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Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees

Trump Taps Pam Bondi as AG After Gaetz Withdraws Nomination, Source: Trump Told Gaetz You Don't Have The Votes to be Confirmed; Hegseth Inaccurately Claims He Was Completely Cleared of Sexual Assault Allegation; Hegseth Claims He Was "Completely Cleared" Of Sexual Assault Allegation; Support For Trump's Wall In AZ "Hot Spot" For Migrants, Drugs; Putin Says Russia Hit Ukraine With New Mid-Range Ballistic Missile; Pentagon: Russia Notified US Before Firing Ballistic Missile At Ukraine; Wisconsin Kayaker Accused Of Faking His Own Death Says He's "Safe", Won't Reveal His Location. Aired 8-9p ET

Aired November 21, 2024 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

HARRY ENTEN, CNN POLITICS SENIOR WRITER AND ANALYST: ... men who, historically speaking, haven't necessarily been so friendly to the Republican brand, but they like cryptocurrency and they like Donald Trump.

ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: Well, it's fascinating, and we'll see, I mean, let's see what ends up happening here --

ENTEN: If it is a big Ponzi scheme, who knows?

BURNETT: All right, Harry, thank you.

ENTEN: Thank you.

BURNETT: And thanks so much, as always to all of you for being with us. We'll see you back here tomorrow. AC360 meantime, starts right now.

[20:00:24]

JOHN BERMAN, CNN HOST: All right, tonight on 360, two big pieces of breaking news on the first big setback for President-elect Trump and just how it came to be. Matt Gaetz's pick for attorney general, saying no thanks to the job before senators have a chance to say no thanks to him.

And, the president-elect's choice, just a short time ago of Trump loyalists and former Florida Attorney General Pam Bondi to take the place of Gaetz.

Also tonight, what now becomes the Fox host, Pete Hegseth, Trump's choice to run the Pentagon. As a police report complete with lurid details of the sexual assault allegation against him, come to light.

Plus, a report from Southern Arizona, where expectations for the new administration's border policies are running high, but so is the apprehension. All right, good evening John Berman here in for Anderson. Donald Trump just lost his first battle as president-elect and immediately joined a new one.

That first battle to push through a pick for attorney general who has been accused of sexual misconduct, including sex with a minor. Trump could not get that man or that baggage through though it is notable he tried.

So, now just a short time ago, the president-elect chose former Florida Attorney General Pam Bondi to be his second attorney general designee. She also worked for years as a prosecutor, served as one of then President Trump's attorneys for his first impeachment trial, and was a 2020 election denier.

She also defended Trump after a subsequent felony indictments, including the Florida documents case.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PAM BONDI, (R) FORMER ATTORNEY GENERAL NOW NOMINEE: we don't talk about all the time weaponization of our courts, weaponization of our law enforcement.

And you know, today, truly or if he really is indicted, I believe he will be in Florida. It truly is weaponization.

The ultimate sense, guys, the ultimate sense, because there are so many violent crimes out there that they should be investigating and my guess is those real FBI agents out there don't want to be doing this. They want to be investigating the real crime.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: So, Pam Bondi steps in tonight after the nomination of fellow Floridian Matt Gaetz imploded in nearly record time. It took eight days, about eight-tenths of a Scaramucci. As in Anthony Scaramucci, who does join us shortly for Gaetz to fall to earth.

Gaetz withdrew his nomination today. And tonight, we also know a lot more about how it played out and why. Gaetz took himself out of the running with a social media post. "There is no time to waste." It reads in part, "On a needlessly protracted Washington scuffle. Thus, I'll be withdrawing my name from consideration to serve as attorney general."

The post went up at 12:24 PM, about 45 minutes after CNN reached out about our new reporting that the House Ethics Committee was told of a second alleged sexual encounter between Gaetz and a 17-year-old at the center of the accusations, 17 years old.

Tonight, we also know it came after a phone call from the president- elect, who told him he did not have the senate votes to continue something one Republican finally managed to say out loud after the fact today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. KEVIN CRAMER (D-ND): I know enough people that were hell no in the in the conference and you know, the path would have been very, very difficult.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: All right, that's North Dakota Senator Kevin Cramer, who sits on the Senate Arm Services Committee and also expressed concerns about Defense Secretary designee, Pete Hegseth, who was accused in 2017 of sexually assaulting a woman at a conservative conference in Monterey, California.

Late last night, CNN obtained the police report in which the accuser told police Hegseth was acting inappropriately toward other women during the conference. According to the report, she later told a hospital nurse that she, "was not sure, but believes that something may have been slipped into her drink as she cannot remember most of the night's events. The report says the nurse then passed that on to police.

Hegseth denies the allegations, even as he and the woman reached a settlement which included both a payment to her and a confidentiality agreement. Today on Capitol Hill, meeting with senators, he made the following claim, which is not quite accurate.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PETE HEGSETH, US SECRETARY OF DEFENSE NOMINEE: As far as the media is concerned, it's very simple. The matter was fully investigated and I was completely cleared and that's where I am going to leave it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: So, in point of fact though, he was not charged, he was also not cleared either.

All right, more now on all the breaking news from CNN's Kaitlan Collins, who anchors "The Source" tonight at the top of the next hour.

Also, CNN's Paula Reid, whose blockbuster reporting immediately preceded the Matt Gaetz announcement this afternoon.

Caitlin, first, tell us more about President-elect Trump's pick now for Attorney General Pam Bondi. How did he come to this decision?

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR AND CHIEF CORRESPONDENT: John, it just came hours after Trump had realized that he was going to have to make a new decision on that after Matt Gaetz had withdrawn his name as attorney general for his pick.

That came after a conversation that the two of them had this morning, regarding the fact that a lot of these Republican Senators who had been skeptical of this nomination from the beginning we're just not going to move.

[20:05:19]

That was clear even from the conversations that they were having on Capitol Hill. They can only afford to lose a handful of Republican senators for this vote.

And so, it's really just doing the math here that that happened. And immediately, John, that jumpstarted this process of who is going to replace him as the pick for attorney general because this is one of the most important roles to President-elect Donald Trump. He's been down here at Mar-a-Lago working on Treasury and an FBI potential director, what that was going to look like. And then today, this was thrown back in the mix.

Something that was certainly on their radar as they were, you know, we're watching what was happening on Capitol Hill. They were listening to the reaction of those Republican senators.

And so, today at Mar-a-Lago, Trump did sit down one-on-one, I'm told with Pam Bondi, they had a conversation. Obviously, he knows her well. She represented him on his first impeachment defense team. She spoke there in the well of the Senate. We heard from her. And so, she's no stranger to him. She is certainly a MAGA loyalist.

I was talking to one Republican tonight who was saying that she is more confirmable in their view than Matt Gaetz was simply because, you know, she is MAGA aligned. She has experience as the Attorney General of Florida. She's a loyalist to Donald Trump.

She is also I should note, aligned with Susie Wiles, his very powerful incoming chief-of-staff, so, she kind of checked all of those boxes that Trump wanted there.

Of course, the question is, how do Republican senators view Pam Bondi? It could be grating on a curb, John, now, what they've gone through for the last several days.

BERMAN: Yes, we will talk much more about that coming up. Kaitlan, just very quickly, Gaetz's decision to withdraw, what specifically did you learn about that that?

COLLINS: That essentially was the math. I mean, there were meetings behind closed doors with the Vice President-elect JD Vance that we were told went very well, they thought. But there were just several names that did not seem like they could move.

I mean, Senator Mitch McConnell, Lisa Murkowski, Susan Collins, these were people who even publicly were saying that they were very skeptical of the fact that they could even get there. They were just trying to hope to get to a hearing. So I think the writing was really just on the wall and they were doing the math, John.

BERMAN: Well, someone who may have put some of that writing on the wall. Paula Reid, you had this reporting which broke right all at the same time. Walk us through the tick-tock of your outreach to the Gaetz team. PAULA REID, CNN CHIEF LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Yes, lest anyone in Trump world think that the Bondi announcement would distract from this. Earlier today, our colleague Sarah Ferris and I reported that the woman, who was just 17 years old when she says she had sex with Gaetz, told the House Ethics Committee that she had a second, previously unreported sexual encounter with Gaetz that also involved another adult woman.

So we are talking about allegations about a threesome with a minor. Now, our sources tell us that this woman told the Ethics Committee that this occurred at a party in 2017, in Florida, the same party where she had the previously reported one-on-one sexual encounter with Gaetz on an air hockey table.

Now, Gaetz has denied any wrongdoing. The Justice Department investigated these allegations and did not charge him. The adult woman who has referenced by this witness has also denied having sex with a minor. But we reached out to Gaetz's camp about our new reporting, and while we were waiting for a statement about a minute before we were supposed to break this on air, he announced that he was withdrawing his nomination for attorney general.

BERMAN: So, do you have a sense of what it was about this second encounter that was deemed significant by Gaetz or by the Ethics Committee for that matter?

REID: Look, I think the significance here is that this suggests that this ethics report has a lot of information that is not public. John, I have covered these allegations into the former congressman for four years, and this is the first time I ever heard that there was not just one, but multiple alleged sexual encounters with a minor.

And just the other day, one of the lawmakers sort of shooed away one of our colleagues pressing about the ethics report in its release, saying look, you know what's in it. You've reported it all. That is clearly not true. And I think why this reporting is especially significant is because it shows exactly the type of information that the committee has that is not yet public.

BERMAN: It's such a great point. It's the new news during all this process that can be so damaging. And along those lines, Kaitlan, CNN obtained this police report which revealed new details from the sexual assault allegation against Defense Secretary pick Pete Hegseth, so, is the president-elect sticking by Hegseth tonight?

COLLINS: We haven't heard any indication otherwise yet, John. But obviously, this came out overnight, it's 22 pages. Hegseth has denied that this was a sexual assault, as the woman has clearly alleged here and you can read the entire police report.

I looked through all of it earlier. They said it was a consensual encounter. We know there is a paid settlement between the two of them. Hegseth, directed towards this woman. And so, really with Matt Gaetz withdrawing a lot of the attention on Capitol Hill, that was mainly directed at him, I think will now go and focus on Pete Hegseth's nomination. [20:10:13]

We've heard some Republican senators already raising questions about this given just the immense role that he would have if he is confirmed.

Now, some of them have been enthusiastic and said they are supporting him, but I think there are a few senators to watch for on this matter, especially people like Senator Joni Ernst, and how they are viewing this nomination. That's still an open question, but right now the Trump team has felt good about it so far.

But I do think that as we saw what happened today, things shift very quickly in this orbit as they are still trying to figure out other Cabinet picks as well.

BERMAN: Yes, especially when you find out new information during the process.

Paula Reid, Kaitlan Collins, thanks to both of you. I should say, Kaitlan's guest at nine for "The Source" will be Republican Senator Mike Rounds. It will be very interesting what he has to say.

All right, with us now, "View" co-host and CNN political commentator Ana Navarro, former Trump White House communications director Anthony Scaramucci, co-host of "The Rest is Politics," the US podcast, I should say, also, former Deputy Assistant Attorney General Elliot Williams and Republican strategist, Erin Perrine.

Ana, you're, the one person from Florida who has not been tapped to be part of the incoming Trump administration, but you know Pam Bondi.

ANA NAVARRO, CNN POLITICAL STRATEGIST: I know Pam Bondi very well. I don't want to cause her harm. Listen, Pam Bondi like many other Republicans, is a mainstream Republican who turned MAGA.

She was attorney general of Florida for eight years. I will tell you, she is not an ogre. She is not a jerk. She's not a person who purposely wants to come across as being you know, the kind of person that a Matt Gaetz wants to come across as being.

She has been an early loyalist of Donald Trump back in the 2016 primaries. She was a loyalist of him, even though Jeb Bush and Marco Rubio were running.

I think with Pam Bondi, he gets loyalty, which matters a lot to him and she hasn't committed statutory rape or been accused of it. She hasn't been accused of sexual assault. She hasn't sawed the head off a whale or stabbed a dead bear cub. So all in all, I'd say she's one of the better picks.

BERMAN: This is me not reacting to that at all.

Elliot, Pam Bondi as Ana said is a Trump loyalist. There's no question about that. Probably shares, I don't know, 95, 98 percent of the views that Matt Gaetz shares. So what does she mean for the Justice Department? And also, how will the confirmation process do you think be different? And I asked this to you and you've worked on confirmations before for people at the Justice Department.

ELLIOT WILLIAMS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, you know, a couple of things. How is she different than Matt Gaetz? Well, she by being formally a line level prosecutor and an elected state attorney general, she has at least the modicum of experience that we ought to expect out of someone who's going to be the attorney general of the United States. Someone who understands 'A' how to build prosecutions and 'B' has actually managed anything in their life. And that's sadly, John, the point we are at in our politics today.

Now, how will the confirmation go? I think that the biggest challenge for Pam Bondi is having, you know, I think you used the term election denialism in the beginning of the segment. You know, she has embraced baseless legal claims on behalf of the former president.

And I want to be clear, she is entitled to be a supporter. She's entitled to be MAGA. She's entitled to push the president's agenda whatever that may mean. But we don't want our attorney general pushing baseless legal claims, and she ought to be pressed on that in any -- certainly meetings with senators that she will have in the coming weeks.

But also if there is a hearing, as there likely will be, that is probably the main legal question, she ought to be questioned, ought to be pushed on.

BERMAN: You know, Erin Perrine, you heard Kaitlan Collins say it before, all of our reporters on Capitol Hill basically saying that Republicans up there are relieved they're just like, you know, a cloud has been lifted. They feel that Pam Bondi is a much better choice than Gaetz, a solid choice, they feel better about her confirmation. Do you agree?

ERIN PERRINE, FORMER DIRECTOR OF PRESS COMMUNICATIONS, TRUMP 2020 CAMPAIGN. I think Republicans feel much better about Pam Bondi's confirmation chances than they do about Matt Gaetz. And I think Speaker Johnson is probably excited that he doesn't have another House member getting scooped up with such a thin majority going into the next Congress.

Pam has the experience and should be able to handle a confirmation process well. This is almost a double-edged sword, though, with which you get for the Trump team. She has a lot of footage out there. She's taken a lot of political positions, and she's been very relevant in the news.

So, that makes her a good messenger. She knows how to handle a battle, not only as a prosecutor, but being able to litigate in the court of public opinion as well.

But that's going to be tough because all of that sound now comes back and she will be pushed on having taken political positions previously going into the Department of Justice through the nomination process.

BERMAN: You know, Anthony, great to see you, first of all. You posted on X today, "I don't like this. I feel that Matt Gaetz is competing with me and may have turned into a unit of time. Matt, stay in your lane." So, he didn't make a Scaramucci.

[20:15:23]

ANTHONY SCARAMUCCI, FORMER TRUMP WHITE HOUSE COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR: No, he made it eight out of those 11 days, but technically, it wasn't in the job. But still, you know, come on, Matt, back up. Okay, I own that territory, okay.

But listen, you know, I don't want to hurt Pam Bondi either. You know, Ana is a hundred percent correct. I know her a long time. And she worked with a lot of moderate Republicans. She's also somebody that may say what Trump wants to hear, but she's not necessarily going to do what Trump wants done because she's not a rules breaker.

She understands the legal system and she understands the processes in place to preserve justice. And so, she's not going to want to take a wrecking ball with that. And so, she'll probably get confirmed and I think that would be a good pick on a relative basis and so I wish her well.

But now that I've said that, me and Ana are probably torpedoing her, you know, because of our opinions of Donald Trump.

NAVARRO: I don't think she's going to have any trouble. I think, I mean, she's going to get pressed and she's going to be asked about things like election denialism but most Americans just voted for a guy who denied that he lost the election for four years. So, she is consistent with that.

When she was Florida attorney general, she did things like lead lawsuits defending the ban against gay marriage in Florida. She did things like lead lawsuits on behalf of other states and joined other states against the ACA, against Obamacare back then.

So, Pam started changing philosophically. I would say early, which is why she gets high marks from MAGA for being an early loyalist. But she also kind of walks that fine line where establishment Republicans also think, you know, out of everything we can get she's probably the best choice we have.

BERMAN: All right, we're going to take a quick break. Everyone stick around. We're going to focus more on the Pete Hegseth Defense Secretary nomination and the police report, which has already cast a shadow on it.

And later, what began as a tragedy capsized kayak missing father and all becomes a travesty and more as the man surfaces a continent away.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:22:02] BERMAN: All right, we're talking tonight about Matt Gaetz backing away from a fight to become the next attorney general. Pam Bondi becoming the pick to be the next attorney general and the sexual assault allegations against Pete Hegseth, potentially, we'll see keeping him from becoming the next Secretary of Defense.

Perspective now on all of it from former Illinois Republican congressman, Adam Kinzinger. Thanks so much for being with us. What's your reaction to Pam Bondi as Trump's choice to be the next attorney general?

ADAM KINZINGER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I mean, better than Gaetz. I mean, you know, a bag filled with peanut butter would be better than Gaetz. So, you know, it's a low bar but let's keep in mind an interesting thing.

So in 2013, I think it was Pam Bondi was considering joining a lawsuit against Trump University. And then Donald Trump gave her $25,000.00 as a campaign donation and she backed out of that lawsuit. So that's an interesting thing. But look she will probably be approved by the Senate and go on to be attorney general.

Trump has a right to pick who he wants generally, unless it's Matt Gaetz and I think she probably fits into that category.

BERMAN: So the implosion of Matt Gaetz, do you think that's good news or bad news for Pete Hegseth because look if there was a share of the sex scandal headline, Gaetz was occupying more of it.

Now, though, there's this detailed graphic police report about Pete Hegseth.

KINZINGER: It's definitely bad for Pete for a couple reasons. Like you said, Gaetz was taking all the oxygen out of the room. We only have so many brain bytes to speak about these things. And so he was getting most of those.

But also, you know, look, it's not uncommon for a nominee for a Cabinet position to get tanked during that process.

Matt Gaetz did not get tanked during that process. He actually withdrew voluntarily. So now all the focus is going to be on Pete and maybe a little Tulsi Gabbard just kind of her policies and I think there's a better chance now that that Hegseth is not actually approved by the Senate than it was before, before Gaetz would have been the sacrificial lamb.

BERMAN: So, you know, you heard Pete Hegseth today. He said on Capitol Hill of the police report he said: "The matter was fully investigated I was completely cleared. And that's where I'm going to leave it.

Again, we should note he wasn't charged. He also wasn't cleared. But what does your gut tell you about where Republicans will go with this?

KINZINGER: Yes, I mean, the vast majority of Republicans will do whatever Donald Trump wants, and he wants it to be Pete Hegseth. Now, the question is, there's a few Republicans in the Senate, particularly, that don't necessarily play that game. I think Mitch McConnell, Bill Cassidy some others, you know, that may have a real problem with it.

Look, he is going to run, obviously, the most lethal but one of the biggest, if actually the biggest government bureaucracy that exists. And, you know, in charge of our military members who we take very seriously.

So, I think there's going to be some senators that actually kind of look at this very critically. And I would say it's about a 50/50 chance he gets approved right now, maybe a little better than 50/50 just because everybody is super into Donald Trump. So, we'll see what happens.

BERMAN: So, this goes you think to the confirmation process with the hearings. Do you think it will feel like the like a Brett Kavanaugh confirmation process? You know, Republican Senator Bill Hagerty actually brought up the Kavanaugh hearings today.

[20:25:20]

KINZINGER: Yes, I mean, I think it's going to be like way more intense because if you think about it again, yes, Hegseth was not charged with that. He also wasn't exonerated, as you mentioned.

But the military has had an issue with sexual assault that they've been trying to address for a number of years. And now you're putting a guy that's potentially guilty of that in charge of the Pentagon.

And so, I think that the hearings are going to be pretty brutal for him and, you know, we'll see what comes out of that. Keep in mind, if there was any other potential victims of Hegseth, I'm not saying there are, but if there were they may come out in the next couple of months. And so, this could get pretty interesting.

Again, and it should be looked at very hard because again, this is the military we are talking about, not some small government bureaucracy, but probably the most important function of the federal government and certainly the most lethal.

BERMAN: All right, Adam Kinzinger, great to see you. Thank you very much.

KINZINGER: Yes, you bet.

BERMAN: All right, back now with our panel.

Ana, let me just take another step back here. How much political capital do you think that Donald Trump spent on Matt Gaetz? Do you think he used any up now as all these other questions still remain?

NAVARRO: Certainly a lot less political capital than if there had actually been a hearing. Look, I'm cautiously impressed, grateful to the Republican senators that stood up against this. I shouldn't be grateful because it shouldn't take a lot of courage to stand up against somebody that was facing the allegations the ethics reports, all of the new information that came out against Matt Gaetz. But in this day and age and in Trump era, it does take courage.

I hope that those same Senators that the John Cornyns, the Mitch McConnells, I hope the or the Susan Collins, the Lisa Murkowskis, I hope they find their voice and their backbone and they perform their duty of advising and consenting in all of the appointments, but particularly the ones involving intelligence particularly the ones involving the military.

As Adam just said, we all remember the tailhook scandal that rocked the Department of Defense, and it's something that they have been wrestling with sexual assault and sexual harassment in the military. It would be a terrible thing to do.

BERMAN: All right one last question on Gaetz then I want to move fully on to Hegseth.

And, Erin, let me just put this to you. Donald Trump didn't have to pick Matt Gaetz. I mean, the Pam Bondi, you know nomination or announcement of the nomination just confirms there are a lot of other MAGA-ish lawyers out there who could run the Justice Department, but he chose the guy. He did choose the guy for whom there are these sexual misconduct allegations including accusations of sex with a minor. He did that.

So what does that tell you? And what do you think the lasting impact would be?

PERRINE: I think what it tells you is that the system works in the United States Senate. There's all this fear mongering about whether or not the Republic would fall and democracy would crumble with Donald Trump at the helm and before he's even sworn in we are seeing the Senate do its job of advice and consent.

Take the meetings. Give Donald Trump the opportunity to put forward whomever he would like for positions, and then they have the conversation with Senators and Senators said, no, thank you.

The math in the Senate is unforgiving. I don't think Donald Trump lost any political capital today and I hope the American people can all realize the country will continue to work and thrive in its normal functioning fashion like it did before with Donald Trump in the White House.

BERMAN: All right, Anthony, the Hegseth nomination, do you think that Hegseth or the president-elect, how do you think they feel about the graphic details of this police report coming to light during a confirmation hearing? What do you think that will be like?

SCARAMUCCI: So, I want to fully disclose that I worked with Pete. I had a good relationship with Pete, but I think Ana is on to something. I think the Republicans, this is sort of Season Two Apprentice White House edition.

I think the Republicans have shape shifted a little bit here and are ready for Donald Trump.

Also remember, if Donald Trump is a lame duck, he's only got one more credible election ahead and that's the midterms. And I think they're going to push back. And I think if the reports are true, and I'm not saying they are it'll be up to the Senate to figure that out I think this is as bad as Gaetz, so I don't agree with Adam. I think this is less than 50 percent that he gets through. And I think the Republicans are taking a tact in the Senate that is very different than the Trump transition team thought they would or frankly people like us here speaking about it.

BERMAN: So, Elliot, the police report, in a normal vetting process, and I know this isn't a normal vetting process. What red flags might that have set off? And, you know, the fact -- and also I want you to make clear on this, and you're a great person --

ELLIOT WILLIAMS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Yes.

BERMAN: -- to explain this. The difference between police deciding not to press charges and police or any law enforcement agency clearing them and --

WILLIAMS: Right.

BERMAN: -- frankly, the standard for a confirmation.

WILLIAMS: Right. Most importantly, it -- look, it's a very high bar to certainly have charges brought against you. You know, prosecutors won't move forward unless they think they can prove something beyond a reasonable doubt.

You know, even arresting someone comes at a higher bar, John, then the bar for giving someone a job, and I think we're getting lost in the fact that the mere fact that law enforcement did not proceed with charges somehow completely exonerates the person, either in terms of moral judgments that can be made about them, but also, more importantly, about whether they ought to get a high government job.

Now, you know, I guess the broader question of what red flags might it set off certainly for confirmation, well, all of it, John, because the most important question is, how will the Senate receive this information?

He will have to take the stand at a confirmation hearing and answer detailed questions about all of this in front of all of the senators and, frankly, with the American people watching. You know, it's important that you noted the Brett Kavanaugh almost similarity.

The difference there is that you're talking about allegations that are decades old. And so this is a much worse fight, I think, brewing for this nominee than even for Brett Kavanaugh, which was such captivating news for a long time.

ANA NAVARRO, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: By the way, that Matt Gaetz is not going to be attorney general does not mean that Donald Trump is through with Matt Gaetz, right? There's a ton of things he could appoint him to in the White House that don't require Senate confirmation. So to be determined.

BERMAN: There's also a whole issue of Matt Gaetz. Could he end up being a congressman in the next Congress? Also all of this TBD, a whole other episode of this broadcast and many others.

Everyone, thank you very much.

Next our David Culver talks to ranchers and residents in Arizona about their support for the more aggressive immigration stance the president-elect has promised.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:36:37]

BERMAN: All right, sources involved with the Trump transition tell CNN they have identified an aggressive strategy to persuade Latin American countries to take back deported migrants of what they said would be a large scale. Quote, "Everything is on the table," said one source, including the possibility of stiff consequences for those countries that do not comply.

So David Culver has more from along the border in Arizona.

(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)

DAVID CULVER, CNN SENIOR U.S. NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): More than 30 miles north of the U.S.-Mexico border.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're going to go run that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Absolutely not. I just had him at 85, so we're going to talk.

CULVER (voice-over): Arizona deputies close in on a suspected migrant smuggler. This SUV going 40 miles over the speed limit.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get back in the car. Now!

CULVER (voice-over): After a quick search though, no migrants found. They let the driver go with a reckless driving ticket and move on to the next, running down cars like this all day. It's part of the stepped up search efforts for cartel backed drivers.

On average, deputies tell us they bust two to three vehicles a day carrying migrants or drugs here.

SHERIFF MARK DANNELS, COCHISE COUNTY, ARIZONA: This is a really hot spot. So the cars that come down from Phoenix, take the three-hour journey, pull on this highway, pull into a spot in here, hit the horn and they'll pop out of the brush.

CULVER (voice-over): Sheriff Mark Dannels tells most smugglers are U.S. citizens paid by Mexican cartels.

DANNELS: We've got to get back engaged into what the cartel's all about. A ruthless, murderous gang. And number two, they have no respect for this country.

JIM CHILTON, OWNER, CHILTON RANCH: They need to secure the border at the border.

CULVER (voice-over): Jim and Sue Chilton tell me the cartels use their ranch as a crossing ground.

J. CHILTON: The idea that people coming through here, through my ranch, are coming into poison our people is very, very objectionable to me.

SUE CHILTON, OWNER, CHILTON RANCH: You can see they're all carrying backpacks. Many of them are identical.

CULVER (voice-over): They show me about two hours of surveillance footage collected from just five cameras on their 50,000 acres in Aravaca.

CULVER: They all look like they're wearing fatigues, camouflage. I mean, it almost looks like a military operation.

J. CHILTON: Over 3,000 people coming to my ranch in the last three and a half, four years are in the country. We have no idea who they are. They're what's called gotaways.

CULVER (voice-over): The Chilton say the surging gotaways started when President Biden took office and halted construction of the border wall. Sue points to the half mile gap on their ranch that she calls the door.

S. CHILTON: Obviously, if you leave your door standing open in your house, where do people come in?

CULVER: The open --

S. CHILTON: The door, right?

CULVER: Right.

S. CHILTON: OK.

J. CHILTON: Federal government's warning us that there are bad people coming through here.

CULVER (voice-over): Jim says he's come face to face with them.

J. CHILTON: About 20 guys ran across the road and up that hill to going northwest and the guy in front appeared to have a AK-47.

CULVER: Do you carry any (INAUDIBLE)?

J. CHILTON: I always have a weapon, David. Here's my pistol. You have a weapon, people go the other way.

CULVER (voice-over): We soon learn Jim isn't the only one armed in these parts. TIM FOLEY, ARIZONA BORDER RECON: You name it, I've been called it.

CULVER (voice-over): Some called him fully a vigilante. He says his self-funded group, Arizona Border Recon, is here to deter the cartels.

FOLEY: It's a game of chess, or whack a mole.

CULVER: Who's winning?

FOLEY: Them.

[20:40:03]

CULVER (voice-over): Volunteers from across the U.S. joined Foley in his unofficial and (technical difficulty).

CULVER: (Technical difficulty) look at where the border wall ends, what goes through your mind?

J. CHILTON: Why did it end? Why wasn't it finished? But I'll guarantee you that President Trump is going to finish it and secure the border.

CULVER (voice-over): About 50 miles east of the Chilton's Ranch, Nogales businessman, Jaime Chamberlain, knows the economic importance of the border. His produce import company relies on the port of entry here.

JAIME CHAMBERLAIN, PRESIDENT, CHAMBERLAIN DISTRIBUTING, INC. Any time that you take away those resources, whether it's personnel or whether it's funding for Border Patrol, you are weakening those ports of entry.

CULVER (voice-over): But he believes the economy and national security are about to improve.

CHAMBERLAIN: I think the new administration has made it clear that they're going to go after criminals first.

CULVER: Are you nervous with President Trump coming in? Do you have uneasiness about it?

RAFAEL, MEXICAN IMMIGRANT: Yes. It's different, you know. Trump is different, so. But I respect him too, you know.

CULVER (voice-over): Along the border wall, we meet Rafael, celebrating his 34th birthday with his mom and son visiting from the other side. A decade after crossing illegally, he is still undocumented, working on a construction site with a team of about 10.

CULVER: How many of them would you say are undocumented?

RAFAEL: Like 10, 10 --

CULVER: Like, everybody?

RAFAEL: Yes. CULVER (voice-over): But Cochise County deputies say they aren't focused on migrants like Rafael. They want the cartel fueled smugglers who operate day and night.

DEPUTY DAN BRENNAN, COCHISE COUNTY SHERIFF'S INTERDICTION TEAM: I can kind of safely assume that I think activity will pick up in the coming days until the inauguration.

CULVER: And that's just the cartels basically saying, ten thousand times.

BRENNAN: Hey, let's get it. You know, we're here to make money. Let's get it while we can.

(END VIDEO TAPE)

BERMAN: And David Culver joins us now. David, the police and Border Patrol are obviously going to play a part in any mass deportation strategy the president-elect tries to carry out. Did you get a sense of exactly what role they expect to play in all this?

CULVER (on-camera): Yes. So they're still trying to figure that out actually, John. And you're right, they do expect to play some sort of role. What the local sheriff there in Cochise County was telling me though is while he's prepared to go forward, even with enforcing some immigration law as Proposition 314 just passed in Arizona and allows him essentially to enforce some of the immigration law, he's not sure he is got the infrastructure, the personnel, even the resources financially to do that just yet.

So he's still at a loss as to how that's going to go forward. I also asked a lot of the folks down there about President Trump's intentions to potentially deploy the military to the border. You've got a lot of different opinions about this, John.

You've got the rancher, Mr. Chilton, who you saw there. He's all for it. Despite being a Democrat for many years, he fully supports Trump, including when it comes to putting the military there. Law enforcement, a bit uneasy about this. They hope cooperation and coordination can be in place if that's to happen.

The vigilante who you saw there, Tim Foley, very skeptical about the military. While he supports President Trump, he says the military has been deployed in places before, he's referring to the National Guard, says it's been ineffective. So as he sees it, it would not work.

So you've got folks who are seemingly all on the same side when it comes to securing the border, stakeholders with very different opinions, which shows you just how nuanced this all is.

BERMAN: Yes, a little more complicated than you might expect. Terrific work.

David Culver, thank you so much for being with us.

Up next, a major escalation in Russia's war on Ukraine. What Vladimir Putin is saying about the missile Russia fired on Ukraine today.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:48:09]

BERMAN: President Vladimir Putin says Russia hit Ukraine with a new mid-range ballistic missile. Our Nick Paton Walsh has the details and what this means for the escalating war.

(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)

NICK PATON WALSH, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: (voice-over): A familiar horror, but a quite different sight on Ukraine's skyline. Multiple projectiles at 5:00 a.m., apparently from one missile hitting an industrial site in Dnipro city. Suggesting, as Ukraine reported, Russia had launched a new type of ballistic missile, perhaps intercontinental, a stark escalation.

PRES. VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, UKRAINE (through translation): Today, our crazy neighbor has once again shown who he really is, and how he despises dignity, freedom, and human life in general, and how afraid he is. He is also so afraid that he is already using new missiles.

PATON WALSH (voice-over): CNN obtained these exclusive images of the missile debris. Ukrainian experts pouring over the pieces to determine what this new threat is. Little dispute, it was something new. The Kremlin kept silent during the day, bar this bizarre episode at a Foreign Ministry briefing that spoke volumes.

MARIA ZAKHAROVA, SPOKESPERSON, RUSSIA FOREIGN MINISTRY (through translation): Hello.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translation): Masha?

ZAKHAROVA (through translation): Yes. I'm having a briefing.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translation): On Yuzhmash, the ballistic missile strike, which the Westerners started talking about, we are not commenting at all.

ZAKHAROVA (through translation): Yes, OK. Thank you.

PATON WALSH (voice-over): Perhaps a trailer for Russian President Vladimir Putin's big reveal. He said the missile was a new hypersonic non-nuclear device called the Hazelnut.

There are no means to counter such weapons today, he said.

VLADIMIR PUTIN, RUSSIAN PRESIDENT (through translation): The missiles strike targets at speeds of 10 mark. That's 2.5 to 3 kilometers per second. The modern air defense system available worldwide and the U.S. developed missile defense systems in Europe cannot intercept such missiles. This is impossible.

[20:50:00] He framed the strike as a response to American and British supplied missiles, ATACMS and storm shadows slamming into Russia proper over the last 72 hours.

PUTIN (through translation): We consider ourselves entitled to use our weapons against the military objects of those countries that allow their weapons to be used against our objects. And in the event of an escalation of aggressive actions, we will respond just as decisively and in kind.

PATON WALSH (voice-over): Yet Kyiv was yet more on edge when the sirens sounded Thursday afternoon. A U.S. official insisted Russia had few of these new experimental missiles and it had warned allies about the strike. It's unclear if that led to its embassy shutting suddenly a day earlier, citing fears of an aerial assault.

Russia, sending a clear signal, but now not with a test like this. In 48 hours, it's made a nuanced change to its nuclear doctrine, and launched a new missile. Total silence so far from Western leaders, but the blast was heard across Ukraine.

(END VIDEO TAPE)

PATON WALSH (on-camera): John, whatever it turns out, the weapon used over Dnipro indeed was, and there is still some uncertainty, frankly. The Russians are trying to project some element of technological prowess to say that they're still a military superpower that hasn't yet exhausted its arsenal, and there may be new horrific surprises ahead for Ukraine. Even 1,002 days into this war.

At the same time, Western officials perhaps know something that they want to say, some things that they don't want to say, and also maybe some things that they don't know about this new device. But the scenes we saw in the skyline over the Dnipro, they're new, they look different.

And they're making many Ukrainians feel concerned that when Vladimir Putin says these new missiles can get through any kind of air defences, particularly the ones that protect Kyiv every night, he may not be bluffing. John?

BERMAN: New horrific surprises. Chilling.

Nick Paton Walsh, thank you very much.

Coming up, the Wisconsin kayaker who authorities say faked his own death and fled the country is now talking to authorities. He says he is safe, but where? Details ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:56:45]

BERMAN: The Wisconsin kayaker accused of faking his death and leaving his family after communicating with a woman from Uzbekistan has been located. He's somewhere in Eastern Europe, but whether he will ever come home to his wife and kids or face the music for what has been a costly and emotional search is unclear.

Whitney Wild has the story.

(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)

RYAN BORGWARDT, WISCONSIN KAYAKER: Good evening. It's Ryan Borgwardt. I'm in my apartment. I am safe, secure, no problem.

WHITNEY WILD, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Ryan Borgwardt speaking barely above a whisper in this video, he says, was recorded November 11th. These are his first comments since disappearing in August. Police now believe the husband and father of three is alive and living in Eastern Europe with no plans to come back to the U.S.

Though Green Lake, Wisconsin Sheriff Mark Podoll says Borgwardt talks to investigators regularly.

SHERIFF MARK PODOLL, GREEN LAKE COUNTY: Our biggest concern that we had was that he was safe and well. We asked him a number of questions that pertained to him and his family that he would only know. And then we asked him for a video of himself.

WILD (voice-over): The search for Borgwardt began this summer after he failed to return home from a day of kayaking and fishing. Law enforcement found his capsized kayak, car, and other belongings, but no trace of him.

PODOLL: While we might have stopped the search on Green Lake, that didn't stop our search continuing to look for life.

WILD (voice-over): The Green Lake County Sheriff now says he planned an elaborate escape. Borgwardt told investigators he paddled his kayak and a child sized boat out into the lake, overturned the kayak and dumped his phone in the water, paddled the inflatable boat to shore, got on an e bike and rode through the night to Madison.

There, he boarded a bus, went on to Detroit, and eventually crossed into Canada and hopped on a plane to Europe.

PODOLL: In our communications, we are expressing the importance of his decision to return home, clean up the mess that he has created.

WILD (voice-over): A digital forensic search of Borgwardt's laptop revealed that he replaced the hard drive and cleared his browser history on the day of the disappearance. Podoll says investigators found that the 44-year-old moved funds to a foreign bank, changed his email, communicated with a woman in Uzbekistan, purchased airline cards, and took out a $375,000 life insurance policy in January.

Now that Borgwardt has been found alive, law enforcement is laying out potential charges.

PODOLL: The information that the Green Lake County has at this point leads us to an obstructing charge.

(END VIDEO TAPE)

BERMAN: All right, Whitney Wild joins us now. A lot going on here, Whitney. What are police saying about other possible charges here?

WILD (on-camera): Well, they're declining to give many more details beyond saying that there's a potential obstruction charge here. They were reluctant to go into any potential federal charges. But they did say that there could be some restitution here, John.

And when you think about how long it took them to do this search, it was six months. They were using high-end equipment. It was a lot of overtime. I mean they are thinking this could be between $35,000 and $40,000 at least. And that doesn't even include the cost that a non- profit incurred when it tried to him search for him in Green Lake, which by the way, is the deepest lake in Wisconsin, which police say is why he chose that particular location.

So, you know, John, there are many more open questions here. And what they keep saying is that it is very clear he's reluctant to come back to the U.S. And so they're continuing to push on his heartstrings. We'll see if that works to bring him home, John.

BERMAN: Sent a lot of people in a wild goose chase.

Whitney Wild, thank you very much.

The news continues. The Source with Kaitlan Collins starts now.