Return to Transcripts main page
Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees
Congress Officially Certifies Trump's Election Victory; Elon Musk Feuding With World Leaders; New Orleans Attacker Visited City Twice In Recent Months, Wore Meta Glasses To Record The Scene In Advance; Canada's PM Justin Trudeau Announces Resignation; Trump's Promise On Jan. 6 Pardons Divides Son, Imprisoned Father; Legendary Reporter Lesley Stahl Remembers Former Pres. Carter. Aired 8-9p ET
Aired January 06, 2025 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
RYAN YOUNG, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Erin, the city of New Orleans asked federal officials for extensive support to protect Mardi Gras, celebrations over the next few months. Let's not forget the Super Bowl is scheduled to be played in New Orleans on February 9th -- Erin.
ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: Yes, they're going to have an unprecedented presence during those events. Ryan, thank you very much.
And thanks so much as always to all of you for joining us on this Monday. AC360 begins now.
[20:00:28]
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, "ANDERSON COOPER: 360": Tonight on 360, the difference four years can make and what the next four years might bring as the 2020 loser is certified the 2024 winner and becomes the 47th president two weeks from now.
Also tonight, having spent a quarter billion dollars on the presidential race, the world's richest man now turns his attention and inflammatory allegations toward politics overseas. Kara Swisher who knows Elon Musk well joins us.
And later, Jimmy Carter who is perhaps the most highly praised ex- president ever was like as president. "60 Minutes" Lesley Stahl covered him in the White House and later in his life, joins me tonight.
Thank you for joining us.
It is quiet tonight on Capitol Hill. The snow is only partly responsible, along with beefed up security for the tranquility. The rest is because today, unlike four years ago, but in keeping with every other such occasion, every four years, lawmakers in both parties did their jobs. They certified a presidential election and the one that came up short in it, did not try to short circuit the process, in fact, she oversaw it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) KAMALA HARRIS (D) VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: This announcement of the state of the vote by the president of the Senate shall be deemed a sufficient declaration of the persons elected, president and vice president of the United States, each for a term beginning on the 20th day of January, 2025.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Vice President Harris' announcement ratifying her opponent's victory came after lawmakers took just 30 minutes to certify all 538 electoral votes.
But four years ago, it took just under 15 hours and one attempted insurrection, which one Republican Congressman Mike Collins of Georgia described like so on social media, and I quote, "On this day in history in 2021, thousands of peaceful grandmothers gathered in Washington, DC to take a self-guided albeit unauthorized tour of the US Capitol Building, during this time," he goes on, "Some individuals entered the Capitol, took photos and explored the building before leaving."
Now, his characterization four years later might come as news to more than a hundred police officers and other law enforcement officers injured that day and to the families of the officers who died in the following days, one of multiple strokes and others by suicide.
It might also come as news to Mike Pence who had to be evacuated from the Senate chamber along with members of his family a few short seconds ahead of rioters and was prevented by what Congressman Collins calls thousands of peaceful grandmothers from returning until after 3:00 the morning. That is when he finally managed to say these words.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MIKE PENCE, FORMER VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The votes for the president of the United States are as follows: Joseph R. Biden, Jr. of the state of Delaware has received 306 votes, Donald J. Trump with the state of Florida has received 232 votes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Today on social media, Pence said he welcomed the return of order and civility to the proceedings and said it was "particularly admirable" that Vice President Harris would preside over the certification of the presidential election that she lost.
As for the rioters, President-elect Trump has promised pardons thought it's not specified whether that means all or just some of them. Today one of them, Enrique Tarrio, the former leader of the so-called Proud Boys who is serving 22 years for a seditious conspiracy formally requested one. His lawyer called him, "a young man with an inspiring future ahead of him."
As for the president-elect, he posted this photo on social media today. That is the Ellipse four years ago and the crowd he summoned to Washington with the words "will be wild." Of course, perhaps the biggest difference between then and now this time he won, just two weeks from tomorrow he will become president again.
Here to talk about it, CNN political commentators David Axelrod, Alyssa Farah Griffin, Bakari Sellers, and David Urban.
So David Axelrod, how do you square what we saw at the Capitol today with how the president-elect and his allies are describing what happened four years ago?
DAVID AXELROD, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: How they described what happened four years ago is shear fantasy. We need to say that Donald trump in 2020 told a malignant flagrant lie and sold it to his supporters who came to Washington on the basis of that lie and stormed the Capitol on the erroneous impression that the election was fraudulent. And that has been proven, disproven, and disproven over and over and over and over again and that was an unforgivable sin against our democracy.
Now, he was gotten elected president again and we only have one president at a time. He will be sworn in on January 20th and he will be president. It does not erase the memory of that.
What you saw today, Anderson, is how a functioning democracy works. There is no rule in the Constitution that gives you the right to overrule that process and overrun the Capitol if you don't like the results.
So, history is clear and no re-writing on X is going to change that.
[20:05:26]
COOPER: Alyssa, President-elect Trump was complaining to Hugh Hewitt today about President Biden -- how his team is handling the transition. I just want to play this.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP (R) PRESIDENT-ELECT OF THE UNITED STATES: They will do everything they can to make it as difficult as possible. You know, they talk about a transition. They always say, oh, no, we want a smooth transition from party to party, you know, of government. They are making it really difficult. They are throwing everything they can in the way.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
COOPER: Does it make sense to you? Obviously, I mean, he is still talking about legal cases, calling President Biden dumb as a rock, does it work for him to do this?
ALYSSA FARAH GRIFFIN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: It works maybe with his base. That is not what the 75 million voters who voted for him and elected him want him to be focusing on. Just as a factual matter, Donald Trump made it difficult for the Biden transition to come in to the extent where the incoming chief-of-staff could not get basic details in the West Wing, basic access until the days before he was going to be coming into office because Donald Trump was selling this myth and actually trying to execute this myth that he was going to stay in office.
Listen, Donald Trump won because people care about the cost of living and the border. The more he is talking about prosecuting people or whatever his rantings on X and Truth are, it is a distraction from what people wanted from him. He would be wise to listen to the vast majority of the country not the small 30 percent of the Republican Party base that is going to be with him no matter what he does.
COOPER: Bakari, how do Democrats not become background noise?
, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well I think Democrats have to learn their lesson first which is that January 6th is an important day as David stressed. It's a day that is etched in our country's history.
The problem and what Democrats have to realize is that it does not move voters any more. Voters have a short memory. What move voters is what Alyssa talked about. The fact that you have to be talking about lowering grocery prices, you have to talk about the cost of living, you have to talk about the things that every average American is talking about at their kitchen table and we lost focus of that.
January 6th is a day if I were to sit here and tell Alyssa or anyone else that I want to go out and injure 140 police officers, I want to make sure the president of the United States is down at the Mall threatening democracy and then if Kamala Harris does not certify the elections, I want her hung.
That would actually chill the backbone of people that heard me say that. That is what we went through. That is a day in our history, but going forward, Democrats have to be about the party of tomorrow.
Donald Trump is a very little man as we just saw in his talking to Hugh Hewitt about how difficult it is. He is going to air those grievances, that is fine, but Democrats have to find a backbone and be a party about tomorrow, not necessarily about January 6th.
COOPER: David Urban, once the president-elect is sworn in, he will obviously control the White House, both Houses of Congress. We will have a conservative super majority in the Supreme Court. Do you think he will go -- who does he go after if things do not go his way?
DAVID URBAN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I hope nobody, Anderson. I hope things go his way.
Listen, I love hearing what Bakari is saying and others. I think it is incumbent upon Democrats to offer an alternative vision, perhaps cooperate on areas they can agree with this president, right?
Americans want to see America succeed. I think the bulk of Democrats want to see America to succeed, who might not have voted for Trump, but they want to see our country succeed and move forward. I think to the extent that there is a common ground that could be reached. I think, Speaker Johnson is going to work with Hakeem Jeffries to the extent possible. They are going to need Democratic votes in the House on certain measures to get bills passed.
You're talking about whether there is going to be one or two big Reconciliation Bills. Democrats are going to be part of that, they are going to be part of it in the House, as well as the Senate. So, I think it behooves Democrats to cooperate where they can, to present alternative ideas if they have them.
If they want to move forward and get back in the fray here, that is what they need to do. Bakari is exactly correct.
COOPER: David Axelrod, how do you see the first hundred days going in terms of what Democrats do, how Trump interacts with them?
AXELROD: Listen, I want to echo what Dave Urban said. I do believe that you are elected not to advance the interest of your party but advance the interest of your country. I was, you know, appalled in 2009 when Barack Obama took office on that very day, Rush Limbaugh told the nation that he was rooting for Obama to fail.
Donald Trump has said, he is going to lower people's prices and very quickly, you know, he said he's going to take care of the border, he is going to reduce crime, he is going to end the war, he is going to do a lot of things.
If he does all of those things, God bless him, good for him and good for the country. If there are places where Democrats and Republicans can cooperate, that is positive.
[20:10:11]
The fact is, he has not evidenced in the past a particular desire to want to work with Democrats. If you read his social media feeds, that is pretty clear even to this day. It would behoove him just as it behooves Democrats to say, I have got bigger things to do than air my grievances and go after my enemies. I want to work with people where I can. Let's see if he does that.
COOPER: Alyssa, just in terms of his -- the people he wants to have in his Cabinet, the people he wants head of the Department of Justice, the FBI, well, not the Department of Justice -- FBI, Department of Defense, do you think he will get them all?
GRIFFIN: I don't think he will get them all. I think he'll get the majority of them. I think he should. Incoming presidents do have the right to fill their Cabinet.
The Republican Senate takes their advice and consent role actually quite seriously. Right now, background checks are going on, investigations. There will be confirmation hearings and with a few of his picks, there are real questions around qualifications. Pete Hegseth, he served our country, he's worked on veteran's issues but there are character issues and then there's just the actual credentials and ability to run the biggest organization in the US military. That is one I would key my eyes on.
I think Kash Patel -- I worked with Kash Patel, I actually liked him when I was in the administration, I'm not sure he is a fan of mine now, but this is a person who said some really wacky stuff, but he's also somebody who actually is reasonably qualified for the job.
He worked in Congress, he worked at Department of Justice and more junior roles before. If he shows up and says, we're not going -- we are not going to start prosecuting Liz Cheney, we're going to focus on trans-national criminal organizations, we're going to go after human traffickers, there is a world in which he convinces people to be with him and says, do not listen to those more wild out there conspiracy theories, this is going to be my focus.
COOPER: Bakari -- oh, David Urban got --
URBAN: Listen, I just don't know that Kash Patel wants Alyssa's endorsement. I'm not sure it helps him.
COOPER: I want to play something that president-elect said to Hugh Hewitt today.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
TRUMP: In my first term, people were fighting me. All the way, they were just fighting me. In this term it is so different. I think, I don't want to say people have given up because that is not nice. But, they recognize that we really do have that mandate.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
COOPER: Do you think it is true?
SELLERS: No, I mean he is delusional. And the fact that people around him continuously say that there was a mandate. First let's address that, this was the closest popular vote that we've had since Bush v Gore, right, and it was one of the closest one we've had in American history.
In terms of the electoral college, there were 200,000 votes difference along the blue wall, along Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, Michigan, 200,000 votes of a difference. And so, that's pretty close.
If you look at the House, that is insanely close. How many votes, three? Four? That depends how many put into one of the Cabinet positions, there is a three-four vote difference. So it's not a mandate by any stretch.
I do believe, Democrats are tired right now. We are weary right now. We just went through this battle and sometimes when you go through this battle and running a race when you don't win, particularly to someone like Donald Trump it takes the life out of you. But to say Democrats will not be there to fight, of course, to David's point, well, there are ways to work with Donald Trump and the administration, they will work with him. But there is still going to be a fight, because there is a question about who represents the values of the country and where we want to go and the country we want our children to be raised in.
COOPER: Double David, thank you.
URBAN: Hey, Anderson --
COOPER: Go ahead, David, quick.
URBAN: I was going to say, listen, I know Bakari wants to put an asterisk there, that's fine, he's entitled to it after the W. What I think is going to be different in this administration, at least the kickoff is that on the day of inauguration there won't be an article running in "The Washington Post" calling for Donald Trump's impeachment.
The first two years of his administration won't be marred by a fake Russia investigation where the entire administration is subjected to subpoenas and largely was a witch hunt now we look back in retrospect it that kept him from accomplishing a lot of things.
He's getting the start with a clean slate and to David Axelrod's point, there are a lot of things the American people want to see done -- the Border secured, prices come down, crisis around the world solved, and so the plate is going to be full and I think as Americans we should hope for his success early, quickly and thoroughly.
SELLERS: I am praying for his success, David, I'm praying for it.
COOPER: David Axelrod, David Urban, thank you. Alyssa Farah Griffin, Bakari Sellers as well.
URBAN: Thank you, Bakari, I love you.
COOPER: Coming up next, Elon Musk soon to be part of the US government, sort of, now, weighing in, against Britain's government. Journalist, Kara Swisher joins us to talk about what the world's richest man is up to.
Also, Canada's prime minister is stepping down. Why the luster faded from the heir to a Canadian political dynasty and what happens next, ahead on 360.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:18:40]
COOPER: Elon Musk today asked his 211 million online followers, where the United States should overthrow the government of one of this county's oldest closest allies. Here is the proposition he posted on his social network. Yes or no, reads "America should liberate the people of Britain from their tyrannical government." For days now, he's been drudging up a decade-old scandal over years of child sex abuse by gangs of men in a town in the north of England.
In a 2014 report, it was found that about 1,400 kids had been abused by gangs of men in Northern English town of Rotherham beginning in 1997, lasting more than a decade.
Today, Keir Starmer the British Prime Minister responded by suggesting Musk was "spreading lies and misinformation." Britain's leader of the liberal Democratic Party said the American ambassador should be summoned to explain in his words why an incoming US official is suggesting the UK government should be overthrown.
Joining me now, a CNN contributor, Kara Swisher who has covered and interviewing Musk for years, also hosts the podcast "On Pivot" and author most recently of the great book "Burn Book: A Tech Love Story."
What is Elon Musk doing here?
KARA SWISHER, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: I guess he's being Patrick Henry of Britain. I don't know, I am not sure what is happening. He is making trouble anywhere and he is emboldened by his success here in United States. His fortune doubled, which is incredible.
COOPER: The investment he made, which a lot of people, were like oh, my God, 250 million is a lot of money.
SWISHER: Two hundred fifty million.
COOPER: Obviously --
SWISHER: It's not.
COOPER: He has -- that's the greatest investment he has made.
SWISHER: Doubled, that's a 10-X or 10-bagger they call it. He made $250 billion from that. His wealth doubled and he's now --
[20:20:07]
COOPER: His stocks going like the --
SWISHER: Tesla and some others, even though the results at Tesla were not so good recently.
COOPER: But people, I guess, investors believe he is so now linked to the Trump --
SWISHER: That's correct.
COOPER: -- he is going to be getting government contracts.
SWISHER: Presumably.
COOPER: Sponsorship for space. SWISHER: Yes, I think the idea is this is not a fraction of Tesla's business, it's a fraction of Elon Musk's business. And so, he's taking his show on the road. That's really what he's doing and so he's meddling and putting out misinformation and doing all kinds of things that he's done here and seeing if the tricks work elsewhere and they often do actually.
COOPER: There were certainly some Democrats who were hoping that, you know, the president-elect will tire of him and that relationship will sour. What do you --
SWISHER: There are Republicans hoping that, too, by the way. I interviewed Maggie Haberman who has covered him, he is living in a cottage there at Mar-a-Lago. I think it's the Banyan Cottage or something like that.
And I think a lot of people feel like it might change once he gets to the White House when it is harder to get in. A question if he has an office in the West Wing, whether he has an executive office building or whether he gets these famous passes, I think the green or the blue pass that you get on the campus pretty easily, the White House campus.
And so, the question is, how does he thrive within a White House Trump administration? And I do know. I have been called by a lot of Trump officials -- they essentially say, well, you are right about Musk. And I am like yes and they were like, what do we do? And I say, good luck. Good luck controlling him.
COOPER: There has got to be a lot of -- I don't know what the emotions are of the other tech billionaires must be, I mean Jeff Bezos, you know.
SWISHER: Well, you see what they are doing.
COOPER: Well, they all, obviously, gone down to Mar-a-Lago.
SWISHER: Yes, I call it feats of servitude, like they've got not just that, not just going to Mar-a-Lago but, you know, Amazon just decided to do a very positive documentary today.
COOPER: Documentary, Brett Ratner is involved.
SWISHER: Yes, which is an interesting choice. And then today Mark Zuckerberg put Dana White on the board of Meta. I know he is an MMA fan, so that may be that, but he is a close Trump supporter. I think they are all doing various incendiary things they can do to kiss up to Trump.
COOPER: I mean Jeff Bezos, you know, Blue Origin, his space company is something that he cares a lot about. That was his post Amazon plan. I know he is doing a lot with Amazon on AI.
SWISHER: Yes.
COOPER: But obviously, with Elon Musk, they are competitors in this.
SWISHER: Absolutely.
COOPER: And so, that has got to be a big blow to that business.
SWISHER: Well, he wants to be part of it. People don't realize this, when Jeff, I think he was a valedictorian of his high school. His speech was on space. He loves space. So, he wants to be doing this and Elon is directly in his way and will advantage.
Anything that Elon wants to do, he will probably be first in line and so a lot of these other moguls are like, how do I get a piece? How do I get a piece of this? How do I get that that? TikTok, what's going to happen to TikTok? And things like that.
Trump will have a lot of sway over that. Therefore, they all want to get in there, and in order to do that you have to pay essentially big over this.
COOPER: You said something words to the effect like Musk toxic noise is the point, with Musk toxic noise is his point.
SWISHER: Yes, it is.
COOPER: That is his brand now?
SWISHER: No, it's just he creates all kinds of -- you know it's sort of the flood the zone thing that Steve Bannon kind of perfected. You flood the zone with misinformation and if there is a little bit of real information in there or discontent, people in Britain are worried about this topic and then make it a mess.
And then you say something so outrageous, that people then respond and then you are on your agenda and not vice versa. So, today, all of the European leaders obviously coordinating, it felt like a coordinated effort were trying to push back on him, but now, he is the story, which is how Elon Musk likes it. He is an attention finder.
COOPER: Is there a business reason to get involved in British politics or politics in Europe?
SWISHER: It is about control. If he can have control to get rid of regulation, I think that is part of the thing. And I think he just likes it now. This is what amuses him. He is obviously not paying attention to Tesla that they have better models.
COOPER: Is he running -- I mean, how can he be running these companies?
SWISHER: He is not.
COOPER: He is not.
SWISHER: There is a very good executive at SpaceX. There's executives at Tesla and by the way Tesla is falling behind BYD and other things in terms of innovation and new products and that's why its sales are off for the first time, its global sales are down.
So, he's not paying attention to other companies. AI is a big interest of his obviously, and he is doing that by suing OpenAI.
COOPER: Right, is he trying to destroy OpenAI?
SWISHER: Yes, because he created it and they moved on without him and he will not -- Elon Musk will not put up with that.
COOPER: Yes, you've done fascinating interviews with Sam Altman.
SWISHER: Yes, he's a fascinating person.
COOPER: Yes, he is.
SWISHER: I think OpenAI is way ahead and that's the problem. Anything to slow competitors down. I mean everyone thinks of Elon as an entrepreneur and he is in a way but he's a better business person than anything else.
He did not create Tesla for example or some of the other things. He just is a good business person. Like, sort of a, Henry Ford character.
And I think, what is interesting about it is he uses lawsuits, he uses noise, he uses attacks, personal attacks, he uses his now Twitter, he uses that or X whatever you want to call it. He uses all of these tools to do these things.
They are often the same, they're all to create noise and attention on him, because really, the stock reflects Elon Musk all of the time.
[20:25:11]
COOPER: He's got a lot of levers to pull now more than ever.
SWISHER: He does now. Absolutely.
COOPER: Kara, thank you so much, appreciate it. Always great to talk to you.
Up next, Justin Trudeau's departure as Canada's prime minister.
Also, President Biden and First Lady Jill Biden are in New Orleans where he just spoke at a service remembering the 14 people murdered in a terrorist attack on New Year's Day. We're going to have those comments plus more on the ongoing investigation.
And later more on the unease surrounding possible January 6th pardons. Donie O'Sullivan speaking with a son who now fears for his life after helping put his father in prison.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: President Biden is in New Orleans right now. He and the First Lady laid a wreath on Bourbon Street shortly after they arrived to remember the 14 people killed and at least 35 injured five days ago when a terrorist rammed his truck into a crowd celebrating the New Year and also shot people. The visit comes the same day the city kicks off another popular attraction, Carnival Season promoting their fresh concerns about the security.
About a half hour ago, President Biden spoke at an interfaith prayer service invoking his own experience with grief and loss.
[20:30:12]
(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)
JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The families left behind. You know, from some experience, it's hard. But I promise you, the day will come when the memory of your loved one, you pass that park, open that closet door, smell that fragrance just remember that laugh. When the memory of your loved one will bring a smile to your lips before a tear to your eye.
(END VIDEOCLIP)
COOPER: The President's visit comes a day after the FBI released new videos of the attacker. The FBI says this video is from sometime around late October. One of two visits investigators say he made in the months prior to the attack.
It shows him bicycling through the French Quarter and filming what he sees with a pair of Meta smart glasses. The FBI also released videos that show him placing two different coolers that each contained an improvised explosive device or IED a block apart on Bourbon Street hours prior to the attack. Neither were detonated.
I'm joined now by former FBI Deputy Director Andrew McCabe. We're surprised to learn these new details particularly that he visited New Orleans twice and used these Meta smart glasses to videotape things I guess without being noticed.
ANDREW MCCABE, CNN SENIOR LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Yes, absolutely. We got a lot of information out of that press conference yesterday. The details about his prior trips to New Orleans in the months preceding the attack with the additional detail of his reservation of the vehicle that he wanted to use for the attack six weeks before it occurred really opened up a different side of this attacker.
It really shows him to be much more deeply engaged in a long-term operational planning cycle. Initially the reports that he had driven to New Orleans essentially the evening before the attack seemed to make it seem like a -- you know, a matter of haste or an emotional response to something, but that is not the case here.
This guy really planned this thing out with -- in a -- you know in a meticulous and highly organized way. And I should say he employed some techniques here that seem to go beyond his experience in the military.
The composition of the IEDs, planning the bombs, these are probably things that he did not learn in his military training because of the sorts of assignments he had were more administrative. So really makes him look much more serious than we initially thought.
COOPER: Well, John Miller had also reported a couple days ago about this unique compound that was apparently used in the IEDs which is not something that's been used or seen in the U.S. before.
MCCABE: Yes. I think for me, Anderson, all these small details that seem anomalous with his background and experience all start to point in the direction of assistance or aid. Now, there's no proof of this yet. We don't have any solid evidence that he was actually working with people in ISIS or some other terrorist group.
But his foreign travel certainly opens up the possibility that the purpose of that travel was to meet with terrorists or supporters of terrorist causes who could help him plan this attack. And now when you have details like the explosive compound, again these are sophisticated steps for a guy who probably had very little explosives, if any, explosives experience before this attack.
And if he was actually planning with ISIS members or ISIS supporters overseas, this is a very concerning development. But it also presents an elegant and effective lead for investigators to follow, to open up visibility on a pipeline of potentially other operatives.
COOPER: Well, it's also interesting -- I want to show again this new video of this attacker placing coolers with IEDs inside of them on Bourbon Street which officials say he planned to detonate but had the wrong device to do so. It was reported days ago that he had a transmitter in his vehicle.
How unusual is -- I mean it's -- first of all, it's unusual that he would go to the location first, plant these devices and then I guess go and retrieve his vehicle and make this attack. How unusual is it for a pre-plan like this to have one individual setting off, you know, setting up these things in advance and then botching a detonation like that?
MCCABE: You know, you go to war with the Army you have, right? And so, if you're an ISIS recruiter and you see this Jabbar as an opportunity to take someone with a clean passport who lives in the United States to get him trained up and back in there to execute this attack, that's the guy you go with.
It'd be better to have several operatives but they may have only had one. As far as his failures with the detonation of the devices, that's not atypical at all.
[20:35:05]
Homemade devices are typically unreliable and particularly when they're made by first-time explosive builders. If this was his first time constructing devices, it's possible that he had trouble kind of putting them together in a reliable and effective way.
We've seen that in many, many cases. In fact, Najibullah Zazi who's -- who attended to blow up New York City subway trains was discovered because he made email communications back to his bomb trainer in Pakistan when he couldn't figure out how to get the mixture correct in his devices. So very common among first-time operatives.
COOPER: All right, Andrew McCabe, appreciate it.
Coming up, more on the possibility of presidential pardons for January 6th rioters. Well, the story of a father sentenced to more than seven years in prison for his crimes versus the son who helped put him there and hopes he stays in prison. Donie O'Sullivan joins us with that story.
And later, the legacy of former President Carter who will lie in state tomorrow in the Capitol Rotunda. Joining me legendary journalist, my 60 Minutes colleague Lesley Stahl who covered his administration later interviewed the former president over the year.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:40:18]
COOPER: After nine years on the job and in the headlines, Canada's Prime Minister Justin Trudeau headed for the exit saying today he's leaving office and stepping down as leader of Canada's Liberal Party once a new leader is chosen.
More tonight from Randi Kaye who joins us. So what led to his resignation?
RANDI KAYE, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Anderson, Justin Trudeau had really built this progressive brand. He built himself as a feminist and environmentalist. And then after Donald Trump took office in 2017, Trudeau's really -- he really attempted to differentiate himself from Donald Trump.
And when President Trump ordered that temporary ban on -- the Muslim ban as he called it on those -- the Muslim countries, Trudeau went to the airport and pretty much defied him and welcomed the Syrian refugees to Canada. Not all Canadians were very happy about the refugees.
And then in 2017, his star really started to fade because of that. And then he pushed for these very restrictive measures during the pandemic. People in Canada were not happy about that. There were protests all across Canada about that that really paralyzed the country.
And now Trump has repeatedly suggested as you know that Canada become this 51st U.S. state. So that's been an issue for Trudeau. He's also been getting hit at home on the economy as well and how he's been handling that.
And then over Christmas, Trump has really been trolling him. He said that Wayne Gretzky, the hockey great, should actually run for prime minister in Canada. He actually is now calling Justin Trudeau the governor because he's considering it a 51st state.
And then finally, Anderson, Trump's billionaire buddy, Elon Musk, really unleashed his own assault on Trudeau online writing this about him on X that he's such an insufferable tool. He won't be in power much longer.
So, all of that Anderson, combined has been a real issue for Justin Trudeau at home.
COOPER: Can you just remind people of his background because his sense of the prime minister job in 2015 it was a huge story.
KATE: Yes, I mean, he was born on Christmas and he comes from a family of politics. His father was actually the prime minister of Canada for four terms. He worked as a high school teacher before joining parliament. He was elected to parliament in 2008 at the age of 36.
And then eventually, he got a real jolt of popularity in 2012 and was voted into his role as prime minister in 2015.
COOPER: All right, Randi Kaye. Randy, thanks very much.
Back to our top story tonight, January 6th then versus now. The former so-called Proud Boys leader we mentioned hoping for a pardon is not alone. More than 1,500 people were charged with crimes connected to January 6th.
The resident-elect told Time magazine that the pardons will come in his presidency's first hour but he's been vague about a blanket pardon. Last month he told NBC News, quote, "There may be some exceptions". Now the issue hasn't just split the nation but a family where a son turned in and later testified against his father who for now remains in prison.
Donie O'Sullivan has that story.
(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)
DONIE O'SULLIVAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: If Trump pardons your dad, what's your biggest fear?
JACKSON REFFITT, SON OF JANUARY 6 CONVICT: You know just getting shot in the street. I don't know.
O'SULLIVAN: By your father?
J. REFFITT: By my father by someone he knows. There's a bunch of people that I don't know and I don't know their intent, so. You want to help me with this?
O'SULLIVAN: Sure.
O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): This is Jackson Reffitt.
O'SULLIVAN: Do you want me to take this end here or how do we do this?
J. REFFITT: Yes, please.
O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): He says he's moving out of his rental home and into hiding for his own safety.
J. REFFITT: Bought a gun because I got so paranoid and moving out because I'm scared.
O'SULLIVAN: Do you know how to fire a gun?
J. REFFITT: Yes. I've been shooting it.
O'SULLIVAN: Do you have it on you right now?
J. REFFITT: Yes, I have to wear it around the house kind of often just to get used to how it feels.
O'SULLIVAN: OK.
O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): Jackson's dad is Guy Reffitt who is a member of the Texas Three Percenter Militia.
GUY REFFITT, PROUD BOYS LEADER: And I just kept going, go forward, go forward. I couldn't even see, bro.
O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): He's serving a more than seven-year sentence for his role in the January 6th Capitol attack. Reffitt was convicted of five felonies including carrying a firearm on Capitol grounds.
O'SULLIVAN: So you reported your dad to the FBI?
J. REFFITT: Yes.
O'SULLIVAN: That's what got him arrested basically?
J. REFFITT: More or less, yes.
O'SULLIVAN: What effect has that had on your family?
J. REFFITT: It's destroyed it.
O'SULLIVAN: Was there a moment where you thought, I know my dad's done all this stuff but I don't want to report him?
J. REFFITT: Yes. I still feel horrible, of course, like I can't get over it but I don't regret it.
O'SULLIVAN: When was the last time you spoke to your dad?
J. REFFITT: Five months ago. It was the first time I talked to him. And it was just a crying fest for the first 10 minutes and that was great. And then I brought up the fact that I'm worried about him getting out. And he was almost puzzled, you know, like he was confused as to why I thought that.
O'SULLIVAN: Are you overreacting?
J. REFFITT: No. I get death threats daily, hourly at this point.
NICOLE REFFITT, JACKSON REFFITT'S MOTHER: Unbeknownst to us, it was our 18-year-old son who turned his dad into the FBI.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why? UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why did he do it?
N. REFFITT: My son is a declared democratic socialist.
[20:45:10]
O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): Jackson's mom Nicole has become one of the most prominent people campaigning for the release of people serving time for January 6th.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: -- you lift up each and every one of Jan. 6 --
N. REFFITT: Christopher Alberts?
O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): Nicole left Texas and moved to Washington, D.C. where she takes part in a nightly vigil held here outside the city's jail.
O'SULLIVAN: You've been coming here for hundreds of nights?
N. REFFITT: Almost 900.
O'SULLIVAN: Why?
N. REFFITT: You know after I saw what happened to my husband, I could not sit on my hands at home anymore.
O'SULLIVAN: Do you wish Guy didn't come here on January 6th?
N. REFFITT: No, I'm glad he stood up for something.
O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): Every night January 6th prisoners from around the country call into the vigil --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Continue holding a line that brings almost done.
O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): -- including Guy Reffitt who recently called in to wish Nicole a happy birthday.
G. REFFITT: Happy birthday. Sorry, I couldn't get you something better than 80 months. But you know, they're (INAUDIBLE).
O'SULLIVAN: Are you confident that Trump will let your husband walk free?
N. REFFITT: I feel like Trump is the man of his word.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What's the next step for your family?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: To continue to fight together.
O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): Nicole is sometimes joined in DC. .by her two daughters, Jackson's sisters, who've been caught in the middle of a divided family. SARAH REFFITT, JACKSON REFFITT'S SISTER: -- that is not showing my father.
PEYTON REFFITT, JACKSON REFFITT'S SISTER: We have nothing against Jackson. Jackson's my brother. I love him. I love him no more than I love my father. I love my father. I love my family.
N. REFFITT: From the beginning, the girls and I have received hundreds of mailed death threats. I'm not talking about online things, I'm talking about rape to my daughters, death to my husband, death to me.
O'SULLIVAN: You don't think Jackson has to be afraid of his dad?
N. REFFITT: No.
O'SULLIVAN: Yes.
N. REFFITT: I think that's been put on the record several times.
O'SULLIVAN: So why is Jackson still afraid?
N. REFFITT: I just think that it's the same thing where people think this red hat on my head is scary and dangerous. It's that same mentality. Jackson comes from a lot of love and there's a lot of love left to be given.
And justice for all.
J. REFFITT: I mean, I love my mom, of course. I love her.
O'SULLIVAN: Do you love your dad?
J. REFFITT: Of course I love my dad. I love my dad, but I can't I can't feel safe around him. I hate having to put myself in this situation to feel some sort of comfort after the election and what's going to happen when my dad gets pardoned.
When all these hundreds of people get pardoned and all these thousands of people get validated for their actions, and I'm one of those people that they call a traitor. My dad once said traitors get shot. So that's been ringing in my head for years and years and years.
O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): In a message from prison, Guy Reffitt said that "Jackson has never had anything to worry about from me. And he will never have anything to worry about from me ever".
O'SULLIVAN: If your dad's watching this, what's your message to him?
J. REFFITT: That I love him and that I hope he gets better. And I hope I get better too. I hope I grow out of this paranoia right now. And that I really thought what I did was right. I thought I did what I did to protect him and my family and the people around him and the people he could have hurt.
(END VIDEO TAPE) COOPER: Donie joins us now from outside a Washington, D.C. detention center where convicted rioters are being held. What's going on there tonight, Donie?
O'SULLIVAN (on-camera): Hey, Anderson, yes, look, these demonstrators behind me here, they've been gathering here for almost 900 nights. A lot of them are relatives, have family members who are serving either in the D.C. jail here or in prisons across the country.
What's been happening is, as you saw in that piece, some prisoners are calling in. There is just a couple of counter demonstrators across the street here, but a very large police presence here. And look, I think this just really underlines, Anderson.
You know, these are some of the reddest of the red MAGA folks and they are really expecting President-elect Trump to pardon everybody from the Proud Boys on down. And, you know, you can see here the dedication they have.
Many of course will say that, you know, they are misled in their efforts, misguided but they are not going to stop making noise until President -- then-President Trump pardons everybody. Anderson?
COOPER: Yes. Donie, incredible story. Incredible to see that family divided like that. Thank you very much, Donie O'Sullivan.
Remembering former President Jimmy Carter next with CBS News' Lesley Stahl. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:54:04]
COOPER: Right now, Georgia is saying goodbye to the 39th president of the United States, its native son and former governor Jimmy Carter. His body will lie in repose at Carter Center, and his presidential library in Atlanta until tomorrow morning.
Then an Air Force plane will carry the casket to Washington where he'll lie in state at the Capitol Rotunda where Americans can pay their respects until his state funeral on Thursday. Jimmy Carter died last week in his hometown of Plains, Georgia at the age of 100. He'll be laid to rest there next to his wife of 77 years, Rosalynn, who died last year.
Joining us tonight, my 60 Minutes colleague Lesley Stahl who covered President Carter for CBS during his one term in the White House. Years later, she interviewed him a number of times including in 2010 for 60 Minutes where she asked him about one of his perceived shortcomings.
(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)
LESLEY STAHL, "60 MINUTES" CORRESPONDENT: They told you that you had an image of weakness. You're right that they told you this.
JIMMY CARTER, 39TH U.S. PRESIDENT: True. And a dead. STAHL: A lack of esteem in the public eye and they just beat up on you.
CARTER: I think they were telling me that the public image of me was that I was not a strong leader, that I should not only arouse support from affection but also from fear.
[20:55:11]
STAHL: So did you change? Did you start to operate from fear?
CARTER: Maybe a little bit more than I would have.
(END VIDEOCLIP)
COOPER: It's so fascinating, Lesley. The -- I think people forget he tried to get the White House to stop playing Hail to the Chief when he entered a room. He did a lot of things which the American public wasn't used to. He actually reversed himself on the Hail to the Chief. What was he like to cover?
STAHL: Well, first of all, he reversed himself because the public wanted him to be ceremonial. They liked the trappings of the idea of presidential power. He felt that after Nixon it was time to dial back on the imperial presidency.
The public didn't like that. So that's why he had to give up all these things that he was trying to do to reduce the sort of imagery. He didn't like the gimmickry.
COOPER: He also didn't like the politicking, the deal-making. He -- in an interview with you and these recordings he had made, which you did for 60 Minutes, I mean, he was calling Congress people who wanted, you know, OK, I'll support you in this if you hire this person for this position. He found that like hostage-taking, I think you refer to it as.
STAHL: Yes. He also felt it was sinful, you know. He was a very religious man and he felt that there was something smarmy about making deals. When I saw Spielberg's movie on Lincoln and I realized how much of that had gone on in his presidency, I realized that there were things that make a president successful that Jimmy Carter just didn't want to do, didn't respect.
COOPER: How was he?
STAHL: And it hurt him. It hurt his image.
COOPER: He wasn't a part of the Washington establishment. He wasn't even part of the Democratic establishment initially in Georgia when he ran for governor. He ran once, lost, and then the second time he got it. Was that part of the problem? Because my understanding is like official Washington just rejected him and everybody around him.
STAHL: You know, he rejected official Washington.
COOPER: I'm not sure to that.
STAHL: I mean, it really -- I think it started with him.
COOPER: He made notes, recordings, like journals, that he would actually record them while he was in office, later publish them. You interviewed him for that. I mean, they were brutally honest.
STAHL: Well, the little clip you ran, that was his Cabinet. He invited them to criticize him. He said, come on, beat up on me, and they did. They told him that he had an image of weakness, that he was not perceived as being strong and that he needed to toughen up to become a more successful president.
You know, we say that he was not successful. And yet today, as we have a revisionism on Jimmy Carter coming forth, we realize how much he really did get done. And when you see the list, it's astonishing.
COOPER: His domestic policy adviser was on recently, or I was talking to him. One of the things he was pointing out is a lot of the deregulation, which we associate with Republicans, the Ronald Reagan champion. Jimmy Carter actually started deregulating the airlines, enabling more people to be able to serve democratizing air travel in America, the cable industry, interstate trucking as well.
STAHL: Yes. Oh, well, he -- and he was famous for it at the time, even though later Ronald Reagan got all the credit for deregulating. Someone said that Jimmy Carter was the first Republican president because he did that and so many other things.
I mean, Camp David, he shepherded if he hadn't put his elbow grease into it. He was the one who got Israel and Egypt to sign a peace treaty that's still in existence today.
COOPER: Yes.
STAHL: He -- you know, he started FEMA. The list goes on and on what he did. He had energy policy that was successful.
COOPER: He had the longest post presidency, 43 years. When he left office, did you anticipate -- did you ever anticipate kind of the post-presidency that he would have?
STAHL: No, nobody did. I don't even think he did.
COOPER: Because that's really come to define him in so many people's eyes, I think.
STAHL: Yes. But what we're seeing now in his death is that he was far more successful in what he got done as president than we thought at the time that his reputation was not only at the time, but maybe throughout his life until now, as we look back and see the list that is quite astonishing.
Because it's amazing that he had this sense of weakness. He had those hostages in Iran for over a quarter of his presidency.
COOPER: Yes.
STAHL: And yet he got all these things done.
COOPER: And his relationship with Rosalynn Carter in 77 years, it's just remarkable.
STAHL: It was a really happy marriage.
COOPER: The thing I still can't believe, which I learned talking to somebody from his hometown the day he died, that his mom actually Rosalynn. And so he actually saw Rosalynn when he was three years old. He came over the house, looked over the bassinet at the newborn Rosalynn Carter.
STAHL: His mother delivered Rosalynn Carter.
COOPER: The wife, yes.
STAHL: I don't think I ever knew that.
COOPER: Yes, it's incredible. Lesley Stahl, it's such a pleasure to have you here. It's really an honor. Thank you.
STAHL: It's so nice to work with you --
COOPER: I know.
STAHL: -- in person.
COOPER: I know, we cross in the hall all the time. Thanks for your time. I appreciate it.
STAHL: Pleasure.
COOPER: The news continues. The Source of Kaitlan Collins starts now.
