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Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees

Supreme Court Agrees To Quickly Decide Whether It Will Hear Trump's Claim Of Presidential Immunity In 2020 Election Case; New Filing: Special Counsel To Use Data From Trump's Phone; Exclusive: Former Mar-A-Lago Employee-Turned-Witness Repeatedly Contacted by Trump And Associates Before Classified Docs Charges; Texas Supreme Court Reverses Ruling That Granted Woman Authorization For An Emergency Abortion; Giuliani Stands By False Claims About Georgia Election Workers On First Day Of Defamation Damages Trial; Israeli Defense Minister Claims Forces "Dismantling" Hamas; Israel Will Use Two Crossings To Help Screen Aid For Gaza; Palestinians Rescued From Rubble In Central Gaza Where Fighting Has Intensified; MSF Emergency Coordinator: Children Have Said They Don't Want To Live Anymore; One- On-One With Family Member Of Hostage Who Confronted Israeli Defense Minister; Cousin Of Hostage: "It's Not An Option That He's Not Going To Come Back Alive"; Lawyers: Russian Opposition Leader Alexey Navalny Missing From Prison. Aired 8-9p ET

Aired December 11, 2023 - 20:00   ET


ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: Tonight, Steven Spielberg breaking his silence after the October 7th terror attack in Israel. Spielberg, who directed the Oscar-winning Holocaust film "Schindler's List" saying, quote, "I never imagined I would see such unspeakable barbarity against Jews in my lifetime."

Spielberg also announcing that his USC Shoah Foundation, which records and preserves interviews of Holocaust survivors will now also be collecting accounts from people who survived the October 7th attacks.

Thank you very much for watching. It's time now for "AC 360."


ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: Tonight on "360," breaking news on two fronts. Special Counsel Jack Smith asking the Supreme Court to fast track a decision on whether the former president should even face trial for January 6th, and the Supreme Court has already responded.

Also, in the documents case, new revelations about what the former president and his associates have been saying to a former employee and potential witness.

And later, today's life-changing decision by the Texas woman caught between the state's strict abortion laws and a pregnancy almost certain to end in the death of her child. That and the court ruling on it just moments ago.

We begin tonight with the breaking news. Just hours after Special Counsel Jack Smith asked the Supreme Court to take up the question of whether the former president is immune from prosecution in the election subversion case, the court responded. Though it's only the court's initial move, it is also the speedy first step toward a potentially historic decision with echoes of another landmark case involving a president and the law nearly 50 years ago at the height of the Watergate scandal.

Jack Smith cited that case prominently in his filing today. More from our CNN Chief Legal Affairs Correspondent, Paula Reid. So what exactly has the Supreme Court right now agreed to?

PAULA REID, CNN CHIEF LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, today, the special counsel asked them to take up two constitutional questions in the hope that those could be resolved and they could move ahead with their election subversion case against Trump, as scheduled in March. And tonight, the Supreme Court said, we'll get back to you soon.

Now, they're not saying that they're going to take up these questions. They're saying, though, that their response will be prompt. And that's somewhat of a win for the special counsel because timing is everything here.

Former President Trump is litigating these legitimate questions that have never been answered before. The first is whether he is immune from prosecution. The second is whether he is protected from double jeopardy because he was impeached, though not convicted on similar charges.

While it is his right to litigate these questions, this takes time. It could take months, potentially even over a year for this question to go from the district court, where he has lost on immunity question, to the appeals court, to potentially the full appeals court, to the Supreme Court.

So, here, the special counsel is saying, look, it is a public importance that we skip that intermediary step and just go straight to the Supreme Court to get an answer on this.

COOPER: Also, Jack Smith cited this other case from the Watergate era about Nixon.

REID: Yes.

COOPER: How does that fit in?

REID: Yes, it's really interesting. They're citing a similar situation from the Watergate investigation where the Supreme Court was asked to weigh in on some specific issues. And there, the Supreme Court scheduled oral arguments for those questions about whether Nixon had to turn over tapes from the investigation, whether he was protected by executive privilege.

They scheduled oral arguments a few weeks out, and then just 16 days later, they had a decision. So that case could move ahead as scheduled.

Now, there are other examples of the Supreme Court allowing issues to skip that middle step -- the court of appeals. But this one, this is really the most on point because, of course, this is a question that they would argue is of national importance. And, of course, we're dealing with, in one case, a current and now a former president.

COOPER: Would a ruling from the Supreme Court only apply to the federal election subversion case or would it also impact the rest of the former president's other criminal proceedings?

REID: So the one case that can really be impacted here is, of course, the Georgia election subversion case. Now that is a state prosecution. The question before the Supreme Court is about federal prosecution. But, Anderson, look, if Trump wins at the Supreme Court here, I mean, that pretty much spells doom for Fani Willis' Georgia-based case.

If Trump loses on these questions at the Supreme Court, I don't think that's a very good sign for any attempt to launch similar appeals in Georgia, but it doesn't mean he won't do it, well, because at the heart of his strategy isn't necessarily the merits of these constitutional questions. Right now, it's about delay. Their goal is to delay this case until after the election. So, even attempting something like this in Georgia, even if he's lost at the Supreme Court, could be advantageous if it allows them to delay just a little bit longer.

COOPER: All right. Paula Reid, thanks so much.

With me here, CNN Senior Legal Analyst and Former Federal Prosecutor Elie Honig. Also, joining us, CNN Legal Analyst and Former Manhattan Chief Assistant District Attorney Karen Friedman Agnifilo. What do you think? Will they take this up, do you think?

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: I do think they will, Anderson. So this is what we call direct review, meaning Jack Smith wants skip that little step -- Court of Appeals -- and go right up to the Supreme Court.

COOPER: Because it's going to go to the Supreme Court no matter what?

HONIG: Right. They know they're taking this some way or other, so why have the middle man? Why take the many months that it would take for the Court of Appeals to weigh in. We know it's headed for the Supreme Court.


And also, if you look back at recent history, so this tactic of direct review was almost never done for a long time. However, the current Supreme Court has done it. And I have to credit Steve Vladeck, our Supreme Court expert, 19 times since 2019. So it's something they've done in cases we've heard of. For example, Joe Biden's student loan program, they granted this expedited relief and many others we have not heard of. This case is more important than any of those, and this case has more time pressure than any of those. So, I do think they will take it on this direct review.

COOPER: And, Karen, if the court does agree to hear the case, what does the timeline look like, and when do we expect a ruling? KAREN FRIEDMAN AGNIFILO, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, hopefully, it will be in time so that we can still have the trial March 4th in front of Judge Chutkan, because if it doesn't go March 4th, don't forget you've then got the Alvin Bragg Manhattan DA case slated to start a couple of weeks after that, March 24th. And then that will bump into the election. And at that point, it's not going to be able to go forward at trial in the middle of a presidential election.

And, frankly, if Donald Trump wins the election, when he becomes president -- if he becomes president, he could dismiss this case because the DOJ will be in his control and pardon himself. So, this case going soon and going in March is critical for this case going at all. And it's important that the American people, when they go into the election in November, has the results one way or another or at least gets to hear the evidence of this case.

Donald Trump files a lot of frivolous motions. This is not one of them. This is a very important motion. It actually has some merit, and it has to be decided by the Supreme Court. It's never been decided before.

COOPER: And, Elie, how long do you think the court could take both to hear the case and also to decide?

HONIG: Yes, so they have to be wary, of course, of that critical March 4th date. I mean, they have to get it done in enough time in advance. But I think if we play this out, they've given DOJ until next week -- excuse me, they've given Trump's team until next week to respond. And then I think they'll decide by the New Year whether they're taking it or not. I think they'll give each side two weeks or so, and I think we'll have a ruling if they take it by early to mid-February if I had to ballpark it.

COOPER: And, Karen, what happens to this case and all the other cases if the Supreme Court rules Trump is protected by immunity?

AGNIFILO: I mean, it just depends, right? Does he have absolute immunity or does he only have immunity for things that were within his job description or within the outer perimeter of his job? So it really depends on how they rule and how they slice and dice this.

But it wouldn't make any sense because there is the United States Constitution Article 1 Section 3 Clause 7 that actually talks about when a -- if a defendant is -- if a president is impeached and convicted, it only applies to what will happen if they'll be removed from office. It says, nevertheless, it can then -- you can do -- go to trial or charge him otherwise. And that's what Judge Chutkan found was the constitution specifically provides for a criminal prosecution of a president who commits a crime, even though it's not explicit.

Trump is actually using that same clause to say and argue in his favor that it means that he can't be prosecuted because there's an impeachment process and therefore, it's double jeopardy. So, they're each using the same clause and interpreting it differently. And it's important for the Supreme Court to weigh in and determine which one will -- you know, will dictate exactly what happens here. COOPER: There was also, Elie, this separate filing, Jack Smith indicating a plan to call this expert witness who -- and I want to read this -- who's, quote, "extracted and processed data from the White House cell phones used by the defendant and one other individual, determined the usage of these phones throughout the post- election period, including on and around January 6; and -- number four -- specifically identified the periods of time during which the defendant's phone was unlocked and the Twitter application was open on January 6."

So, basically, it's -- they don't necessarily have access to data on the phone if he was -- the -- I mean, he's not somebody who sends a lot of messages, supposedly.

HONIG: Right.

COOPER: What would they find from the phone, and why are they doing this?

HONIG: This is so important because cell phones have now become evidentiary bonanzas. When I started as a prosecutor 20 years ago, not everyone had cell phones, and you couldn't do that much with them.

Now, they can tell you virtually everything about what a person is doing, who they're communicating with. If we look at what we know here from the reporting, this data will show prosecutors where Donald Trump was because your cell phone is always what we call pinging, meaning, it's looking for the nearest cell tower.

You can tell where a person -- you can geolocate that person with some precision. Even though Donald Trump famously doesn't email or texts, he used DMs reportedly on Twitter. You can see that, you can see drafts, you can see what other apps he was using. You can see photo images. So this is now standard that prosecutors do this.

COOPER: And they're allowed to look at this data?

HONIG: Yes, they're allowed to look at this data. They're allowed to either with consent or with a search warrant. I'm sure the prosecutors here have gotten the proper process for this.


And then you send it to the FBI lab, and they do what's called "dump the phone." They just do a forensic dig on it. And you can come up with remarkably specific data that's ...

COOPER: Would he have had to give up his password?

HONIG: Yes. So he wouldn't have a choice if they -- either he would've consented to that or if they got a search warrant, he wouldn't have a choice and he would have to give it up. In order to get in this way, he would've had to either given up his password or unlock it for them.

COOPER: Elie Honig, thanks so much. Karen Friedman Agnifilo as well, thanks. More breaking news tonight involving the former president and the law, specifically, the Mar-a-Lago classified documents case and his interactions with a potential trial witness.

CNN's Katelyn Polantz joins us now with the exclusive. What have you learned?

KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN SENIOR CRIME AND JUSTICE REPORTER: Well, Anderson, this is a story about a series of communications. There's a close-knit circle of people who worked for -- at Mar-a-Lago -- who still work at Mar-a-Lago under Donald Trump.

And in the crucial period, there was the FBI search last August. And then an employee -- a longtime employee, who was quite close to many people at Mar-a-Lago, leaves Mar-a-Lago having been a witness to many of the things that later appeared in the indictment of the Donald Trump, Carlos De Oliveira, and Walt Nauta, who's two people who worked for him.

This person -- this former employee -- is becoming a witness. And before Donald Trump and these two other men are charged, there's just enough things that raised his attention to make it seem a little bit different because the amount of communication he was getting from not just Carlos De Oliveira and Walt Nauta, but Trump himself, was unusual for him. So these are his friends or people that he is working with regularly.

But the things that I have learned through multiple sources, as far -- as well as the materials that I've gotten, to have been able to have a bit of a insight into, is that this former employee at Mar-a-Lago, he was friends with Carlos De Oliveira who later became charged in this case. And Carlos had said things to him about, hey, you should come to a golf tournament after he leaves working at the club. The -- Trump would like to see you. I think Trump would really like to see you.

He also talks to Carlos De Oliveira, and Carlos says something about, perhaps you want to come back to your job. You could come back to your job at Mar-a-Lago if you wanted to. There's also some discussions between the two about the attorneys. So they want to use attorneys that are within the Trump circles, as Carlos De Oliveira did. This former employee chose to use an attorney outside of the Trump circles.

There's also an instance where he interacts with Walt Nauta, who later is charged -- someone he has a less close relationship to. And Walt Nauta did tell him, you could come back to work at Mar-a-Lago if you wanted, that Walt Nauta was also showing up at a gym with this man, as well as Carlos De Oliveira, which was unusual.

And then finally, Anderson, the -- one of the things that was so unusual here is, as this former employee left his job a couple of months after that FBI search before he becomes a crucial witness to investigators, Donald Trump gets his cell phone number, hadn't called him in quite some time, rarely called an employee like this, and calls him and asks him, why are you leaving, why are you leaving working for me, very possibly, at that time, knowing that this man could be a witness against him in this investigation.

Now, all of this may just be how people are exchanging conversations, how people have conversations, how their friends have conversations, what Trump is doing when people are leaving. But it all is happening at such an interesting time that the special counsel's office did pick up on this pattern of interaction. They did look into it at one point in time. They were told about several of these instances.

COOPER: So, they knew about this? And this was previously known to Jack Smith?

POLANTZ: This was previously known to Jack Smith. Through the reporting that I did for this story, it did become apparent that the special counsel's office did several interviews with this former employee, and that former employee did give them this information. And it clearly was something that they were keeping tabs on not just before the indictment of Donald Trump and others, but it is something that the prosecutors very likely would be looking for now at a time where everything that Donald Trump and these two other men are doing after their criminal indictment, now that they are defendants awaiting trial, there are many restrictions placed around them. It is the sort of thing that they can't do now.

COOPER: Yes. Katelyn Polantz, thanks. It's fascinating.

Coming up next, more breaking news, what the Texas Supreme Court just decided about a pregnant woman's appeal for an emergency abortion only hours after she left the state to get one.

Also, Rudy Giuliani in court, the jurors set to decide how much he's going to have to pay for falsehoods he spread about two 2020 Georgia election workers. That and what he said after court when we continue.



COOPER: More breaking news. Shortly before air time, the Texas Supreme Court overturned a lower court and ruled that Kate Cox cannot get an emergency abortion. It came just hours after she left the state. Her effort to end the pregnancy with a fetus with an almost-always fatal genetic defect and the state's effort to block it have already drawn national attention.

For more on this latest chapter, CNN's Ed Lavandera joins us now from Dallas. So what more do we know about her efforts to get an abortion outside of Texas?

ED LAVANDERA, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, remember, everything kind of came to a screeching halt on Friday after Republican Attorney General Ken Paxton appealed the lower court's ruling of this temporary injunction that granted Kate Cox the legal right to get an abortion. That case was taken to the Supreme Court.

And because Kate Cox was waiting in legal limbo for much of the weekend, as her attorneys described, it is as a hellish weekend. She remained laid up in bed most of the weekend. And it was after that that she decided today to leave the state, to go elsewhere to get the abortion. And then as you mentioned, just hours later after that announcement was made, the Texas Supreme Court issued that ruling. And essentially, it was siding with Ken Paxton here in Texas. So, at the bottom line, Anderson, if Kate Cox wanted this abortion, she had no other choice but to leave the state.

COOPER: Ed Lavandera, thanks very much.

Now, the man once known as America's mayor, Rudy Giuliani, today said he does not regret what he said about two 2020 Georgia election workers. Quoting him now, "Everything I said about them is true."


An actual fact, a federal judge has already ruled that what he said was false and defamatory. That determination came, in part, one of the case. Giuliani said what he said at the end of the first day of part two, the part in which he -- a jury will decide how much he'll pay in damages for those very same falsehoods. Details now from CNN's Jessica Schneider.


RUDY GIULIANI, (R) FORMER NEW YORK CITY MAYOR: It's disgraceful what happened.

JESSICA SCHNEIDER, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Rudy Giuliani spent the days after the 2020 election traveling state to state, falsely insisting the results were rigged.

GIULIANI: I don't have to be a genius to figure out that those votes are not legitimate votes.

SCHNEIDER (voice over): In Georgia, he focused his fire on two unsuspecting election workers in Fulton County.

GIULIANI: It's a tape earlier in the day of Ruby Freeman and Shaye Freeman Moss and one other gentleman. They should have been questioned already. Their places of work, their homes should have been searched for evidence of ballots, for evidence of USB ports, for evidence of voter fraud.

SCHNEIDER (voice over): Shaye Moss later told the January 6th Committee her life changed forever the day Giuliani publicly spread conspiracy theories about her at a state Senate hearing. She and her mother soon received death threats, angry election deniers showed up at her home, and Ruby Freeman was forced into hiding.

RUBY FREEMAN, FORMER FULTON COUNTY ELECTION WORKER: I've lost my name and I've lost my reputation. I've lost my sense of security, all because a group of people starting with number 45 and his ally, Rudy Giuliani, decided to scapegoat me and my daughter, Shaye, to push their own lies about how the presidential election was stolen.

WANDREA "SHAYE" MOSS, FORMER FULTON COUNTY ELECTION WORKER: I second guess everything that I do. It's affected my life in a major way -- every way all because of lies.

SCHNEIDER (voice over): Giuliani claimed Moss and Freeman plotted to kick ballot watchers out of State Farm Arena, the spot in Fulton County, hosting the ballot counting. He also pushed the false narrative that they had brought in suitcases filled with fake ballots for Biden and then scanned them into the system multiple times. And Giuliani described surveillance video from that day he claimed showed Ruby and her daughter exchanging USB memory sticks containing a fraudulent vote count.

GIULIANI: And when you look at what you saw on the video, which, to me, was a smoking gun -- powerful smoking gun ...

GIULIANI: Quite obviously, surreptitiously passing around USB ports as if they are vials of heroin or cocaine.

GIULIANI: You don't put the votes under a table.


GIULIANI: Wait until you throw the opposite out, and in the middle of the night count them. We would have to be fools to think that.

REP. ADAM SCHIFF (D), CALIF.: None of that was true, was it?

MOSS: None of it.

SCHNEIDER (voice over): Congressman Adam Schiff on the January 6 Committee asked Shaye if Giuliani accurately described what her mom was passing under the table.

SCHIFF: What was your mom actually handing you on that video?

MOSS: A ginger mint.


COOPER: Ginger mint. Jessica Schneider joins us now. To be clear, Rudy Giuliani has already been found libel of defaming Shaye Moss and Ruby Freeman. What's the possible penalty?

SCHNEIDER: Yes. So a jury in this case is going to determine just how much he actually must pay. So he already owes them $230,000. That's for failing to respond to parts of their lawsuit.

On top of that, Anderson, this mother and daughter, they're asking the jury to award them between $15 million and $43 million. They say that's for the reputational harm they've suffered from Giuliani's comments. And on top of that, they're seeking additional money for their claim of emotional distress.

And you said earlier, even tonight, even though he's already been found libel for defamation, Giuliani is still insisting that he spoke the truth. He was outside the courthouse tonight claiming once again that these women were engaged in changing votes, even though we know that is false -- Anderson. COOPER: I mean, formerly America's mayor ...


COOPER: ... continuing to defame these people. Jessica Schneider, thank you.

Coming up, Israel said today it is dismantling Hamas. We'll take a look at the fight on the ground and talk with an emergency coordinated with the group, Doctors Without Borders, who's inside a key hospital serving central Gaza, where fighting has intensified.



COOPER: Loud explosions in northern Gaza today as Israel's defense minister said that Hamas's last strongholds there are surrounded. He repeated a claim from last week that Hamas is near a breaking point. He didn't cite specific evidence to confirm these claims. But to that point, the IDF released these photos today, claiming the men you see here are members of Hamas and Islamic Jihad who surrendered.

Our Alex Marquardt has more now on the fighting, as well as growing humanitarian concerns. I want to warn you, some of the images you'll see are graphic.


ALEX MARQUARDT, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Israel says after two months of fighting, it is still battling Hamas in two different strongholds in northern Gaza, where militants have held out. But Israel claims they are now on the verge of being dismantled.

One area is the Jabalya refugee camp, where residents said dozens of civilians were killed over the weekend. Since the fragile week-long pause in the fighting ended, Israel has pounded the Gaza Strip and focused on the south in Khan Younis, the second largest city there where Israel believes senior Hamas leaders may be hiding.

As Israel expands its operations, the number of civilians killed and wounded grows.

(UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE speaking in foreign language.)

MARQUARDT (voice over): "The entire house fell on my head, and I was pulled from underneath the rubble," this woman said. It would have been better off dead with my children rather than living in this grim reality.

An urgent appeal was issued by the IDF this weekend for even more civilians to evacuate parts of Khan Younis, but it's unclear how many would have heard the orders. And it isn't a guarantee of safety or shelter, medicine, food, and water, which are all in short supply.

(UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE speaking in foreign language.)

MARQUARDT (voice over): "We were displaced from the north to the south for safety, but there is no safety in the south," this woman said.

It has led to deteriorating, chaotic scenes. United Nations Secretary- General warning that public order will completely break down soon.

COLONEL MOSHE TETRO, COORDINATION OF GOVERNMENT ACTIVITIES IN THE TERRITORIES: The situation is very challenging, but I think that the state of Israel does much beyond our obligations by the international humanitarian law.

MARQUARDT (on camera): You call the situation in southern Gaza challenging. Last month, you denied that there was a humanitarian crisis in Gaza. Do you acknowledge now that there really is a dire humanitarian crisis?

TETRO: What I'm saying is, like I've said, the situation is very, very challenging.

MARQUARDT (on camera): But it's not a crisis, in your opinion?

TETRO: As I see it, it's a challenge, it's a huge challenge.



COOPER: Alex Marquardt joins us now from Tel Aviv in Israel. Israel has now confirmed another border crossing will open tomorrow not to get humanitarian aid into Gaza. What's it for?

MARQUARDT: Yes, Anderson, Israel has been very strict about inspecting all of the aid going into Gaza. Up until now, there's only been one inspection point down at a place called Nitzana between Israel and Egypt. And now with Kerem Shalom opening, there will be a second inspection point.

So effectively what that does is double the number of trucks that will be allowed into Gaza. So you're going to have trucks coming from Egypt to those two Israeli inspection points, then going back to the Rafah crossing to go into Gaza.

But still, Anderson, that may not be enough. Rafah is not built to deal with a large number of trucks. And you have this enormous number of people who have fled to the southern part of Gaza and very, very fierce fighting. So even with more trucks, the concept, the question of distribution is still very, very complicated. Anderson?

COOPER: Alex Marquardt, thank you very much.

I want to show you this video of a dramatic rescue in central Gaza. Husband and wife trapped under rubble. You can see medical staff and others lifting them out. The Palestinian Red Crescent Society, which shared this video, says that the couple's 22-year-old son was killed in the bombing. We've not been able to independently verify that claim.

After the rescue, the couple is transported to the Al-Aqsa hospital, which is one of the only lifelines for civilians in the central part of Gaza, where fighting has intensified since the end of the truce. It's also where my next guest works. Marie-Aure Perreaut Revial is an emergency coordinator for Doctors Without Borders. I spoke to her before airtime.

Connection from inside Gaza was rough, but we believe it's important to hear what life at the hospital is like right now.


COOPER: Marie, what's the scene like right now at the hospital?

MARIE-AURE PERREAUT REVIAL, MSF EMERGENCY COORDINATOR IN GAZA: It's chaotic, but chaotic just doesn't quite describe it anymore. It's been -- honestly, today has been a very brutal day for us, for us as healthcare workers because the hospital has received a very high number of patients through the ER today.

COOPER: I have read some of the things that you have seen, that your team have seen and heard, and I wonder if you could just talk about that. I mean, children, five-year-old children talking about killing themselves because they can't stand what they're going through.

PERREAUT REVIAL: The first day that we arrived here in Al-Aqsa hospital, 40 percent of the children we provided wound care for were under the age of 15. Yes, the first time we heard such a young child telling us that they just didn't want to live anymore was in a health center where we were providing care in Khan Younis. And for more than 10 days now, we had to suspend our operations in that very health center because it was ordered to evacuate.

COOPER: In terms of your actual supplies, are you able to replenish supplies? Do you have the supplies -- do you have your own supplies?

PERREAUT REVIAL: No, it's extremely difficult. Supplies now are used as a bargaining chip. We cynically count the number of trucks that are going to Rafah border every day. But whatever the number of trucks that might go to Rafah, every day, it just -- it will never match the situation now.

It will never match the number of people which are injured every day. It will never match the complete -- never match the complete lack of access to health care in general, primary, secondary. Just nothing is functioning anymore. So it's extremely difficult to get supplies, but it's also extremely difficult to operate at all.

COOPER: How long are you going to be able to operate there for, if these conditions continue?

PERREAUT REVIAL: It's very difficult to say, which is kind of -- we go on by the day. We try and plan the next day. It's the supplies. It's also for how long will we have staff here? For how long will the hospital be safe? It's also extremely difficult to say. We know now that there's absolutely no safe space in Gaza. So it's very, very difficult to say.

COOPER: And are you -- I'm not sure if you can talk about this. I'm not sure if you're concerned about safety. Do you see Hamas or other groups firing rockets from nearby your areas, continuing into Israel because rockets keep being fired? Is that something you -- people see there?

PERREAUT REVIAL: Well, we're pretty much locked in the hospital, so it's also difficult for me personally to comment on any of this, but we do see an incredible amount of suffering from the hospital. We do see that people don't feel safe anywhere within Gaza at the moment.

COOPER: I do need to say, I have spoken to an MSF worker who worked in Gaza in a number of locations and did say -- they wouldn't say so publicly, but did say that rockets were being fired very close to the location where they were staying, outgoing rockets into Israel.


PERREAUT REVIAL: I mean, we hear active fightings going all over, yes. And so I can't say things -- yes, I can't say things that I'm not witnessing from within the hospital. But, yes, we do hear active fightings going on from -- yes, all over at the moment now.

COOPER: Is -- I know -- I mean, MSF has been very critical of what they say is indiscriminate shelling by Israel. Are you able to be critical of Hamas if you saw things from Hamas as well?

PERREAUT REVIAL: I think we would be able to be critical of any, and we are able to be critical of any civilian suffering.

COOPER: I'm not sure where else you've served, but, I mean, MSF has, I mean, I've profiled MSF workers around the world in Rwanda during the genocide, in places horrific conditions. How does this compare to other places, maybe you have been or your colleagues have been?

PERREAUT REVIAL: It's -- for me, it's not possible to compare human suffering and human -- yes, just suffering all over. But I would say how it compares, it's more our capacity, or rather incapacity to operate here that is quite striking.

COOPER: Maria-Aure, I appreciate your time. Thank you. Please be careful.



COOPER: Just ahead, 117 hostages are believed to still be alive inside Gaza, that's according to Israeli estimates. One of them, Ofer Kalderon. His cousin, confronted the Israeli Defense Minister that we mentioned earlier in front of the minister's house. She joins me next to talk about her cousin, the hostages and that confrontation.



COOPER: The Israeli Defense Minister, Yoav Gallant, who said Hamas is near a breaking point, was confronted by family members of two hostages on Friday. It was an intense exchange that occurred outside his home and was captured on video.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): If it doesn't happen tomorrow, they will actually die. Your whole idea of pumping water into the tunnels, you'll kill them.

YOAV GALLANT, ISRAELI DEFENSE MINISTER (through translator): I am explaining something else. Hamas is willing to speak to us only when we're applying force.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): Do you know what they eat? Rice and a glass of seawater. How long can they live on that without sun and light?

GALLANT (through translator): We will make all efforts.

IFAT KALDERON, COUSIN BELIEVED TO BE HELD HOSTAGE IN GAZA (through translator): As quickly as possible so they don't return inside coffins, but come back alive.


COOPER: The second woman you saw there shaking the hand of the defense minister and who pleaded that the hostages are returned as quickly as possible is a woman named Ifat Kalderon, her cousin, with whom she's close, Ofer Kalderon, is still believed to be held in Gaza.

Two of his kids who we've reported on in the past, a 12-year-old boy and a 16-year-old girl, were released two weeks ago during the truce. Two more members of the family, an 80-year-old woman and her 13-year- old special needs granddaughter, initially were believed kidnapped, but they were murdered. Their remains were identified more than a week after the October 7 attack.

Just before air, I spoke to Ifat Kalderon about that confrontation in front of the defense minister's house.


COOPER: Ifat, we just heard a little bit of your confrontation with Israel's Defense Minister Gallant on Friday night. What was his response? What did you make of his response?

KALDERON: They don't want to stop the war right now. They don't want to go back to negotiate with Hamas. And they think that they need to go into Gaza and continue. And I don't agree with it.

COOPER: Do you think there is an inherent contradiction between the idea of neutralizing Hamas and also rescuing hostages? Can you do both? Because it seems like you're saying there should be a pause or a ceasefire, a stop to the fighting and the priority number one is the hostages?

KALDERON: Yes. I think that the first priority is to take them, to bring them back home. The citizen that they were taken from their beds in the morning of the 7 of October, they haven't done anything. The government needs to bring them back home. It's the first priority, of course.

COOPER: What do you think it would take to bring all sides back to the table to negotiate?

KALDERON: The other responsible person is President Biden. Their needs to make it happen to bring the both sides to negotiate again, because I don't think that they're going to do it by themselves. Like, it's not going to happened. No way.

COOPER: There's been some reporting that one option the IDF has considered is pumping seawater into the tunnels. Obviously, there's a lot of concern if hostages were in those tunnels. What did he -- what did Gallant say to that when you pressed him on it?

KALDERON: Actually he didn't say something about that because I told him, if you're going to do it, they're not going to survive, they're going to die. I told them they're going to be dead. So this is something that you want (INAUDIBLE).

COOPER: Erez and Sahar were taken hostage along with their father. They were released. Erez and Sahar were released two weeks ago. How are they doing?

KALDERON: They're not good. They're alive. They came back. We're really happy. But the picture is fulfilled is their father Ofer will come back. Ofer is really special dad. He's really loved one. He's taking care of them.

He's like -- they're going for trips together. They're doing lots of things together and he's really part of their life. For me and for them, it's not an option that he's not going to come back home alive and they're not good now. And how can they?


They're about 52 days in Gaza. How can children like 12 years old and 16 years old, everything they've seen, they've seen their father in the kibbutz before they take into Gaza. They've seen the terrorists hitting Ofer.

He's been hitted also in their leg. He's injured right now, so nobody knows what his situation right now. Just you know, we heard some stuff from people that came back from there and they eat like a piece of bread and a glass of seawater a day, something like that.

How can you survive? All the situation is very scary. Every day that crossing by is like, I think they ask him that we're going to survive because they don't know if, you know, the bomb can hit them.


KALDERON: You know, they can be killed from our side, from the Israeli side. It's really scary.

COOPER: Well, Ifat, I appreciate talking to you and I'm sorry it's still under these circumstances and I hope you get good news soon.

KALDERON: Thank you. Thank you very much.


COOPER: Coming up, the mysterious disappearance of imprisoned Russian opposition leader Alexey Navalny. And what Russian officials are claiming about it. I'll talk with his daughter next.



COOPER: Lawyers for jailed Russian opposition leader Alexey Navalny say he's been missing for six days and didn't show up for a court hearing today via video link. Prison officials claim there was an electricity issue. Navalny's legal team say they've made several attempts to reach him with no success and they're worried about his health. In a moment, I'll speak with his daughter.

In August, the 47-year-old critic of Russia's President Vladimir Putin was found guilty of creating an extremist community and other crimes and sentenced to 19 years in prison. He was already serving nearly 12 years on fraud and other charges that he denies.

Joining me now is his daughter, Dasha Navalnaya. Dasha, thank you so much for being with us. I'm so sorry we're talking under these circumstances. Have you -- do you buy this idea that there were electrical issues?

DASHA NAVALNY, DAUGHTER OF RUSSIAN OPPOSITION LEADER ALEXEY NAVALNY: Of course not. Thank you so much for having me. It's very important that we keep this story on air. And thank you for having me. I don't buy for one second that there have been any technical problems in the prison.

There have been many instances where they have transferred him or just didn't want him to come out because whenever my dad has a court hearing, he uses that to speak up against the war or tell people to question the regime.

And Putin has actually just announced that he is going to be running for reelection in the coming presidential elections. And they don't want my father to speak up against that.

COOPER: Do you know anything about his current whereabouts or even when was the last time you knew about his whereabouts? NAVALNAYA: The concerning thing is that we have no idea where he is or what's happening or if he's even being transferred anywhere. The most recent updates that you got from his attorneys and from his spokesperson, Kyra Yarmysh, are the most recent updates that I got personally.

The -- what happened -- his most -- the most up to date news on his health is that two weeks ago, he fainted in his cell because they've been practically starving him. He's very malnourished. He's not getting any medical support that he needs, or he's been asking to see a dentist, and they're not providing anything.

And he's being stripped of his basic human rights as he's being held in prison unlawfully. He fainted in his cell two weeks ago, and they put him on an IV. But the IV can be anything. The IV can be just full of water, filled with vitamin B12. And it can -- it doesn't necessarily support his health.

So I'm very concerned for him. The last time the attorneys have been able to speak to him was six days ago. And since then, he's been MIA. We have no idea where he is. And the technical problems are just front.

COOPER: How much regular contact do his attorneys or even you have with him?

NAVALNAYA: It's -- you know, when it comes to my father, there's no regular -- there's no regulations. The prison wards and the prison guards don't really follow any rules. We just take what we can get from them.

I write him letters on occasion, and sometimes the letters go through censorship, of course. Sometimes it takes two weeks for him to respond. Sometimes it takes for him a month to respond. Sometimes I know -- I notice that he doesn't respond to me about my certain concerns about my classes here in college.

And I understand that he didn't get a certain letter that I wrote to him because I didn't go through censorship. The last time I was in communication with him was a month ago, personally. And the last time he was able to talk to his attorneys was a week ago. Yes.

COOPER: How do you deal with this, I mean, as a daughter?

NAVALNAYA: It's difficult. It's certainly something that I've had to work on dealing with over the past couple of years. But I know that my father is doing an incredible thing for, not just to have -- for me personally, his daughter, his child, my brother, his son, to have a better country and a better life, but also for all citizens of Russia, and for all people around the world who are striving to have a better democracy.

He's doing an incredibly noble thing, and I'm very proud to be his daughter.

COOPER: And have you had any contact with U.S. authorities on your dad's behalf?


COOPER: No. If you could get a message to your father right now, what would you tell him? I mean, I assume he doesn't have access to any outside communication, does he? TV is --


NAVALNAYA: No, he doesn't have -- no, there is no such thing as TVs in -- there is -- there are TVs in the Russian prisons, but they usually just show Russian propaganda 24/7 which is -- I know how much he hates watching that TV. But they're trying to really build the Russian sort of love for country than the prisoners in the system.

But if I were to get a message out to him, I don't know. I just -- I want the people, not just him, but I want others to know that I have hope and for other people to have hope that we can change the regime if we work together. And to talk to your friends and family and agitate them to be against Putin.

He's running for an election, and when you talk about it, there's three months before the elections. The presidential elections are in March 2024.


NAVALNAYA: And if you're in Russia, vote against him and tell your friends and family to vote against him, too.

COOPER: Dasha Navalnaya, I appreciate it. Thank you.

Be right back.

NAVALNAYA: Thank you so much.


COOPER: That's it for us. The news continues. The Source with Kaitlan Collins starts now. See you tomorrow.