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Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees

House Ethics Report Finds Evidence Matt Gaetz Paid Thousands for Sex and Drugs Including Paying a 17-Year-Old for Sex in 2017; Mangione Pleads Not Guilty to State Terror and Murder Charges; Biden Commuted Most Federal Death Sentences To Life Without Parole Before Trump Takes Office; Paul Whelan On His Russian Imprisonment. Aired 8- 9p ET

Aired December 23, 2024 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

JONATHAN DEKEL-CHEN, FATHER OF ISRAELI-AMERICAN HELD HOSTAGE BY HAMAS: ... it's a daily challenge and we need them home. And they, you know, just speaking for ourselves, I need my son to be reunited with his three little girls and his beautiful wife.

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN HOST: Jonathan Dekel-Chen, thank you so much.

DEKEL-CHEN: Thank you for having me.

BOLDUAN: Thank you.

And thank you all so much for joining us, AC360 starts right now.

[20:00:29]

ERICA HILL, CNN HOST: Tonight on 360, his nomination to be attorney general lasted just eight days. The House Ethics Committee's investigation to Matt Gaetz took years and now, even though he's no longer a congressman, that report detailing alleged sexual, criminal and ethical wrongdoing is out.

Also tonight, the alleged CEO killer in court answering to first degree murder charges.

And the breaking news, former President Bill Clinton hospitalized, tonight. Details on his condition.

Good evening, I'm Erica Hill in for Anderson tonight.

The man who might have been the country's top law enforcement official tonight is also a man whose former colleagues today, in a stunning break with tradition, chose to publicly accuse him of having sex with a minor, of regularly paying women for sex, using or possessing illegal drugs, accepting improper gifts and other acts, including obstructing the investigation into those allegations. And honestly, those are just the bullet points from the introduction to the House Ethics Committee's report.

A document the committee acknowledged it would not ordinarily release given that Gaetz resigned from Congress the day he was nominated for AG and then, of course, withdrew from consideration. Again, that happened just eight days later.

Quoting from the report now, "The Committee does not do so lightly, saying in this instance, although several committee members objected, a majority of the members of the committee agreed that the committee's findings should be released to the public."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MATT GAETZ (R) FORMER CONGRESSMAN: It is a horrible allegation and it is a lie.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: That was then-Congressman Gaetz shortly after news of the sex with a minor allegation broke. And now he continues to deny any wrongdoing and actually went to court today to try to block publication of this report.

CNN's Katelyn Polantz is joining me now with more. So what more is in this report? There are certainly some very damning allegations in here.

KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN SENIOR CRIME AND JUSTICE REPORTER: There is, Erica, and it was impossible for Matt Gaetz to block the publication of this report. The House put it out there and his lawsuit was dismissed pretty quickly from court today. But what the House found, not only in the broad brush of what they say were violations of their standards of conduct, substantial evidence of things like prostitution or him engaging in paying women for commercial sex, statutory rape, illicit drug use.

They also get into the details in this House Ethics Committee report weaving together not just the trace of payments that they were able to assemble, showing Venmo payments of hundreds of dollars to women from various accounts used or affiliated with Gaetz, but also the testimony of women themselves, including a victim, a 17-year-old girl at the time in July 2017 who was having sex with Matt Gaetz at a party.

The committee writes about that victim. The committee received testimony, that Victim A and Representative Gaetz had sex twice during the party, including at least once in the presence of other party attendees. Victim A recalled receiving $400.00 in cash from Representative Gaetz that evening, which she understood to be payment for sex. At the time, she had just completed her junior year of high school. The federal government, the federal Justice Department, did investigate him for federal sex trafficking violations and other possible crimes, did not charge him with anything.

So, the House Ethics Committee picked up its investigation, and they found not just this situation with this then underage girl, but they say that many women that Gaetz was having sex with were receiving money for drugs or for the sex to the tune of hundreds, if not thousands of dollars.

And then on top of that, this violation of standards of conduct in the House, it includes him doing drugs.

Another quote from the report, another woman said that she brought cocaine to at least one event with Representative Gaetz, and that she witnessed him taking cocaine or ecstasy on at least five occasions.

Mr. Greenberg, that's a witness, told the committee that he would typically provide drugs, such as ecstasy, for events he attended, and Representative Gaetz would pay him back in cash.

Several other women observed Representative Gaetz to be under the influence of drugs. Now, Matt Gaetz, he obviously didn't want that report out there today, but he also has said repeatedly to the committee directly and then in public that these allegations against him are false.

HILL: As you noted, his last ditch effort to keep this report from being released failed. Is there any other legal recourse that he has at this point?

POLANTZ: There is a question out there about what happens next. The committee did raise the possibility that they think he may have made false statements or obstructed Congress in trying to delay or defer them from getting information from him. There's also a question of what Florida might do, although we have no evidence at this time to believe that Florida is investigating Matt Gaetz for what the committee says they think could be statutory rape.

[20:05:23]

HILL: And that's for that, that incident that involved the minor, the 17-year-old at the time that you mentioned. Katelyn, appreciate it.

POLANTZ: Thank you.

HILL: Joining us now, CNN political commentator, Brad Todd. Jasmine Wright, political reporter for NOTUS. And CNN political commentator, Van Jones.

It's good to see you all. So, Jasmine, as we look at this, the fact that the House Ethics Committee had initially voted along party lines to keep this report sealed. What changed? What convinced some Republicans on the Ethics Committee to instead change their vote and release this report.

JASMINE WRIGHT, POLITICAL REPORTER, NOTUS: Yes, Erica. Well, I think you're right. There was always going to be a question of whether they would, whether they not. But ultimately, two Republicans sided with Democrats to release this report. That's not, of course, the chair. The chair didn't want that out. He said it within the report. And another Democrat on that bipartisan committee.

But I think what's really interesting here is that this is a committee of Matt Gaetz's peers, former peers, and potentially future peers that voted to release that. They said that it was for transparency's sake, making the case that the American public deserved to know what a sitting member of Congress was accused of. Now, of course, Matt Gaetz has denied all of these allegations. And in fact, kind of accused this committee of weaponizing this information that he again denies as false against him.

But still, this was a group of his peers, really pushing this information out into the public zeitgeist, not into the court of law, but of course, the court of public opinion in a really stunning example, because of course, we know that Matt Gaetz resigned from Congress.

HILL: Yes, it's such an important point. The fact that they clearly wanted this information out there, as you say in the court of public opinion.

Van, we looked at this as recently as yesterday, you had Matt Gaetz floating the idea of another run for office, knowing this report, right, was likely coming out.

Today, you have Trump ally, Steve Bannon saying, "Gaetz has to come back. Don't back down. Double down."

In this world that we live in, let's say Matt Gaetz does launch a potential bid for office. Does any of this serve as disqualifying in any way for voters?

VAN JONES, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, it used to. It would have. It's hard to know in this environment we find ourselves now. The one thing that's very clear is, you know, Gaetz has a lot of enemies.

He has people in his own party that all they had to do was just go with their party chair and go with the committee chair and go with precedent and this would have had to be leaked, but at least it wouldn't have been put out in this way.

This lets you know this guy has POed some serious people and serious places that were talking about this tonight, but does it make him a martyr or a villain to Florida voters? We'll probably find out pretty soon.

HILL: When we look at this, just because Matt Gaetz obviously withdrew that nomination for AG, it doesn't mean that there could not be a role in a Trump administration, Brad, that does not require Senate confirmation where we could see him as a part of that administration. How do you see this report impacting those chances to Van's point, martyr or villain? Does this elevate or lower his status with Donald Trump?

BRAD TODD, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I think first off, his relationship with Donald Trump is from the campaign where he was a key member of their debate prep team. So there, I think Donald Trump knows what he got with Matt Gaetz.

Donald Trump pulled him back after he was clear he was not going to get the votes in the Senate, and he didn't have a problem with three or four votes. He had a problem of 23 or 24 votes in the Senate that he was not going to get from Republicans. I also think you have to look at the makeup of this Ethics Committee. You know, Michael Guest, who's the chairman, is a former prosecutor. You have another former prosecutor on there and a former sheriff on there just on the Republican side, they are serious people who look into these things with all due process, and they're charged with not only upholding the rules of the House, but also the reputation of the House.

And they find in the report, if you read the details of the report, there are several indications that perhaps Matt Gaetz was guilty of accepting favors and gifts that violate the House gift panel. Well, that's exactly the kind of thing that the Ethics Committee is charged with enforcing.

And so, I think he knew he was going to have a problem with the Ethics Committee. That's why he skated out of Congress. That's why he resigned from the next Congress when he didn't even have to. He could have gone in the next Congress and waited out his nomination chances for attorney general, but instead he resigned from both Congresses. I think that tells you a lot.

We also know Matt Gaetz didn't sit for an interview. They asked him back in July to come sit for a voluntary interview or respond to a Senate subpoena for the Ethics Committee. He chose not to do that. Those things tell us things about where he stands regarding the charges.

HILL: And Jasmine, when we look at all of this. What are you hearing from your sources in terms of whether or not we may hear Donald Trump weigh in publicly?

[20:10:12]

WRIGHT: Yes, well, what I've heard from my sources, people close to Trump, is that some are actually surprised that the report actually came out, because Matt Gaetz is no longer a sitting member of Congress, because of the way that he resigned. But I think the question on a lot of people's minds in and around Mar-a-Lago and certainly here in DC, is whether or not Trump is going to publicly come out and kind of bless this.

I think what we've seen in the reality, getting to Van's first point is that some of these Republicans live in different realities, which is that if you are a Trump loyalist, you kind of have a different playbook and a report like this may not be as damaging as somebody who is not within Trump's favor.

Now, one thing that I heard from somebody is that if he does bless Matt Gaetz, right, put his hand over him. That will take a lot of political capital for the president-elect. So maybe there's a chance that if he doesn't go to OAN network and that he doesn't go back to Congress, that he becomes a member of the administration in a seat that doesn't need to be confirmed.

But there is a major question of if Trump is kind of getting all of these different guidance and reports from his advisers, which way he will go, and I think that's kind of a largely a major question here.

HILL: Yes, we will be watching and waiting. I guess --

TODD: There may be 500 and --

HILL: Go ahead.

TODD: Well, there's 535 members of Congress, and there might be three of them that want Matt Gaetz in some kind of job in the administration. So, the president-elect may factor his unpopularity in Congress before he does anything.

HILL: Well see or maybe Elon Musk will weigh in. Who knows? Oh, to be a fly on the wall.

Brad, Jasmine, Van, thank you all.

Just up here next, Luigi Mangione, his arraignment today on state charges, including first degree murder and the kind of cases ahead for him now in both state and federal court.

And still to come, everything that we've learned about what is ailing former President Bill Clinton, he has been hospitalized tonight, of course, two days before Christmas. That update and much more when AC360 continues.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:16:29]

HILL: When we ended last week, alleged CEO killer, Luigi Mangione, had been unexpectedly charged with federal crimes, including a murder count carrying a potential death sentence. So that pushed his arraignment on state charges to this morning. CNN's Shimon Prokupecz was there.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

COURT OFFICIAL: The crime of murder in the first degree and other related charges. How do you plead to this indictment, sir? Guilty or not guilty?

LUIGI MANIONE, ALLEGED CEO KILLER: Not guilty.

SHIMON PROKUPECZ, CNN CRIME AND JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Accused killer, Luigi Mangione, back in court. This time for the charges he faces in New York State. Wearing khakis and a maroon sweater shackled at the wrists and ankles. The camera in court capturing the 26-year-old as he faces 11 state charges that include murder in the first degree and murder in the second degree as a crime of terrorism for the alleged killing of UnitedHealthcare CEO, Brian Thompson.

KAREN FRIEDMAN AGNIFILO, MANGIONE'S ATTORNEY: He's a young man and he is being treated like a human ping-pong ball. PROKUPECZ (voice over): His attorney slamming the way Mangione was paraded before cameras when being brought back to New York City from Pennsylvania.

AGNIFILO: They are literally treating him like he is -- like some sort of political fodder, like some sort of spectacle.

PROKUPECZ (voice over): During the arraignment, with rare camera access being allowed to record the proceedings, prosecutors disclosing just how much evidence they have.

JOEL SEIDEMANN, PROSECUTOR: I have never seen a case with such volume of evidence. Aside from the issue of the quality of the evidence, this is not a usual case in terms of the thousands of hours of video tracking and the like.

PROKUPECZ (voice over): Mangione seen smiling at times while talking with his legal team. Outside court, a small group of protesters gathered to voice their support for Mangione.

PROTESTERS: Can't get the human right. We shouldn't have to fight.

PROKUPECZ (voice over): The hearing ended with Mangione casually folding some papers before police escorted him away.

REPORTER: Luigi, do you have anything to say?

PROKUPECZ (voice over): Mangione also faces federal charges that include murder through the use of a firearm. The state trial is expected to come first. Mangione faces a maximum sentence of life in prison for the state charges, and prosecutors could decide to seek a death penalty in the federal case.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PROKUPECZ (on camera): And Erica, Mangione will be back in that Manhattan court on February 21st. As the legal process gets underway -- Erica.

HILL: Shimon, appreciate it, thank you.

Also with me now, John Miller, our chief law enforcement and intelligence analyst. He's also a former NYPD deputy chief and former federal prosecutor, Jeffrey Toobin and New York City defense and trial attorney Misty Marris.

Good to have all of you here.

So, John, as we look at this, there are still actually some questions. And Shimon touched on this in his piece about whether the state or the federal trial could go first. The sense is, state is first, but could anything derail that?

JOHN MILLER, CNN CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT AND INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: Well, it could change but the federal prosecutors said on Friday that they carefully couched that they expect the state trial to proceed before the federal trial. So, the state trial could take a year before it comes around to trial. And the federal trial could come sometime before that. I mean, some good time after that.

HILL: Right, so as we as we look at all of this, I was struck by just some of the moments in court today.

So, the attorney -- the defense attorney for Mangione, Karen Friedman Agnifilo, she was really drilling down on what's now become this infamous perp walk, right, that we saw, including the involvement of New York City Mayor Eric Adams. She also said she believed it was actually unconstitutional. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

AGNIFILO: Your Honor knows under Lauro v. Charles, the Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit has held it to be clearly established that the staged perp walks to the media unrelated to a legitimate law enforcement objective is unconstitutional.

And I submit there was zero law enforcement objective to do that sort of perp walk.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[20:20:26]

HILL: She said he was political fodder. She basically was saying this was performative. There was zero law enforcement objective to having what we saw on Friday. You spent years as a prosecutor. Do you agree?

JEFFREY TOOBIN, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: No, I don't agree. I mean, prosecutors and police have to get defendants from point A to point B when there is a lot of police interest, a public interest, there are going to be cameras following them. I don't blame Agnifilo for raising this. This is something defense attorneys often do and should do. And you know, keep try to keep the publicity under control.

What they are going to try to do is delay things. Get this thing on a slower, you know, timeline so that they can study thousands of hours of video evidence, lots of forensic evidence, and also allow passions to cool around the case. You know, it is a classic strategy. The prosecution always wants to go right away, defense wants to delay.

Here, given the magnitude of the evidence. Prosecutor even said it in court. The defense is going to have very good reasons to delay this as John said, for as much as a year, if not longer.

HILL: It is interesting, though, that was it was not just the perp walk right, where she was calling out Eric Adams. There was also another moment that I want to play that I think has stood out to a lot of us.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

AGNIFILO: Your Honor, the mayor should know more than anyone about the presumption of innocence that he, too, is afforded when he is dealing with his own issues. And frankly, I submit that he was just trying to detract from those issues by making a spectacle of Mr. Mangione.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: Misty, she's saying there that he is trying to distract from his own legal issues as a defense attorney. Smart strategy?

MISTY MARRIS, DEFENSE AND TRIAL ATTORNEY: Well, and also a little thinly veiled statement about Eric Adams and his and his own problems, right?

But certainly, a defense attorney has an obligation to their client to preserve any defenses that they may want to raise along the course of the case. And right now, what we see is laying the foundation for these constitutional challenges relating to whether or not Mangione can get a fair trial, whether his due process rights have been violated.

And Jeff made great points about how transporting someone who's such a high profile defendant from point A to point B is obviously going to garner significant media attention. That being said, there's a difference from a defense perspective, and this will be the argument when you have the mayor of New York City at the helm with those cameras and then making a statement after the fact that he, in fact, participated for the very purpose of making a statement to the public regarding these types of things happening in New York City as a deterrent.

So, that's where we're seeing this argument shaping right at the very beginning of the case.

TOOBIN: We should remind people, just so people out there don't know, Eric Adams is the mayor, is currently under federal indictment, so he will be going to trial in the same courthouse as Mangione at some point. However, you know, he's still the mayor. And this is a major news event in New York City. He should be allowed to comment on it.

HILL: So there's a comment like what we heard from Karen in court today. Does that backfire at some point?

TOOBIN: You know, this is going to go on for so long. I don't think anybody is going to remember a year from now what Eric Adams did or didn't say about Mangione. You know, this is what goes on in these high profile cases, but time takes care of a lot of the wounds.

HILL: You mentioned and we were talking about the sheer volume of evidence there is, John, when there are bits and pieces that we know, obviously. But what is your sense of just how extensive that is and how much that will add to the timeline here?

MILLER: Excuse me, it's going to add a lot. It's hundreds of interviews. It's hundreds of exhibits. It's the DNA evidence. It's the ballistic evidence. It's the microscopic tests. It's all the tips that came into the tip line.

It's all the other suspects that they looked at as potentially prime suspects before Mangione was arrested. And it is chiefly and when you talk about they said, get us two terabyte hard drive to load this evidence onto because it will blow up the portal that they use on regular cases.

It's principally thousands of hours of video which have relevant snatches of a couple of minutes or seconds here or there, but they're entitled to get all of it.

HILL: As we look at all of that playing out, were also talking about a very high profile defendant here, right, in federal custody right now, in a prison that is not known for being necessarily a great place to stay while you're awaiting trial, how does the high profile nature of this defendant figure into the way that he's going to be treated behind bars?

[20:25:22]

MILLER: He's in the same federal jail as P Diddy right now. There are other high profile defendants in there. The question is, will he be segregated because he's in a very notoriety driven case, or will he be in general population? And the other major question is, will he stay there? I mean, they had to borrow him from the feds today to the purpose of this hearing, and they had to give him back.

At some point, these judges are going to have to get together, and these prosecutors are going to have to get together and say, while he is being held for a state trial, is he going to be transferred to state custody? At which point he ends up in Rikers Island, which is equally, if not more so unpleasant place.

HILL: Yes.

TOOBIN: There is often a lot of competition between state and federal prosecutors for high profile cases. Everybody is being very nice now, but you can be sure there is some serious negotiating going on behind the scenes. And frankly, the feds usually win because they have more resources. Here, they're suggesting that the state will go first.

HILL: Right.

TOOBIN: Stay tuned.

HILL: There's a lot of work to do. Probably no surprise that that the guilty the plea rather today was not guilty. But really quickly there are questions about what the defense will be. There's also been a lot of talk today about the fact that the defendant and his attorney were essentially in matching outfits.

As a defense attorney, it was hard to it miss, is there anything to read into that, or are we all just desperate for something to talk about?

MARRIS: It's hard to miss, I agree. I don't think they plan to wear matching outfits necessarily, but it's been amazing the way with Mangione, every single issue regarding his appearance has really been at the forefront of the conversation. But yes, we don't know how the defense is going to play out. It's largely going to depend on what's admissible in that courtroom. And I think Jeff made a great point about the feds and the state push pull on the back end. I'm wondering what happens on Jan 20 when we're talking about the Department of Justice and a new attorney general, and maybe not so nice between Alvin Bragg's office and that particular office.

So, we could see some changes along the way about how that tension plays out.

HILL: Yes, really appreciate it, Misty, John. Thank you very much, Mr. Toobin, stick around. We are going to get your take on President Biden's decision to commute the sentences of all but three of the 40 federal death row inmates.

Also ahead, the latest on former President Clinton and his health. He has been hospitalized tonight.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:31:58]

ERICA HILL, CNN HOST: Former President Clinton spending the night in a Washington, D.C. hospital. And though his condition is not being described as urgent, let alone dire, it's important to note at 78, he has a history of heart disease, leading to some questions tonight. CNN's Kayla Tausche joining us now with more. So, Kayla, what more do we know about why the former president is in the hospital and what this means for his overall health?

KAYLA TAUSCHE, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Erica, former President Bill Clinton was admitted to MedStar Hospital in Georgetown earlier this afternoon out of what his aides call an abundance of caution after he developed a fever. They describe him as awake and alert and say that he's undergoing testing and observation after developing that fever at his Washington area home earlier today.

Now they say that he's in good spirits. He's happy. He's receiving good medical care. But certainly, Erica, a fever is not normally something that would send you to the hospital. So that is why his history of medical issues is coming into the conversation here. That being said, his aides say that he hopes to be home by Christmas, but he will be there at least overnight.

HILL: So he's saying there at least overnight. As you mentioned, there is this history of medical issues. I mean just remind us of some of -- some of what he has faced health-wise since leaving office.

TAUSCHE: Well, he's been out of office now for nearly a quarter of a century. And in that time he's undergone multiple surgeries. In 2004, quadruple bypass heart surgery after experiencing chest pain and shortness of breath. The following year, he had surgery for a collapsed lung. And he later also received two stents that were -- that were inserted into his heart. So certainly he has had several of these operations. But in just four years ago, he was also hospitalized for urological infection that led to a blood condition known as sepsis, which can be fatal. Medical analysts on our air today have pointed out that one of the symptoms of that is fever. So certainly that is one of the reasons why they want to have him seriously evaluated in this moment. Erica?

HILL: Understandably. Kayla Tausche with the update for us, thank you.

Turning now to the surprise action today by President Biden, commuting the sentences of 37 of the 40 federal prisoners currently on death row, commuting the sentences to life without parole. Now, this comes, of course, before the President-elect who supports capital punishment takes office, the Trump transition team calling the move a, quote, abhorrent decision, adding that it benefits those, quote, among the worst killers in the world.

Back with us, Jeff Toobin, he's the author of the upcoming book "The Pardon: The Politics of Presidential Mercy." And also us former federal judge, Nancy Gertner. Good to have both you. Judge Gertner, I want to point out you were one of those 38 legal voices who sent a letter to President Biden asking him specifically to commute all the sentences of those on federal death row. How do you feel about this decision to commute all but three?

NANCY GERTNER, FORMER FEDERAL JUDGE: Well, I think the decision to commute even the numbers that he did was terribly important. There are all sorts of challenges to the death penalty that have been growing over years. The concern that innocent people are being executed, the profound disparities between black and white people who wind up on -- on death row, even the public support for the death penal -- penalty has waned.

[20:35:10]

So I think that what President Biden did was -- was exactly right. It's interesting. He was actually a prime sponsor of the 1994 crime bill, which led to additional federal death penalties. So what's interesting is that the facts have moved him, and as they should all of us.

HILL: I mean, Jeff, I know you've made the point, too, that no one has actually been released from prison because of these commutations and these pardons from President Biden. Those who were pardoned where, you know, had already been released, essentially. Do you anticipate, because he can, that he will go farther in the final weeks of his presidency?

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: You know, pardons are anomaly -- are an anomaly in our constitutional system because there are no checks and balances. It's just what the president wants. And you learn a lot about presidents through their -- through their pardons. With Biden, there are very contradictory elements. He is a serious Catholic. The Catholic Church is opposed to the death penalty.

One tip off that he was going to issue these commutations is he's going to see the Pope next month. And the Pope has urged him -- urged him to do that. However, he is also part of a generation of Democrats that really wanted to be tough on crime. He was a sponsor of the crime bill under Bill Clinton, which expanded the death penalty, made it harder to challenge death penalty convictions. And he is reluctant to let anyone out of prison. He -- he commuted 1,500 sentences last -- a couple weeks ago, they were all already out of prison.

These 37 are never leaving prisoners. So he has not actually let anyone out of prison yet. And I don't know as going forward whether he's going to do that. He has hundreds of Justice Department approved pardon recommendations on his desk. I don't know if he'll sign them.

HILL: Yes. What he'll choose to do with those. He in his statement today, he wrote, in good conscience, I cannot stand back and let a new administration resume executions that I halted. Judge Gertner, what are your concerns when it comes to President-elect Trump's policy toward executions?

GERTNER: Well, we know the last time that there were, I think it was 13 executions, which his orders had hastened. And we know that among that group were people with intellectual disabilities. We know among that group, one woman in particular who had been suffered extraordinary abuse. I mean, these were executions that were done with, in my view, unseemly haste to -- to get them through. And given the kinds of problems with the death penalty, it should give all of us pause.

We know that the death penalty is not a meaningful deterrent. The concerns for victims, which are very important, are oftentimes exacerbated by death penalty prosecutions, which last years and years and years. In the -- in the Boston bomber case, for example, one of the victims, the family of one of the victims, urged the court to in fact allow him to plead guilty to life without parole. So it could be over. So I would be very troubled by another sort of rush to kill people, which is really what these executions are.

TOOBIN: Even Luigi Mangione, that decision about whether they will seek the death penalty is certainly going to before the Trump Justice Department, not the Biden Justice Department. Under -- under Biden, there have been, I think, only one request for a death penalty case. There will certainly be more under -- under Trump.

HILL: You talked about how conflicted President Biden is in a lot of ways. Do you think he is more or less conflicted after making the decision to pardon Hunter Biden?

TOOBIN: I think he is more attentive to the issue. When he pardoned Hunter Biden, he had only issued 25 pardons in three, you know, in three plus years as president. That was frankly an appallingly low number. There are 158,000 people in federal prison. It is hard for me to believe they all should be there. The president has the power to let some of their hard luck stories, who frankly are a lot more hard luck stories than Hunter Biden's story, not let them out of prison.

And there are those opportunities in front of him. I mean, the Justice Department, which is not exactly soft on these issues, they've said these people should get out. We'll see whether Biden actually lets him out.

HILL: We will. Jeff Toobin, Judge Nancy Gertner, appreciate it. Thank you both.

[20:39:51]

Just ahead here, Anderson's one-on-one interview with freed Russian prisoner, Paul Whelan, the former Marine who was wrongfully detained in Russia for more than five years on espionage charges was freed over the summer in one of the biggest prisoner swaps since the Cold War. What he says now about the harsh conditions he faced while in Russian captivity. And also why he reached out to CNN from behind bars.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HILL: Tonight, we're getting new insight into what Marine veteran, Paul Whelan, faced during more than five years behind bars in Russia and that insight coming from the ex-prisoner himself. Six years ago this week, Whelan was in Russia for a friend's wedding. That is when he was arrested by the FSB intelligence agency in Russia and then imprisoned on charges of espionage, charges he has always vehemently denied. In May of 2020, the U.S. Department designated him as being wrongfully detained. The following month, he was convicted in a Russian court and sentenced to 16 years in prison, then transferred from Moscow to a remote prison camp.

[20:45:11]

And that's where he led a personal campaign for his freedom, even making several phone calls and writing letters to a CNN reporter. This past August, the U.S. government secured his release in one of the largest prison swaps since the Cold War. And last month, Whelan sat down with Anderson and with CNN's Jennifer Hansler, the State Department reporter whom he reached out to from Russian captivity. Here's that interview.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: Well, first of all, I -- it's -- it's an honor to meet you. I'm -- I'm sorry for what happened. And what -- what is it like being back?

PAUL WHELAN, AMERICAN WRONGFULLY DETAINED IN RUSSIA FOR MORE THAN 5 YEARS: Well, thanks for having me, Anderson. It's an honor for me, too. I've been a fan for years. Being back, it's -- it's surreal. I'm in a world that used to be familiar and it isn't. I'm getting used to just simple things.

COOPER: You were held in a prison in Moscow initially, which is a notorious. It's a high, like, maximum security prison, I think, it's a very notorious prison.

WHELAN: Yes. Lefortovo, it's called the Shooting Gallery because that's where the Russians used to and probably still do shoot their own people. It's a -- it's a horrendously old rundown facility. And, you know, you're in a small cell by yourself basically 23 hours a day. COOPER: How long were you in that facility?

WHELAN: For a year and a half.

COOPER: I cannot imagine. Suddenly, from being in your hotel room visiting your friend for a wedding, to being in this notorious prison, how do you mentally not just panic and freak out?

WHELAN: I probably did panic and freaked out. Very quickly, I -- I realized that what was happening was real. You know, there was some solace in the fact that I knew my -- my ambassadors would be coming to find out what was happening. I wasn't sure how long it would take to resolve. I knew I hadn't done anything. I hadn't violated the Espionage Law. I'm not a spy. I never have been. They'd either made a mistake or they were making it up

COOPER: Once you, after the trial, you were sentenced like 16 years, I think?

WHELAN: Right. Yes.

COOPER: You were sent to a labor camp in Mordovia, and you're still, for the next three, four years, you are woken up every two hours at night.

WHELAN: Yes, I was an escape risk, apparently. Mordovia, there's nothing -- there's nothing out there, it's woods, it's forests, you know.

COOPER: And so what they would come in, wake you up, and what?

WHELAN: They'd shine a light in my eyes and then take a picture with a camera to prove that they had -- they had checked me.

COOPER: Every night, every two hours?

WHELAN: Every two hours.

COOPER: For years.

WHELAN: For four years.

COOPER: Do you -- can you sleep normally now?

WHELAN: Now I'm getting back to a normal sleep pattern. It's difficult.

COOPER: How was it that you started to -- to reach out to -- to other reporters, one of whom is -- is Jennifer Hansler, who -- who's here. What was the thinking on -- on reaching out?

WHELAN: I wanted to make sure that my story was being told, and I wanted to make sure that people weren't forgetting. I didn't want it to be put on the back burner and have other, you know, affairs of state take over people's interest. I'd -- I'd made some phone calls, I'd written a lot of letters, and I wanted to speak to the media. So Jennifer was -- was one of, you know, the early reporters that I spoke to quite clandestinely from prison.

COOPER: How many calls in all Jennifer did?

JENNIFER HANSLER, CNN STATE DEPARTMENT REPORTER: I think it was about a dozen. But the first one was back in June 2021. And it came as a total surprise because I had known Paul's sister, Elizabeth for quite a few months at that point. And she had asked at one point, can I give Paul your address because he enjoys writing letters. And then maybe a month later, he said, act -- actually, can we give him your phone number? And I -- I said, sure, of course. And sort of forgot about it. And then I was sitting at my table in June 2021, and a number just popped up that said Russia. No -- no other caller id. And I sort of thought maybe it was spam, but I picked it up, and then it's someone saying, this is Paul Whelan. And I was so taken aback, Anderson, that I actually sent a clip of it to Elizabeth to say, hey, is this actually your brother's voice? And she confirmed it was.

COOPER: Did you hear that Navalny had -- had been -- had -- had died?

WHELAN: Yes, He -- he was murdered by the FSB in a secure prison. That's what happened to him. There's no question in my mind.

COOPER: And when you heard that, what did you think about for yourself?

WHELAN: I was worried. I was worried that maybe the FSB would poison me or maybe, you know, break a bone or -- or injure me to try to get the U.S. to speed up the negotiations for Krasikov being returned. That's what Russia wanted for me.

COOPER: You -- you follow -- you were aware of negotiations going on. Obviously, you were in contact with a number of people in the U.S. government. I know you talked to Secretary of State Antony Blinken and -- and other high level officials. But there was tremendous disappointment as you believed you were going to be part of prisoner swaps, that then you would suddenly see, you know, Trevor Reid, I think, was the -- the first sort of high profile one. You -- you learned that -- that he had been freed and you were certainly happy for him. But it's got to be incredibly difficult to see the days passing by. I mean, more than 2,000 of them.

[20:50:24]

WHELAN: Yes, there were -- there were peaks and valleys, to be sure. I was glad that Trevor went home when he did. I was glad that Brittney went home when she did. But I was still there. And I was worried because the U.S. had given up their bargaining position when Viktor Bout went home. The U.S. had nothing the Russians wanted. I was stuck there.

COOPER: The -- the U.S. traded this guy, Viktor Bout, who was an -- an arms dealer, a very high profile prisoner. And -- and that was part of the deal for Brittney Griner.

WHELAN: Right. COOPER: There was a phone call that you made to -- to Jennifer after the Brittney Griner release. This is a part of the call that -- that you made to -- to Jennifer.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WHELAN: I have to say I am greatly disappointed that more has not been done to secure my release, especially as the four-year anniversary of my arrest is coming up. I was arrested for a crime that never occurred. I'm happy that Brittney is going home today and that Trevor went home with when he did, but I don't understand why I'm still sitting here.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: Was that the lowest moment for you?

WHELAN: That was one of two. You know, the second was when my dog died. That was a realization that I wasn't going home to the home that I'd left. But when I realized that the U.S. had given up their bargaining position by sending Viktor Bout back to Russia, I was extremely concerned. And yes, it -- it was a low point. And, you know, luckily I had a friend to call and, you know, we discussed it, you know.

COOPER: Jennifer, you would get letters from him?

HANSLER: Yes, so I actually brought the four that I actually received. I don't know if this is all the ones that you sent me, but they would be sent to -- to our bureau in D.C. And then months after the -- the date they were postmarked. So I'm curious, Paul, what you make of seeing these now all these years later.

COOPER: This is your handwriting?

WHELAN: Oh, yes.

COOPER: Very neat.

WHELAN: Yes, thanks. I sent, you know, I sent more than 2,000 letters to my parents. We've got a stack of them at home. I sent letters to the Congresses or to the House and the Senate, the parliaments in Canada and England and Ireland, and they were all the same sort of thing, you know, talking about the restrictions, how the -- the prison was doing things, how I was. Yes, it's interesting to see because there's some of my usual jocularity in these as well as, you know, some serious things. And --

COOPER: How much were you able to kind of remove yourself from your surroundings through writing letters, through reading, through anything else.

WHELAN: You know, staying in touch with the English language, staying in touch with authors that I was familiar with. It was quite important. I had books, English books coming in from the consulates, through my family. I had a lot of mail that came in. When Brittany was released, she had people write hundreds of letters to me. That was extremely important. I mean, at one point, Jennifer and I were just discussing it. I was writing out Ridiculist. Do you remember your Ridiculist? I would write out, you know, the -- the 10 reasons why I wasn't a spy or the 10 reasons why, you know, Putin need to get -- needed to go.

All of these kind of funny things that -- that kind of, you know, sprang to mind. I've still got some of them written down. Yes. But that -- that was an important part of, like, staying sane.

COOPER: What was that flight like? What was, you know, we saw the video of you at the tarmac in, you know, on American soil, being greeted by President Biden, by the -- the vice president as well. What was that like?

WHELAN: You know, that -- that was -- that was incredible. And, you know, we see on the monitor the -- the president putting something on my shirt, and it's actually this.

COOPER: That's the --

WHELAN: The flag. Yes. This is the lapel pin. I didn't realize when we got on the plane, it was a CIA plane flying back, that we were going to meet the President and Vice President. You know, I -- I'd been in solitary confinement for the five days prior. I hadn't had a shower in two weeks. I had clothes on that I'd actually worn when I went to Russia. So --

COOPER: The clothes you're wearing there, are those the clothes you were --

WHELAN: Those are the clothes, yes, yes. So they were dirty. I was dirty. On the plane, I had to clean up as well as I could and, you know.

COOPER: Also look like they don't really fit you anymore.

WHELAN: No, they don't because I'd lost so much weight. Yes. It, you know, I, you know, you -- you saw me walking off very kind of gingerly coming down those stairs, holding on, because I -- I didn't have the strength. I didn't have the balance. The malnutrition had -- had taken a toll. It -- it was interesting to see the President. It was interesting to see the Vice President, but there was a lot of media, too, and I was -- I was glad to see them. Those were the people that had supported me.

[20:55:00]

COOPER: Well, Paul, it's a -- it's really an honor to talk to you. I'm so glad you're home.

WHELAN: Yes. Thanks very much.

COOPER: And Jennifer, thank you. And thanks for all your work.

HANSLER: Yes. Thanks. (END VIDEOTAPE)

HILL: And just one final note, the Kremlin has denied any role in Alexei Navalny's death. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HILL: Before you bring in the New Year, do not miss the CNN Special All The Best, All The Worst 2024. It airs Thursday night at 11:00 Eastern. My good friend, Tom Foreman, along with other CNN anchors and reporters will recap all the big news of the year including politics, of course, but also music and movies and even some of the headlines you just may have forgotten. Here's a preview.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): The world population has grown to about 8 billion people. The U.S. population this year tipped above 337 million. And the most popular baby names are returning champions, Noah and Olivia.

KYUNG LAH, CNN SENIOR INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT: Can you imagine what that second grade classroom is going to be like Olivia? Eight hands go up in the air.

[21:00:04]

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): Most common languages spoken by American homes after English, Spanish, Chinese and --

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN ANCHOR: German? Are the Germans here?

LAH: It's not Korean?

OMAR JIMENEZ, CNN ANCHOR: I honestly, I have no clue.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): Tagalog, a language of the Philippines.

JIMENEZ: I -- I never would have guessed that ever.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: All The Best, All The Worst of 2024 again airs Thursday, 11:00 p.m. Eastern right here on CNN. Thanks for joining. The Source starts now.