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Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees

Iranian-Made Russian Drones Strike Kyiv; Special Counsel Drops Two Major Cases Against Trump; Interview with Rep. Daniel Goldman (D- NY); Trump Lawyers Investigate Top Trump Aide; Menendez Brothers Attend First Joint Hearing In 28 Years; PA Seniors Who Supported Harris Talk About Trump's Win; Macy's Employee Hid Millions In Expenses, Earnings Report Delayed. Aired 8-9p ET

Aired November 25, 2024 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

NICK WATT, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Now, dramas, the documentaries, social media have all reignited interest in this case to such a degree that there had to be a lottery today for seats in the public gallery. Many of the people in that line weren't even born when this crime took place or the trial took place.

Inside, Kitty Menendez's 93-year-old sister, Joan said that she is distraught, that her sister knew and did nothing and that no children should live in fear of being raped by their father -- Erin.

ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: Nick, thank you very much. And thanks so much to all of you for joining us. AC360 starts now.

[20:00:39]

JOHN BERMAN, CNN HOST: Tonight on 360, the Trump prosecutions are over. Now, will Trump's prosecution soon begin? With the federal cases against the president-elect now officially dismissed, we will look at the president-elect's idea of justice.

Plus, details tonight of an investigation already underway by team Trump into one of his own top aides after allegations of a pay-to-play scheme.

And later, the Menendez brothers back in court after nearly 30 years. We will have the latest on their attempts to get a new sentence for the murder of their parents.

Good evening, John Berman, in for Anderson.

We do start with breaking news though out of Ukraine's capital, Kyiv's mayor reports a wave of Iranian-made Russian drones attacking the city from multiple directions. Oren Liebermann is at the Pentagon with the latest.

Oren, what can you tell us about this attack?

OREN LIEBERMANN, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT : John, this looks like another large scale attack by Iranian-made Shahed drones, not only in the capital of Kyiv, but it looks like air raid sirens going off across the country. We saw a similar large scale attack last night. Ukraine says they intercepted 50 out of 73 of these drones.

Now, that's an impressive number but we have repeatedly seen the damage, the destruction Russia is able to cause when even a few of these drones get through, and let's not forget, John, this isn't even the most powerful weapon Russia has used recently, not even close. It was just last week that for the first time Russia launched an intermediate range ballistic missile that had multiple warheads against the city of Dnipro.

So, Russia still unleashing its full arsenal, not daunted at all by what we've seen Ukraine carry out with some of its own advanced weaponry over the course of the past couple of days.

BERMAN: Well, let's talk more about that, because the White House confirmed publicly today that Ukraine is using US supplied ATACMS missiles inside Russia's Kursk region. So, is this drone attack connected perhaps to the Ukrainians using these longer range weapons on Russian soil?

LIEBERMANN: Russia may try to draw that line and say this is their reason for carrying out these drone attacks, but we have seen too many of these aerial attacks coming from Russia to say, yes, of course, this is the only reason they carried out the attack.

Russia has shown that it will keep attacking and this is more of that. Ukraine able to fight back now with long range US-made ATACMS missiles. As you pointed out, the National Security Council in what appears to be the first public acknowledgment of the use of these, says they have been used in the Kursk region last week, eight of these ATACMS missiles were launched against an ammunition depot, a number of those hitting their target with reports of secondary explosions.

We've also seen more attacks on the Kursk region. That's where Ukraine is holding Russian territory after its own counteroffensive. So more attacks there tonight. It's unclear if they used ATACMS missiles, but they have the greenlight from the US now.

What's worth noticing, John, is they don't have a lot of these. So every time you see one of these used, it is clearly an important target.

BERMAN: All right, Oren Liebermann, thank you. We will monitor these attacks on Kyiv and other Ukrainian cities throughout the night.

Now, to the president-elect and his allies, who are celebrating a victory secured on election day and made official today.

Special Counsel Jack Smith dropped both federal cases against the former president. Those are the election subversion and the classified documents cases. In a new filing, Smith cited long standing Justice Department policy against prosecuting presidents: "Accordingly, the Department's position is that the constitution requires that this case be dismissed before the defendant is inaugurated."

Smith made clear that this decision had nothing to do with the strength of the cases. Three times he mentioned the merits of the prosecution. At one point, speaking about the January 6th case, he wrote: "The merits of the defendant's prosecution has not changed." And again, speaking broadly at the very end, he wrote, "This outcome is not based on the merits or strength of the case against the defendant."

This is how we describe the January 6th case, when he brought the charges last year.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN SMITH, SPECIAL COUNSEL: The attack on our Nation's Capitol on January 6th, 2021, was an unprecedented assault on the seat of American democracy. It's described in the indictment. It was fueled by lies, lies by the defendant, targeted at obstructing a bedrock function of the US government. The nation's process of collecting, counting and certifying the results of the presidential election.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[20:05:03]

BERMAN: Smith is expected to release a final report on both investigations. He and the federal judge who later granted the dismissal left open a narrow window to revisit the cases once Trump is out of office, we'll see.

But today, the president-elect ran a victory lap on social media. He said of this and the other legal issues he has faced, "It was a political hijacking, and a low point in the history of our country that such a thing could have happened, and yet, I persevered, against all odds, and WON. Make America Great Again."

The question now is whether the end of one series of prosecution signals the beginning of more under the next administration. On the campaign trail, the president-elect threatened both the president and vice-president with prosecution. He called other opponents the 'enemy within' some he said were guilty of treason.

And this is what his pick for attorney general said last year, weeks after the January 6th indictment.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PAM BONDI, TRUMP PICK FOR ATTORNEY GENERAL: When Republicans take back the White House and we will be back in there in 18 months or less. You know what's going to happen. The Department of Justice, the prosecutors, will be prosecuted, the bad ones, the investigators will be investigated.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: All right with us now, Democratic Congressman Daniel Goldman, he sits on the Oversight and Accountability Committee and was Democratic counsel during the returning president's first impeachment.

Congressman, thanks so much for being with us. You said earlier today this shows that Donald Trump is above the law. How so?

REP. DANIEL GOLDMAN (D-NY): Well, no one else would have their case dismissed based on nothing related to the merits. Donald Trump is simply evading accountability because he won the presidential election and there's a Department of Justice policy that has never been vetted, that has never been approved, or even challenged in front of a court that prohibits prosecuting a sitting president.

Now, there are valid reasons for it. I could come up with other valid reasons against it, but that is the Department of Justice policy. And I think a big takeaway here, John, is that Jack Smith the special counsel, followed Department of Justice policy just as he has done his entire time as special counsel.

There is absolutely nothing supporting all of these allegations of a politicized prosecution. The fact of the matter is, this investigation began long before Donald Trump ran for presidency. It frankly should have begun even earlier. And it alleges in that indictment some very, very serious crimes that he was not exonerated of. He just got lucky because of this DOJ policy.

BERMAN: Congressman, in an ironic way, did Jack Smith empower Donald Trump, even more after January 20th? It was because of the Jack Smith prosecution that the Supreme Court made its immunity ruling which basically says the president is more or less immune.

GOLDMAN: That is true. And it certainly was a surprise opinion. I think even to Donald Trump's lawyers. I think it was a real travesty of justice, the notion that the president could effectively commit bribery in office, as it related to an official act and would be immune from that. That seems completely outside our rule of law.

Certainly the criminal justice system that I worked in for ten years. But there's no question that the combination of the Supreme Court taking an exceedingly long time to decide that case ruling as it did requiring the special counsel to go back through the indictment, take out evidence that it thought related to official acts, combined with the fact that Merrick Garland started this investigation a year or two late, means that Donald Trump was once again able to run out the clock.

BERMAN: Well, combined also with the election, right? I mean, the American people are no small part of this too, aren't they?

GOLDMAN: No that's of course -- that's absolutely accurate. And I would argue that the American people did not vote Donald Trump in to subvert our democracy, to undermine our Constitution. They voted, at least according to the exit polls because there's an affordability crisis in this country and they believed that Donald Trump would help the middle class.

I have strong, strong reservations that he will do that. But that's what he was elected on. He was not elected to go after his enemies. He was not elected to put in incompetent unqualified Cabinet officials who will just be his political loyalists and will turn the executive branch into Donald Trump's political and personal fiefdom. That's not what he was elected for, but that does appear to be how he views the job if you're judging by a number of his cabinet picks.

BERMAN: All right, talk more about that. What do you anticipate from this new Justice Department and from the attorney general, apparently, nominee Pam Bondi?

[20:10:04]

GOLDMAN: Well, I think that there is a lot of bluster there. I think Pam Bondi knows that to actually put together a case with admissible evidence that would get an indictment in front of a grand jury is much harder to do than simply investigate the investigators.

But there's no question for the Department of Justice could initiate investigations that would -- of Jack Smith or others that would severely hamper them financially and they can use the Department of Justice as a weapon to get retribution against the investigators to financially bankrupt them. And certainly can do that against anyone in the executive branch who they consider to be the 'enemy within'.

I think Donald Trump should tread very carefully on those lines, because he's going to quickly find out that the American people, and I hope the Republican members of the Senate and Congress will stand up to that kind of that anti-constitutional conduct that is not what he was elected for.

BERMAN: All right, Congressman Dan Goldman, appreciate seeing you. Thanks for coming in.

GOLDMAN: Thank you.

BERMAN: All right, perspective now from former federal prosecutor Jeffrey Toobin, Republican strategist, Ana Navarro and Republican media consultant and strategist, Brad Todd.

All right, Jeff, how serious or just remind people how serious were these alleged crimes and the fact now that there is no accountability, there will be no accountability for them? How big of a deal is that?

JEFFREY TOOBIN, AUTHOR AND FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: If he had been convicted, let's say, these would have been mandatory long prison sentences. Under the federal sentencing guidelines, if he had been convicted in the January 6th case and in the Mar-a-Lago classified documents case, there would have been, you know, very long prison terms associated with that.

The magnitude of Trump's victory here is so enormous. I mean and remember, this goes back to the Mueller investigation. He has beaten all of these cases. Obviously, the congressman, we are going to debate for generations whether this was a good thing or a bad thing. But as a factual thing, the degree of his victory is really extraordinary.

BERMAN: And do you agree with Dan or Congressman Goldman right there that that Trump will try to take retribution? TOOBIN: Absolutely, you know, one of the things, you know, it's like when Donald Trump said, I'm going to appoint Supreme Court justices who are going to overturn Roe v. Wade. People said, oh, no, that's just him talking. That's bluster. No, this is what he's going to do. He feels more passionately about this than he does about tariffs.

And I think you know, there is going to be an investigation. Based on what I know of criminal law, there is no basis for an investigation there will not be charges as a result. But can he issue grand jury subpoenas? Can he force people to hire lawyers? Can he get press attention to attacking these people? Absolutely.

BERMAN: So, Ana Navarro, as our resident expert on all officials from Florida joining the administration. You know, Pam Bondi.

ANA NAVARRO, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I do.

BERMAN: Who Trump says, he wants to be attorney general. Do you think -- how high do you think this is on her to-do list right now, prosecuting people?

NAVARRO: I don't know I have -- listen, I know Pam Bondi fairly well. We spent a lot of time together when she was attorney general of Florida. It's been a minute and people have changed. Donald Trump has changed a lot of people, certainly.

When she was attorney general of Florida, first she was, you know, she was a prosecutor for decades. And when she was attorney general of Florida, she focused on issues -- on issues like the opioid crisis, on issues like fighting Medicare fraud, on issues like consumer protection.

I hope that the same Pam Bondi shows up at DOJ and pushes back on Trump. I have no doubt that Trump is going to try to seek retribution. He told us that. When Donald Trump says something, I take him at his word. When he says that he's going to seek revenge and retribution. I take him at his word.

The congressman was saying people didn't elect him for that, people didn't vote for that. Listen the people that he's naming to his Cabinet have pretty much been around him the entire time. The things that he is doing, whether its tariffs, whether its immigration, whether its retribution. He has been saying he will do.

Now, you know, I would say to you that this is all the result of the election. The American electorate, those who voted for Donald Trump and made him president-elect pardoned Donald Trump in the process. And I also think we need to take a look at how long it took Merrick Garland to appoint Jack Smith, right?

It took him, what, almost two years to get this done. But for that, it could have been a very different result today.

TOOBIN: This case could have gone to trial if this case had been brought promptly. The delay in naming Jack Smith et al and in the whole investigation at the higher level, is something that, you know, is going to be an important legacy against the administration.

[20:15:10]

BERMAN: Well, Congressman Goldman said the same thing. He was critical in that way of both Smith and Garland.

Brad, I know, you've been waiting patiently there. Congressman Goldman said that he thinks Donald Trump was elected to lower prices, not for retribution and revenge.

BRAD TODD, GOP MEDIA CONSULTANT AND STRATEGIST: Well, you know, I think that 62 percent of the American public thought these charges were politically motivated. Now that includes a lot of people who voted for Kamala Harris and the Department of Justice has long since already been weaponized in going after political enemies. You had the Richmond field office saying that people who are conservative Catholics should be considered potential terrorists.

You had Merrick Garland himself authored a memo that said parents who go to school boards, conservative parents to complain, they should be treated as domestic terrorists.

I mean, this Justice Department is in ill repute in the United States right now, and they earned it. And so I would hope that Pam Bondi goes in and restores the confidence of the American public in the Department of Justice. That may be -- require a little investigation, but it won't be political retribution. It'll be in the public interest.

BERMAN: We'll see what happens and we'll see what we should call it when it takes place.

Stick around everyone. Still to come, new reporting on a Trump team investigation into one of its own top aides. What one source called a pay-to-play scheme, nothing criminal we think, just an unsavory reminder that hints of some of the turmoil behind-the-scenes of the transition.

Also tonight, the Menendez brothers back in court today, at least virtually for the first time in decades. But their efforts to get a resentencing for the murders of their parents hit a roadblock. Details ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:21:04]

BERMAN: All right, more now on the legal issues involving the former president. Only this time, it is the president's attorneys investigating one of his own. Boris Epshteyn, one of his longest serving, most trusted and to some most divisive advisers, half a dozen sources say the lawyers are investigating allegations of a pay-to-play scheme.

Nothing illegal is alleged, but it speaks to the chaos behind the curtain of this transition, particularly since sources say the attorney's initial recommendation that Trump cut financial and other ties with Epshteyn is not being heeded.

In one instance, sources say Epshteyn requested as much as $100,000.00 per month in exchange for his services and other sources say Epshteyn told Trump's Treasury Secretary pick, billionaire, Scott Bessent to pay him. That way he would promote him with Trump and others, we are told, Bessent seen out to him right now.

Here is how the transition team characterized this internal investigation. "As is standard practice, a broad review of the campaigns consulting agreements has been conducted and completed, including as to Boris, among others." Epshteyn told CNN, "I am honored to work for President Trump and with his team. These fake claims are false and defamatory and will not distract us from making America Great Again."

Our panel is back with us.

Jeff, good work if you can get it, right?

TOOBIN: A hundred grand a month is pretty good. It's important to point out there is no allegation that Epshteyn committed any crime here. However, he did commit a crime in Trump world, which is making money because Donald Trump doesn't like anyone in Trump world making money except for Donald Trump. So, I can see him being quite irritated by this.

Also, if he's listening to Epshteyn's advice, you would assume that its advice that was based on the merits. Here, it turns out it may be based on who was paying him to promote people in front of Trump. I don't think Trump will be very happy, and it's worth noting that Epshteyn has not been given any sort of role yet in the new administration.

BERMAN: So to Ana, the president-elect, told the conservative outlet Just the News, "No one can promise any endorsement or nomination except me. I make these decisions on my own. Period." How do you think he feels about Boris?

NAVARRO: Okay. Can I tell you something? This is going to shock you. I don't see what the story here is. I think it is -- and I don't know Boris Epshteyn. Everything I've read about him I think he's an unseemly character, that being said, when you are part of a campaign and you don't have an exclusive employment agreement selling access is what lobbyists do.

I mean, this happens in every campaign, to the victors go the spoils. It happens. I assure you, it happens in on both sides and listen, this is this is how it goes. Donald Trump hiked up the initiation membership fee at Mar-a-Lago to $1 million. There are people, you know, paying members --

BERMAN: The Baked Alaska is pretty good.

NAVARRO: Showing up at Palm Beach and, you know, trying to figure out how to get into Mar-a-Lago, so, selling access comes with the territory. BERMAN: Brad, can I just ask, this is sort of your business. Yes, I mean --

TODD: No.

BERMAN: Okay, so it is unusual to get paid or to ask. If Scott Bessent wants to be Treasury Secretary, how unusual is it for Boris Epshteyn if he did this to say, hey, Scott, I'll speak up on your behalf for 50 grand?

TODD: Well, I think the American people can tell because they've seen these people who have been picked for Cabinet jobs, they've seen them campaign with Donald Trump. There's no doubt that these people are friends with Donald Trump. He knows almost all of them on a personal level quite well and they were fixtures in the campaign most of these folks.

And so, I don't think anybody is buying their way into Donald Trump's Cabinet, no matter who they're paying for advice. That means they're probably getting ripped off for it. Donald Trump's right when he says he makes those decisions and anyone who's observed his decision making knows that he makes these decisions.

And so, you know, I did find it interesting that Steven Cheung says that a broad review has been done. To me, that is a little bit newsy, but I think most people would agree that Howard Lutnick and Susie Wiles have run a really smooth transition. They've done a good job, they're professionals and the American public so far approves of the Cabinet.

[20:25:24]

NAVARRO: I think the only real big mistake they've made so far is appointing Matt Gaetz, which apparently reportedly came as part of the advice by Boris Epshteyn.

TOOBIN: You know, this story reminds me of something my mentor, Michael Kinsley, used to say which is, the scandal isn't what's illegal, the scandal is what's legal.

I mean, it is legal for lobbying to go on like this, but that just tells a little bit about what our standards are.

BERMAN: I will say, and we don't know exactly what the fight was over, but Elon Musk was reportedly getting in a shouting match with Boris at one of the tables of Mar-a-Lago, Brad, I mean, I just, again, I get that maybe some of this stuff happens, but it seems a little unseemly in some cases.

TODD: Well, if there weren't a little bit of shouting going on in a political campaign or a transition, then something would be wrong, then you wouldn't have an organization that tolerates dissent. But, you know, I think that again, you see an administration that has come together very quickly.

They had good ideas about who they wanted to pick, you've got governors, you've got a senator like Marco Rubio, widely admired; Mike Waltz, the congressman is widely admired; governors like Doug Burgum, Kristi Noem; this is a very, very tight Cabinet. Now with Matt Gaetz out of the picture, that's come into being. And I think that's why you see public approval pretty high on it. But a little shouting doesn't bother me. That's pretty normal.

BERMAN: So Brad, just before we came to air, Donald Trump truthed or tweeted or whatever it is he does right now on social media, saying that on day one, when he takes office, he's going to institute 25 percent tariffs on Mexico and Canada period.

TODD: No, not period. No, he didn't say period.

BERMAN: He said unless, unless and until they take action, but does that mean -- now?

TODD: That's not period. That's still misrepresented, he said that unless they take action to secure the border from the flow of migrants and drugs, illegal migrants and drugs, you know, I think that this is a typical tactic whereby he's sending a warning shot.

He's telling the governments of Mexico and Canada to get their act together on this. And, you know, Canada's Prime Minister Justin Trudeau's got a real problem. He decriminalized a lot of hard drugs. It's very controversial in Canada. British Columbia has tried to go back and undo it.

So you're seeing him being aware of that situation? I think here and I think, you know, day one, probably it won't happen because I think it's a way to send a signal to Mexico and Canada to get their act together.

NAVARRO: Stock up on your Tequila.

BERMAN: Well -- and I was going to say, yes, I didn't say period. What I was going to say is unless Canada or Mexico takes action, curious if they take action, it would have to be during the transition for him not to institute his tariffs on day one as promised.

TODD: Well, they have time. You know, they have time and you know, there's a caravan moving through Southern Mexico right now. I think that the way to deal with our border crisis begins with sending strong signals to the other countries. That's the thing Joe Biden didn't do. He signaled to the countries in Central America that the gates are wide open.

And if you look at the Canadian border, in the last fiscal year, you had 19,000 people apprehended illegally. That's 17 times what they've had in the last six years.

So, I think that sending a signal before he even gets in office is a great way to get off to a good start.

BERMAN: Well, signal sent. All right, Jeffrey Toobin, Ana Navarro. Brad Todd, thank you all very, very much.

Happy Thanksgiving if I don't see you again.

All right, it's a case that garnered attention for 35 years. The Menendez brothers found guilty of murdering their parents. The brothers were back in court today virtually for the first time in decades. We're going to speak to their attorney, Mark Geragos, about the latest efforts to have them released.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

JOHN BERMAN, CNN HOST: The Menendez brothers were back in court today, at least virtually, for the first time in 28 years. Lyle and Erik Menendez are serving life in prison in California for murdering their parents in 1989.

The story captured the nation's attention. Last month, Los Angeles' district attorney recommended resentencing, opening the door for the brothers' release. Today, the oldest sisters of the parents spoke in court, and the judge delayed a resentencing hearing scheduled for the brothers next month until January. CNN's Jean Casarez has the latest.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JEAN CASAREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Support for the Menendez brothers' release from prison comes from an unlikely place, family members, including the siblings of Jose and Kitty Menendez.

MARK GERAGOS, ATTORNEY FOR MENENDEZ BROTHERS: Both made impassioned pleas with the judge to send the brothers home.

JOAN VANDERMOLEN, SISTER OF KITTY MENENDEZ: What can a kid do when it's fathers? I can't stand it.

TERRY BARALT, SISTER OF JOSE MENENDEZ: Thirty-five years is a long time.

CASAREZ (voice-over): A resentencing hearing scheduled for December, now delayed until the end of January.

GERAGOS: We're hoping that by the end of that, or sometime sooner, that we will, in fact, get the brothers' release.

CASAREZ (voice-over): In their previous trials, prosecutors alleged the premeditated murder was in order to obtain their parents' fortune. The defense argued they killed them after suffering years of sexual, emotional, and physical abuse by their father.

LESLIE ABRAMSON, DEFENSE ATTORNEY FOR ERIK MENENDEZ: What we argued is child abuse creates a terrible fear, and that -- that fear in a -- in a certain set of circumstances can cause people to act because they feel they have no choice.

CASAREZ (voice-over): While the abuse was front and center during their first trial.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did you cry?

LYLE MENENDEZ: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did you bleed?

MENENDEZ: Yes.

[20:35:01]

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Were you scared?

MENENDEZ: Very.

CASAREZ (voice-over): It ended in a mistrial. The abuse testimony was limited during the second trial, and the two were convicted of capital murder in 1996. The saga captivated the country then and continues to grip the nation today.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The Menendez case is one of the most infamous criminal trials in America.

CASAREZ (voice-over): With a pair of recent documentaries and a Netflix docu-series, which highlighted the alleged abuse of the brothers by their father. And a habeas petition filed last year alleged new evidence of a letter Erik wrote his cousin about the alleged abuse months before the murders.

Another part of the petition, a former member of the singing group Menudo, alleged that he was sexually abused by the brother's father, Jose Menendez, a former entertainment mogul. The petition reading in part, jurors never knew that in 1984, Jose Menendez, who was an executive at RCA Records, anally raped 14-year-old Stephan Roy Rossello Diaz, a member of the Latin boy group Menudo.

Defense attorneys believe that if a jury had seen this evidence, the trial could have had a different outcome. In October, Los Angeles District Attorney George Gascon filed a motion recommending a judge resentence the siblings, which could allow them to be released. But he lost his reelection bid and the incoming DA says he needs more time to examine the case.

NATHAN HOCHMAN, LOS ANGELES COUNTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY-ELECT: I would do a thorough and complete review of the facts and the law because the Menendez brothers, the public, the victim family members owe nothing less than having the DA do that review. I don't have access to many of those documents at this point.

CASAREZ (voice-over): Jean Casarez, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BERMAN: All right, with us now is Mark Garagos and the Menendez brothers, who was just in Jean's report.

Mark, this was the first hearing for the Menendez brothers in decades. What was it like today for them, for their family, and -- and frankly, for you? GARAGOS: Well, frankly, it was a little surreal for them. They were watching the whole thing. We had a couple of technical glitches because we didn't know if they could actually see us, but the whole time they could. I -- I think, though, the takeaway for me, at least personally, and I think for the family, was we had put Jose's older sister, Terry, on the stand and she testified and the judge engaged with her and she was extremely moving.

Then we called Joan, who is Kitty's older sister. And Joan turns 93 tomorrow and is one of the reasons I've always said I wanted them home for Thanksgiving so they could celebrate her 93rd birthday. But we brought her up to the council table and it was, I don't know, that even the most hard-boiled courtroom observer wasn't moved to tears to just hear Joan say that she wanted them home and that she understood everything that they've been doing and all the good work they've been doing and that she really, more than anything, just wanted to see them.

BERMAN: So you think the testimony from these aunts -- these aunts speaking in court today, you think this could perhaps sway the decision?

GARAGOS: Well, look, this is one of these unusual situations, John, where you have, they're not only the aunts of the accused who I represent, they're also the victims. And in California, the victims have an absolute right to speak. And here you had the older sister of both of the deceased, Kitty's older sister, Jose's older sister, making impassioned pleas to this judge. And under the state of the law, they're clearly not at risk for committing any violent act going forward. And the victims are here articulating under the California constitution that they want them released.

BERMAN: How concerned are you that the incoming district attorney could disagree with the resentencing recommendation of the DA who was voted out of office? What would happen then?

GARAGOS: So frankly, it's up to, and the judge said, I'm going to defer to the new DA to let him get up to speed, but I'm also going to initiate a resentencing myself. So we have a situation where I think if anybody takes a fair and unbiased look at this, that they're going to say these guys should be released.

BERMAN: If, if the brothers are released, what then? What do you think their lives look like at that point?

GARAGOS: Well, you know, Erik has -- has done some tremendous work in putting together programs for inmates who have been released or who are transitioning to being released. Lyle has put together this green space project, which is kind of reforming prisons in terms of the community and understanding that prisoners, you're not -- you don't lock up everybody to never get out, but eventually they're going to get out. And the green space project is basically an initiative to help ease that transition.

[20:40:13]

I see them continuing to do that work. They both expressed that that's exactly what they'd like to do and make it their life's work.

BERMAN: Got to say, quite a day. Mark Garagos, I appreciate your time. Thanks for being with us.

GARAGOS: Good to see you, John. Thank you.

BERMAN: Still ahead, a group of Pennsylvania seniors who supported Vice President Harris talk about President-elect Trump's win. What they told our John King when he visited them again for a new All Over the Map Report. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:45:05]

BERMAN: President-elect Trump has moved quickly to announce his cabinet picks and other key roles for his second administration. Those picks came up at one point when our John King went back to battleground Pennsylvania to talk with a group of seniors for the first time since the election. They supported Vice President Harris and they're in shock, they're angry and they're worried about the future. This is the latest installment of his All Over the Map Series.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JOHN KING, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Pat Levin is 95 years young, fit and feisty.

KING: Trying to keep up with you, Pat.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She's off to the races.

KING (voice-over): A lifelong Democrat, scared and stunned. Donald Trump will be president in her twilight.

PAT LEVIN, PENNSYLVANIA VOTER: I want to fight, I think. I don't want to fight, but I think I have to because I think there's no such thing as staying neutral. I think once you stay neutral, it's the oppressor who wins and the oppressed who suffer.

KING: You use the term oppressor. I assume when Richard Nixon won or Ronald Reagan won or either the George Bushes won, even though you're a Democrat, I'm guessing you didn't use that term.

LEVIN: Never, never.

KING: What does that tell you about how you feel and what you see?

LEVIN: Well, I -- I see a man who is not our regime now, who is not paying much attention to our history and to our -- to our norms, the Democratic norms that we have always lived by.

KING (voice-over): Republican friends tell Levin to relax. That Trump will fix the border and juice the economy, that all will be fine. FDR was president when Levin got her first taste of politics. She's seen a lot, trusts her instincts. LEVIN: His willingness to go around the intent of our constitution and the democracy that we live in scares me. His people that he's nominating now, they scare me. Is Elon Musk the shadow president or is Vance really the vice president? Isn't that scary to have to ask that question? Have we ever had to ask that before?

KING (voice-over): Levin sees mass deportations as mean and harmful to the economy, sees Trump rewarding men accused of sexual misconduct, sees women's rights in retreat, sees her American dream, the idea you leave things better than you found them, at severe risk.

LEVIN: That's why I'm afraid. I'm not so afraid for me. I'm not going to be around probably to experience it. But I'm afraid for those I love, for those I don't love, those I know, those I don't know. It's all those people coming after me who might have to live under this.

KING (voice-over): This is Northampton County, Pennsylvania, a place that picks presidents. The county has now backed the winner in five straight presidential elections, and in all but three over the past 100 years. Northampton's rural stretches are ruby red Trump country. Democratic hopes rest on the county's two urban anchors, Bethlehem and Easton.

KING (voice-over): Lifelong Easton resident Marvin Boyer is still shocked at the size of Trump's win, but not shocked he won.

MARVIN BOYER, PENNSYLVANIA VOTER: There's any number of reasons why it went the way it did, the economy being one. I believe racism played a role in it, misogyny.

KING (voice-over): Plus, more Black men voted for Trump this time.

BOYER: Why would you vote for an individual who I think is a racist, who is a misogynist, who is with the January 6th situation? Why would you vote for a guy like that? Because he tells it like it is. And that resonates with me. It's one of the things that I hear from Black men who support Trump, you know?

Can't have Thanksgiving without the turkey.

KING (voice-over): Boyer is a lifelong civil rights and community activist. These Thanksgiving meal bags filled in a room dedicated to his mother.

BOYER: There's a hero that's the one.

KING (voice-over): The Easton Community Garden, another way to lend a hand. Helping others helps Boyer channel his disappointment. And he urges angry Democrats to do the same. Because I often run into people who complain a lot, you know, and I'm a doer. And I say be the change that you want to see in the community. Get involved in a local organization. Be more of an activist.

DARRELL ANN MURPHY, PENNSYLVANIA VOTER: You're not going to believe this, ladies. Look at the jokers.

KING (voice-over): Darrell Ann Murphy, is already doing just that.

MURPHY: Friends of mine have started groups. We're calling it the Quiet Resistance. It's -- I feel like I'm standing on the edge of a cliff and like, everything's kind of falling down around me. It's falling down. What happened to the foundation? What happened? Will America fall down? I never had thought this. I never thought this. This is just a -- this is just a huge shock to seniors, John, huge.

OK, now we're going to rack them and see what we got.

KING (voice-over): Murphy teaches the Chinese tile game, Mahjong. Our third time at the table over the past year. Third time Murphy and Catherine Long have sparred with Pam Aita.

PAM AITA, PENNSYLVANIA VOTER: I don't have to have dinner with Donald Trump. I don't care what he does. Just keep me safe, keep my grandkids safe and have money in our pockets. That's all.

CATHERINE LONG, PENNSYLVANIA VOTER: I'm scared to death of what he's going to do. And some of that comes from what's happening with his cabinet choices.

[20:50:01]

AITA: I think we have to just knock it off. He's president for four years. We'll have another election --

LONG: We hope.

AITA: -- and then, you know.

LONG: I have fears that he won't leave.

AITA: Oh come on. That's ridiculous.

LONG: I'm not kidding. I have fears that he won't leave.

KING (voice-over): A debate for the next four years.

MURPHY: If we're still here on this earth.

AITA: Yes. We might not even be here, John. Do you ever think of that?

KING: I'm not -- I'm not going to allow myself to think about.

KING (voice-over): Back to the game. Won on this day --

AITA: Mahjong.

KING: -- by the Trump supporter.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BERMAN: Really entering discussions. And John King is with us now. And John, I've heard you talk about Northampton County before. It is a place that picks presidents swinging back and forth. How many counties are there left like that?

KING: John, I know you're fascinated by the same things I am. Where are the counties? What are the places that swing elections, right? So this is the presidential election we just had by county.

If you look, you see a lot of red in the middle of America. You know, Democrats say nobody lives there. But guess what? It's important. It's important to win county by county. Trump winning the popular vote. So coming into this election, there were 25 counties in America that had voted twice for Barack Obama, then for Donald Trump, and then back to Joe Biden. There were 25 coming into it. They call them the pivot counties or the boomerang counties. So that was then.

So now let's look at what happened to those 25 in this election when you pop them up here, right. Ten of them, 10 of them went with Vice President Harris. So they broke their streak. You see them in blue here. A little hard to see at home, maybe small counties.

But if you look now, so now what do we have left? We have 15 counties now. You'll see them in the red here. And a couple up in New England, they're townships. But they're county equivalents, if you will. So 15 counties across the United States now, John, voted twice for Obama, then for Trump, then for Biden, and then for Trump. So they've been with the winner in the last five presidential elections, these 15 counties on the map.

So as you and I maybe think 2028, let's get an early head start. If you want to camp out somewhere, I would recommend one of these 15 counties. You got a great one right up here on the Canadian border in Montana. Nice one here in rural South Dakota. Colorado, they're everywhere. So let's get your camping gear and let's get out there.

BERMAN: Very quickly, John, that woman said she wanted to be part of the quiet resistance. What do the Democrats want to see from national elected Democrats now?

KING: It's a fascinating question. You get different answers. They want to see them stand up to Trump. They want to see them fight these nominees, right? A key test coming forward. The Democrats obviously don't have the votes to stop them.

The question is, can they get a few Republican allies on some of these big cabinet choices? And they are literally, forgive me for the pun, but all over the map when you do have conversations with them about who do you think, right? Who do you think? Should Harris -- is -- is Harris the leader of the party?

Should it be your -- we're in Pennsylvania. They love their Governor Shapiro, and they think he will be a future player in the party. But there's a big debate. I'll tell you what, though, John, they're not really ready for those conversations because literally the -- the Harris supporters in that group, they are still stunned -- stunned, shocked, and really sad that Trump will be president in their twilight.

BERMAN: Look, you could see the sting. You could hear it in their voices. John King, great report. Thank you very much.

[20:52:54]

Coming up, how did a single Macy's employee manage to hide as much as $154 million in expenses? Our Harry Enten will try and make sense of the bad accounting.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BERMAN: All right, major retailer Macy's announced that a single employee was responsible for intentionally hiding as much as $154 million in expenses over the course of several years. Our senior data reporter, Harry Enten, is here with the details. Harry, can you explain what we actually know about the situation?

HARRY ENTEN, CNN SENIOR DATA REPORTER: Well, I think you explained most of it, right? It's a hiding, accounting hiding, $154 million in delivery expenses. What we also know is that because of that, Macy's had to delay its quarter three financial report, which is pretty important. And it was so many irregularities that they actually hired an independent outside forensic accounting team in order to figure out exactly what was going on.

BERMAN: So why did this person do this?

ENTEN: We don't know.

BERMAN: Why did it go on for so long?

ENTEN: We don't know.

BERMAN: Did the vendors get paid?

ENTEN: Yes.

BERMAN: So did this person steal the money?

ENTEN: No. That's what's so bizarre.

BERMAN: Are they still with the company?

ENTEN: No, they were fired. They were fired.

BERMAN: So how much of this was of like what part of this was of Macy's overall delivery expense?

ENTEN: And that's, again, this is so again, part of what is so bizarre about it. It's just a fraction. So if you go to the end of 2021, which is when since this these irregularities really started, what you would see is that the overall expenses for deliveries is 4.4 billion. This is just 100 up to 154 million. John, you could do quickly the math on that. That is well less, well less than 10 percent of the total delivery expenses.

So again, this is just part of the bizarrity of all of this is it such a small fraction, why was this person hiding it? We have no freaking clue.

BERMAN: So -- so Macy's delayed things. Any reason, any numbers explains why?

ENTEN: Yes. OK. So, you know, yes, the overall in terms of delivery expenses is quite high since quarter four of 2021.

BERMAN: But let's just talk about the margins, right, that the company operates on the net profit. If you look at their quarter to quarter to net profits, what do you see? You see that their quarter to net profits for 2024 were 150 million. So up to 154 million, that could cover their entire profits from the last quarter.

So that is why Macy's is taking their time. They want to sort of report this out, figure out exactly what's going on. And the bottom line is in the clothing industry, you know, and what Macy's operates in small margins mean up to 154 could cover their entire profits from the last quarter.

[21:00:07]

BERMAN: One thing I do know, expenses are hard.

ENTEN: Expenses are very hard. I have not done my expenses in two months, but I promise you, Elizabeth Hartfield, my dear boss, I am going to do them soon.

BERMAN: And let's hope they don't make up $154 million.

ENTEN: I tend to doubt it.

BERMAN: Harry, and thank you very much.

The news continues. The Source with Kaitlan Collins starts right now.