Return to Transcripts main page
Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees
Soon: First Debate Between Trump and Harris on CNN, Aired: 8-9p ET
Aired September 10, 2024 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[20:00:00]
KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: But this is what Donald Trump was doing in the moments that he got to Philadelphia while likely we would expect him to be instead preparing for this debate.
Now, he has spent several days holed up at Mar-a-Lago. They've been doing their version of debate prep, but again goes to show you where his head is at and what he's up to in these moments leading up to this critical moment.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, "ANDERSON COOPER: 360": All right, I want to go to Priscilla Alvarez covering the Harris campaign. So, what more are you picking up about the vice president's strategy this evening?
PRISCILLA ALVAREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well certainly the vice president's debate team has been preparing her for some of former President Donald Trump's most popular line of attacks.
That includes her immigration record and the administration's botched withdrawal from Afghanistan.
Now, the Trump campaign previewed as much this week, essentially, indicating that the former president would pursue those lines of attack against Harris on the debate stage and presented with that, Harris aides and allies expected the vice president is going to paint Trump as unserious and essentially describe his policies as unpopular. All of this to essentially avoid taking the bait.
That includes one of those labels that the former president often uses for Harris calling her the border czar. Of course, the vice president was not tasked with border security, instead tapped to address root causes of migration. But she will be presenting that case on the debate stage today.
All of this, Anderson, really boiling down to Harris flipping the script here and using Trump's own words and actions against him.
COOPER: All right, thanks very much. We'll check in a little bit later.
David Axelrod, you have been with the president backstage waiting to go out on a debate. I've moderated one of these debates. It is stressful for the moderators.
DAVID AXELROD, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes.
COOPER: What is it like being with the principal? Being with a candidate in these moments?
AXELROD: I'll tell you. You can tell a lot from how the candidate behaves before the debate.
Before our first debate in Denver in 2012, you could see that the president was not -- he was sort of like, let's get this over with and get out of here. And we left the locker room and David Plouffe, who's helping on this prep and I looked at each other and said, we're going to have a bad night. The next --
COOPER: You could tell?
AXELROD: We could tell. The next time, we had some very good prep. He really clearly knew what he wanted to do on that stage. We knew what he was going to do on that stage. And he -- as we were leaving, he pulled us back and he said. I just want you to know we're going to have a good night. And we did.
So, there is a feeling, I mean, there's tension, but you can tell from the principal this is a little weird, though. The whole cat deal.
Maybe that's how he gets into game shape, I don't know.
COOPER: Golf ball.
AXELROD: I saw Jason Miller this morning on TV saying, you know, she doesn't know what she's in for. This is the Muhammad Ali this is the Floyd Mayweather.
If I were them, I'd worry about him knocking himself out.
ALYSSA FARAH GRIFFIN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Trump doesn't really prepare in a traditional way in any sense. I've been with him ahead of town halls and interviews, and oftentimes he becomes a victim, you could say, of the last person who was in his ear.
So, when you read the roll call of who got off of the plane with him tonight, I think that would be concerning and that he's trying to win a general election and communicate to a mass audience, and you have people the likes of Laura Loomer who may be saying, hey, here's what you need to talk about.
If he can stick to the kitchen table, issues, the border, the economy, he's going to be fine. But we have seen him many times, if one person gets an idea in his head, if he thinks cat memes is the direction to go, this could go quickly off the rails for him tonight.
COOPER: Audie.
AUDIE CORNISH, CNN HOST, "THE ASSIGNMENT WITH AUDIE CORNISH PODCAST": To your point, well know tonight whether he is actually trying to appeal to a mass amount of people or if he's trying to appeal to a very specific subset of people in certain counties. I won't get into the cat meme thing but it actually follows in with, you know, racial hierarchy of immigrants in this country. It's actually quite an ugly set of commentary that will harken back to past things that were rumored that the Trump administration was talking about.
These are the kinds of things that are going to jog the memory of certain sliver of the voting population that already feels dissatisfaction with behavior and conduct so will you see that tonight? That's sort of what I'm looking for.
VAN JONES, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: And I think this cat thing is really disgusting. I just want to be very clear about it there. If you've missed this, if you have a real life, they're saying that Haitians, Haitian immigrants are stealing peoples cats and eating them and it's a complete lie. And I hope that the Haitians in Florida, where Trump is only up by two, pay attention. This is what he thinks about you.
COOPER: When he called the country, you know, a shithole, and --
JONES: So, Haitians in Florida take note.
JOHN KING, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: But this is who he is, right, this is who he is and you haven't changed the -- JD Vance started this one. --
CORNISH: -- this goes right from right wing message boards to Gab to X. The pipeline from that to talking point is pretty disturbing and fascinating to see.
KING: Absolutely. So, you're in this critical phase of the election. It is as close as it can be and this is what they are doing. This is crazy conspiracy stuff, right? This is why Trump lost Willie Horton.
COOPER: This is like Willie Horton stuff. It just, you know, in a different --
[20:05:06]
KING: But this is why he lost the last election because a sliver of people, many of whom right now think they might vote for him because they're worried about inflation. They are Republicans. They don't like the Biden record. They don't know enough about Kamala Harris. But this is ingesting bleach all over again.
This is and again, in recent days, what did JD Vance said, he would not do what Mike Pence did. He would invite the states to send in -- he calls them alternative electors, that's fake. They don't exist. There's no legal grounds for it. It's a lie. Its cheating.
COOPER: Okay.
KING: And then Donald Trump goes before the largest police organization in the country and says, get your badges out, keep your eyes open because we will win big. unless there's cheating. So why is he going back to this at this key point in the election because that's what lost him the last election.
ASHLEY ALLISON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I know that you all won't agree when I say this, but --
DAVID URBAN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Oh, sure, we will.
ALLISON: How do you know?
URBAN: We'll never know.
ALLISON: But Alyssa's point about sticking to the issues of immigration and economy. Well, there is a way that that actually could play to Kamala Harris' favor. If you are able to invoke him saying very derogatory things like he is known to say, and when you have someone like a Laura Loomer and you're posting AI images of what he was posting earlier. That could actually backfire on him and expose the type of person that John is talking about that doesn't want to bring our country together, that just wants to be divisive.
I also think on the economy, people do want to hear, we heard one of the undecided voters in our focus group. They do want to hear. And so if he's talking about Black jobs because he said that in the last debate, and Kamala Harris is talking about how all Americans deserve jobs. It could backfire.
URBAN: Remember the format here, too. This format is very tight. It's like a minute.
COOPER: Yes, it doesn't allow for --
URBAN: -- because it's very short. We're not going to get long diatribes here. And one of the things that they were talking about is Afghanistan. Let's just remember Afghanistan is going to play a large part today, we had the Gold Medal ceremony in the Capitol, where those, you know, the servicemen and women's families are given the gold medal.
Kamala Harris is going to be a big feature here that's not met with those families in three-and-a-half-years, despite them asking, I suspect they'll get a question or Trump will -- that will be raised here tonight.
COOPER: Scott.
SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Look, no matter what happens, there's really only one thing he has to do tonight. Keep it simple. If you're unhappy, you need to assess what your level of unhappiness is and whether she's responsible for it, and whether you want to leave the same people in charge.
Whether you go down the economy, immigration, or crime, anything else, if he gets lost, come right back to the promised land of change.
COOPER: I want to check in with Jeff Zeleny who's at the debate spin room. We'll soon find out how the debate rules both candidates have agreed to actually play out on stage, but to the point we we're just making, they are very tight.
They don't allow for a lot of crosstalk or, frankly, follow ups.
JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: At least that is the design, Anderson, of course, anything can happen on stage, but both of these campaigns have been really litigating these rules for weeks. But these are the final set of rules going into the debate.
This debate will be 90 minutes long, with two commercial breaks. There will not be a live audience at all. So, it will be the first time the two candidates have ever met one another face to face. And they certainly will not be allowed to bring props or briefing papers.
There also will not be opening statements. There will be closing statements. And because of a coin toss earlier this week, Donald Trump will have the final word here.
But we also got a sense earlier today of what the stage actually looks like. This video from ABC News shows the podiums, first and foremost. Look how close they are. Six feet apart. This is very close range after these candidates have been sparring at long distance for so long.
These clocks, perhaps one of the most important things here. The candidates have two minutes to speak. These clocks right here will count down and they are color coded as well. The rival will have two minutes to rebut.
But finally, the microphones, this was the most contentious issue of all among the candidates. Should the microphones be muted or not? The agreed upon rule is when the rival is speaking, the person's microphone will be muted. So when the former president is speaking, vice president Harris' mic will be muted and vice versa.
We will see if that actually happens or if we can hear the crosstalk between them or not. But after the debate, after that 90-minute debate, all of the advisers and supporters will come right here to the spin room.
It's already getting pretty busy in here. We've seen several senators come in. We've seen RFK, Jr. just a couple of minutes ago come in. He of course, is supporting former President Donald Trump.
But for all the talk of spinning this debate, what actually happens in the debate on the debate stage that is going to resonate with voters. So, yes this room will fill up. You will see people giving interviews, but the reality is, the 90 minutes are the most important thing perhaps for the rest of this campaign -- Anderson.
COOPER: All right, Jeff, thanks very much. I want to get more on the debate rule about muted microphones. CNN's chief media analyst, Brian Stelter joins us.
So, the Harris camp balked, but ultimately agreed to the muted mic rule that was also in play during the Biden-Trump debate on CNN in June. What do you know about kind of inside of this?
[20:10:04]
BRIAN STELTER, CNN CHIEF MEDIA ANALYST: Right, back in June, TV critics and political professionals were generally supportive of this change. It helped create an actual debate.
But when Harris became the nominee, some of these conversations changed. Harris aides wanted the mics to be live and hot the entire time, they even tried to goad Trump into agreeing to it and they suggested that the Trump campaign were cowards for not going along with it.
But eventually, the Harris campaign agreed to these terms. The mics will be muted. Here's the interesting scuttlebutt, though tonight, Anderson, we're here in the spin room at ABC News, there is talk that ABC producers may open up the mics if something really newsworthy happens, if something editorially significant happens, maybe the producers will in real time, make a change.
ABC says no agreements have been made about that but it will be very curious. Also, there will be a small group of outside reporters inside this debate hall, so they'll be able to hear whatever happens between Trump and Harris. Even if television microphones don't pick it up.
However, this goes tonight, Anderson. However, ABC performs, will go a long way to determining if there will be another debate later this fall.
COOPER: All right, Brian Stelter, thanks very much. Back with the team.
I mean, it's interesting, David, with these debate rules you know, these things are timed out when you are moderating one of these things. You have gained this out. You know, everything that Donald Trump has said. You know, everything that Kamala Harris has said. You think about trying to figure out three questions ahead.
Well if I ask this, he's going to say this then I'll follow up with this. But with these rules, it is two minutes. It's one minute, its one minute. There's not a lot of follow up.
AXELROD: There's not, unless people break the format and break the rules and that's always a chance with him. One thing that I wanted to say is the Harris people have been preparing in much the way we did, which is they created a facsimile of the set, an exact facsimile.
They do a series of mock debates that follow those rules precisely. The whole idea is to make your candidate so comfortable and so familiar with what's likely to happen, that they're not in a position to try and do too much on the stage, that they know what they're going to do when these situations arise. That's not how Trump operates.
URBAN: No, and by the way, if the editors or whomever decides to change the rules on the fly, I think the world will come apart.
COOPER: Yes, I find that, I find that hard to imagine.
URBAN: I don't think anyone's going to decide like, oh, were going to unmute her mic all of a sudden, or unmute his mic. The world would come apart.
But listen, Donald Trump's a nontraditional candidate. He's been doing this for many years. He's got a sense of stagecraft and television, you know, he did "The Apprentice" for 13 years.
The guy knows TV and he knows production and so, that's where he makes --
AXELROD: One thing that's striking, though. You look at the debate eight years ago and him today, not really the same guy. He really isn't, he really is --
URBAN: Yes, Look at me eight years ago.
AXELROD: -- not as crisp.
JENNINGS: You know what I think is great?
AXELROD: You haven't changed a bit.
JENNINGS: We've talked a lot about the muted mics, but I actually think as important is the fact there's no audience.
AXELROD: Yes, it's huge.
JENNINGS: And in the in the Republican primary we cover these debates out here. I hated it that it felt like a Roman Colosseum. It just, you know, it was weird.
JONES: -- playing to the crowd.
JENNINGS: And so, you take the audience out of it and you also take for Trump, you know, he doesn't feel like he has to entertain 500 people sitting in front of him. He can talk directly to the camera and do. And so, I like that they've done -- and I hope this is the norm because I think the other way is not --
JONES: It's much more serious.
COOPER: So when you think back to the last debate, not that a lot of Democrats want to think back to the last debate, but you could watch Trump sort of analyze the situation in real time of the implosion of President Biden, assessing how much do I need to actually engage? How much do I need to attack? And sort of realizing he could just -- I mean, he's like playing, he's like riding a surfboard. He's sort of sensing the currents.
JONES: Yes, I think that's right.
COOPER: Not that he would get on a surfboard.
URBAN: I like the visual. JONES: But I think what's interesting is that Trump has not been present, the past couple of weeks. He has been increasingly weird. His syntax is weird. He jumps all around. He doesn't make a lot of sense.
If you've been following the Trump soap opera, you can kind of keep up with what he's saying. But if tonight, if he shows up and Kamala is doing well and he starts to decompensate the way he's been doing on stage, it could be a very weird night.
AXELROD: Especially if he turns to him and says to him, what he said to Biden, which is I don't even know what he said. I'm not sure he did either.
JENNINGS: That would be the line of the night.
JONES: That would be the clap back.
COOPER: The other unknown is, you know, clearly anybody who covered Kamala Harris back in the run in 2019 didn't make it to 2020. You know, she's a much better candidate giving a speech. I mean her skill level has gone up a lot. We haven't seen a lot of interviews so we don't know how good she is on that.
She did fine, you know, seemingly in the Dana Bash interview. We don't really know what her debating skills now are like, how they've evolved from the last time.
KING: Everything we have seen so far. She's a completely different candidate than she was running in the primaries. However, she had a debate with Mike Pence, a one on one debate back in the primaries where she was not a very good debater. That was with the crowd. So we haven't seen her at this moment. There's no question in what we have seen, the sample we have of speeches, the convention retailing, even the bus tours.
She's a very different person, a much more confident, a much more steady campaigner. However, we have not seen this and this is the defining test of her life.
URBAN: She'll do well.
[20:15:17]
COOPER: We're nearing the start of the Harris-Trump debate and the first look at how the candidates interact or don't interact on stage they've never met before.
Still ahead, a high profile Harris supporter joins us live. California Governor Gavin Newsom. It's debate night in America. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR: We're closing in on the high stakes presidential debate between vice president Kamala Harris and Donald Trump. The former president here in historic Philadelphia. The vice president, the former president about to meet in person. This will be the very first time that they have ever met even though Donald Trump did give her campaign money when she was running for attorney general of California. He of course, did not go to the inaugural in 2021, which meant that he didn't get to meet the new vice president.
Let's bring up a montage now, if we can, of some of Donald Trump's best, worst, most notable moments from past debates, and then we'll talk about him as a debater.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Do you still want to ban fracking?
KAMALA HARRIS (D) VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: No. And, I made that clear in 2020 --
(END AUDIO CLIP)
[20:20:11]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP/JUNE 7: I don't think he knows what he said either.
TRUMP/SEPTEMBER 29, 2020: Who would you like me to condemn?
JOE BIDEN (D), PRESIDENT OF THE United States: The Proud Boys.
TRUMP: Proud Boys, stand back and standby --
BIDEN: We did not separate, they --
TRUMP: Who built the cages, Joe?
HILLARY CLINTON (D), FORMER PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: It's just awfully good that someone with the temperament of Donald Trump is not in charge of the law in our country.
TRUMP: Because you'd be in jail.
Such a nasty woman.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Donald, relax.
TRUMP: Go ahead. I'm relaxed.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You're a basket case.
TRUMP: Don't worry about it, little Marco.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: All right. So, some of those are the highlights, lowlights, whatever you want to call them. Chris, what are his strengths as a debater? What are his weaknesses, do you think?
CHRIS WALLACE, CNN HOST "WHO'S TALKING TO CHRIS WALLACE": Well, I think his biggest strength is he doesn't talk like a politician. I remember taking part in the first debate that he participated in August of 2015 in Cleveland, a year before the Republican Convention.
And there were, I think ten Republicans on the stage governors and senators and all kinds of people and he was there. And at one point he made that point that, you know, I don't talk like these politicians. I talk like a real person.
And it was true because when you started hearing a number of the other people, you realize that he talked like somebody on the street, which I think made him much, much more accessible.
There are no bounds to what he will say. One of the clips there was cut maybe censored before we got to it was when he got in a conversation with Marco Rubio in Detroit, and Marco Rubio was making fun of his having small hands and he proceeded to say, yeah, you know people think that's an indication of something. And let me tell you, there are no complaints.
And so whatever you think is the bottom that he would go to. No, he would go further than that. If that's his strength, his weakness is a lack of discipline. And the fact that when he's told, you know, stick to this, don't do that. I'll give you just a quick example. I was talking to one of his top aides the other day, and I said what happens about if he is brought into a conversation about 2020?
He said, he wants to talk about it and I can't say that he won't talk about it but he's been told that it's a bad idea to talk about it, and you should be forward facing, which to me basically meant we have -- it's his top aides. We have no idea whether if that gets into a conversation about re-litigating 2020, whether he'll do it or not.
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: I also think the point you were making about Trump not talking like a politician was certainly true in 2016. Also, to some extent in 2020. But just like if you go back and you watch old videos of Joe Biden and those old debates, the Donald Trump of today is not the Donald Trump of yesteryear. And he has slowed down himself in a lot of ways.
He's not as quick on his feet. He doesn't talk like a politician, but it makes a lot less sense than even compared to four years ago. And that is part of the dynamic that will be much more pronounced on the stage tonight than it was with Biden, because of how Biden really, really struggled, Trump is struggling.
He's struggling with putting sentences together with making points make sense. And he struggled at the debate that you all moderated. It just wasn't the number one thing that people noticed because something else was happening on that debate stage.
TAPPER: So, something that Speaker Johnson has told House Republicans is that they shouldn't criticize Kamala Harris when it comes to policy, and they should criticize her when it comes to the record of the Biden-Harris administration. But they should keep away from talking about attacks that are racial or gender based.
Donald Trump has not done that. Donald Trump has attacked her falsely saying that she didn't identify as Black until recently, and he reposted something on social media, a crude suggestion that she had exchanged sexual favors to get ahead in her career.
There's been zero evidence for that, and it's disgusting, sleazy, slimy thing to say. I have to believe that his advisers are most worried of him going there.
BASH: Absolutely, and they are worried about what they can't even fathom. Even beyond that, even though that was a repost. And, you know, it's totally understandable that we are focusing on Donald Trump because he is a character unlike any that we have ever covered in our lifetime.
But I do think that tonight, the focus is going to be much more by the people who matter most. The undecided voters, particularly in places like where we are right now, in Pennsylvania on her, because he's a known quantity and she isn't.
And if you look at all the polls, particularly those from over the weekend, Jake, the question of who is she and what does she stand for, she has a lot of room to grow.
Now, she has a lot of room to grow and she also has room to fall. So, there's risk and reward with the fact that she's a bit unknown.
But I do think that the sort of reframing a little bit of how certainly I'll tell you how I'm going to be looking at it is instead of, you know, what is he going to do? Because he's such a wild card. I'm really interested to see how she presents herself in a way that those voters will get to understand her.
[20:25:22]
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN HOST: And to Chris' point about Trump's strengths on the debate stage and looking at those poll numbers for Harris, one of the things that he did well in 2016 was he's able to find peoples weaknesses. Or maybe it's not their known weakness, he can turn it into one against them.
That is what he's going to try to do with Harris and her policy reversals on that debate stage tonight. And also just the fact that he has been on a presidential debate stage obviously, many more times than she has. That's what his team is counting on.
But what Donald Trump is also about to do is be on a debate stage with a woman for the first time in eight years.
And Donald Trump does have a woman problem when it comes to voters. His campaign is acutely aware of this. They look at the numbers, and when you look at single women and the deficit that he has with them, including in recent polls, those numbers have not changed, that's something that he's going to be dealing with on that debate stage tonight. And so, that is what really, when you talk to his aides and his allies about what they're the most concerned about tonight, is that that will resurrect itself on the debate stage, because she is going to be trying to get under his skin.
I was at Trump tower on Friday, when he held a press conference just hours after appealing the E. Jean Carroll defamation and sexual abuse verdict. He essentially just ranted about it for over 60 minutes and you could see what a sensitive issue it is for him.
Basically, making clear to the Harris campaign, this is something that she could use that she could invoke to get under his skin and may very well do so tonight.
His campaign isn't quite sure how he'll respond to that.
TAPPER: Coming up, another take on what to expect tonight when California Governor Gavin Newsom joins us here in Philly. It's all leading up to Kamala Harris and Donald Trump and their historic showdown that you will see live on CNN in just minutes.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:31:00]
COOPER: Welcome back. Debate night in America, Philadelphia. What you are looking at the spotlight is on that great city and the unprecedented face off that is about to unfold between former President Donald Trump and Vice President Kamala Harris. We are nearing the top of the hour when the debate gets underway.
Vice President Harris just got a last minute message of encouragement from her husband, Second Gentleman Doug Emhoff. He posted on X, "Kamala, I can't wait for everyone to see you in action tonight. You've got this and I've got you."
Back now with the panel. And I first want to start by going over to John King at the Magic Wall, John, let's talk about how this debate figures into the battle for all the important electoral votes.
KING: Anderson, this race is as competitive as can be, which means the stakes tonight in this debate are as big as they could be. I'm showing you the map right now. You see the yellow, those are the seven toss up states plus Nebraska's second congressional district. Nebraska, like Maine, awards Electoral College votes based on congressional districts.
I could go through a number of scenarios here. I'd be wasting your time in the sense that these states are so close. Donald Trump could win all those yellow states. Kamala Harris could win all those yellow states. They could split all those yellow states.
So let me do it this way instead. The way the map is right now. Look how evenly matched they are. Deep red, solid Republican. Deep blue, solid Democrat. The lighter ones mean they're likely. 225 to 219 right now. The battleground states will decide this. Pennsylvania, where they are tonight, by the way, the biggest prize, 19 electoral votes right there.
And I will say these three states right here, the so called blue wall, Pennsylvania, Michigan, Wisconsin, they have voted together in every presidential election since 2000. So if that happens again, that's an enormous advantage.
Let me do it this way, instead of going through all the scenarios I could punch through states at a time. It is quite conceivable that Kamala Harris, with a strong debate tonight and a strong finish, could recreate this. Joe Biden's victory in 2020. That is possible.
These states are so close, those battleground states, remember them here and across here, that that could happen. But equally plausible is this. Donald Trump recreating the map he had in 2016. That is why the stakes of this debate are so enormous as these two candidates go in.
So I'll go back to this map, so it doesn't look like I'm taking sides. We'll put up the 270 map here, and we'll go through some of the dynamics heading into the debate tonight. To me, this is the most critical one. Advantage Trump, challenge for the Vice President.
76 percent of the American people, forgive me for turning my back, in the New York Times/Siena College poll over the weekend, think the economy is in fair or poor shape right now, economic conditions today. 76 percent say fair or poor.
And so then you ask them, well who -- which candidate, which candidate do you trust more when it comes to the economy? And Donald Trump's advantage here, it's a lot of nostalgia, I can tell you from my travels, for the pre-COVID Trump economy. People remember that.
All right, 55 percent say Donald Trump is better handled, better able of these two candidates to handle the economy. That's the Vice President's biggest challenge tonight -- to narrow that gap, to narrow that gap, to make herself more plausible when it comes to the economy.
A couple other quick things I just want to bring into play here. This one is really interesting to me. These candidates enter this debate essentially as equals, not only in the polling, but what the American people think of them. 46 percent favorable, 46 percent favorable, 52 percent unfavorable, 51 percent unfavorable.
Again, who can win this? Who can change minds? You should like me more. You should be open to my positions more. That's a huge challenge in the debate. They're so competitive that it's not just policy, it's what do people think of them as a person coming out of this debate. It's incredibly important there.
Let me move that out of the way. I just want to show you one more thing. This is it, whether it's an advantage or whether it's a challenge, I'll leave to the smart strategists at the table. But people do know Donald Trump. Not that many people know much about any vice president.
This is not a criticism of Kamala Harris. Do you need to know more about? Only 9 percent of likely voters say they need to know more about Donald Trump. So whether you're voting for him, whether you're against him, whether you're still undecided, you think you know him, except for 9 percent of the American people.
There's an opportunity. It's also a challenge. Nearly 3 in 10 Americans, Anderson, say we need to know more about her. So she has a chance tonight to fill in that slate. Donald Trump also has, of course, the chance to fill it in for her.
COOPER: Yes, a chance to define her.
David Axelrod, I know you have a question.
AXELROD: Yes, well, that graphic there is exactly why I said earlier that she needs to spend the preponderance of her time, 70 percent, 80 percent, talking to the American people about where she wants to lead and not getting sidetracked with Trump.
[20:35:09]
But John, I just want to talk about the state where the debate is going on and why it is the focus of both campaigns. Take Pennsylvania out of the equation and then talk about what it would take to replace with this one state.
KING: Oh, if you want to get to 270 without Pennsylvania, well good luck is the answer. So let's take, let's leave it. Let's just leave Pennsylvania as a toss-up. If you're -- let's start with Vice President Harris. Can you get to 270 without Pennsylvania? Yes, but you, you know, you'd have to win Michigan. You'd have to win Wisconsin. So then you're at 250.
And so then what happens? You could recreate what Joe Biden did, right? Joe Biden flipped Georgia. Hadn't gotten Democrat in a very long time, built way back. And then you come out to Arizona. I hadn't gotten Democrat since Ross Perot was on the ballot. You could do it that way.
The so called Sun Belt strategy. It is doable to do it that way. The question is, you know, these states, are they going to stay? Will they flips or blips? Nevada is a state where she's had trouble. So you can see it, you can do it without Pennsylvania. The problem is that's 19, right? So 19. The winner of those 19 gets a huge advantage.
So let's flip it around the other way and come back here. Can Donald Trump get there without Pennsylvania? Well, if you're not winning Pennsylvania, Are you winning Michigan, and are you winning Wisconsin? That's an interesting question, right? So can Trump do that and not win Pennsylvania?
North Carolina, you won it in the Obama campaign in 2008. Historic African-American turnout. It is in play. The demographics say the Democrats should be able to compete there. I will lean at Republican until proven otherwise, right? Until proven otherwise. It's available to Kamala Harris, but they have to do an enormously, almost perfect job in turning out voters. So can you get Trump? If Trump wins Michigan and Wisconsin, if he's not winning Pennsylvania, will he do that? I mean, a lot of people are going to say no. But there, you can get Trump there this way, you get him right there. You win North Carolina, you win Georgia, and you win those two.
Now, if she wins the blue wall, so take these off, right? Let's just do this. If the Democrats hold those, Trump gets the Sun Belt, Trump gets here. This is where it gets really interesting. If Trump holds Arizona, 269 and 262. If Trump can win Nevada I'm not doing this to get people anxious, it could come down to one congressional district.
Harris wins it, she's president. Trump wins it, it goes to the House, he's president, because Republicans control the House. Now, that scenario is most unlikely to happen. I'm just telling you the race is that close right now that we have to look at it.
AXELROD: Most of these states and Pennsylvania particularly are on a razor's edge here in terms of where this race is going. And it gives you a sense of the stakes of this debate.
KING: Right. But, again, to go back to the other map, I just want to show you this, we live in an -- every rule is made to be broken, but we live in such a nationalized environment right now that this was race was close in 2016 and it broke for him. This race was close in 2020, and it broke for Biden.
And so, will they all break together? Who knows? There are different issues in different states. The different -- the economy matters differently, how the economy matters, inflation matters differently. But we have lived in a climate where we're in a very nationalized climate.
The interesting part to me is can anybody do sort of a state by state like they used to do it in the old days? I don't see it. Which is why I think the state -- this debate is so important. If someone comes out of this debate with momentum heading into the end, it's huge. Just ending on your point about Pennsylvania, by leaps and bounds, tens of millions of dollars.
There's more ad spending going into the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania than any other battleground state. The campaigns know those 19 are critical.
COOPER: David Urban?
URBAN: Yes, John, not to be super, to beat the horse here on Pennsylvania, but it's my home state. We've talked about this before, the counties of Erie and Northampton. I don't know if you can get more granular on your map there, but of those two counties, what do you think? I know tonight Phil has some voters in Erie he's talking to. What do you see in those two counties and how do you see those breaking at this point?
KING: I think that having Phil on the ground in Erie is critical tonight because as we talked about before, you see Erie there going for Joe Biden with 50 percent. You see Erie here going for Donald Trump. Let me bring up this just Erie County, 48.6 percent, 49 percent. Look how close it was, 49 to 47. Then you come back to 2020, you know, 50 to 49.
This is one of those swing counties, Erie County there. And then you come all the way over to the other side of the state and you come up here and you get to North Hampton County up here again. These are the swing counties, like, they're like this, right? They're like this.
So what is key there? This is the key challenge, I think, for the Vice President tonight, in the sense that there are a lot of voters, more blue collar voters, people who work with their hands in these places, who remember the pre-Trump COVID economy.
Democrats have had a problem with blue collar voters, high school educated voters. Can the Vice President convince these people she's a better steward for the economy? She'll stress tonight, we're told, her middle class upbringing. Try to contrast, I get the middle class, I get struggle, Donald Trump doesn't.
We'll see if that works. But those -- look, they are twice won by Obama, then won by Trump, then won by Biden. They are the swing flip counties in America, which is why you study them more closely than some of the others.
COOPER: All right, let's go to Jake in Philly.
TAPPER: Thanks so much, Anderson.
And joining us now here in Philadelphia is the Democratic governor of California, Gavin Newsom. Governor Newsom, thanks so much for joining us.
[20:40:00]
So at this point, four years ago, Joe Biden had a healthy lead in polls, eight or nine points. Right now, polls have hailed Harris and Trump neck and neck. If Donald Trump was such a disaster in the way you describe him, why is it so close?
GOV. GAVIN NEWSOM (D), CALIFORNIA: We're divided country. I've got work to do. We've got a grind inch by inch. I think it was just reflected in those maps and the analysis we just heard. No one's naive about that. And I think the answer fundamentally is the inflation scars. The experience that we've had globally, not just in the United States and those things are real.
And that's why it's important for Kamala Harris tonight to not only defend Joe Biden's record, but to talk about how she'll be different to talk about her leadership and the capacity to paint a vision, a compelling vision for the next four years and represent a new generation of leadership at the same time.
TAPPER: One of the things that she was hoping to do in the interview with Dana Bash was explain why she had changed her positions from 2019 to today, especially on issues such as fracking, which is important here in Pennsylvania but also on issues where she once expressed a more liberal point of view when it came to immigration, such as, for example whether or not crossing the border illegally should be even a -- considered a criminal act. Do you think she adequately explained why she has changed her position on those issues?
NEWSOM: I'll leave it to more objective minds than me. But let me just say this. What I do like is her objectivity and I do like her mind. I think it's the mind of a leader. Someone is open argument. Someone is interested in evidence. That's what leaders do. They're not ideologues.
And so I think she expressed a point of view a few years ago. She's evolved in that point of view. And I think that should be complimented. I think at the same time, it should beg the question of the flip flop flip as it relates to abortion of Donald Trump, the flip on marijuana policy, on TikTok, on the fact that Donald Trump himself campaigned to say reduce the national debt and increased it by $4 trillion.
So I think both candidates are subject to review of the rhetoric versus the record. But I don't see it as a negative. I honestly see Harris in the context of those issues as a positive and as a sign of a mature leader.
BASH: Hey, Governor, it's Dana Bash. You know, as I'm hearing you talk, I'm reminded of the fact that you went on Fox News to debate Governor DeSantis and you are familiar with the arena of talking to people who don't always agree with you, and that's a good example.
What do you think that Kamala Harris needs to take from that point of view, if anything, as she's trying to reach out to those who might not know her, might maybe what they've heard about her that they don't really like, or are they're just unsure of? What's the key thing she needs to do?
NEWSOM: Well, I think it's both and I think she has incredible opportunity. It's a gift to be on a stage like this and be able to introduce herself for those that don't know her, reintroduce herself for those that know a little bit about her. I think she began to do that at the DNC, talking about her own history that started a compelling why.
And I think we all want to know why. What's your motivation? Why do you seek this office, the most powerful office on the land? At the same time, what is in it for me? Meaning, are you focused on me? Are you focus on my future? Are you focus on my tomorrows.
And again, that's an opportunity to pivot a bit from the Biden record, the Biden-Harris record and begin to paint that vision for the future. So that's the end part. That's the next part of the case she needs to prosecute tonight, not just the case against Donald Trump. And I expect she's going to make that case.
She will not be timid. She is tough and she's going to bring it to Donald Trump. But at the same time, she's going to prosecute the case for a compelling vision for the future of this country where people feel heard, respected, connected, and protected.
BASH: Governor, a source tells CNN that Hillary Clinton thinks that baiting Trump into self-destruction is one of the best things that she can do. A, do you agree with that? And B, you have been friends with Kamala Harris since your days as young lawyers in San Francisco. Have you spoken to her as she is prepped and have you given her any advice?
NEWSOM: I don't give advice, I take it. But in this context, I've been very engaged with the campaign and the candidate and just campaigning today with her husband. That said, one thing I know about Kamala Harris, she is prepped, she's ready and she will get under Donald Trump's skin.
Donald Trump is so easily manipulated. Hillary Clinton is exactly right. I don't expect Trump will get under her skin. I'm very, very concerned if I was representing the Trump campaign with these two- minute answers, two-minute response, the one-minute follow-up.
[20:45:02]
There's no chance in my mind, after a few minutes in this debate that he doesn't fall prey to who he actually is. He can't change his very nature and he will react and he will digress. And with respect to Donald Trump, I find him particularly derivative of himself. He's increasingly boring.
There was an entertainment value to him a few -- even a few years ago, that seems to have lost him -- he's lost it a little bit. And so I expect that could come off as very boorish tonight. And I expect that to be a key to the outcome of this debate in a very favorable light for Kamala Harris.
TAPPER: Governor, President Trump obviously says a lot of outlandish and just plain false things about elections and vote counting. He recently said, quote, "If Jesus Christ came down and was the vote counter, I would win California," unquote. What do you have to say to that?
NEWSOM: He's unhinged. I mean, that -- no other serious person could say that and have been taken seriously and he was serious about it. He actually believes this. That's how delusional he is. The fact that he thinks he's strength, he's weakness masquerading as strength. He's a broken person, and he's always tried to overcompensate for that.
I mean, and so, look, I think what we're going to see tonight, if we see a lot more of that, this pity party, this victimization, oh, poor Donald Trump, he loses this debate, particularly again if she can make the case for you and me and the people watching. If she's talking about us and he's talking about his grievances that somehow now, he even won California, this is a -- this debate, she wins walking away.
TAPPER: Governor Gavin Newsom of the great state of California, thank you so much. Appreciate your time.
Anderson?
COOPER: Jake, thanks very much.
We are less than 14 minutes away from this debate, one of the most consequential debates probably in any presidential race, certainly in my lifetime.
JONES: And I'm proud of Kamala Harris. I voted for Kamala Harris when she was a district attorney. I voted for her when she was attorney general. I voted for her for vice president. I'm going to vote for her for president.
And I think we should just take a minute. She doesn't like to talk about the history. She doesn't want to go there, but I don't mind going there. This is a black woman, an Indian-American woman who is going to be standing next to Donald Trump.
It's down to two. It's down to two. One of these people is going to be our president this time next year and I'm excited to see what she does. And I think if she -- everything that Gavin said is true. This guy is losing it. The fizz is coming out of the soda with Donald Trump. It's time to turn the page. You're going to do it tonight.
COOPER: I don't want to hype this up, but, I mean, it is just extraordinary. I mean, we were all together at that last debate. You know --
URBAN (?): By the way, you said that at the last debate.
COOPER: I know, but --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And it was true.
COOPER: I know. We were all thinking, oh, this is a really -- going to be a really consequential debate, but we had no idea --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE).
COOPER: I was, but we had no idea. It just -- what was going to happen on that stage? And in truth, we -- I mean, there's no telling what is going to happen in 13 minutes.
GRIFFIN: Well, you're dealing with a wildly unpredictable actor in Donald Trump. He's the X factor. I don't think that we expect Kamala Harris is in any way going to majorly go off the rails. I think she's largely going to stick to what she rehearsed, but this is also a historic night for other reasons.
I hope this isn't what she litigates tonight strategically, but this is a man who refused to concede an election, tried to steal an election, is -- has many felony counts against him, has pending trials, and he is eight weeks away from potentially being president elect of the United States. That's also a historic context that lingers --
COOPER: It will be interesting though, if -- you know, you said she's going to stick with what she rehearsed and to not go off the rails, you know, we talked to her after the last debate. And, you know, it became slightly contentious, and she got annoyed, and she did go off script --
AXELROD (?): Yes.
COOPER: -- and was far more effective than she was when she was on script. And it'd be curious to see who shows up tonight and whether there are those moments where it's clearly she's exasperated and she responds.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
JENNINGS: I don't think she's likely to go off the rails. I mean, but to me, that's not the issue for her. It's two words. Plausibility and responsibility. You know, Trump's been the president, so he's plausible in this office for most viewers.
But she's --
COOPER: Well, I don't know -- I mean, let's not --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's a big leap.
JENNINGS: At least for Scott and I.
COOPER: OK.
JENNINGS: But she's the Vice President and people have to believe that you can ascend to the office and hold the office. But more importantly, it's responsibility. How much are people going to hold her responsible for the current administration?
That's really the game because people want change and decisions have been made and can Trump Focus the debate on that. And if she -- and if he does, how will she absorb that? Is she going to stick with Biden?
COOPER: Actually --
(CROSSTALK)
COOPER: Well, Ashley, what do you think?
ALLISON: We use different language to describe people. So we say go off the rails, go off the rails for Kamala Harris means something totally different than go off the rails for Donald Trump. And I think we should just be mindful about that application of different types of candidates.
20:50:05]
What I know is that nobody can predict what is going to happen. But tonight, there are probably people who are going to watch the television screen and see something that they never thought was possible in their life. And I just want to say when one of the candidates on there, many of us feel like are constantly undermining our democracy, which debate free speech is part of it.
This, if you want this in the future, you might want to take a listen to Kamala Harris.
AXELROD: It will be interesting to see who looks like the most responsible person on that stage.
COOPER: We're getting an update on what Donald Trump has been doing in these final minutes before the debate. I quickly want to go to Kristen Holmes. What are you learning?
HOLMES: Yes, Anderson. Just a few moments ago, Donald Trump was facetiming into what they have set up as a social media war room that is here in Philadelphia and is made up of some conservative influencers who have the most followers in the country. That's millions of people online.
Now this shows you the effort they're making tonight might not necessarily be to reach independent or moderate voters, but instead to have these conservative, sometimes in cases far right influencers reaching out to their core bases, not necessarily people who normally head to the polls in November and feeding them information about the debate.
Remember, a lot of the people that Donald Trump is now courting aren't people who normally get their news on politics or engage in politics in a direct way. So it was clear now part of this strategy is playing out on social media. So just moments ago, he was FaceTiming into that room, telling them good luck and saying that he was happy they were there to support him.
COOPER: All right. David, I mean, again, you've been in these rooms back at these debates with 10 minutes to go, nine minutes to go. Does -- is the candidate looking at notes that were -- I talked to Doris Kearns Goodwin the other day, she was talking about JFK on the day of the debate, you know, sitting on his bed looking at three by five cards.
AXELROD: Yes. Like in that second debate I talked about in 2012, President Obama had outlined in -- on two -- one page reverse. His outline for 14 answers to the 14 most likely questions he was going to get. He had in his mind how they were going to play out and he reviewed that for the day before they --
COOPER: Were they -- were those questions asked?
AXELROD: Yes. And, I mean, you always have to improvise a little because it doesn't always -- it doesn't come down the way you exactly plan. But he, you know, if you prepare properly, your team knows how you're going to handle given situations. And we were comfortable in that debate that we did and he did.
COOPER: Yes, yes.
CORNISH: Briefly, can we bring it back to Kristen's reporting? That is very important and you and I were talking about it earlier. Who is his focus in the final moments? That social media sphere of the manosphere, like the sort of right-wing MAGA warriors online who are doing the work to compete with the Kamala Harris social media presence. The fact that that's where he's spending his effort tells us who he wants to speak to tonight.
URBAN: It may not just be all MAGA.
COOPER: Let her finish. Let her finish.
CORNISH: It could -- but the point is amplification, that's the point of social media is amplification. But because of our silos, it's going to be directed to certain communities. And he's already doing extremely well with white men, with non-college degrees. And I think tonight we're going to hear Donald Trump who is still focused on certain communities.
COOPER: Jake, let's go back to you.
TAPPER: Thanks, Anderson.
Let's talk about Kamala Harris strengths and weaknesses as a debater. She certainly doesn't have as much experience on this level. She participated, Chris and Abby, in the June 2019 debates running for the Democratic nomination, had some strong moments, but what do you think are her strengths and weaknesses?
WALLACE: Well, I think that when she is prepared and on offense, she's very good and everybody remembers the 2019 takedown of Joe Biden on the issue of busing. And I am that little girl who was the second class to desegregate a school in California.
She is less adept when she's on defense and she's being presented with a new situation and people talk about in 2019 when Tulsi Gabbard went after her about her record as a prosecutor in San Francisco and put a lot of people in jail for smoking pot. So, we know that when she's prepared, she's good. When she's not and taken by surprise, and Donald Trump is very good at throwing a curveball at you.
PHILLIP: Yes, I think that's exactly right. I mean, she is a huge preparer. I mean, people who work for her say she spends so much time sort of digging into the sort of planning leading up to a debate. That's what she did a lot in the 2020 election cycle. And what she's been doing in Pittsburgh, basically a bootcamp of sorts with her aides.
But the challenge for her is that Trump is an unpredictable person and she has to -- have the ability to think on her feet. She's best when she's prepared and she's planned for a moment. But when something unusual comes up, she's going to have to respond. I think that's going to be the biggest challenge.
I also remember sitting, you know, on the set, in the last debate that you all were moderating, and there's a degree of humility that I know I'm going into this debate with, which is that we really don't -- you know, I think the expectations are kind of neutral for me right now.
[20:55:08]
We don't know what to expect. And these candidates depending on what's going on in their lives at any given moment can show up in all kinds of ways on that debate stage. We'll just have to wait and see.
BASH: Yes. We've been out of the prediction business for some time --
PHILLIP: For sure.
BASH: -- particularly after the last debate. But I also think we should note that this is not a far in the future thing that's happening tonight. Next week, Wisconsin is going to start to vote. They can start their mail-in votes.
North Carolina was supposed to start this week, but the -- there was a legal dispute with RFK Jr. being on the ballot. So that has been delayed, but this is going to be directed at voters who are not yet sure what they're going to do and we'll be able to start voting so soon.
COLLINS: Can I say one thing that I'm watching for tonight that we haven't talked about is Project 2025, because what we saw in that New York Times/Siena College poll that came out on Sunday, is that the attacks by Democrats and by Vice President Harris specifically to tie Trump to it have been effective.
Despite Trump saying he has nothing to do with it, which the founder who stepped down of Project 2025 told me last night, though he did concede he's been to Mar-a-Lago. He's met Trump's campaign manager, Susie Wiles.
The polling shows that that three-fourths of voters know about Project 2025 --
BASH: It's amazing.
COLLINS: -- and the majority of those who do know about it are opposed to the policies that are included in it. And so they are intrinsically linking it with Donald Trump. Donald Trump, I am told, is prepared to talk about that tonight.
They are expecting Vice President Harris to bring it up like she's been bringing it up on the campaign trail. But it's been something that a year ago, none of us were talking about, despite the fact that it's been about two years into the making. And it is something that Democrats have been able to use and that has really frustrated the Trump campaign.
BASH: Can I just --
TAPPER: So let's just talk about for one second, the moment that we're in, because we're literally just minutes away from, I mean, the debate with Joe Biden was, I think it's fair to say because of President Biden's performance, the most consequential debate in history that scared democratic operatives and democratic office holders and democratic activists so much that he, in an unprecedented fashion, step down.
Now, we have this, a new, unprecedented matchup between Harris and Trump. And we have no idea what's going to happen and it could very well end up just as consequential.
WALLACE: Well, I'm going to make a very deep analysis and say that they're about to walk out on the stage. And one of the first things we're going to notice is the difference in size. Donald Trump is literally almost a foot taller than Kamala Harris.
And it'll be interesting to see whether Trump takes advantage of that and goes over to shake her hand. I remember back in 1988 when Michael Dukakis was about a half a foot shorter than George H.W. Bush. They went over and a lot of people thought that Bush held on to Dukakis's hand a little bit longer to emphasize I'm bigger than you, and Dukakis had had like a pitcher's mound set up behind the podium that he climbed up on.
Now they don't have that here --
BASH: Yes.
WALLACE: -- but if you look at those two podiums, hers is smaller than his is. So --
COLLINS: She's much younger than him. That's going to be the other contrast. You know, the last time he and Joe Biden, obviously, were not that far apart, there was a huge age gap.
TAPPER: And she's about 20 -- almost 20 years younger.
PHILLIP: But the other thing, I mean, sorry, Dana --
BASH: OK.
PHILLIP: -- I actually was going to direct this at you, because I think that we -- as we've covered, you know, the Hillary Clintons of the world, I mean, there's a psychology about being a female candidate in a moment like this, about how comfortable you want to feel on the stage, how firm you want to be in these moments.
Navigating that has been, I think, some of the work that she's been doing in debate prep is thinking through what does she want to present herself like on that stage? And perhaps she's talked to Hillary Clinton, we know that already this past week, but perhaps one of the things that previous female candidates have told her is not to overthink some of that stuff.
BASH: Yes.
PHILLIP: Because I think Hillary did some of that back in 2016.
BASH: Yes, you just have to do -- I mean, if you look at the way she presented herself at the convention, I'm told that is what she's going to try to do. Just look like a commander-in-chief, be in command, be confident, and try not to let him rattle her.
I will just say we are going to be doing some commentary on CNN.com, so you're going to be able to hear what we're all saying while this is going on -- or read it, I should say on CNN.com. TAPPER: That's right, and that's coming up in one second. And stay right here to see every moment of this historic presidential debate live on CNN. Our debate continue -- coverage continues right now.
COOPER: We are less than a minute away from the main event in Philadelphia tonight, the unprecedented debate between Vice President Kamala Harris and former President Donald Trump. The candidates inside the National Constitution Center right now getting ready to take their places on stage.
I'm Anderson Cooper. This is CNN's special coverage of Debate Night in America.
TAPPER: And I'm Jake Tapper in the great city of Philadelphia.
