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Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees
Trump: Civilian Award Is "Much Better" Than Medal Of Honor; Both Vice Presidential Candidates' Military Service Attacked By Their Political Opponents; Harris' Economic Plan Builds On Earlier Biden Administration Proposals; Democrats Hope To Build Momentum At National Convention In Chicago Next Week, Avoid 1968 Comparisons; Chicago Prepares For The DNC To Begin On Monday; CNN Gains Access To Ukrainian-Held Russia; Ukrainian President Zelenskyy: Ukraine Has Captured The Russian Town Of Sudzha; Wisconsin Republicans Say Reliable Democratic County Key To Trump Winning The State. Aired: 8-9p ET
Aired August 16, 2024 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
WILL RIPLEY, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, there's not a whole lot else to do when you're sitting kind of waiting in-between shoots in North Korea so I'm very familiar with some of that music. It's still stuck in my head all these years later.
The priority of Kim Jong-un's government is that there's a television in every single home, which might surprise a lot of people. I think of North Korea as this poor place. But most homes, if not every home and every public space has a television because of the power of having this propaganda on 24/7.
Keeping the Kims in power is crucial -- information is crucial, so Peter says he watched this for one full day, dreamt about it two nights in a row, and he's in Canada. Imagine Sara, if you lived in North Korea.
SARA SIDNER, CNN HOST: Will Ripley, thank you so much for that piece and thank you for joining us.
AC360 starts right now.
[20:00:43]
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, "ANDERSON COOPER: 360": Tonight on 360, after Donald Trump says a civilian award is better than a military one because civilians are un-wounded and alive to receive it, we'll look at his history of comments about troops who have been wounded or captured.
Also, Vice President Harris unveils her economic vision, an aim she says is helping the middle class, we'll look at what it does, whether it will work, and what voters make of her own on the subject.
And later, CNN's Nick Paton Walsh inside Russia with Ukrainian forces who've been letting Vladimir Putin know what it feels like to have your country invaded.
Good evening. Thanks for joining us.
We begin tonight, keeping them honest about something the former president said last night at his New Jersey club while attempting to praise one of his megadonors, Miriam Adelson.
She's the widow of Sheldon Adelson, who was also a Republican mega donor.
Trump awarded Miriam Adelson the Presidential Medal of Freedom in 2018, but he recently insulted her. It seems an aide to Trump had sent Adelson a series of angry text messages in his name last month.
Yesterday, he was trying to make amends. Here's what he told her.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP (R) FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I have to say, Miriam, I watched Sheldon sitting so proud in the White House when we gave Miriam the Presidential Medal of Freedom, that's the highest award you can get as a civilian. It's the equivalent of the Congressional Medal of Honor, but civilian version. It's actually much better because everyone gets the Congressional Medal of Honor, that's soldiers, they were either in very bad shape because they've been hit so many times by bullets, or they're dead.
She gets it and she's a healthy, beautiful woman, so.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
TRUMP: They are rated equal, but she got the Presidential Medal of Freedom.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: So, a couple of things. First of all, what he's calling a Congressional Medal of Honor is actually called the Medal of Honor. It's this country's highest award for military valor. He was president, you'd think he would know what this nation's highest award for valor is actually called.
It dates back to the Civil War. It's given in the name of Congress.
The Presidential Medal of Freedom is the country's highest award for a civilian and that dates back to the early 1960s.
Now, why the former president felt the need to say that the Presidential Medal of Freedom is better, because often those who received the Medal of Honor had been wounded or killed is unclear.
Today, a campaign spokesman told "The New York Times" that Mr. Trump's comments last night referred to, "How it can be an emotionally difficult, experience to give the Congressional Medal of Honor to veterans who had been wounded or tragically killed defending our country as he proudly did when he was commander-in-chief.
Now, there's no record of Donald Trump making inappropriate remarks at those ceremonies, but there is a long record of what he said about military service, wounded, and fallen troops. And those who have been captured and tortured like John McCain.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: He hit me, he's not a war hero. He's a war hero because he was captured.
I liked people that weren't captured. Okay, I hate to tell you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: So that was in 2015, it seems shocking then, but now it seems like part of a pattern. When he was president a welcoming ceremony for the newly appointed Joint Chiefs Chairman Mark Milley, moments after he hugged a severely wounded soldier, Luis Avila, several witnesses told "The Atlantic's" Jeffrey Goldberg that then President Trump told Milley he never wanted to see the man again.
Here's what those witnesses said Trump told Milley and I quote, "What do you bring people like that here? No one wants to see that, the wounded." That was shocking, yes, but also it seems part of a pattern.
Even former Trump chief-of-staff and retired four-star General John Kelly told CNN's Jim Sciutto about what Trump said about troops at public events. And I'm quoting now from Jim's book, "The one thing he didn't want, he didn't want any wounded guys," Kelly recalled. "They had two groups of amputees, people in wheelchairs. I don't want those. They don't look good." Kelly recalled Trump saying to him.
Kelly also told Jim that Trump would often ask him, "Why do people all say that these guys who get wounded or killed are heroes?"
In a statement to CNN's Jake Tapper, General Kelly was even more categorical describing his former boss as, "A person that thinks those who defend their country in uniform or are shot down or seriously wounded in combat, or spend years being tortured as POWs are all suckers because there is nothing in it for them."
He also described Trump as, "a person that did not want to be seen in the presence of military amputees because it doesn't look good for me" and "a person who demonstrate the open contempt for a Gold Star family," for all Gold Star families on TV during the 2016 campaign and rants that our most precious heroes who gave their lives in Americas defense are losers and wouldn't visit their graves in France.
[20:05:08]
The former president has denied he said any of those things. A retired Marine four-star general and Gold Star father himself says he did.
On the other hand, the former president's running mate defended him.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JD VANCE (R) VICE PRESIDENT NOMINEE: This is a guy who loves our veterans and who honors our veterans. I don't think him complimenting and saying a nice word about a person who received the Presidential Medal of Freedom is in any way denigrating those who received military honors.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: If what JD Vance is defending where the first such remarks from Donald Trump, that would be one thing. It's not even one of the first dozen.
Even in jest, the message is clear -- this is from 1998 conversation Donald Trump had with Howard Stern, but it's not the all too familiar clip about avoiding STIs because being his personal Vietnam.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
HOWARD STERN, RADIO SHOW HOST: I even went as far to say that you are braver than any Vietnam vet because you're out there screwing a lot of women.
TRUMP: Getting the Congressional Medal of Honor in actuality.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
COOPER: Joining us now former Republican Congressman and Navy Seals Scott Taylor and Adam Kinzinger, also a former Republican Congressman, currently lieutenant colonel in the Wisconsin Air National Guard.
Congressman Kinzinger, I mean, what do you make of these comments about the Medal of Honor?
ADAM KINZINGER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I mean, this is a pattern with him and I think, look, I guess in a way I feel bad for him because he's totally incapable of understanding what sacrifice is and appreciating it, and I don't even say that as a gratuitous hit. I mean, he's just -- he clearly does not understand.
If you call somebody that dies for your country a sucker and a loser, you don't get, you literally are incapable of understanding doing something bigger than yourself.
And to see him say that about Miss Adelson who probably a great person, I have met her before, but he gave her the Medal of Freedom because she was a big donor to the campaign and that's why he's trying to get back in her good graces and he'll do it at the cost of the Medal of Honor.
It really is disgusting. I mean, honestly, I just can't wait till we flush them down the toilet of history and never talk about Donald Trump again.
Congressman Taylor, well, how to you see it?
SCOTT TAYLOR (R) FORMER VIRGINIA CONGRESSMAN: Well, thanks, hi, Anderson, it's good to be with you of course and Adam, as well, I have respect for him because we served together in Congress. But I see it differently, of course. I know you're playing a bunch of stuff, a bunch of old clips, but talking about today, which seems to be the headline, I actually see where it was coming from quite frankly, these are two very different things.
I had been in the room with President Donald Trump for a couple Medal of Honor ceremonies. I've been with him in Dover at a dignified transfer to receive the body of one of my fallen brothers.
I've seen him. I think he has tremendous respect for our military. I've also been there with President Obama not with him, but he was there as well, a dignified transfer in Dover who was also, as Adam said, didn't understand like sort of military culture and uncomfortable But I wouldn't say that he didn't have respect, of course, for the fallen.
But when you look at these two different ceremonies, I see what the president was trying to say that look, the Medal of Honor is somber, it's sad, it's stoic. The Presidential Medal of Freedom of course, the ceremony that's celebratory.
People are happy they're joyous. It's a different thing.
And let me tell you something else and I hope to God that none of your audience ever has to attend a Medal of Honor ceremony or has to attend a dignified transfer in Dover.
COOPER: Congressman, do you believe retired General John Kelly, when he says that Trump referred to fallen soldiers as suckers and losers and all the other things that Trump said?
TAYLOR: I have nothing but respect for General Kelly. I know him personally, worked with him, of course, when I was in Congress, but I'm not going to get in-between that. I don't know what his recollection was. I don't know what the context was at all.
All I can tell you is about my time with President Trump and everything that I've seen. And listen, I also don't take this very lightly. When, I got the question from your network, I didn't want to just say my opinion and be a talking head.
I talked to Medal of Honor recipients today that I know. I spoke to military members and veterans to get their opinion as well, and they felt the same way as I do.
COOPER: Congressman Kinzinger, we spoke last week about the criticism that Governor Walz, who served in the Army National Guard for 24 years, has been getting, saying in 2018 that he carried weapons "in war", which certainly gave the impression that he was in combat, which he was not.
The Harris-Walz campaign said he misspoke, he's also been criticized for retiring from the guard to run for Congress several months before the unit was deployed to Iraq and for referencing a rank he attained but did not retire with.
Congressman Taylor has been very critical of Governor Walz online. I want to talk to him about that in a moment, using the #stolen valor.
Has anything changed in your view, Congressman Kinzinger about Walz since last we spoke?
KINZINGER: No and, you know, I love you, Scott, but you know, when somebody's been in the military after 20 years, they can retire whenever they want. And if the military can't have you retire, then they can stop loss you and by the way, he was replaced with somebody that went and did his job seemingly just fine that seems to have a personal grudge.
[20:10:16]
We also know how you can sit in a billet with a different rank and retire with the lower rank, particularly if you did not stay in that rank for three years.
I think it's one thing to say he shouldn't have said I carried a weapon in war, he shouldn't have said that obviously, but it is another thing to call that stolen valor.
I mean, stolen valor is, he was a guy running for State House. I didn't hear many of the Trump people go after who claimed to be a helicopter pilot in Vietnam despite not joining until 1975 and being enlisted, not a worn officer, enlisted. But that's stolen valor when you lie about everything that you did.
But when you say I'm going to retire after 24 years,, four of which by the way, were after 9/11 all within it the deployment zone, because I want to run for Congress, well, that's okay to do and particularly because he didn't necessarily know the unit was leaving.
But again, even if he did, you can retire after 20 years. That's your right and the military can't stop you if they need you to stay.
COOPER: Congressman Taylor, as you know, federal law, there is a federal law that deals with stolen valor. It's called the Stolen Valor Act. People who commit fraud involving military medals, decorations, monetary gain. When you say stolen valor, are you suggesting the Governor Walz is comparable to people who do that?
TAYLOR: Let me address a couple of things. Firstly, guys, again, I appreciate Adam and others agree with him a little bit of course, and I think he was very articulate about not actually addressing what you were saying, which you brought up, the fact not that he could retire or he could not retire.
I haven't said that. Let's now leave that up to his own troops to discuss that and give their opinion on that, nor many others who have opinions on that on both sides.
But I watched many videos of Governor Walz, who again, I think is a nice guy, I served with him in Congress. We worked on one of my veteran's bills that we passed together, but that was before I saw all of these videos where he's very clear saying he carried a gun in combat, which of course is stolen valor, of course and when he said so many times in so many videos that he retired at a certain rank that he did not.
So, I'm not questioning whether he can retire or not. I will say as a former junior enlisted sailor, that when you're doing a workup, when you know you're deploying, you're looking up to the senior enlisted folks for confidence, for training, for leadership. And when you're senior enlisted guy, is training with alongside you ready to go to war and then he just bails on you. That's pretty bad. That's not good. That wasn't my biff though.
My biff, of course, is the fact that he's on video numerous times claiming to do things that he did not do. And to me, that's stolen valor.
COOPER: Adam Kinzinger, Congressman Scott Taylor, appreciate it very much.
Scott, I know we're going to talk to you coming up in another segment.
Much more now on the Vance-Walz back-and-forth, specifically the facts behind that controversy. CNN's Sara Murray has more.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SARA MURRAY, CNN POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice over): It's a novelty in American political history.
VANCE: After 9/11, I did what thousands of other young men my age did in that time of soaring patriotism and love of country.
I enlisted in the United States Marines.
MURRAY (voice over): Two men who enlisted in the military.
GOV. TIM WALZ (D) VICE PRESIDENT NOMINEE: For 24 years, I proudly wore the uniform of this nation.
MURRAY (voice over): Now vying for the vice presidency.
ALLISON JASIOW, CEO IRAQ AND AFGHANISTAN VETERANS OF AMERICA: It is truly remarkable. And I think it says a lot about the promise of our country.
MURRAY (voice over): Minnesota Governor Tim Walz and Senator JD Vance didn't see combat action, but both spent years in uniform.
WALZ: At 17, I joined the Army National Guard.
MURRAY (voice over): For Walz, that meant cleaning up after tornadoes, responding to floods, and handling heavy weaponry in an artillery unit, also known as:
SGT. MAJ. JOSEPH EUSTICE (RET), MINNESOTA ARMY NATIONAL GUARD: We're Kong King of battle.
MURRAY (voice over) : Joe used to serve with Walz in the Minnesota National Guard. EUSTICE: When we served, he was as good a leader as you'd find.
MURRAY (voice over): After 9/11, Walz re-enlisted and both he and Eustis deployed to Europe, leaving their families behind for months to support the US war in Afghanistan. Walz stationed in Italy, guarded an Army base.
WALZ: We were under the early impression that we would shoot artillery and Afghanistan. As it turned out, we end up being a European Security Force.
EUSTICE: After we got done, people had us talk smack about, where you guys just went on vacation and whatever. Well, I disagree with those characterizations because you don't get to pick where you go.
MURRAY (voice over): When Walz returned in 2004, he began weighing a run for office and retirement from the Guard.
EUSTICE: At the time he was a football coach, a teacher, a dad, in the Guard, and then saw him running for office, and I mean, that's a lot.
Instead of serving in the Guard, he wanted to serve in another manner.
MURRAY (voice over): While some of Walz's fellow servicemen were surprised by his political ambitions, that wasn't the case for JD Vance.
MAJ. SHAWN HANEY (RET), US MARINE CORPS: We all knew one day he would run for office. He always did a great job where he was at, but always looked forward to the next thing.
[20:15:08]
MURRAY (voice over): Haney was Vance's officer-in-charge at a Marine Corps Airfield in Cherry Point, North Carolina. Vance served from 2003 to 2007, enlisting as a combat correspondent and for about six months deploying to Iraq.
VANCE: Generally, I take photos or write short stories about individual Marines or their work.
HANEY: They go where the action is. In our job of public affairs, if the Marines were sitting at their desk, they weren't doing their jobs
MURRAY (voice over): After his deployment, Vance returned to Cherry Point and served as a media relations officer, appearing in press inquiries, and escorting media on base. A role usually filled by a more senior Marine.
VANCE: I struggled a bit at first, allowing some photographers to take photos of a classified aircraft, speaking out of turn at a meeting with senior officers, and I got my ass chewed.
MURRAY (voice over): Ultimately, Haney says, he thrived and fellow Marines described him as smart, funny, and responsible. Both Eustis and Haney now standing up for their comrade's service, even though they don't necessarily agree with their politics, as Walz and Vance, but especially Walz faced political attacks over their time in uniform.
JASIOW: However, we are characterizing and/or downplaying or even denigrating either of these men's service is also sending a signal to those who may have served in similar ways that should bother all of us.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Sara Murray joins us now.
Does it seem to you that there's a life to this debate over Walz's service, Vance's military service?
MURRAY: Yes. Anderson, I don't see this going away anytime soon, especially because Vance has come out so hard against Walz and his military record, then very critical about when he decided to retire. And in fact, when the Harris campaign agreed to three more debates, but not more beyond that, Vance actually took to Twitter and accused Tim Walz of refusing to deploy again.
So, I think that shows you the sort of life behind these attacks. And we should note, look, we talked to a number of veterans who are frankly disappointed to see these kind of attacks in the political arena. They think it should be celebrated that there are two men who have this kind of enlisted background -- enlisted military background, first time, Anderson in roughly 30 years that two men, again, enlisted military veterans are vying for the vice presidency.
COOPER: Sara Murray, thanks very much.
Coming up next, Vice President Harris lays out her economic roadmap. We'll talk about her message and Harry Enten's got some polling whether voters trust her on the subject.
And later historian, Doris Kearns Goodwin, with a look ahead at Monday's Democratic Convention in Chicago, what it shares with the last time Democrats met there, also after a sitting president decided not to run nearly 60 years ago.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:21:28]
COOPER: Today, in North Carolina, Vice President Harris unveiled her economic agenda that includes measures aimed at making housing, groceries, health care, raising children more affordable. The proposals largely built on President Biden's economic platform.
In a moment, we'll talk more about the planet itself, but first CNN's Harry Enten is here with some polling.
So, who do battleground state voters trust more on the economy? HARRY ENTEN, CNN POLITICS SENIOR WRITER AND ANALYST: You know, this is supposed to be Donald Trump's bread and butter, right? So we're going to look at polling from Michigan, Pennsylvania, and Wisconsin, battleground state polling.
And what you see is that Trump's advantage on the economy while still existing is shrinking. So, against Joe Biden, he held a double-digit advantage in these three states. Against Kamala Harris, the advantage is still there. But look at that. It's dropped to just six points.
And this is part of a larger picture of Donald Trump on the issues in which he leads. He still may lead, but the issue leads are shrinking and you see that right there on the state of the economy at issue. He should be leading by double digits like he did against Joe Biden.
COOPER: When people were asked about what candidate cares more about them, what do you see?
ENTEN: Yes, we talk about the economy and we say, okay you know, who do you trust more on the economy? Oftentimes, people like to ask the question, who is actually caring about me?
You know, you look at what Kamala Harris is putting out in her plan, right. She's trying to win the empathy vote, right?
You go back to 2012, Mitt Romney actually won that election on the economy, but Barack Obama was able to beat Mitt Romney because he was able to defeat him on the question of who cares more about me. And what are we looking at in those key battleground states? Again, Michigan, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, what you see is, although Donald Trump leads on the economy on the question of who cares more about people like you, look at that, Kamala Harris has that six-point advantage.
And so this is what she's playing to. She's trying to win the empathy factor because the fact is, I think a lot of people's thoughts on the economy are kind of baked in. But if she can say, "You know, I have the better plans going forward for you and family." She feels she can win that way and that's why she put out the plans she did earlier today.
COOPER: Clean-shaven Harry Enten, thank you very much.
ENTEN: Clean-shaven Harry, and I think I look pretty gosh darn good.
COOPER: Scott Taylor is back joining us, former Harris communications director, Ashley Etienne and CNN political commentator, Bakari Sellers.
Bakari, Vice President Harris has been getting criticism for being light so far on policy specifics. Do you think her policy rollout is going to quiet any of that criticism? Obviously, Republicans are already pouncing on it.
BAKARI SELLERS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I mean, it depends on who you're asking. Are you asking the mainstream media inside the beltway? Will that quiet the criticism? The answer is no.
But for those individuals and the voters that she's actually meeting outside? Yes. I mean, she delivered this message today in the Raleigh- Durham area and she's talking about things that really matter to people.
I mean, she's talking about eliminating medical debt. She's talking about making sure people can afford their home. She's talking about child tax credits and contrary to our opponent. And people inside the beltway have this talking point religiously about the fact that she is not doing interviews, et cetera.
But the fact that the matter is that Donald Trump has come downstairs two times, one at Bedminster and one in Mar-a-Lago to do an interview. He's done on one with Elon Musk and he went to Montana.
But she's actually out meeting people, talking about these initiatives and today was a good day. I don't mind having policy debates about what the future looks like, because Donald Trump is a prisoner of the press.
He is somebody who utilizes and has a vessel of grievance and the grievances that he feel he went through and endured. And so, that is not a way to win an election today.
She was forward looking and today was a good day for the Harris campaign, put another way in the books.
COOPER: Scott, the former president was complaining yesterday about the cost of bacon and cereal, among other things. He said he's the guy to bring prices down.
What as far as you know, is he specifically pledging to do? And why is it a smart strategy than what the vice president is proposing?
[20:25:02]
TAYLOR: Let first say that I spoke to my own family who actually live in Delaware, my grandmother and my uncle, who had Obama stickers and a picture in their house. I mean, they're Democrats, and their grocery bill went from 200 to 270 and they're on fixed income. They're not voting for VP Harris.
The reality is, people are hurting out there and let me say when she came out, she's got a very tough time right now because VP Harris and candidate Harris are not two different people, it's the same people.
She's in power right now. All those policies that she was talking about today which we can get into and dissect. Why didn't she do it before? She's been in office for almost four years right now and people have been getting crushed under the cost of groceries and gas and everything else under this administration.
And so, if these policies are so great, she's in power right now. Why hasn't she implemented them? COOPER: Well, Ashley, let me ask you to that question. Because much of what Harris' economic agenda that she's talked about today would require Congressional approval. She also didn't really give details about how it would be paid for.
To Scott's argument about well, if she's in power now, why isn't she doing this stuff now, what do you say?
ASHLEY ETIENNE, FORMER COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR FOR VP HARRIS: Well, I mean, the reality is she is doing a lot of these things now. I mean, the plan that she rolled out today expands on the successful policies that the Biden-Harris administration has already implemented these tax cuts for lower and middle class families, which really has taken us out of the jaws of a recession and build the strongest economy in the world. The envy of the world, if you quote "The Wall Street Journal."
And the other thing I thought that was interesting is she's really becoming more aggressive on the issues that aren't really working as well.
To the point raised before, price gouging. The fact that families are being squeezed on both ends. She wants to be more aggressive about addressing that versus where she has been so far.
The other thing is expanding this issue of housing and affordable housing. We know there's too many people from millennials, Gen-Z that are just priced out of the market. And so, addressing that is going to be very important.
So, the way that I see this plan is she had to go big. She did. She doubled down on what actually is working and expand that and then aggressively address what isn't working as well, and that's to lower these costs for the American public.
I will also add, too, there's been a lot of successful policies that the Biden-Harris administration has passed, including capping insulin, and other issues that have really cut down on the cost for everyday Americans.
But the point is people need more. And she's advancing and proposing more. As you -- okay, sorry.
COOPER: Sorry, Bakari, I mean, she is in this situation where she's branding herself as a change candidate, but many of the proposals do build on what the Biden administration has already been trying to do.
SELLERS: I mean, of course, she does. I mean, the fact that she has to be able to articulate the successes that they've had and propose a vision for the future.
And I love my Republican colleagues who have to come on here and defend the fact that Donald Trump just recently when he was talking about the economy actually had Tic-Tacs and he had a big Tic-Tac and a little Tic-Tac and nobody knows what the hell he was talking about, but that is their guy. They have to ride that horse. They don't know what that means. They don't know what his issues are, or how he's going to address inflation.
All they want to do is shoot at the current leadership right now and shoot at a plan that put forth actual ideas, and what Kamala Harris realizes and what this administration realizes is that while they passed a bipartisan infrastructure bill and while they passed an Inflation Reduction Act, there are still people like my dad who worry about the price of whiting at Piggly Wiggly.
There are still people, families out there who are still concerned about the price of school supplies out there.
But we also understand context and that is why I think that a lot of individuals just to now, when Republicans say, well, this went up under your watch or this went up under your watch. The fact is inflation is not something that happens in a vacuum in the United States of America.
This happened after COVID, and also we have to realize, and I love Scott and I would love to hear him fill me in of why Donald Trump was someone who actually ran up the deficit by more than a third.
And so while you're criticizing these plans, lets actually have a robust discussion and I appreciate -- I truly appreciate the fact that Kamala Harris laid out an economic plan that's worker focused, that talks about not raising taxes on people who make less than $400,000.00, that talks about a child tax credit, that talks about putting people in their homes, reducing grocery prices, we're having policy discussions.
We're out there not just talking about peoples personalities like Donald Trump will and that's the difference between a Harris and Trump administration just on its face.
COOPER: All right, I'm out of time, but Scott just briefly, I want you to respond.
[20:30:04]
TAYLOR: Yes, listen, look, I take the same position that Obama's economist did that her plans are not based in reality because they're not. And as I hope that my grandmother and my uncle for their sake, they don't get implemented. I hope she stays on them from a political perspective because I think that we will win on the argument all day long.
COOPER: Scott Taylor, Ashley Etienne, Bakari Sellers, thank you very much.
Coming up next, Doris Kearns Goodwin on the Democratic Convention in Chicago, now and in 1968.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: Democrats assemble in Chicago Monday for their four-day national convention that, as many have noted, has similarities to, but also key differences from their notorious 1968 gathering. That one was also in Chicago and came after a surprise switch at the top of the presidential ticket. And as in 1968, protests are also expected next week over a war involving the U.S., this time in Gaza.
Someone who was there almost 56 years ago joins us now. Pulitzer Prize winning historian Doris Kearns Goodwin, her latest bestseller, which is fantastic, "An Unfinished Love Story: A Personal History of the 1960s."
Doris, great to have you here. So you and your husband Dick were there in Chicago for all of it. Both of you worked for Lyndon Johnson during his presidency. Dick had been very close to Bobby Kennedy, who'd been assassinated in June. What feels similar now? What feels different?
[20:35:11]
DORIS KEARNS GOODWIN, PRESIDENTIAL HISTORIAN: Well, what feels different is that it was a war where we had our soldiers who were abroad. It was profoundly divided in the Democratic Party, and the Chicago police were not trained as I hope they are now.
But what happened to me when I think about being there, I was just a White House fellow at that time working for Lyndon Johnson. And I went to the convention with my friends. I was on vacation. I was doing nothing official. And it was very confusing for me because I'd been an anti-war activist. I absolutely respected what LBJ was doing domestically and he never changed my opinion about the war.
But I was beginning to feel confused as I saw what was happening there. The police were in a riot in many ways against the protesters. It was on the screens. We were watching it. And one night when we were watching all the -- we would go out in the day and watch what was going on and then come back to our hotel suite that night.
I was with six friends and somebody answered the phone and said the president's on the line. And I thought it was joking. And I went and he said to me, I have a favor to ask you. And I thought, oh my God, he's going to ask me to do something official. And now I'm so confused about how I feel about this whole war.
And he said, when you were here last week, you borrowed my flashlight and I can't find it. Where is it? I was so embarrassed what I was thinking, what was going on in my mind. But then I finally said to him, well, how are you? And he said to me, how do you think I am? I've never felt lower in my life.
It was his 60th birthday that day. And he had been planning to go to the convention to give a valedictory speech. And he'd been working on it. It was going to have a huge cake. They were had a split suite was reserved for him. And then the people at the convention told him you cannot come. The turmoil is too great. It will only exacerbate it.
So they had to just put together a small party of 20 friends who ended up just watching the convention at the ranch. So then I felt so sad for him. I felt that other kind of feeling of empathy for him. So it was a really confusing time, I think, for everybody there.
COOPER: That's so interesting.
GOODWIN: And a terrible time.
COOPER: I mean, it makes --
GOODWIN: And the police weren't wearing their badges.
COOPER: It makes you wonder about President Biden watching this convention. I mean, the -- you think -- you talk about LGB -- you know, LBJ, 60th birthday, kind of watching this on television.
GOODWIN: No, it's got to be hard. I mean, on the one hand, he's going to be received in an extraordinary way when he gives his own speech there. There'll be a standing ovation. But still, you know that your part is finished. I mean, that's what LBJ felt.
This is my party. I thought I was going to be there. This would have been my convention at the previous one in 1964. They'd had a 300 pound cake. They were going to have a big cake again. Now, none of that was for him.
And you're watching the passing really of your life and of your past. So I'm sure it's going to be a mixed feeling for President Biden. He will, however, have what LBJ did not have, which is the adoration of his party and the thanks of his party, which had LBJ had at the very beginning, but then the war continued and it's dissipated away, but Biden will have that to comfort him, I think, in the loss that it's no longer his. It's -- you're passing the torch to somebody else.
COOPER: You see the enthusiasm, the momentum among Democrats, certainly, at least so far, for Vice President Harris. Did Vice President Hubert Humphrey, who, by the way, like Tim Walz who's from Minnesota, did he have anything like the kind of support that Harris has right now?
GOODWIN: Oh, it was so hard for him because he was tied to the administration. The war was still going on. He was trying to figure out how to break a little bit from Lyndon Johnson. In fact, my husband was at that convention, really in charge of the peace plank.
And there was a hope for a while that maybe Humphrey would endorse the peace plank on which he could then run, which would be a distancing from the plank that the establishment had, which was much more saying, we're going to withdraw the troops. We're going to stop the bombing. The war is going to come to an end.
But at the last minute, the Southerners told him, if you do that, we won't vote for you on the first ballot, and then you may lose everything. So it was really, Humphrey was a really good man. He gave a decent acceptance speech.
But it was a split screen the night of his nomination between his talking about the politics of joy, talking about, you know, being a happy warrior. And then you saw on the other side of the screen, the police pummeling the protesters and bloodied them. There were barricades right in front of the Hilton Hotel. The police went into the barricade. The car actually went into the restaurant where people were, bystanders were hurt, reporters were hurt. And Teddy White, the journalist said that night, the Democrats have lost the election this very night.
COOPER: The Vietnam War was, you know, obviously the huge divisive issue in '68 now, there's the war against Hamas in Gaza. How do you compare the political fault lines created by those conflicts?
GOODWIN: Well, I think the real difference is that the Democratic Party was profoundly divided. I mean, they were probably half and half, if not even more than that. So that it's not the smaller minority that are feeling divided about the war in Gaza. And as I said before, it was a war in which our soldiers were fighting overseas.
[20:40:00]
And so I think it had much more profound effect in terms of the party and the party came out of that convention, not united, and they never could quite get back together again. There's still a hope that maybe we've learned something from what happened there, and that the police -- we've -- I've been reading in the papers anyway, that they're readying themselves for understanding the importance of free speech, but yet it has to be peaceable assembly.
You know, when I was looking at the Bill of Rights the other day, that's what you do when you're a nerd. You look at the Bill of Rights the other day, and the First Amendment to the Bill of Rights, free speech, free press, free religion, is also the right of peaceable assembly.
It's so important to be able to assemble so many of the movements of our country, whether it was civil rights or gay rights or the environmental movement, the anti-slavery movement, we're assemblies, but peaceful, and that's really what's -- you've got to hope that the people who are coming to protest understand the moment it goes over that line to violence, they're going to lose whatever support they have.
So it's on both sides to hope that it can be peaceful and stay within a contained period of time and a contained place.
COOPER: Well, from one nerd to another, Doris, thank you for being on.
GOODWIN: Thank you for having me on.
COOPER: All right. Thanks. I'll talk to you soon.
Up next, this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(BOMBING)
(END VIDEO CLIP) COOPER: Ukrainian flipping the script in the war with Russia. We'll have a report from a Russian town that just been captured by Ukrainian forces and the latest on their assault.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:45:32]
COOPER: We've got a view of the war between Russia and Ukraine unlike any that we've seen until now from occupied Russian soil. Ukrainian forces are now holding parts of Russian territory. President Zelenskyy says they've taken control of a Russian town about 6 miles across the border.
Our Nick Paton Walsh was able to gain some of the first access to Ukrainian held Russia today and witnessed their control over the town and the intensity of the fight. CNN was accompanied by the Ukrainian military, which reviewed the video you're about to see without sound prior to its release for operational security reasons.
That said, they had no editorial control over what you're about to see. Here's Nick's report, and we want to warn you, some of what you're about to see is graphic.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
NICK PATON WALSH, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This was never in Putin's plan. But still, into Russia we cross with Ukrainian forces moving forwards. Through the border post they destroyed in their surprise assault 10 days ago.
PATON WALSH: As we get closer towards Sudzha, we can see more smoke on the horizon. But still, it's bizarrely calm on this road.
PATON WALSH (voice-over): Pause a moment in these open fields and remember, this is the Cold War superpower. Unguarded, open and never expecting when Russian President Vladimir Putin launched his war of choice two years ago, to be invaded back.
A Russian dead soldier still in the road. Ukraine only claimed here a day ago.
PATON WALSH (voice-over): Well not even the statue of Lenin is unscathed here. This Ukrainian assault, so persistent, and Russia, despite its sense of history, its sort of past as being so impregnable, completely unable to push the Ukrainians out here. A sound of small arms fire we can still hear, so clearly there is a bid for the Russians to push back, but it simply isn't working, and the humiliation for Putin endures.
PATON WALSH (voice-over): Days ago, locals had honored their war dead. But none since the Nazis led Russia to face occupation.
PATON WALSH: You can see the damage that's been done to this street here from the intense fight that rage to. Still clearly active fighting happening here. PATON WALSH (voice-over): A sign in the basement here, they're peaceful people, no soldiers. Ina 68 says 60 civilians are there.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): The Ukrainians brought a lot of boxes. There is food.
PATON WALSH: Just like we've seen in multiple Ukrainian towns over the last two years here, the locals trying to find some shelter from the war around them.
PATON WALSH (voice-over): Dennis Lav (ph) shows his gray.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): This isn't living. It's existing. It's not life.
PATON WALSH (voice-over): In the dark, hunted like so many Ukrainians now. The infirmed isolated, begging for calm.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): I don't know how it will end. At least a truce, so we can live peacefully. We don't need anything. I have a crutch. I can't walk. It's very hard.
PATON WALSH (voice-over): Day, night, light, dark, news or blackout or blur into one.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): No news, we don't know what's happening around us.
PATON WALSH (voice-over): Yefimov (ph) is over 90 and wants to leave to Ukraine, but there is no root out, he says.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): You're the first to come here.
(Speaking Foreign Language)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): My daughter, niece and grandkids are there. I'm Russian but they are married to Ukrainians.
PATON WALSH (voice-over): Again, ordinary streets that never guessed of their destruction or newfound fame days ago. Vacant in the storm around them.
Normal life here vanished in a hurry, leaving store floors as barracks. And Nina, 74, out looking for a pharmacy for her medication.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): If I wanted to leave, I would have. Why leave? I've lived here 50 years. My daughter and mother are buried here. What about Ukraine? I live on my own land. I don't know whose land this is. I don't know anything anymore.
[20:50:12]
PATON WALSH (voice-over): It is a war that keeps turning the world order on its head. Where wreckage that lined Ukraine's fields now horns Russias. Ukrainians learn to paint over their road signs to confuse the invaders, but still hear. The signs ask God to protect and save Russia. That was Putin's job.
It is not clear when he's coming back.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PATON WALSH (on-camera): Now, Anderson, it's clear that Ukraine does have the ability to project force pretty far outside of Sudzha. We're not quite clear why there was so little drone or aviation threat from the Russians inside that town. We were told because the main fighting was using all that capacity from Russia further away from where we were.
But we also saw, too, the volume of equipment and resources Ukraine is still pouring into that part of Russia that it's taken. And clearly the trip we were on was designed to show how much in control they are and relatively calm they are in Sudzha itself.
But it is not all good news here. This surprise assault has certainly bought them international attention and the idea that they're on their front foot. But elsewhere in the east, near Pokrovsk, a vital Ukrainian military hub, they're seeing Russia getting closer and closer, potentially within 3 or 4 miles of the outskirts of that key area.
And indeed, if Russia were able to use its artillery on that hub, it would be a significant loss for the Ukrainian operations in the east, in the Donbas. So give and take certainly, but being no doubt at all. What we're seeing in the Kursk region is Ukraine boldly pushing forwards and it's fair to say, not about to give up any time soon.
Anderson?
COOPER: Yes. Nick Paton Walsh, thank you. Be careful.
Coming up, back to the campaign, specifically in the swing state of Wisconsin even more specifically, from one county which could foretell who wins the whole state.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:56:14]
COOPER: Republican vice presidential nominee J.D. Vance today was busy campaigning the key battleground state of Wisconsin, which the former president won in 2016 but lost in 2020. Republicans in the state say that Wisconsin's Dane County, which has been reliably Democrat, is key to a Trump victory in the state.
Randi Kaye went to Dane County to gauge the president's support.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
RANDI KAYE, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This is Dane County, Wisconsin. Beyond the cornfields and the grain silos, there's the county seat of Madison. The last Republican presidential candidate to win Dane County was Dwight Eisenhower in 1952 and 1956. Team Trump knows they can't win this county, but they have to stop Democrats from running up the scoreboard if they want to have any chance at winning Wisconsin.
BRANDON MALY, CHAIRMAN, DANE COUNTY REPUBLICAN PARTY: The challenge for Republicans is how you manage it. Are you going to go into the blue cities and actually put up a fight?
KAYE (voice-over): Brandon Maly is chairman of the Dane County Republican Party. He says it all comes down to simple math.
MALY: If you're a Republican candidate that gets less than 23 percent of the vote in Dane County, it doesn't matter how much better you do in the wild (ph) counties or Milwaukee, you will lose the state. So our baseline is 23. That's just to be able to survive.
KAYE: Just to be clear, if Trump doesn't get at least 23 percent of the vote here in Dane County, can he win the state of Wisconsin?
MALY: It's going to be extremely unlikely. In 2016, Donald Trump got 23.4 percent of the vote in Dane County and won Wisconsin. In 2020, Trump didn't meet that threshold and lost the state to Joe Biden.
At this farmer's market in DeForest, a suburb north of Madison, voters weighed in on the challenge Trump faces here.
KAYE: You're voting for Trump?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Absolutely.
KAYE: The head of the Republican Party here in Dane County thinks that if Trump can win 23 percent of the county, he can win the state of Wisconsin. What do you think?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I absolutely believe that.
KAYE: Do you think Trump could win 23 percent of Dane County?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Possibly. Everybody's divided here.
ABBY SADOWSKI, TRUMP SUPPORTER: I do think he has a chance at winning Wisconsin. I think more people are voting for him than they want to say. I think people aren't as vocal about their political opinions these days, especially with it being a little more blue in this area and not as many people agree.
ELLIOT FRANKLIN, HARRIS SUPPORTER: I don't think he has a shot at winning Dane County or Wisconsin for that matter. The last election was kind of an indictment on that. I know it was a close election, but I think the tide has turned quite a bit. I mean, he's done a lot of things that are pretty inflammatory.
KAYE (voice-over): Strong opinions and with razor thin margins becoming the norm in this state that matters. Voters we met are dug in, some for Trump and others for Vice President Kamala Harris.
SADOWSKI: 100 percent Donald Trump. I feel that he has the best interest of America on his mind.
KAYE: What do you like about Harris?
RILEY HEUBSCH, HARRIS SUPPORTER: I just like that she is a sane person. I think a supporter of women and women's rights, education. That's a really important factor for me.
FRANKLIN: I'm definitely for Harris. Yes, she's really energized the ticket. I just feel like Trump is very divisive. He's draconian. He's kind of taking us back in the wrong direction. You know, being African American, it's kind of hard to just digest his message.
KAYE (voice-over): Back in Madison, the county's Republican Party chair had this advice for Trump.
MALY: So I think President Trump coming to Dane County would wake a lot of people up and show that their vote matters.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KAYE (on-camera): And it's worth noting, Anderson, that Donald Trump has not come to Dane County this election cycle. Certainly the chairman of the Dane County Republican Party would like to change that. And he did tell me that they are working on that.
He also told me that they are working on targeting their messaging, and that they have one of the most robust operations on the ground level that they have had in years. So they are certainly hopeful that Donald Trump will get to that 23 percent threshold.
But keep in mind, the Democrats in Dane County outnumber the Republicans by about 3 to 1. So they certainly have their work cut out for them. Anderson?
COOPER: Randi, thanks so much.
Be sure to join us Sunday night at 8:00 Eastern for a special convention eve edition of 360 live from Chicago.
For now, the news continues. The Source with Kaitlan Collins starts now. See you Sunday.
