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Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees
Trump Hosts France's Macron At Crucial Moment For Ukraine; Interview With Senator Mark Kelly (D-AZ); MAGA Podcaster Dan Bongino Tapped To Be Next FBI Deputy Director; Former Proud Boys Leader Taunts Officers Who Protected; Political Conference In D.C. Interrupted By Death Threats Against Speakers Critical Of Trump; Colorado Trump Voters On The President's Tumultuous New Term; Clint Hill, Secret Service Agent Who Jumped Onto Limo After JFK Was Shot, Dies At 93. Aired 8-9p ET
Aired February 24, 2025 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: You saw the -- you saw the --
NEIL DEGRASSE TYSON, ASTROPHYSICIST: Oh, yes, as a child --
BURNETT: The lack of culture.
TYSON: I knew this and -- but it was more than that. Everyone was wearing like crew cuts at a time when the Broadway musical hair was number one.
ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: Right.
TYSON: So, there was some mismatches between who we were sending in space and what culture was doing. I still valued that we were going to space but I didn't feel like I was a part of that -- and so I always viewed that as a way to encourage agencies to look in places you hadn't looked before for talent that you've been missing.
And so, if we're going to stop that and you think every person who's the right or correct for a job is White male, I don't know what that means and to fire a four-star Air Force General with an advanced degree in Aerospace Engineering, replace him with someone who's not a general or at least a three-star general, he will be the first three- star general as head of the Joint Chiefs-of-Staff ever. That seems like a different form of DEI. It's like you're favoring someone else who's not even qualified.
BURNETT: All right, Neil, well, thank you very much. And thanks so much to all of you. AC360 starts now.
[20:01:22]
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, "ANDERSON COOPER: 360": Tonight on 360, three years into Russia's invasion of Ukraine, the United States is taking Russia's side at the UN and making our European allies nervous.
Also tonight, a star podcaster in the MAGA movement is now the number two man at the FBI, who he is and what it might mean for Americas premier law enforcement agency. And later, the one-time leader of the so-called "Proud Boys," pardoned from his 22-year prison sentence, now gets into a new confrontation with a former police officer from January 6th.
Thanks for joining us. It is a grim anniversary tonight. Three years ago today, Russian forces on Vladimir Putin's orders invaded Ukraine. An operation that Putin reportedly expected would take just a few days. He was wrong.
Ukrainian forces fought back hard and with American and European countries help, they've been able to continue fighting back. But that American support is now in jeopardy and is putting Americas historic, nearly 80-year relationship with Europe under serious strain.
That was the backdrop, and perhaps even the stakes for today's White House visit by France's President Emmanuel Macron, and will certainly be the same when British Prime Minister Keir Starmer arrives Thursday.
Perhaps the most striking way of viewing those stakes is through the words of their counterpart, the man who is likely to be Germany's next Chancellor, Friedrich Merz.
Speaking yesterday, Merz said something remarkable given Germany's status as both a frontline member of and founding reason for the Atlantic Alliance with Europe.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FRIEDRICH MERZ, CHRISTIAN DEMOCRATIC UNION PARTY LEADER: (through translator): My absolute priority will be to strengthen Europe as quickly as possible so that step by step we can really achieve independence from the United States.
But at the very least, after Donald Trump's statements last week, it is clear that the Americans, at least this part of the Americans in this administration, are largely indifferent to the fate of Europe.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: That's a soon to be German chancellor saying that his first priority is to, "achieve independence from the U.S." and citing the presidents statements as the reason, like calling Ukraine's president a dictator, which he's not, but refusing to say the same about Vladimir Putin.
Not last week and not today, the White House with President Macron sitting next to him.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: You called Zelenskyy a dictator, would you use the same words regarding Putin?
DONALD TRUMP (R) PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: I don't use those words lightly. I think that we are going to see how it all works out. Let's see what happens. I think we have a chance of a really good settlement between various countries. And, you know, you're talking about Europe and you're talking about Ukraine as part of that whole situation. The other side has a lot of a lot of support also.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Well, he says he does not use the word dictator lightly, which suggests that he truly thinks Zelenskyy is a dictator and Vladimir Putin is not. He's also blamed the invasion somehow on President Zelenskyy, saying, "You should have never started it. You could have made a deal."
He's since backed away from that, but only just far enough to leave many of his top advisers over the weekend struggling with non-answers like these on Russia's act of aggression three years ago and all the atrocities that followed.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARIA BARTIROMO, FOX BUSINESS NETWORK HOST, MORNINGS WITH MARIA": Can you acknowledge that Russia is the aggressor here?
MICHAEL WALTZ, WHITE HOUSE NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: Well, you know what? Who would you rather have and go toe to toe with the likes of Vladimir Putin, Kim Jong-un, Xi or anyone else? Joe Biden or Donald Trump? He's the dealmaker-in-chief. He's the commander-in-chief and its only because of his strength that were even in this position.
SHANNON BREAM, FOX NEWS CHANNEL ANCHOR: But fair to say, Russia attacked unprovoked into Ukraine three years ago tomorrow.
PETE HEGSETH, U.S. SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: Fair to say is a very complicated situation.
STEVE WITKOFF, MIDDLE EAST ENVOY: The war didn't need to happen. It was provoked. It doesn't necessarily mean it was provoked by the Russians.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Not by the Russians, then by whom? Now, keeping them honest, though, it wasn't always so muddy. Just a few months ago, during the campaign, then candidate Trump had no trouble blaming Russia, as long as he could also blame his political rivals, too.
[20:05:12]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Russia, took land under Bush, under Obama and under Biden. They're going for the whole ball of wax. The only one they didn't take anything from was under Trump.
(END VIDEO CLIP) COOPER: Well, that was last September before the president spoke with Vladimir Putin and began planning peace talks about Ukraine without Ukrainians actually at the table. And before he became enamored with the deal, now apparently being finalized, for taking Ukraine's mineral wealth in exchange for talk of future investment but not security guarantees.
And it's not just the president and his advisers who won't say that Russia is the aggressor. Now, it's the United States at the U.N. The U.S. refused to support a General Assembly Resolution marking three years of the war, which condemn Russia as an aggressor.
The U.S. sided with Russia on this by the way, you want to know who else sided with Russia and the U.S. now? Hungary, Haiti, Israel, Palau and the Marshall Islands, Burkina Faso, Burundi, The Central African Republic, Equatorial Guinea, Niger, Sudan, Belarus, North Korea, Syria, Eritrea, Mali and Nicaragua. That's who sided with the new U.S. position.
And just for reference, the last time the U.N. General Assembly weighed in on this back on the first anniversary in 2023, the Resolution also condemned Russian aggression, and the U.S. supported it. So this is a sea change and our closest allies obviously recognize that certainly has significance and resonance to President Macron's visit to the White House today.
We have two correspondents starting us off, Kaitlan Collins in Washington, Matthew Chance in Moscow. First, Kaitlan, who was at the White House today. How does the White House think this meeting with Macron went today?
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR AND CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, it's a remarkable moment to just to just watch and witness, especially given the French president and President Trump have known each other for years. Obviously, he was in office the last time Trump was also in office, and he hosted him for a state dinner.
We've seen them have, you know, these difficult moments, extended handshakes that seem to go on forever. But, Anderson, to see the two of them inside the Oval Office today, in those moments where they were saying two different things in terms of the viewpoint of Russia in this war, what the next steps look like for these negotiations was remarkable.
But there was one point where the President was reiterating something he says repeatedly, which is that Europe is being paid back for the aid that they have provided to Ukraine while the United States is not, which he's referring to the Russian assets that have been frozen since the war started three years ago, when the French President cut him off and corrected him. Listen to that moment.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Europe is loaning the money to Ukraine. They get their money back. EMMANUEL MACRON, PRESIDENT OF FRANCE: No, in fact, to be to be frank, we paid we paid 60 percent of the total effort. And it was -- through, like the U.S. loans, guaranteed grants and we provided real money, to be clear.
TRUMP: If you believe that, it's okay with me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: I think that moment really sums up the entire visit that we saw happening at the White House today, where the French President was kind of shifting in between these more jovial moments, chummy moments with Trump, where he was calling him Donald at times during the press conference that they had later on, but also taking those instances to say Russia is the aggressor.
Here's the pay structure. We're not actually getting paid back for the money that we spent or the aid that we directed to Ukraine since this war has started, which has been a chief complaint of President Trump's ever since he's taken office, he feels that the United States has been unfairly treated here.
But you could just see the discrepancies in how they view this, no matter how, you know, nice they were or how they talked about it, it was very clear that they had two different messages, starkly different messages.
COOPER: Also, I mean, this U.N., you know, refusing to back this U.N. Resolution in the General Assembly calling Russia the aggressor. I mean, it would be one thing if the argument was, well, look, it's just not a good time to use that kind of verbiage when you're negotiating a peace deal. But this President clearly believes they are not the aggressor here. Certainly, that's the line he's taking.
COLLINS: Well, he's declined to say so. And I've talked to some officials who say that's a negotiating tactic, and that's why he has not said it publicly. But I think the other language you could also look at that he has used is the word dictator, which he said today he doesn't use lightly.
But he did freely call Zelenskyy a dictator last week without elections, even though he was democratically elected, referring to the fact that Ukraine did not hold its election last year because it is under martial law, because Russia invaded. But he was not going to use that word to, to describe the other person who was at the negotiating table here, which is President Putin.
And so, it is a remarkable moment where Trump was also asked about whether the United States would help rebuild Ukraine. The President has talked at length about how destroyed Ukraine has been without ever really mentioning that it was Russia that has done the destroying there and bombed the buildings, and is the reason for that.
The President said no, essentially, that he felt that the United States has done enough when it comes to aid to Ukraine. And so, what was clear as I was in that press conference today was that President Macron was trying to use his moments there to say, this is Russia's fault. Russia needs to be the person in the country that we are looking at when we're putting responsibility and blame on someone and trying to communicate that message to Trump by appealing to him and saying, this is what would be a weak agreement, this is what would be a strong agreement and was at one point invoked their predecessors in 2014 and said, you know, they thought that they had an agreement and Putin obviously bulldozed right through that and illegally annexed Crimea. That's why security guarantees are so important here.
And the French President did call it a turning point with that regard today. The question is, of course, how that holds and what that looks like. And there's another world leader I should note coming to Washington this week, one who has never met with Donald Trump since he's been in the White House. He's met with him previously. It's the British Prime Minister Keir Starmer.
[20:10:54]
COOPER: Yes, Kaitlan Collins, thanks very much. We'll see you at the top of the next hour, "The Source".
I do want to take a couple of minutes now and just remind us all of what happened in Ukraine three years ago tonight. We asked CNN's Matthew Chance to look back.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Three years into this bloodshed and the frontlines remain hellish and brutal. There may be talk of peace -- but every day in the war zone, the ultimate sacrifice is being paid.
Across Russia, cemeteries are now burgeoning with fresh graves. The grim reality of the Ukrainian meat grinder can no longer be hidden or denied.
(VIKTOR, HEAD OF LOCAL VETERAN'S ORGANIZATION speaking in foreign language.)
CHANCE (voice over): "This monument was put up so people would know there is a war going on," says Viktor, the head of a local veterans organization. "It's not just some kind of operation," he says, "People are dying."
It wasn't meant to be this way.
CHANCE (on camera): These are Russian forces. I can tell they are Russians, I have spoken to them already.
CHANCE (voice over): Back in 2022, as the full scale invasion began, CNN encountered Russian troops sent on what became a suicide mission to capture the Ukrainian capital.
The Kremlin still calls its special military operation was meant to be over in a few days.
Instead, Russian troops were forced to withdraw, leaving behind them a trail of devastation, and in places like Bucha, on the outskirts of Kyiv, allegations of human rights abuses too, all denied by the Kremlin.
Now, President Putin is still pinning medals on veterans before toasting their fallen comrades at the tomb of The Unknown Soldier.
(VLADIMIR PUTIN speaking in foreign language.)
CHANCE (voice over): "How many unknown soldiers there have been? No one even knows," Putin says. "But thanks to their efforts, courage and extreme hard work at the front, we have Russia today," he adds.
And, after three years of fighting, Russia also has the Ukrainian territories it's captured and occupied like the ruins of Pisky and countless others, where former residents are now returning to their destroyed homes and trying to claim compensation from the Russian authorities now in charge.
(YEKATERINA, PISKY RESIDENT speaking in foreign language)
CHANCE (voice over): "I don't think there will ever be a peace agreement," Yekaterina says. "How can they agree on who will fix all of this?" She asks.
CHANCE (voice over): Three years on and there are doubts buildings or lives can ever be rebuilt.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Matthew Chance joins us now from Moscow. We, talked earlier about the abrupt change from the U.S. and its approach to Russia. What's the reaction to this shift been like on the Russian side?
CHANCE: Well, I mean, it's a good question. I think it's fair to say they stopped short of cracking open the bottles of champagne, which is what many Russians did when President Trump was elected in 2016. But there's certainly a lot of, well, positivity around it, and there's good reason to be because they're on the brink, it seems, of a settlement of the conflict that could be in Russia's favor.
Today, President Trump was talking about the possibility of business deals being done with Russia. That's crucial for a country that has been weighed down and damaged so severely by years of sanctions that were imposed on Moscow, largely because of its full scale invasion of Ukraine.
And then there are other sort of victories as well that have come so quickly. A seat at the top table, Russia is a much smaller power than Russia economically, but it's been given equal status with Washington and is speaking to U.S. officials on a face-to-face basis.
And then there's that issue of western unity. It's been a long standing objective of the Kremlin that predates the Ukraine war to sort of see western institutions damaged and that is unfolding before the Kremlin's eyes. And so, you know, from the Kremlin point of view, it's been a very positive month since President Trump took power.
[20:15:24]
COOPER: Matthew Chance, thank you very much from Moscow.
Joining us now is Arizona Democratic Senator Mark Kelly, who sits on both the Senate Armed Services and Intelligence Committees.
Senator, what is your reaction to where the U.S. stands tonight on this war, which is obviously tougher on Ukraine than on Russia?
SEN. MARK KELLY (D-AZ): Yes, Anderson, it's shocking, you know, that after 80 years, in a few days, Donald Trump just blew up the western alliance, I mean, completely and you have the Secretary of Defense on T.V. over this weekend talking about how this is a complicated situation. It's not complicated. It's very clear who the aggressor is. It's clear who the war criminal is.
And this vote today within the U.N., where the United States of America is siding with the North Koreans and with Russia and Belarus? I mean, I -- you know, even after this, you know, first month of this administration, I'm still kind of shocked of what happened over the last, you know, several days. And make no mistake, Anderson, this makes our country look weak and we are less safe because of it.
COOPER: By the way, a number of the West African countries that I named who actually supported this resolution, you know, refused to go along with this resolution as well. They have like Russian Wagner Forces in their country. They kicked out U.S. and French forces from those countries.
President Trump won't call Putin a dictator. He's not retracting his use of that word to describe Zelenskyy. What message does that send?
KELLY: Well, I think it sends a message that Donald Trump has aligned himself with Russia and not with our allies. We've had these allies since World War II. And it's the United States that is the anchor of this alliance and Donald Trump is abandoning that.
And that's why our allies are incredibly concerned. I was, you know, on the phone with the folks that were at the Munich Security Conference here last weekend.
I did not have the opportunity to attend. But, you know, the feedback I'm getting is that it was embarrassing. Our SecDef shows up clearly does not know what he's talking about. They're in a negotiation. Right at the start of the negotiation they give up the two biggest negotiating points -- NATO membership and Ukrainian land.
I mean, Anderson, anybody who knows. I mean, I thought the president was supposed to be good at making a deal. This is like the art of the bad deal.
COOPER: And then they tried to walk that back, like the next day, a couple of Republicans on Capitol Hill, and then the President kind of doubled down on the NATO stuff and no U.S. troops.
KELLY: Yes, I think he knows where he wants to be. He wants to be aligned with Putin. He seems to be drawn to dictators. And this is dangerous for our country and it just makes us look incredibly weak.
COOPER: Do you think it makes China, for example, less fearful of the U.S.? Or, you know, potential invasion of Taiwan, less likely that the U.S. would retaliate?
KELLY: Yes, we talk about this a lot. I said on the Armed Services and the Intelligence Committees in the Senate, I think China's watching very closely. You may have noticed they didn't vote with Russia and North Korea, they abstained.
COOPER: They abstained, yes.
KELLY: Yes, they abstained in this vote. So, even I guess to some extent maybe they get it. It's obvious to them who the aggressor is that Ukraine was violently attacked and now suddenly it's not the position of the United States of America, at least not the White House.
I'll tell you, it is with my Republican colleagues here. I mean, they -- most of them, not all of them, but most of them share, you know, my views on this. Putin is a criminal. He's a dictator. He attacked Ukraine. He has needlessly and senselessly killed thousands and thousands of women and children and old people. And his troops are dying by -- I mean upwards of possibly 800,000, you know, soldiers.
I mean, this is a disaster, and it's a disaster for our own safety and our National Security. If we get into the habit of aligning with violent dictators who, you know, were not elected into office, people like Vladimir Putin. I mean, it has put us in a, you know, situation that we haven't been in nearly a century.
COOPER: On another subject, I recently spoke to two American astronauts, Suni Williams and Butch Wilmore. They're in the International Space Station. They've been there longer, obviously, than expected. They are expected to finally come home next month.
I asked them about a claim from President Trump and others that they were stranded in space for political reasons by the Biden administration. Here's what they said.
[20:20:10]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BUTCH WILMORE, NASA ASTRONAUT: That is a fair question and I tell you what, Anderson, I understand why people would think that. I mean, that's been the rhetoric, that's been the narrative from day one -- stranded, abandoned, stuck and I get it. We both get it.
But that is, again, not what our human space flight program is about. We don't feel abandoned. We don't feel stuck. We don't feel stranded. I understand why others may think that. We've come prepared. We've come committed. That is what your human space flight program is. It prepares for any and all contingencies that we can conceive of, and we prepare for those.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Now, as you know, in recent days, Elon Musk repeated the claim the astronauts were stranded up there for political reasons, then attacked a number of astronauts who corrected him on social media and referred to you as a Dem donor shill.
You posted in return, "Hey, @Elon Musk, when you finally get the nerve to climb into a rocket ship, come talk to the three of us."
You once served on an independent safety advisory panel for a SpaceX years ago. Why do you think Musk is saying this?
KELLY: I have no idea. Their ride home has been there since September. It's a Dragon capsule. It's a SpaceX spaceship. It's sitting on the Space Station. It's been there for months. That's the way they're going to get home. That's the way they're going to get home a month from now.
I don't know why he's doing this. It's really kind of -- the whole thing is kind of ridiculous because it puts Suni and Butch, who I've known for over 30 years, each of them, even before we were astronauts together, puts them in the middle of this political fight.
They need to be focused on their on their mission. I don't know why he's doing this and then he drags me into it. I will say, though, if he's ready to go up into space at any time, I am happy to go with him. I know where the Space Station is, how to get there. I'll be happy to join him on that mission.
COOPER: All right, Senator Kelly, appreciate it. Thanks very much.
KELLY: Thank you.
COOPER: Coming up next, meet the new FBI Deputy Director. He's a former Secret Service agent who became a podcasting star by what he calls "owning the libs" and later, when the leader of the or former leader of the so-called "Proud Boys" was trying to get a reduced sentence in front of a judge, he called the police at the Capitol on January 6th heroes.
Now, that he's pardoned, he's back to taunting them.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:26:14]
COOPER: Yet another prominent MAGA media personality has been tapped for top role in the Trump administration. This time, it is podcaster and ex-Secret Service agent Dan Bongino. The president announced in a social media post late last night that, "Great news for law enforcement and American justice. Dan Bongino, a man of incredible love and passion for our country, has just been named the next Deputy Director of the FBI by the man who will be the best ever Director Kash Patel."
Now, we should point out the Deputy Director oversees the day-to-day operations of the Bureau, and typically, the role is held by career federal agents, which Bongino isn't. A decade or so ago Mr. Bongino appeared on this program a number of times, giving thoughtful and serious commentary on law enforcement matters. This was him in 2014.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAN BONGINO, "THE DAN BONGINO SHOW" HOST AND FORMER SECRET SERVICE AGENT: Police Departments in general, Anderson, there is a crisis in policing and it's a crisis in training, despite what some of the other guests have said.
I was there, I went through the police academy three times, twice with the NYPD and once with the Secret Service. There is a crisis in training. It is not taken seriously in America.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Well, he was last on this program in March of 2016. In the years since, he's grown into an outspoken member of the right wing media sphere and a big supporter of the president.
He often appeared on Fox, attacking the Mueller investigation during the first Trump administration, and adopted the philosophy that he described as being centered around, "owning the libs."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BONGINO: Own the libs at every opportunity -- online, at the election booth, in your activism. Don't let them up.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Mr. Bongino gained a lot of traction during COVID.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BONGINO: This vaccine never had anything to do with science at all. Never had anything to do with COVID, either. Yes, it's a COVID vaccine. It did not prevent the spread of COVID.
If masks work, why aren't they working? Because the left doesn't care if they work.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: President Trump has certainly approved of his questioning the legitimacy of the 2020 election.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BONGINO: Donald Trump was calling out basically a flawed election for what it was, a flawed election. As the chief executive of the United States, it's his job to question an election if he believes there was corruption. That's his actual job, to go and enforce the law as the President and chief executive.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: When the FBI searched the President's home in Mar-a-Lago for classified documents in 2022, Bongino went on Fox to condemn the very agency he is now being tasked to help run.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BONGINO: Folks, the FBI is lost. It's broken, irredeemably corrupt at this point. The inexcusable raid on President Trump's home was the straw that broke the camel's back.
Fire anyone involved in the raid. I don't want to hear any more rank and file stuff.
I was the rank and file. I saw stuff I didn't like, I left. It's not hard. You swore an oath to the Constitution. That matters. If you played any role in this raid, you should be gone.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: But he is now the Deputy Director of the FBI.
Joining me now is someone who once held that role. CNN senior law enforcement analyst, Andrew McCabe. So, first of all, what's your reaction to this appointment?
ANDREW MCCABE, CNN SENIOR LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: You know, I have great concerns for the FBI and for its people. You know, you've taken someone who knows nothing about the organization, has no experience with the FBI and put him in the highest position an agent can possibly occupy.
He will be responsible on a day-to-day basis for all of the FBI's Intelligence collection and investigative authority.
People will walk into his office one after another, after another, every single day, and confront him with some of the most confounding problems in unbelievably important investigations, issues in which the safety of our country is hanging in the balance, and they're going to expect him to look back at them, make quick decisions based on the law, based on the facts, not on his politics.
And so, I just -- I'm scratching my head as to how he's going to be able to do that.
There's not a single Deputy Director in the history of the 117-year history of the organization who didn't have that role until they had already spent an entire career in the FBI, understanding its people, its authority, its they its capabilities and its mistakes, the places where you have to be really careful to keep the wheels on the road. So, I think he's in for a real challenge.
COOPER: Why do you think that is so important? Having a lifetime in FBI law enforcement in order to be the essentially the number two person there?
MCCABE: Yes, Anderson, you know, it's not just being -- having a lifetime career in law enforcement, but specifically a career in the FBI. It's an enormous organization, 38,000 people, 12,000 agents. The mission spans from National Security and counterintelligence to counterterrorism, all the way to every possible criminal violation in the Federal Code in order to make those lightning fast decisions on thousands of cases whenever you may be asked.
[20:31:05]
You have got to know what the organization can do, what its people are capable of, and the sort of things that lead its people into problems and making mistakes and holding people accountable. So thinking that you could just fall into that role and do it competently without any of that knowledge or understanding or experience, it's confounding.
COOPER: So Kash Patel, who, you know, previously to getting the job had talked about turning the head FBI headquarters into museum to the deep state and every all the thousands of people work there, sending them out to field offices. He's not doing that, but he has talked about now already, I think, sending about 1,000 people to field offices and I think some 500 other support people. I'm not exactly clear on the breakdown.
What do you make of that move? Because other FBI directors have tried to and talked about lessening the bureaucracy in Washington. Or I don't know if -- yes.
MCCABE: Yes, many directors have focused on that. It's a -- it is a legitimate goal if you come to the job with a vision for reducing that bureaucracy and gaining greater efficiency. You know, but the way to do that is to understand what work is being done, what's not being done, where those opportunities for increased efficiency maybe.
What parts of the field offices where you need additional people that -- to bolster those missions to walk in on day one and just write a check that basically says 1,500 of you are gone, you know, 1,000 to field offices and 500 to Huntsville, Alabama. It's a -- that can't be anything other than a very blunt instrument, and it runs the risk of doing damage to some critical missions that Americans count on.
COOPER: Andrew McCabe, appreciate it. Thank you.
Coming up next, the former leader of a group that helped spark the January 6 violence was back in D.C. this weekend. He confronted two police officers who were attacked and injured that day, called him cowards. I'll speak to one, Michael Fanone, when we return.
Also, John King speaks to Trump voters in the swing district about whether he'd still earned their vote today.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:37:04]
COOPER: When Enrique Tarrio was in court in front of a judge who was about to sentence him, the man who had been national chairman of the far-right Proud Boys called January 6 a national embarrassment and apologized to police who defended the Capitol.
Tarrio was sentenced to 22 years in prison for seditious conspiracy and other charges. But that was a little less than two years ago. He's now out of prison, pardoned by President Trump and eager, it seems, to get back into the limelight.
Tarrio was in D.C. Friday where he was arrested near the Capitol and briefly detained by police for a simple assault after allegedly swiping at a protester. Then on Saturday, he and others turned up at a conference for conservatives opposed to President Trump, taunting former police officers Michael Fanone and Harry Dunn, two of those officers, he once told a judge, were heroes.
(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)
ENRIQUE TARRIO, LEADER OF PROUD BOYS: Now you don't even want to look in my eyes. You fucking coward. You were a coward that day. You were a coward after.
MICHAEL FANONE, FORMER DC POLICE OFFICER: You're a traitor to this country. You're a traitor to this country. You're a fucking traitor to this country.
TARRIO: That's why they fired your ass and that's why your own people turned on you, you piece of shit.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You're an asshole. Stop it. Stop it, traitor.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Time to go. Get him out of there. Get him out. Get him out.
(END VIDEOCLIP)
COOPER: Yesterday, the conference was evacuated after an email claiming there were pipe bombs and threatening several of the conference participants, including former officer Fanone, and he joins us in a moment.
But first, our Donie O'Sullivan. It seems like a lot of these folks have been emboldened.
DONIE O'SULLIVAN, CNN SENIOR CORRESPONDENT: Absolutely. And, you know, that footage there that you saw, they basically followed, they were waiting for Michael Fanone and Harry Dunn, the other former D.C. police officer, at the hotel and followed them through, were shouting abuse at them. Look, there was a lot of things happening in D.C. last week, one of them being CPAC, the sort of main conservative conference. There was a bit of debate earlier in the week whether J6ers would be allowed in or not. They very much were.
One -- a different Proud Boy told me when he was -- I asked him how he was being received there, he said we're being treated like gods. These guys are really emboldened. I want to show you just one example, a picture, people will probably remember from January 6th, of a man named Richard Barnett. He had his feet on a desk in Nancy Pelosi's office.
COOPER: Right, of course.
O'SULLIVAN: And that's the guy there. He was around CPAC last week, very much in high spirits and was actually proud of himself. He was signing pictures, giving autographs on -- there he is, there he is now, bald. But he was signing that picture, that iconic picture of, of course, what many people would say was an absolute tragic day for American democracy --
COOPER: Yes.
O'SULLIVAN: -- but celebrating it.
COOPER: All right. Donie O'Sullivan, thanks very much. Appreciate it.
Former D.C. Police Officer Michael Fanone, who was violently attacked and injured on January 6th, joins us now.
Michael, it's good to have you back. Can you -- what do you -- what was your takeaway from that moment, from what happened to you this weekend?
FANONE: Well, I mean, this is one of the tactics that's employed by Enrique Tarrio and members of the Proud Boys, which again, you know, for those of you who don't know, is an extremist, right-wing fascist organization that uses intimidation, tactics and violence, threats of violence, to try to suppress anyone who is in opposition for the MAGA fascist movement.
[20:40:33]
I was speaking at the Principles First Summit. Principles First is a grassroots organization that hosts a annual summit, inviting individuals from a variety of different backgrounds and political ideologies, but who share a common goal in maintaining the democracy in this country.
Like I said, Enrique Tarrio showed up with, you know, Ivan Raiklin and several other individuals that are, you know, members of this organization. And they're really -- what they were there to do was to provoke some type of confrontation with myself, Harry Dunn, Aquilino Gonell, or Daniel Hodges, who are also there speaking for a variety of different reasons.
I think one of them to try to elicit some type of response in which they could use to provide a viral moment --
COOPER: Right.
FANONE: -- that would, you know, raise their profile in social media.
COOPER: Yes.
FANONE: But also to try to provoke some type of incident in which they could pursue, you know, litigation or, you know, sue for libel or some other type of, you know, slander, which their organization, which purports to be an organization that holds masculinity in very, very high regard. You know, I would like to say this, where I'm from, settling a dispute through litigation is the least masculine thing that you can possibly do.
COOPER: It seems like -- I mean, I read Tarrio, what he said when he was before a judge trying not to get a long prison sentence. And he was praising the police officers on January 6th. He called it a national embarrassment what happened that day.
Obviously, you know, that's clearly not what he thought, or that's what he, you know, was just trying to get a lesser sentence. He certainly seems emboldened by this. But a lot of the so-called Proud Boys, they had turned against this guy when they found out that he had, according to his attorneys, his own attorney and others, been a cooperating witness multiple times in other incidences in years past.
FANONE: Yes, that's correct. Enrique Tarrio really is out for himself. I mean, what this ultimately is about for Enrique Tarrio, separate from the Proud Boys, which is, you know, this violent extremist group that models itself after the 1930s and 1940s brown shirts of the neo- Nazi or Nazi movement.
Enrique Tarrio is someone who loves the limelight. He's become this cartoonish character in which he dresses in this ridiculous outfit, and he wears the sunglasses inside and everywhere that he goes. But ultimately, what it's about for Enrique Tarrio is clicks. He wants to generate social media attention so that he can sell proud boys swag and make money.
COOPER: Right.
FANONE: He has, in fact, been rejected by various members of the movement because, in fact, like you said, he was a government informant. He's been a government informant prior to his joining the Proud Boys, and he was a government informant during law enforcement's investigation into these violent extremist groups that participated in the insurrection at the Capitol on January 6th.
COOPER: Michael Fanone, I appreciate talking to you. I wish you the best. Thank you.
FANONE: Thank you.
COOPER: Coming up next, John King has a new All Over the Map report. Trump voters in Colorado shared their reaction to the start of the president's second term and all the action targeting federal workers. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:49:00]
COOPER: Elon Musk of DOGE has another message for federal workers who don't respond to an email they received over the weekend asking them to justify their jobs or lose them. A deadline for that email was at midnight. But earlier today, the Office of Personnel Management said a response was, quote, "not mandatory".
And just before airtime, Musk posted this, quote, "Subject to the discretion of the president, they will be given another chance. Failure to respond a second time will result in termination".
A month into the administration, Trump voters seem to be paying attention to the cuts and the threats. John King tonight has a new All Over the Map report from Colorado.
(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)
JOHN KING, CNN ANCHOR & CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The Spomer Ranch spans more than 100 acres, home to 60 horses and one last bison.
DAVID HAYES, COLORADO VOTER: This little guy down here, his name is Trouble.
KING (voice-over): A bit ornery at times. Yes, Trouble.
HAYES: You know, it's like Trump. I really don't like him as a person. I think he's arrogant, kind of a jerk.
[20:50:01]
KING (voice-over): David Hayes is a funny man.
HAYES: I tried farming for a while and I would rather get run over by a bison, you know.
KING (voice-over): The northern Colorado ranch has been in his family since the 1880s. The White House and Washington are far away.
HAYES: We got like hot dogs.
KING (voice-over): Yes, Hayes wants the government shrunk. But he doesn't see a coherent plan. And he doesn't trust Elon Musk. Doesn't believe what he says. Doesn't want Trump letting Musk poke around Social Security or tax files.
HAYES: I don't know how many people he's fired. And, you know, Musk keeps saying, well, I found $1 billion of waste here. And Social Security, there's hundreds and hundreds of people that are collecting it that are between 100 years old and 150. Can you believe any of that crap?
He can't substantiate it, but you can't believe it.
KING: Right.
HAYES: So that's a trust issue.
KING (voice-over): A blue-collar rural guy in one of the nation's most competitive congressional districts. A three-time Trump voter who calls the president unfocused and arrogant. But Democrats should hold the celebration.
KING: But if you had to do over tomorrow and you had to pick again between Trump and Harris, what would you do?
HAYES: I would still do Trump.
KING: Conservative, independent, is that fair?
ESMERALDA RAMIREZ-RAY, COLORADO VOTER: Very conservative, independent, yes.
KING (voice-over): So would Esmeralda Ramirez-Ray. She smiles when asked about Trump's frenetic first month.
RAMIREZ-RAY: I voted for that. I love it.
KING: What did you vote for?
RAMIREZ-RAY: I voted for a president that was going to put America first. I voted for a president that was going to secure our borders. And I voted for a president that was going to make sure that we were respected throughout the world. And I believe I'm getting that.
KING (voice-over): Greeley is the northern edge of Colorado's 8th, a congressional district that is 40 percent Hispanic and has a significant undocumented population. Ramirez-Ray is a court interpreter for defendants who don't speak English.
She agrees with Trump that some who cross the border illegally are violent criminals. But she wishes he would add that the overwhelming majority are good people.
RAMIREZ-RAY: I was raised as a migrant worker working in the fields. Those are the people that are out there picking their crops. So even though I support Trump, I don't believe that he's the end-all be-all savior of humanity. Nobody is.
TODD WAUFLE, COLORADO VOTER: Now this one, we've had Canadian hoser for a long time before all this stuff came up.
KING: Right.
TODD: All the fights with American and Canadian hockey players and everything.
KING (voice-over): Like Hayes, Todd Waufle says Trump can be arrogant and pompous. But like Ramirez-Ray, he's a fan of the early pace. WAUFLE: I like him going full speed. Let's get things done. Let's find out if the policies work, they don't work. But, yes, this is the baby brewing system. Boil it up there.
KING (voice-over): Waufle started Satire Brewing seven years ago. Business is good and he constantly debates expanding. But a plan to boost sales by adding canning machines is on hold because of Trump tariffs on aluminum.
WAUFLE: When you fly enough, you understand, you know. Buckle your seatbelt, turbulence ahead.
KING (voice-over): Waufle's approach is a trademark of many Trump voters. Accept the things that make you cringe to get the things you want, like a better economy and a stronger border.
WAUFLE: Trump's going to say what he's going to say. And, yes, some of it's going to be exaggerated, some are not going to be true. But at the end of the day, I think you've got, you know, sift through all that. Is he going to get things done? Is he going to get the country moving the right way?
AUSTIN JENKINS, COLORADO VOTER: Let go right in front of your eyes. Just like that.
KING (voice-over): Austin Jenkins voted for lower taxes and less regulation. That would help his small businesses, including this cocktail bar and the Greeley Hatchet House.
JENKINS: He seemed like the lesser of two evils in my opinion.
KING (voice-over): But Jenkins finds the first month unsettling. Not a fan of tariffs or executive orders by the dozens, or Musk popping from agency to agency.
JENKINS: I thought there's supposed to be checks and balances somewhere.
KING: So where do I want to let go, shoulder height?
JENKINS: Right in front of your eyes.
KING: Right from my eyes, OK.
KING (voice-over): Plus, he sees fear in the Latino community. Wishes Trump would find a more compassionate way to improve border security.
JENKINS: I think there's a better way to go about it. I don't know if it's necessarily just force them out.
KING (voice-over): Trump, of course, won't be on the ballot next election. But this district will help decide whether Republicans keep their tiny House majority.
JENKINS: The cost of living is getting crazy here in Colorado. And I hope that they would have some kind of an impact of helping that. KING (voice-over): The new Republican congressman won by just 2,000 votes. His 2026 re-election prospects will likely hinge on Trump's performance. On whether swing voters here see the president as focused on the big issues or veering too far off target.
(END VIDEO TAPE)
COOPER: So John, of all the Trump supporters you spoke with, some had complaints or at least unease about the president's first month back in office. Should the president be concerned?
KING (on-camera): Well, he should listen to them, Anderson, certainly. You do see some evidence today with the Trump administration backing off that Musk email to federal employees as perhaps evidence they are listening.
Look, Trump voters, they understand. There's a price of admission, some of the chaos, some of the other things. But what they most voted for was lower prices and a secure border. That half of the Trump voters we talked to complained about Musk, worried that he has too long of a leash. That's pretty interesting.
Normally people complain about Trump's tone, not so much about what he's doing. So if you're the president, you want to keep an eye on that. That's pretty interesting.
[20:55:02]
Normally people complain about Trump's tone, not so much about what he's doing. So if you're the president, you want to keep an eye on that. But the bigger risk is that, look, Trump's not on the ballot. Two years from now, House Republicans will be and Senate Republicans will be.
The district we were in is one of the most competitive districts in the country. It is very evenly divided. And if swing voters or soft Trump voters think that Trump and Musk and Republicans in Congress are off doing other things like wandering into federal agencies or looking at the Social Security records and not lowering costs and worrying about the border, the Republicans could pay the price.
So we'll keep going back to this district. We're only a month in. I wouldn't shoot up any flares yet if you're the Trump political team.
But when your own voters are starting to complain, you should listen.
COOPER: All right. John King, thanks so much.
KING (on-camera): Thank you.
COOPER: Next, remembering the Secret Service agent who risked his life but could not change history.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: Clint Hill died today at the age of 93. He was the Secret Service agent who risked his life in Dallas almost 62 years ago, jumping onto the limousine carrying President John F. Kennedy and First Lady Jacqueline Kennedy.
Hill never forgave himself for being unable to save the president. He talked to 60 Minutes' Mike Wallace in 1975.
(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)
CLINT HILL, SPECIAL AGENT: This is my fault.
MIKE WALLACE, 60 MINUTES, CBS: Oh. No one has ever suggested that for an instant. All that you did was show great bravery and great presence of mind. What was on the citation that was given you for your work on November 22, 1963 --
HILL: I don't care about that, Mike.
WALLACE: -- extraordinary courage and heroic effort in the face of maximum danger?
HILL: Mike, I don't care about that. If I had reacted just a little bit quicker, I could have, I guess. And I'll live with that to my grave.
(END VIDEOCLIP)
COOPER: That's it for us. The news continues. The Source of Kaitlan Collins starts now.
