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Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees

Judge Grills Trump DOJ Lawyers In Tense Deportations Hearing; Trump Denies "New York Times" Story Says Musk At Pentagon For DOGE Not There For China; Interview With Rep. Gregory Meeks (D-NY); WI Voters Set To Pick New State Supreme Court Justice On April 1; Russia And Ukraine Trade Blame Over Attack On Russian Gas Metering Station; Russia's "Merchant Of Death" Update; Trump, Musk Influencers Targeted In Swatting Incidents. Aired 8-9p ET

Aired March 21, 2025 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: These hearings and Professor Hill's testimony sparked a conversation that started in 1991 and continues to today about the role that gender dynamics play in systems of power -- Erin.

ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: Yes, I mean, it is incredible just watching that footage.

All right, Jake, thank you so much and I hope everyone is looking forward to watching that. Don't miss Jake's all new episode of "United States of Scandal" this Sunday at 9:00 Eastern and Pacific, only on CNN and thanks so much for joining us, AC360 begins right now.

[20:00:29]

JOHN KING, CNN HOST: Tonight on 360 President Trump tries to pass the buck that was responsible for those controversial deportation flights. We're keeping them honest.

Also, why was Elon Musk at the Pentagon today? Well, he wouldn't say. But an eyebrow raising "New York Times" story says the plan was to talk about highly classified China war contingencies. President Trump says that report is wrong. The ranking member of the House Foreign Affairs Committee will join us.

And later, bogus emergency calls known as swatting, this time aimed at conservative social media influencers.

Good evening everyone. I'm John King in tonight for Anderson, it was a tense and combative day in a case that is big in its own right. And just one example of President Trump now testing the limits of his power. More court proceedings today over that flight, taking undocumented migrants out of the United States into a notorious prison in El Salvador.

A federal judge is demanding detailed answers. He believes the White House violated his order forbidding that flight. The White House is fighting back, and tonight President Trump is changing his story about how it all happened. The President weighed in on this case, get this, three times today, most recently as he departed the White House this evening. In those last remarks, the President playing down his role in that deportation order. More on the truth there in just a moment

Remember this case? A week ago, the Trump Administration invoked the Alien Enemies Act to justify deporting hundreds of migrants to El Salvador. A lawsuit challenging that was filed immediately. And last Saturday, a hearing was called by U.S. District Judge James Boasberg. That hearing began at 5:00 P.M., and while that hearing was on a break, two flights of migrants departed Texas bound for Central America.

The hearing then resumed around 6:45 P.M., the judge verbally telling Justice Department lawyers they need to turn around any planes carrying anyone being deported under the Alien Enemies Act. A week of legal and verbal sparring since has raised the prospect of a constitutional crisis. The judge keeps demanding detailed information, keeps questioning Department of Justice attorneys. The President in the middle of this has called for the judge's impeachment. That, of course, led to a swift and rare public rebuke from the Supreme Court, Chief Justice John Roberts. It also led to a series of hearings with Judge Boasberg seeking more information from the Justice Department and not getting, in his view anyway, sufficient responses, which brings us to today.

This morning, the Presidents attacks against the judge continued on Truth Social. This from the President of the United States. "No district judge or any judge can assume the duties of the President of the United States. Only crime and chaos would result. Later this morning, the attacks continued, this time from the Oval Office.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: They're tough people. They're bad people. We don't want them in our country. We can't let a judge say that he wants him. You know, he didn't run for President. He didn't get much more than 80 million votes and we just can't let that happen.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: Just an important point of fact. If you forget your grammar school civics class, the Judiciary is a co-equal branch of the federal government, so the White House, its authority does not come from an election every four years, but it comes instead from adherence to the United States Constitution. All of this from the President was ahead of yet another hearing this afternoon between the federal judge and the Trump Department of Justice, where the judge was grilling DOJ lawyers and clearly unhappy, said, "I will get to the bottom of whether they violated my order. Who ordered this and what the consequences will be."

And that takes us back to President Trump this evening. Asked again about the case, the President gave us a new explanation. No, the buck not stopping with him. He says it was Secretary of State Marco Rubio.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REPORTER: It doesn't sound like this judge, who the DOJ is arguing with today about the deportation flights. He wants to

know why the proclamation was signed in the dark, his words and why people were rushed on to planes?

TRUMP: Because we want to get criminals out of our country, number one. And I don't know when it was signed because I didn't sign it. Other people handled it. But Marco Rubio has done a great job and he wanted him out. And we go along with that. We want to get criminals out of our country.

REPORTER: If there was a flight like tonight with these guys, even though it's still being litigated, if there was a flight tonight full of accused gang members and somebody called and said, Mr. President, I know that this is still being adjudicated, but we can get these guys down to El Salvador right now. Would you say that that's okay?

TRUMP: I would say that I'd have the secretary of state handle it, because I'm not really involved in that. But the concept of getting a bad people murderers, rapists, drug dealers, all of the these are really some bad people out of our country.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[20:05:14]

KING: Well, you heard Marco Rubio's name twice there. Let's keep them honest. Your eyes don't lie. We have the proclamation invoking the Alien Enemies Act from the federal register right there at the bottom. Well, that would be the signature of President Donald Trump.

Joining me with more details today, our CNN chief national affairs correspondent, Jeff Zeleny. Jeff, walk us through what the President said about this Alien Enemies Act and does the White House have any explanation for he says, I don't have much to do with this. That's his signature.

JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: It is his signature and we did find that in the federal registry, which is a handy place when a President is doing so many executive orders. It is, for the record, there. No, the White House tonight is not explaining the discrepancy here with the President saying he did not sign it, but they are standing behind the meaning of it. And the President has been consistent in the sense he thinks that these people are bad guys. In his words, he says it again and again and due process clearly is not a concern of this administration or the President.

However, it was very interesting. I was out on the South Lawn of the White House as the President was saying that, and he invoked Marco Rubio on his own. He wasn't asked about the Secretary of State. He brought him up on his own. I thought that was absolutely fascinating. The President, we've seen a few times trying to pass the buck a little bit.

So, yes, he stands behind the idea of it, but does not want to get sort of caught up in the legality of it. But it is very, very interesting. But how this sort of played out last weekend, the President signed this document on Friday night. No one knew about it. On Saturday. They invoked this late in the day on Saturday, and they announced it as the hearing was going on. And then of course, shortly after, as you said, those planes were taking off. So this all came to a head, of course, because the judges sort of flyspecking all of this.

The timeline of it, the actual reasoning of it and the bottom line is, is this a time of war? The judge is saying the government hasn't proved that yet.

KING: So tell us more about the judge, because you heard the President today three times. He talked about this today. And again, as he has throughout the past week of sparring, questioning whether the judge or any judge has the power to question anything he does, the judge is clearly getting frustrated. Give us more on his demeanor in the court.

ZELENY: Look, our colleagues who were in the courtroom today, said the judge, it was clear he was being, you know, very thorough about this and frustrated with the government lawyers here. He called them intemperate at one point, and our colleagues wrote, the judge's hands were constantly moving during the hearing between putting his glasses on to read and taking them off. And at one point making hand gestures to the government lawyers.

So this is something that the judge clearly is frustrated by "A" the lack of information from the government. He's asked who is on these planes, how do you know that these were all gang members et cetera? But there's a separate question as well of is this the time of war? Should the President have invoked it?

So the whole idea of the President saying he didn't sign it, that didn't come up in the courtroom, that came up on the South Lawn of the White House because the President was trying to distance himself for some strange reason.

He knows that immigration, actually, the court of public opinion is on his side. He always goes back to, I was elected to do this, but not necessarily not follow the letter of the law. So public opinion may be on his side, but the legality may not be. We shall see.

KING: So that Jeff stay with us because that conversation is going to continue. Let's bring into the conversation the former chief judge for the middle district court of Pennsylvania, Johnny Jones, and our CNN anchor and chief legal analyst, Laura Coates.

Judge Jones, I want to start with you. The judge consistently, repeatedly in an exasperated tone, slamming the Justice Department, saying at one point they were using intemperate and disrespectful language. He said that was, "never seen from the United States." Sounds like he's out of patience. What does that tell you?

JOHN E. JONES III, FORMER CHIEF JUDGE U.S. MIDDLE DISTRICT COURT OF PENNSYLVANIA: Well, the first thing I was going to say, John, it's good to be with you, is that maybe the proclamation was signed by an autopen. Who knows? You know, and it's void from the time that it was signed. But seriously, on the question that you asked, this judge has a long fuse in this -- from the standpoint of judicial temperament, that fuse has clearly burned down, and he's ready to go off. He's had enough.

You know, what's happened all week is that the government is playing hide the ball. They're temporizing. They're not answering the questions that he's put forward. They're making disingenuous arguments. And then today, of course, counsel for the government admitted that he did convey what was a verbal order from the judge, conceded that he knew that that was an order, and he conveyed that, and that was that. And the planes didn't turn around.

So, this is an evolving story, and it kind of has the allure of a slow motion car crash as you look at it. But I think there's a further showdown coming. And he means to finish up what he started, which is this inquisition about whether his order was violated.

[20:10:08]

KING: You know this quite well. You're right about the car crash metaphor, and you can see it in the transcripts about the tension the and the distrust between. But this judge also knows this is going to go up to an appellate court and probably make it to the Supreme Court. And so that record becomes critically important. So in that regard, what he says, how he talks about the law, how he asks about the law is absolutely essential. What do you make of his line of questioning as he was questioning the lead Justice Department attorney today?

JONES III: Well, I think he's doing what any good judge would do. John, under the circumstances. You know, the President's position, first of all, the administration is deliberately misrepresenting the role of the Judiciary and trying to, as you alluded to earlier, get up and over this legal debate by saying, well, these are bad people and we should throw them out of the country writing due process completely out of the equation.

So, what the judge is doing is he's faced with the completely novel application of a 200-year old statute. And he's saying it doesn't seem to fit. To me, it's a reach. We're not at war with Venezuela. You haven't tied these gang members to anybody in the government. You know, I don't know who was on the plane. I don't know whether it was justified. Even if you apply the statute the way the government wants to, whether it's justified to take these guys out, you know, again, simply because you say it is. And in the court of public opinion, I realize people say, well, they're bad guys. We want to get them out of here.

But these are due process rights that are enshrined in the constitution of the United States. And I have to say, Judge Boasberg has been a lot more patient than I might have been, you know, with the government this week and giving them till next Tuesday to invoke state secrets, which, quite frankly, if they had that, they should have produced it already.

KING: All right, judge stay with us. Laura Coates, want to bring you to the conversation. I assume you would agree that patience is in part because he's trying to give them a long leash, because he knows this is going to go up and he doesn't want to be accused of short handing the government of the United States on a big, sensitive issue.

LAURA COATES, CNN ANCHOR AND CHIEF LEGAL ANALYST: He wants to build a record.

KING: Right, he wants to build a record. So, you saw the President of United States tonight, after a week of willingly joining the back and forth. He has sort of the Pontius Pilate tonight washing his hands at the White House, not me. What do you make of that? Is that a legal maneuver, or is he trying to protect himself, or is that more of a political maneuver?

COATES: I think it's a little bit of both. Its legal in the sense that he would like it to be perceived that this is a subjective interpretation by someone other than just the President of the United States. He's talking about Marco Rubio, remember the week began talking about that somebody has the authority to deport someone if they are in a category that says that they might pose potential foreign policy consequences.

And so, if all of the authorities subjectively lays in that in that person's hands, why not share some of the burden and the blame? And maybe the credit to that person.

Politically, it's also sound for him to try to do so, because he wants to have the perception that he believes in the three co-equal branches of government. He doesn't have his thumb on the scale, but there's a bit of a facade and a fig leaf in all of this, John, because clearly this is a judge who's asked three categories of reasonable questions.

Number one, what is the authority you're using to remove people from this country? That's a reasonable question. And is it based on what the language of the Alien Enemies Act says, are we in war? Is it a foreign nation or is it a gang? The second category of questions who's actually on the plane? Are they the people you're saying? Or are there people who are in asylum or otherwise? And then finally, number three, did you hear what I said when I said I had an order out because they're in custody? You might very well win in the end, but why not let the process unfold?

Due process does not mean that Trump will lose. It meant I want to understand the answer to my questions.

KING: When the prospect of a constitutional crisis is raised by Trump critics or by legal scholars, the White House says, oh, it's more Trump derangement syndrome. It's radical liberals. It's the fake news. When the Chief Justice issues a rare public statement saying, well, Mr. President, you've crossed the line when you have this judge trying to build a record because he believes they are ignoring his order and not giving him details. Do you see, is this a test? Is it a crisis? Is it a --we still don't know yet.

COATES: It's a test that if he succeeds, America fails. One of the things the judge actually said about this was the idea of, do you realize I'm paraphrasing here that what you're saying will bind other DOJ employees, it will bind the government. It will bind the United States. The reason I say there'd be a failure success thing is because the government attorneys know very well the arguments they make today can be used in other court proceedings to say, well, I thought the government position was this. It can be used to our detriment in some respects. And judges and defense counsel will say, no, this is not consistent what you had in the past.

I remember when I was a prosecutor and I remember saying, I can't have the trial that day, your honor and actually that's my due date. To which they said is the entire government pregnant, Mrs. Coates? That's how fungible they think of the prosecutors, because everything you say binds the next, and you want to have consistency.

In the end, think about this. If you were to go before in any other context and say to a judge, probable cause, just trust me, trust me, this is criminal, they should be in jail. We wouldn't stand for it. This is that.

[20:15:17]

KING: Laura Coates, thank you so much, Judge Jones as well, Jeff Zeleny for coming and stay with us all night because Laura Coates will be here, "Laura Coates Live" tonight 11:00 P.M. Eastern, right here on CNN. More on this, I am sure.

Next on 360, Elon Musk and his unprecedented government access meeting with top military officials at the Pentagon today. What we know about that visit, as the White House tries to deflect conflict of interest questions.

And later, my return to battleground Wisconsin, where once again, Democrats are worried about turnout, especially Black turnout, this time in a race just days away. The latest chapter of my all over the map project ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:20:14]

KING: Elon Musk visited the Pentagon today as the White House worked furiously to deny a detailed "New York Times" account suggesting a top secret China briefing was part of the original agenda.

Now, dust ups about Musk's role in his power are daily, it seems, but this one is bigger. The Pentagon, obviously the home of very sensitive stuff. Democrats see an obvious and giant conflict here. Musk, of course, is the head of DOGE and a senior Trump adviser. But -- big but SpaceX and other musk companies get billions from their DoD contracts.

Now, that's enough to raise eyebrows anyway. Now, add in "The Times" report about today's Musk visit with Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth. The "Times," quoting two unnamed sources, said this meeting would take place in a secure conference room known as the tank, and that it would cover, "The U.S. Military's plan for any war that might break out with China. The President and the Pentagon quickly denied the story. Here's President Trump.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) TRUMP: I called up chief-of-staff and I called up Pete and I said, is there any truth to that? Absolutely not. He's there for DOGE not there for China.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: Now, "The Times" story today says, "the tank visit was called off after the times report," according to a person with knowledge of the matter. The President says it was just DOGE business. A discussion of how to trim Pentagon spending.

Musk and Secretary Hegseth, though, mostly ignored questions. That's a Trump administration trademark combat with the media instead of transparency with the media. When a "New York Times" reporter asked whether they discussed China, Defense Secretary Hegseth responding, "Why would I tell you?"

We know Musk is a lightning rod, and many in Trump's orbit do worry he's causing political pain, even if they like his results. Look at this. A recent "Washington Post" analysis underscoring the unusual nature of Musk getting access to pentagon records.

"The Post" detailed about $7.6 billion in contracts from the Defense Department to Musk's businesses. The report also said that total might actually be much larger. And then there are his ties to China. Here's the President on why he wouldn't want to see top secret military plans. Want Musk to see top secret military plans concerning China.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REPORTER: Why not just show it to Elon?

TRUMP: Because I don't want to show it to anybody. You know, Elon has businesses in China, and he would be susceptible perhaps to that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: Musk's E.V. company, Tesla, operates in China. It is Tesla's second biggest market behind the United States. I'm joined now by Democratic Congressman, Gregory Meeks, Democrat of New York. He's the ranking member on the House Foreign Affairs Committee. Congressman, thank you for your time tonight.

I know you see this as a conflict. I guess my question is, in the old days, especially the armed services committee, the intelligence committees, they would have access to people and talk about these very sensitive things. Democrats get zip right now, right. When you ask these questions.

REP. GREGORY MEEKS (D-NY): Oh, absolutely. We get nothing. We make requests. There is no reply to our requests. The fact of the matter on the House foreign affairs committee, we have had had a hearing yet from the through the full committee. We don't have classified sessions in regards to this kind of stuff. There is nothing happening and no one responding to anything that were doing. It is all held in a secret way, I guess, among themselves. So that, as in this case, where clearly I think "The New York Times" had picked up what was going on, and then quickly they tried to say that it did not occur.

But look, we know that this President has shown National Security documents before, whether it was in Mar-a-Lago or whether it was in the White House to the Russians. So, look, I got to believe that there's some credibility to "The Times" story.

KING: And if there was transparency and I know that's a giant if. If Musk said, I'm going there as part of DOGE, I'm going to look at spending. I'm trying to trim spending. I'm trying to see if there are wasteful jobs. Is that okay? Or because he has those contracts?

MEEKS: No.

KING: For SpaceX and others, should he just say this is one Department I can't touch? Someone else has to do it.

MEEKS: Clearly, the Pentagon has to be a place where a non-elected individual was not elected by anyone, does not have this kind of security clearance that you should have should be he should be kept as far away from the Pentagon as possible, particularly because of his conflict of interest. As you've enunciated about his businesses in China.

You know, the largest his largest factories there, the $38 billion that he's getting from the government of the United States, the one place -- there's plenty of places. You know, I don't believe he should be in our Social Security records as he is with other Americans trying to deal with that, especially when you have a situation like the President himself who won't even reveal his tax returns. But the one place for our National Security that this man should not get anywhere close to is the Pentagon for any reason.

[20:25:14]

KING: This is not your first rodeo. You've served quite a long time, sir. I know there are Republicans watching who are probably saying, oh, come on, John. During the Biden administration, Republicans would ask for information and the Biden administration would say, no, it's a ridiculous fishing expedition. We're not going to answer that. That happens to be true. This town has been too polarized for too long.

But on these particular issues, National Security and sensitivity, is this the same as it was under Biden or before that in the first Trump term, or is it worse?

MEEKS: It has never been this way under Biden. It wasn't exactly this way under Trump one. It was not this way under Obama. It was not this way under Clinton. And I talked to some of my colleagues who've been there before me. This is the first and only time in modern history or ever, that has been this way. It's just unbelievable. It is a national security problem that is being presented by acting this way. And I would hope that my Republican colleagues, you know, we took it off, take it all, and off an oath of office to protect the constitution and the United States of America, not an individual.

And what seems to be taking place as Congress is just conceding our oversight authority of the President of the United States. They simply say they just want to do what Donald Trump says to do. And I don't think history has seen anything like this except for in the 1930s.

KING: Congressman Gregory Meeks, grateful for your time tonight, sir. We'll continue the conversation. Really appreciate it.

Up next here on AC360, my new "All Over The Map" report from Wisconsin, where Democrats are trying to overcome the very hard lessons of their 2024 Presidential defeat, now going door to door, trying to get out the vote for a big race next month.

And later, remember the merchant of death, the Russian arms dealer released from federal prison two years ago in exchange for the WNBA player Brittney Griner. What he said to our Fred Pleitgen in Moscow about his freedom and U.S. Russia relations in the new Trump era.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:31:57]

JOHN KING, CNN HOST: The first major election of President Trump's second term is set to take place in less than two weeks. On April 1st, voters in Wisconsin will pick a new state Supreme Court justice. That race is between conservative Waukesha County Circuit Judge Brad Schimel and the Liberal Dane County Circuit Judge Susan Crawford.

It is, beyond that, a giant test in one of the big swing states President Trump swept in November. Trump allies are trying now to show momentum and show that voters are still with the President and his agenda. Democrats hope to say they are quickly learning from their bruising defeat.

Given the stakes, no surprise, this is a very costly election. Groups aligned with Elon Musk have spent more than $6 million in Wisconsin, either supporting Schimel or opposing Crawford. Democrats hope to motivate their base by making Musk a big issue.

Here's a new TV ad.

(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Attacking Social Security, cutting Medicaid and child cancer research, dismantling the Department of Education, Elon Musk is out of control. And now the power-hungry billionaire is unloading millions to buy the Wisconsin Supreme Court.

(END VIDEOCLIP)

KING: I traveled back to Wisconsin earlier this week for the latest edition of my All Over the Map series. The big question, are Democrats still in a funk or are they learning from that big 2024 loss?

(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)

KING (voice-over): Back at it in Battleground, Wisconsin.

ALIHYA JOHNSON, CANVASSER, BLACK LEADERS ORGANIZING FOR COMMUNITIES: I was wondering if I could talk to you for a second?

KING (voice-over): Door-to-door, Milwaukee's north side.

JOHNSON: I'm out knocking on doors about the upcoming election happening April 1st. Were you interested in voting?

KING (voice-over): Losing in November still stings, makes Alihya Johnson's job even harder.

JOHNSON: A lot of people saying, you know, they're not going to vote.

KING (voice-over): This is old school canvassing by black leaders organizing for communities in Milwaukee neighborhoods that gave Donald Trump more votes in 2024 than in 2020. Control of the Wisconsin State Supreme Court is the current battle.

ANGELA LANG, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, BLACK LEADERS ORGANIZING FOR COMMUNITIES: And that can decide things like fair maps, abortion, voting rights.

KING (voice-over): On paper, this election is Susan Crawford versus Brad Schimel. But BLOC CEO Angela Lang knows it's also a big gut check. Can Democrats and allies like BLOC energized voters who stayed home in November? Can they reconnect with once loyal Democrats who decided to give Trump and Republicans a chance?

LANG: People didn't feel that Democrats were addressing the needs and the issues of the average voter. And I think people wanted to try something different. And so I think this will be like the first true local test to see if there are lessons learned.

KING: (voice-over): Local Democrats believe more organizing offices in Black and Latino neighborhoods is part of the long-term fix. In the short term though --

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Tell Elon Musk, take your money and get out of our state.

KING: (voice-over): -- they hope a new villain helps improve turnout.

JOSH KLEMONS, WISCONSIN VOTER: Elon Musk is pouring so much money into this race. And Wisconsin has a real chance on April 1st to show that money cannot buy elections. The world's richest men cannot pick and choose who should serve in our government at every level, from state courts all the way up through governor, senator, and president.

Josh Klemons is a musician, a Democratic campaign consultant, and an avid TikToker.

[20:35:01]

KLEMONS: We got this. You all, we got less than two weeks until Election Day. Everything is on the line.

KING: (voice-over): Klemons says Democrats are losing close elections because they are losing the internet. KLEMONS: Republicans have built a massive media infrastructure that allows them to get out their message in a way that Democrats cannot compete with. It doesn't matter if our messages are better or not, because they're not getting heard.

KING: (voice-over): He wants progressives to invest in more and better social media.

KLEMONS: They have to vote on April 1st.

KING: (voice-over): More podcasts. But he also says more fight from party leaders would help motivate exhausted and exasperated voters.

KLEMONS: You know, Senate Democrats cave, and absolutely people are frustrated. It's very hard to keep asking people to keep giving their everything when they don't see real progress.

KING: (voice-over): Charley and Emma shape Kate Duffy's approach to social media. Moms like her are busy.

KATE DUFFY, WISCONSIN VOTER: I try to make content that can be digested like between bath time and bedtime. So a quick video that somebody can watch in two or three minutes is going to do really well.

KING: (voice-over): Duffy started Motherhood for Good three years ago and is now rethinking everything because of Trump's swing state sweep.

DUFFY: There were Harris yard signs everywhere around here. I was pretty surprised, but I think obviously what we saw was he spoke to people in a way that just connected more with them, and it worked.

KING: (voice-over): One lesson from Trump's inroads in the suburbs is to talk more about the economy and the cost of living.

DUFFY: So many women make all the household, purchasing decisions, and are in charge of the budget, and that is certainly somewhere where we can do better. We can't discount somebody's actual struggle, their feeling to put food on the table for their kids. That is a daily trauma that they're dealing with.

KING: (voice-over): What Duffy posts is changing, also how she posts. Trump and his allies, she says, proved wrong what most left-leaning consultants preach.

DUFFY: Democrats picked up 14 new seats in November. I think my biggest takeaway is to listen to my gut more. There was times where I felt like, no, we can do a longer video. We can explain things more. We can add more nuance.

People are craving that, but kept hearing, well, these are the messages. It needs to be quick and simple and hit this.

KING: (voice-over): The barbershop was a daily town hall long before new media and social media. Eric Jones is here once a week. He told us months before the November election that Trump was running stronger among black men. KING: Are you getting things from the Democrats that you say, OK, this is smarter than they were last year?

ERIC JONES, WISCONSIN VOTER: No.

KING: Do you see anything out there?

JONES: No, no, I don't.

KING: (voice-over): To be fair, Jones says it's only been a few months, but with the court election days away, he worries, again, about all that Musk money.

JONES: Any political campaign is essentially an information war. And any war needs a budget, and the guy with the biggest budget tends to win.

KING: (voice-over): Worries again about black turnout.

KING: Evenly balanced court, whether it's abortion rights or drawn maps, voting rights, huge issues. Are people -- do people care?

JONES: No, I don't think so. Now, the reason I say this is because I've asked a good amount of people about it. It's bad when you don't know the candidates.

KING: (voice-over): An early swing state test --

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'll speak about today.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, you can.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK.

KING: (voice-over): -- of whether Democrats --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. Thank you so much.

KING: (voice-over): -- can get back on a winning path.

(END VIDEO TAPE)

KING: With me now, CNN Political Commentators Shermichael Singleton and Ashley Allison. Ashley, I want to start with you because organizing is your passion and your work. There's a huge debate out there, a huge debate out there about how to do it, whether it's bricks and mortar, whether it's to be more aggressive on the Internet, whether it's try to counter the Joe Rogans of the world and get in the podcast space.

But even with that debate, right now, those activists knocking on doors, those TikTokers reading their comments, say, what's happening here? The Democrats aren't fighting back. It's just hurting when they're trying to get a Democrat who's still depressed about November to vote. ASHLEY ALLISON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, first, I want to shout out BLOC because I actually met Angela, the director and founder of BLOC, after a Supreme Court -- a Wisconsin Supreme Court race during Trump 1.0. And they made huge strides in the Black community because they actually listened to their message that they wanted to put out into the community because they know the voters.

So I would assume they're doing the same thing to really --

KING: She's one of those people in the back and forth with consultants.

ALLISON: That's right.

KING: She says, the consultants say, do this, and she says, that's not what my community says.

ALLISON: This, and she says, no. And you know why? Because she lives there, and she's been there, and she talks to those folks. They're just not voters to her. They're her friends. They're her family. They're her neighbors.

So, I think that we have to do a lot of different things. I'm never going to say that a knock on the door is not how you reach a voter. But the reality is, when they close that door, they pick up this. They watch the phone. They're streaming. They're doing all of these things.

And so we have to do a surround sound approach to door knocking, digital. I'm not saying don't do any television ads, but people aren't watching television in the same way. And then the most important thing is the message.

In November, you know, Shermichael and I debated. We said the economy was doing good, but people were still suffering. People didn't believe Democrats that we were going to fight for them an economy.

Well, guess what? This is now Trump's economy. And he's done a lot of things to actually hurt this economy, hurt the stock market. So Democrats need to take that, be honest, and say, yes, it's only been eight weeks.

[20:40:05]

But he actually says, you're going to feel pain. We don't want you to feel any pain. And then finally, you know, I run a digital organizing company where we work with influencers. We work with creators.

We let them say what they want to say. We give them information. And we say, talk to your audience. Talk to your -- the people that you know how to reach. You know how to talk best about the issues with the people you engage in, the people you're in a relationship with. And I think the Democratic national infrastructure needs to listen to that.

KING: When you have an election like this in a big battleground state like Wisconsin, enormous states for people who live in the state. But also, just can you win a big, complicated 50-50 state like this? The Democrats are all in on this. Musk is the boogeyman. Musk is bad. Musk money is evil. That's a test for them.

SHERMICHAEL SINGLETON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: It is.

KING: If it works, we're going to hear a lot about it in the midterms.

SINGLETON: But if it doesn't work, then they have to reset. I mean, so Ashley just cited the -- I think it was Janet Protasiewicz --

KING: Yes, that's right.

SINGLETON: -- that first election in Trump's first term.

KING: Yes.

SINGLETON: We lost that. It was a big surprise. And Democrats really had a strong message around abortion at the time. To Ashley's point --

ALLISON: I'm talking about the one before that in Trump. That was the last one during Biden. I'm talking about -- there was --

SINGLETON: Right. That's right, that's right. Stand corrected. Thank you, Ashley.

ALLISON: Yes.

SINGLETON: So to Ashley's point, though, at the time, Democrats had a strong message around abortion. They were able to target a lot of black women around that issue because of the health disparities there.

So I can easily understand, even as a Republican strategist, why there was a motivating connection to voters to get them to turn out and vote. This time around as you heard from many of the people you interviewed, John, that message isn't really there. And as the gentleman said at the very end of that clip, whoever has the largest war chest, it absolutely is going to make a difference.

You can connect with voters in so many different ways. Ashley talked about a multivariable approach. TikTok, social media, Instagram, X, maybe not necessarily relying so heavily on traditional media as we have seen those numbers decline. And having the approach to understand how you connect with those voters, what are their most important issues to ultimately motivate them enough to turn out will make the difference.

And I would say, John, right now, that is on the side of Republicans. They are excited about the way things are going.

KING: We'll come back to that in one sec, but you heard Kate Duffy there from motherhood for good. She says she wanted to post longer messages. She wanted to talk more about the cost of living and the stress on families.

And she was pushed by the consultants. Talk about abortion rights. Talk about women's rights. Keep it short. ALLISON: Look, as someone who has a small but mighty following on different social media platforms, I know what my audience likes.

KING: Is it that the consultants spend most of their time here or in New York City and just don't understand America?

ALLISON: You know I am a consultant, so I don't want to bash them too hard. But I'm not the same kind of consultant that those folks are talking about, because I don't actually work for the party. I think that consultants, there's an infrastructure right now that is hurting the Democratic Party. And I think we need to shake it up.

There's a lot of people who've been doing a lot of things since 1992. And I'm not saying out -- throw the baby out with the bath water. But we aren't in 1992. We aren't even in 2020 anymore.

KING: I was there. We're not there anymore.

ALLISON: We're not. We're not. We didn't even have these things, right? So we need to trust the voters. We need to trust the creators. And then we need to trust their content to resonate.

And guess what? The cool thing about it is, with social media and AI and all those things, we can find out pretty soon if it's resonating. But to tell someone to totally void themselves of their own authentic voice to follow a script is a recipe for failure.

KING: I want to sneak this in quickly. We're short on time. But Eric Jones, at the end, there was a fantastic barometer --

SINGLETON: Yes.

KING: -- a guy on the street in Milwaukee all the time. He told us last year this was coming. He says his Latino friends who voted for Trump are starting to have buyer's remorse because of all the deportations.

ALLISON: Oh they are.

KING: But he says in the Black community, he hasn't seen it yet. He says because it hasn't paid people's lives. They hear about all this stuff in Washington, but it hasn't affected them yet.

SINGLETON: With an emphasis on black men. And for me, as a Republican strategist, and Ashley, you and I have talked about this, a lot of these guys who voted for Trump, they're soft. They're not really conservative voters. This was something different.

For me, the question is, can we crystallize and cement them? If we can do that in this race, I am excited as hell, John, about midterms next year.

KING: Well, you guys come with me sometime on a trip out there.

ALLISON: I'd love to.

SINGLETON: I need a new haircut, John.

KING: Mr. Rick is A1. He is A1. I'm telling you, I'm going back there when I'm there. I'm going to get in trouble with my stylist here, though.

Shermichael Singleton, Ashley Allison, thank you so much.

Next for us, you don't want to miss this. The notorious Russian prisoner Viktor Bout, once known as the Merchant of Death, was traded for American basketball star Brittney Griner. That was back in 2022.

Well, our Fred Pleitgen caught up with him in Moscow. He has a lot to say about President Trump and America's new outlook on Russia.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:49:09]

KING: Russia and Ukraine today blaming each other for this attack on a Russian gas metering station, that station not far from their shared border. This comes just days after the United States proposed a pause on energy infrastructure strikes.

Meanwhile, the legacy of a prisoner swap during the Biden administration casting a long shadow. This was the scene of playing tarmac back in 2022, the United States trading the Russian Viktor Bout for American basketball star Brittney Griner. President Biden negotiated that swap, but Bout makes clear he's a big fan of President Trump.

Our Fred Pleitgen caught up with Bout in Moscow.

(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)

VIKTOR BOUT, FORMER RUSSIAN ARMS DEALER: You know who I am?

FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: I know exactly who you are, that's why I'm asking you.

PLEITGEN (voice-over): It's the man once known as the Merchant of Death, former Russian arms dealer Viktor Bout, released by the U.S. in 2022 as part of a high profile prisoner exchange.

PLEITGEN: Do you understand that some Americans would be angry that you were exchanged and freed?

[20:50:04]

BOUT: Well, look, the same way like many Russians would be angry that I was not, you know, exchanged, you know, soon enough. So this is, you know, whatever they angry, or, you know, here is somebody angry, this is a fact. You know, take it or leave it. It's happened, you can't reverse it.

PLEITGEN (voice-over): Bout was serving a 25-year prison sentence for, among other things, conspiring to kill Americans, which he has consistently denied. But as pressure was mounting on the Biden administration to secure the release of U.S. women's basketball star Brittney Griner, detained and convicted on drug charges in Moscow, the U.S. made a deal, swapping Bout for Griner at an airport in Abu Dhabi in December 2022.

Bursting into tears after landing in Moscow, Bout says he never stopped believing Russian leader Vladimir Putin would get him out.

BOUT: We are Russians, we have a strong belief in our, you know, faith and our loyalty to the -- our country, to our motherhood, is, you know, is our, I would say, main base.

PLEITGEN (voice-over): Here in Russia, Viktor Bout is a celebrity, a politician and member of a regional parliament. I bumped into him at a press event in Moscow, a staunch supporter of the Russian president and what Putin calls the special military operation in Ukraine, but also of U.S. President Trump's efforts to restore relations with Russia.

PLEITGEN: Do you think that Donald Trump understands Russia better than Joe Biden did?

BOUT: I don't think it's a mere factor of understanding. It's Trump representing the, you know, American people who said enough is enough, who won't really change, that's why he was elected, you know. And the Biden administration was just, you know, in bed with all this, you know, neo-cons, you know, warmongers and the global elites who just try to stage a World War III.

PLEITGEN (voice-over): Anti-war rhetoric from a man the U.S. once accused of fueling armed conflicts through his weapon sales.

(END VIDEO TAPE)

PLEITGEN (on-camera): And John, no surprise, Viktor Bout thinks things are going Russia's way, both on the battlefield and diplomatically, as Russian negotiators get ready to head back to Saudi Arabia for another round of talks early next week. John?

KING: Fascinating stuff. Fred Pleitgen, thanks.

Up next for us, terrifying moments, often in the middle of the night, swatting incidents at the home of some Trump and Musk supporters. The details next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:57:18]

KING: Some conservative social media influencers who are ardent supporters of President Trump and Elon Musk falling victim to swatting incidents. Swatting is a crime that involves someone calling 911 to report a bogus emergency, to draw police to a home. As you can imagine, it can be a terrifying ordeal.

More now from CNN's Hadas Gold. (BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)

HADAS GOLD, CNN JERUSALEM CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It was around 1:00 a.m. on March 16th when Larry Tauton's dog, Ranger, was getting agitated. A man with a gun was trying to open his front door.

LARRY TAUNTON, SWATTING VICTIM: I am crouched inside, armed, and I'm thinking, if that man comes through my door, I'm going to light him up. Because you're just thinking, somebody's here to murder me and my wife.

GOLD (voice-over): It turned out to be three police officers seen here on Tauton's home surveillance video.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police department!

GOLD (voice-over): A bogus emergency call had been made claiming multiple gunmen were, quote, "executing everybody in the house".

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It don't look like there's been three or four guys in here who's shot everybody.

GOLD (voice-over): Tauton is one of at least a dozen conservative influencers who say they were swatted in the last two weeks, prompting a massive emergency response.

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: That's good.

GOLD (voice-over): All of the victims have large followings on X and are supporters of President Donald Trump and Elon Musk. The swattings come as other entities associated with the billionaire and top Trump adviser are also coming under attack.

Tesla dealerships and individual cars around the country vandalized and attacked. Musk responding to one swatting victim, "Whoever is doing this needs to face justice". The Departments of Justice and Homeland Security say they're investigating.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They are not practical jokes. They are meant to terrorize the individuals within the homes, and they risk the lives of law enforcement officers. They're extremely dangerous, and the Department of Justice, we take these very, very seriously.

GOLD (voice-over): Erin Derham and her family were also swatted early on March 16th at their home in North Carolina.

ERIN DERHAM, SWATTING VICTIM: When I walked up to the door, he was pointing a gun at me, you know, and obviously, like, immediately stopped when he saw me. But it was a lot of confusion, a lot of fear.

GOLD (voice-over): She says the swattings are, quote, "a cheap form of terrorism".

DERHAM: This was humiliating and terrifying. Like, it happening, you know, you're so scared, and you just think, what if this is a dry run? You know, there are all these moments where you're like, this is really, really scary.

(END VIDEO TAPE)

GOLD (on-camera): And these influencers tell me that this harassment has only further fired them up, and they have no plans to go quiet anytime soon. John?

KING: Fascinating report. Hadas Gold, thanks so much.

This weekend on The Whole Story with Anderson, CNN's Chief Climate Correspondent Bill Weir travels the globe to find innovative solutions that will allow us to build communities that with -- can withstand any climate disaster. The Whole Story airs this Sunday, 8:00 p.m., only on CNN.

Hope you have a wonderful weekend. The news continues now. The Source with Kaitlan Collins starts right now.