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Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees
Fast Moving Fire Explodes In LA Area, Forcing Evacuations; Rewriting January Sixth; The Leaders Of The Proud Boys And The Oath Keepers Were Freed; Musk Bashes Trump's $500 Million AI Project; About 31,000 Under Evacuation Orders After Fast-moving New Wildfire Breaks Out in L.A., Ventura Counties. Aired 8-9p ET
Aired January 22, 2025 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[20:00:00]
FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: But he has said he wants a fast end to the Ukraine war, although he now says it might take six months. And while Russian leader Vladimir Putin continues to insist he's open to talks about a possible peace agreement, he says that will only happen on Moscow's terms and if the US makes the first move.
Fred Pleitgen, CNN, Berlin.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: Thanks to Fred and thanks to all of you, AC360 starts now.
[20:00:32]
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, "ANDERSON COOPER: 360": Tonight on 360, breaking news on both coasts, a massive new wildfire in Southern California. And the rewriting of January 6th reaches a new peak as a ringleader returns to the scene of the crime and the Trump administration weighs welcoming convicts to the White House.
First, the fire now burning out of control across more than 8,000 acres in northern LA County. CNN's Veronica Miracle is there for us. What are you seeing, Veronica?
VERONICA MIRACLE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Anderson, we're in an area that just burned not too long ago. As you can see, some of the area around us is still on fire. And just up the road here, there are utility crews working because multiple power poles have been burned and they've snapped at half.
The power lines are down on the road. They are working very quickly to try and repair that. And we've also seen a very huge rotation of helicopters coming into this lake next to us, dipping down, grabbing water and going over the hillside.
That has been great to see first, because the winds are not so strong now. And so that means that the choppers can fly, the aircraft can fly, and then you can see one coming over the ridge right here. This guy is going to be coming right over us. And he'll be landing in the water to grab more water. He'll take it over the hillside in an area that is hard to access.
Firefighters need to be able to attack it by the air because it's hard to access on the ground. There goes just overhead.
In this area, there have been about 19,000 people under mandatory evacuations, even more who are being warned that they need to be ready to go. But an interesting little note here. I was speaking with one of the evacuees who told me that his insurance company actually called preemptively and said, hey, I see the fires burning near you, save all of your receipts. Let us know if there's anything you need. We will make sure that you're taken care of if you need a place to stay.
Quite a different story than what we've been seeing in the Eaton Fire and the Palisades Fires, as people are trying to contact their insurance companies and start the recovery process.
COOPER: Veronica --
MIRACLE: So that Eaton Fire is actually about 45 minutes from where we are -- Anderson.
COOPER: Veronica, what are the winds like? Because obviously, there's aircraft in the air and you just saw that helicopter. Are the winds still a concern in terms of spreading this?
MIRACLE: Yes, very much a concern. The wind gusts were incredibly strong when we first got here. They have since died down. We understand that they may be picking back up tomorrow, but they have died down enough now that the choppers are in the air. There was a period where we didn't see any aircraft, and the gusts were so strong that they were blowing -- it was blowing the fire, just moving it so quickly near, actually an RV Park.
You can see that's where all of these firefighters are stationed. They just descended upon this area and made sure that the RV Park and all the residences on the other side were okay, and they were able to stop that fire from spreading. So, that's the good news -- Anderson.
ANDERSON: All right, Veronica Miracle, appreciate it. We're going to continue to follow this throughout the hour. There have been a number of developments on the other big story from today, the fallout from President Trump's executive order, the first one he signed in the Oval Office on Monday, pardoning commuting sentences and dropping the cases of more than 1,500 people involved in the violent attempt to overthrow the 2020 election.
Now, keeping them honest, were talking about a number of people charged with very serious crimes who receive lengthy prison sentences. And as we saw today, in many cases, show no remorse at all. Case in point, this man, Stewart Rhodes, who showed up on Capitol Hill today a few short hours ago, he was one of the January 6th ringleaders and organizers not just returning to the scene of the crime, but apparently being welcomed back to it by some lawmakers.
He says he spoke with two one from the Tampa area, the other from near Dallas. Afterwards, Rhodes spoke with CNN's Manu Raju.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STEWART RHODES, FREED JANUARY 6 CONVICT: What did I do on January 6th that caused them harm? Did I touch any officer? Show me the video of me punching anybody. I didn't touch anyone. I stood outside --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: -- he wasn't even inside.
RHODES: I exercised my right to free speech. I talked about what I was seeing. I talked about what I felt about the election, that it was unconstitutional and illegal.
MANU RAJU, CNN SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Would you condemn the violence against the police that day? Well, here's what I will say about that. I think that when you have police officers using excessive force, like Michael Byrd shooting an unarmed woman in the neck and killing her, who is obviously not a lethal force threat to him, he's a really big guy --
RAJU: But they were trying to break into the Speaker's lobby, you know, a few feet away from them.
RHODES: So you just want him to use deadly force against everyone there?
RAJU: I mean, they were using a sledgehammer to break down the glass door.
RHODES: She wasn't.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Rhodes blaming police for the violence. More than 150 officers were injured that day. Others died in the days following. One of a stroke, others by suicide and just for reference, at his trial, prosecutors played a recording of that man, Rhodes that he made on January 10th, and quoting from the recording now, it said, "My only regret is they should have brought rifles."
Rhodes says in the recording, which was obtained by the FBI, "We should have brought rifles. We could have fixed it right then and there. I'd hang effing Pelosi from the lamppost. Rhodes told Manu today that when he said that, he was, "drunk and pissed off," adding, "That's still protected speech," though.
[20:05:24]
In any case, he and the militia he founded, the so-called Oath Keepers, were deeply involved, not just in January 6th, but also a larger, longer running effort to overturn the election. This earned him a very rare conviction, an 18-year sentence on the charge of seditious conspiracy, which isn't just words.
Seditious conspiracy is a joint effort, quoting from the Federal Criminal Code, "To overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the government of the United States." That is who some lawmakers apparently welcomed to their offices today.
Someone duly tried, convicted and sentenced for trying to overthrow or destroy by force the government that they are a part of. So the guy found guilty of that is now free and roaming the Halls of Congress, on the same day that House Speaker Mike Johnson announced a new subcommittee, its goal, in his words, exposing the false narratives peddled by the politically motivated January 6th Select Committee.
CNN's Manu Raju spoke with him as well today, before he spoke to Stewart Rhodes and asked Johnson about the pardons and presciently, whether he'd welcome the recipients back to the place they attacked.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RAJU: Republicans have long said you guys back the blue. How do you justifiably say that when Trump just pardoned a bunch of violent January 6 rioters who attacked Capitol Police? And if those rioters come to the Capitol, will you welcome them back here?
REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA): So, look, everybody can describe this however they want. The president has the pardon and commutation authority. It's his decision, and I think what was made clear all along is that peaceful protests and people who engage in that should never be punished.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: So, that's a response, not really an answer to the question. It sounds reasonable. Everyone can describe this however they want, he said. And that's true, it's not illegal to make up stuff, and it's the president's decision to pardon anyone he wants. That's also true and peaceful protests and the people who engage in them. That should never be punished, which sounds fine, but that's not what happened on January 6th. It doesn't square with the actual facts and what we all saw happen.
The president made no such distinctions between violent and nonviolent offenders. He didn't even draw the line at sedition. It was clemency for everyone. After a lengthy campaign rebranding them all as hostages.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP (R) PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: These are the hostages, approximately 1,500 for a pardon. Full pardon.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: So today we learned that some of those people whom he calls hostages, but again, who were in fact duly prosecuted, tried, convicted and sentenced rioters and ringleaders may soon be guests of the president at the White House. That's what two sources familiar with the discussions of it tell us. January 6th inmates at the White House.
That news came shortly after the Fraternal Order of Police finally broke their silence and weighed in on the pardons. The group, along with the International Chiefs of Police Association, issued a statement reading in part: "When perpetrators of crimes, especially serious crimes, are not held fully accountable, it sends a dangerous message that the consequences for attacking law enforcement are not severe, potentially emboldening others to commit similar acts of violence."
Hard to argue with that notion. Even then, President Trump paid lip service to it a week after January 6th.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: America is a nation of laws, those who engaged in the attacks last week will be brought to justice.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: That was from January 13th, 2021. He would go on, as you know, to lionize one of the perpetrators who was shot and killed trying to break into a hallway with then-Speaker Pelosi nearby. The same person Stewart Rhodes talked about with Manu Raju.
Then he began calling them hostages and promising pardons. And that said, as recently as November, he was suggesting he would not pardon violent offenders. His vice president-elect even said so on camera.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JD VANCE (R), VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: If you committed violence on that day, obviously, you shouldn't be pardoned. And there's a little bit of a gray area there, but were very much committed to seeing the equal administration of law.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Well, not so obvious to the president. Here's some of the very fine people the president can now invite to the white house.
There's Patrick McCaughey III, who assaulted DC metro police officer Daniel Hedges with a police shield in the tunnel of the Capitol. He was serving a seven-and-a-half-year sentence. The judge in his case called him, "a poster child of all that was dangerous and appalling about January 6th."
There's David Dempsey, seen here in that same tunnel, aiming a can of bear repellent spray at police. He also used a crutch to smash an officers head. Prosecutors said he used, "his hands, feet, flagpoles, crutches, pepper spray, broken pieces of furniture and anything else he could get his hands on as weapons." The judge sentenced him to 20 years.
The president could invite Daniel Rodriguez, who repeatedly shot Metro Police officer Michael Fanone in the neck with a stun gun, part of the mob that beat and nearly killed him that day. Hopefully, they would at least put him through a magnetometer if he visits the White House. We told you about Rodriguez last night. He was doing 12-and-a-half years, convicted of assaulting a federal officer with a dangerous weapon.
But we want to tell you more tonight about the ringleaders and the organizers, for whom January 6th was neither their first nor potentially their last time sowing political unrest and violence. Here's Stewart Rhodes back before the 2020 election.
[20:10:19]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RHODES: We have been already stationed outside DC as a nuclear option in case the attempt to remove the president illegally we will step in and stop it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: So, that clip was from November 3rd, 2020. He was talking to Alex Jones and referring to members of his so-called Oath Keepers militia and what they were in position to do to stop the transfer of power. Now, here's a speech he gave that December, talking about then President Trump, who had already lost the election.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RHODES: He needs to know from you that you are with him, that if he does not do it now, while he is commander-in-chief, we are going to have to do it ourselves later in a much more desperate, much more bloody war. Let's get it on now, while he is still the commander-in- chief.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Now, both clips were played at Rhodes' trial. The jury also heard testimony from group members about a large cache of weapons the group stashed in a nearby Virginia hotel for January 6th, said the witness, "I had not seen that many weapons in one location since I was in the military."
Eight other members of his group were either convicted of or pleaded guilty to seditious conspiracy.
Then there's Enrique Tarrio, leader of the so-called Proud Boys, serving 22 years for seditious conspiracy. The longest sentence handed down.
His group took part in confronting police at the Capitol and encouraging others to breach police lines. According to trial evidence, Tarrio created a special chapter of the group known as the Ministry of Self-Defense, the members of which conspired to prevent, hinder and delay the certification of the electoral college vote and to oppose by force the authority of the government of the United States. So, that's Enrique Tarrio. And while there's no indication yet whether he or Stewart Rhodes or any of the other people we've shown may end up at the White House, the president has already shown that he cannot condemn even them, the worst of the worst. Or more ominously, some would say even close the door on whatever their next act may be. Which is why something he said, which we played last night bears repeating
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: The leaders of the Proud Boys and the Oath Keepers were freed following their pardons yesterday. At the time back in 2021, you urged them to stand back and stand by. Is there now a place for them in the political conversation?
TRUMP: Well we have to see, they've been given a pardon. I thought their sentences were ridiculous and excessive.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: So, he's not saying no to a seat at the table. The political table for Tarrio and Rhodes. And what about House Speaker Mike Johnson, he said today he doesn't second guess President Trump on the pardons, then added this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHNSON: We believe in redemption. We believe in second chances. We're not looking backwards. We're looking forward.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Well, apparently, so is Enrique Tarrio. Here's what he told Alex Jones last night.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
ENRIQUE TARRIO, EX-PROUD BOYS LEADER: They didn't care about the evidence. They cared about putting Trump supporters in prison. Well, now it's our turn.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
COOPER: More now on where all this could lead. Joining us for that is CNN's Donie O'Sullivan, also, former FBI Deputy Director Andrew McCabe and former Republican congressman and January 6th Select Committee member Adam Kinzinger.
Donie, what are you hearing from some of these -- the most notorious people who were granted clemency?
DONIE O'SULLIVAN, CNN SENIOR CORRESPONDENT: Yes, I mean, just spending the last few days in Washington, DC, Quite surreal to see Oath Keepers and members of the Proud Boys proudly walking around the Capitol, even through the Halls of Congress tonight.
Speaking of the Proud Boys, the leader of the group there, as you mentioned, I was speaking to Alex Jones yesterday. And I want to play a little bit more of what he said. Have a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ALEX JONES, LEADER OF PROUD BOYS: Now, it's our turn. I'm happy that the president is focusing not on retribution and focusing on success, but I will tell you that I'm not going to play by those rules. The people who did this, they need to feel the heat. They need to be put behind bars, and they need to be prosecuted.
We should put Merrick Garland, at the very least for 90 days in federal prison and give him a taste of his own medicine of what he put us through. So, I'm calling for the incarceration of Merrick Garland.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O'SULLIVAN: So, standing back and standing by there for retribution and for vengeance. And also last night, as we were going on air with you from outside the DC Jail, Jake Lang, who was serving time in the jail, actually awaiting trial. He was accused of swinging a baseball bat at police officers on January 6th. He was released and have a listen to what he had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JAKE LANG, PARDONED J6 DEFENDANT: In history, it will be remembered when a free man stood up against tyranny. It is no longer the age where we have to hide in America.
We are back, the patriots, we don't have to crawl in the back corners of Facebook and Instagram being censored. We've got X, we've got Trump, we've got Musk, we've got the dream team. We're back.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O'SULLIVAN: And they're back, they are back. He's emboldened. He has built up a huge social media following during his time in jail. And he's talking about doing a tour around the country. So, there's a whole new generation, almost as these guys are being pardoned of martyrs of heroes.
[20:15:20]
COOPER: So, Andrew, what do you make of this. I mean, are you concerned about the leaders of these groups and for that matter, rank and file members being emboldened by this?
ANDREW MCCABE, CNN SENIOR LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Yes, absolutely, Anderson, there's no question that they'll be emboldened by it. This is a massive act of validation for the things that they believe and the wrongs that they think they've suffered over the last couple of years.
But the thing that really concerns me as a former law enforcement and intelligence officer is we know from history that when notable high profile, right wing White Supremacist groups, the KKK and others, win in court when they are prosecuted and they defeat those charges, that provides a surge in their recruiting and their ability to attract others and energizing their existing members and things of that nature.
So, I think there's no question that law enforcement, and particularly at the FBI, needs to be really focused on this threat right now because they are likely going to see a resurgence of interest and activity among these extremist groups.
The question is whether they and the prosecutors they work with will have the ability to investigate and prosecute those groups, because we now know from the pardons and all the rhetoric around them that there is a lining up here of the ideologies pursued and the policies pursued by this group and the current administration.
So, are they going to have our -- are law enforcement officials going to have the bandwidth that they need to have to go after these groups? We will have to see.
COOPER: And will the FBI director even allow that or, you know, task --
MCCABE: That's right.
COOPER: -- devote resources to it?
Congressman, you were on the January 6th Select Committee. What's your reaction to seeing Stewart Rhodes in the capitol complex today? And Speaker Johnson launching a new subcommittee to investigate what you did, what he called the false narratives around January 6th.
ADAM KINZINGER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: On the committee, I say this, bring it. I want to be able to talk about this again, because there's so much misinformation out there. Everybody says, oh, you know, remember when the Republicans were saying, let's move on from January 6th? I was actually ready to move on from it after the election. I'm like, everybody knew what was going on. And they're not. So fine, let's revisit the 187 minutes Trump didn't do anything.
Can I make another point? So I'm speaking as a Christian here. I saw Speaker Johnson say we believe in redemption. How dare you use the Bible in this? First off, the big key on redemption is repentance. All these people you saw, you just showed have no repentance. In fact, they think what they did is right. And look, Pam Hemphill, who actually is rejecting the pardon, she has real repentance for this.
She, and then, by the way, Hunter Biden, who was actually repentant of the things he did, spent two years being attacked for political purposes. I mean, don't talk about repentance, Speaker Johnson, defend this. Go out and defend that. There's these criminals on the street now, do that. I respect if you do it, all these Republicans, go on the record and say you agree with this, but don't come here with repentance to me.
COOPER: Congressman, I want to play more of what this guy, Lang, who allegedly swung a baseball bat at police during the attack, said last night when he was released. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LANG: The very first thing we've got to do is accountability. Accountability is everything right now. There's been nothing that has happened that the Bible tells us that is going to be left covered. We are going to uncover every single nook and cranny of the false January 6th select committee. Those people that perpetrated the crimes on us on the Capitol grounds that day, the FBI, the Antifa, paid little CHS agents and whatnot.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: I mean, what does he mean when he says accountability, do you think?
KINZINGER: Well, I don't know and that's the thing. Whatever he says, there's people that are thinking something different. You know, their accountability is whatever they think in their head.
He's right, he's right about one thing, the truth does come right about one thing. The truth does come out, and truth does ultimately win. That's why I'm a hundred percent confident that everybody that's supporting these pardons, everybody that was pardoned and the president himself will go down in history very, very scorned, and the country will be embarrassed by it.
You cannot be the party of law and order and say that this kind of thing is okay. So, I hope you know, every member of the media talking to a Republican member of Congress or the Senate or it doesn't let them do their little -- I got to take a deep look at it or I don't know the details, pin them down on their answer and hold them accountable for that. This is a legitimate thing. You have to go on the record for.
[20:20:04]
COOPER: Donie, in the online forums and you know, corners of the web and out now I guess in the halls of power, what are people chattering about this? I mean, among the right.
O'SULLIVAN: Yes. I mean, you no longer have to really go too far deep into the rabbit holes to see this stuff because obviously, Elon Musk now owns X.
COOPER: And as that person embraced him --
O'SULLIVAN: Yes and Mark Zuckerberg is loosening the rules on Facebook. And even you know Musk himself, that gesture he made on Inauguration Day, the Anti-Defamation League gave him the benefit of the doubt. The ADL, of course, one of the main organizations in this country fighting antisemitism, they said it was an awkward gesture, that he wasn't doing a Nazi salute.
As you can see, the gesture there on screen to the neo-Nazis, to the far right communities online that Musk engages a lot with. It was very clear what that salute was. They very clearly viewed it as a signal to them.
So there's that and then just of course, there's just a huge amount of chatter online all over the place about retribution, about coming after Democratic officials.
COOPER: Donie O'Sullivan, thank you. Andrew McCabe. Congressman Kinzinger, thank you.
Coming up next, why is Elon Musk publicly spoiling what President Trump is touting as a major accomplishment? A massive new investment in AI. Kara Swisher joins me with details.
Also, the latest on this new fire in LA County. More than 9,000 acres now on fire, it was 8,000 just a couple of minutes ago. Winds fanning the flames. We will go to the fire lines ahead.
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[20:25:35]
COOPER: More in tonight's breaking news. The rewriting of January 6th from the pardons, the new subcommittee investigating the work of the original select committee to a January 6th ringleader meeting with lawmakers on Capitol Hill.
For more on the fallout, were joined by CNN chief white house correspondent and anchor of "The Source," Kaitlan Collins.
So is the White House happy with the aftermath of these pardons? I mean, vows retribution from various January 6th rioters, Stewart Rhodes wandering around Capitol Hill giving interviews.
Are they concerned at all with some of the criticism, even from some Republicans?
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: I kind of think, Anderson, it depends on who you're asking at the White House, because there are certainly people in Trump's orbit who do not think that he should have pardoned everyone, virtually every defendant, as he did.
There were a lot of people who were urging him to look at these on a case-by-case basis or to leave out the people who had beat up cops on that day using their own gear, in some cases against them, like officer Daniel Hodges, who I spoke to about this last night.
And so, there are certainly people who are in that White House that hold this belief that that, no, that this shouldn't have been as carte blanche as it was.
But the only person who really matters is the president himself, and he has not expressed any regret about who he pardoned here and how wide the scope of this is.
And he's also defended them, even the ones who did assault law enforcement officers on that day who weren't all just convicted at trial. A lot of these people pleaded guilty, I should note, with these prosecutors, and they had evidence of what they did.
But Trump has been defending it, saying that he believes they were treated unfairly by the justice system and not really giving any ground on whether or not he should have pardoned those people, including the ones who beat up cops that day.
COOPER: President Trump announced yesterday a $500 billion investment in AI, then last night, Elon Musk publicly criticized it, saying that they didn't have the money. What's that all about?
COLLINS: So when I covered Trump in his first administration, there was this huge announcement around Foxconn. They were going to build this electric factory in Wisconsin. It's this Taiwanese maker and there was all this publicity around it. It was a big White House push. They encouraged reporters to talk about it, and then it never ended up materializing, certainly not in the way that it was touted.
It did not create anywhere near as many jobs as they said initially. And so, when this came out yesterday and Trump was in the Roosevelt Room making this announcement, I reminded people that this did happen before. And with these announcements, you kind of have to wait and see what happens before you go too far.
Now, on this one, we don't know. This is a data center that they're creating hoping to kind of expand infrastructure in the United States when it comes to artificial intelligence, because people like Sam Altman, who was standing next to Trump in the room yesterday, have warned we're way behind China when it comes to the AI race.
But Elon Musk is pouring cold water on this idea that this is a $500 billion investment. Initially, it's supposed to be $100 billion and then get up to $500 billion.
Elon Musk is claiming that this company doesn't even have $10 billion behind this to do this. Now, Sam Altman, the CEO of OpenAI, is disagreeing. They are basically in legal warfare. That's important context here between Elon Musk and Sam Altman, they are suing each other, and so, or Elon Musk is suing them.
And so it is important to remember there's tension here. But really the story of this is Elon Musk is undercutting Donald Trump on one of the biggest announcements he made on his first full day in office. And it raises that question we've been talking about, which is what does this look like when someone who is not afraid to voice his opinion, neither of them are, when those conflict and what this ultimately looks like.
But the White House is saying that people should take Trump's word for it, not Elon's.
COOPER: Yeah, I mean, Elon Musk's criticism was that this consortium doesn't have the money. The $500 billion. And they can raise that money pretty easily, but it's fascinating to see this criticism of something that President Trump is touting as a major accomplishment, you know, from yesterday. Kaitlin, we'll see you at nine o'clock more. We want to talk more on the second guessing right now by Elon Musk. I want to get perspective from tech journalist, author and pivot podcast co-host Kara Swisher.
So, Kara, I don't know if anybody should be surprised by this, but what do you make of Elon Musk appearing to undermine this major announcement from the president?
KARA SWISHER, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, he wants to undermine Sam Altman. That's his goal. He's obviously in a lawsuit with him. He had a lawsuit. Then he stopped the lawsuit, and then he had a lawsuit again, because of his involvement with OpenAI. So, this is a long running feud between these two tech entrepreneurs, specifically around AI.
COOPER: They used to be friend or you know --
SWISHER: They did. They did, a long time ago. It was many moons ago. But like a lot of people that talk to Elon a lot, myself, Reid Hoffman, many others, they're not. There's been a real break, especially between Altman and Musk over a variety of things.
And Elon is alleging certain things, and Sam is denying them denying them or just shaking his head, essentially.
[20:30:23]
COOPER: In this particular instance, I mean, he's alleging they don't have the money. I know you've spoken --
SWISHER: Yeah.
COOPER: -- to some of the parties involved in the Stargate Project.
SWISHER: I have.
COOPER: Even if they don't have cash on hand, I assume they could raise this money quickly now?
SWISHER: Now in four seconds.
COOPER: Yeah.
SWISHER: Yeah.
COOPER: I mean, there's a lot -- I know of a lot of people who would want to invest.
SWISHER: Yeah. There's not -- there's no lack of money among these people. They could do it out of their own pockets. Just Larry Ellison standing there, that's it. That's all you need. And interestingly, Ellison is close to Musk and has invested in Twitter and everything else. So there's plenty of money here.
I mean, I think there, he's trying to impugn the thing because he's not part of it, or it is -- Trump is showing a little independence from everything -- all things Elon essentially. COOPER: Do you -- I mean, there are those who have wondered whether this alliance between Trump and Musk would hit some bumps.
SWISHER: Yeah.
COOPER: Do you think it's a sign of that? I mean, how long would Trump tolerate -- and Musk could've gone to him privately and expressed his disdain?
SWISHER: Sure, he could've, yes. If he was anyone else, he could've, but Musk plays everything out, all his emotions on X or wherever he happens to be, because he's a look at me kind of fellow. And so what he did was, I think problematic. I think they were already sort of hurting over that hand signal, however you want to interpret it, problematic nonetheless. I think they think people within the Trump world do think Elon sucks up a lot of oxygen.
And as Maggie Haberman said, Trump is a one-ring circus. And so there can't be two ring masters. So, Elon is going to do what Elon wants to do because that's what he has always done, and that's maybe not worked so well in a Trump environment where Trump gets to call the shots.
COOPER: Can you just talk about the idea that they're proposing with Sam Altman and the SoftBank and Oracle?
SWISHER: Well, SoftBank has had a history of this, saying they're going to promise this much money, this much money. And he's a -- he's a great entrepreneur, let me just say. He has had some disasters, but he is had some huge successes, Masayoshi Son. And so like a lot of people, like Elon Musk, by the way, he has had some disasters and some huge successes. And so, this is an idea to bring more AI into this country so that we don't rely on China as we do when we make phones or things like that.
Let me add, the Biden administration had a chance, from what I understand, from several of these companies involved to be part of this. And there was all kinds of back and forth, but Trump, of course, walks in having done no work and takes credit for everything like he's going to do with the economy and everything else. So in that way, he's quite canny to do so and affiliate himself with the future, especially around AI.
COOPER: If Musk had complete power within the Trump administration, could he not have inserted himself into this deal? I mean, is this a sign that he does not have? I mean, if Sam Altman is the person involved in this deal --
SWISHER: Yeah.
COOPER: Not Elon Musk.
SWISHER: Yeah.
COOPER: Musk has his own company that he has started. Is that a sign that he doesn't have the toehold where he is not as secure? SWISHER: Well, OpenAI which Sam runs is the leader. They just are the leader in everything with ChatGPT. So, you would want to do a deal with them that's in this country. So, I don't see why he's surprised by that. And in this case, someone close to, not the OpenAI people, but other people involved, said that notice he wasn't in the Roosevelt Room. He didn't wander in like he did with Jeff Bezos. He didn't wander into meetings, which he tends to do at Mar-a-Lago. The White House is a little different. You can't just wander into things. And specifically, those companies didn't want Elon near this thing, and Trump seemed to agree with it.
COOPER: What did you think of the hand gesture Elon Musk gave? Did -- how did you --
SWISHER: I thought he -- I think it was a fascist salute. I think he knew what he was doing. I don't know. I don't live inside that head of his, so I think, everyone, he tried to describe as he's awkward. He was saying all kinds of things. As I said the other night, I just think, I think he's a troll above everything. And I think he probably knew what it would do because he likes to set people off. That would be my guess from having seen him do it up close. Oh, let's see what happens when I do this. That's sort of his personality, and he likes to do that.
He likes to poke bears. He likes to say all kinds of controversial things and watch everyone lose their minds. I think it -- let me just say, this is a, what, 53-year-old man, he really needs to do this kind of stuff. I don't understand it, but it took attention away from Donald Trump the very first day, no matter what. So he needs to be more careful in public if he's going to be a representative of the Trump administration.
COOPER: Kara Swisher, thank you.
SWISHER: Thank you.
COOPER: I should point out, Elon Musk had described this as dirty tricks, the talk of the gesture, talk about the gesture. Coming up, the latest on efforts to contain a new and quickly spreading wildfire in L.A. County. Also, how the president's new cracked down on unlawful migrants could affect those here lawfully on a farm not far from Mar- a-Lago.
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[20:38:55]
COOPER: More on our breaking news from California. In just the past few minutes, authorities provided an update on the rapidly expanding Hughes Fire in Los Angeles and Ventura counties. They say mandatory evacuation orders have expanded to 31,000. Those are live images you are seeing right now, taken from helicopters. The fire now covers about 9,400 acres. When we started this broadcast, the latest information I had was 8,000, then it went up to 9,000. Now, they say it's 9,400 acres. It's still at 0 percent containment. Veronica Miracle is back with us. Veronica, I mean, the helicopter images that we are seeing now live of this fire are extraordinary. Talk about the latest that you are hearing.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MIRACLE: Anderson, I can only imagine what it looks like from the air. We're actually on the other side of the ridge from where we originally were talking to you at the top of the hour and we have been watching as this hillside just glows this orange glow.
So, we can see that the flames are on the other side. And like many of these firefighters who are positioned here along this road, we are kind of just waiting and anticipating, are these flames going to kick up over this hillside and start moving toward this direction?
[20:40:00]
Over the past hour, firefighters really have been getting a handle on it. The helicopters that we showed you, they've been making a lot of progress. And actually, when we first arrived here, this hillside behind me was on fire. Now, it's just a little tiny flame there. We saw -- oh, sorry about that, Mike. Our photographer is just repositioning here. We saw bulldozers making lines of fire break to make sure that that fire doesn't move beyond any -- that area. It's kind of in a line there.
So they have been moving very quickly. But of course, we are very concerned about this hillside that's on fire just over here. We have also learned in the press conference, Anderson, that no structures have burned at this hour, but they are concerned about the weather. The red flag warning has been extended through Friday, so they're warning everybody. We are not out of the woods just yet. And the weather is a key factor in how they're fighting this fire and how it is progressing so rapidly.
COOPER: Veronica, thank you. I want to bring in Brent Pascua, Battalion Chief with CalFire. Chief, what have you been seeing in the last couple hours as we look at these live pictures now? It looks like multiple locations or just a very long fire line. What's it like there?
BRENT PASCUA, BATTALION CHIEF, CALFIRE: Yeah, it's another one of our Santa Ana wind-driven fires. The silver lining on this one is it is a little less wind than the Palisades Fire. It came straight from the Palisades Fire area. And unlike the first two days of that fire, these winds, we were able to fly our aircraft the whole time.
COOPER: So, the winds have been part of the problem in this latest fire, but not a big enough problem that you are -- I mean, you are able to do fixed-wing aircraft, you're able to do helicopters. We've been seeing those drops. Are you able to still do those at night now?
PASCUA: Yeah, that's correct. We will be able to do them at night as well as getting our fire crews directly on the fire line, whereas at the Palisades, it was so windy we couldn't dig in and actually establish control lines anywhere for those first two days.
COOPER: So one of the things that firefighters try to do is essentially build a line around the entire fire. I mean, this is burning 9,400 acres already, that's going to take time. How -- what kind of resources do you have on this, and is that the goal to try to dig a -- or build a line of where that's open ground without any kind of brush? And how big a line are you hoping to make?
PASCUA: Yeah, absolutely. We're going to -- we're going to build that line and right now, we don't have any structures damaged or destroyed, which is good news. We were able to surge a whole bunch of resources, thousands of firefighters, hundreds of pieces of equipment into this fire quick because we are positioned in the area just for something like this. So, a lot of -- a lot of crews here already and we are looking like really good on -- towards freeway where we're standing now. There is some containment on this side, not officially, but we'll see that come up a lot quicker than we did last week on the Palisades Fire.
COOPER: So, at this point, are you trying to build a line around the whole fire or do you prior -- I mean, I assume you prioritize a line between any kind of residential area or -- I mean, how do you make that determination?
PASCUA: Right. Yeah, Anderson, right now, our priority is the front of the fire, the fire front. We have engines at the houses that are in front of this fire, there to protect those structures. We're concentrating the aircraft where you see the orange glow. That's our main priority, is to slow this fire down and eventually stop it. And then we'll worry about getting a fire perimeter cut around the whole thing, once we get the main head of this fire slowed down and put out.
COOPER: How did -- I mean, is -- I mean, the crews that drop, you know, the helicopter pilots, the fixed-wing aircraft pilots, I mean, they're extraordinary, what they do and their ability to put retardant, put water, I mean, directly on these spots. It was just extraordinary to watch it up close. With winds, obviously, it makes it a little more difficult. And also, I assume at night, I mean, are they using night vision equipment to -- I -- they must be to fly in the dark, right?
PASCUA: Yeah. It'll just be that night flying helicopters that we have dropping water on the fire here at night. But today, they were both flying together in conjunction with those high winds. You saw the helicopters making water drops. At the same time, the planes were out in front, near the head, laying down that fire retardant. So, a real collaborative effort out here.
COOPER: Yeah, it's incredible what you're all doing. Brent Pascua, I appreciate your time tonight. I know how busy you are. Thank you.
[20:45:00]
Up next, we'll continue to, by the way, follow this throughout this hour and the night. As the president orders more troops to the border, David Culver tonight meets with legal migrants who do the tough agricultural work that many Americans ignore. We'(LAUGH) have his report in just a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: With these fast-moving flames in Los Angeles County, we're going to return to the fires right now. They have been growing throughout the hour from 8,000 acres to 9,000, now more than 9,400 acres and rising. It is twice as big as it was just three hours ago. I want to go back to our Veronica Miracle as we continue to monitor these live pictures.
Veronica, can you just explain, you are on the other side of this, essentially this is a fire moving along one side of a mountain. You are on the other side. Is that right? And what sort of structures are around you or are potentially vulnerable tonight?
[20:50:00]
MIRACLE: Yeah, so we are just down the street from actually an animal shelter, the local animal shelter. And then, if you just go even further beyond that, that's where you have some residences, hotels, and RV park. So there was major concern earlier when the fire was moving in that direction, that there would be potential structures lost. And so they put a huge, a vast amount of resources over there, and they still have a vast amount of resources over there.
Right here, you can see the glow of the fire behind us. And really what's burning is just open field, open land, a lot of dry brush, and that's what we're seeing this evening, burning up here. We have firefighters lined all up along this road here just to make sure that if the winds shift, they're going to be able to protect some of these structures that are just down the road.
More than 4,000 firefighters were moved onto this fire, and the only reason that that was even possible is because of what happened at the Eaton and Palisades fires. So we have so many firefighters from out of the state, out of the city, who have descended upon Los Angeles, who were standing by to make sure that everything was OK with the cleanup as well as the weather issues that we've been having, more red flag warnings. So that's why, when this fire broke out here, so many firefighters were able to come and to help.
If they didn't have that many mobilized, it is curious about what would've happened. Luckily, there were --
COOPER: Yeah.
MIRACLE: -- a lot of people though, and so at this hour no structures are damaged or destroyed.
COOPER: Yeah. If you will stand by, Veronica, I want to bring in L.A. County Fire Department Section Chief, Ken Haskett. Chief, appreciate you being with us. The number of resources you've been able to pre- deploy for this, obviously that's incredibly good news, as well as the fact there's still helicopters able to fly at night. Can you just talk about what you were -- what you have been seeing over the last hour or so? Because when we started an hour ago, it was 8,000 acres. Now, it seems like more than 9,400 acres.
KENICHI HASKETT, SECTION CHIEF, LOS ANGELES COUNTY FIRE DEPARTMENT (through telephone): Correct. We're well over 9,400 acres and you can see the flames there. Those flame lengths today were reaching in excess of 20 to 30 feet high. Winds sustained in the mid 20s, which is not -- nothing compared to what we were dealing with on January 7th. But luckily, because of what happened or in the sense of luckily, tragedy of the Eaton and both the Palisades, we were able to surge in over 4,000 firefighters, as well as our air support, our very large air tankers and our super scoopers and our scoop nucks.
COOPER: So, how much retardant and water do you know were you able to put on the ground? I assume it was used to directly fight flames. Were you able to put retardant on areas where the fire might be heading?
HASKETT (through telephone): Yes. So they made it to those ridge tops in a lot of those areas to stop that really fast forward moving pace. But right now, we are not dropping retardant at night, but we have our Chinooks flying, our Firehawks and those fire hawks drop over a thousand gallons. The Chinooks are able to refill within 90 seconds and they drop over 3,000 gallons of water.
COOPER: Wow. They can refill in 90 seconds? That's incredible.
HASKETT (through telephone): Yes. Within 90 seconds. And luckily, for what it's worth, we're right next to Castaic Lake, so we'll use that lake as well.
COOPER: The -- we were talking to chief just a short time ago, who talked about the emphasis in terms of trying to build a line is on the forward edge of the fire that is -- potentially would be threatening structures nearby.
HASKETT (through telephone): Correct. Yeah. So our goal is to get dozer lines in there and then those flame lengths that you guys are seeing, the intent is to get the Chinooks, our Firehawks in there throughout the night to start doing water drops. With the 4,000 firefighters, we'll get them in there to kind of flank the fire to the left on the right of it, as you look at it, and to get all those little smoldering hotspots you see.
COOPER: And so you -- and you -- so you have bulldozers already on scene making lines, pushing aside any kind of flammable debris to create how long a line? I mean, is it like eight foot? Is it 12 foot? It depends on, I guess, the terrain.
HASKETT (through telephone): Yes. It depends on the blade. The blades run anywhere between eight to 12 feet in length and that blade will cut down at least an inch, two inches of the dirt, so you're getting dirt. So you're not getting any shrubbery or chaparral on that dirt. Earlier today, you saw that big black smoke or the big black fumes.
COOPER: Yeah.
HASKETT (through telephone): That was a lot of the unburned chaparral, so that has that oil. The chaparrals have oil. COOPER: Chief Haskett, we got to take a quick break. We're going to gather more information. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:58:53]
COOPER: Well, the fast-growing fire in Northern California on the move, the flames heading toward Veronica Miracle's position. She has just quickly relocated. Veronica, explain why -- the need to relocate.
MIRACLE: We moved just a little further down the street as these flames kind of grow and as we're watching them, we're just making sure that we're staying in a safe position. Of course, as you know from your experience of being out here, the wind can change and move embers very quickly and spark -- start spot fires.
These firefighters are lined up along this road that we have been positioned on, making sure that all of the area that is near us is going to be safe. But of course, the glow of the flames from this vantage point is very ominous. Luckily, temperatures are dropping and wind speeds are also dropping. And so, we heard from the fire chief earlier at the press conference, they're going to try and take advantage of all of this, this evening, while also letting these firefighters who've been working so hard all day today, get some rest.
So, they're going to be kind of juggling all of that to make sure that this doesn't extend too far into tomorrow. And then of course, these flames do not move into Castaic, the city proper, where so many residences are and structures are currently threatened. Anderson?
COOPER: Yeah. More than 4,000 firefighters responding to this. Extraordinary.
