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Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees
Trump's Tariffs Spark Recession Fears Worldwide; Interview with Sen. Tina Smith (D-MN); Tariffs will Affect Every Manufacturer. Global Economy Reeling From Trump's Tariffs: U.S. Stock Market Has Its Worst Day Since 2020; Trump Defends Decision To Fire Several NSC Staffers After Meeting With Far-Right Activist Laura Loomer; Pentagon Watchdog Launches Probe Of Hegseth's Signal Messages; Trump On Musk: "There Will Be A Point At Which Elon's Going To Have To Leave"; NY Times: Justice Dept. To Restore Mel Gibson's Gun Rights. Aired 8-9p ET
Aired April 03, 2025 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
HARRY ENTEN CNN, CHIEF DATA ANALYST: ... least popular out of any of the major figures in the Trump White House. Rubio is right there at the even mark. Trump was minus two in the latest Fox News poll. How about Vance? Minus eight. Look where Musk is, all the way down at minus 18 points. He is by far the least liked person in the Trump White House. He is a drag on Donald Trump and the question is, how many more Scaramuccis can he last there?
ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: Incredible. All right, thank you so much, Harry.
ENTEN: Thank you.
BURNETT: And thanks so much to all of you for being with us, AC360 begins now.
[20:00:35]
JOHN BERMAN, CNN HOST: Tonight on 360 the President says his tariffs will make the country boom. So far, though, they're just making things go boom. Blowing up the markets, 401(k)s and already jobs in one key industry he promised to protect.
Also tonight, the Signal scandal deepens with Defense Secretary Hegseth now facing a probe launched by his own Department's inspector general.
And later, and this is remarkable, how a far right 9/11 conspiracy peddler, Laura Loomer ended up inside the White House with a list of National Security Council officials she wanted fired, and how somehow the President did just that with their boss, the National Security adviser, sitting there apparently powerless.
Good evening, John Berman here in for Anderson. This time last night, Americans in the world were bracing for impact from the President's tariff rollout. Today, the first blow landed. Stocks, and with them, millions of retirement accounts took a beating today here and abroad. And as trading begins right now in Tokyo, here's what those investors will be following. The Dow lost almost four percent of its value, the S&P almost five, the NASDAQ just a hair shy of six percent.
There are those who get caught up in what superlatives to use, but how about this? It was a bad, bad day. European and Asian markets sank as well, which made for a grim split screen even before U.S. markets opened. as members of the administration talked up the tariffs.
Here is Agriculture Secretary Brooke Rollins this morning with stock futures tanking as she talked.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BROOKE ROLLINS, U.S. AGRICULTURE SECRETARY: We are really, really excited and very grateful to President Trump's leadership and being willing to be bold and fearless in facing some pretty big policy challenges around the world.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BERMAN: An hour later, markets opened, racking up their worst day since 2020. Something the President discounted as it was happening. and then after the fact, aboard Air Force One.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP (R) PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: The markets are going to boom. The stock is going to boom. The country is going to boom.
We got to give it a little chance, but we're taking in jobs and we're taking in industry. We're taking in trillions of dollars. I think -- I think our markets are going to boom. We got to give it a little bit of time.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BERMAN: All right, that said, as much as markets can be viewed as a snapshot of the moment, they also reflect what investors think about the future, as in future prices and profits, what consumers will have in their pockets to spend and jobs. And although the President said today the operation is over and the patient is healing, it may be that the operation was performed without anesthetic and they just made the first incisions. In other words, this could be the painful beginning, not the end of whatever the post tariff world might become.
Take the 25 percent car tariff that started today. The impact of that is just starting. Today, Chrysler and Jeep maker Stellantis paused production at several plants in Canada and Mexico. Not our problem, you say? Well, the move affected five American facilities supplying parts to those plants, triggering 900 layoffs here.
There is fallout as well, already in the form of retaliation. Canada's prime minister today announced a 25 percent counter tariff on cars and said this about Americas future on the world stage.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARK CARNEY, CANADIAN PRIME MINISTER: The global economy is fundamentally different today than it was yesterday. The system of global trade anchored on the United States that Canada has relied on since the end of the Second World War, a system that, while not perfect, has helped to deliver prosperity for our country for decades is over.
While this is a tragedy, it is also the new reality.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BERMAN: So, that new reality will likely be more expensive. Volkswagen today said it will pass on the cost of tariffs to consumers and single it out as a line item, added import fee on the window sticker.
For those who believe, as the President often says, that foreign countries and not consumers, pay for tariffs. this is a reminder that its often not so, and it won't be the only one.
According to the nonpartisan, Tax Foundation, these new tariffs will cost the average household an additional $2,100.00 a year for the things they buy and shrink their after tax income by about two percent. And just before airtime, this headline in "The Wall Street Journal," analysts at JPMorgan raised their forecast of a global recession happening this year to 60 percent.
We're going to have more shortly from a panel of top economy watchers on the immediate and longer term impact of these tariffs, and we are going to be joined by Democratic Senator Tina Smith, who hails from a border state and sits on the Finance Committee.
First, though, the very latest on the man who is making this all possible, the President. Let's get right to CNN chief White House correspondent Kaitlan Collins as she gets ready to anchor "The Source" at the top of the hour. So, Kaitlan, what has the President been saying today about this tariff plan?
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR AND CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, we heard from the President, John, as he was leaving the White House earlier. He's going down to South Florida and he only took one question from reporters as he was departing the White House and essentially likened this to a surgical operation, saying that he believes that once they get through this, that in the end, the patient, that situation being the United States and the economy and U.S. consumers and businesses will be better off.
[20:05:50]
So, essentially, shrugging off the turmoil that we have seen inside the stock markets today and predicting that it will get better, something that later, when he was speaking with reporters, he reaffirmed that comment on Air Force One. We just heard from the Vice-President, J.D. Vance, who was likening it to one bad day in the stock market, and also saying that he thought things could have been worse than they were today despite seeing this huge wipeout in gains, the selloff, one of the worst days in the stock market since 2020.
And the President, though, has been talking to reporters as everyone is kind of trying to read the tea leaves, and when I say everyone, I mean world leaders and business leaders in terms of what the President intends to do with these tariffs and how long he intends to keep them on. Because that was a question I had for the Treasury Secretary last night, are these permanent tariffs that are being put in place? And he essentially said wait to see. He did not make the argument that these tariffs are here to stay. And obviously that's something businesses are watching very closely.
And despite the President's aides going out today and saying this is not a negotiating tool, that the President is deadly serious about keeping these tariffs in place and restructuring the way the U.S. global -- or the way the global economy works.
The President himself acknowledged on Air Force One to reporters that he does view this as a negotiating tool and he essentially argued that if countries can bring something phenomenal to the table, then they may be able to make a deal with him.
And so, obviously, that is something that a lot of these countries are going to be trying to do. The President already said today he was getting a lot of calls from world leaders, from business leaders, from auto leaders, he singled out specifically today as they are all raising questions and watching the stock market, and certainly not dismissing it as much as we are seeing the White House do so -- John.
BERMAN: Yes, J.D. Vance calls it one bad day. It's been a few months of one bad days, and this was the worst single day in five years.
Kaitlan Collins, thank you. We'll see you at the top of the hour on the sauce along with your guests, United Auto Workers President, Shawn Fain.
With us now is Democratic Senator Tina Smith of Minnesota, who's on the finance committee. Senator, nice to see you. You just heard Kaitlan talk about the fact that advisers have been out over the course of the day saying -- oh, it's non-negotiable, its non- negotiable. But the President himself said today, maybe there's some room to negotiate, listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: Sir, are you open to deals with these countries if they're calling you?
TRUMP: Well, it depends. If somebody said that we're going to give you something that's so phenomenal, as long as they're giving us something that's good. For instance, with TikTok as an example, we have a situation with TikTok where China will probably say, we'll approve a deal, but will you do something on the tariff? The tariffs give us great power to negotiate.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BERMAN: So you think he's open to make deals to reduce these tariffs? And what do you think this new uncertainty will do to the markets?
SEN. TINA SMITH (D-MN): Well, I mean who the heck knows? What I know for sure is that this has been a disastrous day for our economy and for Americans. I mean, even JP Morgan says that he has just imposed the largest tax increase that we've seen in this country since the 1960s.
And, I can tell you, at home in Minnesota, people don't have any idea what's going on, but they see nothing in what the President is doing that is giving them any certainty about what's next.
You know, you've got one billionaire in the President's administration saying, take this seriously, these tariffs are going to be our big money raiser and then you have another billionaire saying, wait and see, don't worry. And right now, Minnesota farmers are trying to figure out how much they should pay for their input costs, what to put in the field, where their markets are going to be over the next nine months and there is nothing in what the President is saying that gives them any confidence, in what is actually one of the worst farm economies in the last 25 years. So, this uncertainty is absolutely deadly.
BERMAN: How well do you understand the methodology that the White House is using to impose these tariffs on specific countries based on the trade deficit the U.S. has with each country?
SMITH: Yes, so the President seems to believe that any time we have a trade deficit that that is bad for America and it is good for the countries that are buying our products, and it seems as if what they have done is put together some sort of nutty formula that identifies what this tariff should be country by country based on this formula.
But it doesn't make any sense to me, and I don't think it makes any sense to the markets, to the capital markets who are looking at this and voting very clearly with what's happening with the stock market today. And understand, this is people's retirement. It is their 401(k)s that have just gone down precipitously.
And it's not just one bad day. It has been a really bad couple of months for Americans and Minnesotans.
[20:10:31]
BERMAN: White House Senior Adviser Peter Navarro was dismissing concerns today that prices will go up because of tariffs. One of the reasons he gives is that he says that these foreign countries will manipulate their currency, and by that, it will help keep prices down. You're on the Senate Finance Committee. presumably you understand this better than most. How much sense does that make to you?
SMITH: It doesn't make any sense at all. I mean, fundamentally, what tariffs are, are a tax. It is a tax that importers into the United States pay for products that are made in other places and the ripple effects of what these tariffs -- what happens with these tariffs across all of the various supply chains are really quite complicated and quite serious. I talked earlier this week with the CEO of a big hospital, one of the biggest hospitals in Minnesota, and she's asking herself, how am I -- what's going to happen with my -- with the supplies that I'm buying? How am I going to afford pharmaceuticals? What is this going to do to the construction costs that were looking at for this big surgical center that we are -- that we're most of the way through building?
And, I mean, across the board there is -- this is about more costs for not only families, but also for small businesses, for hospitals, for our whole economy.
BERMAN: Senator Smith -- Tina Smith from Minnesota, thank you for being with us tonight, appreciate your time.
With us now, Richard Quest, editor-at-large at CNN Business and anchor of "Quest Means Business" on CNN International; also with us, Ana Swanson, reporter on trade and international economics for "The New York Times;" and Jennifer Welch with "Bloomberg Economics." She previously served as director for China and Taiwan on the U.S. National Security Council in the Biden and first Trump administration.
Richard, you're here with me. Just put this in perspective, like how big of a shock to the global economic system was this today?
RICHARD QUEST, CNN EDITOR AT LARGE IN BUSINESS AND ANCHOR OF "QUEST MEANS BUSINESS": This was unparalleled for a century. You are talking about a global trading system that has worked under certain rules, certain beliefs, certain philosophies. and all of a sudden, the United States, far from being the surgeon's scalpel, he went in there with a chainsaw, a bulldozer, whatever you want to call it and literally blew it all up.
Existing trade relations, free trade agreements, understandings, known allies. The best way to describe it, and I don't use these words lightly, what we saw yesterday and the market reaction today is as a result. This is economic vandalism on a giant scale and why I tell you this? Because if your neighbor is running over your garden, if your neighbor is making a nuisance of themselves with loud parties, you don't go next door and break the windows, rip off the door. You don't go and dig up their garden. That's essentially what he's done with these tariffs.
And the administration might be very proud of what they've done. and they may believe that it's all going to be fine and it's going to boom. But I do not see a scenario in which that happens at the moment and history, I'm afraid, is on my side.
BERMAN: So, Ana, one of the things the White House and the President continue to say is there will be some short-term pain, but just short term. Is that what we saw today was today the short term pain or is there more to come and what would that be? ANA SWANSON, TRADE AND INTERNATIONAL ECONOMICS REPORTER, "THE NEW YORK TIMES:" Yes, I know, they kept talking about a transition period, acknowledging that there might be a little bit of pain but in the longer run, supply chains will come back to the United States, factories will come back to the United States, and we will have more jobs, more production here and that will be good for America.
You know, they're describing this as a transition period that might take, you know, maybe until Q4. They've been a little bit hesitant to put a time frame around it.
From my perspective, it takes a very, very long time for companies to think about building new factories, to think about shifting supply chains. It really takes years for that kind of process to unfold. And just speaking with, you know, some company executives about how they're feeling, it seems like a lot of companies are uncertain whether or not these tariffs are even going to be in effect for the long run.
You know, so, they may not have the motivation to begin shifting their supply chains if the President still is in deal-making mode and those tariffs could come off and that implies that this could be a very long transition period indeed.
BERMAN: It's a great point. Some of the tariffs that he's imposing work to counter purposes here. If the job is to move jobs back here, then the ones that can be negotiated away don't help. They run counter to that. Jennifer, the Treasury Secretary, said to Kaitlan Collins last night that other countries should just take a deep breath and not retaliate. What's the likelihood they follow that advice? Do you think other countries will retaliate?
[20:15:18]
JENNIFER WELCH, CHIEF GEO-ECONOMIC ANALYST, BLOOMBERG ECONOMICS: I think there are a number of countries that are going to make a bet that its better right now to talk and to attempt to negotiate, offer concessions and see what they can get out of that, in part because as President Trump was just saying earlier today, he seems interested in making a deal. What the encompassing matters of that deal might be seems very open to negotiation, whether it's on tariffs, on non-tariff barriers, maybe additional investments on the United States have been other things he's portrayed interest in.
I think there are a couple of countries, though, namely China, that have already vowed to take countermeasures. And they are probably pulling together a toolkit while also reserving some room for talks because they want to demonstrate that they can't be pushed around quite so freely.
BERMAN: Richard, as we all know, the stock market's not everything. But then again, the stock market is not nothing either. And today was a very big drop. Was it just the tariffs and was it just the announcement they were reacting to? What would they be looking for tomorrow and in the days ahead? QUEST: Oh, no, no, no, no, no. It wasn't just the tariffs. This market was already worried. It was overbought. The valuations were too high. there were questions about DeepSeek and there were questions about valuations and profitability under A.I. -- all those sort of things. So this was a market that was had a certain fragility about it to begin with.
What this did was take away any form of prop. Now there is no reason. And you see this in terms of no one is talking about buying on the dips. No one's talking about that because everybody's just terrified about what might come next.
And by the way, to the point of those jobs that he's hoping to bring back, The Peterson Institute will tell you those are jobs that he's hoping to bring back that should not come back to the United States. Why? Because the U.S. is now a digital economy, A.I. it needs to have a new skill set of advanced economics and advanced industry, not those older jobs of manufacturing.
And so, the risk is that this entire policy is pushing the U.S. industry in the wrong direction to bring back the wrong sort of jobs, when what's needed is a much more modernized digital future.
BERMAN: And we talked a little bit with Senator Smith about the methodology that the administration is using to impose these tariffs on a country-to-country basis. How much sense does that make to you and to these other countries?
SWANSON: Yes. So we initially thought that these tariff levels were calculated based on the tariffs of other countries, based on their trading practices, and that the administration had to come up with a number based on that. But in reality, it actually was quite a simple formula, just the trade deficit for each country divided by U.S. imports from that country.
So essentially, the President is very focused on bilateral trade deficits with these countries, with the idea of eliminating them essentially entirely if these countries want the tariffs to come off.
And, you know, frankly, you know, it doesn't make a lot of sense from an economic perspective. I mean, yes, the U.S. has a large trade deficit. There is an argument to make that it would be good for the economy to bring that down, to bring manufacturing back to the United States, but just focusing on bilateral trade deficits ignores the fact that, you know, maybe we buy products from some country because they're particularly good at making them, or because they grow coffee or, you know, have some particular type of product that we want. So it totally ignores the idea of comparative advantage and trade.
BERMAN: All right, everyone stand by for a moment. We're going to pick this up after the break and focus more closely on the auto industry, which as we mentioned at the top, is already fully engulfed in tariffs and counter-tariffs and price hikes.
Later, the firing of White House officials, apparently at the behest of someone who was not even part of the administration. The fringe right wing activist, Laura Loomer. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:23:30]
BERMAN: We are talking about what the President's sweeping tariffs could do to the domestic and global economy, jobs and American influence in the world, when you can retire and with how much in the bank? All of it. In most of it, if were being blunt, is not even partly foreseeable beyond the broadest outline.
Some of it, though, is fully tangible and playing out right now where cars and trucks are bought and sold and made. Here's CNN's Omar Jimenez in Detroit tonight.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
GEORGE GLASSMAN, GLASSMAN AUTOMOTIVE GROUP, PRESIDENT: I've had my share of turmoil over the years. And so, that's why I'm comfortable that this, too, will be something that we'll be able to deal with and overcome.
OMAR JIMENEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): But George Glassman knows it won't be easy. He runs Glassman Automotive Group in Southfield, Michigan, outside Detroit, the self-described auto capital of the world.
GLASSMAN: So, my father started the business in 1969. We haven't seen anything, in my opinion, this disruptive as long as I've been in the business.
JIMENEZ,(voice over): His current inventory of cars is pre-tariff unaffected, but that won't last.
JIMENEZ, (on camera): Do you anticipate having to raise prices on your vehicles when we get to that point?
GLASSMAN: Well, we're not going to have a choice. Ultimately, a decision has to be made by the manufacturers. How much are they willing to absorb of the tariff.
JIMENEZ,(voice over): Which would affect prices for people like Laura Downing?
LAURA DOWNING, DETROIT AREA RESIDENT: I have huge concerns about the tariffs and all the different ways that prices are going to go up, not just as related to, you know, automobiles and auto parts, et. cetera.
JIMENEZ,(voice over): As she spoke with us, she had just leased a new car.
DOWNING: With auto parts going up, I just figured I might as well be in something that's newer, that I'm not going to need a lot of maintenance on.
JIMENEZ,(voice over): The Trump administration also plans to put tariffs on car parts by May.
DOWNING: I don't know how much I can say, but I mean --
JIMENEZ (on camera): You can say whatever you like.
DOWNING: You know, I think the entire thing is -- it's bad politics. It's not good for anybody to even much further outside of just auto parts. You know, it's going to hurt a lot of people.
JIMENEZ (voice over): And she wasn't the only one thinking tariffs.
[20:25:28]
JIMENEZ (on camera): So, that was on your mind when you came in to the shop.
ROBERT AND DENISE HOLIDAY: That was the main reason on our mind, the tariffs.
R. HOLIDAY: Everybody's saying that the prices on automobiles are going to go up. We're kind of on fixed income. We're retired.
D. HOLIDAY: Yes, we retired. We thought we better come now.
R. HOLIDAY: Yes --
D. HOLIDAY: -- while we still can and we still have our Social Security.
JIMENEZ (voice over): Both the Holidays and Downing are part of what Glassman described as somewhat of a dash of customers in recent weeks, trying to find something to drive before prices drive up.
GLASSMAN: You've got high interest rates, you've got food costs that are high. And now, their second largest purchase next to a home is also in play.
R. HOLIDAY: At least two of our friends that we know of are out as we speak.
D. HOLIDAY: Another one, she called. She was on her way to the dealership when she called us.
JIMENEZ (voice over): But after this window of opportunity for customers comes reality.
GLASSMAN: Regardless of the make, the model, every single manufacturer will be affected by the tariffs.
JIMENEZ (voice over): Even with the roadblocks, Glassman sees a way through.
GLASSMAN: Detroit has been through so much over the years. There have been ups and downs and the automobile business and its dealers have been resilient. The thought of building plants and having more manufacturing jobs here in the States is admirable, but it doesn't happen overnight.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
JIMENEZ: You know, and that last part is part of why the United Auto Workers Union has actually endorsed these tariffs, hoping it would shift more auto production back to U.S. plants. But again, even that reality would take some time.
And then on the buying side of things, another market to keep an eye on is the used car market. Because as these tariffs affect prices of imported cars, those new car prices go up. So, people will start turning to used cars. But as more people go used, it could just be simply demand that drives up those prices. So a lot of variables that these dealers and of course customers are keeping an eye on, in even just these opening hours of these tariffs -- John.
BERMAN: You know, a lot of factors that play. Omar, great report, it's so important to hear those voices. Thank you.
Back now with Richard Quest, Ana Swanson and Jennifer Welch. So Richard, that's cars and in some ways we're already going to start to see car prices and things go up very quickly. We saw with Volkswagen today. But what else and how soon will we see these prices go up on what other products?
QUEST: Everything that's important. So, I went across the street to the deli just from over here, from our bureau, and I just walked around.
Now, you know, San Pellegrino water comes from Italy. That's going to go up 20 percent. How about these Cadbury Dairy Milk chocolate fingers? Rather tasty with a cup of tea. They'll go up 10 percent, these will go up 10 percent. If you've never had a Tim Tam, have you? A Tim Tam from Australia, you've never had one. Well, you're not having one of mine.
BERMAN: It's going to be too late for me to have one on the cheaper, apparently.
QUEST: Absolutely, these are going to go up. Oh, look at this. This is the ghost pepper spicy chicken flavor from Malaysia. It's going to go up by 24 percent. That doesn't sound much when it's only a bob or two here and there. Flaming spicy madness. It's been described as I'm not sure if it's this or the tariff of which they are talking about.
The point being, think of what you buy. Think -- yes, there are domestic equivalents and of course you can avoid buying imported goods. But the reality is those Honduran bananas, apples from wherever, chocolates -- doesn't matter, they're all going up and it's by multiple percent. I'll save you one.
BERMAN: I'll have one on break. Jennifer, so, going up everywhere, broad based, but are there certain sectors that are going to be hit harder and more quickly than others?
WELCH: I think much of this might depend on which countries are willing to come to the table to make a deal. We have the 10 percent minimum tariffs that are going to come into play by April 5th. There's still some time to work towards those, but then in particular, we have until April 9th, until those higher reciprocal tariffs come into play.
And again, I think a lot of countries are going to be negotiating. President Trump said he was on the phone a lot of today, even in advance of yesterday's announcement, we saw a lot of countries willing to come to the table with sort of proactive concessions in order to waive off tariffs.
It remains to be seen whether any of that will be successful but there's a chance for some deal making here that could reduce the impact. There's also a chance that maybe the White House will take a look at what's happening in the stock market and think about how they can portray some of those deals as wins and give them an out to reduce tariffs anyways.
BERMAN: You know, Ana, we heard from that piece from car country that one of the goals here is to bring manufacturing jobs back to the United States, increasing manufacturing jobs is a noble goal. Is this the best way to get there and what are the possible bumps in the road to that?
SWANSON: Well, frankly, I mean, often tariffs do work to bring manufacturing back to the United States. But the problem that economists think is that tariffs also have lots of other side effects that can ripple through the economy. They can raise prices for consumers, of course, which slows down buying. and then that in turn slows down economic growth. The other big problem that can cause tariffs to backfire on manufacturing and factories is that a lot of factories themselves depend on imports.
They depend on imported raw materials or imported products. So once you start to jack up those costs for factories, then, you know, their profit margins shrink and they can produce less in the United States. So it can help some factories, but it can also really seriously backfire in some cases.
BERMAN: Richard, are there winners here in the short term? I mean, who's winning this?
RICHARD QUEST, CNN BUSINESS ANCHOR, QUEST MEANS BUSINESS: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. The U.S. Treasury. Absolutely. Let's be clear. The External Revenue Service will be a winner. Not as much as he thinks or hopes. Certainly not enough to pay for the tax cuts if they are renewed.
But the U.S. Treasury will be taking in billions of dollars in these. But it's not -- it's a tax rise. So it's out of Americans' pocket. It's not like it's a neutral sum. It's not like they've won the lottery. They will have a negative effect.
Can we just keep this to the really most basic aspect? This is blowing up the global trading system as we've known it. You know, I used the phrase right at the beginning, economic vandalism. There is no easy way out of this, whichever way you go, because countries are going to retaliate. Carney is fighting an election in Canada. Albanese is fighting an election in Australia. Vandalia in the E.U. has got to show that she's strong. Nobody can afford to be seen to be weak. And the President is just basically going to stick to a position that has been discredited by history over many decades.
BERMAN: Well, it is an historic moment one way or the other.
Richard Quest, Ana Swanson, Jennifer Welch, thanks to all of you.
Next, a remarkable show of firepower in the form apparently of firing power by right-wing figure Laura Loomer at the White House. What the President just said about that. Also, where Elon Musk now stands in the president's eyes.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:37:13]
BERMAN: More breaking news tonight, President Trump is defending his decision to fire several administration officials, including at least three National Security Council staffers after meeting with far-right figure Laura Loomer.
(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)
DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Always, we're going to let go of people -- people that we don't like, or people that we don't think can do the job, or people that may have loyalties to somebody else. Laura Loomer is a very good patriot. And I saw her yesterday for a little while. She has -- she makes recommendations of things and people, and sometimes I listen to those recommendations.
(END VIDEOCLIP)
BERMAN: Loomer, a 9/11 conspiracy peddler who is seen as extreme even to some of the President's closest allies, has long been part of the President's circle. She was spotted outside of the White House yesterday embracing Commerce Secretary Howard Lutnick, and sources say she compiled a list of around a dozen staffers and urged Trump to fire them, claiming they are disloyal.
Now, it's unclear if any of the people who were let go were connected to the Signal group chat controversy. National Security Adviser Mike Waltz, who runs the National Security Council, was apparently also in the media, or at least part of it. It's unclear if he had any say in the firings.
With us now is CNN Senior Law Enforcement Analyst and former FBI Deputy Director Andrew McCabe, also CNN Global Affairs Analyst Brett McGurk, who recently served in the National Security Council during the Biden administration.
Andy, let me just start with you. What's your takeaway if this far- right conservative activist can get people fired from the National Security Council? ANDREW MCCABE, CNN SENIOR LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Yes. So I guess, John, my overall takeaway is it's quite revealing of what the President believes is important and also what the President doesn't think is important. In this case, he clearly places a lot of emphasis and consideration on the claims of a far-right leaning conspiracy theorist, someone who's peddled numerous lies and basically makes their living as an internet troll over concerns about actual national security issues.
So to turn around and fire however many people we're talking about here, I know the reporting has been different, it's anywhere from three to six or 10 people have lost their jobs over in the last few days over issues of perceived loyalty.
Now, none of these people are accused of actually having done anything illegal or wrong. It's just because of the advice of this person, they are now perceived as being disloyal. And that is something the President thinks is very important and has actually fired these people as a result.
To contrast that with what we learned about last week, where the National Security Adviser himself convened a meeting of Cabinet-level officials on a commercially available messaging app in which they discussed classified military information along with sensitive foreign policy discussions.
[20:40:13]
And no one from that conversation, no one who was involved in putting that sort of information out on an unregistered system was disciplined or fired. So clearly that's not important to the President.
BERMAN: So, Brett, what does this tell us about Mike Waltz? And how much more complicated it will be for him to do his job?
BRETT MCGURK, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: You know, John, I served on the National Security Council for four years under George W. Bush. I served on the NSC, the National Security Council of the White House, for four years under Joe Biden. I've been a presidential envoy for Trump and Obama.
I have taught National Security Council decision making at Stanford. I've never heard of something like this. And for the National Security Adviser to be in the Oval Office as basically his staff, people I understand that he handpicked, including a former staffer of his in Congress, are being fired.
And to let that happen just shows you've lost complete control of your own staff. And, look, the country, we need a strong National Security Council. This is where all the elements of power to protect the country, diplomacy, intelligence, sanctions, military power, kind of come together to be coordinated.
And you're just seeing a complete breakdown here. So I think it's very difficult to stay in a position if you can't even pick your own people. And then the other reports out of the signal crisis is that the Vice President and others want him to be fired.
I like Mike Waltz. We work closely together in the transition. I thought we had a very good transition, actually. Worked together to get a ceasefire in Gaza, hostages out. But this seems almost just untenable for any National Security Adviser and unprecedented.
BERMAN: Is this something, Brett, that you walk out on? I mean, do you leave the job if you're Mike Waltz in this situation?
MCGURK: I think leadership one-on-one, you would want to say, look, this is my team. If you want to get rid of them, you've got to get rid of me. And you've got to stand up for your people. A National Security Adviser needs his people to speak the truth every day.
What are you seeing in the intelligence? What are you seeing in the reporting? What are the threats coming? And so to not be able to protect your own staff from something like this, I just -- it's highly problematic for someone in that position. So I don't know. It's really tough and untenable.
But I would say a leader should stand up for his team. Or you say, you know, I'm -- get rid of me, not my staff. They're my staff. I pick these people.
BERMAN: Andrew, as we mentioned, the Defense Department inspector general has launched a probe into the whole Signalgate issue. Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth putting very sensitive information on this and whether or not he complied with classified records or attention and things.
How intensive do you think this investigation will be? How far do you think Hegseth will comply? How much does he have to comply?
MCCABE: Well, you know, John, as with a lot of things in Washington, it's not a question of whether you have to or not. It's a question of whether you should or not, right? The heads of agencies routinely comply with the inquiries of their inspectors general, whether it's the Department of Justice or any other department, because this is the way that you encourage fair and equitable and thorough oversight of what your organization is doing.
So he should comply with this investigation. The investigation should be broadly scoped and thorough and the results of the investigation should be transparent to the entire country. Now, whether any of that will happen, that's a really good question and we'll have to wait and see.
But I think, you know, this is a bold move by the DOD inspector general, because it's the only investigative interest that we have seen relative to this controversy since it broke open. The Justice Department's been very clear that they see no reason to look into anything here, which is remarkable to me and I think an abdication of their responsibility. But nevertheless, our -- we'll have to watch very closely what the IG gets to accomplish.
BERMAN: Indeed, we will. All right, Andrew McCabe, Brett McGurk, thank you both so much for being with us tonight.
We do have breaking news from the President more, this time on Elon Musk, namely on his future with the administration. And later, new reporting on Mel Gibson and, yes, lethal weapons.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:49:11]
BERMAN: All right, some breaking news on Elon Musk and President Trump tonight. Musk, of course, became personally invested in that Wisconsin Supreme Court case this week, both in time hosting a rally on Sunday in Green Bay and in money, spending more than 20 million dollars.
But after his preferred candidate lost by 10 points, talk inside the Beltway quickly turned from calling Musk a kingmaker to a potential political liability. President Trump was asked about Musk's future in his administration this evening on Air Force One.
TRUMP: I think Elon's great. But he also has a company to run or a number of companies to run -- that can do this, that he can find the time. He loves the country, that's why he does it. But we're in no rush. But there will be a point at which time Elon's going to have to leave.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But (inaudible) a date, a specific date on when he's (inaudible)?
TRUMP: I would think a few months.
(END VIDEOCLIP)
[20:50:02]
BERMAN: For more on all things Elon Musk, I want to bring in Kara Swisher, a CNN contributor and author of "Burn Book: A Tech Love Story". You know, Kara, the President went on to say he wants Musk to stay as long as possible and expressed an openness to appointing him to another position in the administration. How much do you think that Musk would want to do that at this point?
KARA SWISHER, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, he's got to attend to his businesses. Obviously, Tesla's in a bit of a free fall. This is the whole stock market. But in general, Tesla's really seen some fall off because of declining car sales, even as other EVs are doing pretty well or have been doing pretty well. So he probably wants to focus on that.
Also, the situation in Wisconsin is a big mess, no matter how they try to spin it and say they knew it was going to happen. It was a test or positional gain or whatever words they want to use. It was a disaster. And he's repellent to voters without Trump next to him.
So, you know, I'm sure a lot of -- not everybody in the Trump administration loves Elon Musk rolling over them. And so, you know, he probably -- he could be an adviser, I guess, at some point. I suspect he will not be running DOGE as he is running DOGE, despite the fact they pretend someone else is. More than another couple of months, I think he's probably worn out his welcome a little bit.
BERMAN: One of the things that you said that I found really interesting, and you've watched Musk for years, is that he always just moves on to the next thing. Do you think he --
SWISHER: Yes.
BERMAN: -- views the United States government like a thing?
SWISHER: Oh, no. I mean, what I was talking about is that, you know, after he lost in Wisconsin, I think Jake Tapper asked me if he was going to keep doing this. I'm like, absolutely. This guy blows up rockets, and most of them blow up, and some of them work.
I think eight of the 10 -- eight -- no, six of the eight Starship launches have been failures by blowing up, essentially, or being some other problem. But two have worked. And so this is the way he operates.
He's a very big risk taker. And so he'll keep doing this investment in primaries and things that matter to him. He just has to adjust the way he handles things, maybe not wear a cheesehead and talk down to Wisconsinites, I guess. They didn't like that so much, obviously.
BERMAN: You know, what he does -- they did not obviously like it so much --
SWISHER: Yes.
BERMAN: -- as you can tell by the results there.
SWISHER: Yes.
BERMAN: When he does move from this semi-official position inside the White House, how much do you think he wants to keep an advisory role or an active role or his fingers in the pie?
SWISHER: Well, as long as it benefits his businesses, this is critically important. You have Mark Zuckerberg buying a $23 million house here in D.C. They're all sort of lining up at the trough to get, you know, sweet, sweet A.I. money, essentially, or dominance in that area. And so they all want to get some sort of tax break or advantage.
So I don't see him leaving anytime soon, because all of his businesses have critical federal government contracts, really important to his businesses. And over the many years, he's gotten tens of billions of dollars from that.
So I don't see him going away as much as some might want him to. But he's just not a particularly good politician. He's not appealing to most voters. He sort of rubs them the wrong way. As to, you know, without Trump next to people, often the Republicans tend to fail. So with Trump next to him, he does just fine, I think. It's just by himself.
BERMAN: When we talk about what happened in Wisconsin, and you've obviously heard some Republicans now look at Musk as a bit of a political liability there. How much do you think he cares --
SWISHER: Yes.
BERMAN: -- about that?
SWISHER: I don't think he cares at all. Why should he? I mean, you know, I think he'll put money to use if he needs to. It's just maybe money doesn't work so well as much. You know, and there's a lot of rich people. So a lot of rich people put money to use.
I think it's his, you know, he kind of makes a nuisance of himself in terms of jumping up and down and, look at me, look at me, I'm doing the checks. And in some cases, that works. In the presidential race, it worked. In this case, a lot of people in Wisconsin were like, what's this guy doing here? Who is he?
You know, if he shows up in Colorado, it's like, why is he in Colorado? He doesn't have any businesses and stuff like that. So he's got to pick carefully where he does his fights. But I think he'll still be funding these things for as long as he thinks it gives him advantage.
And again, look at where he gets business advantage. And that's where I tend to look with this guy more than anything.
BERMAN: Kara Swisher, always great speaking to you. Thanks so much for being with us tonight.
SWISHER: Thank you.
BERMAN: Next, a new report that actor Mel Gibson is likely applauding. We're going to explain that in just a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:58:47]
BERMAN: All right. Tonight, the New York Times is reporting that the Justice Department will restore gun rights to actor and Trump supporter Mel Gibson. You may recall last month the Department of Justice pardon attorney said she was fired because she opposed the move.
That attorney told The Times she resisted because of Gibson's 2011 conviction for a misdemeanor domestic violence matter. According to The Times, a lawyer for Gibson asked the Trump administration to restore his gun rights because in recent years he tried to purchase a weapon in Nevada but was denied due to the conviction. The day after the pardon lawyer's firing, Gibson attended a UFC event with FBI Director Kash Patel in Las Vegas, which brings us to tonight. The Times reporting that Attorney General Pam Bondi approved restoring gun rights to nine others along with Mel Gibson, but it does remain to be seen if any of them will actually be able to own a gun since each state has laws on who can legally own a firearm.
We do have a couple quick programming notes tonight from firing researchers studying opioid addiction to delaying clinical trials to treat cancer. The Elon Musk team is making controversial cuts to the federal government.
Don't miss "The War on Government: A Fareed Zakaria Special", that's Sunday at 8:00 p.m. Eastern and Pacific right here on CNN. And following that at 9:00, her fashionable looks and outrageous lies took social media by storm. How Anna Delvey now -- Anna Delvey talks to Jake Tapper about her infamous time in the spotlight, a new episode of United States of Scandal.
I'll be back on tomorrow morning when the markets open at 9:30. Brace yourself, that one could be something too. That's all for us tonight.
The news continues. The Source with Kaitlan Collins starts now.
