Return to Transcripts main page

Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees

Biden Says Trump Verdict Shows No One Is Above The Law; Trump Rails Against Historic Guilty Verdict, Vows To Appeal Felony Conviction; New Poll: After Trump Conviction, 14 Percent Of Republicans Say They Won't Vote For A Felon, Down From 24 Percent Last Month; Voters In Pennsylvania Swing County React To Trump Guilty Verdict; Trump Campaign Says It Raised Almost $53 Million Since Verdict; Michelle Obama's Mother, Marian Robinson, Dies At 86; Hamas Views New Ceasefire Proposal "Positively". Aired 8-9p ET

Aired May 31, 2024 - 20:00   ET



ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: President Obama writing: "With a healthy nudge, she agreed to move to the White House. We needed her. The girls needed her. And she ended up being our rock through it all." According to Michelle Obama, she was the most popular person in the White House, something she and her mother have spoken about.


MARIAN SHIELDS ROBINSON, MICHELLE OBAMA'S MOTHER: I talked them into allowing me to do my own laundry.

MICHELLE OBAMA, FORMER FIRST LADY: And she was the most beloved ...


OBAMA: ... figure in the White House.

GAYLE KING: Exactly.

OBAMA: Let me tell you.

GAYLE KING: I believe that.

OBAMA: She had a stream of people, the butlers, the housekeepers, they would all stop by and they would - grandma's room was like the confessional.


BURNETT: Marian Robinson was 86 years old.

Thanks for joining us. AC360 with Anderson starts now.

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: Tonight on 360, the former president unloads on the verdict that made him a convicted felon and Republicans join him in attacking the criminal justice system. What's ahead in his case, a new polling on the political impact. Also tonight, someone who knows what it's like to get inside his head, "Art of the Deal" ghostwriter Tony Schwartz and how his former subject may handle the days ahead.

And breaking news, the details of President Biden's new ceasefire proposal for Gaza, the timing of it and the reception it's getting.

Good evening. Thanks for joining us.

We begin tonight with what comes next legally, politically and otherwise now that Donald Trump is a convicted felon. Both he and President Biden weighed in today. The President, very briefly, the former president in great length, more than a half hour this morning at Trump Tower.


DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: This is a scam. This is a rigged trial. It shouldn't have been in that venue. We shouldn't have had that judge. You saw what happened to some of the witnesses that were on our side, they were literally crucified by this man who looks like an angel, but he's really a devil. Hush money. Hush money. It's not hush money. It's called the non-disclosure agreement.

And it all comes out of the White House. Crooked Joe Biden, the worst president in the history of our country. He's the worst president in the history of our country.


COOPER: His former lawyer and fixer, prosecution witness Michael Cohen, called his old boss' performance today a, quote, "crazy avalanche of broken brain word manure." From a factual standpoint, that often stated claim that President Biden was somehow behind the trial is simply false, something the President underscored today.


JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: It was a state case, not a federal case. And it was heard by a jury of 12 citizens - 12 Americans, 12 people like you.

After careful deliberation, the jury reached a unanimous verdict. They found Donald Trump guilty on all 34 felony counts. Now he'll be given the opportunity, as he should, to appeal that decision just like everyone else has that opportunity.

That's how the American system of justice works.

And it's reckless, it's dangerous, and it's irresponsible for anyone to say this was rigged just because they don't like the verdict.


COOPER: Congressional Republicans, meantime, many of whom identify and campaign on being tough on crime and supporters of law enforcement, were almost unified in their condemnation not just of the verdict, but also the justice system.


SEN. TIM SCOTT (R-SC): Under Joe Biden, the weaponization of the justice system has become front and center in this election.

SEN. J.D. VANCE (R-OH): You cannot say that this trial was anything more than politics, masquerading as justice. I do not think it was a fair trial at all.

SEN. MARKWAYNE MULLIN (R-OK): Here you have a district attorney that literally ran on convicting Donald Trump. That's a problem.


COOPER: House Judiciary Chair, Jim Jordan's subcommittee on so-called weaponization of the federal government today announced it wants Manhattan District Attorney Alvin Bragg and one of the trial prosecutors to appear for a hearing next month. Several Republican senators today signed a letter saying they, quote, "Are unwilling to aid and abet this White House and will not allow expedited consideration in passage of Democratic legislation."

And Mike Johnson, Speaker of the House, second in line of succession to the presidency, went on Fox this morning. He said something striking given his role and what the Constitution says about separation of powers between the three branches of government.


REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA): I do believe the Supreme Court should step in. I think that the justices on the court, I know many of them personally, I think they're deeply concerned about that as we are. So I think they'll set this straight.


COOPER: Well, keeping them honest, there's no indication the Supreme Court is going to get involved in Trump's felony convictions, and there's certainly no precedent for their involvement either.

Joining us now is New York criminal defense attorney, Arthur Aidala. With us as well tonight, retired New York judge, George Grasso. Also, former Manhattan Chief Assistant District Attorney, Karen Friedman Agnifilo, who recently interviewed Michael Cohen for her podcast. And full disclosure, her law firm represents him, but she does not work on that case and there are no restrictions on what she can say about the Trump case.

Judge, I heard something you had said I wanted to ask you about. I mean, you were in the court every single day. You were there for the guilty verdict as well. You don't rule out jail time for Donald Trump.

GEORGE GRASSO, RETIRED NYC CRIMINAL COURT JUDGE: I absolutely don't. So on the one hand, if we look at this and we can say it's an E felony, the lowest level of felony.


It's nonviolent. We have a 77-year-old convicted felon here without a prior record. So that would all obviously weigh towards no incarceration. On the other hand, judges - the judge is waiting now for about six weeks. He's going to get a pre-sentencing report. They're working on it now. They're going to be looking. Has he learned anything, is he contrite.

Well, we just saw what we saw together there, so kind of like X that.

And to me, most serious is this is not the typical falsification of business records case. You would - you think of them as like the average person might think it was like a green eye shade kind of thing, like an accountant putting a book in the wrong drawer or something like that.

This is - the connection crime here, the object crime was a violation of New York election law, 34 - 34 separate felony counts where the jury found unanimously that New York state election law was violated. Who likes to rant and rave constantly about election interference, election interference? Well, the guy who was just convicted of 34 counts, essentially of election interference in an election in 2016, that was actually close enough that the actions he stands convicted of could have turned that election around.

That's about as serious as it gets. And if I were the judge, I'm not saying I would impose jail, but I would strongly consider it. The max is four years. It doesn't have to be jail time. So you could - he's got a lot of range. They could do like 60 days jail and three years probation to send a message about how serious it would be.


GRASSO: Weekends in jail.

AGNIFILO: Community service, pick up trash on the subway.

GRASSO: I think ...

COOPER: Karen, I mean, do you think it's a possibility?

AGNIFILO: I think it's a possibility. Look, I think just adding to everything that the judge just said is also the fact that he was held in contempt 10 different times in front of this judge. I mean, did you have a ...

COOPER: That in a normal case would actually be taken into consideration.

GRASSO: Well, let's all state for the fact here. Trump was treated differently in this case. He was treated far more leniently than any other defendant who would have been put in jail like contempt number two or three. ARTHUR AIDALA, NEW YORK CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Judge, I can't wait to talk. I just can't wait to talk because I couldn't disagree with you more.


AIDALA: If you look at the median sentence on an E felony, nonviolent, 77-year-old person with no record whatsoever in a crime, Anderson, where they're not talking about stealing millions of dollars or any kind of massive corruption that's taken little old ladies ...


AIDALA: ... they would not prove - it wasn't proven that he stole the election.

AGNIFILO: It was, they had to find it unanimously. If you read the jury charge ...

AIDALA: Go ahead.

AGNIFILO: ... they had to find unanimously beyond a reasonable doubt ...

AIDALA: Go ahead.

AGNIFILO: ... that there was - that they stole - that there was election interference. Period. Full stop.

AIDALA: Okay. There was election interference.

COOPER: There was an intent to ...

AIDALA: Okay. There was an intent to a - an intent to - I want to know how many people in the United States of America who voted for Donald Trump would not have voted for him had they found out that when he was extorted by Stormy Daniels, he entered into a nondisclosure agreement and paid her off.

Anderson, the judge already said during the ...

COOPER: We will never know that, but they were certainly concerned enough to have gone ahead ...


COOPER: ... and commit what the ...


AIDALA: But the judge said, I don't want to put you in jail, Mr. Trump. You are the presumptive nominee of the Republican Party and a press president, I don't want to put you in jail. And if Alvin Bragg dares to ask for jail time after on the first day of him being in office, he put out a memo about how soft he was in crime to the degree that it took judge - it drove this judge to leave the bench, a prestigious position he had to run for district attorney in Queens because he thought crime was going crazy.

Alvin Bragg said, I want you to find alternatives to incarcerations on robbery on this, on that.

COOPER: Yes. Yes.

AIDALA: And now on this old man, he's ...

COOPER: So Judge Grasso, what do you say to that?

AIDALA: ... (INAUDIBLE) going to put him in jail?

GRASSO: So wait a minute, I got tears in my eyes.

AIDALA: Well, you should have tears in your eyes.

GRASSO: I got to collect myself.

AIDALA: Alvin Bragg doesn't ask for jail on violent crimes. He's going to ask for jail on this?

GRASSO: I think stealing an election ...

AIDALA: It's - come on, Judge.

GRASSO: Let me finish.

AIDALA: Stealing ...

COOPER: Let the judge ...

GRASSO: Thirty-four felony counts involving a crime, constituting a conspiracy to use unlawful means to impact on like 34 felonies. And let's not forget, the 2016 election, I believe it was 40,000 votes in Michigan ...

COOPER: Right.

GRASSO: ... Wisconsin ...

AGNIFILO: Eighty thousand votes in three swing states, yes.

GRASSO: ... and Pennsylvania and three swing states. And they - and we know through the testimony of ...

COOPER: Twenty thousand votes, I think in Wisconsin.

GRASSO: Yes. And we know the testimony of Hope Hicks who, who felt so bad about her testimony. She spontaneously broke down crying. She was the inside out path for the jury to know exactly the panic mode that the Trump campaign was in when the Access Hollywood story broke and she got the email in Trump Tower, October 7th of 2016 and Trump was practicing for the debate.

[20:10:08] They were in free fall. They were in panic. The RNC was talking about replacing Trump ...

AIDALA: Judge, you ran for DA ...


COOPER: Okay. All right. We're not going to settle this. We get the - we get your positions. What would you think that Blanche will go for on an appeal and what will they try to focus on?

AGNIFILO: So I think that - a couple of things, I think they will - we - they will take an approach where they will try to appeal everything that they talk about all the time, that the judge is conflicted and should have recused.

COOPER: What do you think is the best avenue for them?

AGNIFILO: I think there's really - there really is only one appellate issue that I think has substance and that is one that has potential merit is the jury charge regarding the thing we're talking about with the election and the ...

AIDALA: Absolutely.

AGNIFILO: ... and what was the object crime that made this a felony? It's complicated and jury - the number one area of reversal in New York is in jury charge because that's - that can be very tricky and you have to get it exactly right. And here ...

COOPER: And this is - as ...

AIDALA: Come on.

COOPER: ... as Arthur has ...

AIDALA: Come on.

COOPER: ... as Arthur has repeatedly stated that this is a very - this is creating something out of kind of a new cloth really.

AGNIFILO: Well, slightly - slightly. So I do think that is one area that has some merit and some validity. I don't think it's going to be reversed, but I think it's a genuinely legitimate substantive issue that will be taken very seriously by the courts.

COOPER: Judge, do you agree with that?

GRASSO: I absolutely agree.

COOPER: Yes, that would be the (INAUDIBLE) ...

AIDALA: I'm going to add to that. I also think ...

COOPER: I knew you would. AIDALA: That's my job. I also think whoever is Trump's attorneys are at the appellate level, you have to look at the inception of this, Anderson, because that's the grand slam. What Karen said would give Trump a new trial, but if he wanted to hit - get a grand slam and have it dismissed. He would have to go back and say the way this case was charged so uniquely, taking misdemeanors out of the statute of limitations and bringing them back in as felonies in the statute of limitations is something that the appellate court has to look at and say, is this how we want to treat every citizen in the state of New York?

COOPER: Arthur Aidala, thank you. Judge Grasso, Karen Friedman Agnifilo as well.

The political impact now, some new polling from Reuters-Ipsos, it appears to show Republican voters doing what Republican lawmakers have been doing since the verdict, namely falling in line. Take a look at the row in the middle of the screen. Post-conviction, 14 percent say they would not vote for the former president. Pre-trial, 24 percent said they would not vote for him if he were a convicted felon. Said another way, Republicans in this poll say they are now more likely to vote for the former president since he became a felon.

Joining us now two CNN political commentators from the right and left respectively, David Urban and Van Jones.

Van, I mean, you see Republicans support for the former president has grown post-conviction, at least in that poll. Should the Biden campaign be worried about a similar effect do you think in swing voters?

VAN JONES, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I think it's predictable. First of all, let's not forget, this was not the strong case. This is not a Donald Trump leading an insurrection against democracy. This is not Donald Trump stealing sensitive documents, that if I had stolen in the White House, I'd be in Guantanamo. This isn't all the abuse of women cases. This was the hush money case, falsification of records around some sex stuff.

When Bill Clinton got impeached for stuff like that, he went up 10 points. And so, it's not surprising that you're seeing this kind of effect. But I think that for - Democrats should, you know, let the Republicans fan and fainting, act like they're acting and, you know, they want to have January 6th every day tearing down American institutions and saying the system is corrupt.

But we've got to get back to talking about stuff regular Americans care about. This case was not going to be the case that brought Donald Trump's numbers down. It was always going to be the case that brought him up.

COOPER: David, former President Trump and his allies blasting the justice system as partisan, weaponized against Republicans, how do you square that with President Biden's son standing trial on gun charges in federal court next week, and for that matter, Democratic senator Bob Menendez standing trial on federal bribery charges in Manhattan? DAVID URBAN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I think both things can be true, can't they, Anderson? You know, this case was - you know, kind of the zombie case. Our colleague Elie Honig wrote a great piece that appeared today in New York Magazine, which I would implore everyone to read, about how this was cobbled together in a bespoke fashion by an incredibly political district attorney who won't prosecute other cases, but chose to revive this case.

So I don't see this having a lot of stickiness, as you pointed out in the poll. I think Republicans will fall in line. They're going to be more inclined to support Trump. We saw a historic fundraising day today, historic. In one day it raised over $50 million. Interestingly, 30 percent of those donors ...

COOPER: Haven't seen the filings yet, but - yes, okay.

URBAN: Okay. Well, they - generally, you don't lie about those things. You can verify it pretty shortly. But over 30 percent of those new donors, excuse me, of those donors are new people, new into the polls, putting money into their - from their coffers into the campaign.


And so if they're so motivated to open their checkbooks and support Donald Trump in campaigning, they're going to be, I think, equally as motivated to show up at the polls come November. And so I do think there'll be a little bit of a bounce, as Van said. You know, Clinton got a bounce. I think Trump will. But we're going to get back to the substance here. We're going to have a debate in June. CNN is going to host it. I look forward to seeing President Trump talk about the issues and if he sticks to that, I think there'll be clear sailing to November.

COOPER: You know, Van, there's - there are all of those questions about, you know, where will the Nikki Haley voters go? I mean, Nikki Haley has gone back to President Trump and to - for the former president.


COOPER: I mean, you know, why won't those, all those people who continue to vote for Nikki Haley in primaries follow her lead and go back to the former president?

JONES: Well, I mean, the Democrats got a good reasoning. Part of what's going on now is that Donald Trump is pulling off this trick of on the one hand coming across as the underdog who's beleaguered, he's the martyr, everybody is against me and kind of getting this sympathy vote. And at the same time, he's a top dog. He's like this almost like mob boss figure inside the Republican Party that makes everybody come and kiss his ring and kiss his toe and kiss his - so you're in this weird underdog, top dog kind of thing. And it's working for him right now.

And what's going to have to happen is once we get further into the summer and we have the debates and we have the conventions, Democrats got to refocus on what we can do to help ordinary people. We can't be too focused on Donald Trump. Trump is focused on Trump and so is everybody else. And so we've got to get out of this narcissistic trap he's put us in and talk about real issues and that's going to be what moves Biden, not this stuff.

COOPER: Van, I mean, you heard President Biden weigh in the verdict. How do you think he should approach this in the coming months?


COOPER: No. Yes, how should - yes, Van, how do you think Biden should approach this?

JONES: I think Biden did fine today, because he's defend - Biden should defend American institutions. He should defend that jury, defend the judges, defend the witnesses. He should defend American institutions and then move on to talk about the American people and let other people talk about Donald Trump.

COOPER: David, do you think Speaker Johnson, Tim Scott, Congressman Jordan, all the elected Republicans who rushed to condemn the verdict would have opposed prosecuting, for example, Barack Obama if he'd falsified business records, cover up a hush money payment or - I mean, they were all the ones chanting lock Hillary Clinton up.

URBAN: Well, no - I know. This - you know, this Alvin Bragg case sets a really bad precedent because to your point, what if this happened exactly in a, you know, in a Texas courtroom with a Texas - a really red district attorney, this opens a Pandora's box in the future, which I'm afraid that you're going to find some crazy person is going to pursue.

Alvin Bragg campaigned on going after Donald Trump.

COOPER: You mean no one's going to be able to have sex with a porn star and then pay somebody to cover it up and they're going to be able to get away with it?

URBAN: No, Anderson, that's not what this case is about. This case is about how you file something in your checkbook. This is not about all those other things. That may be the flashy, sexy stuff, but this is about documents. This is a really boring case at its heart. And the American people, I think, kind of shrug their shoulders by next week. This will be kind of off the front pages until it won't be again in July 11th, three days before the Republican convention.

You know, your previous guest, the judge is delusional. I think that he thinks that Donald Trump's going to serve prison time, you know that - you might as well just hand an election to him. I mean, the American people would go crazy, going to put Donald Trump in jail for a case. It's a misdemeanor. They're not putting people in jail who are robbing stores in New York. It's insane. Even Van would oppose that. But under first step back, Van would be participating in asking for the release of Donald Trump.

COOPER: Van, and then we got to go. JONES: I agree that he's not going to jail. Anybody who says he's going to jail isn't paying attention.

COOPER: By the way, our guest didn't say he's going to jail. He just was talking about the various legal aspects of it.

URBAN: He said he could go to jail. He said he could (INAUDIBLE) ...

JONES: Conceivably. He could be ...

COOPER: Yes. Conceivably, yes. And by law, conceivably, yes, he could go to jail.

JONES: He also could be condemned.

URBAN: I could conceivably grow hair tonight, it's not going to happen.

JONES: That's inconceivable. That is inconceivable.

COOPER: I'm not sure which one I'd place bets on, but ...

JONES: Yes. Hey, look, I ...

COOPER: David Urban, Van Jones, guys, thank you very much.

Coming up next, an assessment of what this conviction looks like through the eyes of the convict. Tony Schwartz, the man who ghostwrote "The Art of the Deal" joins us.

And later, President Biden's new ceasefire proposal for the Israel- Hamas war and how it's being received so far.



COOPER: It's no secret to New Yorkers who practically grew up with Donald Trump that the man always liked being first at things. The question now, how does he like being the first former president ever to be convicted felon. His appearance today at Trump Tower provided some clues. Joining us now, someone who spent months there with the former president writing "The Art of the Deal." More recently, Tony Schwartz is the author of "Dealing with the Devil: My Mother, Trump, and Me."

What was your thought as you heard the verdict?

TONY SCHWARTZ, AUTHOR OF DONALD TRUMP'S "THE ART OF THE DEAL": I was in a plane returning from Hong Kong and I wanted to jump up. I just woke up and discovered it on my texts and I wanted to jump up in the air and pump my fists in the air and yell it out to people. And I was able to resist it. But the enthusiasm for the verdict was there.

COOPER: What - I don't know if you've saw Trump's public comments since the verdict. What did you make of his response to it? I mean, it's not a surprise.

SCHWARTZ: Right, 100 percent predictable and he's still following the authoritarian playbook, which is repeat, repeat, repeat until people no matter how absurd it is, and this is absurd what he's saying - absurd - come to believe it. And he has been spectacularly effective at that. He plays by his own set of rules. And if the world has to play by conventional rules or his opponents do or choose to, and he doesn't have to play by the rules, it's an advantage for him and he is using that to advantage.

So it's astonishing that we are at a point in America where a guy gets convicted on 34 different counts by a unanimous jury of his peers and he is not going to - and he can go out and raise fifty million dollars. I know it hasn't been made official, but I'm sure he raised a ton.


And it's a measure of how bizarre the misunderstanding of who he is has become.

COOPER: Do you think it is a misunderstanding of who he is or do you think it's a full knowledge of who he is and just an embrace of what they - what people think he represents?

SCHWARTZ: Okay, so take this, 20 percent of black Americans are supposedly in the polls saying they're going to vote for Trump. Black people remain, as do many other groups, a marginalized group in America. And if there's anybody who's going to suffer under an authoritarian second Trump term, it's marginalized people. And yet they're saying they want to vote for him. So, no, I think it is a deep misunderstanding.

I think the only person who could justifiably say it makes sense to me to vote for Donald Trump as somebody who grew up in a authoritarian country, came here and says I loved the authoritarian I lived under and so I want another one.

COOPER: But do you think for many people, he - the former president, represents something rather than what his policies are on any given particular issue?

SCHWARTZ He represents, unfortunately to people, a victim. And many people in this dark - in these dark days feel like they're victims and he stands for them and he somehow is able to carry a flag that they can't wave very high. So yes, I do feel that they make that connection to him. The problem is he is as little a victim as you can be in this country based on all the privileges he's grown up with.

So it's, again, the reality is - all you have to do is listen to Trump for five minutes and reverse, say the opposite of what he just said, and you'll arrive at the truth. This is a man who I don't think almost ever now utters a word that is true.

COOPER: Are you surprised at all - I mean, given, look, this is - there's been a long ramp to where we're at now, but just the complete devotion by the Republican Party and the Republican Party now is completely in thrall of him. And he is still - I mean, despite on, you know, the evening of January 6th, when Lindsey Graham, you know, was upset at a moment ...


COOPER: ... a few hours.

SCHWARTZ: A few hours.

COOPER: But it is a remarkable - I mean, it is an unrecognizable party to anybody who grew up in the time of Ronald Reagan.

SCHWARTZ: I am surprised that never, I think, in my lifetime - so I've been here a bunch of decades now - have I seen a moment when self- interest was more problematic than it is right now, that the attention to your own concerns without a recognition of the impact on other people is so corrosive. And yet these Republican congress people and senators are standing up and saying things, first of all, that they know not to be true.

Do you think Kristi Noem came on, you know, a half hour ago on CNN and doesn't know that Trump is all the things that people say he is? She knows. And so does Marco Rubio. And so do all the people who are bowing before Trump. So they're making a short-term calculation, which is it's better for me right now to support Donald Trump. They will suffer too.

Donald Trump doesn't have loyalty. He only commands loyalty, commands loyalty, demands loyalty. He doesn't give loyalty. So all these people are so underestimating how pernicious he's going to be in their lives. I know he's going to be pernicious in my life. And as I've said before, I'm not staying around to watch if he gets re-elected.

But most - many people who would feel the same way I do don't have a choice. And these folks who think they're making the right choice to support Donald Trump don't recognize that he is actually their enemy, too.

COOPER: Tony Schwartz, appreciate you being with us. Thank you.

Just ahead, voters in a key swing district in Pennsylvania discussing the guilty verdict with our Danny Freeman. We'll be right back.



COOPER: More now on how the guilty verdict in the former president's criminal hush money trial is reverberating across the nation. First, in the swing state of Pennsylvania, a must win state for both the president and former president.

Hours after the verdict, our Danny Freeman went out into the swing state of Pennsylvania to hear what voters had to say. Here's what he found. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

LISA VON DEYLEN, PENNSYLVANIA TRUMP SUPPORTER: Thank you so much. Have a great day.

DANNY FREEMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): At the Trump store in Ben Salem, Pennsylvania, their newest product is their most popular.

FREEMAN: The verdict came down and you guys started printing this shirt.

VON DEYLEN: Yes. Yes, so it was actually kind of like Christmas morning when I walked in today. I saw a stack of these. It's like, oh, awesome.

FREEMAN (voice-over): The small shop, not affiliated with the campaign, became a gathering spot Friday for supporters of former President Donald Trump to buy merchandise and process Thursday's conviction.

VON DEYLEN: It didn't surprise me. I was highly disappointed, but I wasn't surprised at all.

FREEMAN (voice-over): Some Trump supporters were galvanized and upset over what they viewed as a rigged trial from the start.

ANN MARIE CLAMBELLA, PENNSYLVANIA TRUMP SUPPORTER: It just made me angry, because why is this even, you know, anything to do with what's going on now in the world. Like, we have like so much going on and are worried about this. Like, come on. I feel like justice was just thrown out the window.

RANDEE TECKLIN, PENNSYLVANIA TRUMP SUPPORTER: Restores my faith a little bit in the justice system.

FREEMAN (voice-over): But other voters we spoke with in nearby Warrington, Pennsylvania, were pleased with the outcome.

TECKLIN: I know that there are some people who won't change their mind no matter what. They will believe the things he says, like the judge is corrupt and everybody's corrupt except him, of course.


And I worry about that, but I'm hopeful.

TUNDE DANIEL, PENNSYLVANIA TRUMP SUPPORTER: I fell that the the jury did their job. They actually stood and to me, they turn out to be a hero of the day.

FREEMAN (voice-over): We spoke to all of these voters in Bucks County, one of the all-important suburban collar counties surrounding Philadelphia. President Biden won bucks by about four points, roughly 17, 000 votes. The margin here crucial in the critical swing state that President Trump lost in 2020 by just over 80,000 votes.

RUDOLPH RICHARDSON, PENNSYLVANIA UNDECIDED VOTER: I knew it was coming. Everybody knew it was coming.

FREEMAN: Really?

RICHARDSON: Yes, you can't escape the mouse strap every time.

FREEMAN (voice-over): Rudolf Richardson is undecided. He thinks the conviction actually made Trump more relatable. And while he says he voted for Biden in 2020, he's still not sure who will vote for in November.

FREEMAN: Could you imagine voting for someone who has been convicted of felonies?

RICHARDSON: I don't judge. I don't ever judge. So if there's all if you do right, if -- I say if you do what you're going to say you do, I'm more straightforward. If you're going to do what you say you're going to do, then that's the horse you got to go with.


FREEMAN (on-camera): Now, Anderson, we asked these voters if they thought this conviction would change anyone's mind heading into November. And frankly, most of them said no. The Trump supporters we spoke with said that they're more dug in now than they were before.

The Biden supporters that we spoke with said that they were skeptical that this conviction would shake up the race, at least in Pennsylvania. And that one undecided voter that we spoke with said this is still not his biggest issue. The thing that will drive him to the polls and will make him support one or the other in November is still the economy.

COOPER: All right. Danny Freeman --

FREEMAN (on-camera): Anderson?

COOPER: -- thanks very much.

Harry Enten joins us now with data from the new poll on the verdicts impact. So what does this show?

HARRY ENTEN, CNN SENIOR DATA REPORTER: Yes. I think Danny and his interviews that he took out pretty much give you a pretty decent idea that this is not going to be something that totally shakes up the race, right? This is not something that's going to launch Biden to a 10-point lead or Trump to a 10-point lead.

But this election, Anderson, is so close, so even the slightest, smallest change can make all the difference in the world. So take a look at that Ipsos poll now and compare it to where we were pre- conviction. And what do we see? We see that now Joe Biden leads in that poll among registered voters by two points.

Now that's within the margin of error. That's not a major change from the tie that we saw before the conviction took place. But I dug into the cross tabs a little bit. You know I love digging into those cross tabs.

COOPER: Oh, the cross tabs. They get you every time.

ENTEN: It's the thing that gets us each and every time. I know you love doing it too.


ENTEN: It's a great thing on a Friday night. And what I saw in those cross tabs was that while Republicans were very much sticking with Trump and Democrats were very much sticking with Joe Biden, there did seem to be some movement, a tiny bit of movement among independents, and that was slightly shifting the race towards Joe Biden.

And I know that there was another poll that also came out that showed perhaps slight movement towards Biden. Again, the key word here, slight, but still movement, none the less.

COOPER: And fundraising for the Trump campaign, I mean, we heard, you know, that number floating around, how much they've raised since.

ENTEN: Yes, you know, that $35 million figure, I believe, was what they were putting out. That is, they say that's nearly or about twice as much as the prior record. So clearly crime does pay for the former president, at least when it comes to fundraising.

But that's not a big shocker to me, Anderson, because that's something we've seen before. Look at the big Trump fundraising day so far. What do they all have in common? They all have to do with crime or being in court. You know, you go back last year, the New York arraignment, right? You go back last year, that Fulton County, that Georgia mugshot.

And now today or yesterday, what we saw again was another thing involving Donald Trump. And the courtroom, big fundraising, and this is something I think a lot of people need to get through their heads. Earlier on this year, there was all this talk about this Joe Biden fundraising advantage. Well, last month, Donald Trump and the RNC out raised the Democrats and Joe Biden.

This is probably going to be another month, May, another month, where Donald Trump is able to out raise Joe Biden. Money is probably not going to be the difference in this election. The fact is, both parties are going to have a lot of money to compete come November.

COOPER: And how are voters overall viewing this trial?

ENTEN: Yes. You know, so you have all that stuff showing Republicans, you know, being, coming out, being motivated, raising all that money for Donald Trump. And then you saw that first slide, right? That slight movement towards Joe Biden, and you kind of go, OK, those kind of seem maybe a little bit in contradiction.

Well, here's the thing. Donald Trump has come out and said, this trial is a sham, right? It's a fraud. All this stuff. But what do the American people overall think? Not just Republicans. And what do we see? They say, by a slight majority, that they believe that the court system in New York upheld the rule of law.

The minority, 46 percent believe it was politically motivated to hurt Donald Trump. But the fact is, most Americans on this particular point think that the court probably made the right call.

COOPER: All right, Harry Enten, thanks very much.

ENTEN: Thank you.

COOPER: Coming up next, remembering Michelle Obama's mother, Marian Robinson, who has died at the age of 86. We'll be right back.



COOPER: The mother of former First Lady Michelle Obama has died. Marian Robinson was 86 years old. A family statement says, in part, she passed peacefully this morning, and right now, none of us are quite sure how exactly we'll move on without her. Michelle Obama writes on social media, "My mom, Marian Robinson, was my rock. Always there for whatever I needed."

When the Obamas moved into the White House, so did she. In a 2012 essay in Essence magazine, Mrs. Robinson wrote that her job there was the easiest one of all. I get to be grandma.

More now on her life and legacy from Randi Kaye.


RANDI KAYE, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Marian Robinson was a fixture alongside the first family, often referred to as Barack and Michelle Obama's secret weapon.

MICHELLE OBAMA, FORMER FIRST LADY OF THE UNITED STATES: I want my mommy to stand up. This is the woman who keeps me grounded, who stays at home with my girls and makes sure that they're OK. I love you.


In a statement after her passing, the former president and first lady wrote, "Marian Robinson had a deep understanding that the world's roughest edges could always be sanded down with a little grace. They said she instilled in them, don't sweat the small stuff and know what's truly precious."

Marian Robinson was one of seven children and grew up on the south side of Chicago. Robinson studied to become a teacher before working as a secretary, according to the family's statement about her passing. She married Fraser Robinson and had two children, Craig and Michelle. According to her family, she taught her children to read at an early age, took them to drive in movies, and taught them to believe in the power and worth of their own voices.

In 2008, Robinson had a front row seat to history, when her son-in- law, Barack Obama, became president, and her daughter, First Lady of the United States. On election night, she was right there, holding Barack Obama's hand. Soon, she said goodbye to the south side of Chicago and moved to the White House, taking on the role of what she called First Grandmother.

Her husband had passed away in 1991. Here's what Marian Robinson told the Boston Globe at the time.

MARIAN ROBINSON, MOTHER OF MICHELLE OBAMA: I'm doing it, but I really want to do it. Its not even a job. It's like if somebody's going to be with these kids up in parent, that better be me.

KATE (voice-over): As the Obamas noted in their statement, we needed her, the girls needed her, and she ended up being our rock through it all. And she seemed to embrace her new role. There was the White House Easter Egg Roll, the Kennedy Center Honors, and a certain celebrity came with it, too.

She and Michelle Obama graced the cover of Essence Magazine, and she had the chance to travel the world with her daughter. This photo is from their trip to South Africa. According to her family, over their eight years in Washington, the only person Robinson asked to meet was the Pope. After the White House, Marian Robinson returned to Chicago.

Her family wrote today, "We are comforted by the understanding that she has returned to the embrace of her loving Fraser, that she's pulled up her TV tray next to his recliner, that they're clinking their highball glasses as she's catching him up with the stories about this wild, beautiful ride."

Marian Robinson was 86.


COOPER: And joining me now by phone is David Axelrod, former senior adviser to President Obama, who's now a CNN senior political commentator. David, I mean how are you remembering Mrs. Robinson tonight? I mean, I think she made an impression on so many Americans during her time at the White House.

DAVID AXELROD, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Oh, my goodness. And everybody who was -- who worked for him in the White House, and, you know, I worked with him and was his friend before that, you know, the word that Michelle used is such an important word grounded.

I've never met someone who is more centered, grounded unflappable. She didn't say much when she was in around, you know, the political people and so on, but there was this sense of sort of wisdom about her, you know. She raised these magnificent kids on the south side of Chicago, went on to Princeton and Harvard Law and business school and did amazing things in the world.

And, you know, her Fraser was someone who had MS, but worked at the water filtration plant in Chicago for 37 years. And they're just splendid examples. And you just felt that solidity all the time. I will tell you the last time I saw her, Anderson, I -- she came to an event at the Institute of Politics that I found at the University of Chicago.

Pete Souza, the White House photographer, was displaying some of the photos that he had taken in the White House, and she was there with a friend in the front row. And when it was done, all of these young people sort of gathered around her, and she was imparting all of this homespun wisdom about life to them.

I had honestly never heard her talk so much. And I heard her say to one of these kids, this is so much fun. They never let me talk when I was in Washington. So it was -- she was a great, great person. And one of the things that I really appreciated about her was she was completely resistant to the glitz and glamour of life of the White House.

She had very little interest in it. She didn't really participate that much in all of that. She didn't gawk at the stars or -- and she used to -- it would -- it actually was a source of concern because she would wander out of the White House by herself. And just wander around Washington with friends.


And she wanted to lead a normal life. And as soon as she could, she got back to the south side of Chicago, where she had spent her entire life other than those years in Washington. But the years that she spent there were so important. The Obamas could not have done what they did without her.

And you look at Sasha and Malia, their daughters and what magnificent young women they are. That's a lot of Mrs. Robinson and the just loving care that she devoted to them and the same kind of guidance that she poured into Michelle and Craig. Just a -- she's just a magnificent person and had a wonderful life. And, you know, she will be missed.

COOPER: As somebody who's raising kids who's, you know, don't have a grandma because she died a couple of years ago before they were born. I was thinking about, I mean, just what an extraordinary thing, what an extraordinary blessing for the Obama's to have Mrs. Robinson there when they were on the road or couldn't make it to dinner or whatever it was --


COOPER: -- to have that maternal role for the kids. And maybe even for President Obama who lost his mom, you know, I know long before, obviously, he won the White House.

AXELROD: Yes. Well, I think that relationship was really interesting. You know, Barack Obama was sort of rootless when he came to Chicago. He was looking for roots and he found it in the Robinson family. And Mrs. Robinson, as you point out, his mother died quite young. His father as you know, was not really a part of his life.

And Michelle's family became his family, and Mrs. Robinson was mother to him as well, and their relationship was very, very close. She meant a lot to him, and I know he to her. She was the center. You know, she was quiet. She didn't impose herself, but somehow she was, as Michelle said, the rock --


AXELROD: -- that everybody look to.

COOPER: Yes. Our thoughts are with the family tonight.

David Axelrod, thank you so much.

AXELROD: Thank you.

COOPER: Just ahead, more breaking news. President Biden today detailing a new ceasefire proposal between Israel and Hamas that might end the fighting and free the hostages. And Hamas has just responded. Details and analysis by our Barak Ravid next.



COOPER: ?More breaking news. Hamas says it views a new American supported Israeli proposal to end the war in Gaza, quote, "positively." Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said they will not end the war until Hamas is defeated. President Biden announced the three-part proposal hours after Israel's military confirmed it had expanded into central Rafah.

The proposal involves the release of some hostages, plus withdrawal of Israeli forces, followed by the release of all remaining living hostages, then reconstruction. President Biden indicated he was adamant about ending the war.


JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: At this point, Hamas no longer is capable carrying out another October 7th. It's one of Israel's main objectives in this war, and quite frankly, a righteous one. It's time to begin this new stage.

For the hostages to come home. For Israel to be secure. For the suffering to stop. It's time for this war to end, for the day after to begin.


COOPER: I'm joined now by our political and foreign policy analyst, Barak Ravid. Is this realistic at all?

BARAK RAVID, CNN POLITICAL & GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: I think the chances for this deal to go forward are not high, but they're definitely there. Meaning, when you look at the Hamas proposal from a few weeks ago, and when you look at the current Israeli proposal that Biden laid out in his speech today, there aren't a lot of differences. There are some differences, but they're not very big. And this is why I think that if you manage to get the parties into the negotiation table, it is not farfetched that you can get a deal.

COOPER: What do you think is the main sticking point? What -- where is the difference then?

RAVID: So the difference is wordsmithing, that's -- that, to be honest. And it's focused on the fact of how do you describe, how do you describe the kind of ceasefire that will take hold in Gaza? Is this the end of the war? Is this a cessation of hostilities? Is this a sustainable calm? It depends who you ask.

If you ask Hamas, that's the end of the war. If you ask the Israelis, this is just a long ceasefire. If you ask the U.S., this is a sustainable commerce, cessation of hostilities. At the end of the day, what happened was that in the last few weeks, the Israeli position came much closer to Hamas's position.

And right now, Israel says it is willing to go for a cessation of hostilities in Gaza. This is much, much closer to anything Israel agreed until today and much closer to what Hamas wants.

COOPER: I mean, Hamas for a long time has, you know, is returning civilians or returning some dead, you know, males of military age. That has been a big sticking point. Netanyahu said in a statement, or his office said in a statement, "The war will not end until all its goals are achieved, including the return of all our hostages, the elimination of Hamas's military and governmental capabilities."

Does that wording -- is that any different than how -- the wording from when this war began, the military and governmental capabilities?

RAVID: I think what is different is the next sentence in Netanyahu's statement. And he -- the next sentence said that the current Israeli proposal for a hostage deal enables or allows Israel to achieve exactly those goals. Meaning, what was interesting in Netanyahu's statement after Biden's speech, he did not attack the speech. He confirmed that everything Biden said was basically the Israeli position, and he did not push back.

And I think it was very interesting because, at least, I'll tell you my own opinion, I was expecting Netanyahu for some sort of a pushback.


RAVID: It didn't happen, and it's very, very interesting.

COOPER: Barak Ravid, appreciate it. Thank you.

The news continues. The Source with Kaitlan Collins starts now.