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Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees

Dems Say Biden Needs To Take On Trump, Not Do Victory Lap At Debate; Speaker Emerita Pelosi On Impact Of Dobbs Decision; Interview With Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D-CA); Paul Pelosi Attacker Found Guilty Of Five State Charges In California; Newly Released Video Shows Three Hostages, Including American-Israeli Hersh Goldberg-Polin, Being Taken On Oct. 7; Federal Prosecutors Make A Case For A Gag Order Against Trump In Classified Documents Case; Judge Cannon Appears Skeptical Of A Gag Order For Donald Trump In Classified Docs Case; WikiLeaks Founder Julian Assange Agrees To Plea Deal With Biden Admin That Will Allow Him To Avoid Imprisonment In US. Aired 8-9p ET

Aired June 24, 2024 - 20:00   ET




UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Because he's an anti-Semitic piece of (expletive).


(End VT)

MARQUEZ (on camera): So what you hear in that voter's voice is anger and that is driving a lot of people out. And keep in mind, Erin, these Democratic primaries, very, very small numbers turn out. There's about 250,000 Democratic voters total in this congressional district. A very small number will turn out. Bowman has tried to apologize and apologize for some of the things he said, but for many voters we're talking to, it's just not enough. Erin?

ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: Yes, that was incredible. I love the passion of that voter there. Thanks, Miguel. And thanks to all of you. AC360 starts now.

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: Tonight on 360, with just three days to go until CNN's first of the campaign presidential debate, there's breaking news on what the people helping President Biden prepare are telling him surprisingly not to talk about. We'll talk about that and much more with House Speaker Emerita Nancy Pelosi, who joins us exclusively tonight.

Also as new video emerges of a severely wounded Hersh Goldberg-Polin's abduction by Hamas terrorists, his parents talk about his fate and all the others who've been held hostage for 262 days.

Good evening. Thanks for joining us. We begin tonight with the breaking news. New reporting that President Biden is being steered away from the message many expected him to lean on heavily in Thursday's CNN debate and towards something more confrontational. CNN's Kayla Tausche has the story, joins us now from the White House.

What are you learning?

KAYLA TAUSCHE, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Anderson, we're learning that several prominent Democrats have been urging President Biden to take a different tack on the economy on Thursday's debate stage, arguing that his traditional inclination to lean on his record of accomplishments, the 15 million jobs that were created, the economy that's resisted a recession, simply are not landing with voters who continue to be frustrated about the cost of living and have given Biden an approval rating on the economy that continues to lag that of Trump.

In private conversations with members of the White House and the Biden campaign, four sources tell me that they have made this argument directly to Biden's team saying that the President needs to go after Donald Trump for cozying up to corporate America and draw that stark contrast between what his future economic plan would look like and what Trump's plan would look like.

President Biden, when asked by Erin Burnett last month whether the economy had time to turn around, he was defensive and he said it's already turned around, pointing to some of those data points that I just listed about polling potentially being wrong and Americans simply not getting it. So certainly there is some frustration on Biden's behalf that he's not getting credit where it's due, but he's going to have to strike a balance on the debate stage on Thursday of trying to prove that progress has taken place while still acknowledging that many voters don't feel it.

COOPER: Would this be a change in strategy just for the debate or for the campaign going forward?

TAUSCHE: It's been communicated as a change that needs to happen in the eyes of these sources who are in touch with the White House and the campaign over the homestretch of the race, which many see as kicking into high gear with Thursday's debate. They argue that the President has not shifted his messaging fast enough. He's continued to lean too heavily on his record, which clearly voters, according to his poll numbers, are not agreeing with.

Now, I reached out to the Biden campaign, who pointed to a new ad that's running in battleground states in both English and Spanish, where the President speaks directly to them. And he says that he understands their struggle to make ends meet and that things are not the way that they should be. He is also expected to talk a little bit more about this, the challenges that many Americans face and he's begun talking more about the work that still needs to be done.

Of course, his slogan is finishing the job, so we've seen a slower shift over the last few months in that messaging, Anderson. But top allies of the White House say it needs to be done faster and sharper.

COOPER: All right. Kayla Tausche, thanks so much.

For his part, the former president and his supporters have begun taking the traditional pre-debate step of lowering expectations and praising his opponent. But it's a tradition he can't seem to stick to. On Thursday, for example, he suggested that President Biden be a, quote, "worthy debater." By Saturday, he was back to completely making stuff up.


DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: So a little before debate time, he gets a shot in the ass and that's - they want to strengthen him up. So he comes out, he'll come out, I - okay, I say he'll come out all jacked up, right? All jacked up.


COOPER: New York Times Senior Political Correspondent and bestselling Trump biographer Maggie Haberman joins me now.

I mean, obviously, he has no shame and he makes stuff up, but it's very inconsistent. I mean, it's - one moment it's - he's a worthy debater and then it's he's going to be doing massive amounts of cocaine.

MAGGIE HABERMAN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Yes. It's a microcosm of Donald Trump and his team that we have seen over nine years now, which is his team wants him to do one thing, he does something else and he sometimes can stick to the script. But then he goes off of it, which is why predictions of how he is going to actually be in this debate are probably not worth very much. We know that he has been preparing for this debate in the way he does with sort of policy sessions as opposed to classic, you know, behind the podium matches.


But whether he is going to absorb what he's learning there and whether he is going to come in, you know, interrupting President Biden less than he did in 2020 in their first debate is an open question because he does what he wants to do.

COOPER: I want - I just want to play something else he said at the rally over the weekend.


TRUMP: How should I handle him? Should I be tough and nasty or should I be - she say, no - should I be tough and nasty and just say you're the worst president in history or should I be nice and calm and let him speak?


COOPER: I mean, do you think does he sort of change in the moment just riffing how he feels in the moment or is it something he kind of thinks of as he's going to bed that night and just thinks in his head, doesn't tell anybody?

HABERMAN: I think sometimes he plays around with these things on his own. I think sometimes, as you see, he poll tests it because he thinks it's going to please whatever crowd he's in front of. Whatever's on his mind is often what he does with these crowds and it could be anything. It could be, you know, he's been poll testing everyone about VP at various fundraisers and this is along the same lines.

I was thinking, though, as he was saying that, I think he will be both. I think he will likely interrupt less because I think that's the lesson - main lesson he took from the last debate or their first debate in 2020. And I think he will be very mean toward Biden. I will be very surprised if he is anything other than that.

COOPER: I want to bring in CNN political commentators, Republican strategist Shermichael Singleton, also former Biden White House communications director Kate Bedingfield.

First of all, Kate, what do you make of this new reporting from Kayla Tausche in your view? Should President Biden go on the attack rather than lean on his accomplishments?

KATE BEDINGFIELD, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes. Look, I think his primary task in this debate is to show people what the choice is and that is - he's got to do that by driving aggressively at Trump, going at contrast, making the conversation to the places where Trump is most vulnerable. We know that's abortion. We know that's January 6th and democracy.

So I think he absolutely needs to be aggressive. I am not of the mindset that that means he can't speak about his record in the debate. I mean, part of what he's trying to do is show people that he's done a good job in the first four years and he deserves four more.

And so he can absolutely talk about the things he's done to get our economy to a better place than many thought it would be four years ago. But he's got to do it in a contrast frame. He's got to do it by saying, you know, Donald Trump's vision for the next four years would make things more expensive for you.

And, you know, he's really got to make sure that he's never just talking about his own accomplishment, but driving it to a choice ...

COOPER: Well ...

BEDINGFIELD: ... because that's really what he's trying to do in this debate, show people.

COOPER: I mean, as you know, history shows for incumbents - incumbent presidents, it's very hard usually in their first debate. Even presidents - President Obama, David Axelrod has talked about this, who knew ...


COOPER: ... that history, they still find it hard. And part of the reason is because often they do feel, A, they haven't had people pushing back in their faces for the last four years. And also they do feel like they want to talk about their accomplishments, even if those accomplishments may not be felt or perceived by large numbers of people.

BEDINGFIELD: Yes, absolutely. I mean, it's a natural instinct. You can understand. You've been president of the United States for four years, you've been working hard, you've gotten things done. You feel like you want to make a case to the American people.

COOPER: And how do you overcome that?

BEDINGFIELD: So - well, some of it is about prep, some of it is about working through how you answer a question in a way that drives to the contrast you want and brings Trump in and doesn't just make it about reciting a laundry list of accomplishments that are important and meaningful, but may not feel in the moment like they're landing in people's lives.

So it's really thinking about how do you answer a question in a way that brings it back around to Donald Trump and isn't - doesn't just leave you sort of saying, well, look what I've done and that's enough, because it really is about a choice. And that's the theory the Biden campaign has had from the outset, right, that the way they win is by drawing this contrast ...

COOPER: Right.

BEDINGFIELD: ... and that when they have the Trump versus Biden comparison, Trump is unpalatable. And so that's - he's got to really stick to that in this debate.

COOPER: Shermichael, I mean, Trump is even rustier. He has not been in the arena really for the last couple of years.


COOPER: And he's been talking to - I mean, he's been in arenas, but just in long rambling soliloquies.

SINGLETON: Yes. I mean, look, it's been a while for the former president. It's been a while for the current president. I think it's important for both of these men, if I can take an objective analysis here, to really drive home what their plans are for immigration and for the economy.

If I'm advising President Biden, I want to be contrite. I want to acknowledge that while things have improved, I get that. For most people, you're not filling those things materially. This is what I'm going to do if given another four years.

If you're Donald Trump, you want to make a contrast from President Biden to say, look, he's been given four years. Things have not gotten better. Things have gotten worse by some metrics. This is what I will do to improve your life - in life. Both gentlemen are going to have to wrestle, Anderson. I would argue we're trying to accomplish two different things if they're wanting to achieve some level of measurable success at the end of this debate.

COOPER: Maggie, I mean, that sounds, for rational candidates, yes, that makes sense. For what this debate very could easily devolve into, I mean, you don't hear a lot of policy from Donald Trump. I mean, that's just not what his thing is.

HABERMAN: When you do hear it, it's in incredibly broad strokes and most of what you hear is him condemning President Biden.


And I expect that you will continue hearing that. I mean, I also think Trump is going to have a different set of arguments against him by President Biden than he has had in the past. What came up over, and over, and over again when President Trump was in office as president was questions about corruption, questions about investigations he was facing. Obviously, there's going to be, I think, references to the criminal case. And I'm sure that you will hear the current president talk about that.

But I also think Jen O'Malley Dillon, the campaign manager for Joe Biden or who's running the campaign, had a line with John Heilemann in Puck this morning in an interview where she basically made clear that the contrast is going to be, you know, I'm Joe Biden and I care about you. And Donald Trump only cares about himself and people like him and that's the - he's a rich guy contrast.

And so I do think you are likely to hear the incumbent president deal with that. I don't know what you're going to hear Trump say in response.

COOPER: Shermichael, I just want to play something of how the former president claims he's been preparing for the debates.


TRUMP: I'm preparing by taking questions from you and others, if you think about it. We had a great meeting just now in Philadelphia with the - at the shop. You saw that with all the wonderful people. And we just left Faith and Freedom in D.C. and that was incredible.

So, but I'm preparing by dealing with you. You're tougher than all of them.


COOPER: I mean, Shermichael, I don't think that's true. But if that is true, I mean, that's a gift to the Biden administration, obviously, because the softballs he gets from, you know, people at set up events are obvious.

SINGLETON: I mean, look, it's different. Every candidate is different. When I worked for Mitt Romney, he had a very, very arduous debate prep process. I wasn't a part of that. I was still growing in my political career, but when I worked for Newt Gingrich, a great debater, really smart guy, deep into the policy stuff. Dr. Carson was very different.

You really have to sort of prep candidates where they are, Anderson, based upon their strengths and weaknesses. I hope that the Trump campaign is focusing on that. But I want to say something here quickly to what Maggie was just saying. If President Biden spends a majority of his time talking about January 6 or talking about democracy or saying Donald Trump doesn't care about you, that does not provide an answer for what he's going to do for the next four years.

If I'm a voter and I'm thinking I already have my opinions on Donald Trump, I already have my opinions on Joe Biden, and all Joe Biden is talking about how terrible Trump is, but Trump is saying, okay, but the economy sucks under Joe Biden, but immigration is a problem under Joe Biden, but the world is on fire because of multiple foreign conflicts with aggressions from China, with aggressions from Russia under Joe Biden. That is a very, very clear contrast.

I get - bringing up the point maybe once or twice, but if I'm Biden, I'm talking about what I'm going to do for the next four years while understanding where people currently are. To do the alternative will be a drastic mistake, in my opinion.

COOPER: Kate, I mean, President Biden does sometimes get tripped up when - I mean, I think he has a natural inclination to go into details on policy, details on things he - other legislation he has passed in his long storied career, and that can get tripped up. And when you're facing somebody who doesn't need to go into any details on any policies, I mean, he used to have a policy when he was first running about going to Iraq and taking their oil and surrounding the oil fields with soldiers and just sucking all the oil out. I mean, it made no sense.

But what - you know, how do you argue against that?

BEDINGFIELD: Well, some of it, I think, is under - I mean, part of what they're trying to do here is illustrate that Trump is not fit to return to the Oval Office. So I don't think you - I don't believe you do that by having an extensive policy debate back and forth. I don't think that that's where most of the audience is going to be focused. I think that that takes you down rabbit holes that sort of feels disconnected from people's lives. We could talk about whether what that means about the state of politics, but I think that that's true.

So, you know, for Biden, I think really pushing to hold Trump accountable on the things that we know are some of his biggest political vulnerabilities, but also forcing him - I mean, sort of to Shermichael's point, sort of forcing him to talk about what are you going to do for the next four years, what are you going to do to help people across this country and really taking it to the offensive rather than spending all of that time sort of on the defensive, defending himself and his policies.

HABERMAN: Defend - you know, the problem with that, though, is that Trump has been president before. And so there are - for whatever reason, and there's a lot of debates as to why a big factor seems to be the post COVID period - there are a lot of people who feel like their lives were last good in 2019 and Trump happened to be president then.

And so that's - it's - he's - Biden is not facing a tabula rasa. COOPER: Right.

HABERMAN: He's facing somebody who has a record.

BEDINGFIELD: Absolutely not, but I also think that's part of Biden's task is to remind people of the things that they disliked about Trump. The thing the most, you know, the most outrageous immigration language, the things that were off putting to people in pre-COVID ...

SINGLETON: But most people agree ...

BEDINGFIELD: ... which is a hard, which is a (INAUDIBLE) ...

SINGLETON: But a lot of people agree with Trump's immigration policies.

BEDINGFIELD: ... but not - here's the thing about - but here's the thing about Trump's immigration policies, they agree with tougher policies. They don't agree or like the most hateful rhetoric. The saying immigrants poison the blood, family separation.


SINGLETON: No, I would agree with that.

BEDINGFIELD: I mean, those - getting Trump to - if Biden doesn't have to win on immigration. That's the other thing to remember, right? He has to mitigate damage for himself on immigration. He doesn't have to win the debate on immigration. So he's driving the conversation.

SINGLETON: He's losing on the economy and immigration though, Kate, two of the biggest issues.

BEDINGFIELD: If he's driving the conversation to the worst parts of Trump's immigration policy, that's a good thing for him.

COOPER: We'll leave it there. Kate Bedingfield, thank you. Shermichael Singleton and Maggie Haberman, thanks.

Coming up next, a 360 exclusive conversation with House Speaker Emerita Nancy Pelosi and what she expects to see in the debate stage and the issues she feels will motivate voters on Election Day.

And later, my conversation with the parents of Hersh Goldberg-Polin, one of eight Americans being held hostage in Gaza as disturbing new video of his abduction on October 7th is released.



COOPER: Given tonight's breaking news, Thursday's CNN presidential debate could be more confrontational than the contentious affair many already expect. It'll take place with a remarkable number of potentially historic issues on the table. There are, of course, the former president's crimes and upcoming criminal trials. There's his promise of retribution and vengeance against perceived enemies.

The Supreme Court could rule, perhaps even on debate day, on the question of presidential immunity.


And today marks the second anniversary of the court overturning Roe v. Wade. With all of that to talk about, we're joined tonight by California Democratic Congresswoman and House Speaker Emerita Nancy Pelosi.

Speaker Pelosi, thanks for being with us.

Two years since Roe v. Wade was overturned. Reproductive rights have been a motivating factor for voters in state elections and ballot initiatives since then. Do you think that will still be the case in November?

REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA): Yes, I do, as I did in the last election. In the '22 election, people said, oh, forget it, the Dobbs decision is in the rearview mirror. I said, no, it isn't. It's on the kitchen table. It's right there as an economic issue for people to make decisions about their families, if and when they want to have a family. It's an economic issue. It's a freedom issue.

So today is a temple marker, two years since the Dobbs decision. All over the country, the Democrats are having a drumbeat of support for women. Not to say we, as the Republicans do, we're not for birth control, but we're for controlling women. A big difference.

This was one of the accomplishments of his administration. What's his name? When he was there, overturning Roe v. Wade. His other big decision was a tax bill that gave 83 percent of the benefits to the top 1 percent. The worst job creation record since Herbert Hoover. At the same time, Joe Biden's - under his leadership, the public and private sector working together, 15 million jobs created.

Back to the kitchen table - what's his name says Obamacare sucks. I hate using that language, but not that much. Obamacare sucks. No, it doesn't suck. It cures. And Joe Biden has taken us to a place where we have expanded subsidies to lower cost for more people. And in the IRA bill, taking the cost of insulin from $500, $600 a month to $35 a month for seniors on Medicare.

So the cost of living, when we talk about it, we're concerned about it, but we also understand that access to healthcare and prescription drugs is an important part of that and certainly, the size and timing of our families.

COOPER: Well, you know, with this debate, incumbent presidents have often stumbled in their first debates. Obama, I mean, the list is a long one. What do you think President Biden needs to do in this debate? Because, I mean, we were just having this discussion about a number of those issues which you talked about and, you know, you cite it in a way that's very positive for a lot for the President to talk about. But there's a lot of people listening who don't feel their lives are better.

PELOSI: Well, here's the thing and I say this all the time, people don't vote for you because you say you deserve it for what you have done. What you have done just proves that you can get the job done. And, again, you're either giving a tax cut to the top 1 percent or you're creating jobs for the mass, an economy that bubbles up and grows from the middle.

So it - I always say to people when you're running, don't talk that you deserve it because of what you've done, but it - demonstrates that you are capable. And what Joe Biden will do, he will protect a woman's right to choose. He will, again, continue to expand the economy from the top - the bottom up. He will be there to protect our planet as they are trying to undo what we did before.

So we have to protect what we have done, but it's not enough. We need to show where we go from here ...

COOPER: Some ...

PELOSI: ... right down to that kitchen table. A woman's right to choose, job creation, lowering the cost of education, the list goes on and on.

COOPER: Some polls have shown President Biden lagging his previous levels of support with key parts of the Democratic base, young people, African-American voters, Latin voters, women.


COOPER: What do you - I mean, does that concern you? Does that keep you up at night?

PELOSI: Well, I saw a poll today that said among young people 18 to 30 that Biden was ahead by 23 points, that people did care about a woman's right to choose, LGBTQ and minority issues. They care about the planet and the rest.

So, again, we don't agonize. We organize to get out that vote. As you know, I came up through the ranks as a grassroots political organizer, which said we just have to own the ground in order to win elections. That mobilization requires a message that is inspiring and I'm so proud of Joe Biden.

And by the way, I have a nose for good campaigns, and I am so encouraged by what I smell and see around the country, owning the ground. So I feel pretty optimistic about it, and I feel very proud of Joe Biden and I know he'll do a good job saying what we're doing next ...

COOPER: You know ...

PELOSI: ... what we're doing next.

[20:25:06] COOPER: I have to ask you about what the former president has been saying about January 6th. The former president has referred to people who have been prosecuted due to the actions they took in January 6th, attacking police officers, breaking into the Capitol, he's referred to them as hostages. He's called them political prisoners. At a recent rally in Las Vegas, he called them warriors. I mean, do you - A, do you think if he's reelected, he will try to pardon January 6th defendants? But when you hear him use those terms, as somebody who was there and had to flee.


COOPER: I mean, what is that - how do - what do you think of that?

PELOSI: Well, I think it's very sick. You know, I always like to quote our national anthem, that we have to prove through the night that our flag is still there. And we have to prove through all this difficulty of all the misrepresentations that he is putting forth that it's really sad that people even fall for that. But the fact is, we have to prove our flag is still there by showing the difference.

We talk about honoring our first responders, our men and women in uniform. Yes, let's do that. Not - let's not praise and call warriors, people who attack them over - well over a hundred law enforcement, people injured that day. Some died within - because of that. This is, you know, again, we were there. We saw it.

But what's tragic is, as horrible as it was, and the members know how horrible it was, these people were coming through the dome - the dome of the Capitol that Lincoln built. Lincoln built that during the Civil War. And he said we must continue to build it, even though we're at war, to show the resilience of America.

Lincoln's dome, Nazi and Confederate flags under there, defecation, disrespect for the people who make the Congress run in terms of the workers, of course, a threat to all of the members of Congress. They were there. They saw it. Some of them even talked about it that night.

But then they changed their mind for some reason. They decided to engage in revisionist history about what happened that night. You want me to believe what I see with my very eyes or you want me to believe what you have to say about it? You, you, former president, who was incited an insurrection on the Capitol of the United States, this beacon of liberty to the world, an insurrection against the Constitution of the United States on the day the Constitution required us to validate the election, an insurrection against the Congress of the United States that now some of those members are changing their tune for some reason.

That's why we really just have to be - go right to why people vote. They vote for what it means to them. What does it mean to the education of my children, the - my - the cost of my healthcare, the fact that I will have a job, what it means to my pension, that's a big contrast between Democrats and Republicans. And in doing so, we can protect our democracy. Put to rest these lies that the President is putting forth. It's typical of his lack of respect for the Congress, the Constitution and the rest ...

COOPER: Do you ...

PELOSI: ... by what he did that day and what he's saying now.

COOPER: Do you have ...

PELOSI: But I don't think in other words, that's a responsibility that we have. But how do we win it at the kitchen table?

COOPER: Do you have confidence in the Supreme Court? I mean, the - you know, these - they've yet to rule on this immunity thing. All this thing about Alito and the flags and Clarence Thomas and his wife. I mean, do you have confidence in the Supreme Court?

PELOSI: No, I think they've gone rogue. It's most unfortunate. But it's unfortunate further to see what the other justice, what happened to the Chief Justice? Did he go weak or did he go rogue? I don't know. And that's the same thing with these members of Congress, if I can take it back to that, because as tragic as that night was and they were coming after me to put a bullet in my head, they were going to hang the - have a gallows for the vice president of the United States - but just a matter of hours when I called people back to the floor, overwhelmingly, the Republicans voted against the results of the Electoral College.

That was almost as heartbreaking and devastating as to see what those slobs that came in with their Confederate flags, and their Nazi flags, and the rest of what they came in to do to the capital of the United States.

So, no, I don't have confidence in the Supreme Court. I think that some of the decisions they - see, I respect their point of view.


If they have a point of view about a woman's right to choose, OK, but that's not what they're there to do, to advocate for a point of view. Run for Congress.

They're there to uphold the Constitution of the United States. And many of them said in their hearings for confirmation, they said that they supported. They supported the precedence of the court, supported the privacy in the Constitution. And what did they do? They vote their opinion on policy rather than the oath of office to uphold the Constitution of the United States.

So I want us to get back to a place where the three branches of government as our founders initiated are respected across the board. But I don't have a lot of confidence in this court, unfortunately. I say that with a heavy heart.

COOPER: We have to go, but I'd be remiss if I didn't ask the person whose name I shall not say was convicted of the attack on your husband. How is Mr. Pelosi doing?

PELOSI: He's OK. I mean, he's making progress. He's about 80 percent there physically. Traumatically, it's terrible. But as we pray about it, we're always worried about other people and how the incitement of these people for what the things that they say, the lies that they tell to incite somebody to come into my home and that. And I just worry about other elected officials.

Whatever their point of view is, whatever side of the aisle they're on, that they not be subjected to that, because that undermines our democracy in such a very serious way. But what was awful about it, Anderson, was that they made jokes about it. The president of the United States said ridiculous things -- the former, what's his -- you know, made ridiculous statements.

His son said stupid things. Some of his supporters, and you know who they are, said awful things. And that was very hurtful to us, to our children, to our grandchildren, but more importantly, to our country. Who do they think they are? Well, you know what they are? They're going to be losers in just a few months, once again. Indicted, impeached, convicted, loser, again.

COOPER: Speaker Pelosi, thank you for your time.

PELOSI: Welcome. My pleasure. Thank you.

COOPER: Just ahead, new video showing what happened to a young American-Israeli citizen, Hersh Goldberg-Polin, minutes after his hand was blown or shot off when he was kidnapped by Hamas. He's been held in Gaza for 262 days now. I'll speak with his parents in a moment.



COOPER: Tonight, as Israel's Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu walks back the suggestion that he could strike a, quote, "partial deal" with Hamas to release some hostages in Gaza, we have newly released video showing the kidnapping of three Israelis on October 7th. The video surfaced last week. It was released today by the group representing the hostages and their families.

One of those hostages shown is American-Israeli citizen Hersh Goldberg-Polin. A few days after Hersh was kidnapped, an Israeli soldier showed me this video of a young man whose left hand had blown or shot off being loaded into a pickup truck. I didn't know at the time it was Hersh until a few days later when I happened to interview his parents, Jon and Rachel, who mentioned that their son's hand had been blown off. But they were unaware of this video.

I then called them after the interview and told them about the video I've seen and I sent it to them. They had no indication if Hersh had survived his wound until just two months ago when a propaganda video, this is a still image from it, was released by Hamas with Hersh in it.

Now, tonight, there's this new video showing what happened moments after the first video ended when Hersh was forced with other injured hostages into the back of that pickup truck. And I want to warn you the video is graphic.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): God is greatest and all praise is to God. There are the dogs. They are the dogs. These are the dogs, at the corner (INAUDIBLE) on it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Take a selfie. I will take a selfie with you. Come hold this (INAUDIBLE).

(Speaking Foreign Language)


COOPER: Earlier today, I spoke with Hersh's parents, Jon and Rachel.

Rachel, when you first saw this extended video, what was your reaction to it?

RACHEL GOLDBERG, HERSH GOLDBERG-POLIN'S MOTHER: I actually first saw it just a couple of hours ago. Because similar to when you shared the video that you shared with us back in October, and I didn't watch it for a chunk of time, I had the same reaction with this. The Army came to show Jon the video last week, and I didn't even see it today.

We were doing some media about it, and I hadn't seen it. But I did see it a couple of hours ago. And so I'm still digesting it. And, obviously, as a parent, I mean, it's a video that's just heartbreaking and sickening and, you know, difficult to put into words how I just feel broken for him and for the other young people in that pickup truck.


COOPER: Jon, so you saw the video last week, I guess, what -- when you -- what was your initial reaction? What's -- is there something -- some part of it that stood out to you that you felt was important?

JON POLIN, HERSH GOLDBERG-POLIN'S FATHER: There wasn't a specific part. First of all, Rachel, I agree that it's horrific, it's gut wrenching, it's a video that no parent wants to see if their kid, nobody wants to see if their loved ones, but when the other families approached and said that they want to release it to the public, we right away said yes and that was because it's important.

It's important that people in the world see the videos, understand what's happening, understand what happened on October 7th, and most particularly that leaders of the world see it. We families of hostages don't need any reminders. We don't need any wake up calls. We work 24 hours a day, seven days a week for the release of our loved ones.

World leaders? Maybe they need a wakeup call.

COOPER: It's also -- I mean, his hair is being pulled the -- hearing these terrorists rejoicing talking about taking selfies with them, for them, I mean, they are not viewing these Hersh or the other people in this truck as people. I mean, this is a -- to hear that, it's just a reminder of the -- and to know what occurred minutes before this video was taken, you know, in the preceding hours, not just on that day, but specifically to Hersh and the others who were in that shelter. I mean, people had -- these same people had just taken part in the slaughter of young people in this bomb shelter.

GOLDBERG Right. And that's part of what is so hard to wrap my mind around when I'm looking at Hersh and he's covered in blood and he has his arm out to the side because as you can see in the video from the elbow down, there's a jagged bone sticking out.

And then to see the person grab him by the hair and pull his head up and he says something about, you know, let's take a selfie, or take a selfie of me with him. And knowing that Hersh had just seen his best friend blown up and 17 others killed in that bomb shelter and just trying to process what he could have in any way have been trying to think about or imagine was in store for him. It's just devastating.

COOPER: You had so much concern about, you know, whether Hersh had made it out just from his injury alone. You see a tourniquet being put on at later on in the video that -- I mean, do you think that probably saved his life? I mean, clearly they wanted to at this stage, they knew the value in -- the sick value in keeping him alive as a hostage.

GOLDBERG: Well, I'm happy that for whatever reasons, that he was obviously treated because as we all know, on day 201, we had a video released that shows her with a stump where that jagged bone had been. So, obviously, there was some real treatment that happened.

Although we've been told by intelligence, medical teams, and several surgeons who've just reached out to us saying he definitely needs at least one, if not two more surgeries. But we know from day 201, thank God, that he is alive.

COOPER: I know you've had a lot of contact with the Biden administration, Rachel. I know you were on a call with President Biden early on with other American families. Does it -- I don't even know how to ask this question. I don't know if it's appropriate to ask, but Hersh is American, and there are other Americans who have been held hostage for 262 days, and there are people from other countries as well, many other countries, as you and I have talked about before, who have been held hostage.

Do you feel like Hersh's name is known by as many Americans who should know his name and the other Americans who are being held hostage?

GOLDBERG: Oh, definitely. We know for sure that the vast, vast majority of Americans have no idea that there are eight U.S. civilians being held hostage right now while we're having this conversation.


There are eight U.S. citizens being held hostage in Gaza for 262 days in an active war zone and it's a terrifying situation. And the fact that people don't even know the eight and have no idea who they are is really disheartening.

POLIN: Hersh, Keith, Sagui, Omer, Edan, Itay, Judy, and Gadi. Eight Americans, those are names that we wish people would know and talk about and learn their stories and advocate for them.

COOPER: Jon and Rachel, thank you very much.

POLIN: Thank you, Anderson.

GOLDBERG: Thank you.

COOPER: I just want you to hear the full names of the eight Americans who were taken hostage in Gaza, along with Hersh Goldberg-Polin. There's Keith Siegel, Sagui Dekel-Chen, Omer Neutra, Edan Alexander, there's Itay Chen, Judy Weinstein Haggai, and Gad Haggai. And all are still in Gaza, unknown exactly their conditions.

Next, two crucial hearings today in the former president's slow moving classified documents case.



COOPER: More hearings today in Judge Aileen Cannon's long journey through the former president's classified documents case. This time she heard arguments on whether the defendant's repeated comments about the FBI pose enough of a threat to law enforcement to justify a gag order. Judge Cannon appeared skeptical. She also questioned both sides on the defense's claim that the special counsel's office is improperly funded but did not rule on either motion.

Joining us now is former Federal Judge Shira Scheindlin, also CNN Senior Legal Analyst, Elie Honig. So if Cannon grants this gag order, that'd be the third gag order for the former president. Can you compare the gag order requests in this to the others?

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: So the New York state trial that we just had, the gag order that was in place, was intended to protect the trial. So it was fairly specific. It said Donald Trump cannot comment publicly. Any party cannot comment publicly about the jurors, the witnesses or essentially the courtroom staff.

The order that DOJ is seeking here is different. What DOJ is asking basically is, we don't want him making comments that could endanger law enforcement officials. And you remember a couple months ago, Trump started saying this ridiculous false theory that when DOJ searched his house, the FBI searched his house, there was some plan to potentially assassinate him. An outrageous, inflammatory statement. So DOJ's trying to tamp that down.

COOPER: Right.

HONIG: I think Judge Cannon is a bit resistant because she says that DOJ needs to show something more specific than just generalized concern that someone might do something. And she said, we haven't seen any specific example. I mean, if you look at Trump's history, though, there are plenty of examples.

COOPER: Yes, I mean, Judge, there were no affidavits from particular FBI officials or anything. Do you think the judge is right to be skeptical?

SHIRA SCHEINDLIN, FORMER U.S. DISTRICT COURT JUDGE: I do. But I think there's a way to thread the needle here. I think that the only thing he's saying that's endangering anyone is they're out to kill me. Biden's out to assassinate me. FBI wants me dead and tried to kill me. He needs to stop saying that because I think that endangers law enforcement writ large.

He doesn't know these FBI agents. Their names have been redacted. I'm not sure they're in specific danger. But we've had incidents that based on things he said, some of his -- I was told to use the word voters, not followers in the last episode, so, in the last segment.

But his voters have done bad things. They have walked into an FBI office, threatened to kill people. Somebody just got terrible hate mail, I guess it was Alvin Bragg, they would kill him. So things happen when people speak the way he's speaking and it's so obviously false. So I would try to thread the needle and say, these are the only two things you can't say.

Surely you can give those two up. But you can go on. I say everything else. I'm not going to give a full blown gag order.

COOPER: And Elie, what do you make of the Trump motion targeting or alleging the special counsel's office is unlawfully funded?

HONIG: It's been made before and rejected before by other litigants in Trump's position. It was made to try to disqualify Robert Mueller. It was made to try to disqualify David Weiss, the special counsel in the Hunter Biden case. Prior judges have rejected those arguments.

It's not a ridiculous argument. Essentially, the argument is, the funding isn't coming through DOJ, it's coming from a general item. And also, if somebody's going to be given the powers that special counsel's given to indict and try federal cases, they should be nominated by the President and confirmed by the Senate.

However, the rulings so far in other cases have been, this is the AG delegating, and the Attorney General has the power to do that. So I think Judge Cannon's going to reject that. And if she doesn't, I look for Jack Smith to appeal and probably get her overturned.

COOPER: Judge, there was tension between Judge Cannon, one of the prosecutors on the case. She admonished him saying she didn't, quote, "appreciate" the prosecutor's tone. He apologized for that. Is that how you would have handled the situation?

SCHEINDLIN: I -- it's happened once.

HONIG: I've been there.

SCHEINDLIN: It happened once with your guest. But, yes, so when a judge is really fed up with somebody's behavior, they might call the person out the way she did.

COOPER: What was Elie's tone like?


COOPER: Oh, OK. Well, that's a long time ago.

HONIG: I was young. I was 30 probably at the time.

SCHEINDLIN: It's a long time ago. Long time ago. But on this issue about the funding, I think it's part and parcel of the same issue that she heard yesterday as to the appointment itself. It's related. It's all one argument. And they're trying to distinguish disappointment because he's never been confirmed by the Senate.

Almost every other special master ever at one time or another was confirmed by the Senate. So they're saying this is a unique case. He's just a private citizen picked up and now he's -- is he a primary officer or is he an inferior officer?

If he's a primary officer, he must be confirmed. So they have to say he's not, he has a boss, he's an inferior officer. Well, if he has a boss, then Garland has to look over his shoulder and tell him what to do, but Garland said he's independent.


COOPER: Elie, do you think she's slow walking this, or is it over -- in over her head?

HONIG: She's definitely not fast walking this, but I don't think she's actually out of line here with how much time this has taken at all. I mean, this case was indicted nine months ago or so. It would be surprising if this were to get to trial --

COOPER: Wasn't there a whole thing if she wanted jury -- going -- held a hearing on jury instructions long, like --

HONIG: That was bizarre. I mean, that was way premature. That's actually the opposite of the criticisms against her. I think it's clear Judge Cannon does not care at all about getting this case tried before the election. I think it's clear as a result this case will not be tried before the election.

But if not for the looming election, I don't think anyone would find nine months between indictment and where we are now to be out of the ordinary.

COOPER: All right, Judge Scheindlin, thank you so much. Elie Honig as well, thank you.

Up next, breaking news. We'll be right back.


COOPER: WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange is heading back to Australia, a free man. He was released from a prison in the United Kingdom after agreeing to plead guilty to a felony charge related to his alleged role in one of the largest U.S. government breaches ever of classified material.

It was part of a deal with the Justice Department allowing him to avoid prison here. He spent 1,901 days behind bars in Britain.

That's it for us. The news continues the source of Kaitlan Collins starts now.