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Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees
Hours Away From Shutdown, 'Plan B' Fails And 'Plan C' Looks Doubtful; Interview with Rep. Don Bacon (R-NE); CEO Murder Suspect Now Held at NYC Federal Detention Facility. Mangione's Attorney Told The Court That She Had Never Before Seen This "Highly Unusual" Situation; CEO Murder Suspect Facing New Federal Charges, On Top Of State Case; Hours Away From Shutdown; "Plan B" Fails And Waiting On "Plan C"; CA Man Accuse of "Plotting" Second Attack With WI School Shooter. Aired 8-9p ET
Aired December 19, 2024 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JOSH CAMPBELL, CNN SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: ... authorities wrote about in that restraining order warrant appear to be very serious. The big question will they rise to the level of criminal prosecution -- Erin.
ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: All right, Josh, thank you very much, in Carlsbad tonight. And thanks so much, as always, to all of you for being with us. We'll see you back here tomorrow. AC360 starts right now.
[20:00:23]
JIM SCIUTTO, CNN HOST: Tonight on 360, a day after Elon Musk and Donald Trump torpedoed a bipartisan budget bill, House Republicans try to pass a GOP only measure, but can't even get enough Republicans on board.
Also tonight, how alleged CEO killer, Luigi Mangione started the day facing state murder charges and finishes it in a federal jail cell facing a federal murder charge that could carry a death sentence.
Later, was the Wisconsin shooter planning another mass murder, along with someone from across the country? What newly obtained court documents reveal.
Good evening to you.
Jim Sciutto here, sitting in again for Anderson. Tonight, House Republicans have failed to pass legislation to keep the federal government running for the millions of Americans who depend on it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA): This is Washington. This is how the lawmaking is done. It's a long process, sometimes it takes a while to reach consensus. But we're going to do the right thing here tonight.
(END VIDEO CLIP) SCIUTTO: That was House Speaker Mike Johnson, who could not corral enough of his own party members behind what was, actually their Plan B legislation after Elon Musk and President-elect Trump sank a bipartisan Plan A yesterday.
Today, both men were behind the measure tonight. But again, not enough of their fellow republicans were as well. So, Plan A is dead, Plan B just died, and we just learned from GOP whip Steve Scalise that Plan C, they had been looking at looks doubtful as well.
The question tonight is once again, what now?
CNN's Manu Raju joins us at the Capitol. So, I wonder what you're hearing from lawmakers, particularly since Steve Scalise is now moving away from an option that was at least out there to try to get this passed on a simple majority.
MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, look, I expect the speaker of the House just addressed reporters moments ago, and I asked him what is the next plan? And he really didn't have any specifics. He said they were going to regroup, they are going to try and figure out what the next steps were. And he attacked Democrats, even though there were Republicans also who voted against this plan on the House floor, despite the push from Donald Trump.
Now, one big reason why there were Republicans who voted and defied Donald Trump was his demand -- Trump's demand to suspend the national debt limit for two years. Remember, this is something that Congress has to typically deal with every so often, but it is expected to be dealt with next year. But Donald Trump recognized that this will be a complication next year for his agenda. And now demanding in the 11th hour to inject this into this government funding fight, saying it must be addressed right now.
But here's the problem. There are a lot of Republicans who fundamentally oppose raising the national debt limit. Dealing with that without any spending cuts whatsoever. So, as a result, you saw a revolt on the right, and you had, in some of those members, I caught up with, Jim, and they expressed why they are concerned with Donald Trump's demands.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. TIM BURCHETT (R-TN): This just stinks. That's why America doesn't trust government and it's for good dadgum reason.
RAJU: And you said shut it down.
BURCHETT: That's what it takes to bring us to the table.
REP. TIM GOOD (R-VA): Any extra supplemental ought to stand on its own merits and not be attached to it, and it ought to have pay fors and the debt limit must not be increased without commensurate spending cuts and fiscal reform.
REP. ERIC BURLISON (R-MO): When I ran for office, I said that I would not vote to raise the debt ceiling, and so, I haven't -- I've never voted to raise the debt ceiling. And I mean, I love Donald Trump, but he didn't vote me into office, my district did.
RAJU: You want to shut it down?
BURLISON: I'm not afraid of a shutdown.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RAJU: And you're hearing some of those members saying they are not afraid to go to a government shutdown. So where does this go from here, Jim? It is really uncertain because the Democrats said they had a deal on the table that Donald Trump essentially forced to collapse then, now what? No one really knows, which could mean a shutdown by midnight tomorrow night and a prolonged one at that.
SCIUTTO: Yes and those are Republicans saying they're not afraid of a shutdown, which seems to be them owning that they're bringing about a shutdown, even though you have JD Vance and others blaming this on Democrats. Manu Raju, thanks so much.
So, joining me now is Republican Congressman Don Bacon from Nebraska, and he's joining us from Capitol Hill. Congressman, thanks so much for taking the time tonight.
REP. DON BACON (R-NE): Good evening Jim.
SCIUTTO: So you and I, we speak frequently and you're someone who negotiates with members of the other party. You voted for bipartisan deals on a number of issues, and there was a bipartisan deal yesterday killed by, it seems Musk and Trump. And now, Republicans find themselves in this pickle. Was that the mistake they're killing? What was a bipartisan agreement?
[20:05:07]
BACON: Yes, Jim. to answer your question to the point, I think there's two or three things that we could take away from this. We had a reasonably good deal. And by the way, you're never going to get a debt ceiling increased or a CR passed without Democrats' support because we have about 30 Republicans that will not support that in a tight majority. That means you've got to have some Democrat support, which means you got to have a bipartisan bill. So, that's the first point.
Second point, the bill that we had yesterday had a lot of wins for Republicans, a lot of great things we've been trying to get for two years now. But to get that, we had to give away a couple of priorities that the Democrats wanted. And I thought it was a reasonably good compromise. The problem was one or two people in our conference, instead of just opposing it, had to go out and demonize and distort things provisions in the bill.
So, for example, our salaries $174,000.00, but they put out we're going to get $240,000.00. That wasn't true that we were going to prevent any kind of investigations on those who served on the J6 Committee. That is not in the bill. I could go on and on. So, this stuff was put out by members of our own party. Then you have these social media influencers with a million followers. They pick up on it and they throw gasoline on the fire. And that's what we had yesterday. So, and people run away from it. I'm sort of used to it. I've been a target of a lot of these same people. So, Elon Musk took some of this false data and put that back out there.
And this is my third point, if you're on the same side and you don't like what you're hearing, pick up the telephone and call your friend, your ally. Why tweet and throw your ally under the bus? And I think this could have been easily resolved through a phone call to Speaker Johnson and worked their way through it.
Today. I voted for this bill today because it would prevent a shutdown, and it was a skinny CR, but I think Plan C is not going to happen because we don't have the majority of Republican votes for this.
SCIUTTO: Yes.
BACON: So, Plan B is probably going to be something that we had yesterday with maybe some smaller revisions to it. And we are going to have to work with President Trump on the debt ceiling.
SCIUTTO: And does that mean you're going to have to work with Democrats, in other words, do some horse trading with Democrats to get this across the finish line?
BACON: Jim, by definition, I believe when you're talking a CR or a debt ceiling, either one, there's enough Republicans who will never vote for it. So, you have to work across the aisle. This has been Speaker Johnson's dilemma. He knows he has to have some Democrat support to get these things passed. So that's why he was working across the aisle. And he was -- and he's -- I trust him. He's only going to agree to the Democrat priorities that he can tolerate and live with. And I thought he did a good job. It got demonized and a lot of lies about it.
And I think in the end, people will see through it. I believe President Trump today, after hearing the facts, actually thought what we had yesterday was a reasonably good bill. He just wants to get the debt ceiling modified. So I think we we're able to pull President Trump over today to what we were trying to do.
SCIUTTO: Well, we'll see. I want to talk about the debt limit because, you know, House Republicans have repeatedly lambasted Democrats for raising the debt limit. Now they want to suspend it for two years. And by the way, it's the Democrat's suspicion and listen, some of this is public because Republicans have been quite public about extending the Trump tax cuts.
That is because they want to allow an expanded debt ceiling to what will -- tax cuts that will add to the deficit. We know that's the CBO estimate. So why should voters believe, including your voters believe, that Republicans actually want to cut spending if they want to suspend the limit for two years and then pass a big tax cut? BACON: Well, I think there's two things. One, I do believe in extending the tax cuts because I think it makes our economy competitive, like 21 percent tax rate for businesses is what the average is in the world. We don't want to go back to 35 percent or somewhere higher.
So, I do think we want to do that. But I believe in the end we've got to do a debt commission because 72 percent of our spending is mandatory spending. Social security, Medicare, Medicaid, only 28 percent is discretionary. If you subtracted the entire discretionary budget, all of it, we still have a $800 billion a year deficit. And so we've got to get together Republicans and Democrats and figure out how we're going to preserve Social Security and Medicare, but yet get ahead of this exploding debt that's coming from the mandatory spending.
And it can only be done in a bipartisan way. If Republicans is trying to fix it, well get killed the next election. If Democrats try to do it by themselves, they'll get killed. We got to do this together and I think a commission is the only way to do it. And we've done one before. But the difference was, we did not have in the previous one that whatever they come up with, you have to put it on the floor for an up or down vote. This commission, you got to have it put on the floor for an up or down vote.
SCIUTTO: Let me ask you about one more measure here, because Congressman Jared Moskowitz, according to sources from CNN, pointed in a Democratic caucus meeting that a provisions restrictions rather on US investments in China were removed from the original bipartisan version of the bill. We should note Elon Musk. He's got a lot of investments in China removing those restrictions would benefit him.
Do you believe that in any way influenced the removal of that provision, which, again, came from the bipartisan bill?
[20:10:15]
BACON: Well, I surely hope not, and I only heard that about an hour ago for the first time by the way so I did hear this from one other Democrat. But I think in the end, just let's stay big picture here. We should be very careful about what business we do with China. We should restrict our exports. We should restrict our investments there. They are an adversary. They got a million Uyghurs and slave labor camps and doing forced sterilization.
What they're doing to Hong Kong is terrible. What they're doing in Tibet is terrible. And they're not a good faith trader with us. I mean, they stack the deck against our trade. And so, I think we should play hardball with them. And I think it's a mistake to take those provisions out.
SCIUTTO: Okay, we'll see if it ends up in the final version, if there is one. Congressman Don Bacon, we appreciate you joining us this Thursday evening.
BACON: Thank you. SCIUTTO: Joining us now, "Washington Post" senior political correspondent Rhonda Colvin, also CNN political commentators Van Jones and Brad Todd.
Good to have you all on.
Brad, I might begin with you because you have JD Vance and others and Mike Lawler on CNN a short time ago blaming Democrats for this, despite the fact that, of course, Republicans have the majority and 38 Republicans voted against this.
And as you heard to our Manu Raju earlier, some Republicans are saying, yes, bring on a shutdown. They don't mind. So, do Republicans own this potential shutdown?
BRAD TODD, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: No, Hakeem Jeffries wants a shutdown. Hakeem, this is what's going to be called Hakeem's holiday shutdown. That's what we're going to call it if it happens. He's for everything in this bill.
SCIUTTO: GOP members just said they don't -- they would like to have a shutdown. You just heard them say it on the air.
TODD: Hold on. No, they didn't say that -- you're not -- that's not a representative sample of the Republicans. You're always going to have a few outliers.
Hakeem Jeffries is for hurricane relief. He's for payments to farmers. He's for a debt limit increase, and he's for a CR keeping the government open.
That's what's in this bill and pretty much that's all. He's for, all of it. But it's a very cynical play by Hakeem Jeffries and House Democrats to just try to inflict pain on Republicans politically. And they're jeopardizing the entire government and the whole finances of the United States. It's really disgusting.
SCIUTTO: I mean, I did count 38 Republican votes voting against this bill. Van --
TODD: Yes, and then 150 Democrats.
SCIUTTO: Van, Republicans, though, do have a majority.
Van, that is going to be the GOP argument here. And by the way, there is certainly political danger in Democrats being on board for this, in effect, I wonder, and it's hard to judge how voters will see this in a couple of years' time. But I wonder, who do you think would be left with the lion's share of political blame here, if the government shuts down?
VAN JONES, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, whoever is willing to lie, just like the guy you just had on here. Look, this is ridiculous.
We had a deal, and then they blew it up. And why did they blow it up? They didn't blow it up for any good reason. Except that there is a cookie jar that has a lid on it. That lid is called the debt ceiling. And what Trump apparently wants to do is to unscrew that cookie jar and dump out the cookies for billionaires.
That's all that's going on here. There's nothing here that's new except for out of the clear blue sky in a lame duck session it's something I've never seen before. They throw on the table the debt ceiling. This is bizarre. You can't blame Hakeem Jeffries for that. But, hey, listen, how much can they lie about and get away with it? That's up to the American people.
But I'm going to tell you the honest truth. You have never seen in a lame duck session, the debt ceiling brought up early. Because there's nothing, you've never dealt with -- in a lame duck, you've never dealt with debt ceiling ever. So this is a Donald Trump play --
TODD: It expires January 1.
JONES: -- to make sure they get their hands on the cookie jar and dump cookies out for billionaires. That's all that's going on. There's nothing else happening here. Nothing else.
SCIUTTO: Rhonda, to that point, what is this --
TODD: Wait a minute --
SCIUTTO: Let me give Rhonda a chance and I do certainly want to come back to you, Brad.
But to that point, is this really about a looming fight over extending the Trump tax cuts to some degree, because Trump and Republicans would love to have that leeway so that they don't have that fight when they attempt to extend the tax cuts as one of their priorities once they take over post inauguration.
RHONDA COLVIN, SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT, "THE WASHINGTON POST": You know, it could be and I think we're all still trying to figure out what exactly just happened, because if you would have talked to a lot of us Hill reporters at the beginning of this week, even probably a month ago, this didn't look like the way that it would shake out.
It looked like this was a done deal. In fact, it really wasn't the big news in the last few weeks since Congress has been back since the election.
So the fact that, you know, in a matter of 24 hours, there was this disruption in a deal that had been brokered in a bipartisan way. I think that is -- I am really struck with how it all played out and the fact that lawmakers today, a lot of them are saying we don't know what's going on and we don't know what tomorrow brings.
And I know "looming shutdown" is something we all use to describe these moments while we're on the brink, but this one feels a little different because it was so unplanned and it really just came about all of a sudden, and no one knows where they're going to go to next.
[20:15:18] SCIUTTO: It seemed to follow a tweet, right, from Elon Musk and then sort of a backup tweet from the president-elect.
Brad, I mean, the cold, hard facts are that Republicans have the majority today, and they're going to have the majority in the House and the Senate. And by the way, the White House come the end of January. If Republicans want to get this across the finish line, why don't they whip Republicans to vote this across the finish line?
TODD: Well, they are whipping them. You're never going to get 218 Republicans to vote for a debt ceiling increase. And that's just not going to happen. And Democrats, by the way, all say they're for it. They criticized Republicans when they're against it. And the debt ceiling is suspended until January 1st.
So, I would correct Van on the notion that it's out of form here or out of place. It is time to do it.
Now, could Congress, the Treasury Department can use extraordinary measures and not have the country hit the debt ceiling until a little later this spring. But it does -- it is suspended until January 1st. It's germane to do right now.
You did have only two Democrats support this, so only two Democrats want to keep the government open. The rest of the Democrats want to shut it down. That's the clear fact tonight.
SCIUTTO: Yesterday, they did have a deal to a bipartisan deal to keep it open.
Van, I wonder about Elon Musk's role in this and what --
TODD: Wait, we had a deal with the leadership, Jim, they had to deal with the leadership, the rank and file hasn't signed off on that.
JONES: But that's how it works.
SCIUTTO: That is often how legislation works.
TODD: The Republican Party, we don't work top down --
SCIUTTO: As I understand it.
TODD: No. No, it is not. Republicans don't work top down.
SCIUTTO: But Van, on Elon Musk -- that's a fact -- in the House.
JONES: No hold on a second, you can't get away with this stuff. There's nothing more top down than Elon Musk sending a text message, a tweet to blow up your deal. That's top down. This was not some grassroots rebellion. This was Elon Musk sending out --
TODD: It sure was. Sure it was.
JONES: There is nothing more top down. Come on, I love you, we get along fine, but come on. SCIUTTO: It is a fact that this was a deal until Elon Musk tweeted and by the way, we should note and Don Bacon, a Republican sitting member of Congress, brought this up that in killing this deal, he was -- Elon Musk -- sharing falsities about the deal, for instance, saying it wasn't a 3.8 percent raise, it was a 40 percent raise. Not true.
Even falsities about how RFK stadium ownership in DC would be transferred.
TODD: Correct. That was false.
SCIUTTO: Do you worry, Brad, about the influence of Elon Musk, who, by the way, has his own skin in the game, including on restrictions on investment in China. Do you want him to be driving the Republican legislative agenda?
TODD: Well, I think Elon Musk has got a lot to learn about legislative strategy. I'll give you that and I don't -- he was wrong about many things in the bill, including the Commanders Stadium. That's true. And I think he's a rookie at this. A lot of rookies who come in the freshman class in Congress have a lot to learn, and so does he. But he'll probably learn it. He's a pretty smart guy. I think he'll catch on over time.
But let's be clear. The Republicans had to negotiate with the Democrats, in part because you have a few Republicans who will never do this. The Democrats drove too high a bargain and couldn't pass among the rank and file. That's just the facts.
If you're Hakeem Jeffries or you're Chuck Schumer, you can only go for a deal on one of these bills that can actually get the votes on the floor. This was too fat.
Now, we're going to end up with something thinner. Maybe it won't be what was on the floor tonight, but it will be something thinner to keep the government open.
SCIUTTO: So Rhonda, explain how they get to a thinner deal. And are you confident that they can get to that before midnight and a minute on Friday?
COLVIN: I don't know if anyone can be confident at this point, especially from what we're hearing from lawmakers who say they just don't know how this is going to shake out.
I don't know if there is a world where, because this vote failed, Speaker Johnson will go back to Trump and say, look, you see the numbers? You see, we can't get this done.
Or will they actually go into a shutdown? That's a real possibility based on what we're hearing tonight. So, we'll see. But I keep telling everyone this was quite a disruption. And the fact that you have so many, both senators and House members saying they just don't know where this is going. And we've only got another day. That's pretty telling.
SCIUTTO: No question and the holidays are coming quickly.
Rhonda, Van Jones, Brad Todd, thanks so much to all of you, particularly as we get close to the holidays ourselves.
Coming up next. Luigi Mangione's extradition and the new federal charges he's now facing in the execution style murder of a top health insurance executive.
Later, a striking new development in the wake of the Madison, Wisconsin, school shooting. What court documents reveal about the teenage killer and her contact with a 20-year-old. Was a second attack in the works?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:24:22]
SCIUTTO: Just two weeks and a day since UnitedHealthcare CEO Brian Thompson was gunned down on a Midtown Manhattan sidewalk. His alleged killer, Luigi Mangione, is spending his first night in a federal jail cell in Brooklyn.
Because today, on top of the state murder charges, he was already facing the federal government unexpectedly got in on the legal action. CNN's Shimon Prokupecz and Kara Scannell have been covering the story for us tonight. Let's begin with Shimon's report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SHIMON PROKUPECZ, CNN CRIME AND JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT (voice over): An extraordinary scene, 26-year-old Luigi Mangione shackled, wearing an orange jumpsuit. His first time back in New York City since police say he fled after UnitedHealthcare CEO, Brian Thompson was horrifically gunned down outside a Manhattan hotel on December 4th.
Mangione evading police for days before eventually being arrested at a McDonald's in Pennsylvania.
[20:25:15]
Today, surrounded by NYPD detectives and FBI agents wearing bulletproof vests and carrying long guns. Even New York City Mayor Eric Adams was there addressing the support Mangione has received.
MAYOR ERIC ADAMS (D), NEW YORK CITY: We don't use a gun, and anyone that celebrates that is vile and it is sending the wrong message that you're celebrating using violence to solve an issue.
PROKUPECZ: The whirlwind day beginning in Pennsylvania with Mangione leaving prison for the Blair County Courthouse, where he waived extradition.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We relinquished him to the custody of the New York City Police Department.
PROKUPECZ (voice over): He was placed in a Black SUV and immediately taken to the airport, and was flown by an NYPD plane to Long Island. From there, he was put on an NYPD chopper to Downtown Manhattan.
His attorneys believed Mangione would be appearing for state charges, but were redirected to a federal courthouse where Mangione faces charges of murder through use of a firearm, stalking, and a firearms offense.
His attorney, Karen Friedman Agnifilo, saying in court that this was a "highly unusual" situation that she'd never seen in 30 years of practicing law. She also said she had never seen a situation play out like this, and asked for clarification on whether federal and state prosecutors are conducting two separate investigations.
The federal complaint revealing new details about what Mangione allegedly wrote in a notebook found on him when he was arrested. An entry marked August 15th said, "The details are finally coming together and the target is insurance because it checks every box."
Another entry in October, "describes an intent to whack the CEO of one of the insurance companies at its major investor conference." Mangione also facing 11 state counts in New York, including first and second degree murder. Manhattan District Attorney Alvin Bragg saying both cases will proceed.
ALVIN BRAGG, MANHATTAN DISTRICT ATTORNEY: Speaking generally, we've had state prosecutions and federal prosecutions proceed as parallel matters, and were in conversations with our law enforcement counterparts.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SCIUTTO: What a journey for the former high school valedictorian. Shimon Prokupecz joins us. Also, CNN's Kara Scannell, who is in the courtroom for proceedings today.
Shimon, first, what can you tell us about where -- what kind of cell Mangione is being held in tonight?
PROKUPECZ: Yes, so it's in Brooklyn, as you said, it's called the MDC, the Metropolitan Detention Center. It's the only detention center that's left in this area in New York City. You know, it housed other very famous prisoners. Currently there is Sean Combs, P Diddy.
He is awaiting trial here in Manhattan as well. Ghislaine Maxwell, she was the woman who was convicted after her relationship with Jeffrey Epstein, of course, everyone will remember. She was housed there while she was on trial. She had complained about the conditions.
Look, the conditions there have been known by many of the people who criticize that facility. They say that the conditions where there is no water at times. There were issues with heat at one point years ago, and also just recently there were indictments against inmates who were trying to kill other inmates and also spot checks now are often happening at that jail.
So there are a lot of known issues and certainly it won't be perhaps a very comfortable time for Luigi Mangione. SCIUTTO: Not at all. Kara, you were inside that courtroom today, a chance to see Mangione. Tell us what it was like.
KARA SCANNELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The whole hearing lasted only 15 minutes, and Mangione had traded that orange jumpsuit for some street clothes. He is wearing khakis, a pullover navy blue shirt.
He was brought into the courtroom by the marshals, and he was shackled at his ankles. But he kept his hands in front of him, joined his attorney, sitting between them.
He didn't have any outbursts like we had seen when he was being transferred into the Pennsylvania -- the courthouse that one time, instead, he sat there. He answered the judge's questions just briefly by saying yes a few times. When she asked him if he understood his rights and if he understood exactly what he was being charged with. Both times he said yes.
Now, his lawyer, though, did stand up and say raising these questions about the state charges and the federal charges. She said in all of her years practicing in New York, she had never seen an instance where she'd started the day with an appointment to go to state court, where she expected him to be arraigned on those state charges, and then having to divert and change tactics and come to federal court to face federal charges.
She also said that she thought that these two charges were in conflict and question if authorities were even working together, because, she said, the state charges were saying that he committed murder with the purpose of instilling terror. And she said the federal charges were about stalking an individual.
So already perhaps laying out some of the defense tactics that she might deploy. The judge saying, though today that was not the time for this and Mangione's team didn't seek a bail package. So, he is in custody and will remain there until she does move to do that.
You know, at this point, Jim, though, he is going to be in federal court. They set a holding date for him to return in January, but it is more than likely that there will be an indictment at that time. He was charged by complaint today, and then he will be arraigned on those federal charges. Jim?
SCIUTTO: We know you'll be there watching.
Kara Scannell, Shimon Prokupecz as well, thanks so much.
Next, our legal team weighs in on just what Luigi Mangione is now up against in both state and federal court.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:35:16]
SCIUTTO: Luigi Mangione is in federal not state custody tonight facing fresh and largely unexpected charges on top of the first and second degree state murder counts, among others. A New York grand jury has indicted him on.
Perspective now from CNN Senior Legal Analyst Elie Honig, also Defense Attorney Danya Perry. Like Elie, she's a former federal prosecutor. We should also note that Karen Friedman Agnifilo, the suspect's attorney used to be affiliated with her law firm.
CNN's John Miller joins us too, as does New York City Judge George Grasso. Good to have you all on. John, I want to begin with you because you're learning new details about this tug-of-war to some degree between federal and state prosecutors.
JOHN MILLER, CNN CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT AND INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: Well, that's right. And what we've been following today and really since last night is kind of a tug-of-war between the United States attorney, the federal prosecutor in Manhattan, the place where Elie Honig used to work, and the Manhattan District attorney.
So this morning, they were set up with barricades in front of 100 Center Street, the state courthouse. The judge was up on the 13th floor arranging where a camera would be to shoot the arraignment. There was a special arrangement made to book the prisoner in the district attorney's office.
And by mid-morning, they found out he wasn't coming to be arraigned in state court by the district attorney on an indictment of felony murder charges including murder in the first degree. Instead, he was taken into custody by the NYPD handed over to the FBI and he was going to federal court.
And this was hastily arranged, caused a lot of confusion. But what you're not seeing, and this is important to note, is -- and we've kind of seen this before in other cases, any kind of battle between the FBI and the NYPD on who gets the arrest.
SCIUTTO: Right.
MILLER: What you're seeing is federal prosecutors going for a jump ball on this case. The federal prosecutor is using kind of a unique charge to go after a murder which is usually a state charge. And interestingly, the state prosecutors using what is usually a federal charge terrorism.
SCIUTTO: Yes, notable. OK, Danya, you're a criminal defense attorney as well as a former federal prosecutor. It struck me as Shimon noted there that we heard something of a potential line of argument for Mangione's defense attorney noting the differences between these two cases, the New York State charges with a terrorism enhancement for causing fear or attempting to strike fear among the population and the federal one had a stalking element to that.
I wonder, as a defense attorney, do you see an opening there for the defense to say, hey, these two are somehow conflicting?
DANYA PERRY, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR, SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NY: I'd like to say that I do, as a defense attorney, And as a former colleague and friend of Karen Agnifilo's. But they're really -- there's no tension really to exploit at all the federal and the state charges. Can be largely overlapping. They could really actually be the same because there's two -- there are two different sovereigns.
They could be wildly different. And there's no basis, there's no defense or legal argument that I could think of. So analytically, it's kind of interesting and that's true. And what was just said is also true that typically the terrorism charge is a federal one and stalking as a state one.
It's all, you know, a little muddled right now as you said. I think -- I was doing a podcast with Karen by mid-morning, she still thought she was going to arraignment in state court. And so, there's a lot up in the air and a lot of unknowns. But I think that one was just almost more looking, comparing and contrasting the two charging instruments --
SCIUTTO: Right.
PERRY: -- and saying, look interesting, but of no moment legally.
SCIUTTO: Elie, some have raised questions about the risk given the enormous and somewhat shocking outpouring of support for Mangione in the wake of this horrible cold-blooded murder, concern about jury nullification in this where -- in which case a jury might say, yes, the evidence points towards conviction, but we're still not going to convict him. What is your level of concern about that as a possibility?
ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Well, Jim, I was always worried about jury nullification even in the most routine cases I handled as a prosecutor. All it takes is one juror and you have a hung jury. So it's always the kind of thing that keeps prosecutors up at night.
And, yes, the risk here absolutely is elevated. I've never seen an outpouring of affection and support for a defendant charged with a vicious murder like we have in this case. However, I want to say a couple things. One, the jury selection process is really effective, not perfect, but really effective at weeding out people who were biased.
We saw in the Trump trial, we saw --
SCIUTTO: Yes.
HONIG: -- half of the jury just got up and walked out because they felt they were too biased.
[20:40:06]
The other thing is, it's one thing to pop off on social media, to post a meme or something. It's another thing to sit through weeks of evidence about someone who shot someone in the back to get a jury instruction from a judge like Judge Grasso who tells you your job is to apply the law and then to nullify. So, yes, you have to be aware of it, but there are important systemic controls here against it.
SCIUTTO: Yes. Listen, every time that video comes up as we just showed it there, it's --
HONIG: Right.
SCIUTTO: -- and the planning that went into it and what we're learning about his manifesto saying, right, this will tick a lot of boxes and, you know, to whack an insurance executive. I mean, it speaks to planning.
I wonder, George Grasso, I want to play a clip of something that Karen Friedman Agnifilo said on this program last week about Mangione's possible defense, another potential line of defense. I should note this was before she was announced as his attorney. Have a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)
KAREN FRIEDMAN AGNIFILO, LUIGI MANGIONE'S ATTORNEY: The evidence is going to be so overwhelming that he did what he did. And I hear what you're saying about being radicalized, I hear what you guys are saying, but as a former prosecutor in that office, I would be concerned that you have someone who is a valedictorian of his class. He was brilliant his whole life.
He comes from this great family. I mean something changed, right? Significantly, something changed. And they're going to I think potentially have a not guilty by reason of insanity potential defense.
(END VIDEOCLIP)
SCIUTTO: She's now the lawyer. George Grasso, do you see that as a potential line of defense?
GEORGE GRASSO, RETIRED NYC CRIMINAL COURT JUDGE: Well, I know Karen well and I respect her but, frankly, I don't see it here. The reason I don't see it is because there's so much publicly available information, like, for example, I read the federal complaint today and a lot of other data.
This is a very careful and methodically planned event remarkable. And credit to the NYPD is they were able to put in hundreds if not thousands of hours to make an almost reverse documentary of the actions of this individual.
Well, to show insanity to the level that he would be excused criminally, I think is a long shot. I also think it's really bad news for Luigi Mangione and good news for the rule of law the action that the federal government took today, because that brings this case to a whole another level.
Because the murder charge involves there, that people aren't really talking about that too much involves the death penalty is not available in the state of Manhattan (ph). And it also involves a mythology, you know, using the stalking laws to weave in murder.
I think is pretty much right down the middle of the plate based on the evidence as we have now. On the other hand, Alvin Bragg, who will have to take a backseat here. He can talk all he wants to give press conferences that they're going to move on parallel tracks. They're not going to move on parallel tracks.
The federal government is going to dictate the pace. And Bragg, I think he made the right move using terrorism to get to murder one, but that's kind of untested at this level. And if he got a conviction, it would certainly go to the Court of Appeals.
So for a lot of reasons, it makes perfect sense for the rule of law for the federal government to go first, use all their leverage that they have with this being a death penalty case. Greg takes a backseat. We see what happens there and ultimately we have justice.
And anyone who thinks Mangione is a hero really needs a psychiatrist. I can't find --
SCIUTTO: Yes.
GRASSO: -- anything heroic in stalking a man and shooting him in the back.
SCIUTTO: A father of two, right, as well. I mean, so it's just a remarkable to see that. So common.
Danya, do you see it playing out similarly here that the feds have the upper hand now?
PERRY: Yes, and I think Elie would probably agree with me having seen so many of these turf wars. The feds -- I agree with the judge, the feds usually win that tug of war. We saw both acting U.S. Attorney Edward Kim and District Attorney Alvin Bragg who grew up together at the Attorney's Office actually speaking very nicely, you know, as colleagues.
But, you know, about -- we're going to run in parallel tracks. But in practice and in reality, that is not going to be the case. I do agree that the feds will surely go first, even though at first blush you would think these seem more suited to a state charges.
But when that's bumped up to first-degree murder, I agree as well with the judge I guess on everything that that makes it a lot harder and therefore easier for the feds to go first.
MILLER: One thing I would say, Jim, is at the statement that they issued from the U.S. Attorney today, they said that the current plan, so they left it qualified, that the state case, the DA's case would go first. But that leaves them a lot of room to negotiate or please in both cases and to package them together.
SCIUTTO: Yes, it's a high-profile case, right? Folks are going to want to be on the lead.
Thanks so much to all of you. Appreciate it.
[20:45:04]
Coming up next, we're getting more details on tonight's failed effort to avert a government shutdown. Tomorrow night, and what, if anything, the Republicans who tanked the latest spending deal plan to do next. Do they have a plan?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SCIUTTO: We have new developments to bring you in the wake of tonight's failure by House Republicans to pass a Republican crafted legislation to head off a government shutdown. A remarkable 38 GOP members voted No tonight just a day after Elon Musk and President- elect Trump blew up what was a bipartisan bill.
Let's go back now to Manu Raju on Capitol Hill. Manu, I wonder what's been happening in the little less than an hour since we last spoke.
[20:50:05]
MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, actually the House is gone for the night, Jim. In fact, this means that we are going hour by hour. We're inching closer to a shutdown with no way to avert it at the moment. The Speaker of the House right now is in his office. He's meeting with Republicans trying to figure out if there is any way forward.
The Speaker himself tonight did not indicate what that path is. And I have talked to a lot of Republican members, senior Republicans. They are at a loss about how they resolve this issue because of the late demands made by Donald Trump namely to suspend the national debt limit that for two years. That's something that Republican conservative members in Johnson's own conference say they will absolutely not accept. They want deep spending cuts.
And we have Democrats who say they're not going to allow to move ahead with that because they believe doing so will make it easier to advance the Trump agenda next year. So then what does that mean? That means Donald Trump will either to change his posture back off his demands.
Maybe Mike Johnson was to try to defy Donald Trump, but that could come at some major risks for his own speakership or perhaps or some sort of bipartisan deal that can be reached in the 11th hour. That is going to be a huge question as we head into tomorrow, where House Democrats are planning to convene behind closed doors.
Tomorrow morning, Jim, we're trying to figure out their strategy going forward. But at the moment, there is no clear solution in sight as a shutdown looms and midnight tomorrow night, he can drag on for some time, Jim.
SCIUTTO: Hakeem Jeffries has said Democrats are not going to bail Republicans out of this, but do you think it's possible after a meeting tomorrow if they get enough in return that there could be a resurrection of a bipartisan agreement?
RAJU: It's hard to see exactly what that is, Jim, because the issue about the debt ceiling is so significant. That is such a complex, complicated issue. And if Hakeem Jeffries were to give in on that issue, that would take away a key point of leverage that Democrats want to use in the next year.
If they were to concede on that right now, then it would be easier to pass Donald Trump's tax cuts that he wants a --
SCIUTTO: Yes.
RAJU: -- brave push forward in the new year and the tax cut plan is gone be vigorously opposed by Democrats. So that's going to be a huge question. And typically these negotiations, Jim, as you know, they take weeks, they take months to happen in a day for something that complex --
SCIUTTO: Yes.
RAJU: -- seems highly, highly unlikely. So unless there's a quick resolution to say a one-week continuing resolution to keep the government open for a week or a few days, it's hard to see how a shutdown is not avoided by tomorrow night.
SCIUTTO: Yes. Listen, and by the way, they're going to have a smaller as you know, a smaller majority following into the new year than they have even now. Just curious, will they be working through the weekend because I know Members of Congress like nothing more than to get on a plane home?
RAJU: Yes. Right now, they've told their members the leadership has not to leave town, Jim. So they are hoping that members will stay in town, but some may leave and that could lead to some attendance issues --
SCIUTTO: Yes.
RAJU: -- particularly if there is a close vote. But members, there are a lot of them are weighed bracing to be here maybe up until Christmas, Jim.
SCIUTTO: Well, that means you're going to be working, too, Manu. Thanks so much.
RAJU: Unfortunately, yes.
SCIUTTO: Still ahead, new details on the Wisconsin school shooting and the possible link between the shooter there and a California man who authorities say was planning a second attack along with the team. Plus, we're learning about the victims. That's coming up.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:57:27]
SCIUTTO: We are learning new details tonight about the 15-year-old girl who killed a fellow student and a teacher at a Christian school in Wisconsin just this past Monday. Investigators are looking into a possible link between her and a California man who authorities claim was planning another attack.
CNN's Whitney Wild has more.
(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE) WHITNEY WILD, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The 15- year-old girl police say shot and killed two people and wounded six more at Abundant Life Christian School in Wisconsin appears to have been in contact with a 20-year-old man in California, that according to court records obtained by CNN.
Alexander Paffendorf of Carlsbad, California was plotting a mass shooting with the teen and told FBI agents during an interview that he would arm himself with explosives and a gun and that he would target a government building.
ALEX GALLEGOS, PAFFENDORF'S NEIGHBOR: I've only seen him a few times. He's real quiet. I'm just glad that the cops and everybody FBI whoever was on top of it and is getting to the bottom of it before anything bad happened.
WILD (voice-over): A California judge has issued a gun violence emergency protective order under the state's red flag law against Paffendorf. According to the order, FBI agents saw the messages between him and the teen. It also demands Paffendorf give up his guns and any ammunition within 48 hours unless police take them sooner.
GALLEGOS: A couple hours into it towards the end, they're carrying out a big black box, looked like a gun case of some sort.
WILD (voice-over): It's still not clear if he's in custody or if he will face charges. The FBI is not commenting. CNN has also reached out to Paffendorf, but hasn't heard back.
In Wisconsin, new details emerging about the shooting. Police now say two guns were recovered at the school, but won't say who owns them or how she got them. Meanwhile, four people injured in the shooting are now home while two other students are still fighting for their lives in the hospital. A local pastor saying that one of them needs a miracle.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The students, the families --
WILD (voice-over): As the community and the police search for answers, we're learning more about those killed. 14-year-old Rubi Vergara was an avid reader, a talented artist and singer according to an obituary written far too soon. 42-year-old Erin West was the substitute coordinator and in-house substitute teacher.
Sophomore Mackynzie Wilson says she was beloved.
MACKYNZIE WILSON, SOPHOMORE AT ABUNDANT LIFE CHRISTIAN SCHOOL: She's a really good person. She really loved her kids and she really loved everyone at our school, and she would have done anything for them.
WILD (voice-over): Her mom Linsay O'Connor, a former student here, says their legacies will live on.
LINSAY O'CONNOR, FORMER STUDENT AT ABUNDANT LIFE CHRISTIAN SCHOOL: They're integrated into our lives, and they will be forever remembered. (END VIDEO TAPE)
WILD (on-camera): Jim, we've reached out to the school as well as the police department to find out more details about those children who remain in the hospital. We have not heard any further detail other than to say that, yes, they are still in the hospital. Jim, back to you.
SCIUTTO: Yes. Those poor people and their families.
Whitney Wild, thanks so much.
And the news continues. The Source with Kaitlan Collins starts right now.
