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Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees

Israel and Hezbollah Ceasefire Expected To Take Effect; Ukraine Recently Carried Out Two More Strikes Using Longer-Range, US Supplied Missiles; Rudy Giuliani Argues With Judge Over Defamation Payout; Walmart Rolls Back DEI Programs After Right-Wing Backlash; KY Man Went To The O.R. To Have His Organs Harvested But Instead Left Hospital Alive. Aired: 8-9p ET

Aired November 26, 2024 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

HARRY ENTEN, CNN SENIOR DATA REPORTER: We have reached a 20 year high in November of 2024 compared to the 20-year average. Look at that rise up nearly 1,200 percent. So the bottom line is you may think that tariffs are a bore if you're out there. But the American people think tariffs are quite hot at this point.

ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: Wow, I mean that's a huge increase. And it's not just off a small base, it's a 20-year high.

ENTEN: Correct.

BURNETT: Wow, all right. Thank you so much, Harry.

ENTEN: Thank you.

BURNETT: And Happy Thanksgiving, and thanks so much to all of you as always for being with us. AC360 starts now.

[20:00:33]

JOHN BERMAN, CNN HOST: All right, tonight on 360, breaking news, a ceasefire deal between Israel and Hezbollah is set to go into effect in 60 minutes, will it hold? We head live to Israel for the latest on the ground.

And later, an angry outburst in court today from Rudy Giuliani over the nearly $150 million he owes two Georgia election workers. Also, tonight is corporate America turning its back on DEI policies. We will discuss why Walmart and others are trying to roll back more than just prices.

Good evening, John Berman here in for Anderson. The breaking news, one hour from now, a ceasefire to end more than two months of fighting between Israel and Hezbollah is supposed to take effect. Thousands have been killed, hundreds of thousands displaced. And it's all supposed to stop in 60 minutes.

The deal came together today after one of the most intense Israeli strikes yet around Lebanon's capital Beirut. At least 25 people were reportedly killed. President Biden announced the deal from the Rose Garden this afternoon. He says it is designed to be permanent. Israel and Hezbollah will have 60 days to withdraw from the fighting area. The president said he hopes the deal puts pressure on Hamas now to make a deal as well.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Just as the Lebanese people deserve a future of security and prosperity, so do the people of Gaza. They too deserve an end to the fighting and displacement. The people of Gaza have been through hell.

Over the coming days, the United States will make another push with Turkey, Egypt, Qatar, Israel, and others to achieve a ceasefire in Gaza. With the hostages released at the end of the war without Hamas in power, that becomes possible.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: All right, our Jeremy Diamond joins us now from Northern Israel. Jeremy, what do we know about the terms of this agreement?

JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN JERUSALEM CORRESPONDENT: Well, listen, John, after 14 months of cross-border attacks between Israel and Hezbollah that intensified into an all-out war over the last two months. We are finally expecting to see a ceasefire go into effect between Israel and Hezbollah, 60 days, initially, in order to implement the terms of this agreement. That means Israeli forces, which have been on the ground in Southern Lebanon for the better part of the last two months now withdrawing from that area.

Hezbollah forces set to withdraw north of the Litani River, some 20 miles North of the Israel-Lebanon border, and the Lebanese military, now moving into those areas in order to monitor any ceasefire violations going forward.

The United States is set to now lead a monitoring committee alongside France and other countries to ensure that neither side is violating terms of the agreement and to enforce effectively this agreement. Israel, though, is saying that it will maintain the ability to act of its own volition to enforce this agreement, to enforce any violations of Hezbollah, to this agreement in Southern Lebanon.

The United States and Israel supposedly have a side agreement that discusses that. President Biden would only say that Israel has the right to self-defense, but the Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, is far more adamant about Israel maintaining unilateral ability to strike against Hezbollah.

BERMAN: Jeremy, how are people where you are in Northern Israel right now reacting to this deal?

DIAMOND: Well, there has been a mixed reaction, but certainly those in Israel's northernmost communities that have been the target of not only rockets and drones, but also anti-tank ballistic missiles that have a range of about ten kilometers, they are upset tonight. They do not feel like the Israeli military has accomplished enough against Hezbollah. They would have liked to see Israel establish some kind of a buffer zone in Southern Lebanon.

I spoke with the mayor of Kiryat Shmona, one of those communities that has been devastated by those rockets, drones, and anti-tank missiles. And he told me that he met with the Israeli prime minister tonight alongside other mayors from those northern communities. He left frustrated. He left feeling like the Israeli prime minister did not -- was not able to convince him of the security of his community following this agreement. But he is going to see, you know, what it will take for residents of those communities to return.

Not only from a security aspect, but also, of course, a lot of the rebuilding that will have to be done there.

BERMAN: All right, Jeremy Diamond, stand by for a moment. I want to bring in CNN political and foreign policy analyst Barak Ravid.

Barak, thank you so much for being with us. What was it in your reporting that got this security agreement over the finish line?

[20:05:11]

BARAK RAVID, CNN POLITICAL AND FOREIGN POLICY ANALYST: Well, I think there are many factors and if you take all the, nitty-gritty and you look at the big picture, I think that mainly on Israeli side, there was an understanding both in the IDF and the military and in the political echelon and specially Prime Minister Netanyahu that any additional day in Lebanon will just mean that Israel will get bogged down there without any real reason and without any real benefits, and with getting more and more casualties every day.

And I think that that was the bottom line, that's what led Netanyahu to take this decision.

BERMAN: So, you heard President Biden, Barak, say that he wants this ceasefire to be permanent. In your mind and in your reporting, how long is it reasonable to expect it to last and what are the potential pitfalls?

RAVID: Well, look, John, let's go back to 2006. The second Lebanon war ended with a deal that, to be honest is more or less like this one. And the ceasefire lasted something like 17 years. There were some incidents here and there, but mostly it was quiet. Seventeen years is quite a long time.

It doesn't mean that this will be the same in this case, especially that the Israeli prime minister says that he will enforce this ceasefire with Israeli military action if needed.

This means that if in two days or two weeks or two months, Israel sees any violation from Hezbollah, it will act. This will mean in my opinion, that Hezbollah will fire back, and then this whole cease fire will collapse this is why I think 'A' I'm not sure Hezbollah will be -- will violate this deal so easily. And 'B' I don't see Netanyahu rushing towards a renewal of the fighting in the north especially when we know that Donald Trump is about to assume office in less than two months. And Donald Trump said that he wants to end wars, not start new ones. This is why I think Netanyahu this is another reason why Netanyahu had the incentive to cut this deal now

BERMAN: Jeremy, you mentioned it also what Barak, was just talking about. The fact that Netanyahu says that Israel will maintain full military freedom of action. What is your reporting tell you about what it would take for Israel to use that?

DIAMOND: Well, look, the Israeli prime minister made very clear that this ceasefire in Lebanon is only going to last as long as the conditions on the ground allow for it and that is to say that he is -- I mean first of all, it's a political message. We have to acknowledge that he has been facing so much criticism today from right wing members of his own government, some people outside of his government, even to the left of him, and also, of course, from these mayors that I was talking about, from those northern communities.

And so on the one hand, he's trying to assuage those criticisms by insisting that Israel will still be tough, will still have the ability to carry out these strikes. I think it's very clear that Israel will maintain that ability operationally and I am told that Israel did get some assurances from the United States in this side letter between the US and Israel that if Israel had not received those assurances, I was told, they probably would not have moved forward with this agreement, both because it was needed from a political perspective here in Israel and also, of course, from an operational one on the ground.

BERMAN: And Barak, President Biden said he wants to see now a deal with Hamas or hopes for a ceasefire with Hamas. Does this make that more likely? I know there are so many in Israel who would like to see a return of the hostages.

RAVID: Well, you know, President Biden is a man of faith, faith is important on this issue. And he also, to his credit, put a lot of effort into trying to get this Gaza hostage deal, but I think that it is still very unlikely that we will see such a deal before January 20th.

I would be surprised. I would be highly surprised. Mainly because the basic terms haven't changed and this means that Hamas wants to know that if it cuts a hostage deal with Israel, this means the end of the war and withdrawal of Israeli forces from Gaza and Prime Minister Netanyahu still refuses that.

So, it is possible. I can see a scenario where maybe they can get the first phase of this deal meaning a release of a dozen or two dozen hostages in return for 40 or 42 days of ceasefire. But even for that to happen, Hamas will have to move and Netanyahu will have to move and I'm not sure both sides are willing to do it in the next two months.

BERMAN: All right, Barak Ravid, Jeremy Diamond in Israel, thank you both so much.

[20:10:15] Now, to Russia's war in Ukraine. One night after Russia launched what Ukrainian officials say were a record number of drone attacks, Russia says Ukraine recently carried out two more strikes on Russian soil using those longer range US supplied missiles, Kyiv hopes can now give it an edge in the war.

Our Fred Pleitgen has more from Moscow.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Moscow for the first time, acknowledging the effectiveness of Ukraine's use of US supplied missiles to hit targets inside Russia, admitting ATACMS struck a radar and an airfield showing photos of fragments they claim come from the American rockets.

Kremlin controlled TV ripping into US and British officials lobbying to give Ukraine more firepower.

(UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE speaking in foreign language.)

PLEITGEN (voice over): "These same people are then sincerely outraged that Putin is preparing to strike an American air defense base in Poland and not only there," the host says.

PLEITGEN (on camera): The Kremlin says it's trying to send a very clear message to the West. If the US and its allies continue to give Ukraine longer distance weapons and allow Kyiv to fire those weapons deep inside Russian territory, the West is playing with fire.

PLEITGEN (voice over): And that message is playing on repeat across Russia. Since Vladimir Putin ordered a strike against Ukraine with a new type of intermediate range ballistic missile called Oreshnik.

State TV showing behind-the-scenes footage of Putin after a televised statement announcing the launch last week.

The Russian leader saying, "I think it's clear and understandable enough" and if it wasn't clear enough, a Russian lawmaker showed up to Parliament in a Putin t-shirt and the Oreshnik missile launching. Oreshnik is the Russian word for hazelnut tree, the writing on the shirt means tough nut.

(UNIDENTIFIED MALE speaking in foreign language.)

PLEITGEN: "Perhaps after Oreshnik was put to work, they scratched their heads and understood that they need to listen and hear what our president says," the lawmaker says, "He never throws words into the wind," he warns.

With Ukraine's army on the back foot struggling against overpowering Russian forces on several fronts. Moscow accuses the Biden administration of escalating the conflict in the final days before Donald Trump takes over.

(SERGEI NARYSHKIN, RUSSIA'S FOREIGN SPY CHIEF speaking in foreign language.)

PLEITGEN (voice over): "The countries of the western bloc are suffering a fiasco in the conflict in Ukraine, but at the same time, we believe they won't calm down," Russia's foreign spy chief says.

(SERGEI NARYSHKIN, RUSSIA'S FOREIGN SPY CHIEF speaking in foreign language.)

PLEITGEN: "They'll act as usual and will try to create chaos on the territories of our allied states and chaos in the Russian Federation."

And US Missiles fired at Russia, the Kremlin says, will make it harder for the incoming Trump administration to end the Ukraine war.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PLEITGEN (on camera): And, John of course, President-elect Trump and some of his Cabinet picks have said that they want to try and end the Ukraine war as fast as possible. However, today a senior aide to Russian President Vladimir Putin came out and said to his knowledge, so far there have been no contacts between Russia and the Trump team -- John.

BERMAN: All right Fred Pleitgen, thank you very much.

Still to come tonight, an angry, defiant Rudy Giuliani with a list of grievances. But not nearly the $150 million he owes two Georgia poll workers. The latest on a heated day in federal court for the president elect's onetime attorney.

Plus, a Kentucky man was in the OR about to have his organs harvested. But he was alive and eventually left the hospital. And now a major investigation is underway. The report from our Dr. Sanjay Gupta, coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:18:12]

BERMAN: So, Rudy Giuliani got an earful from a federal judge today and gave the judge an earful right back. It's just the latest sordid tale of the court's trying with limited success, to get the man once known as America's Mayor to pay two Georgia poll workers who won a nearly $150 million defamation suit against him.

Kara Scannell was at the court today and joins us now with more.

All right, So Kara, what did Rudy Giuliani had to say in court today?

KARA SCANNELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: So, this was the hearing to try to enforce that nearly $150 million judgment. And the judge was chiding Giuliani because he hasn't complied with all the deadlines. He hasn't turned over or said where this signed Joe Dimaggio shirt is. And also that 1980 Mercedes. Giuliani gave it to the women along with the keys, but not the title.

And so, the judge was calling that out and saying he was the US attorney for this district. He can get the title to the car.

Then Giuliani just cut off the judge and interrupted and said that he has made efforts to try to get this title. And then he went on a rant about his financial issues, and he repeated some of those statements outside of court.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RUDY GIULIANI, FORMER NEW YORK CITY MAYOR: I have no cash. It's all tied up, so right now, if I wanted to call a taxi cab, I can't do it. I don't have a credit card. I don't have a checking account. I have no place I can go take cash out except a little bit that I saved. And it's getting down to almost nothing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCANNELL: Now, the judge had warned Giuliani that he can either represent himself, or he can have the lawyer who's sitting next to him represent him, but he can't have both.

BERMAN: Yes, I mean, judges don't normally react well to outbursts and behavior like this. So, how did the judge handle it?

SCANNELL: So, he told him that, and then he said, you know, earlier, he also reminded Giuliani that, you know, there could be issues of contempt here if he doesn't hand over these assets or show that he's made a good faith effort to find them and hand them over.

So, he didn't use the jail word, but he said you know what I can do here. You don't want me to say it. I just want you to be aware of what the potential consequences could be.

[20:20:16]

BERMAN: He all but said jail. So, what happens next?

SCANNELL: So, Giuliani is actually going to trial on January 16th because they're trying to figure out who has the actual owner of these World Series rings that could prove valuable and could be turned over.

Giuliani had asked the judge to postpone the trial because he wants to attend the inauguration. The judge said today he wasn't doing that. He said he might move it up and he wants to hear from both sides in the next few weeks.

BERMAN: All right, Kara Scannell, thank you very much.

All right. Money news now, not Rudy's, but all of ours. The Dow Jones and S&P 500 both closed at record highs today, apparently shaking off any concerns after the president-elect posted that he is going to impose 25 percent across the board tariffs on imports from Canada and Mexico, "This tariff will remain in effect until such time as drugs in particular fentanyl and all illegal aliens stop this invasion of our country."

He said much the same, about a 10 percent tariff on imports from China. Now, companies like Walmart and Lowe's says the tariffs could cause them to increase prices on consumers.

Mexico's president has already promised to retaliate with their own tariffs, but will Donald Trump actually follow through? This is what his pick for Commerce Secretary, Howard Lutnick said in September before the election.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The question is whether you believe the president is going to do it strategically or across the board. He keeps saying it across the board.

HOWARD LUTNICK, COMMERCE SECRETARY NOMINEE: When you're running for office, you make broad statements so people understand you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: All right, joining us now are CNN political commentators Shermichael Singleton, Alyssa Farah Griffin and Ashley Allison. And Alyssa, one of the things here is that so many of Trumps allies say it's a negotiating tactic. It's a negotiating tactic. Can it still work if everyone knows and says it's a negotiating tactic?

ALYSSA FARAH GRIFFIN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes and no, listen, I think it's one of the maybe brilliant things about Trump is he's often open to interpretation. So, I think a lot of folks on Capitol Hill, even people who will be serving in his incoming administration, are looking at it as a bargaining chip and thinking that these may be much more targeted, not across the board, not, you know, 20 percent on any goods and service that may be coming in to the country.

And there's some reason to believe that, like we saw in the first term, where he -- Donald Trump loves some tariffs, he genuinely believes that they work and they're a good pressure point. But we saw that they were a bit more limited in how he used them with steel from Canada and with some imports related to washing machines, I believe it was.

So, there's ways he could do this in maybe a more targeted way but Donald Trump reacts to the public and to the markets.

Now, the markets are steady now. But say he comes into office and signs this. If he sees the Dow drop in a massive way he's going to react to that. He's not going to do something that's going to massively rattle the markets.

BERMAN: There's Wall Street, then there's Main Street, Shermichael. I mean, if tariffs do go into effect and if it does start to affect the prices that we all pay, as economists genuinely agree, that it will, I mean, how much pain do you think the American people will be willing to put up with and how much do you think the president-elect is willing to take?

SHERMICHAEL SINGLETON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I think the president-elect is going to attempt to avoid that as much as possible. John, the worst thing you want is to cause economic instability. Now, as we saw Justin Trudeau stated today that he spoke with Trump. They had a great conversation he looks forward to more talks to come. I think they'll figure out a meeting ground at some point.

Mexico, look, there are a lot of issues with Mexico and I think that Trump is going to use the threat of tariffs to tell the incoming or the newly elected, rather president of the country that you guys need to do a whole lot more to stop the caravans from traversing through your country, impacting the United States, in southern border states such as Texas. I actually think a lot of Americans would potentially agree with that. And we'll see what Mexico decides.

On China, my concern with China is that I don't know if tariffs is the best strategy here. I'm more concerned about IP. Chinese corporations stealing US manufacturers' intellectual property. I think you need a more targeted economic approach to dealing with China and leveling that playing field there. But we'll see what happens.

BERMAN: Well, we may see what happens very quickly since he says he's going to do it on January 20th, which is his first day back on the job, Ashley, what do you think that Democrats response should be, particularly when it comes to tariffs?

ASHLEY ALLISON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes, so I think there's two things that Democrats are going to have to do and do it quite nimbly. First, this whole campaign season, Democrats have argued that the economy is improving. So, you don't -- if something, if it continues to trend in the way it is, you don't want Donald Trump to get all the credit for that for the four years of Joe Biden's presidency.

Simultaneously, if he does this to Alyssa's point and the Dow drops or prices increase rapidly, you've got a strike. You've got to remind the American people, he told you he was going to make your lives better, and he's making it worse. We bank on elections. We bank on people's behavior or elected official's behavior being determined before elections.

And so, I believe that Democrats will start running on January 20th and banking on bad things happening to the economy, because Donald Trump and having him have to answer to the American people. That's the challenge of governing.

[20:25:11]

BERMAN: You said they're going to have to be nimble. We'll see if they're going to have to get some mojo back.

ALLISON: Optimistic thinking.

BERMAN: Alyssa, you know Kara Scannell's report on Rudy Giuliani. I mean, that was something to hear him outside the court and hear her account of him inside the court, basically blowing up at the judge. What do you think is going on here?

GRIFFIN: Honestly, I find the whole thing very sad to watch this as a person, I think many of us once held in very high regard, and he's chosen a course of action over several years that have really jeopardized other people's livelihoods and their futures and how they're living. And it's a result of his actions that he's in this position.

But it is pretty stunning to see that this is one of the few people who is actually going to see consequences from the events around the election being stolen and lies told around that, and impugning people who were just doing their jobs.

Whereas juxtapose that to Donald Trump, who basically just got away with everything related to the January 6th investigation. I think it should be maybe a cautionary tale for folks around Donald Trump, he may be Teflon-Don and get away with anything, but you will not necessarily.

BERMAN: All right, friends, stick around for a moment, if you will. We are going to have much more coming up. I want your takes on this next story.

Walmart says, it will curb its diversity, equity and inclusion efforts following right wing backlash and it's not the only company to do so. So, is this a sign of a larger cultural shift? That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:30:48]

BERMAN: All right, Walmart is the latest major corporation to be caught up in the culture wars. The company announced it will roll back its diversity, equity and inclusion efforts in the wake of right-wing backlash. That includes ending racial equity training programs for staff and evaluating programs designed to increase supplier diversity.

Walmart, the largest private employer in the U.S. joins Harley- Davidson Tractor Supply Company and John Deere in revising or pulling back on their DEI programs. And that's just to name a few of the companies doing so.

You'll remember that Bud Light's decision last year to partner with a transgender influencer sparked a boycott the parent company Anheuser- Busch says may have cost the company more than $1 billion in sales. Now experts say the re-election of Donald Trump will likely accelerate Corporate America turning its back on DEI initiatives.

Now, some top Democrats believe the last election was at least partially lost on the battlefields of the culture wars. As the party continues to do some post-election soul searching, the architects of the Harris campaign are speaking out for the first time about what they think went wrong, making a wide ranging appearance on Pod Save America.

Deputy Campaign Manager Quentin Fulks offered one potential explanation that Democrats are simply out of touch with where the country has moved culturally.

(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP) QUENTIN FULKS, DEPUTY CAMPAIGN MANAGER, HARRIZ-WALZ 2024: There is a cultural dynamic that's at play in politics today, where it is converging like we've never seen

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And we're losing the culture war.

FULKS: And we're losing the culture war and whatever it is, woke, whatever word you want to use. I'm not -- you know, I leave that to anybody to define on whatever value, but we are not aligned on where we can be within that.

(END VIDEOCLIP)

BERMAN: All right, back with us. Alyssa Farrah Griffin, Ashley Allison, and Shermichael Singleton. Ashley, you were laughing there.

ALLISON: I didn't know we were going to play that clip. OK. So I'll talk about Walmart because I've actually had some interactions with Walmart when I worked at the White House.

Walmart was the first private employer actually to ban the box for formerly incarcerated individuals when it was not an extremely popular thing to do, which really set a trend in the corporate America ego, like, zeitgeist, where, you know, criminal justice reform was somewhat of a new approach to the work.

And so, to see them do this with DEI, am I surprised? No. Am I disappointed? Yes. Often, when social movements happen, there is a backlash. Whether you look at the civil rights movement, whether you look at the women's rights movement, whether you look at the Black Lives Matter movement, there is backlash that often happens with progress.

The question is, how do you sustain it if you want to see the movement move forward? So, Walmart does well on Ban the Box, but then Donald Trump and they move back on DEI. DEI is not a bad word. It is about leveling the playing field. But I do think some of the messaging that has been around DEI that has been done quite well by the right is why we find ourselves in this predicament with the Walmart.

I'll also just say the Supreme Court decision on affirmative action played a huge role in this. Many people -- many legal scholars have looked at that decision that it should only be applied to higher education. But when that decision came down, a lot of people said that it was going to have a rampant effect across institutions that it really is not discussing, but that's what happens when your highest judicial institution makes a decision.

It touches parts of the country that you might -- it might not need to, but it does.

BERMAN: You know, Shermichael, what Ashley was saying there, you can actually see the action and reaction in Walmart's own statements. This is language from Walmart. In 2020, the chief executive wrote that, quote, "slavery, lynching, the concept of separate but equal have morphed into a set of systems today that are all too often, unjust." Compare that to the company statement today, quote, "We are willing to change alongside our associates and customers who represent all of America". That's a shift right there.

SINGLETON: I mean, look, John, I have a lot of thoughts on this. I mean, I'm a quality of opportunity kind of guy, and I think in an ideal world, people should rise and fall based on their merits, based on their tenacity, their hard work, their natural talents.

I just don't know, as someone who owns a business, if I'm looking at hiring people, and we have quite a few people we've hired, and we're hiring even more as we're growing, I'm not looking necessarily at a person's race. I want to look at who's the best person.

[20:35:07]

And obviously, we're going to look at black people, women, Hispanics, white, whatever the case may be because his skills are most important to us. And I think in the business world, you want people who can do a great job so that you can maintain your capital market position for your investors and also serve your consumers.

So I don't know what the end result of this ultimately is. But I think if you're giving everybody an equal opportunity for position for role to do the job, and you're selecting people based on that solely, then I think that's pretty fair.

BERMAN: I will say that I think the 2020 Walmart would have said those two things aren't necessarily in conflict. I'm not sure the 2024 Walmart messaging would say that same thing.

But Alyssa, to the political point that Quentin Fulks was making, and I think that Ashley referred to here, I mean, how far away are Democrats from where the feeling around the country is?

GRIFFIN: Yes, because my sense is somewhere between Shermichael and Ashley on this, which is that diversity, equity, inclusion, these are all noble goals. Representation is good. Having a company that looks like the country is a good thing.

But there's a world in which these things can go too far. And the identity politics, I think to many in this country feel like it became so front and center. And I juxtapose Hillary Clinton in 2016. I'm with her. I'm going to be the first woman. I'm going to shatter the glass ceiling really leaning into that.

It was notable to me that Kamala Harris wasn't really talking about that. They weren't leading with, I'm a woman, I'm a woman of color, I'm going to be the first. But to me, that was almost a tacit understanding by her campaign that people were sick of vote for me because I'm X.

It's more, I want to vote for you because you're the most qualified person. But I think that Democrats were so far down the path since 2016, 2020, that a lot of voters just didn't see it that way. And she kind of got lumped in with that, she's part of the identity politics. BERMAN: For 30 seconds left here, I mean, how do Democrats -- I assume there are a lot of Democrats don't want to necessarily abandon these efforts, so how do they then approach them?

ALLISON: Look, I'm not in the business of giving hot takes in 2024 on why Democrats lost the election. What I will say is that there is a lot of accusatory language, I think, right now about being woke, about being the DEI, all of those things.

The people who ran this campaign were Democrats. So I just say like everybody should take a beat and look in the mirror.

BERMAN: All right. Ashley, Alyssa, and Shermichael, I appreciate it. Everyone, have a wonderful Thanksgiving.

Up next --

SINGLETON: Happy Thanksgiving, John.

BERMAN: Strange shift here. A terrifying ordeal, a Kentucky man nearly became a full organ donor, even though he was still alive, leading to an investigation and calls for changes. The report from our Dr. Sanjay Gupta ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:42:15]

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight, an unbelievable story of a man who nearly became a full organ donor, even though he was still alive. It's hard to believe. So our Dr. Sanjay Gupta went to Kentucky to investigate for himself. He joins us now. Sanjay?

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: You know, I got to tell you, this is one of those stories that was really hard to tell and I hesitated to tell it because I worry that there might be some erosion of trust in the organ donation system.

You got 100,000 people who are on the list, 17 people die every day. But I think it was pretty clear as well that some pretty significant reforms may be necessary.

(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)

GUPTA: Tell me about that day.

DONNA RHORER, TJ HOOVER'S SISTER: We were there saying our goodbyes. That was it. We felt like we were doing the right thing as a family. And they were trying to kill me. We had made the decision to remove him from life support because we were told, you know, he was brain dead.

GUPTA (voice-over): What you are watching is the honor walk. It's one of the most revered traditions in a hospital. It's when family, friends and staff all pay their respects as someone is wheeled off to give the ultimate gift. Donation of their organs. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's OK.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE)

GUPTA (voice-over): Except this man, TJ Hoover, was still very much alive.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE).

NYCKI MARTIN, WHO WATCHES TJ'S HONOR WALK: I think organ donation is a beautiful, lifesaving gift when it's done ethically. I was just scrolling through TikTok about different kind of donation stories, and there was a little search bar across the bottom that said he woke up during his honor walk.

So I watched it, and the people looked familiar, the hospital looked familiar, and I said, that's -- this is our donor. I don't know if it makes me more sad or pissed off about him.

It's a very emotional thing for me because nobody should have to go through that. And I just feel like there were so many opportunities for someone to step in and say, we're not doing the right thing.

Nycki Martin worked for Kentucky Organ Donor Affiliates, or KODA. It's known as an organ procurement organization, responsible for recovering organs from deceased donors. Nycki was so disturbed by what happened to TJ that she penned a letter to Congress, trying to bring more attention to cases like his.

MARTIN: I believe in organ donation, and I'm devoted much of my life to it. However, in too many parts of the country like Kentucky, it's unsafe and I'm pleading with the government to change that.

GUPTA: Do you remember when you were driving to the hospital that day?

MARTIN: Mm-hmm.

[20:45:01]

GUPTA (voice-over): What did you hear that sort of triggered as he alarm bells?

MARTIN: The tracking with his eyes and moving around, trying to pull his tube out, trying to move his hands away. Just all of the reflexes that he had. Normally our DCD donors don't have those kinds of reflexes and they're not awake and they're not, you know, conscious of what's going on. So it was kind of really shocking for all of us to know that KODA's admin was pushing to continue.

GUPTA: Is this money? I mean, is that the incentive fundamentally?

MARTIN: I think for KODA it is, or for any OPO, you know, they're paid for the organs.

GUPTA: You think of organs as being a gift of life. But what you're describing is a big money making operation, and that's really, you think, what sort of incentivized that push.

MARTIN: Yes.

GUPTA (voice-over): In a statement to CNN, Network of Hope said that KODA does not, quote, "receive financial incentives based on the number of organs recovered," and that its focus is on compassion for the not on pressure.

Baptist Health Hospital wrote to CNN that they work closely with our patients and their families to ensure patients' wishes for organ donation are followed. And KODA said it reviewed the case and remains confident that accepted DCD practices and approved protocols were followed.

When asked about the specific accusations by Nycki, KODA said "she was not present in the hospital" and added "this case has been inaccurately represented by individuals never involved in the case".

GUPTA: So, we did track down someone who was in the operating room that day, and did see what happened first hand. Her name is Natasha Miller, she's a transplant perfusionist, and I'm driving to see her now.

From what I understand, he was mouthing the word no and pushing hands away and things like that.

NATASHA MILLER, ORGAN PERFUSIONIST: Yes, he was very aware. The pronouncing physician comes in. And when she comes in, she walks back out and she says, I'm not doing this. I'm not doing this case. I don't feel comfortable. The organ coordinator that was there, she steps out to call the supervisor at the time to tell him that the pronouncing physician was refusing to do the case.

She said that he was yelling at her, telling her she needed to find another physician to come. And she's like, there is no one, there's no one else to come do this case.

GUPTA (voice-over): Is there any part of this that makes sense to you? Is any part of this defensible?

MILLER: No, because it seemed like at first they were saying, well, family consented, family consented, family consented. And I get that. But, again, it seems like family wasn't made fully aware of his actual state. None of it makes sense. We should have never went to OR.

About an hour and hour and 15 minutes later, the doctor come out, got us in a -- told us to pull up a chair. She said, he's not ready. He woke up.

TJ HOOVER, ORGAN DONOR: (SINGING)

GUPTA (voice-over): That's right. That's TJ, who is now home.

I just want to check your strength here. Can you pull your hand towards your face?

HOOVER: I can.

GUPTA: Try and touch your nose. That's pretty strong. Good. How about with this, this hand? Can you do it here?

I know you told me that this first thing that he really remembers is being in the operating room and having all these people around him. But have you been able to explain to him everything that happened the same way you explained it to me?

RHORER: I have.

GUPTA: How does he react?

RHORER: Why did they want to kill me? Of course, he remembers he was an organ donor and he has survivor's guilt. He's like, all of these people thought they were going to get to live.

Left, right, left.

I was a registered organ donor and I'm not anymore.

GUPTA: Really? Because you don't trust the system.

RHORER: I don't trust the system.

GUPTA: What is TJ's life like now?

RHORER: He wasn't supposed to make it a year, if he made it.

Hold your head up, love.

GUPTA (voice-over): For TJ, it's not just about being alive, but living and getting to be a part of these moments. Like walking his sister down the aisle. And meeting Nycki for the very first time.

MARTIN: Hi, TJ.

HOOVER: Hi.

MARTIN: Do you know how special you are?

HOOVER: No.

MARTIN: You don't. You're pretty special, bud. So many reasons.

RHORER: You survived, bud.

MARTIN: You're my hero, TJ.

(END VIDEO TAPE)

COOPER: I mean, this story is incredible. I've actually signed up to be an organ donor. How is TJ doing?

GUPTA (on-camera): Yes, and I signed up to be an organ donor as well, just to be clear, because I know, again, I worry about this erosion of trust. He's doing really well. You know, the most remarkable thing is that he kind of felt bad, that he did not get a chance to donate his organs.

COOPER: Wow.

[20:50:04]

GUPTA (on-camera): Because he -- it was like one of those things where he felt he could have saved so many lives. I think what's really at the heart of this story are people who are just marginalized. He went in as a person who had overdosed on drugs.

His sister, they felt that maybe she didn't understand everything that was going on. And I feel like they sort of were taken advantage of a bit in the system. But he is -- he's doing really well. There's a huge investigation that's now going on by the Kentucky Attorney General's office.

And I'll tell you, sadly, there are other incidents like this in other states that are now starting to come to light, Anderson.

COOPER: Just incredible. I'm so glad you did this. Thanks, Sanjay.

GUPTA (on-camera): Yes.

COOPER: And next, a preview of Anderson's moving conversation with actress, author and mental health advocate Ashley Judd. She talks about the grief she has faced since her mother, country music star Naomi Judd, died by suicide. A preview of Anderson's podcast, All There Is, coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:55:34]

BERMAN: Latest episode of All There Is, Anderson's podcast about grief and loss is available right now. This week you will hear from actress and author Ashley Judd, who talks about the death of her mother, country music superstar Naomi Judd, by suicide more than two years ago.

Here's Anderson with more.

(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)

(SINGING)

COOPER (voice-over): On April 11th, 2022, Naomi Judd and her daughter, Wynonna, one of the biggest country duos of all time performed at the country music television awards. The song co-written by Naomi was "Love Can Build A Bridge".

(SINGING)

COOPER (voice-over): This was Naomi Judd's last performance. She died 19 days later by suicide. Her daughter, Ashley, actress, author, and mental health advocate first spoke about it in this interview just 12 days later.

ASHLEY JUDD, DAUGHTER OF NAOMI JUDD: Because we don't want it to be a part of the gossip economy, I will share with you that she used a weapon. Mother used a firearm.

COOPER (voice-over): Ashley Judd had never spoken publicly in depth about those final moments of her mother's life and the trauma and grief that she's been living with until our conversation earlier this year.

JUDD: My mother's death was traumatic and unexpected because it was death by suicide and I found her. My grief was in lockstep with trauma because of the manner of her death and the fact that I found her.

I held my mother as she was dying and there was blood and I just needed to like process the fact that I was with my mother's blood. I'm so glad I was there. Because even when I walked in that room and I saw that she had harmed herself, the first thing out of my mouth was, Mama, I see how much you've been suffering.

COOPER: You said that to her.

JUDD: And it is OK. It is OK to go. It's OK to go. I am here. It is OK to let go. I love you. Go see your daddy. Go see Papa Chud (ph). Go be with your people.

COOPER: And she heard you?

JUDD: Oh, she heard me. And I just got in the bed with her and held her and talked to her and said, "Let it all go. Be free. All was forgiven long ago. All was forgiven long ago. Leave it all here. Take nothing with you. Just be free."

COOPER: It's an extraordinary blessing that you were able to do that.

JUDD: Oh, it was -- I'm so thankful I was there.

COOPER (voice-over): One of the reasons I wanted to talk with Ashley for my podcast was that I still struggle with my brother Carter's suicide 36 years ago.

One of the things that -- sorry.

JUDD: I'm here, Anderson.

COOPER: One of the things I have found so hard about losing my brother to suicide was a, the -- I get stuck in how his life ended. The violence of it, and he killed himself in front of my mom. And also the realization that -- and my shock over it, and the realization that I didn't really know him. And I'm wondering if the manner of your mom's death made you question how much you knew her.

JUDD: Thank you so much for sharing that. All our stories are sacred, and I really honor the place in you that that's coming from. And I think we all deserve to be remembered for how we lived. And how we died is simply part of a bigger story.

(END VIDEO TAPE)

BERMAN: If you or someone you love is struggling, help is available. Please call or text the Nationwide Suicide and Crisis Lifeline at 988. And you'll find the full episode of Anderson's conversation with Ashley Judd on a podcast wherever you get your podcasts. You can also point your camera to the QR code on the screen and click on the link.

The news continues. The Source with Kaitlan Collins starts now.