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Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees
Drone Sightings Spread Beyond New Jersey; FBI New York Says They Got Tip From San Francisco Police About Mangione; Kennedy's Lawyer Has Asked The Food And Drug Administration To Revoke Approval Of The Polio Vaccine; How Trump Went From Ready To Ditch Hegseth To Fully Backing Him Within 48 Hours; Attorney Asked FDA To Revoke Polio Vaccine Approval, He's Now An Adviser To HHS Secretary Pick RFK Jr.; McConnell Defends Polio Vaccine, Calls Skeptics "Dangerous"; Inside The Fight Against Measles Vaccine Skepticism; 2006 Duke Lacrosse Rape Accuser Admits She Lied; Trump: GOP Will Try To Eliminate Daylight Saving Time. Aired 8-9p ET
Aired December 13, 2024 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DEBRA TICE, MOTHER OF AUSTIN TICE, AMERICAN JOURNALIST HELD IN SYRIA SINCE 2012: We certainly hope that he is released.
We're sort of getting the vibe about, you know, be patient. This could take some time kind of thing, but, you know, whatever. Whenever he walks out, we're going to put our arms around him and we're going to move on with the rest of our lives.
ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: This is another American who was just freed after the Assad regime's fall. We've just learned Travis Timmerman is on his way back to the US. He was flown out of Syria by the US military after being released from captivity earlier this week.
Thanks for joining us, and have a good weekend. AC360 starts now.
[20:00:36]
JOHN BERMAN, CNN HOST: Tonight on 360, the highest ranking government official yet weighs in on all the unidentified drone sightings and a local official where it's happening weighs in on what he was told about calling the bomb squad if one goes down in his city.
Also, tonight, new developments with the alleged CEO assassin, whether he will fight extradition back to New York and when before his arrest, he showed up on the FBI's radar.
And later, candidate Trump promised to let Robert F. Kennedy Jr. go wild on health. The question tonight, will that include going after the vaccine that nearly wiped polio off the face of the earth?
Good evening. John Berman here in for Anderson. And though there is still no definitive answer as to what is with all the large drones people in New Jersey and other nearby states think they are spotting in the skies at night, at least one Jersey locality is being told that if one happens to fall from the sky to handle it with care, extreme care, as in call the county bomb squad. That is what Michael Melham told us. He is the mayor of Belleville, just North of Newark. He says, that advice, which his emergency coordinator shared with him after recent state level meetings, also included this item. Local fire departments, he says, were told to wear hazmat suits when they respond. As we said, it's not just New Jersey anymore. There have now been spotting in New York and Connecticut where state police have just set up a drone detection system, and Maryland.
Take a look at this. This is footage from the former governor, Larry Hogan, who lives about 45 miles south of Baltimore. He says he saw what appeared to be dozens of large drones in the sky for about 45 minutes, starting at about quarter to ten last night. He says people are clamoring for answers from the government, but are not, he says, getting any, a notion the White House today acknowledged.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ADM. JOHN KIRBY (RET), COORDINATOR FOR STRATEGIC COMMUNICATIONS AT THE NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL: I wish I could tell you exactly why we don't have an answer for you here in the afternoon on the 13th of December, but I can tell you that we are working on it very, very hard to know because we want to answer those questions the same as those folks in New Jersey want answers --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BERMAN: So, federal officials insist there is no threat to the public, saying many of the reported sightings are actually just normal airplanes and helicopters.
But today, New Jersey Governor Phil Murphy said he is formally requesting additional resources from the Biden administration to help figure out exactly what is going on.
And tonight, the president-elect weighed in on social media, quoting, "Can this really be happening without our governments knowledge? I don't think so. Let the public know. And now otherwise shoot them down."
Now, shortly after that posting, DHS Secretary Alejandro Mayorkas told CNN's Wolf Blitzer, "we know of no threat" to the American public.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ALEJANDRO MAYORKAS, US HOMELAND SECURITY SECRETARY: What we have done is we have deployed our state of the art technology. We've deployed our experts to New Jersey. That technology has not confirmed any drone sightings.
In addition, it has confirmed that some reported drone sightings are in fact small aircraft. Pilots have not reported seeing drones. That's not to say that there aren't drones you know, flying in the air, but we have no concern at this point with respect to a threat or any nefarious activity.
(END VIDEO CLIP) BERMAN: So in just a moment, one drone in the New Jersey sky, we know everything about it will be flying over our Gary Tuchman for his report coming up on all the non-nefarious non-mysterious, perfectly good reasons. You might see a drone overhead.
First, though, CNN chief law enforcement and intelligence analyst John Miller and Juliette Kayyem, CNN senior national security analyst and former assistant DHS secretary.
So, John, you think we'd get a little more from Secretary Mayorkas. They've deployed teams, they've deployed technology. They have no confirmed drone sightings. They have some airplanes and some maybe drones, but really no definitive answer as to exactly what they are, exactly what people are seeing. So, what do you make of how adamant he is there is nothing nefarious.
JOHN MILLER, CNN CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT AND INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: Well, I think he's adamant that the teams he sent up there haven't seen it. They probably have the expertise.
I also think it's plain and reasonable to assume, more than assume that there is a little bit of reporting contagion now spurred by us. And, you know, all of the stories where people are now looking for it and seeing things that they think maybe drones and, you know, in the distance when you see planes stacked up over the runway in a flight pattern and they're spread out and they're in a line, and then they start to land, you could say, well, there was a group of them over there.
[20:05:12]
You know, people have seen Starlink things flying and said, well, that was drones. And then some people are quite certain that they've seen drones.
I just think, you know, if you look at the history of some of the confirmed sightings, particularly at military locations, you have 2024 drone incursions reported at the US Air Bases in England, 2023 the Pentagon confirms that in October 2024, so, it took them a while to confirm it that a fleet of unidentified drones flew over restricted airspace in Norfolk, Virginia, near the SEAL team 6 training headquarters and near an Air Force base for 17 days. There's a lot of professionals who saw these October 2023 drones flying over government sites in Nevada.
So, we know that this happens. The question is, when it does happen, what is it? And is this one of those.
BERMAN: So Juliette, again, Mayorkas said some may be airplanes or some are airplanes, he said some, he also noted, were multiple sightings of the same object, maybe six people reporting one drone. But beyond that, there was no definitive this-is-what-people-are- seeing. So one of the concerns people have is, is transparency.
How would you rate the level of transparency now were getting from DHS? JULIETTE KAYYEM, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Well, I think the administration was a little slow in picking up how social media and how all of us, how people respond to this, especially since it's been going on in November.
I also think John Kirby was a little bit more ambiguous than when Secretary Mayorkas comes on a couple of hours later and basically was, no pun intended, shooting it down.
I mean, he basically was saying everything that we can see now has an explanation. The best way the people -- viewers can understand this is, is for those of us who are in the water or surfers or whatever, there's an app that shows shark activity and it's a sort of crowdsourced app. And so everyone says, oh, there's a shark and there's a shark and there's a shark. And then you realize all of a sudden people are just reporting that there's sharks in the water, right?
And Mayorkas is basically saying there are drones in the sky. And now that we're all looking at it, people are seeing more drones. I'm not saying he's accurate or that that, as John rightly put, some of these drones are over areas you don't want them to be. But I was surprised how adamant Mayorkas was finally.
And I do want to say something about the president-elect. We have strict rules on shooting down things in the air for a variety of reasons of most local and state and certainly the private sector can't do it. The public ought not to do it. So I don't know how to understand his message. It sort of suggests that the public should try to do it. You don't do it because the debris lands on homes and people, and it's a very dangerous response.
So, shooting them down is not a response. But if there is more to learn, certainly it should be disclosed.
BERMAN: You know, John, there seems to be a little bit of a state federal divide here. Also, you know, the New Jersey Governor Phil Murphy, requested more resources to deal with this. I guess more resources for what exactly? They don't know what it is. And how is that divide going right now?
MILLER: Well, I mean, you think about it, you've got people -- mayors, county executives demanding answers from the governor, the governor asking the State Police to deploy resources. Footnote here, State Police helicopters deploy, they spot what they think is drones. The drones turn their lights off and take off and can't be chased in the darkness.
So, you know, they're involved. But I think there is also the FBI, then opens an investigation into the drones out of the Newark office. So there's a lot of arms of the government.
The White House is saying we have no evidence to suggest that its foreign or a threat to public safety. And I think in the local government, to get to the core of your question, they're kind of taking a step back and saying, you know what, let the Feds answer this.
And then the question is, is it a foreign incursion? That could be less likely Is it the Department of Defense red teaming some of these spaces to test their reaction time and trying to keep a lid on it so it remains effective? Or is it a lot of people seeing airplanes after seeing some suspicious drones?
BERMAN: We will see. We will see if Secretary Mayorkas comments tonight sort of dampens the furor that has been going on over this. Juliette Kayyem, John Miller, thank you very much.
KAYYEM: Thank you.
BERMAN: John is going to be back with us shortly with new developments in the case against the suspected CEO killer. Right now, to Juliette's remark that there are, in fact, drones in the sky. Gary Tuchman joins us now in New Jersey with that side of the story.
[20:10:04]
GARY TUCHMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: John, with drones in the news, we are at the drone port at Warren Community College in Warren County, New Jersey, in the northwestern section of the state. There is a state of the art drone program here for students. You are looking at very large drones. I am holding right now a small drone. This is the kind of drone that CNN and other news organizations use to get video from the sky.
With us is Dr. Will Austin. He's the president of this college. He's also an expert in aviation and unmanned aviation, also in drones.
First of all, I know you're going to tell me you don't think what people are seeing and reporting is nefarious. We'll have more on that in a minute. But first, why is this large drones used? What are the applications?
DR. WILLIAM AUSTIN, PRESIDENT OF WARREN COUNTY COMMUNITY COLLEGE: So the first one is used for agricultural spraying. This is used for power line inspection or search and rescue. This smaller one is used for cell tower inspection and this orange one here is used for land surveying.
TUCHMAN: Okay, we have a large one here. Adam Kyle is over here. He's going to operate this drone, take off, Adam. We can? So this is what --
AUSTIN: This is also an agricultural drone. So normally not fly at night.
TUCHMAN: Okay, so one of the things we keep hearing from people, from citizens and politicians is they see things in the sky that are the size of cars and they're very concerned and scared. First of all, can you tell how big a drone is when it's in the sky?
AUSTIN: Now, the most amazing thing is that's going to look larger to us here, standing on the ground than it did when it was sitting on the ground, and it's going to look smaller on your screen when you take the video. So it depends on perspective with some of these things.
TUCHMAN: Adam is moving it side to side, right now. Airplanes can move side to side with the pilot there. So maybe they are drones that are being seen.
AUSTIN: Oh I believe people are seeing a lot of drones since Thanksgiving because they're putting up their personal drones. And again, once those are in the sky, it's very hard to differentiate one aircraft from another.
TUCHMAN: How do you know it's not China or Iran doing this?
AUSTIN: Well, the reason I know is because they would turn the lights off because those lights are on that drone so another aircraft doesn't hit it. And so a pilot in the sky can avoid it. And it is not put there for us on the ground to be able to see them.
TUCHMAN: So, what do you think is going on right now with all these reports out there? I mean, there are serious politicians who are saying these should be shot down.
AUSTIN: Yes, you wouldn't want to shoot this down because if you hit the light bulb battery, you might set the whole forest on fire or your house or hurt someone. But what you want to -- and its illegal, but really, you don't really need to be afraid of the drones, even if there are drones up there.
I think what's happening is people are seeing what's known as the parallax effect, which makes planes look like they are not moving. We teach this here as part of our program.
TUCHMAN: But you're saying bad actors can use satellites to get information. They don't want to do that.
AUSTIN: Correct.
TUCHMAN: So finally, do you have any worries whatsoever?
AUSTIN: I have no worries, I'm going to sleep very well this entire month and enjoy Christmas.
TUCHMAN: John, to reiterate, there are many people who are very concerned about this and they have the right to be. But you just heard reassuring words from an expert on drones -- John.
BERMAN: Yes, for sure that was reassuring. Do you need FAA approval to fly the large drones, Gary?
TUCHMAN: Well, the small drones, no. And most large drones, no but any drone that's over 55 pounds, including the biggest one we just showed you on the ground that needs approval from the FAA to put it in the air.
BERMAN: Very interesting, but the smaller drones and larger drones, generally speaking, though, as John Miller just told me, off camera. By and large, fry flying drones is legal. Shooting them down is illegal, which answers a lot of the questions that people are posing right now.
Gary Tuchman that was a really interesting report. Thank you so much for being out there.
Next, new reporting on what the FBI knew about the alleged killer. Luigi Mangione just days before his arrest and later, the vaccines that once all but wiped out polio. The confidant to incoming Health Secretary Robert F. Kennedy, Jr., who wants it off the market and what polio survivor Mitch McConnell just said about it all.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:18:08]
BERMAN: So add a new entry to the timeline of who knew what and when about alleged CEO killer Luigi Mangione.
The FBI's New York office tells CNN that agents there got a tip from the San Francisco Police that Mangione may have been their suspect.
Overnight, "The San Francisco Chronicle" reported that the FBI was notified about Mangione four days before his arrest on Monday at a McDonald's in Altoona, Pennsylvania, which would put the tip on the fifth the day after UnitedHealthcare CEO, Brian Thompson was gunned down in Midtown Manhattan.
The reason Mangione was even on the San Francisco Police radar is because of a missing person's report filed with them by his mother on November 18th. Now, Mangione is jailed in Pennsylvania right now awaiting extradition to New York on a second degree murder charge, something his lawyer said he would be fighting. But today, Manhattan District Attorney Alvin Bragg said maybe not.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ALVIN BRAGG, MANHATTAN DISTRICT ATTORNEY: Indications are that the defendant may waive, but that waiver is not complete until a court proceeding, which my understanding from court officials in Pennsylvania cannot happen until Tuesday.
So, until that time, we're going to continue to press forward on parallel paths and we'll be ready whether he is going to waive extradition or whether he's going to contest extradition.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BERMAN: All right, with us now is "The San Francisco Chronicle" crime reporter, Megan Cassidy, who broke the FBI tip story. John Miller is back with us and also with us, CNN senior legal analyst, Elie Honig.
And, Megan, I just want to start with you on this news that you broke overnight. Lay out your reporting about this tip from the San Francisco Police four days prior to Mangione's arrest.
MEGAN CASSIDY, CRIME REPORTER, SAN FRANCISCO CHRONICLE: Sure. We had been hearing some rumors about something like this for a few days now. A few days ago, we reported on the existence of a missing person's report in San Francisco of Luigi Mangione, and then yesterday we were able to confirm exactly what San Francisco Police did with that.
Apparently, there was somebody at SFPD that was looking into the missing person's case. And after the shooting of Brian Thompson recognized this person and called in this tip or e-mailed this tip to the FBI.
[20:20:24]
BERMAN: Called or e-mailed the tip to the FBI. So, John, I want to play what the New York Police Chief of Detectives, Joseph Kenny, said earlier this week about Mangione not being on their radar prior to this arrest. Let's watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: What's his name on your radar? Was he someone who you had been looking into before his arrest?
JOSEPH KENNY, NEW YORK POLICE CHIEF OF DETECTIVES: No, we did not have his name prior to today.
NEIL CAVUTO, FOX BUSINESS NETWORK HOST: It is interesting that it wasn't people who knew him who said, I know that guy. It was someone who could, from that picture alone, say, hey, this might be that guy.
KENNY: We received over 200 tips --
CAVUTO: Is that right?
KENNY: -- that we worked on, that we vetted, we aggressively looked at every single one of them, but not one of those tips named him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BERMAN: So John, again, earlier today, the FBI told CNN they received the tip from the San Francisco Police and then sent it to New York investigators during the manhunt. Is it clear if the New York team ran it down?
MILLER: So, what you have is kind of a moment in time here. So this tip comes from, I think, a victim witness specialist in the San Francisco Police Department who has that missing person's case somewhere in front of them and looks at that face and says, "Gee, that could be the guy that is on these FBI posters all over town."
So, SFPD sends that to San Francisco FBI, San Francisco FBI says that's a New York office case. They send it to the New York office. The New York office sends it to a violent crime squad, where you have a mix of FBI agents and NYPD officers who were task forcing together and they look at it and they do a workup on the name, you know, checking, you know, any indicators that that guy has been in New York, and then they send it over to NYPD.
So it gets into the NYPD officers at the FBI on Saturday, they do their work up. It gets into the NYPD on Sunday, and then it joins 200 viable leads that are being worked by that team. But then Monday morning at 9:15 in the McDonald's in Altoona, Pennsylvania, another tip leads to the capture.
So, you see, these leads are piling up, being tasked out and being worked. And this was in that pile coming up because it was a viable lead. It's just that destiny took a hand quicker.
BERMAN: That's interesting. Maybe it would have made a bigger deal had they got to it. But it was --
MILLER: And by the way, let me be clear about this. I've talked to the NYPD people and say anything you're upset with the FBI about, and I've talked to the FBI people, and I said anything that anybody's bent out of shape over here about and everybody says, no, this was the process working through.
BERMAN: All right, Elie, I emphasized that right now the charges are second degree murder. And all of us who've watched a lot of "Law and Order" think, wait a second, why isn't it first degree murder, we all think it is premeditated murder?
ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: This is the number one question people have been asking this week. So think of it this way. Under New York law, if you have an intentional murder, you start at second degree only under certain circumstances does it get bumped up to first degree, most of which are not applicable here. But there's one that might be that I'll talk about in a second.
So some of the factors that can bump it up to first degree, if your victim is a judge, if your victim is a cop, if your victim is a first responder, if there's torture involved, if it's a murder for hire.
The one that I do think might give a hook, maybe, to bump it up to first degree is if it's a terroristic act, meaning if the purpose is to intimidate a civilian population, or if the purpose is to try to influence a government agency or government policy.
So if we look at some of the rantings about the healthcare system, there may be an argument there. I wouldn't do that if I was a prosecutor, because you're making your own job that much harder. You have a second degree murder, intentional murder. The evidence seems overwhelming on that point, so I wouldn't want to go out on a limb, but that would be if they wanted to try to ratchet it up to first degree, that would be the way they might try.
BERMAN: And of course, there may ultimately be a federal case, too, because he crossed state lines. It seems to do all this.
Megan, you've got some reporting on Mangione's mother filing a police report in San Francisco in November. What did she tell authorities about her son at that time?
CASSIDY: At that time, she said that she had not spoken to him since July 1st, and that she had believed that he was working in the city at a company called TrueCar, at a specific address in San Francisco. And that that company, TrueCar confirmed to us and a lot of other news outlets that Mangione had not been working for them since 2023. And the specific address that the mother gave to police, apparently was never a location of TrueCar.
So it's still really unclear whether somebody was confused in that or what happened. But she had also told police that the number for that location of TrueCar was not in service either.
BERMAN: All right, thank you very much, everyone.
So he's an adviser for HHS Secretary Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. and he has also asked the FDA to revoke its approval of the polio vaccine. Here's what Republican Senator Mitch McConnell, a polio survivor, has to say about that, ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:29:40]
BERMAN: All right, it's been a busy week for President-elect Trump's nominees on Capitol Hill, including Pete Hegseth the president-elect's embattled pick for Defense secretary.
A week ago, his effort to lead the Pentagon seemed in trouble as he continued to deny allegations of misconduct, including claims of sexual assault years ago. But Hegseth has pushed ahead, meeting with senators who will eventually vote on his nomination, including the first Democrat, Senator John Fetterman, who told reporters afterward he would, "follow the process."
[20:30:10]
Meanwhile, we also have new reporting involving Robert F. Kennedy, Jr., the president-elect's choice for Health and Human Services secretary. While Mr. Trump has praised the polio vaccine as, "the greatest thing," we learned that an adviser to Kennedy, an attorney named Aaron Siri is seemingly an opponent of the vaccine.
Two years ago, Siri asked the FDA to revoke approval for the polio vaccine on behalf of a non-profit that challenges the safety of vaccines and mandates. The FDA told CNN today it is still reviewing the petition. Just a quick historical note here.
For generations, polio was an often crippling and sometimes deadly virus to anyone who caught it, especially children. For parents, every outbreak was a living terror. The polio vaccine put an end to that nightmare.
But now, regardless of what the President-elect says praising the polio vaccine, a vaccine skeptic is set to run HHS, which oversees the FDA. And the New York Times is reporting that this attorney, Aaron Siri, who has called for the FDA to stop authorization of the polio vaccine, is helping Kennedy review candidates for top jobs at HHS.
More now on all these developments from CNN Political Analyst and New York Times Senior Political Correspondent Maggie Haberman. Maggie, happy Friday night to you. I want to start with Hegseth. You had reporting a while back that President-elect Trump had grown tired of hearing all the negative stories about him and was poised to move on. But what's changed his mind?
MAGGIE HABERMAN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Sure, John, I think it's still true that he was tired and is tired of negative stories. And what changed was a couple of things. One was he could not find, Trump could not find, a single person in his orbit or even really outside of it who liked this idea of making Ron DeSantis, the governor of Florida, the Defense Secretary choice.
So, and it was not, you know, we're going to drop Hegseth and going to look for a bunch of other people. It was Hegseth or DeSantis at that point. And so Trump was persuaded also after a call from Pete Hegseth to let Hegseth go out and see if he could fight his way past some of these stories.
After Hegseth was announced, after a bunch of these Cabinet appointees were announced, they were -- or nominees were announced, they were not permitted to go on television. And that essentially left them with their hands tied behind their back.
In the case of Hegseth, he had -- and basically a death or near death by a thousand cuts. There had been just one negative headline after another alleging problematic behavior across a broad spectrum. Trump told Hegseth, fine, go out and fight and let's see if we can get past this.
Hegseth gave an interview to Megyn Kelly, his mother, who had written him a 2018 email describing him as behaving poorly toward women over a long period of time, also gave an interview.
And you saw this movement most significantly, John, that this conservative now MAGA movement really, really activated online, on digital ads, making a target specifically of Senator Joni Ernst of Iowa to try to get her to a yes.
BERMAN: How confident at this point is Trump world that he will get confirmed Hegseth? And is there still an operative plan B?
HABERMAN: Look, I don't think there's an operative plan B. There is, remains, you know, a lingering awareness that something could come up. There could be more. Hegseth himself is said to be aware that, you know, there are potentially going to be other stories.
He and people in Trump's world have said they don't anticipate that any revelations will come that would impact the hearing. Who knows? But they are feeling vastly better about it today than they did a week ago.
BERMAN: So we're talking about Robert F. Kennedy Jr., the president- elect's choice for Health and Human Services secretary. He's staffing up the department. And we have this lawyer that is working with him, Aaron Siri, who petitioned the FDA to revoke the approval of the polio vaccine, a vaccine that has spared millions of people from the prospects of paralysis or death. So Trump has indulged RFK Jr.'s, some of his, you know, debunked anti- vax conspiracy theories before. What's your sense of how much he wants to be associated now with this person who has tried to revoke approval for the polio vaccine?
HABERMAN: Well, I don't know how much Trump necessarily wants to be associated with Siri. Certainly RFK does. Trump is giving RFK pretty broad latitude here. He has given him a lot of rope, so much so that a bunch of people in Trump's world and outside it have been a little surprised at how much leeway RFK is getting, not just in terms of health and human services, but, you know, pushing his daughter-in-law to be the deputy director of the CIA, you know, for example.
And he is weighing in various ways in this government. Trump is also a vaccine skeptic, at least in terms of childhood vaccines and when children get them. We have heard him say this over time. He also made clear he's not a polio vaccine skeptic.
So I think, John, it's an open question as to how much latitude RFK Jr. is going to have to do things the way he wants versus, you know, when -- or will Trump step in. Trump is very, very reactive to press coverage, as you know.
[20:35:07]
And so, if there's a lot of press coverage about diseases rising because of things that RFK has done, I think that could impact Trump.
BERMAN: Let me just read Mitch McConnell's statement, a polio survivor. He won't be the Republican leader, but he's still a reasonably powerful Republican senator. He says, "Efforts to undermine public confidence in proven cures are not just uninformed -- they're dangerous. Anyone seeking the Senate's consent to serve in the incoming administration would do well to steer clear of even the appearance of association with such efforts".
So I do wonder, inside Trump world, if there's any concern that Mitch McConnell may get in the way of RFK -- or try to of RFK's nomination.
HABERMAN: Look, there's a lot of concern within Trump world about senators in general trying to raise issues during RFK's confirmation hearings, even if people eventually vote for him. I think there's a number of issues that will come up in questioning.
Mitch McConnell is clearly signaling that that is going to be one of those questions. RFK Jr. is historically pro-choice. That's another issue of concern for some of Trump's supporters on the conservative right. So there's a number of issues -- and for some Republican senators.
There's a number of issues that are going to come up already. And this just becomes another one, to your point, that sort of pokes at certain senators.
BERMAN: Maggie, great to see you. Thanks so much for being with us tonight. HABERMAN: Thanks, John.
BERMAN: So more now on vaccine hesitancy in this country, as we've been discussing, and not just tonight. Doctors and health officials are fighting disinformation from many fronts, including social media and anti-vax groups attempting to defy years of scientific studies, proving vaccines are safe.
CNN's Whitney Wild shows us how that is playing out in Minnesota and other areas with the measles vaccine.
(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)
WHITNEY WILD, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT CORRESPONDENT: Hi.
DR. STACENE MAROUSHEK, HENNEPIN HEALTHCARE PEDIATRIC CLINIC: I'm Stacene.
WILD: Nice to meet you. I'm Whitney.
MAROUSHEK: Hi.
WILD: Thank you so much. So tell us all what's going on today.
MAROUSHEK: So this is not one of my patients. It's one of my colleagues' patients, but they just refused their measles vaccine.
WILD (voice-over): Encouraging parents to stay up to date on vaccinations for their kids is routine for Dr. Stacene Maroushek at the Hennepin County Health Care's Pediatric Clinic in Minneapolis.
MAROUSHEK: We'll see you back in a year. All right. Take care of you guys.
People forget how diseases used to kill kids. We essentially had white measles out in the United States. But then because of the vaccine rates plummeting over the last several years, now once those people come back into a community that has a low vaccine rate, it just goes like crazy and, poof, there's your outbreak.
WILD (voice-over): Minnesota is now over its worst outbreak in seven years, health officials say, which infected 70 and sent many to the hospital.
WILD: Do you know immediately that's the measles?
JENN DRYER, EMERGENCY ROOM NURSE, HENNEPIN COUNTY MEDICAL CENTER: There's a pretty significant rash that partners with it. So it'll be fever, rash, runny nose, kind of the red eyes. Typically children are more at risk. It's that significant respiratory infection.
WILD: Have you seen pretty severe cases?
DRYER: Yes.
WILD (voice-over): With the bulk of Minnesota's infections in Hennepin County, emergency room nurses and doctors find themselves on the outbreak frontline again.
WILD: What does it feel like when you're like, oh my God, these numbers are ticking up. This could be really bad. What does it feel like for you?
DRYER: You certainly get very anxious. You worry about the supplies that you have on hand. You worry about the staff. Will you have the resources? Is this the outbreak that's going to break you?
WILD (voice-over): Nationally, the CDC says there have been 16 outbreaks in 2024. There were just four in 2023 and more than half of the children under five who got sick had to be hospitalized. And the numbers for kindergartners starting school fully vaccinated are dropping nationwide.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: One more. Last one, last one, last one.
KADEER ALI (PH), FATHER: One more.
She got five shots including the polio, including the flu, including the pox.
WILD (voice-over): Her father skipped the MMR vaccine, not because of her pain, but because of his fear.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I've heard a lot of news going around that if someone takes the MMR, get autistic.
WILD: Where did you hear that?
ALI: I watched it from the YouTube.
WILD: From YouTube?
ALI: Yes. Also, I heard -- I've heard from the parents who have already, have autistic child.
WILD: Something you're seeing every day?
MAROUSHEK: Every day, multiple times a day. All perceived fear of autism. Some people you can talk into a vaccine. Some people, they're just like, no.
WILD (voice-over): There is no link between autism and the MMR vaccine or any other vaccine. And yet families believe the possibility exists and take the risk.
ALI: My first son, he suffered from measles.
WILD: Oh, you had a son with a measles?
ALI: Yes. He was in the hospital, in intensive unit.
WILD (voice-over): The skepticism could further be fueled by incoming President Trump's choice to name a known anti-vax crusader to the head of the nation's sprawling Department of Health and Human Services. WILD: What is the biggest risk of vaccine disinformation? I mean, are you worried more people are going to die?
DRYER: Absolutely.
WILD (voice-over): Whitney Wild, CNN, Minneapolis.
(END VIDEO TAPE)
BERMAN: Perspective now on all this from Dr. Peter Hotez. He is the co-director of the Center for Vaccine Development at Texas Children's Hospital and author of "The Deadly Rise of Anti-Science: A Scientist's Warning".
[20:40:06]
Dr. Hotez, great to see you again. So what goes through your mind --
DR. PETER HOTEZ, CO-DIRECTOR, CENTER FOR VACCINE DEVELOPMENT AT TEXAS CHILDREN'S HOSPITAL: Great to see you.
BERMAN: What goes through your mind when you hear that someone involved with staffing HHS has called for the government to revoke the polio vaccine's approval?
HOTEZ: Well, here's the big worry, John. This kind of anti-vaccine rhetoric is part of a larger coordinated disinformation campaign, and the consequences we're now seeing. We've had not only an increase in measles outbreaks, as was just reported from 4 to 16, from 2023 to 2024. We've had a five-fold rise in pertussis, otherwise known as whooping cough.
And now there's polio that's been reported in the wastewater in New York State in 2022. And as -- I'm not only -- you know, we've been talking about COVID vaccines for years now. I not only make vaccines, but I'm also a pediatrician, and I've taken care of children with congenital rubella syndrome.
So the MMR, the R part stands for rubella. It's devastating, right? It's microcephaly, it's cataracts, it's horrific heart disease and pneumonitis. I've taken care of kids with pertussis. It's called whooping cough because the Bordetella pertussis bacterium literally destroys the airways with a toxin in the child, and in desperation to catch some oxygen, gives a big whoop of inspiration.
I've taken care of kids intubated with measles. I've held the hand of parents who've watched their child die of Hib meningitis. All of that's going to come coming back because of this kind of anti-vaccine rhetoric and activism. And that's why it's important to speak out and really push back on this.
BERMAN: Just polio specifically, it was so interesting to hear from Mitch McConnell, a survivor, you know, hearkening back to the days when polio was a fear amongst so many families in this country. It predates my time, but you can hear it in Mitch McConnell, and that you see it in his writing there, his concern there. What would it be like if the polio vaccine was no longer available?
HOTEZ: John, this is a very fragile vaccine ecosystem. It doesn't take much for these diseases to come back. And that's -- and you've got to maintain constant vigilance. So the case, for instance, excuse me, of the measles, of the polio case that we had in a 20-year-old individual a couple of years ago who wasn't vaccinated, that could happen very easily.
And so all of these could look like they're on their way up and coming back fairly quickly. And we're not being out there enough, really countering the anti-vaccine rhetoric. And there is no relationship with any of these vaccines and autism.
And that's why I get so frustrated with people like Robert F. Kennedy Jr. He keeps on switching up what his actual assertions are. You know, he - it came out in 1998, there was a false claim that the measles, mumps, rubella, MMR vaccine was the cause of autism.
That was a paper that was retracted by The Lancet, the British medical journal, or was published. But not only that, the scientific community did large studies with hundreds and thousands of kids to show that kids who got the MMR vaccine were no more likely to acquire autism than kids who didn't. That should have been the end of it.
Then Robert F. Kennedy Jr. in 2005 wrote an article in Rolling Stone magazine, also co-published in Salon, claiming, OK, it's not the MMR vaccine, it's the thimerosal preservative that used to be in vaccine.
Once again, the scientific community spent a lot of resources and energy to disprove it. OK, then it was spacing vaccines too close together. Once again, we had to counter it. Then it was alum in vaccines. Then they said, OK, let's switch it up to the HPV vaccine for cervical cancer and other cancers that's causing infertility and autoimmunity, they claim.
There was total BS. There was no basis for it. Now they're saying it's something called chronic disease. So this is the modus operandi and we've got to put a stop to it.
BERMAN: Yes, and you were talking to Kate Bolduan this morning about your own conversations with RFK and how frustrating they were.
Dr. Peter Hotez, thank you for talking to us tonight and thank you for your work on this subject. Really appreciate it.
HOTEZ: Thank you.
BERMAN: Still ahead, the woman who shocked the country nearly 20 years ago by accusing three Duke lacrosse players of raping her shocks the country again by recanting. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:48:47]
BERMAN: A confession from the woman who accused three Duke University lacrosse players of raping her in 2006, she admits she lied. She talked about it in a podcast from prison where she's serving time for the murder of her boyfriend.
More now from Rand Kaye.
(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)
CRYSTAL MANGUM, ADMITS TO FABRICATING DUKE LACROSSE SCANDA: I made up a story that wasn't true.
RANDI KAYE, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A stunning admission from Crystal Mangum telling a podcaster that she lied when she accused three Duke men's lacrosse players of rape back in 2006.
MANGUM: I testified falsely against them by saying that they raped me when they didn't and that was wrong.
KAYE (voice-over): In 2006, Mangum claimed the three players raped her at a team party where she'd been hired as a stripper. Her story captured the attention of the nation.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Arrests have been made in what is already a notorious case.
KAYE (voice-over): The three Duke players were arrested. Their lives upended.
DAVIN EVANS, FORMER DUKE UNIVERSITY LACROSSE PLAYER: You have all been told some fantastic lies.
ALL: All rape has got to go. Hey, hey.
KAYE (voice-over): Protests erupted on campus, one of the largest outside the house where the party took place.
PROFESSOR KC JOHNSOIN, AUTHOR, "UNTIL PROVEN INNOCENT": A complete abandonment of any pretense of objectivity of any interest in the truth.
KAYE (voice-over): The players were charged with first degree rape, first degree sexual offense and kidnapping, despite the fact that there was no DNA evidence connecting them to the woman.
[20:50:06]
MIKE NIFONG, DURHAM COUNTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY: It doesn't mean nothing happened, it just means nothing was left behind.
KAYE (voice-over): During a lineup, District Attorney Mike Nifong had only shown pictures of Duke lacrosse players instead of including what's considered dummy photos, virtually guaranteeing she'd pin it on one of the players.
EVANS: I am innocent. Reade Seligmann is innocent. Collin Finnerty is innocent. Every member of the Duke University lacrosse team is innocent. KAYE (voice-over): The lacrosse team's entire season was canceled and Duke's head lacrosse coach was forced to resign. The questions and the chaos continued for more than a year until the woman's story fell apart.
Despite earlier claims, she told the DA she could no longer say for sure she'd been raped. The DA dropped the rape charge but pursued the other charges before recusing himself from the case, citing a conflict of interest.
The Attorney General's office took over.
ROY COOPER, NORTH CAROLINA ATTORNEY GENERAL DURING CASE: We believe that these cases were the result of a tragic rush to accuse and a failure to verify serious allegations.
KAYE (voice-over): Thirteen months after it all began in April 2007, then North Carolina Attorney General Roy Cooper declared the players innocent.
COOPER: Based on the significant inconsistencies between the evidence and the various accounts given by the accusing witness, we believe these three individuals are innocent of these charges.
KAYE (voice-over): Vindication gave way to elation.
EVANS: It's been 395 days since this nightmare began and finally today it's come to a closure.
COLLIN FINNERTY, FORMER DUKE UNIVERSITY LACROSSE PLAYER: Knowing I had the truth on my side was really the most comforting thing of all throughout the past year.
READE SELIGMANN, FORMER DUKE UNIVERSITY LACROSSE PLAYER: This entire experience has opened my eyes up to a tragic world of injustice I never knew existed.
KAYE (voice-over): Citing misconduct, Prosecutor Mike Nifong was later convicted of criminal contempt (technical difficulty) jailed. As for the (technical difficulty), she hopes to be forgiven.
MANGUM: I want them to know that I loved them and they didn't deserve that. And I hope they can forgive me.
(END VIDEO TAPE)
KAYE (on-camera): And John, today we haven't seen any comments or reaction from (technical difficulty) that the student newspaper at Duke University reached out to Duke Athletics, didn't get any comment. That paper also reached out to the university, the school's president, and the head coach of the men's lacrosse team at the time. Also, no comment there.
And as far as the accuser, John, she is expected to remain behind bars in prison until at least February 2026. She was sentenced to at least 14 years for fatally stabbing her boyfriend back in 2011. John? BERMAN: Randi Kaye, thank you very much for that.
So next, sick of changing your clocks twice a year? Well, apparently so is President-elect Trump. What that could mean for Daylight Saving Time, ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:57:38]
BERMAN: All right, so President-elect Trump added a new policy proposal to his incoming agenda. He posted this tonight on social media, quote, "The Republican Party will use its best efforts to eliminate Daylight Saving Time, which has a small but strong constituency, but shouldn't. Daylight Saving Time is inconvenient, and very costly for our nation".
CNN Senior Data Reporter, Harry Enten is with me now.
HARRY ENTEN, CNN SENIOR DATA REPORTER: Strong words.
BERMAN: Well, saving without the S.
ENTEN: Yes. He did it right.
BERMAN: He did it right.
ENTEN: Congratulations.
BERMAN: That's the strongest comment there. Look, there are strong feelings about this, Harry. What's the polling say about changing your clock twice a year?
ENTEN: What does the polling say? You know, they've asked it a number of times. I created a Harry's average across the polling. And in terms of folks who want to stop changing their clocks twice a year, look at this. The vast majority are in favor of it, are in favor of stop changing the clocks twice a year.
We're talking about two-thirds of the American public who is sick of changing the clock, only about a third are opposed to the idea. Of course, for me, I think it's interesting because, you know, as you were saying in the break, you don't actually have to change the clock. The phones do it for you.
BERMAN: There's no more changing of the clocks. It all happens automatically. OK, but if they did get rid of Daylight Saving, no S, Time --
ENTEN: Yes.
BERMAN: -- what would we change to?
ENTEN: Yes. This, I think, is sort of the key question, right? Because you have Daylight Saving Time when you jump forward an hour in the spring, right? You gain an hour at the end of the day and the sun rises later in the morning. Or you have standard time, right, which is when you fall back in the fall, right, where essentially you move the clocks back.
The sun sets earlier, but it also rises earlier. And basically, this is the whole problem, because the country is split on what the heck we would do if we go away from changing the clock twice a year, whereby a slight plurality say that we should go to Daylight Saving Time all year round.
But there's still a significant portion of the public who believes we should be on standard time the whole year round. And then you still have that about a third of the public who believes that we should keep the changing of the clocks twice a year.
Yes, we agree we should change the clocks. But what the heck are we supposed to change it to? It doesn't seem to me that we can agree on this.
BERMAN: So we did get rid of it for a second.
ENTEN: Yes. Yes, we did get rid of it for a second. So I want to take you back in the time machine, Mr. Berman. I want to take you all the way back to the year of 1974. You were a wee little lad back then. And of course, there was an oil crisis. There was an oil crisis.
So there was this idea, OK, in order to save energy, what we're going to do is we're going to have Daylight Saving Time all year round. Now, there's a big problem with that. There's a big problem.
Let's say you live in the city of Detroit. That means that in the winter, your sun won't rise until about 9:00 a.m. So kids go to school in the dark. So what happened was people turned against Daylight Saving Time all year round. The majority opposed it. Very few favored it.
So if we go to Daylight Saving Time all year round, I'm not sure people would necessarily like it.
BERMAN: Bottom line, people find a reason to complain. Harry Enten, not you, though.
ENTEN: And I never complained about you. Always --
BERMAN: You're always happy. Thank you very much. Have a great weekend.
ENTEN: You too, man.
BERMAN: You look good.
ENTEN: Thank you.
BERMAN: All right.
The news continues. The Source with Kaitlin Collins starts now.
