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Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees

NY Times: Federal Inquiry Traced Payments From Gaetz To Women; Haley Criticizes Trump's Intelligence Chief Pick; Interview With Sen. Sheldon Whitehouse (D-RI); Susan Smith, Who Killed Her Two Young Sons 30 Years Ago, Denied Parole; U.S. Embassy In Kyiv Resumes Services After Possible Threat Of A Significant Attack; Biden Administration Approves Sending Anti-personnel Mines To Ukraine. Aired 8-9p ET

Aired November 20, 2024 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

DAVID SMITH, SUSAN SMITH'S EX-HUSBAND: I miss him very much and I love him very much and I will be here every two years going forward to ensure that their death doesn't go in vain.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JEAN CASAREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: And there will be another parole hearing in two years for Susan Smith. You know, her representative spoke today and what he said was that she has been taking a lot of courses -- anger management, mental health classes, and also self- improvement classes.

He said she tried to commit suicide two times in prison. Her father tried to commit suicide and succeeded when she was six years old. He said this is a mental health case and a conviction.

ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: All right, thank you very much, Jean.

And thanks so much to all of you. AC360 starts now.

[20:00:43]

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, "ANDERSON COOPER: 360": Tonight on 360, breaking news, new reporting on the money Matt Gaetz allegedly paid women for sex and drug fueled sex parties after Republicans on the House Ethics Committee blocked the release of a report on the sexual misconduct allegations against him.

Also tonight, the case that horrified the nation, Susan Smith, who drowned her two young sons, then blamed it on a Black carjacker comes up for parole after 30 years in prison. Her argument to go free and how the parole board ruled.

And later, a report from Ukraine where the American embassy is back in operation after concerns the escalating war might make it a target. And where the US is now sending anti-personnel mines before Trump takes office.

Good evening, we begin with breaking news on the nomination of Matt Gaetz for attorney general. Reporting just out in "The New York Times," the headline, a first for potential attorney general, federal inquiry traced payments from Gaetz to women.

Now, take a look. It's a chart that the times obtained that shows pictures of matt Gaetz and his friend, Joel Greenberg, with links to women and payments. It's a lot of links. How does the piece -- this is how the piece describes it, "The document assembled by investigators during a three-year sex trafficking investigation into Mr. Gaetz, is a chart that shows a web of thousands of dollars in Venmo payments between Mr. Gaetz and a group of his friends associates and women who had drug fueled sex parties between 2017 and 2020 according to testimony. The participants are said to have given to Federal Congressional Investigators."

The report continues, at the parties, women and a girl who was 17 at the time were paid for sex, according to accounts of the participant's testimony from people briefed on what they said.

Trump spokesman, Steven Cheung had this to say to the times, quoting him now: "This purposeful leaking of classified investigative material is the sort of politicized DOJ weaponization that Matt Gaetz will end. And Gaetz, as we've said before, denies all allegations against him.

Now, all of this capped off a day that saw Vice President-elect Vance accompanied Gaetz to meet with Republican senators, which left two sources close to the president-elect "optimistic" to use their word. One added that although he was not there yet in terms of the GOP votes, today was a step in the what he considered the right direction.

As for Gaetz himself, he pronounced himself pleased with the day.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MATT GAETZ, US ATTORNEY GENERAL NOMINEE: It's been going great, the Senators have been giving me a lot of good advice saying we're going to get a fair process, so it's a great day of momentum for the Trump- Vance administration.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: Well, that said, even within the Trump orbit there appears to be concern namely about the House Ethics report coming out, with one source telling CNN, "It has the potential to undo any goodwill pretty quickly," which may explain why Republicans on the committee voted today not to release it, something that the Committee Chairman Michael Guest, portrayed as a failure of consensus.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. MICHAEL GUEST (R-MS): I'm not going to talk about any of the matters that happened within the committee, that is confidential.

I released the statement, which I stand by, that there was not an agreement to release the report. And that's the extent of me being able to talk to you or anyone else in the media about the events that transpired in our meeting.

(END VIDEO CLIP) COOPER: Well Susan Wild, the ranking Democrat, took issue with how the chairman put it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. SUSAN WILD (D-PA): I do not want the American public or anyone else to think that Mr. Guest's characterization of what transpired today would be some sort of indication that the committee had unanimity or consensus on this issue not to release the report. That would be an inaccurate portrayal and nobody should take that from what they have heard so far.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: Well, in addition to not coming to any consensus, Republicans on the committee also blocked a determination to finalize the report and release it on December 5th.

CNN's Kaitlan Collins starts us off. She anchors "The Source" at the top of the hour, joins us not far from Mar-a-Lago. So is there a sense of how much this newly published document in "The New York Times" may further complicate Gaetz's nomination?

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR AND CHIEF CORRESPONDENT: I think there's a difference, Anderson, when you ask that question to the campaign and to the president-elect himself, because ever since Trump announced that Matt Gaetz was going to be his pick for attorney general, there were a lot of skeptical voices, even inside the Trump transition team, who had never discussed having him on the short list.

[20:05:05]

He was not on the presentations, the screens that Trump had been looking at as options for his attorney general, only picking him when he was essentially frustrated and didn't really like any of the ones that he had. And given a lot of this information had been out there, which Gaetz has denied over the years, as this investigation has going on.

The Trump team knew a lot of this was going to be coming, that this was going to be an issue that they were dealing with and we are basically bracing ever since it was announced for more information like this to come out from the House Ethics Committee.

And so, they're viewing it in two different ways, where really the officials who are working around Trump are waiting for potentially more information to come out and figuring out how to deal with this as it is coming out.

But the president-elect himself has been standing by his pick, so far. He was lamenting today on Truth Social that clearly Matt Gaetz and Pete Hegseth are undergoing scrutiny and having questions about whether or not they can get confirmed and was essentially making the argument that that I've heard he's also been making in private, which is that no matter who he picks, they were going to be facing situations like this. Obviously, that is something that a lot of Senate Republicans, even would disagree with -- Anderson.

COOPER: Yes, I mean that's seems hard to believe. I mean that seems hard to believe. I mean it seems like Gaetz mostly held the line in his meetings with Senate Republicans. They're basically all saying he deserves a hearing, even if they're not saying they'd vote to confirm, he benefits, obviously, from the House Ethics Committee, not releasing its report. Where does this go next, do you think?

COLLINS: The goal right now is just to get it to a hearing. What they are trying to stave off by having these meetings with these senators today for Matt Gaetz, tomorrow for Pete Hegseth, is that enough of them don't come out because they can only lose a handful and say, I'm just not going to be able to get behind this person.

They are asking them to have an open mind to go into this, to at least have a confirmation hearing where these nominees can then defend themselves and talk about this under oath in front of these senators at this hearing. And instead just get to that point. That is what they're trying to stave off. Trump having to pull any of these names before then.

The question of whether they get there remains to be seen, because look at what JD Vance was tweeting today while they were up there conducting these meetings with the members of the Senate Judiciary Committee. He was noting about Trump's win on election night and how many of the Senate Republicans he essentially was arguing, rode in on Donald Trump's coattails.

There are several Senate Republicans that were explicitly picked and backed by Donald Trump, won their primaries, mainly because of him and his backing and his influence in the Republican Party. And so, JD Vance was arguing Trump deserves to have the Cabinet that he wants in place.

I think the question of all of this, Anderson, changes when the numbers start happening and they start counting the votes of what they do have going into this. And if there are enough Senate Republicans who come out and say, I just can't get there, my mind is not open on this. That's when the calculus could change internally here at Mar-a- Lago as far as who is going to be the pick for these two key roles.

COOPER: All right, Kaitlan Collins, thanks. I know you have a member of the House Ethics Committee on tonight. We'll see you on "The Source" at nine.

Joining us right now, CNN senior political commentator Scott Jennings, former Democratic Congressman Mondaire Jones, who served on the Ethics Committee, CNN political commentator, Alyssa Farah Griffin and "New York Times" national political reporter, Astead Herndon.

I mean, Alyssa, you look at this kind of Venmo chart of connection, web of connections, which seems quite extensive. It's like a spider web. Does that -- I mean, does that move the needle a little? ALYSSA FARAH GRIFFIN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Listen, if any people advising the president, former president have to make a calculation of is it better if this goes to an open committee hearing and this sort of thing is dug out in the open with more and greater detail, it's incredibly salacious, it is incredibly damning and it is -- it's not something that if I were advising him, I would want him to be kind of tied in with as opposed to if you were to, you know, John Thune go to him and say, you may struggle to have the votes and he pulls the nomination.

It's a much more graceful off ramp for Donald Trump. And what I'm still trying to gauge is when I worked for Trump, I knew when there was someone he was dug in on a guy or gal that he had to have somebody that he was really going to go down fighting for.

I'm not totally convinced that he's there with Matt Gaetz. He's making the calls. He's doing the things that he needs to but you'll know if he's giving his full throated, you will be primaried, if you're not with him endorsement. And it doesn't quite feel like it's there yet. And in my experience, they have a good relationship.

But this isn't one of his buddies that he's necessarily going to expend much of his own political capital for.

COOPER: Congressman Jones, I mean, if there are hearings, would Democrats be able to bring witnesses or ask some of these women to come forward?

MONDAIRE JONES, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes, look, I mean typically when you're a hearing, despite the fact that the opposing party is in the majority you're able to reach agreement with your colleagues across the aisle about the witnesses that will be invited to speak.

One thing I know about members of Congress whether in the House or in the Senate, is that they think very highly of themselves and they are loathed to give up power that is given to them for example, under the Constitution, under their advice and consent function.

And so, this idea that somehow it's going to go to a recess appointment, which would also require a majority vote in the Senate I think is not going to happen. I think this is going to be something that if Matt Gaetz stays in this process, is definitely going to be very much out in the open.

And I would be shocked, given the fact that all ten of the House Ethics Committee members have this document at this point, if this is not released to the public even through a leak.

[20:10:18]

COOPER: Scott, what do you see happening?

SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes, I agree. Whether they release it or not, it's inconceivable to me that, even if the report as written doesn't come out that all of the information contained therein will come out. I mean, we're already seeing it, reporters getting their hands on things and then, you know, the Judiciary Committee can always just call the same witnesses that testified to the Ethics Committee and have them give the same testimony in the Senate, which I presume they are going to do.

So, if your Gaetz and the president's team, you just have to count on virtually every detail that isn't already out coming out. And then, you know Republican senators are going to have to decide whether they want to die on this hill.

I would just say on the primarying people and the political threats you know, there's a group of these Republican Senators who are basically not threatenable, you know, either they're going to retire or they have you know, well-known feuds with Donald Trump already or you know --

GRIFFIN: Your old boss, Mitch has an important vote.

JENNINGS: I mean, there are several in a group that you could consider on the floor being just not threatenable by the normal sort of political machinations. And they can only lose three. And there's probably more than three that fall into that category.

JONES: Susan Collins is up for reelection in 2026.

JENNINGS: I mean it, maybe if she yes, I mean she's -- hopefully she runs again. But yes, I mean, she's on the ballot. But, you know, does it behoove her politically to fall in line on this or to oppose him on something.

And so, some of these folks just aren't in the same political category as the others.

COOPER: Astead, I mean, how do you read in that so many Senate Republicans are saying, or at least one is talking to the press, are saying, that there should be a hearing?

ASTEAD HERNDON, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: I actually think that this has gotten to the point where I can understand why the Trump team thinks, just may push the ball a little further down the field, because they're banking on their kind of political pressure and the sense of mandate that came from the result on last Tuesday to really squeeze those Republican senators out of a ton of wiggle room.

I know that there were senators have a kind of grace and kind of political leeway that certainly folks in the House do not. But we should say that this is a Donald Trump that's coming in emboldened.

And I think that there is a sense even among Republicans, that some of that energy from the base is because they've been really motivated to make this time not like last time, where a lot of Republicans thought that Congressional Republicans were thwarting him at every opportunity.

And so, I just think that there is an electorate urge for this on the Republican front. So, I don't think I would assume that they would not at least make it to a confirmation hearing. And from the Trump side, it seems as if they want to get to that hearing to make this a show and once they get to the point where it's a show, that's a place they feel most comfortable.

They don't want this to get pulled before they get it to a point where it looks like they're thwarting Trump's guys.

JENNINGS: I agree that there may be an urge in the Republican electorate for something to happen at the Department of Justice that sort of brings it more in line with the way they see that it should be run. I question whether they believe that Gaetz is the singular figure.

And so, that's what I've heard from a lot of Trump supporting Republicans is I absolutely agree with the impulse that the DOJ needs to be cleaned up and depoliticized, but is this the only person who can do it? And do we have to support this person given all the ancillary --

COOPER: I mean, Elon Musk says he has an axe to grind. I'm not sure that. I mean, there are probably a lot of a fair number of Republicans maybe privately, who at least don't think that's maybe the greatest quality in an attorney general, I would assume.

JENNINGS: Well, whether it's the greatest quality or not it's probably not the greatest messaging tool. But look, you got to understand a lot of Republicans think that that's exactly what Democrats have been doing to Republicans is grinding political axes. And so that is that is an emotional impulse that they have.

As a public facing matter, when you're trying to get somebody confirmed, what do you want to be arguing? They're highly qualified. You know, they're going to do a good job. They're going to, you know, at the Department of Justice, they're going to meet out justice fairly. They're going to depoliticize the office. They're going to pursue the priorities -- the justice priorities of the president that just got elected.

Those are the things you want to be arguing over, not the web of --

HERNDON: I guess I would just say if that was true, it wouldn't just be Gaetz, though. That would also apply to Gabbard, that would apply to Robert F. Kennedy. I mean, I just think that were seeing a Trump administration that is making a statement of intent with these nominees, and that feels distinct.

COOPER: How much push back can there be on all these candidates?

GRIFFIN: Right, that's the thing. There's going to be a picking and choosing of who Republicans have the appetite to actually block. But something interesting is happening on the right. Rupert Murdoch's "New York Post" and some Fox News anchors have been extremely critical of the Matt Gaetz pick and there's actually been some pushback, even on Pete Hegseth.

"The Wall Street Journal" has a piece questioning his qualifications to have such a big role and Donald Trump does care about how his nominees and his potential appointees are represented in the media. And I get the sense that this Gaetz idea was brought to him in the 11th hour. It seemed like a good idea. But when he sees his allies and friends being like this isn't your guy, there's a world in which he backs off.

COOPER: We've got to take a quick break. Coming up next, speaking with Tulsi Gabbard and others, Nikki Haley, sharp words about Trump's choice for director of National Intelligence, what she said and why.

And, Susan Smith, she drowned her two children, deceived her family, and the country, but now wants to walk free after 30 years in prison. What she told the parole board, ahead on 360.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:19:36]

COOPER: Tonight's breaking news, "The New York Times" detailing an alleged web of payments from Matt Gaetz to women who say they were hired for sex, comes as another Trump pick faces criticism from a first time Trump appointee.

Nikki Haley, his one-time UN Ambassador, took issue today with the choice of Tulsi Gabbard as director of National Intelligence.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NIKKI HALEY, FORMER US AMBASSADOR TO THE UN: This is not a place for a Russian, Iranian, Syrian, Chinese sympathizer.

DNI has to analyze real threats. Are we comfortable with someone like that at the top of our National Intelligence agencies?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[20:20:10]

COOPER: Nikki Haley, of course, opposed candidate Trump in the primaries this year and continues to pay a price for it. She's essentially been blackballed by him because of it. Also, had sharp words for Health and Human Services pick in vaccine candidate falsehood promoter Robert F. Kennedy Jr. The Senate, she said needs to ask the hard questions to him before we go and approve him.

For more in the chamber's constitutional duty to advise and consent on presidential nominees. We're joined tonight by Rhode Island Democratic Senator Sheldon Whitehouse, who sits on the Judiciary Committee.

Senator, thank you for being with us. Do you think Nikki Haley's criticism of Tulsi Gabbard will break through with any of your Republican Senate colleagues and what do you think of the prospect of Gabbard as DNI?

SEN. SHELDON WHITEHOUSE (D-RI): Yes, I think it will in time, in order to have an effective intelligence operation protecting Americans, you have to be able to work well with our allies, particularly the legendary Five Eyes, with whom we share enormous amounts of information and trust.

If we bring in somebody like this who smells to other intelligence agencies like someone who will compromise their sources and methods and be far too cozy with Russia and other adversaries, then they're going to hold back information that could be really critical to our success.

And as things like that begin to filter through that is a choice that actually puts Americans at risk, because we won't have access to intelligence that could be critical to our safety. I think Republicans will likely begin to come around.

COOPER: I mean, do you think, Tulsi Gabbard could actually get a security clearance if she went through the normal channels to get a normal investigation to get a security clearance?

WHITEHOUSE: I think if she were if she were being hired at some mid- level position in the Intelligence Committee or in the Defense Department, I think she'd end up being rejected for not being able to get a security clearance.

COOPER: That's incredible.

WHITEHOUSE: Well, it's pretty incredible that the candidate for attorney general, his only experience with criminal investigations is being on the receiving end of one.

COOPER: That is also incredible. There's this breaking news from "The New York Times" that we mentioned at the top of the program, the paper reporting that according to a document that obtained that were showing on the screen right now are about two federal investigators established a trail of payments from Matt Gaetz, President-elect Donald Trump's choice to be attorney general obviously, to women, including some who testified that Mr. Gaetz hired them for sex, according to a document obtained by "The Times."

I wonder your reaction to that is and to Republicans on the House Ethics Committee today essentially blocking the release of their report on Gaetz.

WHITEHOUSE: Look, we should get the House Ethics report. We should get the Department of Justice files, there's precedent for getting the House Ethics report. He's going to be overseeing the DOJ and the FBI. So what they have on him in the House is highly relevant, so I think the real issue here is how low the Republicans want to go, because this is going to keep coming out.

This isn't the last piece of news. The information in the House Ethics files and in the DOJ report came in from witnesses who are available to us. And we're going to keep digging.

I think the bottom line here is that there is an element of Trump wanting to sort of subjugate Republican senators here. There's a legend of the foreign potentate who had the door to his reception chamber two feet high. So, everybody who wanted to approach him had to come in at a crawl. And I think some of these candidates are essentially Trump challenging the Republican Senate to a crawl moment. And the stakes are getting higher and higher as more and more bad information comes out about these nominees.

COOPER: Well, I mean, Gaetz, as you know, met with several Senators on Capitol Hill today. I mean, it seems like so far Republican Senators seem mostly to be on the same page, at least publicly, which is that gates has some serious allegations to address. But he deserves a hearing. Do you think there are enough Republican senators who would say no to him as attorney general?

WHITEHOUSE: I know I think it's too early to tell that. As I said, I think this is the crawl test for senators. I think there are some Republican senators who are eager to crawl. I think there are others who are trying to keep their powder dry and stay out of trouble with Trump for as long as they can.

But when its game day and this information about Gaetz and all of his sexual misbehavior and his payments for things, in addition to his complete lack of qualification, I mean we're focusing on the sex part, but this is a guy who has no idea how to do that job whatsoever and will clearly bring to it a really foul political cast.

So, there are abundant reasons that are going to make it more and more difficult as time goes by, and we'll just have to see who's going to stand up part of the Republican Caucus and who's in the crawl part of the Republican Caucus.

COOPER: Senator Whitehouse, I appreciate your time. Thank you.

Back now with the panel, Alyssa, I mean, he's not willing to say whether or not he's really confident there's enough Republican senators.

[20:25:11]

GRIFFIN: Yes. I mean, listen, I think it's an open question. And I do think that there's something to what the senator is saying, that Donald Trump comes in with a mandate. He won the popular vote, which I think was unexpected to many people. And I think he wants to see if Republicans are willing to be loyal to him and to vote for his nominees.

COOPER: You think this is a test?

GRIFFIN: I think in some ways it is a test. I don't think that there was some long-standing plan to have someone like a Gaetz in place. But I will say on the Nikki Haley comment, I completely agree with her and her assessment of Tulsi Gabbard.

A lot of folks were telling people during the election it's not like he's going to appoint RFK. It's not like he's going to make Tulsi Gabbard head of the DNI or the CIA. This is what he told us he was going to do. And I think it's just a case of people need to take Trump pretty seriously in what he says and what he's going to do. COOPER: But isn't she -- because I mean, clearly, his whole team wants to be effective. They want to get their, you know, what they want to get done. It seems like there would be -- he seems to have gone for people who have marquee names, who are recognizable from Fox News and elsewhere, when there's probably a whole range of people who are not as well known, who don't necessarily have that baggage, but who have the same aggressive tendencies or willingness to execute what he wants or wouldn't, there be?

JENNINGS: Well, look --

COOPER: I mean, is he paying a price for going for people who have high name recognition?

JENNINGS: Maybe, but at the same time, these people were his most loyal campaigners. I mean, Tulsi Gabbard and RFK were on the road with him campaigning for him and their worldview, whether it's on health issues or whether it's on foreign policy issues was well known to people when they voted, well known to him and promoted by their campaign and he did win.

And I think with Gabbard, obviously, she has a different foreign policy worldview than the hawkish end of the Republican Party. That's different than saying she's not qualified to do the job.

And so, I think when you get to the hearings on her, some Republican senators may wind up saying, look, I don't necessarily agree with this worldview that she has on the other hand, because of her, the way she's answered questions and the way she's conducted herself, she's qualified for the job.

I could see where people could land on that --

GRIFFIN: I hear there's a judgment concern, though. I've heard from a number of lawmakers, they're concerned about her judgment and that she has knowingly shared misinformation and disinformation, fallen for some clearly Kremlin propaganda in the past --

JENNINGS: They'll come up with the hearings right?

GRIFFIN: But yes, her job will be to assess, you know, our intelligence.

COOPER: Congressman, I've heard you say that, you think the president- elect's other cabinet picks have been a distraction from Tulsi Gabbard. Do you think that's intentional? Like this is some sort of 3- D chess he's playing or just there's so many you know, questionable nominees that it's just natural that it would be a distraction.

JONES: Well, I want to be clear that, I don't think it's a distraction to be talking about Matt Gaetz and Pete Hegseth because they're both quite toxic and dangerous in their own ways.

But it is also the case that I've noticed us not talking as much just in the media generally about Tulsi Gabbard who should come no place close to being the director of National Intelligence; who, if she were to be confirmed, would make all of America less safe and do damage to our foreign policy interests.

And I do think that there is some strategy on the part of the incoming Trump administration to flood the zone, so to speak, to throw as many of these extremely controversial, overwhelmingly unqualified people at the wall and to, in some respects sacrifice Matt Gaetz who's been getting the most attention. So that Republican Senators are less willing to stand up to Donald Trump when it comes to some of the other individuals including Tulsi Gabbard.

HERNDON: I mean, I guess I take a more basic view here. I think that Donald Trump, if you look at the last two years, has promised a DOJ that maybe it's not led by Matt Gaetz, but it's Matt Gaetz; like has promised an isolationist foreign policy, has thumbed their nose at kind of National Security establishment, so much so that we should see these picks as I think his intention to follow through on those promises.

I think there was a big distinction between the voters who voted for him, many of whom were not completely insulated in that world. And I think their own vision of their mandate, which I think is doubling down on that kind of kind of MAGA first ideology and the clearest expression of it.

Because I don't think that we can just say, like, of course there can be another person who might execute the same kind of goals as a retribution DOJ as Matt Gaetz but I think Donald Trump is choosing this person on purpose because of the crawl test. The kind of the Senator White House laid out and honestly, why wouldn't he?

We haven't seen Senate Republicans really show much desire to push back against Donald Trump. Until that comes, why wouldn't he choose the person of his clearance?

COOPER: Alyssa, I understand the argument of like, somebody from outside the system coming in to break up to, you know, throw a bomb into your bureaucracy and reorganize things. But also bureaucracies have their own inertia and their own power wouldn't it be more effective to actually have somebody who has experience in these bureaucracies to actually get in there?

GRIFFIN: I strongly agree with that and I've heard this from a number of folks, whether it's DOJ or the Department of Defense--

COOPER: Because can a bunch of like very established people in the Department of Justice slow things down in ways that a Pete Hegseth won't even realize?

GRIFFIN: It's very much so. My prediction was, if Hegseth gets confirmed, he's going to be outmaneuvered by the Joint Chiefs, by four stars who have spent 20 years in the Pentagon and know how to bring things to a screeching halt when they want to.

And at DOJ, someone like Todd Blanche who is Donald Trump's criminal defense attorney, is actually qualified for the role. He's someone who is going to be deeply loyal to him, but he knows how the institution works.

Matt Gaetz is going to spend weeks trying to find the bathroom and know what the different checks are within the department.

So, my point would be like Pete Hegseth, it's going to be very challenging to get him through. Joni Ernst, a historic pick who actually knows how DoD operates and actually is aligned with Donald Trump's agenda. There's just an easier way to do what he wants to do.

[20:30:57]

JENNINGS: But is that -- is that what you really want? The military outmaneuvering the civilian leadership?

FARAH GRIFFIN: No. No, that's why I think you need someone who is confident.

JENNINGS: And so -- but, think about what you're saying, is that there are people in the Pentagon who would then work to outmaneuver the civilian leadership of the military --

FARAH GRIFFIN: We know this exists.

JENNINGS: -- as appointed by the president. And that's what a lot of people are upset about with the federal government at all, is that you've got this entire bureaucracy with momentum that pays no attention to the political leadership. And that is a problem.

FARAH GRIFFIN: Totally agree. But to disrupt it, you need someone who understands how it works.

COOPER: All right, everyone, thank you. Coming up, the latest on an infamous unthinkable murder 30 years ago. I can't believe it's been 30 years. The question was, would a parole board set free Susan Smith, the mom who killed her own two sons by drowning them in her car on a lake? Gary Tuchman joins us next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:35:50]

COOPER: I want to update you now on a story that stunned and horrified the nation and much of the world three decades ago. Today, Susan Smith, a mother convicted of murdering her two young sons by drowning them in her car in a lake, was denied parole after serving 30 years of a life sentence in South Carolina. Gary Tuchman tonight has more.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GARY TUCHMAN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The Susan Smith of today, a murderer seeking parole --

SU.S.AN SMITH, CONVICTED FOR MURDERING HER TWO SONS: I want to say how very sorry I am.

TUCHMAN (voice-over): -- was regarded very differently three decades ago, immediately after claiming her children disappeared, when she stood with her husband and said this.

SMITH: I would like to say to whoever has my children that they please, I mean, please bring them home.

TUCHMAN (voice-over): Michael was three-years-old, described by family and friends as the bashful one. Alex, just 14-months-old, was described as the rambunctious one. Susan Smith lied and told police she was carjacked and her children kidnapped by a man she described as black. An artist's rendition of the fictional man was created by police. Law enforcement and members of the public immediately went into action, searching for the children. David Smith, believing at the time his wife was telling the truth, made this anguished appeal.

DAVID SMITH, SUSAN SMITH'S EX-HUSBAND: I plead to the guy, to the man -- me and my wife plead to him to please return our children to us safely and unharmed.

TUCHMAN (voice-over): But police were suspicious. And nine days after Michael and Alex were reported missing, this stunning announcement.

SHERIFF HOWARD WELLS, UNION COUNTY, SOUTH CAROLINA: Susan Smith has been arrested and will be charged with two counts of murder in connection with the deaths of her children.

TUCHMAN (voice-over): Susan Smith killed her children by rolling her car into a lake in Union County, South Carolina, and then getting out, leaving her children to drown in their car seats. Prosecutors said she was upset that a boyfriend she had on the side didn't want to be with her because she had children.

During the subsequent investigation, a reenactment at the lake was done with a similar vehicle. The car took several minutes to sink.

Cameras were not allowed during Susan Smith's murder trial, but the diver who recovered the children's bodies testified that he shined a flashlight in the window of the submerged vehicle and all he saw was a little hand pressed against the window. Susan Smith was found guilty but spared the death penalty and received life in prison. However, under South Carolina law at the time, could be paroled after 30 years.

Her ex-husband David is remarried with a daughter and son, both in their 20s. He doesn't want his ex-wife paroled. He has said he is horrified and traumatized by what she did. He recently said this.

D. SMITH: I have been dreading this year for almost 30 years.

TUCHMAN (voice-over): And now, three decades later, Susan Smith got to have her say before the South Carolina Parole Board.

S. SMITH: I know that what I did was so horrible.

TUCHMAN (voice-over): But also getting his say, David Smith sitting next to his wife, Tiffany, talking about his boys and future parole hearings.

D. SMITH: I miss them very much and I love them very much, and I will be here every two years going forward to ensure that your death doesn't go in vain.

TUCHMAN (voice-over): The Parole Board voted unanimously, no parole at this time for Susan Smith.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: Gary Tuchman joins us now. I mean, was anyone surprised that Smith was not paroled today?

TUCHMAN (on camera): No surprise, Anderson. It was a long shot at best, and there are a number of reasons for the decision that was made. A major reason is that David Smith, the father of the boys, does not want Susan Smith to leave prison. And that is a very important thing for the Parole Board to hear.

In addition, Susan Smith has committed several serious infractions while in prison, she's been punished for it, and that doesn't bode well when you're a convicted murderer who wants to be paroled. And one other thing I want to mention, Anderson, 30 years ago, I was part of the reporting team at CNN that covered this trial in South Carolina. It was a very difficult trial to cover. It was very emotional.

[20:40:00]

We thought about these boys all the time. We think about them frequently over the years. We're thinking about them today. And today, Michael would be 33-years-old. Alex would be 31-years-old and perhaps they'd be fathers today. Anderson?

COOPER: It's unthinkable. Gary Tuchman, thank you very much.

Coming up next, Latino voters in Florida sharing why they supported candidate Trump and our Harry Enten has the exit polling from that key demographic nationwide on Election Day.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: One of the factors that propelled President-elect Trump to victory earlier this month was the growing support he got from Latinos.

[20:45:00]

Tonight, our Isabel Rosales is in Central Florida, talking with some of those voters in a historically blue county with a thriving Puerto Rican population, who helped turn the county red for the first time in decades with a narrow victory. Here's Isabel's report.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DIANA MARRERO-PINTO, PUERTO RICAN TRUMP SUPPORTER: So these are the pork chops, and if you look, this is less than two pounds and it's $5.49 a pound. The eggs now, I mean the eggs have gone up probably like 50 percent in price, and then milk's just another item that's completely gone up. We're so tightly squeezed that we're living in an economy where all you're doing is working to live, and that's not the American dream.

ISABEL ROSALES, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Whether it's sticker shock at the grocery store or watching her youngest son move out of Florida's Osceola County, his dream of affording a home out of reach, Diana Marrero-Pinto's family has faced a bleak economic picture.

MARRERO-PINTO: People were tired. They were just tired. They were tired of prices going up.

ROSALES (voice-over): A registered independent, she voted Republican at the top of the ticket, but for Democrats in some local and Congressional races. In 2016, the Puerto Rican voted Donald Trump. But four years later, she went for Joe Biden bothered in part about this 2017 incident when Trump threw paper towels at struggling Puerto Rican residents during the aftermath of Hurricane Maria. But now, Diana came back to Trump.

TONY HINCHCLIFFE, COMEDIAN: There's literally a floating island of garbage in the middle of the ocean right now.

ROSALES: What do you say about the Latino vote?

MARRERO-PINTO: You spend so much time trying to push down our throats that people like Trump have disrespected us by throwing paper towels and by having a comedian that said what he said. You don't realize how much you disrespect us by insulting our intelligence and thinking that you just have us in your back pocket. We're just not going to stamp you -- rubber stamp you because you have a D behind your name.

ROSALES: Latinos are in the majority here in Osceola County, in large part thanks to its thriving Puerto Rican community, one of the largest in the sunshine state, and how they vote is important. Joe Biden beat Trump here by 14 points back in 2020. Four years earlier, Hillary Clinton won it by 25 points. But this November, Trump narrowly won Osceola by less than two points, on his way to carrying the state by a decisive margin.

Hey, Mark. I'm Isabel.

ROSALES (voice-over): The County's longtime GOP chairman not taken by surprise they flipped red.

ROSALES: What happened here with Trump? How did he do it?

MARK CROSS, IN OSCEOLA COUNTY GOP CHAIRMAN: It basically is on the issues. You have to ask the question, where you better off four years ago than you are today? And nobody in their right mind can say yes.

ROSALES: So it's about the economy?

CROSS Economy is part of it. I mean, the illegal immigration problem is part of it. When you talk about Puerto Ricans and how they vote, what I've noticed is it's not really a Puerto Rican or a Latino vote. It's an American vote.

ROSALES: Americans by birthright, some Puerto Rican Trump supporters welcoming mass deportations.

JORGE CERUTO, PUERTO RICAN TRUMP SUPPORTER: I have no problems with anybody coming into U.S. legally, but crossing the border, I don't care from what country, they should be going back to their country and coming back legally into the country.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: [Foreign Language]. Great America.

ROSALES (voice-over): She thinks that Donald Trump is the answer to the future. That he's going to make the economy great again, and that he has already started by getting undocumented people out of here.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: [Foreign Language].

ROSALES (voice-over): And as Diana plates a searing Chuletas for dinner, her faith is unwavering.

ROSALES: Do you see Trump as a strong Christian man?

MARRERO-PINTO: I see Trump as someone who has foundational Christian values. I wasn't looking for a pastor. I didn't have to worry if he was a saint.

ROSALES (voice-over): No saint, nor pastor, but a man she says, who shares her values.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: And Isabel Rosales joins us now. What are local Republican officials hoping to do to keep the county red going forward?

ROSALES (on camera): Here in Osceola County, there's an exceptionally large amount of non-party affiliated voters, meaning that both sides have to bring their A game to court these voters. Now, Mark Cross, that GOP County Chairman who you saw in the story, he is passing the torch. He is announcing that he is endorsing his successor, a Puerto Rican pastor, and as a Latino, he would be the first to lead the local party.

Now, I asked Cross, what is the message they're trying to send with that? And he told me it's that the Republicans are looking toward the future, someone who is a leader, who represents the community, is young, and also showing, Anderson, that they are very serious about this important voting bloc.

COOPER: All right. Isabel Rosales, thanks so much. Joining us now with more perspective, CNN's Senior Data Reporter, Harry Enten. So, what do exit polls show regarding Latino voters?

[20:50:00]

HARRY ENTEN, CNN SENIOR DATA REPORTER: You know, I just think it's so important to point out that Osceola is not an outlier. It's part of a larger story. No matter where you go on the map -- southwest, southeast, northwest, northeast -- you see that Trump did historically well with Hispanic voters. So let's take a look at the exit polls, compare what happened in 2020 to what happened in 2024.

Back in 2020, Donald Trump got blown out among Hispanic voters. You see it, they are an over 30-point margin for Joe Biden. This time around, Kamala Harris won among Hispanic voters, but just by six points. If you go back through the entire history, the entire history of the exit polls, we have them dating back since 1972, Donald Trump did better with Hispanic voters than any GOP nominee for president in the history of all the exit polls.

COOPER: What about Latino men?

ENTEN: Yeah, that is what really drove what was going on in the exit polls that you saw overall with Hispanics, right? So if you look at Hispanic men, four years ago, what you saw was that Joe Biden easily carried them. You can see it on your screen right there, by 23 points. Look at what Donald Trump did. He became the first Republican nominee for president to win among Hispanic men in the entire history of the exit poll and part of that was really driven -- we were here on Monday night, Donie was here with me. He was sitting in my chair. I was sitting over to the right, and we saw that Donald Trump did historically well among younger men. That carried over with Hispanic men as well.

In fact, if you were to look at the exit poll, what you saw was that Donald Trump carried Hispanic men by about 20 points. It was a ridiculous showing. If you had asked me eight years ago, would Donald Trump be winning among Hispanic men and doing so well with Hispanics? I'd say, no way buddy. But it turns out the Donald Trump did exactly that, breaking history once again.

COOPER: All right. Harry Enten, thanks very much.

ENTEN: Thank you.

COOPER: Coming up, Ukraine's capital on edge as the U.S. embassy and others closed after learning of a possible threat of an air attack. Nick Paton Walsh joins us from Kyiv, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:56:20]

COOPER: In a sign of quickly escalating fears in Ukraine, the U.S. embassy among others in Kyiv shut down today. It later reopened after what the U.S. ambassador called a possible threat of a significant attack. Ukraine denounced what they said was Russian misinformation that amplified anxieties in the capital, awake most of the night from air raids or sirens.

Also, President Biden has approved sending Ukraine anti-personnel mines for the first time. That's a big shift for the Administration. It comes after Ukraine launched U.S. longer-range missiles into Russia for the first time. Our Chief International Security Correspondent, Nick Payton Walsh, joins us from Kyiv.

Nick, what was behind the warnings today? NICK PATON WALSH, CHIEF INTERNATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, I mean, it's unclear exactly what intelligence sparked this. But it was specific enough that the U.S. Embassy made this public statement in the morning, that they will be closing for the first time since they relocated just before the start of the invasion, now 1,001, days ago.

Now, it had many people on edge here, certainly, because U.S. intelligence has been pretty good throughout much of this war. And indeed it was followed up by the Greek, Italians and Spanish shutting their embassies as well. Be in no doubt, Kyiv has been under bombardment pretty regularly, particularly intense in the past two months, in fact, particularly bad at bombardment over the weekend itself.

So this doesn't mark necessarily a change in the threat across the capital, but the fear I think was that the Americans knew something about their own embassy or maybe a larger-scale attack. Now, during the day, there were reports on social media specifying in slightly suspicious levels of detail that a large attack was planned. And then Ukrainian government came out and said that some of these reports, frankly, were pretty badly made fakes, misinformation designed to sow panic.

Now, I think it's fair to say they contributed to some of the anxiety, but they probably weren't the cause of all of it. And we don't know really if these bad fakes were behind the American decision. The embassy opens again tomorrow, but I think we are looking now at Ukraine, concerned as to what Russia's response is going to be after the dramatic policy change of the Biden Administration, and it appears the U.K. government too, to allow longer-range ATACMS and Storm Shadow missiles to be fired by Ukraine at targets inside Russia. That's a sea change in this conflict, Anderson.

COOPER: And what's the latest on the anti-personnel mines that the Biden Administration approved to send to Ukraine?

PATON WALSH: Yeah, I mean, some controversy over these obviously, because they stayed behind on the battlefield long after war, potentially injuring civilians long after the moment of conflict indeed has passed. But the U.S. Secretary of Defense, Lloyd Austin, said this decision to supply these mines was essentially a reflection of a change in tactics by the Russians. They've been using armored vehicles for so long, but I have to say, it's been a few months now that they've been dismounting and sending small groups of infantry ahead.

These anti-personnel mines will (inaudible) battlefield is littered with mines by the Russians already and some of the Ukrainian ones too. So not hugely changing the nature of the war here, but I think this policy decision is a bid by the Biden Administration after the ATACMS longer-range missiles call we heard from Joe Biden on Sunday to show they're reaching deep into their toolkit, trying to say that all policy options are now on the table for them.

They announced $275 million more worth of aid today as well. It's all about all sides here, racing fast to get themselves in the best position possible ahead of what most think is a sea change in this conflict when President-elect Donald Trump comes to power in January. He says he wants to stop the killing. Many are concerned here that he won't allow Ukraine to be in a position of strength, large enough that it can get a good piece, a just piece, to quote President Zelenskyy here, out of Russia. Anderson?

COOPER: Nick Paton Walsh, thank you. And that's it for us. Thanks for watching. The news continues. "The Source with Kaitlan Collins" starts now.