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Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees
Musk Derails Bill, Trump Demands Changes Just Before Deadline; Interview With Rep. Daniel Goldman (D-NY); Cheney The Focus Of Retribution From Trump After House GOP Issues January 6 Report; House Ethics Committee Votes To Release Matt Gaetz Ethics Report; Luigi Mangione Indicted For Murder As An Act of Terrorism In the Death Of UnitedHealthcare CEO; Russia Detains Uzbek National Over Assassination Of Senior General; Trump Slated To Meet Jeff Bezos At Mar-A-Lago. Aired 8-9p ET
Aired December 18, 2024 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DANNY FREEMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Though, as you noted in your intro, we did learn from CNN's Kara Scannell through sources, that the family is the one that is, in fact, paying for that high powered defense attorney that will be representing Luigi Mangione for those New York murder charges.
Meanwhile, Erin, I'll just preview what's going to be happening tomorrow here at the courthouse behind me, we're going to see a crush of media, a crush of law enforcement as Mangione makes what may be his final appearance in a Pennsylvania court before ultimately heading back to New York -- Erin.
ERIN BURNETTE, CNN HOST: All right, thank you very much Danny.
And thanks so much to all of you, AC360 starts now.
[20:00:34]
JIM SCIUTTO, CNN HOST: Tonight on 360, with the government just about two days from a shutdown, the president-elect throws a giant monkey wrench into his own party's efforts to stop it, but only after a very public push from Elon Musk.
Also tonight, what happens when the next president of the United States says, you could be in a lot of trouble? His Republican political opponent, former House January 6th Committee co-chair, Liz Cheney, just found out.
Later, what alleged CEO killer, Luigi Mangione will face in a Pennsylvania courtroom tomorrow and what he could be facing when he's brought back to New York to face murder charges as soon as tomorrow night.
Good evening. Jim Sciutto here sitting in for Anderson.
If you're looking for a preview of the kind of drama and potential dysfunction that could be coming when Donald Trump takes office, and everything changes when someone hits post on social media, you got a taste today and he's not even president yet, and he is not even the one who hit post. His new friend who nobody elected to do anything, by the way, did, and it could lead to a government shutdown Friday night at midnight.
Until this morning, that seemed at least somewhat unlikely. Republicans, who narrowly control the House and Democrats had agreed on a 1,500-page stopgap spending bill. A number of Republicans were unhappy with parts of that measure, but House Speaker Johnson was behind it.
Then Elon Musk, the multi-multi-billionaire man behind the curtain, if you will, posted this: "Any member of the House or Senate who votes for this outrageous spending bill deserves to be voted out in two years. Musk, along with Vivek Ramaswamy, is one of two unelected billionaires the president-elect has tapped to cut government spending." That post and dozens more from Musk was followed by a Trump-JD Vance joint statement calling for a spending bill, "without Democrat giveaways," calling anything else, "a betrayal of our country."
In a later post, Trump added another complication calling for lawmakers to raise the debt ceiling, which is always political dynamite, particularly for an incoming president who railed against debt ceiling increases under Democratic leadership, which, as you might imagine, has stopped everything cold now. Except, that is, for a simmering Republican rebellion against the House Speaker.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MANU RAJU, CNN SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: So you won't vote for him?
REP. THOMAS MASSIE (R-KY): He does not have my vote.
RAJU: Will you change your mind?
MASSIE: It would take a Christmas Miracle. We just won the elections. We have a mandate and he's giving away the farm. He's turned this thing into a Christmas Tree.
REP. RICH MCCORMICK, (R-GA): I'm wondering why we have control of Congress. If we're not going to do what we say we're going to do.
RAJU: Do you think the speaker, given the way he's handled this, deserves to be reelected on January 3rd?
MCCORMICK: I think there's going to be a debate on it if we're not careful, we'll be having some serious debate.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: That didn't take long. So now, we've got another GOP rebellion against another GOP Speaker underway. We've got a not yet president making demands spurred on by the world's richest man. And of course, a government to run, right before Christmas.
Joining us now, Daniel Goldman, Democratic Congressman from New York. Good to have you on. Thanks for taking the time tonight.
REP. DANIEL GOLDMAN (D-NY): Thanks for having me, Jim.
SCIUTTO: So, I think it's fair to call this an 11th hour monkey wrench in the works, two days from shutdown. What's the calculation here by Trump and Musk?
GOLDMAN: I don't really think there is a calculation. Honestly, I think they've been clearly as Donald Trump has been asleep at the wheel. This is being negotiated intensively for weeks now.
I find it hard to believe that Trump was not clued in to what was going on, but probably more likely just paid no interest until his benefactor, The one who spent nearly $300 million to get him elected, the one multibillionaire richest man on earth who has numerous federal contracts, chimed in to oppose this bill. And all of a sudden Donald Trump scrambled to try to kill it because his puppet master said so.
And this is -- it's one thing when you have Donald Trump governing by tweet, as he did in his first term, where he was in communication with Congress, but now you have Elon Musk, an unelected oligarch governing by tweet.
[20:05:10]
This is absurd, and what we have here is a bipartisan deal that Mike Johnson, the Speaker of the House, negotiated and brought to the House that has been scuttled by Donald Trump and Elon Musk and is putting us on the brink of a government shutdown.
SCIUTTO: Yes, right before the holidays. I want to get to that relationship between Trump and Musk. But before I do, I want to note something, Democrats negotiated with Republicans again on this and they got burned again, somewhat similar to what happened with immigration reform. Could one reasonably ask, haven't Democrats learned?
GOLDMAN: Well, look, the Republicans are going to need Democrats to pass this budget, and if they are not interested in doing that, then they are going to shut the government down right during Christmas, and they are going to hurt the American people. They are going to hurt working Americans. They're going to hurt our service members and our veterans and that's on them.
And the reality is, we are not yet in the new Congress. We have a deadline on Friday with the existing Congress, the House Republicans continue to be completely inept and incapable of governing. But there's a Democratic Senate and a Democratic president, and that's what you're dealing with. And that's how legislating works, is that sometimes you've got to compromise in order to get something done.
SCIUTTO: Hakeem Jeffries is on the record saying Democrats will not bail out Republicans of this budget mess. Does he stick to that? Should he stick to that promise? GOLDMAN: Absolutely, absolutely. He had negotiated a bipartisan deal that included an extension of the budget until March, as well as other things that will help farmers, that will help working Americans, that will lower prescription drug prices, that will do so many things for the middle class of America.
And now, after this deal has been made, there's an agreement. It is presented to the House, the House Republicans are reneging on their deal. This is on them. And if they want to pass a clean CR, good luck to them.
SCIUTTO: Does it strike you as somewhat ironic, perhaps, that Trump, who of course, railed against government spending under Democrats and hikes to the debt ceiling under Democrats, is also now demanding a hike in the debt ceiling. So, that in effect, he doesn't have to inherit this problem. I wonder what that tells you about his plans for governing in whether reducing the debt will actually be a real priority for him?
GOLDMAN: Jim, this is just totally absurd and outrageous. To be dropping in two days before a government shutdown, the notion of raising the debt ceiling. This has not been discussed at all. This is not something that has a deadline now. It has a deadline in the middle of next year. It's just not been a part of these discussions and now all of a sudden, after a deal is reached, Donald Trump decides that that's what he is going to insist on. And at some point, Congressional Republicans need to stand up for the American people.
They are not captive to Donald Trump. They are their own independent elected officials who take an oath to the constitution and to represent the American people. And it is just simply no excuse to say, I fear a primary. So I will do whatever Donald Trump and Elon Musk say. It's time to stand up and do what's right for the American people, not to do what's right for Donald Trump.
SCIUTTO: Well, those fears seem to be quite pointed for Republican lawmakers.
Congressman Goldman, thanks so much.
With me here, "New York Times", journalist and podcast host Lulu Garcia-Navarro, also CNN's senior political commentator David Axelrod, former Trump administration official Matt Mowers, and former Illinois Republican Congressman Adam Kinzinger.
Congressman Kinzinger, I'd like to begin with you, because -- what do you make of the politics of the president-elect trying to kill this bill, along with the help of Elon Musk here? And how does Speaker Johnson handle this? Because his own support is hanging by a thread.
ADAM KINZINGER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, first off, I'd like to say thank the Lord God that I am not in Congress anymore. I know this game. They always play this like Christmas deadline, stupid game.
But look, President Musk this morning made it clear with all his vast government experience, which is basically he became rich on the federal government that he doesn't want Republicans to pass this. And seemingly Vice President Trump kind of backed him up then at that point.
And what it says about the politics is this is going to be a messy four years. The whole debt ceiling thing, Donald Trump is making it clear that he wants the debt ceiling to go up.
[20:10:10]
By the way, the debt ceiling is going to have to go up, but he doesn't want to have to take ownership for it because he will again for four years look at the Democrats and blame them.
And so, what this says about the politics is, good luck for the next four years. I don't think they'll shut the government down because ultimately they'll want to get home for Christmas. They'll do like a one-month CR pretending like that's going to fix everything. But yes, I mean, I think President Elon has made it clear what his agenda is going to be for the next four years.
SCIUTTO: Yes, it does seem that the only thing that truly moves Capitol Hill is vacations in my experience, watching that building behind me.
David Axelrod, it seems that part of Trump's calculation here is that he wouldn't get blamed for this shutdown because he's not president yet, even though in many way's he's acting like president, certainly on affairs of foreign policy.
Who stands to lose the most from a potential shutdown?
DAVID AXELROD, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, look, it's pretty clear that they were about to pass the bill and Musk intervened and Trump followed him. And now, we're headed into this crisis period. You
know, my friend, Rahm Emanuel, always used to say, nothing gets Congress going like the smell of jet fuel that people are going to want to get out of Washington. So, maybe that will happen again.
But, you know, the thing that I find -- I mean, first of all, let's just level set this. Everyone who's watching this should strap on their seatbelts because this is what the next four years are going to be like. And, Speaker Johnson ought to be strapping on his parachute because I don't know how he's going to have a narrower margin come January.
And, you know, if this is -- if he's in this kind of jam, now, imagine where he's going to be, then I don't know what's going to happen to him.
What was confusing to me is Musk sends out one of his tweets and he says no one should do anything until January 20th when Trump gets there, Trump sends out a tweet saying they ought to pass a clean CR with a debt ceiling -- raising the debt ceiling, because as Adam says, he doesn't want to be blamed for it. So they seem to be saying different things, and eventually they're going to have to get together and decide who the president is.
SCIUTTO: Matt, I wonder what your read of that relationship is, because it was that Musk tweet that seemed to really set this off. And Donald Trump historically is not someone who likes to be overshadowed here. Do you see potential tension developing between the two of them over time?
MATT MOWERS, FORMER TRUMP ADMINISTRATION OFFICIAL: I don't. And because I don't think Elon Musk was intentionally getting ahead of where Donald Trump was, I mean, there's been conservative frustration and candidly, it was a concerted concern when they didn't know what was going to be in the bill. And it turned into conservative frustration once they saw what was going to be in the bill, whether it was some of the funding, extra funding that was going in or the pay increases for members of Congress and things like that.
And so, you know, I don't think this is the tail wagging the dog. This is the fact that you have widespread conservatives, including Donald Trump, as well as including Elon Musk, about ultimately what has been put into this package.
And, you know, the key thing that Donald Trump wants, he's long believed that the debt ceiling should maybe even just be raised and go away, that Congress can eliminate the actual debt ceiling. That's something that you don't necessarily need to have congressional approval to increase in specific amounts.
And so clearly that would -- you know, they could do that or you do a larger debt ceiling increase that maybe even lasts four years, it clears the debt of that type of fight that he really doesn't want to have, because he'd much rather be talking about priorities they asked.
SCIUTTO: How could you eliminate the debt ceiling or extend it for four years and, come to bring about one of his promises was to end, you know, this endless spending that he consistently blamed on Democrats. That sounds like a president who's willing to -- well, let debt get out of control.
MOWERS: No, because it's two very different issues, Jim. I mean, there's the issue of spending levels that will be approved or not under Donald Trump and new spending levels and there's the issue of the spending that's already occurred, which is really what the debt ceiling has to do with. It has to do with the credit card bill you've already run up, not the future spending that you have.
And so, I think if today is any indication, it's actually that maybe fiscal discipline might be in vogue actually for the next few years, something that a lot of folks on both sides of the aisle weren't sure about.
SCIUTTO: We should note the CBO has calculated that Trump's policies would add to the national debt, particularly tax cuts.
Lulu Garcia-Navarro, when you look at the collection of events, and again, we haven't had the inauguration. It's still a few weeks away.
LULU GARCIA-NAVARRO, CNN CONTRIBUTOR We have not, but it feels like it, it feels like it.
SCIUTTO: And you haven't sworn in the new members of Congress but you do have a potential shutdown here. You have a challenge at least to Johnson's leadership here, Thomas Massie has already said he's not going to vote for him and that his margins, Johnson's margins are very thin.
[20:15:02]
The stock market plunged today and not just on a daily event, but the but the read from the Fed that inflation is actually going to go up next year based on policies it sees as inflationary, including tariffs here.
Is that the beginning that Trump and Republicans were hoping for?
GARCIA-NAVARRO: I mean, the signal that this is sending is a signal that Republicans are at each other's throats. And this is not the signal that you want to be sending.
But I do want to sort of lay this out, which is this is a fight that, as Adam Kinzinger said, happens every year. Every year there's this huge omnibus, everyone is stuffing this turkey full of everything that they can to get it passed, so this is not uncommon.
What is uncommon is to have Elon Musk basically tweeting about this over and over and over again and urging lawmakers to vote against it and then threatening them and saying, I'm going to use my money if you do not do what I say, and if you read what he's written on Twitter, X now, you know, what he's saying is I'm speaking for the people. I'm just alerting the people through this platform that I own, that this is something that they have to be concerned about.
But let's talk about what's in this bill. It is $100 billion in aid for farmers. It is, you know, pharmacy benefit manager controls. It is criminalizing deepfake porn. I mean, there are issues here.
SCIUTTO: Disaster relief for North Carolina.
GARCIA-NAVARRO: Disaster relief for North Carolina.
I mean, there are issues here that have to be dealt with and are popular in a bipartisan way. So, you know, what is it that they want to cut exactly? And what is this big pork that they're talking about?
SCIUTTO: Well, we talk about the fears, right? I mean, that threat of a Elon Musk funded primary challenge is one that Republicans have been using to get or attempt to get through some of the more controversial nominees as well.
Folks seem to listen to those threats.
Lulu Garcia-Navarro, thanks so much. Everyone else still stay here. I still have got a lot of questions for you.
Coming up next, what appears to be another sign that the president- elect is still very much focused on retribution against his perceived political opponents, and a preview of Luigi Mangione's day in court tomorrow before he heads back to New York to face a first degree murder charge.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:22:41]
SCIUTTO: Donald Trump campaigned on carrying out retribution against perceived political enemies, specifically members of the former House January 6th Committee, especially former Republican Congresswoman Liz Cheney, who served as vice chair.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP (R) PRESIDENT-ELECT OF THE UNITED STATES: And Cheney was behind it, and so was Bennie Thompson and everybody on that committee. For what they did --
KRISTEN WELKER, NBC NEWS: Yes.
TRUMP: Honestly, they should go to jail.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: Go to jail. That was the president-elect on NBC's "Meet The Press" two Sundays ago.
Yesterday, Republicans on a House Oversight Subcommittee released a report giving him ammunition to do it. And this morning, he posted this on social media, quoting now, "Liz Cheney could be in a lot of trouble based on the evidence obtained by the subcommittee, which states that numerous federal laws were likely broken by Liz Cheney, and these violations should be investigated by the FBI."
The subcommittee report says that Cheney "tampered" with at least one witness referring to former Trump White House staffer, Cassidy Hutchinson, who appeared before the committee. It spotlights conversations between Hutchinson and Congresswoman Cheney, calling it, "unusual and potentially unethical for a member of Congress conducting an investigation to contact a witness if the member knows that the individual is represented by legal counsel."
However, as former Congresswoman Cheney writes, it was Hutchinson who contacted her. Here is how she described it in her memoirs: "She told me that she was inclined to represent herself going forward. I was very sympathetic to her situation, but I did not want our committee to be advising her on what she should do next. I told Cassidy that she could consult another lawyer and seek his or her independent advice on how best to move forward."
Hutchinson's own account corroborates this, and would appear to cast doubt on the subcommittee's suggestion of wrongdoing, whether that registers with the president-elect is unclear, given his posting today. What is true, either way, given the loyalist he has appointed to lead the FBI, is that he does not even have to issue the order to make bad things happen for Liz Cheney as his full remarks on "Meet the Press" seem to show.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: And Cheney was behind it, and so was Bennie Thompson and everybody on that committee, for what they did --
WELKER: Yes.
TRUMP: Honestly, they should go to jail.
WELKER: So you think Liz Cheney should go to jail.
TRUMP: For what they did --
WELKER: Everyone on the committee should go to jail?
TRUMP: I think everybody -- anybody that voted in favor --
WELKER: Are you going to direct your FBI director and your attorney general to send them to jail?
TRUMP: No, not at all. I think that they'll have to look at that but I am not going to -- I am going to focus on drill, baby, drill.
WELKER: When you say that, it carries weight though.
TRUMP: On certain --
WELKER: You know, you've tapped these people to lead the Justice Department and FBI.
TRUMP: They can do whatever they want.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: Joining the panel now is CNN legal analyst, Jennifer Rodgers. And Jennifer, I want to begin with you given you're a lawyer here, what would be the legal basis of prosecuting Liz Cheney criminally for participating in this congressional panel to investigate the events of January 6th?
JENNIFER RODGERS, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Well, Jim, there is no legal basis for her participation. The allegation is that there was witness tampering here, which is a federal crime, of course, if you know of an ongoing matter and you tamper with a witness by discouraging them from testifying, for example, for telling them to lie, for destroying documents, that sort of thing, that, of course, is a crime.
[20:25:13]
The problem is, when you read the report that was released by Representative Loudermilk, there isn't evidence of that in the report. So it just kind of contains conclusory language about, well, she tampered with Hutchinson, and then Hutchinson said things that were consistent with what the committee wanted to find. But that's not good enough.
You actually need evidence, and I at least haven't seen anything in what's been released so far.
SCIUTTO: Congressman Kinzinger, you, of course, took part in that committee as well And the president-elect has often attacked you, as have his allies for your participation in that.
Do you expect that you might face similar attempts at criminal prosecution?
KINZINGER: I don't know. I mean, look, I am not worried about it because obviously I didn't do anything wrong. Liz didn't do anything wrong. Constitutionally, there is even a question, even if something wrong was done, can the executive actually come after a legislator? But regardless, no, I am not worried.
Donald Trump is honestly the most scared guy. He is mad because he was embarrassed, but he also knows that the only thing right now that unifies the Republican Party. I mean, obviously, look at the chaos that is going on that we spent the last segment talking about is the only thing that unifies them is victimhood.
He always has to be a victim. He always has -- never mind the fact that for 187 minutes, he sat and watched the Capitol get sacked. He hasn't -- he is not going against that. In fact, Loudermilk's thing didn't say that Donald Trump was out actively for 170 minutes trying to stop it.
So if they want to play this game, fine. We are still a country that's of a rule of law. I am not worried. The last person in the world that scares me is Donald Trump. But they have to be unified on being victims and they can't let it go. And
by the way, when people keep saying, lets quit talking about January 6th, the Republicans say that all the time. They are the ones that keep bringing it up. So whatever.
SCIUTTO: Matt, I wonder what your response is. These were members of Congress, Republicans and Democrats. They were investigating an attack on the Capitol that, as you know, threatened the lives and well-being of Democratic and Republican lawmakers. You remember Republicans who now criticize the investigation. Many of them were cowering in their offices on that day because they as well feared for their lives from that mob.
And as you remember, there was actually a bipartisan agreement for the committee, which was later scuttled despite negotiations. What's the basis, in your view, to make such claims like this, to say that members of Congress should go to jail for investigating an attack, that there was quite broad bipartisan support for investigating? MOWERS: Well, you know, even watching the full clip that you just played in the second time you played it, you see, he is clearly -- he is frustrated by the coverage of January 6th. He is frustrated by the members of Congress, but quickly backed off of it very quickly.
Obviously, he is not saying that individual members of Congress should be actually thrown in jail because of those reasons. I mean, he even said, I am not going to ask the director of the FBI to do any of that.
In fact, one of the big campaign promises, he said --
SCIUTTO: He said, they should go to jail. I could read back the quote. He said they should go -- he literally said it.
MOWERS: And Jim, so we did back away from it and actually the campaign came out right after that saying the law should be applied equally to everybody and that is what he said as well.
You know, I think the question will actually remain now with the report, if there is actually evidence to back it up, you know, at that point, then it could actually open up an investigation. It is one that I think actually a lot of folks who follow the legal process would say is warranted, potentially, again, if the report is actually backed up, depending upon the evidence that's there.
SCIUTTO: Well, let me -- don't trust my reading of it. Let's play the clip back, David Axelrod, for what the president-elect said about what should happen to lawmakers -- former lawmakers like Liz Cheney.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: And Cheney was behind it, and so was Bennie Thompson and everybody on that committee, for what they did --
WELKER: Yes.
TRUMP: Honestly, they should go to jail.
WELKER: So you think Liz Cheney should go to jail.
TRUMP: For what they did --
WELKER: Everyone on the committee should go to jail?
TRUMP: I think everybody -- anybody that voted in favor --
WELKER: Are you going to direct your FBI director and your attorney general to send them to jail?
TRUMP: No, not at all. I think that they'll have to look at that but I am not going to -- I am going to focus on drill, baby, drill.
WELKER: When you say that, it carries weight though.
TRUMP: On certain --
WELKER: You know, you've tapped these people to lead the Justice Department and FBI.
TRUMP: They can do whatever they want.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: David, the point is, this is of course, not a comment in isolation. The president-elect has said this multiple times, and by the way, his allies and the president as well have talked about other folks who should be prosecuted criminally or sued, including members of the media.
As you know, there is a debate in cocktail party circles around Washington as to whether this is just bluster or a signal of policy and strategy. Which is it?
AXELROD: Well, I don't know if its policy and strategy, but I think vengeance is very real. And, look, I want to give Matt a little -- cut him a little slack here because he is in a difficult spot and he is trying to say up is down and --
I mean, I want to give Trump the respect that he deserves. His words, he spoke clearly, he spoke plainly. He didn't qualify it. And I think that's what he believes. And we've heard him say these kinds of things before, that presidents shouldn't be -- you know, presidents shouldn't be investigated, that we shouldn't be speaking out against presidents that there is something criminally wrong with those kinds of things.
I think that he absolutely means it.
[20:30:39]
Now, the people who really should be paying attention, Jim, are the Senators who are going to vote on the nominations of the attorney general and the FBI director. Kash Patel has made very, very clear that he is eager to be an instrument of Trump's vengeance. And so, this was essentially an invitation to him to follow up on what Trump wants done.
And the question is, will the United States Senate and will enough Republicans in the Senate stand up and say, this is not how the FBI should be run? This is not the priority they should be pursuing. I wish that I could agree with Dan Goldman that it's -- Republicans will stand up and resist Trump and Musk, and all this pressure. But I'll tell you what, survival in politics is a very, very powerful impulse. And I always say there's a reason that "Profiles in Courage" was such a slim volume.
SCIUTTO: Yeah. I hear you.
AXELROD: So I don't -- I'm eager to see how many people show some courage when these hearings take place.
SCIUTTO: And we should notice Kash Patel, who said publicly, journalists should be -- some should be either sued or prosecuted criminally. Congressman Kinzinger, I do want to get to the news.
AXELROD: He said that I want to withdraw -- I want to withdraw what I said -- he said (ph). No, I'm just kidding.
(LAUGH)
SCIUTTO: It's public. Turning to the news that the House Ethics Committee has voted to release the report on former Congressman Matt Gaetz sometime within the next few weeks, it reportedly has greater details on allegations of sex with a minor as well as illicit drug use, all of which Gaetz denies, we should note. This did not get through the initial vote in that Ethics Committee, which is divided evenly between the parties, but clearly, some Republicans decided to vote to release this report.
What -- did that surprise you, Adam Kinzinger? And what do you think might have changed their calculus?
KINZINGER: No, it didn't surprise me ultimately, because the people that serve on Ethics understand, I mean, Republican and Democrat, they understand that they're kind of the guardian of the flame really. They're responsible for ensuring that we hold some level of standard in Congress. So it didn't surprise me, it pleased me, actually, and not because of Matt Gaetz particularly, but because what he's being accused of and what evidently there is evidence for is so egregious and he's made it very clear.
Matt Gaetz has made it clear, he still wants to be in government. He only basically had to pull out of being attorney general. Let's keep that in mind. He almost was attorney general of the United States. That was Donald Trump's number one pick. So when this comes out and we read this stuff that he's already -- Gaetz has already previewed for us. He said, yep, I paid a bunch of women a bunch of money, haven't we all, basically?
(LAUGH)
KINZINGER: When we read that, just remember this was Donald Trump's first pick to be the chief law enforcement officer of the country.
SCIUTTO: That was in his statement. I should note that Gaetz denies the allegations. He says, "It's embarrassing, though not criminal, that I probably partied, womanized, drank and smoked more than I should have earlier in life. I live a different life now."
David Axelrod, Matt Mowers, Congressman Kinzinger, Jennifer Rodgers, thanks so much to all of you. Jennifer, please stick around. I got some more questions for you.
Coming up, could the suspect in the UnitedHealthcare CEO shooting soon be headed to New York? More on that and the difficulty prosecutors could face in their case against Luigi Mangione, next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:38:10]
SCIUTTO: In just hours, Luigi Mangione, the suspect in the killing of the UnitedHealthcare CEO could be in New York. According to Mangione's attorney, Karen Friedman Agnifilo, who is also a CNN Legal Analyst, Mangione is no longer going to fight extradition from Pennsylvania to New York. Now, his next steps will be decided by a Pennsylvania judge tomorrow. This comes as legal experts warn it could be difficult to prosecute Mangione on some of the charges against him.
Back with us now, CNN Legal Analyst, Jennifer Rodgers. Joining us as well as CNN Chief Law Enforcement and Intelligence Analyst, John Miller, who's a former NYPD Deputy Commissioner. Good to have you both on.
Jennifer, I want to begin with you because you have this first-degree murder charge now in New York based on what's known as a terrorism enhancement. What do you think of the Manhattan D.A. Alvin Bragg's argument that because this killing was intended to strike fear, that it meets that standard?
RODGERS: Well, it's an aggressive charge. It's the top possible charge in New York State and it means that they are going forward with everything they've got. Maybe part of it is to try to work on a plea. You go in with the top charge and maybe take a murder two plea. But it really means they're going after him. And like you said, Alvin talked about the killer striking fear in the community. In order to prove this, you have to prove that he intended to intimidate or coerce a civilian population or a government entity. So, it's a very specific charge.
And my issue, Jim, when you look at these facts, it's not so clear that it looks like a terrorism case in the way that we're used to thinking about terrorism cases. So, I think they have to turn it on its head a little bit.
[20:40:00]
It's not putting a bomb in Times Square to scare the city in general. It's not a foreign policy thing like the 9/11 attacks. It's something quite different from that. And so, I think it's going to take a little bit of explanation from the D.A. and his folks, ultimately, on what their legal theory is. So I'm looking forward to hearing when they explain that in a little more detail.
SCIUTTO: John, the D.A. Bragg said that the murder of Thompson was "intended to cause shock and attention and intimidation." And it's interesting because you and I have talked about this a number of times in the wake of the killing, that there actually is fear among the CEOs of other corporations, that they might be targeted too by folks out there who blame them for, whether it's healthcare issues or other, or just for being capitalist, right? So I wonder, based on that fear and the level of it, do you see a connection there?
JOHN MILLER, CNN CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT AND INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: Well, yesterday, as the grand jury was handing up this indictment literally simultaneously, Kathy Garcia, the top eight, Governor Hochul, the state police, Rebecca Weiner, the Deputy Commissioner for NYPD Intelligence, were on a conference call with the heads of security for major healthcare entities and corporations, talking to them about what the intel is saying, what they're seeing online, what the pitch and tone of the rhetoric and vitriol is, as they were asking questions about security.
And that is a week after the NYPD had 620 of its private sector partners on the line, not just healthcare companies either, asking about the same thing with the wanted posters taped to lampposts of corporate heads and the deck of cards that has turned up with bounties on them. It is something that they are very concerned about.
SCIUTTO: OK, they get concerned about copycat killers. We did, as well tonight, Jennifer, get news, of a possible federal investigation in the background of this. Do you see the potential here that Mangione is charged federally as well, in addition to these state charges?
RODGERS: Well, he could be. It's unlikely he would be charged for the murder federally. I can't think of a murder charge that would really apply here. Typically, when you piggyback on a state murder charge, it would be for federal civil rights violations. So, that's probably not happening. So it's probably related to the firearm, these ghost guns, the ammunition maybe, things in travel and commerce, things that are made from internet parts. That's the sort of charge that I would expect the Feds to bring if they are going to bring one.
And if they do, it's really more of an insurance policy than anything else. You see what happens in the state case, you have these federal charges in your back pocket in case things go awry, that sort of thing.
SCIUTTO: Right. Before we go, John, can you just explain briefly what's going to happen with Mangione's extradition hearing tomorrow?
MILLER: Well, we are told by the Manhattan District Attorney that their expectation after talking to people in his defense campus, that he's willing to waive extradition, which then just means they can release him to the custody of the New York City police detectives who will be at the hearing. They can put him on a plane or, depending on the weather, in a car and drive him back to New York, at which point he can be brought to New York State supreme court where Judge Gregory Carro has been assigned the case.
Now, it wouldn't be the regular arraignment part, this would be the judge who's been assigned the trial since he's already been indicted, in a murder-one case, he's not going to entertain bail, so it is almost a thousand percent certain he would be remanded and go to Rikers Island. All that could happen tomorrow or the next day.
SCIUTTO: Wow. What a, what a turn for this for this young man. Jennifer Rogers. John Miller, thanks so much.
Well, just a day after a brazen assassination of a senior Russian General on the streets of Moscow, authorities there say they've detained a suspect. We're going to have the details next.
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[20:48:30]
SCIUTTO: Just one day after the assassination of a top Russian General in a Moscow bombing, Russia says it has detained an Uzbek national in connection with that killing. General Igor Kirillov led Russia's radiological, biological and chemical protection forces, as they're known. He was killed outside his apartment building Tuesday, by a remotely detonated explosive device hidden in an electric scooter.
Russia's investigative committee says the Uzbek suspect was recruited by Ukraine and acting on its instructions. Ukraine has claimed responsibility for the attack. CNN's Matthew Chance has more.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN CHIEF GLOBAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): On Russian TV, news that Moscow Police have already detained a suspected bomber. This 29-year-old Uzbek citizen arrested in a village outside the capital has now confessed according to prosecutors, to planting the explosive device that killed Igor Kirillov, one of Russia's top generals and his assistant.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): During interrogation, he explained that he was recruited by Ukrainian Special Services, then arrived in Moscow and received an improvised explosive device. He placed it on an electric scooter, which he parked at the entrance of the apartment building where Igor Kirillov lived.
CHANCE (voice-over): Video released by the Russian Security Services purports to show the suspect setting up a surveillance camera in a car outside. The camera is said to have live streamed the attack to Ukrainian intelligence, which has indeed claimed responsibility for the killing.
[20:50:00]
The suspect is then shown on video, possibly under duress, saying he was promised $100,000 and a European passport for, in his words, pressing the button. But the bombing on the streets of Moscow is only the latest in a series of assassinations of prominent figures supporting Russia's full-scale invasion of Ukraine, starting with Darya Dugina, an outspoken advocate of the conflict and daughter of a pro-Kremlin nationalist, killed in a car bombing in August 2022. Ukraine denied involvement, but the shooting just last week of Mikhail Shatsky, a Russian missile developer outside Moscow was orchestrated by Ukrainian intelligence, according to a CNN source in Kyiv, as was the car bombing in November of Valery Trankovsky, a senior Russian naval officer in Crimea. There have been numerous other killings too, as Ukraine steps up assassinations far from the frontlines, cementing a reputation for vengeance.
CHANCE: Well, tonight, there's been scathing reaction from the Kremlin with Vladimir Putin's spokesman saying, the Moscow bombing shows Ukraine "does not shy away from using terrorist methods." This as other Russian officials are now vowing revenge against the political and military leadership inside Ukraine.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SCIUTTO: Matthew Chance, thanks so much. Coming up next, another tech leader has headed to Mar-a-Lago to meet with the president-elect.
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[20:56:20]
SCIUTTO: Amazon Founder Jeff Bezos was scheduled to meet with President-elect Trump today at Mar-a-Lago and he's not the first tech titan to do so. The president-elect certainly seems to have noticed.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, (R) PRESIDENT-ELECT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: I did have dinner with Tim Cook. I had dinner with sort of almost all of them, and the rest are coming. And this is one of the big differences I think between -- we were talking about it before -- one of the big differences between the first term. In the first term, everybody was fighting me. In this term, everybody wants to be my friend. I don't know. My personality changed or something.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: We should note, Amazon made $1 million donation to the Trump Inaugural Fund. That said, Bezos who also owns "The Washington Post", of course, has a complicated history to say the least, with the president-elect. Here's Randi Kaye.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JEFF BEZOS, FOUNDER, AMAZON: If we're talking about Trump, I think it's very interesting. I'm actually very optimistic this time around.
RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Billionaire Amazon Founder Jeff Bezos earlier this month, offering his take on President-elect Donald Trump's second term.
BEZOS: What I've seen so far is that he is calmer than he was first time.
KAYE (voice-over): That's a lot coming from a guy who has been on the receiving end of much of Trump's ire, some of it dates back to the 2016 campaign when Trump suggested Bezos was using his ownership of "The Washington Post" as a weapon against Congress to keep politicians from looking into Amazon no-tax monopoly.
TRUMP: I have respect for Jeff Bezos, but he bought "The Washington Post" to have political influence. And I got to tell you, we have a different country than we used to have. Believe me, if I become president, oh, do they have problems?
KAYE (voice-over): In 2016, Trump suggested Bezos was using the newspaper to evade taxes.
TRUMP: "The Washington Post" which is just a ploy for Amazon, so that Amazon doesn't pay taxes. KAYE (voice-over): Bezos responded to Trump's attacks regarding taxes, writing on Twitter, finally trashed by real Donald Trump. We'll still reserve him a seat on the Blue Origin rocket. Included in the tweet, the hashtag, "#sendDonaldtospace".
BEZOS: And you know, I have a rocket company, so I -- the -- the --
(LAUGH)
BEZOS: -- the capability is there.
KAYE (voice-over): He also chastised Trump for threatening those who dare to scrutinize him.
BEZOS: We are allowed to criticize and scrutinize our elected leaders.
KAYE (voice-over): After Trump was elected in 2016, Bezos and Trump took a brief pause from blasting one another. The two men met in December 2016 at Trump Tower. By the time Trump ran for president again in 2020, he'd rebooted the jabs aimed at Bezos. When news of Bezos' impending divorce was published in the "National Enquirer" in 2019, Trump saw an opportunity and crowned Bezos with a new nickname, referring to him in a tweet, as "Jeff Bozo."
More recently, their icy relationship seemed to thaw. After the first assassination attempt on Trump's life in July in Pennsylvania, Bezos wrote on X, our former president showed tremendous grace and courage under literal fire tonight. So thankful for his safety and so sad for the victims and their families.
And just last month, Bezos congratulated Trump on an extraordinary political comeback and decisive victory in the 2024 election.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KAYE (on camera): And in the election this year, "The Washington Post" did not endorse a candidate and Jeff Bezos defended that decision in an op-ed in his own newspaper saying that he doesn't think endorsements do anything to tip the scales of an election. He also said that it creates a perception of bias.
