division which would be basically metro Atlanta counties in the northern district of Georgia.
But sometimes in cases where you don't think you'll get enough people from just that division, you may draw from the entire district, which would obviously mean even from the North Georgia area where Marjorie Taylor Greene is from and other people who might be favorable to Trump. So it expands even further if they need to do it.
This is -- it wouldn't be unprecedented. They drew a larger jury in the Arbery case in South Georgia because they needed to make sure that they had enough people who didn't have some preconceived idea about the case and that's what's going to be difficult here.
This jury selection could go on for some time as they try to find some panel of 12 plus some alternates who have no real feelings one way or another about the former president. And that becomes, I think, a difficulty. You just look at sort of public polling even on that.
TAPPER: Yes. What -- I mean, do you think this transferring it to a federal jurisdiction, drawing from wider parts of the state geographically means that ultimately the odds that Donald Trump will at least have one juror -- because that's all you need -- one juror who will vote to acquit? I mean -- MCCABE: I mean, certainly the numbers are in his favor if he -- or
more in his favor if he gets the case removed to federal court for all the reasons that Michael said. But I think it's important to also emphasize that if he gets into federal court, he's halfway to getting this thing dismissed on Supremacy Clause grounds, right?
So he's got to get into federal court in order to make that next argument which will be you should dismiss this case because I was acting within the scope of my federal authority. And, you know, that's another whole argument. But that would be, I'm sure, any of these defendants optimal result.
TAPPER: Right. Although, it's also possible that you get 12 jurors who are objective and hear the facts --
MCCABE: That's right.
TAPPER: -- and they all voted for Donald Trump twice and they still ultimately, when presented with the facts, do their duty and vote the way they think is correct and not just according to whether or not they like Donald Trump.
MCCABE: That's right.
MOORE: It's true. But, I mean, I think the fear for any prosecutor and any lawyer talking to a jury is, has somebody not been candid in jury selection? And is sort of getting into the jury almost as a plant under the idea that maybe they're a patriot in some way. And so that's the concern.