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Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees
Vatican: Pope Died Of Stroke And Heart Failure; White House Denies Report That It Is Looking To Replace Defense Secy. Hegseth Amid Second Signal Chat Controversy. Aired 8-9p ET
Aired April 21, 2025 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
SIMON SANDOVAL-MOSHENBERG, ATTORNEY FOR FATHER WHITE HOUSE SAYS WAS DEPORTED DUE TO "CLERICAL ERROR": It's a very, very short walk to taking trials away from you and me.
ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: All right, Simon, I appreciate your time. Thank you very much and I'm glad to speak with you again.
SANDOVAL-MOSHENBERG: Good to be back.
BURNETT: All right, as we continue to follow that case here.
Thanks so much to all of you for joining us on this Monday. See you back here tomorrow night. It's time now for AC360 with Anderson Cooper.
[20:00:28]
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, "ANDERSON COOPER: 360": Good evening we are coming to you tonight from St. George's Cathedral in London on route to Rome. The Catholic community here and all across the world mourning the death early today at age 88 of Pope Francis just weeks into what was hoped to be recovery from serious lung problems.
A human outpouring befitting more than most, a leader known for his humanity and deep seated humility. Vatican City is quiet right now, except for the sense of absence, which speaks volumes about the moment that we are in, in days yet still to come.
It was, of course, a different story throughout the day as enormous crowds, some of whom had come for what was expected to be a joyous Easter Monday, first learned the news, then stayed to grieve, to lend comfort to others and take solace in the rituals of the sad and solemn moment.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED PRIEST (through translator): In the faith of the Risen Christ, which we celebrate on this Holy Easter day, we know that death is not a door that closes, but the entrance into the heavenly Jerusalem, where mourning is turned into dancing and sackcloth into a robe of joy.
(END VIDEO CLIP) COOPER: Well, Pope Francis died a day after making a brief Easter Sunday appearance to bless thousands of people in St. Peter's Square. Unlike in years past, he did not celebrate mass, but afterwards, when he appeared on the balcony over the entrance to St. Peter's, the crowd erupted. It was in many ways an echo of how his papacy began some 12 years ago, except it's hard to overstate the magnitude of that moment and the change that it represented.
Jorge Mario Bergoglio, the first Pope from the Americas, the first Jesuit Pope, the first to take the name Francis after St. Francis of Assisi, who championed the poor.
A Pope who appeared in the balcony in a simple white cassock, whose first request became a calling card. He asked people to pray for him.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
POPE FRANCIS, HEAD OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH (through translator): I ask that you pray to the Lord so that He blesses me.
Pray for me. Amen.
Pray for me please. Do not forget to pray for me.
Remember to pray for me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Well, Francis quickly established his preference in years ahead. His preference to live a more simple life, not to drive around in fancy cars. Drove in that Fiat there. He lived in humble living arrangements that he had as similar he had as archbishop of Buenos Aires. He moved into a Spartan, two-bedroom dormitory style apartment. Instead of the palatial and lavish suite of rooms and servants his predecessors had enjoyed.
His first visit as Pope outside Rome was to the Italian island of Lampedusa, which was home to the at the time, to thousands of migrants from North Africa, many of whom had lost loved ones on the journey there. In a memorial, a mass grave, a mass he gave, Francis condemned what he called a culture of comfort, which makes us think only of ourselves, makes us insensitive to the cries of other people.
On his visit to Washington in 2015, after traveling to the White House in that small Fiat instead of by motorcade, he continued to champion the cause of migrants and the need to welcome the outsider.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
POPE FRANCIS: As the son of an immigrant family. I'm happy to be a guest in this country, which was largely built by such families.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: It would be a cause he would champion the rest of his life, along with the environment. Greater inclusion of women in the church, though not in the priesthood, and acceptance of the gay and lesbian community, as well.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
POPE FRANCIS: (through translator) If a person is gay and accepts the Lord and has goodwill, who am I to judge them?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Such views put him at odds at times with conservative Catholics in the United States and elsewhere, as did his advocacy for migrants with some global political leaders, including President Trump, who said late today that he will be attending the funeral.
And though he could not conduct the traditional Good Friday Way of the Cross Ceremonies this year at Rome's Coliseum, the meditations he wrote for the occasion spoke loudly. Quoting now a passage, he said, "Today's builders of Babel tell us that there is no room for losers, and that those who fall along the way are losers. Theirs is the construction site of hell."
[20:05:08]
Late today, Cardinal Kevin Farrell, the American acting head of the Vatican, placed a seal on the door of the Pope's simple residence, officially marking the end of Francis's papacy. At about the same time, the Vatican the American acting head of the Vatican, placed a seal on the door of the Pope's simple residence, officially marking the end of Francis's papacy.
At about the same time, the Vatican released his last wishes on his burial, which reads the tomb must be in the earth, simple, without particular decoration, and with the only inscription "Franciscus."
Tomorrow, at St. George's here, there will be a mass in the late Pope's honor.
In a prayer posted today, the Archbishop John Wilson writes: "Like the Lord, when the poor cried, Pope Francis heard them. But as the Lord Jesus taught us, it is not enough just to hear those cries, we must commit ourselves to responding to them, too."
That is exactly what Pope Francis did, and it is why he meant so much to so many.
There's a lot to get to in this hour. In a moment, the impact in his native Argentina, I'll be joined by a friend of the pontiff's as well. But first, more on how this all unfolded in Vatican City. CNN's Clarissa Ward has that.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CLARISSA WARD, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice over): The bells tolled at St. Peters in tribute to a Pope who reshaped the Catholic church.
Pope Francis died from stroke and heart failure on Monday morning, the Vatican said. And as news broke of his passing, mourners poured into St. Peter's Square, united in their grief.
EVA BONNANO, VISITING FROM PHILADELPHIA: It's just very sad day. Its honestly -- I think impressive that he made it to Easter. I think that's almost like a miracle for Italy.
JOHANN XAVIER, VISITING FROM AUSTRALIA: Pretty much devastated, all of us. Its, yes, really bad. It's really sad.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's a moment of a bit of sadness and at the same time, thankfulness and celebration of life.
WARD (voice over): Outside the Pope's residence at Casa Santa Marta, prayers and shock.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I mean, yesterday we saw him in the square in St. Peter's Square, and we knew he was sick, but nobody expected that he was going to die the day after.
WARD (voice over): Pope Francis had cut back on his duties this month, after five weeks in the hospital this year, when he battled life threatening double pneumonia.
J.D. VANCE (R), VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: I pray for you every day. God bless you.
WARD (voice over): But on Sunday he'd been hard at work meeting U.S. Vice President J.D. Vance before appearing on the balcony of St. Peter's, sick, frail but determined to give his traditional Easter blessing.
(POPE FRANCIS Speaking in foreign language.)
WARD (voice over): A move delighting the crowd gathered outside.
More so, his ride through the Square in his Popemobile for the first time since leaving the hospital a month ago, stopping to bless the young, sick and vulnerable.
On Monday, though, the jubilation of the Catholic faithful turned into a global grief. Tributes praising his warmth, humility and moral leadership in a troubled world.
During his whole pontificate, President Macron said he was by the side of the most vulnerable, the most fragile. In the Pope's final weeks, he visited prisoners in a jail in Rome and renewed calls in his final address for an end to the wars in Gaza, Ukraine And Sudan.
ANTONIO GUTERRES, UNITED NATIONS SECRETARY-GENERAL: He urged the world to invest in what he referred to as the weapons of peace, to help the most vulnerable, to fight hunger, to advance development.
WARD (voice over): Rosary prayers were said at the Vatican Monday night in honor of an extraordinary life that touched rich and poor across the world.
(END VIDEOTAPE) COOPER: And Clarissa Ward joins me now from Rome.
Clarissa, what have you been hearing from people throughout the day today there?
WARD: Well, Anderson, it's interesting because even though the Pope was very sick for quite some time, there really has been just this element of shock. People saying that they understood that he was ill, but that he had been carrying out his duties, perhaps in a diminished capacity, but nonetheless maintaining a busy schedule.
And so, to see him on that balcony just behind me yesterday and then wake up to the news the day after Easter that he had died at 7:35 A.M. this morning, I think caused a lot of people to feel shock and also, of course, to feel profound grief, profound loss. I spoke to one woman from Argentina who said, listen, obviously, as an Argentinian, we feel deeply connected to Pope Francis, and this is a desperately sad occasion.
But more than that, as a young woman who no longer felt close to the church, who no longer felt that the language of the church really applied to me or was relevant to my life, I'm so grateful to Pope Francis for trying to open up this space, open up the Catholic church, make it a more warmer, a more welcoming space focused less on the divisive issues such as abortion, homosexuality, divorce, and instead focus on building this common humanity, based on caring for the poor, the marginalized, the migrants, those suffering in war, and that really just struck me and stayed with me -- Anderson.
[20:10:27]
COOPER: Yes, Clarissa, thanks very much. We'll see you throughout this week.
Joining me now is CNN's David Culver, who is in the late Pope's home country of Argentina. David, how are people there mourning the Pope's passing?
DAVID CULVER, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hey there, Anderson, it's interesting hearing you and Clarissa talking there, because she said that despite people knowing that he was sick and given his age, that this really wasn't all that unexpected, even the Pope talked about it and I spent nine plus hours on a flight by myself, rereading his biography and I think its read now in his death with a bit more urgency, and even as a love letter of sorts, if you really think about those words. But she says that people are still processing it, and that's what we found here.
I mean, mass has ended for the day, and there have been masses at all hours throughout the day here in Buenos Aires. This is obviously the Cathedral, a place that was very near and dear to Pope Francis when he was Cardinal Jorge Bergoglio. He was here from '98 until 2013. And it's interesting, even reading a bit more about the day that he was elected Pope.
I mean, he only had two cassocks with him when he was in Rome. He thought he was going to come back here. He had a return ticket booked to come back to Buenos Aires. One thing that people point out is he never got to come back home. He never came back to Argentina. And yet this is a place that he says, yes, my roots are Italian, but I'm Argentinian and I'm Latin American and that was crucial for him.
And you can see here people have obviously made this a memorial of sorts. And they have put something that was also near and dear to him. San Lorenzo, the soccer team that he, while he didn't watch T.V., would have a Swiss guardsman put the scores and keep him up to date on how they were doing. They will put the notes on his desk.
I'm going to walk around here. You'll get a sense of the press locally that are here, and we'll go through here. There's a bit more of the crowd. I want to show you, Anderson, this. This is something that we just saw coming together, and you'll see this kind of popping up.
There's these little memorials that have come to life throughout the day here. And this one, I think really is quite stunning. And you can take it in this gentleman here saying that he saw the news and he felt the need to just come out and sketch what his heart was feeling -- Anderson.
COOPER: David Culver, thanks very much from Argentina.
With me now, a friend of Pope Francis's, a philanthropist, investment banker, John Studzinski.
John, thank you so much for being with us. I appreciate it. I'm sorry, it's under these circumstances. You knew him personally. You spent a lot of time with him over the years. What was he like?
JOHN STUDZINSKI, FRIEND OF POPE FRANCIS: He starts every conversation the same way he started the conversation with when he first became Pope, which is he starts off saying, John, you must pray for me --
COOPER: Every time you would see him.
STUDZINSKI: -- quickly, but I also quickly got to know there's a sort of an Old Testament side, a very formidable, stern side, which we see in his early career. And then there's also a very New Testament side, which is very rigorously --
COOPER: I like it that you put it in Biblical terms like this.
STUDZINSKI: Well, there is an Old Testament side, and there's a New Testament side very much mimicking the face of Christ, the life of Christ, the empathy, the sympathy, the humanity of Christ.
COOPER: The moral force that he has, the caring for the poor, the caring for those who are the least cared for by many societies around the world. Where did that come from in him? Was that always there?
STUDZINSKI: We can we can start with the Jesuit. The Jesuits, as you know, are -- take the view that Ignatius of Loyola, you transform society by focusing on the poor, the poorest of the poor, the marginalized, educating them, training them, taking the scriptures, teaching them to fish, giving them the dignity of work.
You also have to remember he's the first Pope from Latin America. His background, his history, everything that he saw and everything he represents has seen a wide range of economic conditions. So, he's been very mindful of that.
COOPER: You talked -- we were talking before we went on air about his sense of humor. That was something you would see in private meetings with him.
STUDZINSKI: No, he loved to play tricks.
COOPER: Play tricks?
STUDZINSKI: Well, in small groups of people, he would sometimes pretend to be very serious and then all of a sudden say something outrageously silly.
[20:15:10]
He particularly used humor when he met heads of state. I found when he was going to meet the head of state, he was always ambivalent about that side of his job, because he felt his real job was to be out preaching, saying mass. But also he was very focused on building bridges among faiths.
COOPER: Was that part of the reason, sort of the pomp and pageantry -- Was that frustrating for him? Because it seemed like he tried to reduce that as much as possible. He drove around with the Fiat. He didn't live in some of the places others had lived.
STUDZINSKI: No, that was genuine. That was genuine. He had nothing -- he had no interest in that at all and I think part of the deal was that he was going to always have a very simple life that focused, really -- and when you looked at his daily calendar, he did his day job in the Vatican. He spent his -- part of his afternoon he went to St. Mary Major and prayed himself in his own chapel there. That's a place where he's going to be buried.
And then he quietly went back to the guesthouse, Santa Marta. And on some evenings he'd eat on his own and on other evenings, if he was in the mood, he joined a table of guests and sit and eat with them.
It's a very lonely thing being a Pope. There's very few people you can be close to.
COOPER: That must be incredibly hard. I mean, it must be incredibly difficult in that sense -- the weight of that.
STUDZINSKI: There's the weight of it, he's got an extraordinary number of talent, people around him to rely on and to a certain extent, he accelerated the talent or a number of people, and at the same time, he's restructured the good portion of the Vatican and I'm sure we'll hear a lot about that over the next several months as part of his legacy. COOPER: Do you think he waited for Easter? Do you think he waited for the day after Easter? I mean, do you think he was -- I mean, obviously he had been very, very sick when he was in the hospital.
STUDZINSKI: Easter is the most important day. The resurrection of the Lord is the most important day in the Catholic Church in the Christian faith. And I think he felt as the servant, as Jesus' representative, as the chair of St. Peter. It was his job to be present, and particularly for the Easter vigil, which is the most important service in the Catholic calendar.
The night before Easter, with the entire faith is recited where you recite your baptismal vows. You have the consecration, you have the entire Old Testament, New Testament. It's a very, very powerful ceremony. And he was present there in St. Peter's. And then, of course, he was present, I think, much to the frustration of some of his minders on Sunday in St. Peter's Square.
COOPER: As a believer and as somebody who knew him and also has done a remarkable philanthropy throughout your life, are you sad on this day?
STUDZINSKI: I'm sad for the world. Creating this enormous void of moral leadership. He is one of the great moral leaders of our time, and there's no one who's going to be able to fill that void in the present.
I'm happy for him because he gets to go home. He gets to go home to the Lord. And I think as someone who's very devout, where faith is your anchor, it's wonderful to see him. He's now -- his journey is probably complete. And again, to die the day after Easter, to die the day after the Resurrection of the Lord, that's probably the most -- a number of cardinals have said around the world today. You couldn't pick a more apt day to go to the Lord.
COOPER: Yes, and he's home. John, thank you so much. It's really a pleasure.
STUDZINSKI: Thank you for inviting me.
COOPER: Thank you for being here on this day.
Coming up next, a closer look at Pope Francis, his life, his longtime advocacy for immigrants, as well as his own immigrant experience in Argentina.
And later, all we're learning about the funeral and the Conclave for choosing the next Pope as well.
There's a lot more ahead. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:23:29]
COOPER: Pope Francis in 2016, washing the feet of migrants a Holy Thursday ritual first practiced by Christ with his disciples after the Last Supper. A sign, then and now of humility toward the least among us.
And as we mentioned at the top of the broadcast, Francis set the tone from the outset of his papacy with a visit to the island of Lampedusa, with more on that and his wider advocacy for migrants. Here's Randi Kaye.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Pope Francis' 2013 trip to this tiny island set the tone for his papacy, making clear migrants and the poor would be a priority for him.
Lampedusa, Italy, located off the coast of Sicily and just about 70 miles from Tunisia, is considered a port of entry to Europe for African migrants fleeing poverty and violence.
During the Pope's mass, he condemned what he called the global indifference to their plight and prayed for the refugees and migrants lost at sea.
(POPE FRANCIS speaking in foreign language.)
KAYE (voice over): Pope Francis called to reawaken our consciences to counter the indifference shown to migrants. "We have lost a sense of brotherly responsibility," he said. The empathy toward other migrants carried through his papacy.
In 2016, during a visit to Lesbos, Greece, Pope Francis not only told refugees they were not alone, he brought 12 of them back home with him to Rome. The Pope's own ancestors emigrated to Argentina from Italy.
[20:25:02]
POPE FRANCIS: As the son of an immigrant family, I'm happy to be a guest in this country, which was largely built by such families.
KAYE (voice over): Given his sympathetic stance on immigration, the pontiff found himself at odds with Donald Trump.
In 2016, when then candidate Trump vowed to build a wall along the Southern U.S. Border to keep migrants out. Pope Francis argued Trump could not claim to be a Christian based on his anti-immigrant stance.
POPE FRANCIS (through translator): A person who thinks about building walls wherever they may be and not building bridges is not Christian. This is not in the Gospel.
KAYE (voice over): In 2017, during his first term, President Trump met with Pope Francis at the Vatican. Despite their differences on immigration, Trump appeared star struck.
DONALD TRUMP (R) PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: He is something. He is really great. We had a fantastic meeting and we had a fantastic tour. It was really beautiful.
KAYE (voice over): The following year, Pope Francis continued his call to action on behalf of migrants.
POPE FRANCIS (through translator): Do not extinguish the hope in their hearts.
KAYE (voice over): Just before President Trump began his second term, Pope Francis described Trump's planned mass deportations as a disgrace.
THOMAS HOMAN, U.S. BORDER CZAR: He wants to attack us from securing our border? He's got a wall around the Vatican, does he not? So, he's got a wall around to protect his people and himself, but we can't have a wall around the United States.
KAYE (voice over): The pontiff's friction with the Trump administration was hardly evident during Vice President J.D. Vance's meeting with the Pope on Easter. That was just hours before he died, and migrants around the globe lost their greatest crusader.
Randi Kaye, CNN.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: We want to get some more perspective on Pope Francis's legacy now from Colm Flynn, Vatican correspondent for EWTN News; Joe Donnelly, former ambassador to the Vatican during the Biden administration, who's also the former Democratic Senator from Indiana. And also Father Patrick Mary Briscoe, editor of "Our Sunday Visitor," a national Catholic newspaper.
Father Briscoe, I've heard you describe this Pope as the Pope of mercy. Can you can you talk about that? In what way?
FATHER PATRICK MARY BRISCOE, EDITOR "OUR SUNDAY VISITOR": Absolutely, Anderson, thank you for letting us start with this point. I was ordained a priest in 2016, and that year, Pope Francis called for the extraordinary Jubilee Year of Mercy, and it was a singular year in which the Pope was calling for people to return, to repent of their sins, to embrace the Gospel in dramatic and new and exciting ways.
It was really, I think, part of the singular way that Pope Francis reached out, encouraging people to give faith a second look, to consider what's important about being Catholic for those who are Catholic and for everyone who would have an interest in contributing to the building up of goodwill, to contributing to the common cause of humanity, to attract their attention and unite them in this single purpose.
So for me, when I think, what is Pope Francis? What is his legacy? I look to that year, to the Jubilee Year of Mercy. It left a big mark on my priesthood and certainly shaped the way I understood Pope Francis' call.
COOPER: Ambassador Donnelly, you served as ambassador to the Vatican until last year. Obviously, you met with the Pope a number of times. Can you just talk about what his impact on the Vatican itself, what those years have been like for him from your vantage point? JOE DONNELLY, FORMER AMBASSADOR TO THE HOLY SEE: Sure, it was like a turnaround at the Vatican, where there was a focus before him on rules and structures and, in effect, toeing the line. And when Francis came in, what happened is instead of focusing on the rules, he focused on the flock, on the poor, on those poverty stricken, on people in need.
And so, there was a wholesale change in how the Vatican was operated in that way, and that is something that with our embassy from the United States, we were all in to try to help those who were the least among us, trying to help with the situation in Ukraine and the situation in Gaza. We worked nonstop together on those issues, and the Vatican was a terrific partner.
COOPER: Colm, I mean, you've covered this Pope for quite a while now. Talk a little bit about your memories of him. What stood out to you over the years?
COLM FLYNN, VATICAN CORRESPONDENT, EWTN NEWS: You know what? I was lucky enough, Anderson, to travel with the Pope on some of his papal journeys right across the world. The first I went with him was to Iraq in 2021. And actually, the photograph you're seeing on the screen now, that was my wife and I meeting Pope Francis, Anderson, just two days before he was hospitalized and that was his last public meeting, his Wednesday general audience.
And because we had just been married and we both were covering the Vatican for various networks, we were able to go up to the very front and have a short moment with the Holy Father. Now, you could even tell then, Anderson, that he was out of breath. He was struggling to speak for prolonged periods, but he was still working right up until the day he was hospitalized.
So, I think what I'll remember about Pope Francis is his dedication to work. Even when he was in the Gemelli Hospital, the doctor said that he was an impatient patient.
And I remember those beautiful moments of humanity where you could really see his ethos in action. You know, he picked the name Francis after St. Francis of Assisi, someone who had a love for the environment, for the poor and for those on the margins.
[20:30:36]
And when you looked at Pope Francis going to places like last year, even Papua New Guinea or East Timor, going to places like South Sudan and Mongolia --
COOPER: Yes.
FLYNN: -- places that had often very little Catholics, maybe even no Catholics at all. But if Pope Francis saw suffering and he saw pain, he wanted to be there with the people.
COOPER: Well, Father Briscoe, that was actually my question to you, which I always found so interesting. So many of the places that Francis visited, to Colm's point, were not places Pope would normally go, you know, South Sudan, Papua New Guinea. Why do you think that was so important to him?
BRISCOE: I think, Anderson, that it was so important because Pope Francis wanted to show that everyone can participate in this mercy, that everyone can touch it, and that everyone can be changed by it.
I think in a world where so many people are indifferent or where people are just consumed by their materialism, Pope Francis wanted to wake us up from that, to call us out of that, to look for higher things and to believe that things could be better, that we can build a better world.
I really think he was calling us to that and encouraging us to look towards it, to look to something greater, to seek what is good.
COOPER: Ambassador Donnelly, President Biden was only the second Catholic U.S. President, the first obviously being John F. Kennedy. What do you think Pope Francis symbolized for many American Catholics?
DONNELLY: Well, first, Pope Francis and President Biden had an extraordinarily good relationship. I was with them at the G7, and the depth of the friendship was really clear. And what Pope Francis has symbolized to American Catholics is the love of Christ, the love of Jesus, that we're all sinners, we all do the very best we can.
And his comments about, hey, the church is a field hospital for the sick, not a prize for the perfect. And so, I think American Catholics love that whole attitude of, look, we're all trying to do our best, and Pope Francis embraces that.
COOPER: Joe Donnelly, Ambassador Donnelly, thank you. Colm Flynn, and Fr. Patrick Mary Briscoe, thank you as well. I hope to speak to you all in the days ahead.
Next, details on the funeral, distinctly different and humble burial of -- papal conclave. All of that ahead.
And later, the questions also about Pete Hegseth's future as Defense Secretary after revelations he included his wife, brother, and personal lawyer on a second Signal Chat about war plans for Yemen. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:37:05]
COOPER: We've seen examples tonight and throughout the last 12 years of how Pope Francis often used his public appearances to shine a light on those who normally reside in the shadows. They're forgotten.
Well, here's another one. From 2013, the pontiff embracing a man covered in growths and sores. This image went viral around the world. His name is Vinicio Riva, a genetic disease caused his disfigurement.
And Riva told CNN that he used to get stares of shock and fear at his appearance. But the pope's lack of hesitation initially confused him, saying "He didn't have any fear of my illness. He embraced me without speaking. I quivered", he said. "I felt a great warmth."
Now, details on how the Pope's passing triggers centuries-old rituals and traditions with what comes next. Here's CNN's Nic Robertson.
(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR (voice-over): As he lived, so Pope Francis wants to be remembered in death with a relatively modest funeral. The pontiff paid his burial site two years ago, once a simple earthen grave.
POPE FRANCIS, HEAD OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH AND SOVEREIGN OF THE VATICAN CITY STATE (through translation): The place is already prepared. I want to be buried in Santa Maria Maggiore.
ROBERTSON (voice-over): More than 1,500 years old, the papal basilica Santa Maria Maggiore, sometimes known as Our Lady of the Snows, is a humbler pick than the traditional resting place of many popes, the gilded St. Peter's Basilica.
Basilica Santa Maria Maggiore was big in Pope Francis' life. Before and after every overseas trip, he'd visit the Salus Populi Romani, a much-venerated image of the Blessed Virgin Mary. The Vatican has just five to seven days to make the preparations before Francis' funeral must take place.
And despite Francis' wish for a modest send-off, it is his humble characteristic that may make organizing his funeral even more challenging. His humility made him hugely popular. His death may draw many to the Vatican.
Over the coming four days, the pontiff is expected to first lay in rest in the Sistine Chapel, then the Clementine Chapel for private visitations, before laying in state inside St. Peter's Basilica, where the public will be able to come pay their respects.
The last Pope's funeral, Benedict XVI two years ago, drew close to 200,000 mourners, was elaborate. But as he died almost a decade after he abdicated, comparisons are hard to make. The last pope to die in office was Pope John Paul II in 2005. He had a very elaborate funeral.
So many world leaders wanted to come, nations were limited to five places each. Italy and its native Poland granted rare exceptions.
[20:40:05]
An estimated 300,000 people attended in St. Peter's. Following France's funeral, there will be nine days of prayer and service, known as the novemdiales.
After that, 15 to 20 days from now, the process of picking a new pope begins, known as the Conclave of Cardinals. 120 of the church's 252 cardinals convenes in private. They remain isolated until France's successor is agreed.
It may take almost two weeks. White smoke will signal success. A new pope is announced.
(END VIDEO TAPE)
COOPER: And Nic Robertson joins me now. Hard to know, obviously, what comes next, although this Pope did choose so many of the cardinals who will be making the decision.
ROBERTSON (on-camera): And he chose them as people who weren't sort of pushing themselves forward. He seems to have chosen the more humble and sort of more akin to himself. So one would expect, therefore, that when the cardinals come together, they might look in favor of another person with us, as John Soroski (ph) was saying that just before with a sort of moral leadership and that sense of reforming.
But there are -- we should not forget, still a lot of conservatives around in the church --
COOPER: Yes.
ROBERTSON (on-camera): -- that you think here in the U.K. of the ordinarian. They were Anglicans. They came into the Catholic Church in large groups, in congregations with their priests, and they came because they wanted the more conservative values that the Catholic Church had at the time under Benedict XVI.
Among them, I know there are some who would look for a more Benedict or John Paul II type figure than a Francis figure. But I think this will become the dominant question, obviously, as we move through the funeral, as we go through the nine days of prayer.
COOPER: Yes.
ROBERTSON (on-camera): As we get into the conclave.
COOPER: Yes.
ROBERTSON (on-camera): Does has essentially Pope Francis stacked the cardinals in such a way that they will reproduce another like him.
COOPER: Yes. Nic Robertson, thanks very much. I appreciate it.
The emptiness in Vatican City, certainly explained by the lateness of the hour right now, but it's a reminder as well of another time when it should have been filled with people, but wasn't. We're talking about during the early days of COVID back in March of 2020, with cities including Rome under lockdown, when people were huddled at home and in fear, afraid of even one another and the unknown. Pope Francis spoke, and he filled that dark void.
I want to take a couple of minutes just to read you some of what he said as a reminder of what it was like then and also of what it is like now for many people. This is some of what Francis said.
"The storm exposes our vulnerability and uncovers those false and superfluous certainties around which we have constructed our daily schedules, our projects, our habits and priorities. It shows us how we have allowed to become dull and feeble the very things that nourish, sustain and strengthen our lives and our communities."
He said, "The tempest lays bare all our prepackaged ideas and forgetfulness of what nourishes our people's souls. All those attempts that anesthetize us and with ways of thinking and acting that supposedly save us, but instead prove incapable of doing that, putting incapable of putting us in touch with our roots and keeping alive the memory of those who have gone before us. We deprive ourselves of the antibodies we need to confront adversity".
"In this storm", the Pope said, "the facade of those stereotypes with which we camouflage our egos, always worrying about our image has fallen away, uncovering once more that blessed common belonging of which we cannot be deprived. Our belonging as brothers and sisters".
"We have gone ahead", he said, "at breakneck speed, feeling powerful and able to do anything. Greedy for profit, we let ourselves get caught up in things and lured away by haste. We did not stop at your reproach to us. We were not shaken awake by wars or injustice across the world, nor did we listen to the cry of the poor or of our ailing planet.
We carried on regardless, thinking we would stay healthy in a world that was sick. Now that we are in a stormy sea, we implore you, wake up, Lord. You are calling on us to seize this time of trials, a time of choosing.
It is not the time of your judgment, but of our judgment. A time to choose what matters and what passes away. A time to separate what is necessary from what is not. It is a time to get our lives back on track with regard to you, Lord, and to others."
"We can look to so many exemplary companions for the journey", the Pope went on to say, "who, even though fearful, have reacted by giving their lives. This is the force of the spirit poured out in fashion and courageous and generous self-denial.
[20:45:08]
It is the life in the spirit that can redeem, value, and demonstrate how our lives are woven together and sustained by ordinary people, often forgotten people who do not appear in newspaper and magazine headlines nor on the grand catwalks of the latest show, but who, without any doubt, are in these very days writing the decisive events of our time.
Doctors, nurses, supermarket employees, cleaners, caregivers, providers of transport, law and order forces, volunteers, priests, religious men and women, and so very many others who have understood that no one, no one reaches salvation by themselves.
In the face of so much suffering, where the authentic development of our peoples is assessed, we experience the priestly prayer of Jesus, that they may all be one. How many people every day are exercising patience and offering hope, taking care to sow not panic, but a shared responsibility? How many fathers, mothers, grandparents, and teachers are showing our children in small, everyday gestures how to face up to and navigate a crisis by adjusting their routines, lifting their gaze, and fostering prayer? How many are praying, offering, and interceding for the good of all? Prayer and quiet service, these are our victorious weapons."
Those were the words of Pope Francis then.
Next, more news, including the fallout and denials after Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth shared details and military plans in a second Signal chat. More on that ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:50:20]
COOPER: New and potentially damaging fallout for Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth tonight, as sources tell CNN that he revealed sensitive military information about attacks on the Houthis in Yemen on yet another Signal chat with members of his family, his wife, and attorneys.
We're going to have more on that. This is a second Signal, not the first one that was reported earlier. The Defense Secretary was quick to disparage the story today at the White House Easter Egg Roll.
(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)
PETE HEGSETH, DEFENSE SECRETARY: This is what the media does. They take anonymous sources from disgruntled former employees, and then they try to slash and burn people and ruin their reputations. Not going to work with me.
(END VIDEOCLIP)
COOPER: Well, for his part, President Trump echoed his Defense Secretary and blamed the media.
Joining me now, Democratic Congressman Adam Smith of Washington, who is the ranking member on the House Armed Services Committee. Congressman, what is your reaction to this reporting now by the existence of the second Signal chat?
REP. ADAM SMITH (D-WA): Well, this is why they should have come clean on the first one and had an honest conversation about their operational security methods and procedures, admitted that they were flawed.
I mean, we all saw the, you know, the documented evidence of the conversation they had prior to a strike shared with a reporter, but also shared on an unsecured application. And they basically said nothing to see here, no problem. And that's what happens if you don't fix the problem.
So we still need oversight. We need to find out what are their operational security rules to make sure that sensitive information is protected. This kind of thing does happen. It's happened on the House Armed Services Committee where information has gotten out, and we've had to remind members about the procedures.
Here, the Department of Defense thinks they're completely unaccountable, which, of course, is a theme throughout the Trump administration. They do whatever they want with no accountability. This places our national security and our troops at risk. They owe us an explanation and they owe us the procedures being fixed.
COOPER: Do you think there's any chance the Secretary will lose his job over this? I mean, obviously, this is not a normal process these days.
SMITH: He should, but it seems unlikely. I mean, look, this is a theme throughout the Trump administration in numerous agencies. His point here is that he's in charge and there are no rules other than what he decides. So, no, I don't see him holding Secretary Hegseth accountable.
But again, even if he's not going to fire him, the least they could do is say, look, this is not an acceptable procedure. It places missions at risk. It places troops at risk. Let's have a discussion. Let's fix it.
Let's be transparent about it. And that's what we're going to press for. And actually, the Armed Services Committee, we have a hearing next week. We have a resolution of inquiry asking the Department of Defense to do precisely that.
I suspect the majority will quash this, but we're going to have a public debate asking for these explanations and asking for the security to be enhanced so that we can protect our national security.
COOPER: As you know, three top Pentagon officials were put on leave in just the past week. A former Pentagon spokesperson who resigned last week said in this op-ed for Politico that the Pentagon is in a total chaos. And they said, quote, "The building is in disarray under Hegseth's leadership". Between the Signal controversy, all of that, I mean, have you ever seen a time like this?
SMITH: Absolutely not. And keep in mind, they've also fired several top generals, including the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, C.Q. Brown, an incredibly qualified general. So they had no chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff for several months.
They have finally confirmed the replacement, who seems like a decent person, but he's a three-star general without the experience in this area. And then the main thing that the Pentagon is doing is executing some sort of Maoist Cultural Revolution to go through and purge books and words from all manner of places, from the service academies, from libraries in the Air Force, in the Army, you know --
COOPER: Yes.
SMITH: -- purging the words gay and all of that. What's that got to do with national security? So, yes, the Pentagon is in chaos, and I've never seen it like this before.
COOPER: Yes. Congressman Adam Smith, I appreciate your time tonight. Thank you.
Coming up next, more on Pope Francis, his words of comfort for a boy after the death of his father.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:58:39]
COOPER: In April of 2018, the Pope took a question from a young boy named Emanuele in Rome. His father had died, and the boy worried that his father might not be in heaven because he was not a believer. Here's what happened.
(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)
COOPER (voice-over): When Emanuele stood before the Pope, he was unable to speak.
EMANUELE (through translation): I can't do it.
COOPER (voice-over): I can't do it, he said, crying. I can't do it.
A priest tried to console and encourage Emanuele, but the boy couldn't find the words to ask his question. Pope Francis invited him to come and whisper it in his ear.
"Come, come to me, Emanuele," he said. The boy was brought to the Pope, who did what any father would. For nearly a minute, he hugged Emanuele and consoled him, quieting his tears.
The boy whispered his question, and Francis answered. When Emanuele l returned to his seat, the Pope said, "If only we could cry like Emanuele. When we have pain in our heart, he cries for his father".
With the boy's permission, he then explained what Emanuele had asked him.
POPE FRANCIS (through translation): Emanuele asked, "A little while ago my father passed away. He was a nonbeliever, but he had all four of his children baptized. He was a good man. Is dad in heaven?"
His father wasn't a believer but he had his children baptized. He had a good heart. Does God abandon his children?
CROWD: No.
POPE FRANCIS: Does God abandon his children when they are good?
CROWD: No.
POPE FRANCIS: There, Emanuele, that is the answer.
(END VIDEOCLIP) COOPER: And his final message for Emanuele was, talk to your dad, pray to your dad.
That's it for us. We'll be in Rome tomorrow. The news continues. The Source with Kaitlan Collins starts now.
