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Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees

Six Days Out: Trump, Harris Both Stump In Battleground Wisconsin; House Speaker Johnson Responds After He Said "No More Obamacare" If Trump Reelected; Harris And Trump Host Dueling Events In Wisconsin Six Days Before Election; CNN Poll Shows Harris Has A Narrow Edge In Wisconsin, Michigan, And Tied With Trump In Pennsylvania. Aired 8-9p ET

Aired October 30, 2024 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN CHIEF DOMESTIC CORRESPONDENT: Now, it's at a two- to-one margin. We also know the Harris campaign has a ground game behemoth in the state, more than double the offices of the Trump team very, very real effort underway, more than a million doors expected to be knocked on just in the coming days.

The reality is, you really don't know until we have a winner, that will tell you whether it worked or not -- Erin.

ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: Sure, will, especially if it works in the face of having half as many people on the ground, I mean this is amazing to see. All right, Phil, thank you and thanks as always to all of you. Anderson starts now.

[20:00:36]

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: Tonight on 360 with both candidates barnstorming through the battleground states, there's late new polling on the state of play and we'll take a look at the latest numbers.

Also tonight, just days before the election, new video obtained by CNN of House Speaker Mike Johnson saying if Trump wins, he'll work to eliminate Obamacare, the Affordable Care Act, which millions of voters rely on.

And later, where some Trump supporters getting their information. Donie O'Sullivan, they watched a pro-Trump TV to see what some voters are seeing from deep inside the bunker.

Good evening, thanks for joining us.

With just six campaigning days left, the candidates are now matching each other state per state across the electoral map. The former president is talking right now in Green Bay, Wisconsin, those are live pictures. The vice president meantime, also in Wisconsin for an appearance shortly in Madison, both she and her opponent were in North Carolina earlier today.

We will go live in a moment to Madison where CNN's Jeff Zeleny has been talking to his campaign sources about among other things, new CNN polling from Wisconsin. Take a look, it shows the vice president with a six-point lead there, a five-point lead in Michigan, both are outside the margin of error.

In Pennsylvania, though it is all even at 48. CNN's John King starts us off with more.

So John, I mean, looking at these numbers, what stands out to you?

JOHN KING, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Largely positive for the vice president, they show competitive races in all three of these blue wall states, Anderson. I'll just show you, I'll bring up my friend the mini magic wall is with me here. Remember these are the blue wall states, Pennsylvania, Michigan, Wisconsin, our new polling shows the vice president you noted leads in Michigan and in Wisconsin, a tie in Pennsylvania, why do these states matter?

Well, Joe Biden flipped them back to blue in 2020, he's president. In 2016, if you go back in election, you know, Hillary Clinton lost all three of those states. That was Donald Trump's big surprise and he was president, so the blue wall states have mattered, have been decisive in the last two presidential elections.

One other way to look at it as this way, if you look at the vice president's path to 270 electoral votes, if she can hold those leads, this is where we all right now to 226 to 219. If she can hold those leads in Wisconsin and in Michigan, well look how close she is, right? Her path, bam, if she can just get Pennsylvania that gets her there right there.

So no path is easy, but that is her easiest path to 270 Pennsylvania, Michigan, Wisconsin. These polls show us she is less than a week to go so in play to possibly do that.

COOPER: Do we know when -- I mean, when were these polls taken? Was this before the Trump rally with the slurs against various groups?

KING: Right, that's an important thing to note. The polls are several -- they're taken several days ago and then you take a few days to process them. So events can change things. That's one of the things you're watching. It's also why we will say a hundred times, don't ever invest in just one poll. If your average, as our great polling team does the recent battleground state polls, it would show Michigan and Wisconsin a little bit closer than our polling.

So, you have the question, did we catch a break her way or is it just our polls, we've got a little bigger lead and another one has a different and you average them out? But if you look in the weeds of these polls there are some concerns for the vice president among Black voters in Pennsylvania and Michigan. There's some good numbers for the vice president when you look at the suburbs.

So again, don't invest in only one poll, with a few days left this does show her easiest path. Go ahead.

COOPER: Yes, and just let's just drill down on those numbers because among likely Black voters in Michigan, Harris gets 83 percent in Pennsylvania, 76 percent. That's running behind Biden in 2020.

KING: It is running and its running significantly behind Biden in 2020. Now, the Harris campaign says it doesn't believe that's what's going to happen on election day. And in our travels, we see a lot of emphasis on early voting in the Black community, including here in Milwaukee today. But I'm showing you Philadelphia right now, not just for the percentage.

If you want to win Pennsylvania as a Democrat, you need to do that. But not just the 80 percent, look at the math. You need the high turnout, right? I blocked it out a little bit by scribbling too hard. But you see look at the big number there and there. Joe Biden wins the state by 80,000 votes. Look at that giant margin in Philadelphia.

It is that margin in Philadelphia, which is largely the Black community that helps you offset all of that Trump red in the rural areas.

So, that is a bit of a warning sign in Pennsylvania and then if you come over again to Michigan where we will be tomorrow, the Detroit area, Wayne County is obviously where the Black turnout is huge. And again, look not just at the percentage Biden got, but the math, the size of the margin helps you win the state.

Again, the Harris campaign thinks it won't be as bad as these numbers would say. But she's running stronger in the suburbs. She's running well among White non-college workers. That's something they need to keep an eye on without a doubt. And it's a place where the Trump campaign vows and promises, it will surprise us come election day.

COOPER: Yes, to that point, Harris is running ahead of both Biden and Clinton with White non-college educated voters in Wisconsin, pulling in 43 percent. How crucial is that in Wisconsin?

KING: Well, you just mentioned where the former vice president is today -- the former president, excuse me. So Brown County is where Green Bay, Wisconsin is, right? You see that on the map right here. You see his win over Joe Biden in 2020, right? You see 65,000 votes, 75,000 votes, or roughly 10,000 vote margin there, right?

[20:05:18]

Donald Trump won the county. Why am I focusing on that margin? Joe Biden loses again, this state was decided by 20,000 votes both times 2016 and 2020. Joe Biden lost that county by 10,000 votes, right? Go back in time again. Let me move this up a little bit, sorry, I have to move to get to 2016, now, I'll come back. Let me come back over for you here.

Now, you come back to Wisconsin and you go to Brown County again in 2016, what's the difference? Look at the bigger margin, Hillary Clinton loses it by almost 14,000 votes. So the math matters, even in places you are losing, the margins matter.

So, if vice president Harris is running close to Biden's numbers with White non-college educated voters, that makes a difference in Brown County, Wisconsin; it makes it different in Luzerne County, Pennsylvania, the margins within the margins if you will, the small battlegrounds within the battlegrounds states. If she can hold that number plus her suburban number just to work on the Black voter number.

But again, if you look in the weeds of these polls, if our poll is correct heading into the final days of the campaign, it does show, again, it's not easy, but the vice president's easiest path to victory, Anderson, is within striking distance.

COOPER: And let me just ask you, I mean, do you buy polls? I mean, I do buy these numbers. I know, I know. I mean, there's a lot of great people working on this and work very hard on it. And I think there's just a lot of distrust of polls. Do you buy them?

KING: I don't invest in them. I use them for trajectory, right? So these, these polls, which way is the arrow bending and I study much more, where's the Black vote? Where's the suburban vote? Where is the college-educated vote? What do the subgroups tell me?

And then you come out and you travel in these states and you talk to people and you show up at the early voting sites and you see what happened.

I will say this, this is one of the giant questions, in both 2016 and 2020, I just said, these polls are relatively good news for the vice president of the United States. Well, I want to add this caveat. In both 2016 and 2020, we know that in the battleground states, Donald Trump over performed his polling numbers, in almost every poll. And so, the polls in the end showed Donald Trump at a point in the battleground states, he ran better than that.

Now, the pollsters will tell you they've worked really hard to adjust to try to get the Trump vote right? Do they have it right this time or will he overperform again? In the 2018 midterms, the Democrats overperformed what the poll said, in 2022, midterms, excuse and we know what happened then, the Democrats had a much better year than people anticipated.

So, I don't buy them in the sense that I think they're exactly right. You look at them for trajectory, which ways are going, you study beneath them. So, they are a tool, they're not everything -- Anderson.

All right. John, we're going to talk to you later on for a drill down in what you've seen in Wisconsin today.

From Milwaukee now to Madison in the Harris event, CNN's Jeff Zeleny is there for us.

Jeff, what can we expect to hear from Vice President Harris tonight?

JEFF ZELENY, CNN SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: We expect the Vice President Harris to really take that closing argument on the road. We saw her deliver last night at Washington; she's been doing it, in North Carolina, Pennsylvania, and expected to do so here in Wisconsin, talking about seeking common ground, talking about trying to find common sense solutions.

But it's a very fine line to walk because at the very same time, she is also trying to draw a sharp contrast with Donald Trump. What she is trying to do is avoid talking about any of the controversy you've seen on cable news or the former president talking about those garbage comments.

This is something that is not necessarily on the minds of voters, so I'm told that vice president Harris is going to continue to press the case, how she would be a president for all people, not simply those who vote for her. But, this is get out to vote time perhaps you can hear the rally behind me. This is a concert.

Gracie Abrams, just performing now, there'll be other performers. This is a rally for the people who have voted. The campaign that was more focused on those who have not.

COOPER: All right. Jeff Zeleny, thanks very much. I want to get perspective now from CNN political commentators Ashley Allison, Scott Jennings, also, Gretchen Carlson, journalism co-founder of Lift Our Voices.

Ashley, I mean, I don't know what you think about these polls. Interesting that I mean, she seems to be this slightly uptake in these latest polls, whether that's real or not, how do you see the race right now?

ASHLEY ALLISON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I don't I'm not a big believer in polls, even though when they say things that I like. Meaning that the person that I think should win, Kamala Harris is up.

I haven't been in Michigan or Wisconsin in this cycle, but I was in Pennsylvania and I was in North Carolina. And I think the narrative a little bit, if you're on the internet and Twitter, is that it's all Trump country out there, like in the Black community it is very Donald Trump heavy and we are just not seeing that. The door knockers that are going on canvases.

COOPER: You were canvassing in Philadelphia?

ALLISON: Yes, and what we're seeing is there are actually more undecided voters than I would like to believe that they really are and the decision is, am I actually going to go vote?

But there are some voters, predominantly more White voters, who are saying, do I want to vote for Kamala Harris? They are not thinking about voting for Donald Trump, but they're thinking about maybe sitting it out.

[20:10:19]

And I think that that is what you might be picking up in these polls, even though I don't think it is telling.

I think she is has a fantastic ground game right now that is trying to convert. And I just got a report out of Arizona that they saw no operation for Donald Trump on the doors and converting voters. So, this really is a turnout game.

And the final thing I'll just say is because of the condensed timeline of her candidacy, I think these last five to six days actually do matter. I think the rally in Madison Square Garden does have an impact on people who were going to vote in-person.

I think her performance on the Eclipse, it does get people excited these new -- there are so many new ads just dropping like at this point, most ads or just packaged and repackaged. But new content is dropping and I think that is actually touching though some of those undecided voters.

GRETCHEN CARLSON, JOURNALIST: I think it's, you know, what is going to make people feel compelled to go and vote on Tuesday or to go and vote early tomorrow.

And so, I would agree with Ashley on that sense of a feeling. And so, did they feel that watching her at the Ellipse? Did they feel that hearing Biden with the gaffe for Trump?

I mean, we'll never know, but the one thing in the CNN polls that I thought was incredibly interesting to your point, Ashley, was how many people are still undecided? You have six percent in Michigan, six percent in Pennsylvania, five percent in Wisconsin. That is much higher than I envisioned at this point in time.

We're in the weeds in this every single day, and so we hear from people who are -- who have decided a long time ago who they're voting for. But the idea that people are still making up their minds to my original point of feeling, what is it going to be that's going to tip them over the edge and none of us know the answer to that.

COOPER: Scott, do you believe these polls?

SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I think it's close. I mean, I've wondered if all media outlets are just not taking any polls for the last six months, what will we do with all them? We have an amazing Christmas party, you know, I mean, it's a tight race. It's tight nationally. It's tight in these swing states.

I think some of these people who are undecided tell pollsters that because they want to have seem like they're discerning, but they have a gut feeling about how they feel about certainly Donald Trump. They may not have as much of a gut about Kamala Harris because she's come into the race lesser known.

I agree with Ashley, I think some people are deciding whether to vote at all. I think for Trump, it's this low propensity play, low- propensity men, people who have little engagement with the news, little engagement with their civic affairs in this country. Maybe they never vote, maybe they only voted once or twice in their lives. Getting them out is obviously vital.

And for Harris, she has her own cohort of voters that are in the same boat, like people who need to be given a vibe about, yes, this is going to manifestly impact my life if I don't get out and do this. So, I think ultimately at the end of the race, I agree with Gretchen. There is something about these events and the news cycles that give you a certain kind of energy or a vibe about a campaign. I'll just say Republicans feel confident. Some people are taking it as an article of faith that he will over perform because he did in the last two elections, I would just caution everyone to say, you don't know that. He might, but you don't really know that. You cannot take that to the bank.

And so, if you're expecting that on election night, just know it's not something you can necessarily bank.

ALLISON: Can I -- I have a theory on why there are so many undecided voters? I think that for so long, people did not want Donald Trump and Joe Biden rematch that when the ticket flipped, people just said, oh thank God I don't have to do that again, and they just stopped paying attention.

And so, now in this very short stretch, it kind of worked to Kamala Harris' favor because it gave her some time to get her footing, but I actually think that's why so many people are still having this question mark. Because think about it, most -- like most of the time at this point, you would have been hearing from this person for a year.

CARLSON: One other quick thing I want to say that's not a poll, but actual hard numbers and that is in the battleground states, there's a ten-point gender gap right now.

ALLISON: Yes.

CARLSON: With women and men, meaning there's more women by far coming out to vote early in the battleground states than men. That's a hard and fast number. We don't know how they're voting, but I think that's significant.

COOPER: The former president does seem to be laying the groundwork to contest the results. Certainly in Pennsylvania, he posted on social media saying Pennsylvania is cheating and getting caught at large scale levels rarely seen before. I mean, his rarely seen before is like a verbal tic for him. He said report cheating to authorities, law enforcement must act now. What is he referring to?

JENNINGS: There is a story in Lancaster County in Pennsylvania about fraudulent voter registrations that there is an active and ongoing investigation into some kind of fraudulent voter registration activity. So, some people have picked up on this.

I would just say for my part, I have all the confidence in the world we're going to have a free, fair, honest election in this country.

I strongly believe in the diffuse nature of our elections. Local volunteers, local clerks, secretaries of state, no one central controlling authority. I think it's what makes American elections unique and very, very secure. So I have a lot of confidence in the American election system. [20:15:14]

COOPER: All right, let's move on. Much more ahead tonight, coming up, Obamacare, millions count on it for healthcare. The former president said in his only debate, he has concepts of plan to replace it, tonight, though video of House Speaker Mike Johnson promising to try to do just that in a second Trump term.

Also, John King comes back, with his stops this week All Over The Map. This time talking with voters in Wisconsin.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:20:03]

COOPER: Tonight House Speaker Mike Johnson appears to be doing cleanup after being caught on camera, promising to do precisely what Donald Trump recently promised not to do, namely end the Affordable Care Act. Health policy or Obamacare, you remember was a major driver of voters to the polls in 2018, 2020, and 2022, the Affordable Care Act, unpopular when it began now no longer is.

Back in April in a video on social media, the former president said he's "not running to terminate the ACA," instead, he promised to, "make it much better, much stronger" even though he tried to eliminate it for many, many years, in his entire administration.

Today, though CNN obtained video taken on Monday at a Trump volunteer office in Bethlehem, Pennsylvania of House Speaker Johnson saying this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA): Healthcare reform is going to be a big part of the agenda. When I say were going to have a very aggressive first hundred days agenda, We've got a lot of things on the table.

REPORTER: No Obamacare?

JOHNSON: No more Obamacare.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: "No more Obamacare" he said.

Last month, the Treasury Department reported that nearly 50 million Americans have been covered by it over the last ten years. Well, tonight Speaker Johnson said in a statement, "Despite the dishonest characterization from the Harris campaign, the audio and transcript, make clear that I offered no such promise to end up Obamacare, and in fact, acknowledged that the policy is 'deeply ingrained' in our health care system."

The Trump campaign offered a shorter version saying, "repealing Obamacare is not President Trump's policy position."

Back now with the panel, does it make sense with less than a week to go that he would be saying these things?

All right, let me get clearly, he was just going along with what somebody shouted out.

ALLISON: No, I don't think he's just going along with it.

COOPER: Well, I'm not saying, he has to believe it but -- but --

ALLISON: No, I think he probably -- I don't know why in this day and age you wouldn't think there's always a camera on you with cell phones and whatnot, but I think he does want to repeal Obamacare, I think we saw 60 - 61 times. They tried to repeal Obamacare. I just -- a couple of points here.

One, this is why people question the consistency of Donald Trump and the inconsistency of Donald Trump when he says, oh, I wouldn't sign a national abortion ban is because the people that you said at a rally that at some big old plan to Mike Johnson about what you have in store when you win the election.

So, what does that plan? Is it no more Obamacare like Speaker Johnson said? It's why when people connect Donald Trump to Project 2025 and they say, oh, his hands aren't on it, is because they do want to get rid of health care in Project 2025.

COOPER: We should also point out that Donald Trump ran in 2016 on eliminating Obamacare. I remember in endless interviews. He was like day one, he will eliminate it and within the hour, my plan is going to be in place and it's going to be better and you know --

ALLISON: And Obamacare is great. Obamacare -- people love Obamacare. It's not perfect, it's not perfect. But many, many more Americans have Obamacare and that is why John McCain did the infamous, no, I'm not voting for it because he knew also knew his constituents liked Obamacare.

JENNINGS: The ship has clearly sailed on repealing it. And Johnson made that clear. It's ingrained in our system. But what must be done and I think what the Republicans are going to focus on is prices. I mean, people feel like they're paying more and more and more for insurance and getting less and less coverage.

So, that is what they want to deal with. I think they're extremely concerned about transparency. Nobody knows exactly what's in these medical bills you get. Also, I talked to a senior member of the House Republican conference tonight who was directly involved in policymaking on health care. He said, right out of the gate, we will not do anything to jeopardize pre-existing conditions.

So when I hear that, what I hear is Republicans understand the political contours in which they're operating. And they're going to act accordingly, but they will not ignore the fact that prices have gone up and coverage has gotten the worst for millions upon millions of Americans.

COOPER: But why, if they were running on this in 2016 and I mean, this was widely talked about, this was target number one.

JENNINGS: Well, why did I give up trying to dunk a basketball in my driveway because if you try so many times and fall on your face, you move on that you'll either lower the goal or you start shooting the three pointer.

CARLSON: It was only because of John McCain that there was not an overhaul about this several years ago. What I see in this whole thing is Donald Trump called the Speaker of the House and said, what are you talking about? Because this was not supposed to come up in the last couple of days, something that would be opposed by millions of Americans.

COOPER: It seems to me it has not gotten more attention, frankly, I mean, it's a pretty -- it seems to me a pretty huge thing that he sort of let this, I mean, he just said out loud, yes, no more Obamacare.

CARLSON: But again, there are no plans and Donald Trump in the debate, he didn't have any plans in the debates out there either.

COOPER: Didn't he say that were concepts?

ALLISON: Concepts --

COOPER: He said he had concepts of a plan.

JENNINGS: Well, there are things that the Republicans have been looking into in the House streamlining middlemen and the system PBM reform, for example. Again, this transparency thing is a big deal to Republicans, but the overall goal, and I would think both parties would agree on this is how can the price keep going up, but people continue to feel like they're getting less and less coverage. That's not true if you already are on Medicaid or something, you're getting it for free.

But for people who pay premiums, who continuously feel like their coverage is getting worse, something should be done and the next party, whoever is in the majority is going to be a slim majority should do something about it.

[20:25:16]

ALLISON: Yes, but I just want to draw the contrast is that in the Biden administration, they capped the price of insulin, they negotiated prescription drug cost. Kamala Harris has rolled out where her plans would be. It's just again, the contrast is that, he said what he said, no more Obamacare. Like I don't like to put in people's mouth so like, I can only --

COOPER: It's also interesting because the knock on her has been from Republicans is that she has no plans.

ALLISON: That's right.

COOPER: Whereas she has rolled up plans on this and --

JENNINGS: What's the plan, a status quo? I mean --

ALLISON: Well, she talked about expanding coverage towards caregivers because right now most of them don't have coverage, she talked about not just doing negotiating prescription drug prices under Medicare, but expanding on all prescription drug prices.

JENNINGS: The issue is premiums, premiums are going up. People feel like they're getting less coverage, to me, if I were just -- if I were a health-care focused voter and I were looking at my premiums going up all the time and feeling like it doesn't even feel like I have insurance at all. I'd be looking for one of these two parties --

COOPER: Is Donald Trump talking about that?

ALLISON: No.

CARLSON: No, it's not a high priority.

COOPER: Scott, this is new, I'm like, this --

ALLISON: Like, you're doing great, you're doing great but --

JENNINGS: Mike Johnson, look, I will tell you this and House races across the country. I am certain that --

COOPER: You're saying Mike Johnson wants to do that but Mike Johnson said no more Obamacare.

JENNINGS: No, I think what he was -- my understanding what he was saying is no more -- we're not going to be repealing Obamacare because it's too ingrained, we have to do massive reforms because we're not happy with the process.

COOPER: So he meant no more attempts to repeal Obamacare does not, no more Obamacare like he actually said?

ALLISON: -- has been busy, you spending so much.

JENNINGS: Look, the House of Representative is going to be a narrow majority one way or the other, how much controversial stuff either party is going to be able to crank through?

COOPER: You're right, there's not even a controversy.

CARLSON: I think the most important thing that Scott said tonight from his source on "The Hill" is that they're not going to change pre- existing conditions. Let's just boil it down to what's the most popular thing about Obamacare, is that people got coverage and for a longer period time with their children.

ALLISON: Yes.

CARLSON: That is what they are most concerned about and yes, drug prices and care for the elderly and all of that falls way below that.

JENNINGS: Yes, the inflation crisis in this country that we've had for the last four years had healthcare almost worse than anything, people know it, people feel it, whoever is in the majority and whoever is in the White House, if they don't tackle this, it's a political malpractice.

ALLISON: I agree with you, I just don't -- I just really don't think healthcare is a winning issue that Republicans should be bringing up the week before the election, especially when you say no more Obamacare, that ad writes itself.

COOPER: I wish Ashley, I was actually, I was thinking you'd encourage them to be bringing it up the week before --

ALLISON: I give for your advice, you know.

COOPER: Okay, Ashley Allison, Scott Jennings, thank you, Gretchen Carlson as well.

Coming up, John King returns with more on what voters in Wisconsin are saying about the race as part of his "All Over The Map" series, that's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:32:00]

COOPER: As we mentioned at the top of the program, the former president is speaking now in Green Bay, Wisconsin. Vice President Harris is expected to speak next hour in Madison. Moments ago, we heard from our John King on the latest CNN poll out of Wisconsin, Vice President Harris has an edge, but by no means is the race decided. And it's up to you how much you actually trust these polls right now.

As you saw earlier, John is in Wisconsin. He's visiting five battleground states in five days as part of his "All Over the Map" series. It examines the election through the experiences of key voting blocks in those states. Here's what he saw in Wisconsin.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KING (voice-over): Some (inaudible) Pewaukee on the red side of a critical dividing line in battleground Wisconsin. Octane Coffee is a startup, your morning jolt here prepared by a robot. Adrian Deasy is the Founder and CEO.

ADRIAN DEASY, WISCONSIN VOTER: This is all of the robotics.

KING (voice-over): He grew up in a democratic household, voted twice for Barack Obama, moved to the Milwaukee suburbs a decade ago.

DEASY: Toppings, cold foams.

KING (voice-over): A self-described moderate, ready to vote a third time for Donald Trump. I just see that Donald Trump from a business-minded standpoint, from a let's make a deal standpoint, and from an economics and financing perspective, I think he's got the right mindset for how the country should be run, how to support small and medium-sized businesses.

KING: Are there downsides to him in your view?

DEASY: Does he have some character or personality things that go on? For sure, but I would say you have to separate the message from the messenger sometimes.

KING (voice-over): Trump won suburban Waukesha County in both 2016 and 2020, but his margin was smaller the second time, and Wisconsin flipped back to blue. Deasy believes Trump is stronger this time.

DEASY: I would say over the last say six to 12 months, definitely a large Trump bump, if you want to call it that.

KING (voice-over): Waukesha is a key test of whether Trump can reverse his suburban slide and across the county line in Milwaukee, a pivotal test for Kamala Harris too. This is the Tricklebee Cafe on Milwaukee's north side. Pay what you can is the motto here. We found a lot of apathy on our first visit to these predominantly black neighborhoods a year ago. Chef Zakiya Courtney says the switch to Harris ended that.

ZAKIYA COURTNEY, WISCONSIN VOTER: You got somebody that's younger, you have somebody that's agenda -- with an agenda. You got somebody that's relatable. You got somebody who understands the issues.

KING (voice-over): Courtney hears talk more black men are for Trump this time. She doesn't believe it's a big number.

COURTNEY: And I've heard what it is that people have said. I've heard people talk about the fact that she's been a prosecutor and she's put black men in jail and things like that. Well, you have to look at that closer. If you've done a crime, you deserve to go to jail. And there's nothing that shows that she has a track record of targeting black men and putting in jail.

KING (voice-over): This line for early voting is in Sherman Park, one of the north side neighborhoods where Harris needs high turnout and giant margins.

COURTNEY: What I'm seeing right now is an enthusiasm and excitement that's even bigger than when Obama won.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

[20:35:00]

COOPER: He joins us again. As you mentioned in your story, I mean, you've been visiting Wisconsin over the past year, you are talking to voters there. How -- have you seen an evolution?

KING (on camera): Enormous evolution. Let's start, Anderson, come back to the mini magic wall and let's start in Milwaukee. The first piece we aired, I can remember being in studio with you a year ago saying, wow, we were canvassing with Democrats in Milwaukee here. It's so critical for the Democrats to run it up big in Milwaukee. You see the Biden, Joe Biden -- the margin Joe Biden had. We were

going door to door Democratic canvases and older black women were saying they weren't sure they were going to vote this time. Biden was still the candidate then, they thought it didn't matter.

The apathy in the black community was amazing. That is gone. That is gone. We dropped by an early voting site today. You heard the voter in our piece. There's a lot of energy and enthusiasm. Can Donald Trump cut into it some? We'll see come Election Day. But that has changed the race. The Democratic race is now energized and fighting in. So that's question number one.

And then question number two, you saw us out in Waukesha County here in the suburbs. You heard our voter there, saying he thinks Trump will do better. I think that is the defining question. If Harris, she's in Dane County tonight, Madison, can run it up there, run it up in Milwaukee County where I am tonight, then it comes down to places like Waukeshaw. Yes, it's Trump red, right, nearly 60 percent. But what is Harris' margin out there?

Again, first presidential election post the Dobbs decision, the Harris campaign thinks its vote numbers in the suburbs are going to be at least as good as Biden's, if not a little better. That's the key test. If she can have a margin like this in Waukesha and do well in Milwaukee, then she's on her way.

COOPER: And how critical for both candidates is Wisconsin to the path to 270?

KING (on camera): So if you flip the map here and you bring it up right now, and again, you look, we're in the final days here, right? This is -- this is my 10th presidential campaign. This is extraordinary. Seven battleground states, no clear leader really in any of them when you average the polls, maybe Harris in our new poll, just outside the margin in Michigan and Wisconsin. But look how close this is, right? Let's come back here.

This is where we are. I'm sorry, I had them shaded blue from our last segment. Seven battleground states, those are the yellow states right there. Wisconsin, if Harris can win Wisconsin, these three have voted together since 2000. If all three of them vote together, she's the next president of the United States, unless she loses some solid blue state which is unlikely. That's how important it's to Harris.

Now, if you go back to 2016, remember Anderson, these were the states, the blue wall states, if they stayed together again and they went for Donald Trump, they would get him close, knocking on the door. He would still have to win somewhere else and he'd have to win somewhere big like North Carolina or Georgia or the two of those out there to do that.

So, the blue wall states, because they tend to vote together, we'll see, maybe there'll be a split this time. But because they voted together in all three since 2000, that's why the campaigns are putting so much money into them because of the math. Here you have the three of them together, including Pennsylvania, the biggest prize at 19. That's, again, none of the paths are easy, but that's the easiest path to 270, win Wisconsin, Michigan, and Pennsylvania, and if you're Trump, then pick up one more.

COOPER: And you're going to Michigan tomorrow. What are you looking for there?

KING (on camera): The same idea. So you can -- the Democratic, how can Democrats do with black voters in Detroit? Can Harris run strong in Macomb County which Trump is likely to win, but we talked about the polling earlier, non-college-white voters, how does she do there? So I'll come back on the other map, just to take quickly to give you a look here, Michigan, again, they all vote together.

So you come back to Michigan, come over here in 2020, right? Look at Macomb County. I want to bring you up Wayne County here, and you move up to Macomb County, this is where my first campaign. I love going back here because this is where Michael Dukakis rode the tank. So it's a great campaign memory the first time. There we go. It finally comes up there.

COOPER: Great.

KING (on camera): You see the --

(CROSSTALK)

COOPER: Great campaign memory for you, not so much for Dukakis.

KING: Not for Dukakis, but it was my introduction to America and how counties can surprise you. But Macomb County was -- Macomb County was blue back then. This is how the map has changed over those 10 campaigns. That was blue, union workers, blue collar workers voted for Democrats then. Trump has changed the Republican Party and changed the electoral map in some ways as that has trended over.

So I'm really interested, how can Kamala Harris do in Macomb County? Hillary Clinton didn't do as well as Joe Biden. She lost Michigan. If Harris can be somewhere around Biden's numbers, she can win Michigan. So each of these states, the math is -- the Harris coalition has really complicated the math. Trump is the constant. Harris is the variable in this race. To me, Trump is the constant. Three elections in a row with the same candidate leading the Republican ticket never happened in my lifetime. So we can judge him on his past two performances, which is why I love going to the battleground states and just testing it out.

COOPER: All right, we'll see you in Michigan tomorrow. John King, thanks so much. Wisconsin looms large in part because in 2016, Hillary Clinton became the first Democratic presidential nominee in 32 years to lose the state she never visited during her general election campaign. By comparison, CNN estimates Vice President Harris (inaudible) Wisconsin eight times, including tonight. She has actually held her first rally as a presidential candidate in Milwaukee back in July. Joining us now is 2016 Clinton campaign manager, Robby Mook. Robby, what do you make of how the Harris campaign is approaching Wisconsin?

ROBBY MOOK, FORMER CLINTON CAMPAIGN MANAGER: Well, I think they're working as hard as they possibly can to win it, which I think is the only way to approach it.

[20:40:00]

As you mentioned, in 2016, we barely lost. In 2020, Biden barely won. It's the state we've seen again and again where the polling has been the most off, and where Trump has overperformed the polls the most. So I think, I almost -- you were sort of mentioning this earlier, I disregard the polls there completely. I think the only way to run there is like you are 20 points behind and work as hard as you can. And that's exactly what we're seeing her do tonight and what we've seen the campaign do the entire time.

COOPER: So, I mean, this is interesting. You ran that campaign. You disregard -- you're saying (ph) disregard polls in Wisconsin. Do you -- do you -- is that kind of your rule for right now, at this stage of the race for all these battleground states, disregarding the numbers?

MOOK: Yeah, it is Anderson. It's -- I mean, John King was just saying how remarkable this race is. I don't think we've ever had a situation like this where every single battleground state is not just within the margin of error, but most of the averages I'm seeing either candidate is up or down by a point. So this -- this could go any which way. And as John was also demonstrating, one state moves into somebody's category from the others and the math gets really tight, really fast.

And so all these states matter a lot. Obviously, Pennsylvania is special, it has the most electoral votes of any of these. But you take Wisconsin out, you take Michigan out, you take any state out that Biden won in 2020, and the path gets easier and easier for Trump. So, that's why we just can't take any of these for granted. And I think we have to absolutely ignore the polls for this final week.

COOPER: What do you make of Speaker Mike Johnson pledging to get rid of Obamacare if Trump is elected again? I mean, Trump has said he's not going to do that. Johnson is now trying to say he didn't say what he said. I mean, do you -- do you think that is something that he would go after?

MOOK: Oh, absolutely. I mean, they tried. They were so dysfunctional in 2017. They couldn't even repeal it 'cause it because it is so -- it is so popular and it was so popular then. So my guess is they'll fail again. But they're absolutely determined to repeal Obamacare, to take away every woman in America's right to reproductive health. They want to -- they want to do everything they can to advance climate change, give away big tax breaks to the oil companies, give more tax breaks to the wealthiest people.

Just look at what they've done. That's what they're going to do. Absolutely. It's a stupid thing to bring up the week before the election. But Trump also did a really stupid thing at Madison Square Garden earlier this week. And people should listen to what they're saying because it is exactly what they're going to do when they get into office. Hopefully they won't, but if they do, it's what they'll do.

COOPER: Given your experience, what do you look for in these closing days? I mean, just from the outside now, what are you -- what are you watching for?

MOOK: Yeah, Anderson, it's a cliche to talk about. Well, now turnout's the most important thing, but because every state is so literally tied, turnout absolutely makes a difference. The little things become big. So the efforts by the campaigns in these last few days to turn people out, absolutely, could be the margin of error. And I would say to anybody, I assume most of the listeners here have made up their minds and many of them are probably active in campaigns, don't pay attention to the early vote statistics.

We have absolutely no benchmark to judge what's happening by 2020 with such a special cycle, many of the laws have changed. At this point, we just -- everything's a tie. Go work as hard as you can, because these little things are absolutely going to matter.

COOPER: Robby Mook, thanks so much. Appreciate it.

Coming up, our Donie O'Sullivan goes to the looking glass, spends a day absorbing news about this election from the MAGA Media universe.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:48:13]

COOPER: If you watch CNN or read mainstream news publications like "The New York Times", you know this is an incredibly close presidential race and that few people have a high level of confidence, not to mention, or they don't know who's going to win. But those getting their news from far-right media figures are getting a far different message about this election.

Our Donie O'Sullivan recently went down that rabbit hole.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DONIE O'SULLIVAN, CNN SENIOR CORRESPONDENT: Good morning. The reason you are here at my home at this godforsaken hour of the morning is because we are about to spend the day in the MAGA Media universe.

O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): Every day, millions of Americans get their news and information, not from newspapers or cable news.

DANIEL BONGINO, HOST OF "THE DAN BONGINO SHOW" ON RUMBLE: The momentum behind Donald Trump's campaign, ladies and gentlemen, it's almost tangible at this point.

O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): But from a new world of online MAGA Media outlets.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The secret ingredient to the COVID-19 injections has been found.

(LAUGH)

O'SULLIVAN: Today is going to be a long day.

O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): But you don't have to work too hard to get sucked into the MAGA Media universe.

O'SULLIVAN: I have a Samsung television. Long as it's -- you're connected to the internet, you got all these free channels. You have channels you'd recognize, but then you go down, "Real America's Voice." But "Real America's Voice" is anything but a normal news network.

STEVE BANNON, FORMER WHITE HOUSE CHIEF STRATEGIST: -- enemies, because we're going medieval on these people.

O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): It's the home of Steve Bannon's war room.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where do people like that go to share the big line, MAGA Media.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I know that guy.

DAVID BOSSIE, AMERICAN POLITICAL ACTIVIST: Good morning, Bossie. This is Dave Bossie, sitting in for Steve Bannon.

O'SULLIVAN: Big part of what's happening on MAGA Media is convincing their audience that there is absolutely no way that Trump can lose.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There's a 99 percent chance we are facing total crazy town.

[20:50:00]

O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): As the day went on --

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If anyone believes that Kamala Harris is ahead in the polls, you need to have your brain checked.

O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): It became clear that MAGA Media is telling their audience to expect the election to be stolen.

MIKE LINDELL, CHIEF EXECUTIVE OFFICER, MY PILLOW: Pennsylvania has done it three times in a row, three times in a row, three elections in a row. They had more votes than voters.

O'SULLIVAN: This is not true.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I just voted in the white settlement election. I voted for one president, checked it on the video screen. When I got the paper ballot, it had the other candidate's name on it.

O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): This video was quickly going viral with some saying it was proof of election fraud. O'SULLIVAN: This one has 7 million views. Voters in Tarrant County are reporting that the voting machines are flipping their votes from Trump to Harris.

O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): Election officials had responded to the video.

O'SULLIVAN: Now, Tarrant County has put out a press release, 51 retweets compared to millions of views for the video. The original ballot was spoiled and the voter re-marked a new ballot with his preferred choice reflected. Essentially what they're saying is, this guy made a mistake and that's the whole point of having the paper receipt. You can make sure, and he was able to cast his vote correctly.

LINDELL: But I want to tell you guys about our file sheets that just came in.

SEAN SPICER, FORMER WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: Before I do that, I want to tell you how I sleep every night.

O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): But MAGA Media isn't all doom and gloom. There's also a lot of stuff you can buy.

SPICER: But I've got my Beam Dream Powder. Now this --

O'SULLIVAN: It is kind of sad, you see Sean Spicer, once the White House Press Secretary --

RUDY GIULIANI, FORMER ASSOCIATE ATTORNEY GENERAL OF THE UNITED STATES: My own brand of organic specialty coffee, Rudy Coffee.

O'SULLIVAN: Rudy Giuliani, once America's mayor, selling sleeping pills and coffee.

O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): The MAGA Media universe is surreal, but also scary.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The country's probably going to be in a state of whipped-up chaos.

O'SULLIVAN: There are so many shows, so many influencers, so many people just posting all day long. Clearly, one thing that is being pushed really, really hard is that Trump is definitely going to win, and if he doesn't win, it is because of fraud. It is because the election was stolen.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: Donie O'Sullivan joins says now. I love that Sean Spicer is pitching sleeping aids with the tagline, 'People will ask, how do I sleep at night?' Yeah. How does that guy sleep at night?

;; (LAUGH)

O'SULLIVAN (on camera): Yeah. He's pitching the sleeping aids. Mike Lindell is pitching the pillows.

COOPER: Right.

O'SULLIVAN: And then you can wake up with Rudy Giuliani's coffee.

COOPER: Wake up with Rudy -- what better to wake up with than Rudy Giuliani in your home?

(LAUGH)

COOPER: How'd you like that every morning?

O'SULLIVAN: It's so -- it is so surreal. Of course, seeing those characters pushing that. And by the way, the way they pivot so quickly from America is doomed, the election is going to be sold to --

COOPER: Right.

O'SULLIVAN: By the way, buy this -- it just happens. What --

COOPER: All right. Rudy Giuliani may move in with you into your apartment.

(CROSSTALK)

O'SULLIVAN: Well, I think --

COOPER: -- shown into your apartment.

O'SULLIVAN: I'll send him your way first. I think you might have a bit more space. But there will be -- there will be good coffee. I mean, maybe good coffee.

COOPER: And this is, I mean, how wide reaching is this?

O'SULLIVAN: It's huge. I mean, and that it's really -- it's a hard thing to get your head around, which is, it's just endless. I mean, I have to watch this stuff for a living.

(LAUGH)

O'SULLIVAN: Every day, there's a new show.

(CROSSTALK)

COOPER: Bless you, Donie O'Sullivan.

O'SULLIVAN: There's a new show. There's a new account. There's just hundreds of these shows. Millions of Americans are seeing this BS every day.

COOPER: Yeah. Donie O'Sullivan, thanks so much.

(LAUGH)

O'SULLIVAN: Thanks. COOPER: Better you than me, man. Coming up next, every day -- good coffee -- everyday people changing our world, meet the top-five CNN Heroes of 2024.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:58:10]

COOPER: This is the 18th year that CNN is shining a light on everyday people who see a need in their community and are making a difference. In a moment, you'll see how you can help decide who will be the next 'CNN Hero of the Year' and get an additional $100,000 to continue their work. But first, here are the top-five CNN Heroes for this year.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: In Gothenburg, Sweden, Conductor Ron Davis Alvarez and his dream orchestra give hundreds of refugees, immigrants and native Swedes, a chance to learn an instrument, connect with others, and build better lives.

From Dallas, Stephen Knight was in addiction recovery when he fostered a friend's dog, so she could go to rehab. Today, his program provides free pet care and peace of mind to help dog owners succeed with their sobriety.

Idaho native Payton McGriff is helping girls in the African country of Togo stay in school. Her non-profit provides tuition -- tutoring, and an innovative uniform made by local women. It's designed to grow with the students.

From Phoenixville, Pennsylvania, immigration attorney Rachel Rutter is helping unaccompanied migrant children heal from trauma, start new lives in the U.S. Her non-profit provides free legal support and helps fill in gaps in housing, food, and education.

And a New York City MIT graduate, Yamilee Toussaint's unique program is using dance to empower and educate girls of color in science, technology, engineering, and math.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: These are five remarkable people who prove that one person really can make a difference. It's up to you at home to decide who's going to be the 'CNN Hero of the Year'. Go to cnnheroes.com and vote up to 10 times a day if you want. And on December 8th, watch "CNN Heroes", an all-star tribute and a celebration of all this year's honorees. That's also when the 'CNN Hero of the Year' will be named and they'll get awarded an additional $100,000 in addition to the $10,000 each of them has already received, to continue their work.

It's an incredible night. You won't want to miss.

The news continues right now. "THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS" starts now. I'll see you, tomorrow.

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN CHIEF DOMESTIC CORRESPONDENT: Now, it's at a two- to-one margin. We also know the Harris campaign has a ground game behemoth in the state, more than double the offices of the Trump team very, very real effort underway, more than a million doors expected to be knocked on just in the coming days.

The reality is, you really don't know until we have a winner, that will tell you whether it worked or not -- Erin.

ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: Sure, will, especially if it works in the face of having half as many people on the ground, I mean this is amazing to see. All right, Phil, thank you and thanks as always to all of you. Anderson starts now.

[20:00:36]

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: Tonight on 360 with both candidates barnstorming through the battleground states, there's late new polling on the state of play and we'll take a look at the latest numbers.

Also tonight, just days before the election, new video obtained by CNN of House Speaker Mike Johnson saying if Trump wins, he'll work to eliminate Obamacare, the Affordable Care Act, which millions of voters rely on.

And later, where some Trump supporters getting their information. Donie O'Sullivan, they watched a pro-Trump TV to see what some voters are seeing from deep inside the bunker.

Good evening, thanks for joining us.

With just six campaigning days left, the candidates are now matching each other state per state across the electoral map. The former president is talking right now in Green Bay, Wisconsin, those are live pictures. The vice president meantime, also in Wisconsin for an appearance shortly in Madison, both she and her opponent were in North Carolina earlier today.

We will go live in a moment to Madison where CNN's Jeff Zeleny has been talking to his campaign sources about among other things, new CNN polling from Wisconsin. Take a look, it shows the vice president with a six-point lead there, a five-point lead in Michigan, both are outside the margin of error.

In Pennsylvania, though it is all even at 48. CNN's John King starts us off with more.

So John, I mean, looking at these numbers, what stands out to you?

JOHN KING, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Largely positive for the vice president, they show competitive races in all three of these blue wall states, Anderson. I'll just show you, I'll bring up my friend the mini magic wall is with me here. Remember these are the blue wall states, Pennsylvania, Michigan, Wisconsin, our new polling shows the vice president you noted leads in Michigan and in Wisconsin, a tie in Pennsylvania, why do these states matter?

Well, Joe Biden flipped them back to blue in 2020, he's president. In 2016, if you go back in election, you know, Hillary Clinton lost all three of those states. That was Donald Trump's big surprise and he was president, so the blue wall states have mattered, have been decisive in the last two presidential elections.

One other way to look at it as this way, if you look at the vice president's path to 270 electoral votes, if she can hold those leads, this is where we all right now to 226 to 219. If she can hold those leads in Wisconsin and in Michigan, well look how close she is, right? Her path, bam, if she can just get Pennsylvania that gets her there right there.

So no path is easy, but that is her easiest path to 270 Pennsylvania, Michigan, Wisconsin. These polls show us she is less than a week to go so in play to possibly do that.

COOPER: Do we know when -- I mean, when were these polls taken? Was this before the Trump rally with the slurs against various groups?

KING: Right, that's an important thing to note. The polls are several -- they're taken several days ago and then you take a few days to process them. So events can change things. That's one of the things you're watching. It's also why we will say a hundred times, don't ever invest in just one poll. If your average, as our great polling team does the recent battleground state polls, it would show Michigan and Wisconsin a little bit closer than our polling.

So, you have the question, did we catch a break her way or is it just our polls, we've got a little bigger lead and another one has a different and you average them out? But if you look in the weeds of these polls there are some concerns for the vice president among Black voters in Pennsylvania and Michigan. There's some good numbers for the vice president when you look at the suburbs. So again, don't invest in only one poll, with a few days left this does show her easiest path. Go ahead.

COOPER: Yes, and just let's just drill down on those numbers because among likely Black voters in Michigan, Harris gets 83 percent in Pennsylvania, 76 percent. That's running behind Biden in 2020.

KING: It is running and its running significantly behind Biden in 2020. Now, the Harris campaign says it doesn't believe that's what's going to happen on election day. And in our travels, we see a lot of emphasis on early voting in the Black community, including here in Milwaukee today. But I'm showing you Philadelphia right now, not just for the percentage.

If you want to win Pennsylvania as a Democrat, you need to do that. But not just the 80 percent, look at the math. You need the high turnout, right? I blocked it out a little bit by scribbling too hard. But you see look at the big number there and there. Joe Biden wins the state by 80,000 votes. Look at that giant margin in Philadelphia.

It is that margin in Philadelphia, which is largely the Black community that helps you offset all of that Trump red in the rural areas.

So, that is a bit of a warning sign in Pennsylvania and then if you come over again to Michigan where we will be tomorrow, the Detroit area, Wayne County is obviously where the Black turnout is huge. And again, look not just at the percentage Biden got, but the math, the size of the margin helps you win the state.

Again, the Harris campaign thinks it won't be as bad as these numbers would say. But she's running stronger in the suburbs. She's running well among White non-college workers. That's something they need to keep an eye on without a doubt. And it's a place where the Trump campaign vows and promises, it will surprise us come election day.

COOPER: Yes, to that point, Harris is running ahead of both Biden and Clinton with White non-college educated voters in Wisconsin, pulling in 43 percent. How crucial is that in Wisconsin?

KING: Well, you just mentioned where the former vice president is today -- the former president, excuse me. So Brown County is where Green Bay, Wisconsin is, right? You see that on the map right here. You see his win over Joe Biden in 2020, right? You see 65,000 votes, 75,000 votes, or roughly 10,000 vote margin there, right?

[20:05:18]

Donald Trump won the county. Why am I focusing on that margin? Joe Biden loses again, this state was decided by 20,000 votes both times 2016 and 2020. Joe Biden lost that county by 10,000 votes, right? Go back in time again. Let me move this up a little bit, sorry, I have to move to get to 2016, now, I'll come back. Let me come back over for you here.

Now, you come back to Wisconsin and you go to Brown County again in 2016, what's the difference? Look at the bigger margin, Hillary Clinton loses it by almost 14,000 votes. So the math matters, even in places you are losing, the margins matter.

So, if vice president Harris is running close to Biden's numbers with White non-college educated voters, that makes a difference in Brown County, Wisconsin; it makes it different in Luzerne County, Pennsylvania, the margins within the margins if you will, the small battlegrounds within the battlegrounds states. If she can hold that number plus her suburban number just to work on the Black voter number.

But again, if you look in the weeds of these polls, if our poll is correct heading into the final days of the campaign, it does show, again, it's not easy, but the vice president's easiest path to victory, Anderson, is within striking distance.

COOPER: And let me just ask you, I mean, do you buy polls? I mean, I do buy these numbers. I know, I know. I mean, there's a lot of great people working on this and work very hard on it. And I think there's just a lot of distrust of polls. Do you buy them?

KING: I don't invest in them. I use them for trajectory, right? So these, these polls, which way is the arrow bending and I study much more, where's the Black vote? Where's the suburban vote? Where is the college-educated vote? What do the subgroups tell me?

And then you come out and you travel in these states and you talk to people and you show up at the early voting sites and you see what happened.

I will say this, this is one of the giant questions, in both 2016 and 2020, I just said, these polls are relatively good news for the vice president of the United States. Well, I want to add this caveat. In both 2016 and 2020, we know that in the battleground states, Donald Trump over performed his polling numbers, in almost every poll. And so, the polls in the end showed Donald Trump at a point in the battleground states, he ran better than that.

Now, the pollsters will tell you they've worked really hard to adjust to try to get the Trump vote right? Do they have it right this time or will he overperform again? In the 2018 midterms, the Democrats overperformed what the poll said, in 2022, midterms, excuse and we know what happened then, the Democrats had a much better year than people anticipated.

So, I don't buy them in the sense that I think they're exactly right. You look at them for trajectory, which ways are going, you study beneath them. So, they are a tool, they're not everything -- Anderson.

All right. John, we're going to talk to you later on for a drill down in what you've seen in Wisconsin today.

From Milwaukee now to Madison in the Harris event, CNN's Jeff Zeleny is there for us.

Jeff, what can we expect to hear from Vice President Harris tonight? JEFF ZELENY, CNN SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: We expect the Vice President Harris to really take that closing argument on the road. We saw her deliver last night at Washington; she's been doing it, in North Carolina, Pennsylvania, and expected to do so here in Wisconsin, talking about seeking common ground, talking about trying to find common sense solutions.

But it's a very fine line to walk because at the very same time, she is also trying to draw a sharp contrast with Donald Trump. What she is trying to do is avoid talking about any of the controversy you've seen on cable news or the former president talking about those garbage comments.

This is something that is not necessarily on the minds of voters, so I'm told that vice president Harris is going to continue to press the case, how she would be a president for all people, not simply those who vote for her. But, this is get out to vote time perhaps you can hear the rally behind me. This is a concert.

Gracie Abrams, just performing now, there'll be other performers. This is a rally for the people who have voted. The campaign that was more focused on those who have not.

COOPER: All right. Jeff Zeleny, thanks very much. I want to get perspective now from CNN political commentators Ashley Allison, Scott Jennings, also, Gretchen Carlson, journalism co-founder of Lift Our Voices.

Ashley, I mean, I don't know what you think about these polls. Interesting that I mean, she seems to be this slightly uptake in these latest polls, whether that's real or not, how do you see the race right now?

ASHLEY ALLISON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I don't I'm not a big believer in polls, even though when they say things that I like. Meaning that the person that I think should win, Kamala Harris is up.

I haven't been in Michigan or Wisconsin in this cycle, but I was in Pennsylvania and I was in North Carolina. And I think the narrative a little bit, if you're on the internet and Twitter, is that it's all Trump country out there, like in the Black community it is very Donald Trump heavy and we are just not seeing that. The door knockers that are going on canvases.

COOPER: You were canvassing in Philadelphia?

ALLISON: Yes, and what we're seeing is there are actually more undecided voters than I would like to believe that they really are and the decision is, am I actually going to go vote?

But there are some voters, predominantly more White voters, who are saying, do I want to vote for Kamala Harris? They are not thinking about voting for Donald Trump, but they're thinking about maybe sitting it out.

[20:10:19] And I think that that is what you might be picking up in these polls, even though I don't think it is telling.

I think she is has a fantastic ground game right now that is trying to convert. And I just got a report out of Arizona that they saw no operation for Donald Trump on the doors and converting voters. So, this really is a turnout game.

And the final thing I'll just say is because of the condensed timeline of her candidacy, I think these last five to six days actually do matter. I think the rally in Madison Square Garden does have an impact on people who were going to vote in-person.

I think her performance on the Eclipse, it does get people excited these new -- there are so many new ads just dropping like at this point, most ads or just packaged and repackaged. But new content is dropping and I think that is actually touching though some of those undecided voters.

GRETCHEN CARLSON, JOURNALIST: I think it's, you know, what is going to make people feel compelled to go and vote on Tuesday or to go and vote early tomorrow.

And so, I would agree with Ashley on that sense of a feeling. And so, did they feel that watching her at the Ellipse? Did they feel that hearing Biden with the gaffe for Trump?

I mean, we'll never know, but the one thing in the CNN polls that I thought was incredibly interesting to your point, Ashley, was how many people are still undecided? You have six percent in Michigan, six percent in Pennsylvania, five percent in Wisconsin. That is much higher than I envisioned at this point in time.

We're in the weeds in this every single day, and so we hear from people who are -- who have decided a long time ago who they're voting for. But the idea that people are still making up their minds to my original point of feeling, what is it going to be that's going to tip them over the edge and none of us know the answer to that.

COOPER: Scott, do you believe these polls?

SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I think it's close. I mean, I've wondered if all media outlets are just not taking any polls for the last six months, what will we do with all them? We have an amazing Christmas party, you know, I mean, it's a tight race. It's tight nationally. It's tight in these swing states.

I think some of these people who are undecided tell pollsters that because they want to have seem like they're discerning, but they have a gut feeling about how they feel about certainly Donald Trump. They may not have as much of a gut about Kamala Harris because she's come into the race lesser known.

I agree with Ashley, I think some people are deciding whether to vote at all. I think for Trump, it's this low propensity play, low- propensity men, people who have little engagement with the news, little engagement with their civic affairs in this country. Maybe they never vote, maybe they only voted once or twice in their lives. Getting them out is obviously vital.

And for Harris, she has her own cohort of voters that are in the same boat, like people who need to be given a vibe about, yes, this is going to manifestly impact my life if I don't get out and do this.

So, I think ultimately at the end of the race, I agree with Gretchen. There is something about these events and the news cycles that give you a certain kind of energy or a vibe about a campaign. I'll just say Republicans feel confident. Some people are taking it as an article of faith that he will over perform because he did in the last two elections, I would just caution everyone to say, you don't know that. He might, but you don't really know that. You cannot take that to the bank.

And so, if you're expecting that on election night, just know it's not something you can necessarily bank.

ALLISON: Can I -- I have a theory on why there are so many undecided voters? I think that for so long, people did not want Donald Trump and Joe Biden rematch that when the ticket flipped, people just said, oh thank God I don't have to do that again, and they just stopped paying attention.

And so, now in this very short stretch, it kind of worked to Kamala Harris' favor because it gave her some time to get her footing, but I actually think that's why so many people are still having this question mark. Because think about it, most -- like most of the time at this point, you would have been hearing from this person for a year.

CARLSON: One other quick thing I want to say that's not a poll, but actual hard numbers and that is in the battleground states, there's a ten-point gender gap right now.

ALLISON: Yes.

CARLSON: With women and men, meaning there's more women by far coming out to vote early in the battleground states than men. That's a hard and fast number. We don't know how they're voting, but I think that's significant.

COOPER: The former president does seem to be laying the groundwork to contest the results. Certainly in Pennsylvania, he posted on social media saying Pennsylvania is cheating and getting caught at large scale levels rarely seen before. I mean, his rarely seen before is like a verbal tic for him. He said report cheating to authorities, law enforcement must act now. What is he referring to?

JENNINGS: There is a story in Lancaster County in Pennsylvania about fraudulent voter registrations that there is an active and ongoing investigation into some kind of fraudulent voter registration activity. So, some people have picked up on this.

I would just say for my part, I have all the confidence in the world we're going to have a free, fair, honest election in this country.

I strongly believe in the diffuse nature of our elections. Local volunteers, local clerks, secretaries of state, no one central controlling authority. I think it's what makes American elections unique and very, very secure. So I have a lot of confidence in the American election system.

[20:15:14]

COOPER: All right, let's move on. Much more ahead tonight, coming up, Obamacare, millions count on it for healthcare. The former president said in his only debate, he has concepts of plan to replace it, tonight, though video of House Speaker Mike Johnson promising to try to do just that in a second Trump term.

Also, John King comes back, with his stops this week All Over The Map. This time talking with voters in Wisconsin.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:20:03]

COOPER: Tonight House Speaker Mike Johnson appears to be doing cleanup after being caught on camera, promising to do precisely what Donald Trump recently promised not to do, namely end the Affordable Care Act. Health policy or Obamacare, you remember was a major driver of voters to the polls in 2018, 2020, and 2022, the Affordable Care Act, unpopular when it began now no longer is.

Back in April in a video on social media, the former president said he's "not running to terminate the ACA," instead, he promised to, "make it much better, much stronger" even though he tried to eliminate it for many, many years, in his entire administration.

Today, though CNN obtained video taken on Monday at a Trump volunteer office in Bethlehem, Pennsylvania of House Speaker Johnson saying this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA): Healthcare reform is going to be a big part of the agenda. When I say were going to have a very aggressive first hundred days agenda, We've got a lot of things on the table.

REPORTER: No Obamacare?

JOHNSON: No more Obamacare.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: "No more Obamacare" he said.

Last month, the Treasury Department reported that nearly 50 million Americans have been covered by it over the last ten years. Well, tonight Speaker Johnson said in a statement, "Despite the dishonest characterization from the Harris campaign, the audio and transcript, make clear that I offered no such promise to end up Obamacare, and in fact, acknowledged that the policy is 'deeply ingrained' in our health care system."

The Trump campaign offered a shorter version saying, "repealing Obamacare is not President Trump's policy position."

Back now with the panel, does it make sense with less than a week to go that he would be saying these things?

All right, let me get clearly, he was just going along with what somebody shouted out.

ALLISON: No, I don't think he's just going along with it.

COOPER: Well, I'm not saying, he has to believe it but -- but --

ALLISON: No, I think he probably -- I don't know why in this day and age you wouldn't think there's always a camera on you with cell phones and whatnot, but I think he does want to repeal Obamacare, I think we saw 60 - 61 times. They tried to repeal Obamacare. I just -- a couple of points here.

One, this is why people question the consistency of Donald Trump and the inconsistency of Donald Trump when he says, oh, I wouldn't sign a national abortion ban is because the people that you said at a rally that at some big old plan to Mike Johnson about what you have in store when you win the election.

So, what does that plan? Is it no more Obamacare like Speaker Johnson said? It's why when people connect Donald Trump to Project 2025 and they say, oh, his hands aren't on it, is because they do want to get rid of health care in Project 2025.

COOPER: We should also point out that Donald Trump ran in 2016 on eliminating Obamacare. I remember in endless interviews. He was like day one, he will eliminate it and within the hour, my plan is going to be in place and it's going to be better and you know --

ALLISON: And Obamacare is great. Obamacare -- people love Obamacare. It's not perfect, it's not perfect. But many, many more Americans have Obamacare and that is why John McCain did the infamous, no, I'm not voting for it because he knew also knew his constituents liked Obamacare.

JENNINGS: The ship has clearly sailed on repealing it. And Johnson made that clear. It's ingrained in our system. But what must be done and I think what the Republicans are going to focus on is prices. I mean, people feel like they're paying more and more and more for insurance and getting less and less coverage.

So, that is what they want to deal with. I think they're extremely concerned about transparency. Nobody knows exactly what's in these medical bills you get. Also, I talked to a senior member of the House Republican conference tonight who was directly involved in policymaking on health care. He said, right out of the gate, we will not do anything to jeopardize pre-existing conditions. So when I hear that, what I hear is Republicans understand the political contours in which they're operating. And they're going to act accordingly, but they will not ignore the fact that prices have gone up and coverage has gotten the worst for millions upon millions of Americans.

COOPER: But why, if they were running on this in 2016 and I mean, this was widely talked about, this was target number one.

JENNINGS: Well, why did I give up trying to dunk a basketball in my driveway because if you try so many times and fall on your face, you move on that you'll either lower the goal or you start shooting the three pointer.

CARLSON: It was only because of John McCain that there was not an overhaul about this several years ago. What I see in this whole thing is Donald Trump called the Speaker of the House and said, what are you talking about? Because this was not supposed to come up in the last couple of days, something that would be opposed by millions of Americans.

COOPER: It seems to me it has not gotten more attention, frankly, I mean, it's a pretty -- it seems to me a pretty huge thing that he sort of let this, I mean, he just said out loud, yes, no more Obamacare.

CARLSON: But again, there are no plans and Donald Trump in the debate, he didn't have any plans in the debates out there either.

COOPER: Didn't he say that were concepts?

ALLISON: Concepts --

COOPER: He said he had concepts of a plan.

JENNINGS: Well, there are things that the Republicans have been looking into in the House streamlining middlemen and the system PBM reform, for example. Again, this transparency thing is a big deal to Republicans, but the overall goal, and I would think both parties would agree on this is how can the price keep going up, but people continue to feel like they're getting less and less coverage. That's not true if you already are on Medicaid or something, you're getting it for free.

But for people who pay premiums, who continuously feel like their coverage is getting worse, something should be done and the next party, whoever is in the majority is going to be a slim majority should do something about it.

[20:25:16]

ALLISON: Yes, but I just want to draw the contrast is that in the Biden administration, they capped the price of insulin, they negotiated prescription drug cost. Kamala Harris has rolled out where her plans would be. It's just again, the contrast is that, he said what he said, no more Obamacare. Like I don't like to put in people's mouth so like, I can only -- COOPER: It's also interesting because the knock on her has been from Republicans is that she has no plans.

ALLISON: That's right.

COOPER: Whereas she has rolled up plans on this and --

JENNINGS: What's the plan, a status quo? I mean --

ALLISON: Well, she talked about expanding coverage towards caregivers because right now most of them don't have coverage, she talked about not just doing negotiating prescription drug prices under Medicare, but expanding on all prescription drug prices.

JENNINGS: The issue is premiums, premiums are going up. People feel like they're getting less coverage, to me, if I were just -- if I were a health-care focused voter and I were looking at my premiums going up all the time and feeling like it doesn't even feel like I have insurance at all. I'd be looking for one of these two parties --

COOPER: Is Donald Trump talking about that?

ALLISON: No.

CARLSON: No, it's not a high priority.

COOPER: Scott, this is new, I'm like, this --

ALLISON: Like, you're doing great, you're doing great but --

JENNINGS: Mike Johnson, look, I will tell you this and House races across the country. I am certain that --

COOPER: You're saying Mike Johnson wants to do that but Mike Johnson said no more Obamacare.

JENNINGS: No, I think what he was -- my understanding what he was saying is no more -- we're not going to be repealing Obamacare because it's too ingrained, we have to do massive reforms because we're not happy with the process.

COOPER: So he meant no more attempts to repeal Obamacare does not, no more Obamacare like he actually said?

ALLISON: -- has been busy, you spending so much.

JENNINGS: Look, the House of Representative is going to be a narrow majority one way or the other, how much controversial stuff either party is going to be able to crank through?

COOPER: You're right, there's not even a controversy.

CARLSON: I think the most important thing that Scott said tonight from his source on "The Hill" is that they're not going to change pre- existing conditions. Let's just boil it down to what's the most popular thing about Obamacare, is that people got coverage and for a longer period time with their children.

ALLISON: Yes.

CARLSON: That is what they are most concerned about and yes, drug prices and care for the elderly and all of that falls way below that.

JENNINGS: Yes, the inflation crisis in this country that we've had for the last four years had healthcare almost worse than anything, people know it, people feel it, whoever is in the majority and whoever is in the White House, if they don't tackle this, it's a political malpractice.

ALLISON: I agree with you, I just don't -- I just really don't think healthcare is a winning issue that Republicans should be bringing up the week before the election, especially when you say no more Obamacare, that ad writes itself.

COOPER: I wish Ashley, I was actually, I was thinking you'd encourage them to be bringing it up the week before --

ALLISON: I give for your advice, you know.

COOPER: Okay, Ashley Allison, Scott Jennings, thank you, Gretchen Carlson as well.

Coming up, John King returns with more on what voters in Wisconsin are saying about the race as part of his "All Over The Map" series, that's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:32:00]

COOPER: As we mentioned at the top of the program, the former president is speaking now in Green Bay, Wisconsin. Vice President Harris is expected to speak next hour in Madison. Moments ago, we heard from our John King on the latest CNN poll out of Wisconsin, Vice President Harris has an edge, but by no means is the race decided. And it's up to you how much you actually trust these polls right now.

As you saw earlier, John is in Wisconsin. He's visiting five battleground states in five days as part of his "All Over the Map" series. It examines the election through the experiences of key voting blocks in those states. Here's what he saw in Wisconsin.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KING (voice-over): Some (inaudible) Pewaukee on the red side of a critical dividing line in battleground Wisconsin. Octane Coffee is a startup, your morning jolt here prepared by a robot. Adrian Deasy is the Founder and CEO.

ADRIAN DEASY, WISCONSIN VOTER: This is all of the robotics.

KING (voice-over): He grew up in a democratic household, voted twice for Barack Obama, moved to the Milwaukee suburbs a decade ago.

DEASY: Toppings, cold foams.

KING (voice-over): A self-described moderate, ready to vote a third time for Donald Trump. I just see that Donald Trump from a business-minded standpoint, from a let's make a deal standpoint, and from an economics and financing perspective, I think he's got the right mindset for how the country should be run, how to support small and medium-sized businesses.

KING: Are there downsides to him in your view?

DEASY: Does he have some character or personality things that go on? For sure, but I would say you have to separate the message from the messenger sometimes.

KING (voice-over): Trump won suburban Waukesha County in both 2016 and 2020, but his margin was smaller the second time, and Wisconsin flipped back to blue. Deasy believes Trump is stronger this time.

DEASY: I would say over the last say six to 12 months, definitely a large Trump bump, if you want to call it that.

KING (voice-over): Waukesha is a key test of whether Trump can reverse his suburban slide and across the county line in Milwaukee, a pivotal test for Kamala Harris too. This is the Tricklebee Cafe on Milwaukee's north side. Pay what you can is the motto here. We found a lot of apathy on our first visit to these predominantly black neighborhoods a year ago. Chef Zakiya Courtney says the switch to Harris ended that.

ZAKIYA COURTNEY, WISCONSIN VOTER: You got somebody that's younger, you have somebody that's agenda -- with an agenda. You got somebody that's relatable. You got somebody who understands the issues.

KING (voice-over): Courtney hears talk more black men are for Trump this time. She doesn't believe it's a big number.

COURTNEY: And I've heard what it is that people have said. I've heard people talk about the fact that she's been a prosecutor and she's put black men in jail and things like that. Well, you have to look at that closer. If you've done a crime, you deserve to go to jail. And there's nothing that shows that she has a track record of targeting black men and putting in jail.

KING (voice-over): This line for early voting is in Sherman Park, one of the north side neighborhoods where Harris needs high turnout and giant margins.

COURTNEY: What I'm seeing right now is an enthusiasm and excitement that's even bigger than when Obama won.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

[20:35:00]

COOPER: He joins us again. As you mentioned in your story, I mean, you've been visiting Wisconsin over the past year, you are talking to voters there. How -- have you seen an evolution?

KING (on camera): Enormous evolution. Let's start, Anderson, come back to the mini magic wall and let's start in Milwaukee. The first piece we aired, I can remember being in studio with you a year ago saying, wow, we were canvassing with Democrats in Milwaukee here. It's so critical for the Democrats to run it up big in Milwaukee.

You see the Biden, Joe Biden -- the margin Joe Biden had. We were going door to door Democratic canvases and older black women were saying they weren't sure they were going to vote this time. Biden was still the candidate then, they thought it didn't matter.

The apathy in the black community was amazing. That is gone. That is gone. We dropped by an early voting site today. You heard the voter in our piece. There's a lot of energy and enthusiasm. Can Donald Trump cut into it some? We'll see come Election Day. But that has changed the race. The Democratic race is now energized and fighting in. So that's question number one.

And then question number two, you saw us out in Waukesha County here in the suburbs. You heard our voter there, saying he thinks Trump will do better. I think that is the defining question. If Harris, she's in Dane County tonight, Madison, can run it up there, run it up in Milwaukee County where I am tonight, then it comes down to places like Waukeshaw. Yes, it's Trump red, right, nearly 60 percent. But what is Harris' margin out there?

Again, first presidential election post the Dobbs decision, the Harris campaign thinks its vote numbers in the suburbs are going to be at least as good as Biden's, if not a little better. That's the key test. If she can have a margin like this in Waukesha and do well in Milwaukee, then she's on her way.

COOPER: And how critical for both candidates is Wisconsin to the path to 270?

KING (on camera): So if you flip the map here and you bring it up right now, and again, you look, we're in the final days here, right? This is -- this is my 10th presidential campaign. This is extraordinary. Seven battleground states, no clear leader really in any of them when you average the polls, maybe Harris in our new poll, just outside the margin in Michigan and Wisconsin. But look how close this is, right? Let's come back here.

This is where we are. I'm sorry, I had them shaded blue from our last segment. Seven battleground states, those are the yellow states right there. Wisconsin, if Harris can win Wisconsin, these three have voted together since 2000. If all three of them vote together, she's the next president of the United States, unless she loses some solid blue state which is unlikely. That's how important it's to Harris.

Now, if you go back to 2016, remember Anderson, these were the states, the blue wall states, if they stayed together again and they went for Donald Trump, they would get him close, knocking on the door. He would still have to win somewhere else and he'd have to win somewhere big like North Carolina or Georgia or the two of those out there to do that.

So, the blue wall states, because they tend to vote together, we'll see, maybe there'll be a split this time. But because they voted together in all three since 2000, that's why the campaigns are putting so much money into them because of the math.

Here you have the three of them together, including Pennsylvania, the biggest prize at 19. That's, again, none of the paths are easy, but that's the easiest path to 270, win Wisconsin, Michigan, and Pennsylvania, and if you're Trump, then pick up one more.

COOPER: And you're going to Michigan tomorrow. What are you looking for there?

KING (on camera): The same idea. So you can -- the Democratic, how can Democrats do with black voters in Detroit? Can Harris run strong in Macomb County which Trump is likely to win, but we talked about the polling earlier, non-college-white voters, how does she do there? So I'll come back on the other map, just to take quickly to give you a look here, Michigan, again, they all vote together.

So you come back to Michigan, come over here in 2020, right? Look at Macomb County. I want to bring you up Wayne County here, and you move up to Macomb County, this is where my first campaign. I love going back here because this is where Michael Dukakis rode the tank. So it's a great campaign memory the first time. There we go. It finally comes up there.

COOPER: Great.

KING (on camera): You see the --

(CROSSTALK)

COOPER: Great campaign memory for you, not so much for Dukakis.

KING: Not for Dukakis, but it was my introduction to America and how counties can surprise you. But Macomb County was -- Macomb County was blue back then. This is how the map has changed over those 10 campaigns. That was blue, union workers, blue collar workers voted for Democrats then. Trump has changed the Republican Party and changed the electoral map in some ways as that has trended over.

So I'm really interested, how can Kamala Harris do in Macomb County? Hillary Clinton didn't do as well as Joe Biden. She lost Michigan. If Harris can be somewhere around Biden's numbers, she can win Michigan. So each of these states, the math is -- the Harris coalition has really complicated the math. Trump is the constant. Harris is the variable in this race. To me, Trump is the constant. Three elections in a row with the same candidate leading the Republican ticket never happened in my lifetime. So we can judge him on his past two performances, which is why I love going to the battleground states and just testing it out.

COOPER: All right, we'll see you in Michigan tomorrow. John King, thanks so much. Wisconsin looms large in part because in 2016, Hillary Clinton became the first Democratic presidential nominee in 32 years to lose the state she never visited during her general election campaign. By comparison, CNN estimates Vice President Harris (inaudible) Wisconsin eight times, including tonight. She has actually held her first rally as a presidential candidate in Milwaukee back in July.

Joining us now is 2016 Clinton campaign manager, Robby Mook. Robby, what do you make of how the Harris campaign is approaching Wisconsin?

ROBBY MOOK, FORMER CLINTON CAMPAIGN MANAGER: Well, I think they're working as hard as they possibly can to win it, which I think is the only way to approach it.

[20:40:00]

As you mentioned, in 2016, we barely lost. In 2020, Biden barely won. It's the state we've seen again and again where the polling has been the most off, and where Trump has overperformed the polls the most. So I think, I almost -- you were sort of mentioning this earlier, I disregard the polls there completely. I think the only way to run there is like you are 20 points behind and work as hard as you can. And that's exactly what we're seeing her do tonight and what we've seen the campaign do the entire time.

COOPER: So, I mean, this is interesting. You ran that campaign. You disregard -- you're saying (ph) disregard polls in Wisconsin. Do you -- do you -- is that kind of your rule for right now, at this stage of the race for all these battleground states, disregarding the numbers?

MOOK: Yeah, it is Anderson. It's -- I mean, John King was just saying how remarkable this race is. I don't think we've ever had a situation like this where every single battleground state is not just within the margin of error, but most of the averages I'm seeing either candidate is up or down by a point. So this -- this could go any which way. And as John was also demonstrating, one state moves into somebody's category from the others and the math gets really tight, really fast.

And so all these states matter a lot. Obviously, Pennsylvania is special, it has the most electoral votes of any of these. But you take Wisconsin out, you take Michigan out, you take any state out that Biden won in 2020, and the path gets easier and easier for Trump. So, that's why we just can't take any of these for granted. And I think we have to absolutely ignore the polls for this final week.

COOPER: What do you make of Speaker Mike Johnson pledging to get rid of Obamacare if Trump is elected again? I mean, Trump has said he's not going to do that. Johnson is now trying to say he didn't say what he said. I mean, do you -- do you think that is something that he would go after?

MOOK: Oh, absolutely. I mean, they tried. They were so dysfunctional in 2017. They couldn't even repeal it 'cause it because it is so -- it is so popular and it was so popular then. So my guess is they'll fail again. But they're absolutely determined to repeal Obamacare, to take away every woman in America's right to reproductive health. They want to -- they want to do everything they can to advance climate change, give away big tax breaks to the oil companies, give more tax breaks to the wealthiest people.

Just look at what they've done. That's what they're going to do. Absolutely. It's a stupid thing to bring up the week before the election. But Trump also did a really stupid thing at Madison Square Garden earlier this week. And people should listen to what they're saying because it is exactly what they're going to do when they get into office. Hopefully they won't, but if they do, it's what they'll do.

COOPER: Given your experience, what do you look for in these closing days? I mean, just from the outside now, what are you -- what are you watching for?

MOOK: Yeah, Anderson, it's a cliche to talk about. Well, now turnout's the most important thing, but because every state is so literally tied, turnout absolutely makes a difference. The little things become big. So the efforts by the campaigns in these last few days to turn people out, absolutely, could be the margin of error. And I would say to anybody, I assume most of the listeners here have made up their minds and many of them are probably active in campaigns, don't pay attention to the early vote statistics.

We have absolutely no benchmark to judge what's happening by 2020 with such a special cycle, many of the laws have changed. At this point, we just -- everything's a tie. Go work as hard as you can, because these little things are absolutely going to matter.

COOPER: Robby Mook, thanks so much. Appreciate it.

Coming up, our Donie O'Sullivan goes to the looking glass, spends a day absorbing news about this election from the MAGA Media universe.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:48:13]

COOPER: If you watch CNN or read mainstream news publications like "The New York Times", you know this is an incredibly close presidential race and that few people have a high level of confidence, not to mention, or they don't know who's going to win. But those getting their news from far-right media figures are getting a far different message about this election.

Our Donie O'Sullivan recently went down that rabbit hole.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DONIE O'SULLIVAN, CNN SENIOR CORRESPONDENT: Good morning. The reason you are here at my home at this godforsaken hour of the morning is because we are about to spend the day in the MAGA Media universe.

O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): Every day, millions of Americans get their news and information, not from newspapers or cable news.

DANIEL BONGINO, HOST OF "THE DAN BONGINO SHOW" ON RUMBLE: The momentum behind Donald Trump's campaign, ladies and gentlemen, it's almost tangible at this point.

O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): But from a new world of online MAGA Media outlets.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The secret ingredient to the COVID-19 injections has been found.

(LAUGH)

O'SULLIVAN: Today is going to be a long day.

O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): But you don't have to work too hard to get sucked into the MAGA Media universe.

O'SULLIVAN: I have a Samsung television. Long as it's -- you're connected to the internet, you got all these free channels. You have channels you'd recognize, but then you go down, "Real America's Voice." But "Real America's Voice" is anything but a normal news network.

STEVE BANNON, FORMER WHITE HOUSE CHIEF STRATEGIST: -- enemies, because we're going medieval on these people.

O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): It's the home of Steve Bannon's war room.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where do people like that go to share the big line, MAGA Media.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I know that guy.

DAVID BOSSIE, AMERICAN POLITICAL ACTIVIST: Good morning, Bossie. This is Dave Bossie, sitting in for Steve Bannon.

O'SULLIVAN: Big part of what's happening on MAGA Media is convincing their audience that there is absolutely no way that Trump can lose.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There's a 99 percent chance we are facing total crazy town.

[20:50:00]

O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): As the day went on --

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If anyone believes that Kamala Harris is ahead in the polls, you need to have your brain checked.

O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): It became clear that MAGA Media is telling their audience to expect the election to be stolen.

MIKE LINDELL, CHIEF EXECUTIVE OFFICER, MY PILLOW: Pennsylvania has done it three times in a row, three times in a row, three elections in a row. They had more votes than voters.

O'SULLIVAN: This is not true.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I just voted in the white settlement election. I voted for one president, checked it on the video screen. When I got the paper ballot, it had the other candidate's name on it.

O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): This video was quickly going viral with some saying it was proof of election fraud.

O'SULLIVAN: This one has 7 million views. Voters in Tarrant County are reporting that the voting machines are flipping their votes from Trump to Harris.

O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): Election officials had responded to the video.

O'SULLIVAN: Now, Tarrant County has put out a press release, 51 retweets compared to millions of views for the video. The original ballot was spoiled and the voter re-marked a new ballot with his preferred choice reflected. Essentially what they're saying is, this guy made a mistake and that's the whole point of having the paper receipt. You can make sure, and he was able to cast his vote correctly.

LINDELL: But I want to tell you guys about our file sheets that just came in.

SEAN SPICER, FORMER WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: Before I do that, I want to tell you how I sleep every night.

O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): But MAGA Media isn't all doom and gloom. There's also a lot of stuff you can buy.

SPICER: But I've got my Beam Dream Powder. Now this --

O'SULLIVAN: It is kind of sad, you see Sean Spicer, once the White House Press Secretary --

RUDY GIULIANI, FORMER ASSOCIATE ATTORNEY GENERAL OF THE UNITED STATES: My own brand of organic specialty coffee, Rudy Coffee.

O'SULLIVAN: Rudy Giuliani, once America's mayor, selling sleeping pills and coffee.

O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): The MAGA Media universe is surreal, but also scary.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The country's probably going to be in a state of whipped-up chaos.

O'SULLIVAN: There are so many shows, so many influencers, so many people just posting all day long. Clearly, one thing that is being pushed really, really hard is that Trump is definitely going to win, and if he doesn't win, it is because of fraud. It is because the election was stolen.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: Donie O'Sullivan joins says now. I love that Sean Spicer is pitching sleeping aids with the tagline, 'People will ask, how do I sleep at night?' Yeah. How does that guy sleep at night? ;; (LAUGH)

O'SULLIVAN (on camera): Yeah. He's pitching the sleeping aids. Mike Lindell is pitching the pillows.

COOPER: Right.

O'SULLIVAN: And then you can wake up with Rudy Giuliani's coffee.

COOPER: Wake up with Rudy -- what better to wake up with than Rudy Giuliani in your home?

(LAUGH)

COOPER: How'd you like that every morning?

O'SULLIVAN: It's so -- it is so surreal. Of course, seeing those characters pushing that. And by the way, the way they pivot so quickly from America is doomed, the election is going to be sold to --

COOPER: Right.

O'SULLIVAN: By the way, buy this -- it just happens. What --

COOPER: All right. Rudy Giuliani may move in with you into your apartment.

(CROSSTALK)

O'SULLIVAN: Well, I think --

COOPER: -- shown into your apartment.

O'SULLIVAN: I'll send him your way first. I think you might have a bit more space. But there will be -- there will be good coffee. I mean, maybe good coffee.

COOPER: And this is, I mean, how wide reaching is this?

O'SULLIVAN: It's huge. I mean, and that it's really -- it's a hard thing to get your head around, which is, it's just endless. I mean, I have to watch this stuff for a living.

(LAUGH)

O'SULLIVAN: Every day, there's a new show.

(CROSSTALK)

COOPER: Bless you, Donie O'Sullivan.

O'SULLIVAN: There's a new show. There's a new account. There's just hundreds of these shows. Millions of Americans are seeing this BS every day.

COOPER: Yeah. Donie O'Sullivan, thanks so much.

(LAUGH)

O'SULLIVAN: Thanks.

COOPER: Better you than me, man. Coming up next, every day -- good coffee -- everyday people changing our world, meet the top-five CNN Heroes of 2024.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:58:10]

COOPER: This is the 18th year that CNN is shining a light on everyday people who see a need in their community and are making a difference. In a moment, you'll see how you can help decide who will be the next 'CNN Hero of the Year' and get an additional $100,000 to continue their work. But first, here are the top-five CNN Heroes for this year.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: In Gothenburg, Sweden, Conductor Ron Davis Alvarez and his dream orchestra give hundreds of refugees, immigrants and native Swedes, a chance to learn an instrument, connect with others, and build better lives.

From Dallas, Stephen Knight was in addiction recovery when he fostered a friend's dog, so she could go to rehab. Today, his program provides free pet care and peace of mind to help dog owners succeed with their sobriety.

Idaho native Payton McGriff is helping girls in the African country of Togo stay in school. Her non-profit provides tuition -- tutoring, and an innovative uniform made by local women. It's designed to grow with the students.

From Phoenixville, Pennsylvania, immigration attorney Rachel Rutter is helping unaccompanied migrant children heal from trauma, start new lives in the U.S. Her non-profit provides free legal support and helps fill in gaps in housing, food, and education.

And a New York City MIT graduate, Yamilee Toussaint's unique program is using dance to empower and educate girls of color in science, technology, engineering, and math.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: These are five remarkable people who prove that one person really can make a difference. It's up to you at home to decide who's going to be the 'CNN Hero of the Year'. Go to cnnheroes.com and vote up to 10 times a day if you want. And on December 8th, watch "CNN Heroes", an all-star tribute and a celebration of all this year's honorees. That's also when the 'CNN Hero of the Year' will be named and they'll get awarded an additional $100,000 in addition to the $10,000 each of them has already received, to continue their work.

It's an incredible night. You won't want to miss.

The news continues right now. "THE SOURCE WITH KAITLAN COLLINS" starts now. I'll see you, tomorrow.