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Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees
Police: 2 Dead, 5 Others Shot at Florida State University; Interview with Rep. Daniel Goldman (D-NY); Appeals Court Rips into Trump Administration's Handling of Deportations. Appeals Court Rips Into Trump Admin's Handling Of Deportations; Trump Lashes Out After Fed Chair Describes Tariffs As "Significantly Larger Than Anticipated"; Cutbacks In Federal Funding Leave Some Migrant Children To Navigate Immigration Court Without A Lawyer; Drugmaker Eli Lilly Says Experimental New Pill Helped People With Diabetes Lose Weight And Lower Blood Sugar. Aired 8-9p ET
Aired April 17, 2025 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA REID, CNN CHIEF LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: ... chairman, Senator Chuck Grassley, says he doesn't intend to hold one because that is not something the committee has done for a U.S. attorney in 40 years.
Now, we did reach out to Martin on this great new reporting from Em Steck, Annie Grayer and Andrew Kaczynski. His office referred CNN to the White House, which did not respond -- Kate.
KATE BOLDUAN, CNN Host: Paula, thank you so much. It is great to see you. I really appreciate your time. We'll continue to follow all the breaking news that is the tragedy that has been playing out before as in Florida continue that breaking news coverage. Thanks for joining us, AC360 starts now.
[20:00:35]
JOHN BERMAN, CNN HOST: Tonight on 360, all we are learning about the deadly mass shooting at Florida State University committed police say, by a son of a law enforcement officer.
Also, tonight, the administration gets a stunning court rebuke over how they are answering for the mistaken deportation of this man, saying the government's arguments would reduce the law to lawlessness.
And later, the President who hired him is now talking loudly and a lot about getting rid of the Fed chief he hired, a move which could hit your 401(k) even harder.
John Berman here in for Anderson. It is impossible to say good evening tonight because it's not. A gunman on a college campus saw to that this time, because it is far from the first. It happened at Florida State University in Tallahassee just before lunchtime. You're watching video of students being evacuated from one campus building, and there is video of the shooting itself, which happened near the Student Union. Now, this is tough to watch. We've blurred a portion of it so as not to show one of the wounded.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(GUNSHOTS)
(Bleep) (Bleep)
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BERMAN: Now, when it was over, two people were dead, five were wounded. So was the suspected gunman shot by authorities, they said. And late today, the local sheriff revealed what must have been for him a doubly painful detail.
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SHERIFF WALT MCNEIL, LEON COUNTY: He's a son of a Leon County Sheriff Deputy. Her service to this community has been exceptional. Unfortunately, her son had access to one of her weapons. And that was one of the weapons that was found at the scene.
The alleged shooter was also a long standing member of the Leon County Sheriff's Office Citizen Advisory or Youth Advisory Council.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BERMAN: So at the White House late today, the President weighed in, calling what happened, "a shame," but also adding this.
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DONALD TRUMP (R) PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: Look, I'm a big advocate of the Second Amendment. I have been from the beginning. I protected it, and these things are terrible. But the gun doesn't do the shooting. The people do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BERMAN: All right. CNN's Nick Valencia is in Tallahassee tonight. He joins us now. Nick, what more are you learning from authorities tonight?
NICK VALENCIA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, John, since that press conference earlier today, investigators haven't really said much. Big question we have for them is motive. But that may be a question they have right now at this hour themselves. They told us during that press conference that the alleged gunman is not cooperating with them, invoking his Fifth Amendment right.
Another legal question lingering here is will the mother face any charges? We've seen charges come towards parents of these alleged gunman in mass shootings previously, and we know of the three weapons that were recovered from the scene. One of them was the personal use handgun of that Leon County sheriff's deputy, which previously was her service deputy, but she then used it as a personal use.
How he got his hands on that gun to carry out what he allegedly carried out here today is also a big question mark right now at this hour -- John.
BERMAN: And Nick, you've been on the ground. You've been talking to people there. You've been talking to witnesses who were on the scene. What have you learned from them?
VALENCIA: Just a heartbreaking tragedy this hour. I think the shock of what they went through is really starting to settle in. And I spoke to one of those witnesses who actually became a first responder, Father Luke Farabaugh. His church is just off camera here, and they're actually carrying out mass. It's Holy Week, and they had planned a mass scheduled for Thursday and they thought that that safe space needed to happen for fellowship, for everyone that went through this tragedy earlier today.
Listen to him describe what he saw here on campus earlier this morning.
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FATHER LUKE FARABAUGH, WITNESS: When I was able to determine that this is not, you know, party pops, these were actual gunfire. Then from there, I went to the church and I heard more gunfire on the way. And I asked the students that were there in the parking lot to get to our buildings. And as that happened, I went to the church and more people from campus were directly across the street. Just to my left is campus, and then right behind me is our church. And people were coming with faces of terror, and it was fear that I had not seen before. And it was very, I mean, it really shakes you up.
And so, as they were coming in, we secured the building and we only had one entrance available so we could see who's coming in. And I was personally concerned about stray bullets because I knew that it was coming from very close by. But we were able to help people and there was a lot of shock and I was able to go that campus pretty soon after that to see if anybody needed an anointing of the sick. Something we provide as a church's -- the sacraments in times like this.
And so, unfortunately, the crime scene had already started to be established so that I didn't want to press. And so, I did see, you know, a body at that time.
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[20:05:39]
VALENCIA: Father Luke said not lost on him is that this happened during Holy Week, which for him and Catholics is all about a life of service. And he said so many people here were thrust into a life of service because of the tragedy that happened here this morning -- John.
BERMAN: Fear that I have not seen before. Those are just chilling words, Nick. What information do you have, if any, tonight about the victims?
VALENCIA: Well, those victims, limited details right now. We know those two that were killed by this alleged gunman were not students at FSU. And we know those others that were injured in this shooting are listed by the hospital here locally is in stable condition, but very little else is known. A lot of questions going forward. We're grateful to be here to ask those questions and get some answers -- John.
BERMAN: And were grateful to have you there, Nick. I know it's difficult work, but we appreciate you on the ground.
All right, with me here tonight, CNN chief law enforcement and intelligence analyst John Miller and former secret service agent Jonathan Wackrow, who is also a CNN law enforcement analyst. And John Miller, first to you. Look, obviously, we've covered a lot of school shootings, but have we ever seen the suspected gunman be the child of a law enforcement officer?
JOHN MILLER, CNN CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT AND INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: I've been doing this at least since Columbine, which is a long time ago, and I can't remember a case like that. That doesn't mean there hasn't been one. But one thing I have to point out is you really have to commend Walt McNeil, the sheriff of Leon County, for stepping up at the news conference and putting that out. I've got to say, and you've all seen this where there's a controversial element that's going to be embarrassing, that's going to be concerning where they figure, well, we'll wait for it to come out later. We'll try to, you know, deal with it, you know/
At this point he put it right on the table and all the details he had, which is the way to do it.
BERMAN: It was right away. So what steps now, John Miller on determining a motive or planning that went into it.
MILLER: So, they don't know the answer to that. And as Jonathan would agree, there's a number of steps that are natural. You get to the house, you get the search warrant, you get to the computer, you start digging, if you can get through the entry codes, you do the same with the phones. You look at notes and planning. A lot of these things are spontaneous, and some of them have sometimes weeks and months of planning. They'll go to that.
In the meantime, they're looking at fragments. A couple of interesting tells. He was quoted in the student newspaper back in January. And I think we can go to that quote where he is at a demonstration, which is a Students for Democratic Society Demonstration, against the election of President Trump, and he says these people are usually pretty entertaining, not for good reasons. I think it's a little too late. He -- meaning Trump is already going to be inaugurated on January 20th, and there's not really much you can do. So, it's not a hate filled quote. It's a sardonic, it's a sarcastic quote, but that particular group was later suspended from campus for interrupting a meeting with pro-Palestinian chants. And they had a march today planned for the location where the shooting happened. So, the question is, is there a connection there? But they need to see his social media, get his views, figure out if about three hours earlier than this march was planned, was there supposed to be a meeting of the group prior to that? But again, these are just fragments, right now, they are looking across so many things to see what was behind it.
BERMAN: So, Jonathan, one factor here was he was on the youth advisory board for the Sheriff's Department. What insight might that have given him to the law enforcement response?
JONATHAN WACKROW, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Well, it's not just being part of that youth advisory board, it is the fact that he is the son of an active law enforcement member. He has greater insight or greater awareness of police response to these critical events. They've probably talked about it at home. They've probably definitely talked about it during this Youth Advisory Council and had an awareness of what officers do when they're responding.
And what they're doing, the primary responsibility of any law enforcement officer responding to an active shooter situation is to stop the potential killing in progress.
Go to the threat, neutralize the threat as fast as possible, make the situation as safe as possible. He knew that. So with that context, he knew the consequences of his action. He knew that if he went to this school, that and started firing a weapon, there's only a few ways that this was going to play out and he knew that.
So, he knew the consequences of these actions. Again, motive is going to be really interesting to figure out what's going on here. But what we have to understand is that in these situations, almost all of the time, it's in reaction to some sort of grievance. And in this case, it may not be grievance for an individual, it may be a grievance towards the entity itself, the school itself.
[20:10:29]
BERMAN: What you're suggesting is possible he went into this wanting to die, suicide by cop. That is certainly something no doubt they'll explore when he was taken into custody. Jonathan, he's not speaking to law enforcement. He is invoking his right to remain silent. What does that tell you?
WACKROW: Well, again, he is a product of the environment that he was around from his mother, from, you know, the Youth Advisory Council being in that law enforcement, he knows to be quiet at this point in time.
BERMAN: So yeah, one of the things John Miller that we've seen here, which is interesting, we've seen parents of school shooters now prosecuted for not being responsible for weapons, providing weapons and whatnot depending on the House.
This suspect is 20 years old, an adult. So, does that put any liability or remove liability on the parents? MILLER: Well, it does because Florida does have a safe storage law that's on the books. But its targeted if there are minors in the house. And there's also the factor of he had his mother's former service weapon, her personal weapon. But there were -- we are told, two other weapons there, including a rifle that witnesses see him shoot. So, whether he had access to that, because they used to shoot together, go to the range together. He's 20 years old. Perhaps he was familiar with gun safety.
I'm not sure the outcome would have been changed if that had been locked up, if he had his own shotgun and another weapon. So, I don't see the criminal piece. I think you're going to see the civil piece come along down the road where people are saying, what was his state of mind, and why was he in a house where he had access to weapons?
BERMAN: What more is there to learn from the guns at this point?
WACKROW: Well, right now it's, you know, the access to guns, you know. Did he have access to it or did he forcibly try to gain access to get it, right, again, it goes to the motive. When we start bringing this mosaic together of all these different data bits to piece together. Why did somebody, you know, engage in this act and what type of capabilities did they have?
We know that he had the means. He had the opportunity. He had the intent to cause harm, and the capability was the gun. And so, all of it, you know, plays a very important role to understand. Why did he select the handgun as opposed to something else to start this attack?
BERMAN: So, two killed, now five wounded. What do authorities do you think want to learn "A" from the identity of those who were killed, John Miller and "B" from those who were wounded?
MILLER: They're going to want to know whether these were random victims or whether they were chosen victims. Was he there to attack a particular group or type of person? We've seen every variant of this from I shot everybody I saw to I only targeted minorities, or I only targeted people from this group. They're going to want to know that because it also goes to motive.
BERMAN: And one thing we do know is law enforcement responded very, very quickly. As bad as it was, it could have been worse. But still two dead, five wounded in a community mourning tonight. Jonathan Wackrow, John Miller, thank you both for being here, I appreciate it. Thanks, John.
Next, an appeals court rules in the case of the mistakenly deported man. And its message to the Trump administration, as you will see, is simply remarkable.
And later, the President's message to the Federal Reserve chairman he wants him gone, what the markets could make of it and, crucially, what neutering the Fed could do to the economy.
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[20:18:05]
BERMAN: So, anyone wondering whether you lose your edge after 40 years on the job, got a reminder today from a judge on the Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals and that answer is no.
Judge Harvey Wilkinson, appointed to the bench by Ronald Reagan in 1984, made it amply clear what that opinion which and this is a legal term, ripped the Trump administration a new one. Writing for the majority in the case of the mistakenly deported, Kilmar Abrego Garcia, Judge Wilkinson backed the district court's effort to get answers from the administration and was sharply critical of claims the government is making, saying they should be, "shocking not only to judges but to the intuitive sense of liberty that Americans far removed from courthouses still hold dear.
The government's argument, he wrote, would "reduce the rule of law to lawlessness and tarnish the very values for which Americans have diverse views and persuasions have always stood.
As for the administration's claim that it is obeying the lower court's order, which the Supreme Court upheld to facilitate Abrego Garcia's return from that prison camp in El Salvador, judge Wilkinson writes, facilitate is an active verb. It requires that steps be taken, as the Supreme Court has made perfectly clear.
With me now, New York Democratic Congressman Dan Goldman, who sits on the House Judiciary and Homeland Security Committees. And, Congressman, you obviously went to law school.
The legal term getting ripped a new one. You're familiar with that? What do you think the significance of this ruling was?
REP. DAN GOLDMAN (D-NY): Well, I actually think the significance of it is much broader than the specific targeting of the issues in this case. Judge Wilkinson, who is notoriously well-known as a very conservative judge on the Fourth Circuit, wrote what it will go down as I think one of the most. Powerful recitations of making the case for the rule of law that we have seen.
And yes, he chastised the Trump administration and obviously says what we all know, which is facilitate, requires you to actually do something, not just claim that you have no power. But the way that he breaks down the separation of powers and the rule of law, and explains why it is so important, is a lesson that every American should take, and every American should read this opinion. It's short. It is remarkable.
[20:20:25]
BERMAN: Seven pages, it is worth the read. In it, Judge Wilkinson says, "If today the executive claims the right to deport without due process and in disregard of court orders, what assurance will there be tomorrow that it will not deport American citizens and then disclaim responsibility to bring them home? And what assurance shall there be that the executives will not train its broad discretionary powers upon its political enemies?" GOLDMAN: So this was a shot at Donald Trump, in my view, because the two hypothetical examples he used are two things that Donald Trump has discussed or talked about or actually done. He has mentioned recently this week, sending American citizens to this torture chamber in El Salvador, which, by the way, that prison would be unconstitutional in this country because of cruel and unusual punishment. And then he also references that Trump directed the Department of Justice to criminally investigate Chris Krebs and Miles Taylor because they spoke out against Donald Trump.
So these are not just normal law school hypotheticals. These were very specifically targeted at Donald Trump as a warning shot to simmer down here because you are far, far, far out over your Democratic skis.
BERMAN: There were -- some Republicans and supporters of President Trump who kind of dined out for days on the word facilitate and suggested that the word facilitate didn't mean they had to take active steps here. And really, Judge Wilkinson seemed to make clear he thinks they need to do stuff to get Abrego Garcia back, take action. How significant is that?
GOLDMAN: Well, it's especially significant because there's a very simple action that pretty clearly would get Abrego Garcia back. The administration is paying El Salvador to hold all of these individuals. If they were to stop paying for Abrego Garcia, even the El Salvadoran Vice President said to Senator Chris Van Hollen, well, were keeping it because they're paying us to keep him, so stop paying him. And then they're likely to send him back. They haven't even done that, which is the most basic thing that they can do.
So I think where Judge Wilkinson is coming from is what we all see, which is first of all, and he talks about this and I think its powerful, which is, yes, there's the legal analysis facilitate versus effectuate. And what does they what do they actually have to do. And whether judges can infringe on foreign power.
Yes, that is all important but let's just talk about the basic morality. And Judge Wilkinson talks about that. He says you have admitted that you were wrong to remove him and deport him. Why will you not make that wrong right? It's just basic morality, basic human decency to let him come back.
Now, he very well, as Judge Wilkinson says, very well may be an MS-13 gang member, but that's the point of due process, which is that the government can then go to the court -- the immigration court, provide whatever evidence it has, and if it meets a preponderance of the evidence, then he can be determined to be a member of MS-13 and now that it is a foreign terrorist organization, they can change this withholding order and allow him to be deported.
But they have to go through that process just like every single person in this country needs to be able to go through that process. Otherwise, we do not have a system based on the rule of law. We have a dictatorship where the king can just decide whether or not the law applies and to whom. BERMAN: You mentioned Chris Van Hollen, Senator from Maryland, who went down to try to even just speak to Mr. Abrego Garcia and he was not allowed to. I spoke to other Democratic members of the House, your colleagues in the House who are about to go down. I guess my question to you is, for what? I mean, how what are they going to get that Van Hollen didn't get? What's the point now?
GOLDMAN: Well, I thought that Senator Van Hollen going down there because Mr. Abrego Garcia lives in his state made some sense, and we got a lot of information out of it. I mean, the conversation that he had with the El Salvadoran Vice President exposed to us that they have no evidence that Abrego Garcia is connected to MS-13 and that they would likely return him if we -- if we the government stopped paying for him.
So, I think there's the possibility of getting more information out there and also to raise and amplify the issue which is top of mind for many people right now. And it's not that anyone is defending Mr. Abrego Garcia as whether he should remain here or not.
[20:25:11]
It is just due process is so fundamental to our system of government that and without it. And this is just such a good example of why? Because if he had due process, he would not have been removed, then they would have had to go through the process of proving it. And this is why due process matters. So, you don't make mistakes like this. And so that you do have a neutral arbiter that decides the law, not the executive branch, which obviously has their own policy and political interests at play and needs to be checked and balanced by the courts.
BERMAN: I want to ask you one question a little bit off this subject. It has to do with Senator Lisa Murkowski, Independent from Alaska, although she does vote with the Republicans in the Senate, she's been critical of President Trump at times. And she was asked what she would say to people who were afraid or represent those who were afraid right now of just the politics at play. Listen to what she said.
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SEN. LISA MURKOWSKI (I-AK): We are all afraid. Okay? It going to say I'm oftentimes very anxious myself about using my voice. Because retaliation is real. And that's not right.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BERMAN: She's anxious about using her voice because the retaliation is real, she says.
Is that something that you can perceive in the House, maybe among some of your Republican colleagues?
GOLDMAN: I have not heard it directly, but the fact that Donald Trump rules by threat and fiat has come out and has a real chilling effect on members of Congress and mostly Republicans. And Mitt Romney had a whole chapter in his book about how a Republican colleague of his told him that he changed his vote because he was fearful for his family's safety.
And you now have Donald Trump, who has a cult following behind him and threatens people, attacks them if they cross him as well now, he released and pardoned a militia of January 6th, criminal convicts who will do anything he says. And so, there's got to be thoughts of this. And let me just explain for a minute why that's so dangerous. Okay, you might say, all right, well, that's, you know, a hazard of the job, but think about whether any of us want to vote a certain way, but because we fear for our personal safety or our family's personal safety, we decide to vote differently.
We are no longer representing our constituents. We are representing something else, something else, more like the person, the bully who's threatening us. That is how Vladimir Putin operates. That is how Viktor Orban operates. That is how dictators operate. And that's how our democracy dies. Because if you are not voting based on the merits and the substance and your voters and constituents, then you are not a representative elected official and you are not part of a truly Democratic body.
BERMAN: Congressman Dan Goldman, I do appreciate your time. Weighty subjects, thanks for coming in tonight.
GOLDMAN: Thank you -- John.
BERMAN: All right, the President weighed in today about the Abrego Garcia case we were just talking about. This is what he said when asked what he would do if the lower court judge held members of his administration in contempt, namely, would he take steps to return Abrego Garcia to this country so he can go in front of a judge?
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TRUMP: Well, I'm not involved in it. I'm going to respond by saying, you'll have to speak to the lawyers, the DOJ. I've heard many things about him, and, well have to find out what the truth is. I was elected to get rid of those criminals, to get them out of our country or to put them away, but to get them out of our country. And I don't see how judges can take that authority away from a President.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BERMAN: The President, you will recall, has said he would return Abrego Garcia if the Supreme Court ordered him. To which the court, as you know, has yet to explicitly do.
With us now is CNN senior legal analyst Elie Honig. Elie, great to see you. Look, we had your former SDNY colleague, Congressman Dan Goldman here talking about the larger significance of this, this ruling from Judge Harvey Wilkinson here.
And you've looked at it also, and again, it's more than just the seven pages.
ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: It really is. I think this is a plea, John. I think this opinion is a plea to rationality, to sanity and to respect for the law. And I think it's aimed at two places. It is explicitly aimed at the executive branch. At times, Judge Wilkinson, a staunch, widely respected conservative at times Judge Wilkinson uses very pointed language to criticize the Trump administration. Rightly so, as you just discussed.
At other times, he sort of uses a gentler approach and says, essentially, we prevail upon our good colleagues in the executive branch to do the right thing here.
I also think, though, Judge Wilkinson is writing here for the U.S. Supreme Court, because this is one of the very few appellate court judges in the country who has real sway with the Justice Scalias, Alitos, Gorsuchs et cetera. And I think he's anticipating, probably correctly, that this case will, one way or another, wind up at the Supreme Court. And I think he's inviting, exhorting the Supreme Court, we need you to get more firm and more specific here, the stakes are too high.
JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: You, Supreme Court, need to pay attention to this. And there's one section which gets to a little bit of this. He says, "Now the branches come close to grinding irrevocably against one another in a conflict that promises to diminish both".
It goes on to say, "The executive may succeed for a time in weakening the courts, but over time, history will script the tragic gap between what was and all that might have been, and law and time will sign its epitaph." And law and time will sign its epitaph.
HONIG: Put that on a monument. I mean, what a remarkable statement. What he's saying here, and I read this, I tried to parse this very carefully, essentially is, look, he acknowledges in the short term, the executive branch will do what it will do, and there's not a whole heck of a lot we, the courts, can do about it.
We rely on the power of words, the power of suasion. But ultimately, the courts and the law will rule. When history looks back at this, it will not look fondly on you, executive branch, if you continue to defy the law. I think that's a very powerful way that he says that.
BERMAN: It read a little bit like Martin Luther King, Jr. The arc of moral history is long --
HONIG: Yes.
BERMAN: -- but it bends towards justice.
HONIG: Yes. And, you know, this whole, by the way, this is a beautiful exercise in writing. I mean --
BERMAN: Yes.
HONIG: -- it's got the highfalutin language, but it's also very clear. I mean, at one point he says, both countries here are saying there's nothing they can do. How can that be? You made an error, executive branch. Why won't you fix it? I mean, so law students out there, read this thing, learn from it. It's a work of -- law work of art. BERMAN: Not just law students. I think everyone can take something from this, everyone who likes democracy.
Elie Honig, thank you --
HONIG: Thanks, John.
BERMAN: -- very much.
Next, the President's threat to the Fed chairman's job and what that could lead to. Plus, what some of the President's Palm Beach neighbors make of the job he's doing so far.
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[20:37:10]
BERMAN: So just a day after Fed Chair Jerome Powell said tariffs could lead to higher prices and slower growth, the President who appointed him threatened him with unemployment.
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DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: If I ask him to, he'll be out of there. I'm not happy with him. I let him know it. And if I want him out, he'll be out of there real fast. Believe me.
(END VIDEOCLIP)
BERMAN: Now, there is some question as to whether the President can fire Powell at all. Last night of the program, CNN's Richard Quest said it would be disastrous if he would, warning that the markets, and these are Richard's words, would collapse, when Richard said it was more like would collapse.
Today, they merely treaded water with the Dow sinking on other news, while the Nasdaq and S&P ended the day almost unchanged.
Some perspective now from CNN Senior Political Analyst Ron Brownstein and CNN Global Economic Analyst Rana Foroohar. She's also a global business columnist for the Financial Times.
Rana, let me just start with you. So the President, in a Truth Social post, said that Jerome Powell's termination can't come soon enough. I mean, he's really walking right up into the line right there. So, you know, what do you think would happen if he moved to get rid of Powell?
RANA FOROOHAR, CNN GLOBAL ECONOMIC ANALYST: I think it would be a major market event. I won't try and imitate Richard's accent. But, no, for sure, because think about the kind of scenarios in which central bankers get fired.
This is what happens in emerging markets that are in collapse. I mean, this happened in Turkey. They now have interest rates at 46 percent. You know, this is what happens when you are really, really teetering on the brink of stability. Markets do not want to see that. It would also mean upending 90 years of legal precedent. I mean, these are exactly the kinds of things that investors do not want more of right now.
BERMAN: That's sort of the economic cost, Ron. What about the political cost to doing something like firing Jerome Powell?
RON BROWNSTEIN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, you know, in Trump's first term, confidence in his management of the economy was his most consistent political strength. Already in his second term, doubts about his management of the economy, I think, are his most conspicuous political vulnerability. And this would only add to that.
You know, if you look, Trump's disapproval rating on the economy now is running off at 55 percent, 56 percent. He almost never reached 50 percent disapproval at any point during his first term in any of the major polls.
And, you know, I think what he's facing is initially a sense among voters that he was ignoring or slighting the problem that they elected him above all to solve, which was getting their cost of living under control. I think he's moving into a second kind of generation of threat here, where voters are -- not so much that he's ignoring the problem, but compounding the problem.
If you look at the polling last weekend from CBS/YouGov, it was one number, John, I think is really worth drawing a red line under. By more than two to one, voters now think that Trump's agenda is making them worse off rather than better off. Among Hispanics, it's nearly four to one worse off than better off.
[20:40:07]
And Hispanics are the most important group where he gained in '24. That was the kind of finding that was an early warning of the problems that Biden would run into. And I think firing Powell against that backdrop or attempting to and precipitating the legal actions would be a pretty dangerous move for the President, not only in terms of the markets, but politically.
BERMAN: You know, and then there's the question, Rana, of who he would replace --
FOROOHAR: Right.
BERMAN: -- Powell with. Because presumably if he's going to handpick and actually dictate Fed policy, which is what he wants to do, he'd find someone who will lower interest rates in the face, probably, of rising inflation. So what do you get when you get someone lowering interest rates while prices are rising?
FOROOHAR: A really chaotic market situation. I mean, you could potentially exacerbate inflation. You could, you know, trigger an even steeper slowdown than what we may already be seeing. The point here is that Jerome Powell has done a pretty darn good job of walking a fine line. And at this particular moment, when you may be going into a stagflationary environment, that means you're getting a slowdown and inflation. In the best case scenario, that's a really difficult point to be making policy, right? Because, you know, you may need to raise rates without trying to, you know, collapse the economy at the same time. It's tricky.
It is not the kind of thing that you want, you know, one of Trump's buddies or a political appointee that doesn't have the kind of expertise that Powell does doing that job right now.
BERMAN: You know, Ron, since the inauguration, since the election of President Trump to a second term last November, people have been saying the checks that were there in his first term would be gone.
BROWNSTEIN: Yes.
BERMAN: There would be no guardrails this time. Is the bond market a guardrail?
BROWNSTEIN: Yes, I mean, it's interesting. I mean, he -- the President certainly has been willing to accept more turbulence in the stock market than many people expected or may have hoped. The bond market certainly got his attention, right, in a, you know, in a very quick way.
And it's something that is more immediate to him than maybe the political consequences, since unless he is, in fact, trying to undermine the Constitution and run a third time, which I don't rule out, he won't face voters again. Members of Congress can't be quite as sanguine.
You know, John, one thing that really strikes me about this entire episode is that even if he succeeds beyond his wildest dreams in terms of having the tariffs compel companies to create more manufacturing jobs in the U.S., in the best case scenario, he might go from something like the current 12.7 million people working in manufacturing, maybe 15.7 or something, 350 million people paying more for everyday goods against that, it's a tough political equation to make work out.
BERMAN: It's interesting to see in the next weeks. Who knows what they will bear?
Ron Brownstein, Rana Foroohar, great to see you both. And I thank you very much.
In recent weeks, we've heard from a number of Americans impacted by the President's tariffs. But what about folks who live in his backyard, so to speak? What do they think about his handling of the economy and his threat to fire Jerome Powell as Fed chair?
360's Randi Kaye is in West Palm Beach, Florida tonight. Randi?
RANDI KAYE, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: John, we spent some time earlier today on Palm Beach Island, not far from Mar-a-Lago. We were talking to folks about Trump's handling of the economy and also about his latest spat with Fed chair Jerome Powell.
We talked to Republicans mostly. We also talked to some Democrats and Independents and certainly got an earful about how Donald Trump is doing at the White House. But one thing that everyone agreed on, despite their party affiliation, John, is they are all afraid to look at their 401K.
(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I put more trust, a whole lot more trust in Jerome Powell than Donald Trump, who has no clue as to how the tariffs -- seems to have no clue as to how the tariffs are going to affect all of us.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I wish that Powell would be a little more positive. He opens his mouth and the stock market drops.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: People are waiting for the interest rates to be lowered. And I'm not surprised that Trump would say that Jerome Powell is not doing a good job.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He's been, you know, the head of the Fed. He's a genius at economics. And he's saying this is not going to be a pretty picture.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That's what Trump does. If someone disagrees with him, he gets rid of them.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The Fed is set up to be independent, right? So that's going to -- that should continue to be their role, right? I don't think anyone should have influence over the Fed.
KAYE: How do you think the economy is doing under President Trump?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think it's doing better than where we were.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's like a -- it's like a shit show. You know, it's just too radical and too fast and eliminating jobs and, you know, important positions.
KAYE: Are you looking at your 401K or stock market or?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My financial adviser tells me not to pay attention to it. I don't pay attention to it. Otherwise, I'd be freaking out like everybody else I know that's paying attention to it.
[20:45:03]
KAYE: Are you for the tariffs or against?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Absolutely for. I think it's just something that we've needed to do for a long time that really nobody has had the courage to do, any of our leaders.
KAYE: What's your advice for Trump on the economy, tariffs, trade?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What's my advice to him? You know, let the professionals run the show and just keep his mouth shut a little more.
(END VIDEOCLIP)
KAYE: And John, Jerome Powell has pointed out that federal law prohibits the President from firing the Fed chair, and that's sort of an open question right now given this pending litigation that is before the U.S. Supreme Court, which is considering whether or not Donald Trump has the power to fire the heads of these independent government agencies.
But in talking with folks today, John, they really don't want Donald Trump to spend any of his time trying to figure out how he possibly could fire Jerome Powell. They want him to focus on the more important things, they told us.
BERMAN: Really good to hear those points of view tonight.
Randi Kaye, thank you very much.
Next, while young children are being left to face immigration courts alone, advocates say they may be hardest hit by the Trump administration's crackdown.
And later, a new drug that could provide an alternative to popular ingestible weight loss medications.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:50:51]
BERMAN: We've been talking about public outrage over the Trump administration's aggressive immigration crackdown and the various legal challenges playing out around the country. It's not only alleged gang members fearing deportation. Some of the youngest and most vulnerable in the immigration system may be the hardest hit, as cutbacks in federal funding leave infants and children too young to speak, staring down a confusing immigration system with no representation.
Our Priscilla Alvarez has the story.
(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)
EVELYN FLORES, MANAGING PARALEGAL CHILDREN'S PROGRAM, AMICA CENTER FOR IMMIGRANT RIGHTS (through translation): They had to cross the border of Mexico and the United States.
PRISCILLA ALVAREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This story time starts at the U.S. southern border. It's a tale for children who crossed into the United States alone and are in government custody.
Fulanito, a cartoon cat, is supposed to represent them. The lesson, almost impossible to imagine for a child, how to navigate the U.S. immigration system alone.
FLORES (through translation): A very important right that Fulanito has now that he is in the United States is the right to go to immigration court.
ALVAREZ (voice-over): Evelyn Flores of the Amica Center for Immigrant Rights gives this presentation to kids in custody weekly. And she's not alone. Legal service providers serve a critical role for unaccompanied kids, whether preparing for court or getting ready for school.
Now, those lessons are taking on added significance amid concerns that children will be stripped of the very legal services they need.
ALVAREZ: This image that you share in your storytelling could be all a child has to get through their immigration proceedings.
FLORES: Yes.
ALVAREZ (voice-over): The termination of a federal contract for legal services has left organizations like Amica scrambling, and the thousands of children they and others serve potentially facing deportation proceedings alone.
Without attorneys, advocates say, kids don't stand a chance.
SCOTT BASSETT, MANAGING ATTORNEY, CHILDREN'S PROGRAM, AMICA CENTER FOR IMMIGRANT RIGHTS: The system is just too complicated for a child to succeed alone without an attorney. To ask a 12-year-old to do that without the support of an adult, much less one trained in the complicated world of immigration law, it's just not feasible. It can't happen.
ALVAREZ (voice-over): A child's deportation proceedings start shortly after they cross into the United States, similar to an adult.
WENDY YOUNG, PRESIDENT, KIDS IN NEED OF DEFENSE: I was in a court last summer where a 3-year-old was in proceedings. He played with his toy car in the aisle of the courtroom until he was called, and then a young woman picked him up and brought him to the front of the courtroom.
I knew that child knew something dramatic was about to happen. He started crying. He was inconsolable at that point.
ALVAREZ (voice-over): Under U.S. law, immigrants don't have a right to counsel at the government's expense, not even children, leaving them to depend on volunteer lawyers or NGOs.
YOUNG: Federal support is everything. Without those monies, we would probably see more like 90 percent of these kids going through proceedings without counsel.
ALVAREZ (voice-over): In March, the Trump administration cut off federally funded legal services for 26,000 unaccompanied children in the United States, prompting lawsuits. A federal judge has since ordered the administration to temporarily restore funding, but to date, that hasn't happened.
The uncertainty has led to staff layoffs and disrupted legal services for kids. As the administration cracks down on immigration, experts argue that taking away attorneys will only hurt efforts to get migrant kids to court.
BASSETT: The dinosaur and the unicorn --
ALVAREZ: OK.
BASSETT: -- are huge hits.
ALVAREZ (voice-over): Organizations who work with migrant children often have to get creative to get the kids to open up. Children often color as they share why they fled their home countries and get acquainted with attorneys.
BASSETT: They get thrown off the walls --
ALVAREZ (voice-over): Or they play with stress balls. One group in Michigan even has toy court sets for one-on-one legal screenings with kids.
YOUNG: We'll have toddlers running all over the place, and my staff is explaining to them using toys, crayons, chalkboards, what their rights are in the immigration system. And it's both -- something that's both very poignant, it's very joyful, but there's also a tremendous sense of gravity to it.
ALVAREZ: It's a nursery school where the lesson is how to fight your deportation proceedings.
YOUNG: That's exactly right.
ALVAREZ (voice-over): Priscilla Alvarez, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEO TAPE)
BERMAN: A nursery school.
Next, drugmaker Eli Lilly says it has completed a successful trial of an alternative to popular injectable weight loss and diabetes medications, the new form those drugs may take in the future.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:59:52]
BERMAN: Potentially a major advancement to treat obesity and diabetes tonight. Drugmaker Eli Lilly says it has successfully created a pill that is as effective as those popular injectable drugs, known as GLP- 1s, already on the market.
The drugmaker says those who took the highest dose lost an average of 16 pounds and that side effects were similar to those of the injectable drugs. Lilly says it plans to publish the results later this year and expects to apply for approval as a drug for weight loss by the end of this year than for type 2 diabetes next year.
All right, that is all for us tonight. I will see you tomorrow at 7:00 a.m. alongside Sara Sidner and Kate Bolduan for CNN News Central.
In the meantime, the news continues. The Source with Kaitlan Collins starts now.
