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Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees

Delta Plane Crashes In Toronto; Trump: "He Who Saves His Country Does Not Violate Any Law"; AP: Russia Releases American Citizen Detained On Cannabis Charges Ahead Of High-Level U.S.-Russia Talks In Saudi Arabia; Israeli's Mark 500 Days Since The October 7th Massacre. Aired 8-9p ET

Aired February 17, 2025 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

ELLE REEVE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: When asked about the executive order, Cornell said it continues to evaluate how the order will affect its community. As more concrete information becomes available, it will provide guidance. Will the executive order affect your activism going forward?

BIANCA WAKED, PHD CANDIDATE, CORNELL UNIVERSITY: Well I might not be as quick to pick up a megaphone, I'll put it that way. But I'm still going to be writing. I'm still going to be teaching. I'm still going to be thinking through and encouraging folks to have these conversations. And so, yes, but I guess it will affect it, at least a little bit.

REEVE: Elle Reeve, CNN, Ithaca, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: Thank you for joining us. AC360 starts now.

[20:00:40]

JOHN BERMAN, CNN HOST: Tonight on 360. How did an airliner with 80 passengers on board end up upside down and on fire on a snowy runway? And how did every one of those people somehow manage to survive?

Good evening. John Berman here, in for Anderson.

And when you look at what's left of Delta Flight 4819 on its back off runway 23 at Toronto's Pearson International Airport, you have to stop and catch your breath when you see passengers escaping, even more so.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Everything, drop it. Come on. Don't take no video away.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Go, go. Holy (bleep). Holy (bleep). Holy (bleep). Oh, my (bleep) God.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: This is video -- extraordinary video a passenger took climbing out of an over wing exit that's now an under wing exit. Or would be if the right wing were still there. Others got out through the front exit of the CRJ-900 regional jet operated for Delta by Endeavor Air. Their world literally turned upside down. This is not how you ever expect to see a passenger plane, let alone one in which anyone, or in this case, everyone, makes it out alive.

The crash happened on landing at about 2:13 this afternoon. That's according to FlightAware. A short time later, this is the conversation between Toronto tower and a rescue chopper.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MEDEVAC PILOT: Where's the crash?

TOWER: It's on runway two-three, right at the threshold, right at the intersection there, Two-three and 15 left.

MEDEVAC PILOT: Okay, we got it in sight. Can you tell us what type aircraft it was?

TOWER: Yes, it was an R-J9.

MEDEVAC PILOT: Roger.

TOWER: LifeFlight 1, Medevac, just so you are aware there are people outside walking around the aircraft.

MEDEVAC PILOT: Yes, we're got it. The aircraft is upside down and burning.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: The aircraft is upside down and burning. The question now, how did it get that way? At least 17 people were hurt.

In a moment, we'll be joined by a team of aviation experts and air safety experts. First, though, CNN aviation correspondent Pete Muntean, who has done phenomenal work all day long keeping us updated on this. What's the latest you're learning about what caused the crash, Pete?

PETE MUNTEAN, CNN AVIATION CORRESPONDENT: Well, the cause here is still under investigation, John. And, of course, investigators want to look at the airplane, the pilots and the environment.

The airplane, probably not a big question here because it flew several times throughout the day, but the most abnormal thing here is the environment and especially the wind at the time of this crash, 27 knots gusting to 35 knots, about 40 miles per hour at a 40-degree angle to the runway that this plane was landing on, which could have posed some pretty interesting challenges here.

It's not totally clear what caused this plane to roll onto its back, because the flight data shows the plane coming in on a relatively stable approach. Nothing out of the ordinary there. But now investigators will want to know if the wind played a factor and it did in previous crashes like the crash of Continental 1404 back in 2008 that was on takeoff, but a similar outcome. Everybody walked away from that crash, mostly okay.

The investigators now really have their work cut out for them. And of course they will be asking if the condition of the runway was also a factor here. Biting cold there in Toronto at the time of this crash. About 18 degrees before you factor in the wind chill.

BERMAN: Yes, you can see the passengers shivering on the runway after they managed to escape. First responders were on the scene in just minutes. What more can you tell us about the immediate aftermath?

MUNTEAN: A textbook and harrowing response here by the airport rescue and firefighting crews. They were able to get to that plane that was apparently on fire. We know that not only from the singe marks on the fuselage there, where the right wing was, but also near the engines, and also the video of the black smoke rising above Toronto Pearson International Airport.

They used foam and water trucks that are able to spray as they're moving. That is so critical because fire can spread so quickly in a crash like this. You just have to imagine the terror that the passengers were feeling turned upside down, hanging from their seatbelts in a dark passenger cabin that is on fire.

Everybody did their job here, from the pilots, the flight attendants, the control tower, the first responders all the way down to the passengers in getting out of this airplane safely and quickly, everybody escaping with their lives.

BERMAN: What about injuries, Pete? What are you hearing about that?

MUNTEAN: The latest update from Toronto Pearson International Airport CEO is that 17 were injured in this crash. We thought maybe a couple were critically injured.

She said, there were only minor injuries in this crash -- was especially good news. You know, a lot of people can be injured in something like this because they're hanging from their seatbelts, and then they go to unstrap their seat belts. They could fall essentially because of gravity to the ceiling, which is now the floor, and injure their head, neck or back. So, really pretty incredible here that not many people were injured.

Only 19 days ago that we were covering the crash of an American Airlines flight over the Potomac river when it was hit by a military Army Black Hawk helicopter. All 67 people in that crash died. And here we are talking about an extremely different outcome that could have been much worse.

[20:05:47]

BERMAN: Very different. All right, Pete, stick around, if you will.

I want to bring in former National Transportation Safety Board managing director, Peter Goelz. Also, Steven Wallace, former director of the FAA's Office of Accident Investigation.

And, Steve, I want to start with you here. When you look at the pictures of this plane just upside down, partially charred aircraft on its roof missing a wing and its tail. Where do you begin with this investigation?

STEVEN WALLACE, FORMER DIRECTOR OF ACCIDENT INVESTIGATIONS: You know, I think its first worth noting that this is the second accident that people will describe as miraculous at this exact same airport, because the Air France crashed an Airbus 340 in August of 2005, two hundred ninety-seven passengers, 12 flight attendants -- 309 people got off that airplane, which was completely destroyed by fire and without a single life threatening injury.

And I would just quote what the Transportation Safety Board of Canada said at the time of that accident as prophetic. Unfavorable weather conditions and poor landing decisions combined -- that's what they said about that accident. And I'm not passing judgment on what happened in this accident.

Now, you know, when we certify an airplane at the FAA and I worked in Aircraft Certification for many years, we do evacuation demonstrations where we basically, you load it up with a representative, a load of passengers, age, sex mix, and you block half the exits. It's standing on its landing gear, and it's just kind of a certification criteria. And people have a tendency to think, oh, you are supposed to get out in 90 seconds and that's just a certification criteria.

And this accident demonstrates kind of the ultimate fallibility of the FAA's approach. Well, it's a good criteria to measure the escape- ability. But look at this, this is completely -- escapes lives ridiculous.

The airplane is inverted. Accidents never happen the way they're supposed to.

BERMAN: No, you have to have a cool head to get out of this safely and clearly they did. Peter Goelz, what are the initial questions you think are most important to have answered tonight?

PETER GOELZ, CNN AVIATION ANALYST: Well, I've got complete faith in the Transportation Safety Board of Canada. They are methodical and they're good and they are going to get -- they will issue an interim report per a treaty, the ICAO Treaty that we're all signatories to in 30 days.

I think it's extraordinary that there were 17 injuries, none of them serious. And that that is a tribute to the way in which these planes are designed.

Now, since the early 2000, they've had to have, as of 2009, 16G seats, seats that can withstand an accident such as this and not detach themselves from the floor of the aircraft.

Steve knows and we've seen accidents where people have survived the crash landing, but been killed because their seats have been propelled forward and people have died. It is extraordinary that these folks walked away from this. And it's a sign during this political year of where a government regulation saved lives.

BERMAN: Those seats, had they not been in there, we might have had a very different outcome.

Pete, at what point is a windy day at the airport too windy to land? And what were the wind speeds here, exactly?

MUNTEAN: Thirty five knots was the peak gust recorded at the time, but that is just a snapshot of the wind at the time. There could have been gusts that were higher.

I could tell you, I've scratched flights all the time from my little airplane, but the difference here is that my airplane weighs about 2,000 pounds, a CRJ-900 weighs about 47,000 pounds.

So, they are much more capable when it comes to commercial airplanes and the wind, but it is always a factor.

And this is kind of at about the limit for flights, especially given the fact that there was a major wind event up and down the Eastern Seaboard. The winds were very high here in Washington. There were a lot of flight diversions in this area.

There's a huge low pressure system moving through causing all this wind. So, this is pretty significant. And of course, investigators want to look at the wind and whether or not the plane was capable, whether or not the pilots were capable and there's some big questions there.

[20:10:23]

BERMAN: Peter Goelz, this plane took off from Minneapolis, landed in Toronto. Will the investigation extend all the way back to when it took off from US soil? And could that be relevant or really just be focused on the landing in Toronto?

GOELZ: Well, with standard investigation, they will lock down all of the information about this plane, its maintenance history, where it's been. They will lock down all the information about the flight crew. Did they have enough rest? Were they properly trained? They were locked down -- everything that they can to uncover what contributed to this accident and what might be declared a probable cause.

So, yes, and the Canadians will lead the investigation. But the United States, through the NTSB, the FAA is a party to this investigation, they will assist. And, I think in 30 days, we're going to have a good picture of what happened here.

BERMAN: Thirty days. Pete, in some of the video that we've seen -- we've heard, we think flight attendants telling people to leave their bags, just get out, get out. Based on what we've seen so far, what kind of training do you think aided in making this such a successful evacuation? MUNTEAN: Flight attendants are aviation's first responders, and they are there in part for your convenience, but primarily to keep you safe.

And one of the big things that we see over and over in accidents, not so much in the US, but especially abroad, is people bringing their bags with them, which can really slow down an evacuation when seconds count, lives are on the line.

And so, you heard the flight attendants saying, leave it behind. I'm a little disturbed by the fact that there is video being taken of the evacuation from the first person. It's incredible to see, although probably not advisable, it's really, really important to leave everything behind. Those things are replaceable. You cannot replace your life.

BERMAN: Good points you're making there. Pete Muntean everyone, thank you so much.

Next perspective from one of the two pilots behind what became known as the miracle on the Hudson, Chesley "Sully" Sullenberger will join us.

And later, after raising concerns, he would defy the courts then saying, of course he wouldn't, the president is now tweeting, he who saves his country does not violate any law. What's up with that? We're keeping them honest.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:16:45]

BERMAN: More on tonight's breaking news from Toronto, where authorities at Canada's busiest airport are investigating the crash of a Delta Air Lines passenger jet. The plane ended up upside down on its roof, partially charred and missing its tail and right wing. The pictures are extraordinary. Miraculously, all 76 passengers and four crew members survived.

Joining us now is Chesley "Sully" Sullenberger, the captain of US Airways 1549, the so-called "Miracle on the Hudson Flight." Captain Sullenberger is also the former US Ambassador to the International Civil Aviation Organization.

Ambassador Sullenberger, great to see you. What's your view of what happened in Toronto? How does a plane end up upside down?

CHESLEY "SULLY" SULLENBERGER, FORMER US AIRWAYS CAPTAIN: John, it's good to be with you and thank you for mentioning the 1549 flight. Of course, I was only half of it. Captain Jeff Skiles was the other half.

I'm very glad that the families of those involved got good news and that everyone survived. And that's a real testament to all the hard work that's been done up until now.

My takeaway from this is that these recent crashes and incidents are a reminder that in spite of how safe aviation has become, there's still a lot of work to be done and investments to be made.

BERMAN: How so? You say the system is taxed. Explain.

SULLENBERGER: Well, we're understaffed, particularly in air traffic control and maintenance on the navigation facilities that we use in this country. We still need to make investments to make sure that aviation can be kept as safe as it is. And to meet, I think, what is our obligation as we learn how to make aviation safer, to make those investments, to keep making improvements as we go forward into the future. I think we owe that to everyone who flies.

BERMAN: Talk to us about what it's like to be in the cockpit at a moment of crisis like this. Obviously, the circumstances were different, and what happened here was, I think must have been seconds in the making. But what do you have to do to try to prevent or avoid the loss of life?

SULLENBERGER: Well, you have to work together. Passengers and crew and you have to make very important decisions very quickly and make them correctly.

You have to very quickly be able to synthesize basically everything you've ever learned about flying, and apply that to solve a problem you've never seen before and get it right the first time. It's not something that's easy to do, but it's what aviation professionals are trained to do and do it very well.

BERMAN: Based on what we're seeing here, we have some of the pictures up on the screen. I don't know if you can see them of some of the passengers already on the runway. They must have been evacuated so quickly. How important do you think the proper training is in having a miracle like this?

SULLENBERGER: Well, it's clearly the result of the crew working well together and the passengers listening to the crew and understanding where the emergency exits are, how they work, not taking their belongings with them. Even on our flight, as happens in every accident flight.

Many of the passengers tried to take their luggage with them, and when we were evacuating the airplane into the rafts on the Hudson River, some of the other passengers seeing passengers take their luggage with them threw the luggage into the river.

So, it was almost karma that the only people who did get their luggage back were the people who tried to take them with them.

[20:20:18]

BERMAN: I was on the Hudson. I was one of the first reporters to race to the banks. I saw it floating down the river. It was a remarkable sight, and I know how important it was for you to get confirmation that all souls on board your plane were accounted for. There have been no fatalities.

So, what kind of emotions do you expect that the Delta crew is going through tonight in Toronto?

SULLENBERGER: Well, clearly, the crew and the families and the passengers and their families will have to process this. And even though there was a good outcome, I'm sure the event itself was very stressful.

They may feel what we did and have some version of posttraumatic stress disorder afterward. But if they talk about it, if they process it and work at it, they can all come out of it better on the end.

BERMAN: It is important to talk about it. I hope they have each other tonight to get through this. They are all very lucky. But as you said, it was important that they work together.

Captain Sullenberger, thank you so much for your time. We appreciate you being with us.

SULLENBERGER: Good to be with you. Thank you.

BERMAN: Up next, we will take a closer look at the wind conditions on the ground in Toronto and why the plane seats were crucial in the survival of these passengers.

And serious concerns tonight about the health of Pope Francis, hospitalized for a fourth night as doctors change course on his treatment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:25:47]

BERMAN: All right, more on tonight's breaking news on the plane crash in Toronto and how weather conditions could have affected the landing.

Strong winds with gusts up to 40 miles per hour had been hitting the area all day, and this follows an intense snow storm over the weekend, which left the airport with blowing and drifting snow to deal with.

CNN's Tom Foreman is with us now talking about the high winds. Tom, what does that look like?

TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, what it looked like as they came in was a strong wind coming in at sort of a 45-degree angle to the way that they were trying to land.

So, imagine if this is the runway here on both sides, and they're trying to come in and you have these strong winds coming in from this angle roughly.

To deal with this, John, typically, what you're going to do is either angle the plane toward the wind or tip this wing down -- there are two different approaches, and when you get close to the ground, you want to sort of adjust everything over to get the wheels down headed straight.

That's a very simple explanation, but that's what you're trying to do. It's a lot to do in a short period of time, and it is challenging. And if you do it, if you don't get it exactly right or you get the wrong gust, you can get one under a wing over here pushing you up, or you can get a little off center here and on ice and snow, maybe start sliding once something gets over the edge over here, or a wing tip touches the ground, all bets are off.

BERMAN: All bets are off, indeed. We talked about -- Peter Goelz did about how the seats on this plane might have saved lives. Explain that.

FOREMAN: Peter Goelz is really making a very important point here, as he always does. The 16G seat when you hear this term, 16G it's basically 16G like you hear about jet fighters, your gravitational force.

The reason this seat was required on so many planes is precisely for this. If you had a plane that started tumbling, or a plane that somehow survived impact, very often there's a fireball, a huge problem, they don't survive. But if they do survive, you don't want people dying inside simply because the seat collapses or doesn't stay bolted to the floor.

The 16G seat was made precisely for this reason, and the FAA was happy with the results they got out of testing of these. Why don't they make them above 16G? Because an impact above that you're not going to survive even if you remain strapped into the seat.

A big goal here making these big challenge. You're upside down inside that plane trying to release that buckle and drop down without hurting yourself. That's a big challenge, but at least you have that chance.

And in this case, these seats are going to be considered a real winner in all of this, even as they try to sort out whether the wind or the ice or something else had to do with this problem.

BERMAN: Yes, built for exactly this scenario.

Tom Foreman, great to see you. Thanks so much.

FOREMAN: Good seeing you, John.

BERMAN: With us now, commercial airline pilot, Josh Schirard. And Josh, when you see the damage from this plane, not just upside down, but the damage to the wing and the tail, what does that suggest to you about how it came down?

JOSH SCHIRARD, COMMERCIAL AIRLINE PILOT: You know, as I saw these pictures in the video and as I hope the American public is seeing these pictures in the video, I know it's somewhat contradictory and a hot take, but I see this and I see how safe air travel actually is. We're looking at a CRJ-900, a commercial airline that came in at about 120 miles an hour, hit the ground, rolled for some reason, sheared off both the wings. The tail caught on fire. And we are looking at every occupant walking out of that plane.

That plane's engineering is absolutely a marvel. Coupled with the flight crew and the cabin crew and the flight attendants that were able to effectively and efficiently and professionally get everyone out of that aircraft. To me, when I look at this, that's what I see is a safe airplane and a very proficient crew.

BERMAN: Got it. I guess, though, we want to address the questions of how did it end up in the position that it did. Talk to us about the wind, 40 miles per hour that was gusting, coming in at an angle. How can that make landing more difficult? And how do you deal with that?

SCHIRARD: Absolutely, So, when we're looking at the airplane coming in on runway two-three, the winds at Toronto are coming at 270. So, right out of the west. So, like we just talked about we had about a 40- degree quartering headwind coming at that aircraft. What that means is, we do a bunch of math and a bunch of numbers is we generate a crosswind component out of that.

Basically, the amount of wind that's actually cutting a beam of the aircraft and we're looking at about 23 knots or about 28 to 29 miles an hour, which is actually well within the CRJ-900's demonstrated max crosswind component of 35 knots or about 39 to 40 miles an hour.

So, when the pilots are coming in, they realize that they're going to have a stiff crosswind. It's going to be challenging, but it is well within the limits.

The issue that I think that we're seeing here is we're having multiple problems come up at the same time, which really hinders our ability to mitigate a lot of that risk.

[20:30:38]

We're looking at the environmental conditions, the ice, the snow on the runway. I literally flew out of Aspen, Colorado this morning that had far less snow and ice on the runway and taxiways, and we were sliding all over the taxiways.

So what I think we're looking at here is that wind making a very challenging landing that the pilots, I'm sure, were very capable of and have probably done several times. But when we're trying to do it on snow and ice, the chance of them hitting an ice patch and that gusty wind coming just at the same time can absolutely blow them off the runway. Anybody that's driven on the roadway and hit a patch of ice realizes that once you hit it, you're at the mercy of inertia and momentum and -- and physics at that point.

So the propensity of that all coming together at the same moment and then leaving the runway, I think is where we're seeing this plane roll, and they're seeing the damage and the crash that occurred.

BERMAN: We should get some answers fairly soon. Josh Schirard, we appreciate your expertise on this. Thank you very much.

SCHIRARD: Thanks for having me.

BERMAN: We got more news next, starting with the President petitioning the highest court in the land for help, but also suggesting he's above the law. What's with that?

Also, a look ahead to tomorrow's U.S.-Russia peace talks over Ukraine, but without Ukraine even present.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:35:59]

BERMAN: So keeping them honest tonight, the President of the United States is now on the record in a way claiming to be above the law. You may have seen this from the President on social media. He who saves his country does not violate any law. For a while he pinned it to the top of his post. It is purported to be something from the French Emperor Napoleon Bonaparte, something he once said that was Providence's dubious.

In any case, Napoleon was no champion of democracy or the rule of law. The emperor part sort of gives it away. Presidents, on the other hand, are supposed to be. They even say so out loud before taking the job.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In will to the best of my ability --

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: In will to the best of my ability --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: -- preserve, protect, and defend --

TRUMP: -- preserve, protect, and defend.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: -- the Constitution of the United States.

TRUMP: -- the Constitution of the United States.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So help me God.

TRUMP: So help me God.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: So how to square that with, so help me God unless I'm saving the country, then all bets are off. Because that's what the President seems to be suggesting. And with more than a dozen court cases now pending against a slew of administration orders and actions, that's not all he is saying. In just the last couple of weeks, he has said that judges should not be telling the executive branch what to do.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: Judges should be ruling. They shouldn't be dictating what you're supposed to be doing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: He has said judges should not be interfering in his freezing spending, which Congress duly approved and mandated.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: The day you're not allowed to look for theft and fraud, et cetera, then we don't have much of a country. So no judge should be -- no judge should frankly be allowed to make that kind of a decision.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: The President and Vice President have both openly flirted with the notion of directly defying court orders.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

J.D. VANCE, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: And when the courts, because you will get taken to court, and when the courts stop you, stand before the country like Andrew Jackson did and say, the chief justice has made his ruling, now let him enforce it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: The President has also said that as president, he enjoys almost unlimited power.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: I have an Article 2 where I have the right to do whatever I want as president.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When the president does it, it's not illegal?

TRUMP: I'm just saying a president under Article 2, it's very strong. Read it. Do you have Article 2? Read it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: Now Article 2 lays out the power of the executive branch, the powers, which are considerable, and which only grew with the Supreme Court ruling in the immunity case, United States versus Trump.

What the President does not mention though, is the responsibilities laid out in Article 2, including that he shall, quote, take care that the laws be faithfully executed. Now, to be fair, when this first caused an uproar a bit more than a week ago, the President backtracked saying, of course I will not defy the courts. I will just appeal the case.

In fact, he said it more than once and his press secretary said it too. But then just a few days later, it's he who saves his country does not violate any law. Just yesterday, he filed an emergency appeal asking the Supreme Court to let him fire this man, Hampton Dellinger, who heads the Independent Office of Special Counsel, which is a top government watchdog for protecting whistleblowers.

In establishing the position, Congress made it clear the special counsel could only be removed by a president for, quote, inefficiency, neglect of duty, or malfeasance in office. In firing him, the White House cited none of those. And it's hardly the only such firing the White House has carried out.

In petitioning the high court, the President is asking for a stamp of approval to exercise power above and beyond the norm. And he's asking it of a court that has shown itself to be open, even enthusiastic about expanding presidential power. And in sowing what might be called strategic ambiguity about whether he would obey the courts, he may be nudging the court to do what it takes to avoid a constitutional showdown or he might just be popping off.

With us now, former senior advisor to President Biden, Ashley Etienne, Republican media consultant and strategist, Brad Todd, and former federal prosecutor and bestselling author, Jeffrey Toobin. His latest book just out, is "The Pardon: The Politics of Presidential Mercy." I am three quarters of the way through. It is fantastic.

[20:40:07]

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Thank you, sir.

BERMAN: All right, Mr. Toobin, counselor. What do you make of President Trump sharing this quote, maybe not from Napoleon?

TOOBIN: Well, I -- I think you put it right when you said strategic ambiguity, because he has said, as he said in the press conference with little X, Musk, running around, that he will follow court orders. But there has been a lot of talk, especially from Elon Musk. That's the thing that's actually the most threatening, where he's taught -- where Musk has been tweeting, saying, you know, these judges are should be impeached.

And -- and as you said, Vance has been tweeting, suggesting that they wouldn't follow court orders. I -- I think the -- the goal here is to say to the justices, look, you want trouble or do you want no trouble? And no trouble would be go along with us. So you don't force the kind of confrontation that we're, you know, hinting we might -- we might have.

BERMAN: You think this flirtation is a legal strategy?

TOOBIN: Sorry?

BERMAN: You think the flirtation here?

TOOBIN: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. So -- so Brad, let me ask you this. Would Republicans have been okay with President Obama posting a quote or non-quote from Napoleon that talks about being beyond the law? Or is it only okay when President Trump does it?

BRAD TODD, GOP MEDIA CONSULTANT & STRATEGIST: You know, John, I think we've been trolled here by -- by President Trump. And then these -- these -- sometimes these things are designed to sort of spin people into the ceiling. But as you know, as Jeffrey notes, the -- the Trump administration is going to court to make its case. It's not trampling over laws. It's actually going to court. And when it loses, it appeals. And now we have this case, the Dellinger case has come before the Supreme Court on whether or not the President can fire the head of an independent agency.

That is a debate that has been going on for -- for decades. In fact, this is Office of Special Counsel, which was the one in question here, Dellinger's office. When Jimmy Carter created it, his own lawyers thought it was unconstitutional that the president couldn't remove this head. So this is not a new debate. And I think it's -- it's actually healthy that we're getting to have this debate about something that's been in doubt -- in -- in doubt for quite a while.

BERMAN: So -- so Ashley, you -- you know, Brad put it in an interesting way that we're being trolled here. The Democrats ran against Donald Trump as being a strongman, a threat as a strongman, a dictator on day one. They used a quote that he had made. They ran against that and they lost. So how effective is it for Democrats to sort of focus on this?

ASHLEY ETIENNE, FORMER SENIOR ADVISER TO PRES. BIDEN & SPEAKER PELOSI: Well, I mean, I think this notion that Donald Trump isn't fulfilling his promise to be a dictator on day one is actually laughable. If you recall, in the first term, the goal, and Steve Bannon and Steve Miller laid it out, was to expand the power and authority of the president. They believe that the President has absolute authority.

And that's what we're seeing being tested, from the -- the purging of the FBI and all these agencies that would hold the President accountable to the systematic dismantling of government, to the testing of laws from TikTok to others, you know, challenging the authority of Congress. That's what's really at play here. And we should not toy around with the American people.

Now, whether or not it's effective, we'll find out. I mean, we -- we, you know, we -- we -- we tried to hold Donald Trump accountable to his word in the last election, and the American people didn't believe us. But now they're seeing it with their own eyes. And you see his own -- his own supporters in states from Kentucky to Indiana and others that are bawling out of their eyes, asking, well, what about us, Mr. President? Why do you try to amass all this power? Whatever happened to your promise to lower costs?

They did not vote for this, but this is the reality. This is always the test that Donald Trump was testing since he was first elect -- elected. So we shouldn't play games with American people, trying to make it seem like this is about trolling, when really it's about amassing absolute power.

BERMAN: In -- in taking the Dellinger case to the Supreme Court, Jeffrey, the Office of the Special Counsel, this seems like a deliberate choice here, testing a deliberate thing here. I think we're talking about Humphrey's executor here. They're talking about a Supreme Court case from the 1930s that this court may overturn.

TOOBIN: Right. Now, there are procedural issues with the Dellinger case that might encourage the court simply to send it back and let it get, you know, developed further before they decided on the merits. However, President Trump is on stronger legal ground in the Dellinger case than he is on many of the others that are floating around at the moment for just this reason. There has been a movement in the conservative world for a long time that any head of a department should be removable by the President, with or without cause.

Now, the statute says it has to be with cause, some sort of misconduct. But the conservative legal movement has said it doesn't matter. And there may be five votes on the court. And it's not just important for the Office of Special Counsel, which is this obscure corner of the government, the National Labor Relations Board, the Securities and Exchange Commission, Federal Trade Commission, all these so-called independent agencies have officials that can't be removed by the president. If the law changes, if Trump wins this case, all those people could have their jobs at -- at -- at risk.

[20:45:18]

BERMAN: And Brad --

TODD: John, there's actually good precedent on that. There's actually precedent from 2020. The Supreme Court ruled that the -- the CFPB, the Consumer Finance Protection Bureau, their setup was unconstitutional because it didn't -- it involved all the power in one person. The Office of the Special Counsel has set up the exact same way.

And again, this has been in dispute really, really since the dawn of the republic. You can go back and read the Federalist Papers, and they -- they talked about how much authority should the President have to execute laws. Could Congress tamper with that? So this is really a long-term constitutional debate, and it's appropriate to go to the Supreme Court.

BERMAN: It did. It -- it shifted largely, or most quickly, I would say, over the last few years. But it has been something that's been discussed for some time. Jeffrey Toobin, Brad Todd, Ashley Etienne, thank you all so much.

We have breaking news tonight from Russia. The Associated Press reports that authorities there have released 28-year-old American, Kalob Byers, who was detained earlier this month at the Moscow airport after authorities said they found cannabis-laced marmalade in his luggage. The release comes as talks are set to begin in Saudi Arabia between senior Russian and American officials to focus a possible deal to end the war between Russia and Ukraine.

Notably absent, though, from this discussion, any representative from Ukraine. CNN's chief global affairs correspondent, Matthew Chance, joins us now live from Riyadh. Matthew, you spoke with a key person on the Russian side. What did he tell you?

MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN CHIEF GLOBAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, that -- that -- that's right, John. Look, I mean, the fact that 28-year-old American citizen has been released so quickly in Russia gives you an indication of how warm the relationship has become in such a rapid period of time. There are going to be historic talks between the United States and Russia starting here tomorrow as a way of bringing to an end the war in Ukraine.

You've got the U.S. delegates on one side, Russians on the other, including this guy called Kirill Dmitriev. He's the head of the Russian Sovereign Wealth Fund. His big emphasis is economic cooperation. And I think it gives us an indication, the fact that he's included in the Russian negotiating team, about what the Russians want out of this. They want those sanctions lifted. They want their economy boosted. Take a listen to what Kirill Dmitriev told me earlier tonight.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHANCE: You've had a long-standing relationship with members of the Trump team in the first administration and in this one as well. Have you been meeting already with Trump delegation members here in Riyadh?

KIRILL DMITRIEV, HEAD OF RUSSIA'S SOVEREIGN WEALTH FUND: Well, yes, we've had some meetings with Trump team members. And all I can say is that they're great problem solvers. And I think President Trump is a great problem solver. And also, his team is a team of great problem solvers.

CHANCE: What has that team promised you here? Have you -- have they given you an indication about what they're going to give you?

DMITRIEV: No, I think the promise is let's have dialogue. Let's figure out the best solution for our countries, for other countries, for the global community.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHANCE: Well, John, there you have it, great problem solvers, full of praise for the -- for the Trump administration and the Trump team, also saying they want the best solution for them and for the rest of the world. But of course, these meetings are controversial because of the people who aren't here. The Ukrainians aren't here. The Europeans aren't here.

And there's a lot of skepticism from outside this little U.S.-Russian bubble as to what kind of reality, new reality, these talks may produce. John, back to you.

BERMAN: There seems to be an attitude among the Russians that flattery gets you everywhere. Matthew, what is the -- the -- the goal here, the immediate goal for the Kremlin in these talks?

CHANCE: Well, I -- I think it's -- it's certainly true that three years ago when Russia invaded in its full scale way Ukraine, it didn't think it was going to go this far. It's caused enormous damage to the country's economy. There's been enormous bloodshed and loss of life. They certainly want an end to that.

But they're also getting a lot by just taking part in this process. You know, Putin for a long time has wanted to be back on the international stage and -- and he certainly got that by, you know, with this engagement with the United States, John. BERMAN: Right. Matthew Chance for us in Riyadh, extraordinary conversation you had there tonight.

Up next, 500 days, that's how long American-Israel dual citizen, Edan Alexander, has been held hostage by Hamas. Tonight, hear from his parents who are hopeful the ceasefire will continue so he can return home.

And serious health concerns tonight for 88-year-old Pope Francis, why doctors are calling it a, quote, complex clinical picture.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:53:58]

BERMAN: So in Israel today, family members of Israeli hostages being held in Gaza gathered to mark 500 days since the October 7th massacre and calling for President Trump to help assure the release of all the hostages as soon as possible.

Two of the many people hoping this latest ceasefire holds are Adi and Yael Alexander. They are the parents of 21-year-old, Edan Alexander, an Israeli-American soldier with the IDF who was born in Tel Aviv, raised in New Jersey. I spoke with Edan's parents, Yael and Adi, earlier. This is part of our conversation.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BERMAN: Edan is -- is the last Israeli-American hostage in Gaza thought to be alive. So what's your message to the Trump administration tonight?

ADI ALEXANDER, FATHER OF HOSTAGE EDAN ALEXANDER BEING HELD IN GAZA: Just push forward for the second phase. I mean, Edan is not enlisted for the first phase. We have to push forward for the second phase. Maybe we have to extend the first phase. And we have to get them all out, not any tips and drips, like a bunch of them out. I know it's being discussed for the -- the Saturday release to get more hostages out, but that's the ultimate wish.

[20:55:02]

BERMAN: And Yael, I believe you spoke in Hostage Square. You're in Tel Aviv. You spoke there today. How confident are you that this ceasefire will last beyond March 1st?

YAEL ALEXANDER, MOTHER OF HOSTAGE EDAN ALEXANDER BEING HELD IN GAZA: I really don't know how to answer this question. I'm just hoping that they -- they like continue with the ceasefire and release more hostages. Like, there was -- on the news today, they're going to release four bodies on Thursday. And let's hope what's going on on Saturday release. That's why I'm here, you know, I felt that I have to be here in Israel on this time. And I think it's really important to be with everyone and also to speak at the Hostage Square.

BERMAN: Adi, again, it's been 500 days. And I think it's important to remind every one of the people who are still being held captive. So can you just tell us about Edan, what kind of -- what kind of person he is?

A. ALEXANDER: He's a great all-American kid, Jersey -- Jersey guy, you know, graduated from the high school. And it's -- it's really frustrating on the year -- gap year that he decided to take. He enlisted himself to IDF and found himself on that terrible October morning at the Gaza border. And here we are 500 days after at least we're in the middle of the ceasefire, which is encouraging.

BERMAN: What will you do when you see him again?

A. ALEXANDER: Just a huge hug, you know, so many questions to ask about this particular day on about what happened on October 7th on that particular morning. And just hoping for him to say back to us that it was OK after all. I'm OK.

BERMAN: Well, we all look forward to that moment when you can give him that hug. Adi, Yael, thank you so much for being with us.

Y. ALEXANDER: Thank you for having us.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BERMAN: So tonight, new and serious concerns about the health of Pope Francis. Vatican officials say the ailing 88-year-old pontiff, who's been hospitalized in Rome since Friday, is suffering from a respiratory tract infection and that his course of treatment is being changed. The Pope had part of one lung removed when he was a child suffering from pneumonia.

He was taken to the hospital last week for what was believed to be bronchitis. But tonight, that diagnosis has changed. CNN Vatican correspondent Christopher Lamb joins us from Rome with more.

Christopher, what is the latest on the pope's condition?

CHRISTOPHER LAMB, CNN VATICAN CORRESPONDENT: Well, John, the Vatican say the pope is without fever, that his condition is stable. But clearly he is dealing with a complex respiratory tract infection that is going to require a long hospital stay or a longer stay than was initially thought. The Vatican also said that the Pope has been doing some work reading texts.

And we also know that the Pope has been in touch with the Catholic parish in Gaza that he regularly calls. But we don't know how long the Pope is going to be staying in hospital. That all depends on how he responds to the treatment, which has been modified on two occasions so far since he was hospitalized on Friday.

BERMAN: The Pope has had some health challenges before, but based on what you're hearing from Vatican officials, is this the most serious health challenge he's had since he assumed the papacy ascended in -- in 2013?

LAMB: Yes, I think it is, because in the past, his hospitalizations were either for operations or when he was hospitalized for bronchitis in 2023, it was a shorter stay. The Pope has also never been diagnosed with this polymicrobial infection, which is a complex infection involving different factors, viral and possibly bacterial. We don't know exactly from the Vatican. They haven't made that clear.

It's also serious because the Pope is 88 years old and he has, for a number of days before his hospitalization, been struggling to speak. And -- and he has also had a couple of falls. His mobility is -- is very poor. He uses a wheelchair. So within the wider picture, this hospitalization does certainly pose, I think, the most serious health crisis or health challenge for the Pope.

BERMAN: You know, as fate would have it, you had an audience with the pope just last week. How did he seem to you?

LAMB: Well, that's right. I saw him just before he was hospitalized and it was clear then that he was really having difficulty speaking because of the breathing difficulties, he didn't seem to have the lung capacity to talk for long periods of time. He did, however, seem very mentally alert. And I think that's what the Vatican is trying to communicate through its statements that the Pope is still alert mentally, but it's physically where the problems arise for Francis.

BERMAN: All right. Well, we will wait to hear more information from the Vatican. Christopher Lamb, thank you so much.

LAMB: Thank you.

BERMAN: All right. The news continues. The Source with Kaitlan Collins starts now.