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Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees

Pope Francis' Funeral Set For Saturday In St. Peter's Square; Pope Francis Remembered In His Home Country Of Argentina; Pope Francis Appointed 80 Percent Of Cardinals Who Will Choose His Successor; How The Pope's Reforms Transformed The Catholic Church; Survivors Network Of Those Abused By Priest Calls For The Next Pope To Enact A Zero Tolerance Law For Abuse. Aired 8-9p ET

Aired April 22, 2025 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

HARRY ENTEN, CNN CHIEF DATA ANALYST: These are not the countries you generally want to follow. So, when Trump says that he wouldn't exactly be joining a very good company, we'll put it mildly.

ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: Very good company, right and Nazi -- Germany was looking into it, right, they would if you had this many kids, you got a bronze and a gold --

ENTEN: -- silver or gold, yes. No bueno.

BURNETT: All right, thank you very much, Harry --

ENTEN: Thank you.

BURNETT: -- and thank so much to all of you. "AC360" starts now.

[20:00:32]

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: Good evening from Rome, if you are wondering what may have been in the mind or heart of Pope Francis as he faced the final moments of his life, today, we got a glimpse at one possibility.

Words the Pope wrote a few months ago, revealed today for the first time in the preface of a book set to come out later this week. Pope Francis wrote death is not the end of everything, but the beginning of something, "A new beginning," he called it, "because we will experience something that we have never fully experienced: eternity."

Imagine to be able to face the end of one's life with that conviction. Not a hope, not a hunch, the belief that death is not the end of everything, but the beginning of something. Pope Francis has started on his new beginning, and in just a few hours, at 9:00 A.M. local time, 3:00 A.M. Eastern Standard Time in the U.S., his body in a casket will be taken from the chapel of Casa Santa Marta, the simple residence where Francis lived during his entire papacy, to St. Peter's Basilica.

The procession will cross two piazzas and then enter St. Peter's Square through what's known as the Arch of the Bells. At the Basilica, Cardinal Kevin Farrell, the American who is now running the day to day operations, the Vatican as its Camerlengo or Chamberlain, will preside over the Liturgy of the Word, a central part of the Catholic mass.

After that, lying in state will begin for three days. When I was here in 2005 for the passing of Pope John Paul II, some 300,000 people came. Far fewer for Benedict, who had already stepped down as Pope years before he died.

It's hard to imagine there won't be many, many tens of thousands this time. Just two days ago, St. Peter's Square was filled with as many as 50,000 people who had come to hear this Pope's final Easter message. He surprised the crowd with a ride in his Popemobile through the square afterwards. And afterwards, the Vatican state media reported today that he thanked his longtime personal nurse for helping him through it. "Thank you for helping me return to the square," he said.

Some hours later, at 5:30 yesterday morning, according to the Vatican, the Pope from his deathbed made a farewell gesture to that nurse who had stood by his side for so many years and then fell into a coma.

In a moment, what we are learning about the details of the funeral itself that will take place on Saturday, the upcoming Conclave, and some of the possible choices for this popes successor. We'll also hear from people who knew the Pope. Before we do, however, I just want you to hear some of what he himself said over the years about the things that matter deeply to him.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

POPE FRANCIS, HEAD OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH (through translator): In the face of unjust and painful situations, faith brings us the light that scatters the darkness. Charity is born of the call of a God who continues to knock on our door, the door of all people, to invite us to love, to compassion, to service of one another.

Science and technology place in our hands a power previously unheard of. It is our duty, duty towards the entirety of humanity and particularly towards the poorest and future generations. To use this ability for the common good.

At a university meeting where it was discussed what world we want to leave our children, one said, well, are you sure that children will exist? We are on the brink.

We know that Jesus wanted to show solidarity with every person. He wanted everyone to experience his companionship, his help, and his love.

A person who thinks about building walls wherever they may be, and not building bridges is not Christian.

The Son of God came into this world as a homeless person.

The Lord lift up his countenance upon you and give you peace. And please don't forget to pray for me.

(END VIDEO CLIP) COOPER: Well, again, the funeral is Saturday morning, 10:00 A.M. Here in Rome, in Vatican City, which is 4:00 A.M. Eastern time in the United States. More on that now from CNN's Christopher Lamb.

[20:05:07]

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CHRISTOPHER LAMB, CNN VATICAN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): A location steeped in history, the home of the popes. St. Peter's Square, soon to be the setting of Pope Francis' funeral mass, set to host thousands Saturday morning coming to pray and pay their last respects to a hugely popular Pope.

Francis, who won people over with his down to earth style and humility. Before the funeral, the faith will have a chance to say goodbye to the pope as he lies in state in St. Peter's Basilica in a simple coffin and not on crimson cushions.

Francis, insisting his farewell to be fitting for a shepherd and a disciple, and not of a powerful man of this world. Historically, papal funerals have been some of the most watched events in the world. Moving ceremonies attended by heads of state and visiting dignitaries. Leaders from across the world are expected to pay their respects to a moral voice on the world stage, who prioritized peace, the planet and the plight of migrants.

Already confirmed to attend Saturday, French President Emmanuel Macron, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy, the President of France's Native Argentina, Javier Milei, and President Donald Trump. Russian President Vladimir Putin says he won't attend.

St. Peter's Basilica has been the traditional burial place of many popes, but this pontiff has become the first in a century to choose a different resting place. Francis' body will be taken to Rome's Basilica of Santa Maria Maggiore for burial. He talked about that wish in a 2023 interview.

POPE FRANCIS (through translator): The place is already prepared. I want to be buried in Santa Maria Maggiore.

LAMB (voice over): The first pope since the 17th century to be buried at the basilica, a place he regularly visited, particularly before and after foreign trips.

In his will, he made a final request for a tomb which must be in the ground, simple, without particular decoration, and with only the inscription "Franciscus."

Even in death, Francis is a Pope who continues to leave a message to the world and the church he led for more than a decade.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: And CNN Vatican correspondent Christopher Lamb joins me now, along with CNN's chief international correspondent Clarissa Ward and Father Dave Dwyer, host of "The Busted Halo Show" on SiriusXM.

Christopher, I understand just hours ago, you actually were able to visit with Francis to see his body lying in state. Can you talk about that?

LAMB: Yes, well, it was a very emotional moment, actually for me, having covered the Francis Papacy so closely for many years. To see the Pope laid out in this simple casket was, you know, very emotional, actually. And I could see other people who were queuing up to go in there were also feeling that way.

I mean, the Pope has laid out in his robes, but also with the ring that he had when he was in Argentina, and which he continued to have as Pope, a symbol of the connection he had with his roots of Argentina, but also the simplicity that he wanted to emphasize throughout his papacy.

He said he wanted to be remembered in death as a shepherd and a disciple, not a powerful man of the world. And you get that sense when you see him. I felt that very strongly when I was in the chapel.

COOPER: This may be a strange question, was there music playing in the room?

LAMB: No, there was no music.

COOPER: Was there silence?

LAMB: It was silent and there were people in the chapel. This is where he's laid out in Santa Marta, where he used to say mass each day. There were Swiss Guards guarding the coffin and people are coming into the chapel, sitting quietly, praying and then going up to the coffin, paying their last respects and then leaving.

COOPER: And I understand members of the Vatican staff throughout the day have been able to go and spend time.

LAMB: Yes, they've been queuing up all day and even into tonight, Vatican employees, officials and others have been going in there. I imagine there will be big queues to St. Peter's tomorrow, when it will be opened up for people to pay their respects to Francis.

COOPER: Clarissa, what surprised you most about what you've seen today -- what we have learned today?

CLARISSA WARD, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: I think that just the sense of the impact that this Pope has really left, not just on the people of the Catholic church, who still were churchgoers who were very engaged with the faith, but on people broadly across the world of different religions, different backgrounds, different races.

The fact that he had this era of humility, this aura of humility, I should say, and that he worked so hard to kind of focus on rallying people around a shared common humanity, a focus on poverty and the poor, on migrants, that he really embodied, I think what many traditionally think of as being the teachings of Jesus Christ and you see that that simplicity, that humility, that desire to reform, to bring the church and the world back to the core elements of what it truly means to be a human being and to be on this planet together, and particularly when its set backdrop of the world that were living in today. And he was not shy about calling out various different leaders who he did not feel were using their position of privilege and authority to good end.

[20:10:34]

COOPER: Father Dwyer, I'm so fascinated by the Pope's words that that we learned about today in this upcoming book. "Death is not the end of everything, but the beginning of something.

"A new beginning," he called it. "Because we will experience something that we have never fully experienced -- eternity." What do those words mean to you? I've been thinking about them all day since I heard them.

FATHER DAVE DWYER, HOST OF "THE BUSTED HALO SHOW" ON SIRIUSXM: Well, I'm glad you have, because that's certainly his role as a pastor. Many of us who have answered that call is to hopefully implant in the hearts and minds of the faithful what it is that we are striving towards while we are living this life. And that is, I mean, the prayers that we'll hear at Pope Francis' funeral on Saturday, prayers that priests pray all the time when we celebrate funerals of loved ones, of parishioners, is that for those who believe death is not the end.

Life is, as we say in the prayer, life is changed, not ended. And as Pope Francis is pointing out, changed into something that we've never experienced and can only imagine a foretaste of, but will be better than our wildest dreams. He was ready for what we celebrated this weekend, Anderson. This entire week we celebrate the octave of Easter, not just on Easter Sunday, but the resurrection of the Lord writ large across all of our celebrations means that there is eternal life for those who believe.

COOPER: Christopher, how long is it that you have been covering the Vatican?

LAMB: Well, since 2015, day-to-day. So, for a number of years.

COOPER: Is it -- what was he like to cover? I mean, what was seeing him every day, seeing him up close? What was -- what's it been like?

LAMB: Well, he was always a pope who would throw up surprises. I mean, there was never a dull moment. He was always doing different things, shaking things up. He was really a disruptor in the Vatican who, you know, shook up the establishment.

COOPER: Even the funeral ceremony that's going to take place on Saturday. I understand he changed it over the last year or so to try to simplify it, to make it not a funeral of a great personage, but of a of a pastor.

LAMB: That's right and that was, of course, his big reform of the papacy. He was someone who wanted to reform the way that popes ministered. He wanted to be a Pope for the people. He wanted to live in a simple way. Of course, he didn't live in the papal palaces. He lived in the Santa Marta residence, and he drove around in a simple car. He would go and do things like get his glasses changed at the opticians -- normal things.

COOPER: He rolled up in his Fiat?

LAMB: He rolled up and, you know, then suddenly you'd see a kind of team of people around and taking photos. So, it was very much a kind of a normal, a normal Pope. But of course, after he was elected, he went to go and pay his hotel bill. And interestingly, for his burial, he's organized for the cost to be covered. So, he doesn't want there to be a --

COOPER: He's not charging the Vatican for that.

LAMB: Exactly.

COOPER: And Clarissa, today we learned more about the details of that a very simple he wants to be buried in the earth with very few decorations.

WARD: Very simple, very humble. One word on the tomb, "Franciscus" his name in Latin. And one other thing I just wanted to bring up, because I think it is in keeping with what you were talking about. Death is not the end. Is this idea that were learning today from Vatican media, from this report of the nurse who spent well since 2022, I believe was by his side, but particularly in these last five weeks or so, Massimiliano Strappetti, who talked about how essentially Pope Francis seemed to know that the end was coming. He said, I want to have one more surprise for the 50,000 faithful out here and do you think I can manage it?

And then, of course, went down in the Popemobile. Everybody was so surprised, had been told, don't go near people because you're still very fragile -- your immune system -- no, not having it. He stopped. He talked. He blessed. He engaged and then said to Massimiliano Strappetti, you know, thank you so much for that.

And then this final farewell gesture at Monday, it seems, you know, and perhaps were all kind of grasping in a moment like this, but it seemed like there's an aura of finality around that and of knowing that he had done what he wanted to do, and he was ready to go on to the next part of his journey.

COOPER: Yes -- Father Dwyer, I mean, is there -- what do you hope people take away? I mean, one of the things I've been so moved by is it feels like this Pope wanted people to see him all the way through to the end. They wanted to see --

He wanted people to see his frailty. He wasn't afraid to show his body decaying. He wasn't afraid to show his sickness. In fact, he did that for us, in front of us.

[20:15:23] FATHER DWYER: He did and certainly one of his predecessors, Pope John Paul II, also modeled that people have been talking since the last several years of his papacy about how he modeled for us what it means to experience what we call redemptive suffering, meaning that suffering is not only a bad, that because Jesus suffered on the cross and redeemed us, that suffering, even in and of itself, can find redemption.

And Pope Francis really was somebody who, as I've heard over the last several days, some of our listeners saying he walked the talk. Authenticity is so prized in our world these days and Pope Francis was authentic to the end.

COOPER: Yes, Father Dave Dwyer, appreciate you being with us tonight. Christopher Lamb as well, Clarissa Ward.

Now, to Pope Francis' homeland, two of Argentina's CNN's David Culver joins us tonight from the capital of Buenos Aires.

David, what have you been seeing there today?

DAVID CULVER, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: It's been much more of a visible outpouring, Anderson, just in the past 24 hours. And this is the Cathedral here, and I showed you this yesterday, but now you can't even walk on the first step because it's totally caked in wax. In fact, people who are adding more candles have to burn the bottom just so that they stay upright. And then this has been added to just in the past few hours.

If you look up past the flowers that have been put up, there's these messages that people have been leaving as a sign of their love and remembrance for Pope Francis. And you can see some of them up there -- rest in peace, "What's important is to take care of family," and then right there you can see -- "The Pope planted the seed in the people here."

And I want to show you these -- thanks Isabel -- these are some of the newspapers, because the news came after printing yesterday. They now have put the news and made him the cover of some of the national papers here in Argentina. And what's interesting, you heard Christopher Lamb there talking about Pope Francis paying his bill, Anderson, when he was checking out after becoming Pope.

The other thing he did, and he talked about this in his book, is that he called the local newspaper stand just down the street from where we are here from the cathedral. And he said, I don't know if you saw the news, but I need to cancel my subscription.

COOPER: David Culver, thanks very much.

Coming up next, the process of picking the next pope. Are there already some candidates, foremost in the minds of 120 Cardinals, who will vote during the Conclave?

And later, a closer look at the Pope with some of his favorite people, children. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:22:17]

COOPER: Mourners today in Rio de Janeiro at the Cathedral of St. Sebastian. Brazil has more Catholics, 123 million, more than any other country in the world.

Many, no doubt, will be making the journey here. Pope Francis will lie in state starting later this morning at St. Peter's Basilica. The funeral three days later on Saturday, starting at 10:00 A.M., which is 4:00 A.M. Eastern Time in the United States. And of course, CNN will bring that all to you live, as we will also be bringing you the procession today at 3:00 A.M. Eastern Time, live as well. I'll be bringing you that on CNN.

Then, of course, there's the conclave. It must begin within 15 to 20 days of a pope's death or resignation. And how it ends. Whom the cardinals choose is almost always a surprise. CNN's Ben Wedeman, though, has some of the possible candidates. Let's take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN, SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice over): One of the top candidates to succeed Francis is the man who served as his second in command, the current Vatican Secretary of State, Cardinal Pietro Parolin.

From visiting war-torn Ukraine to brokering a deal that saw the Holy See mend ties with China, the 70-year-old Italian is seen as a skilled diplomat and a conciliatory figure who could appeal to both conservatives and progressives. His election, however, could lead to clashes with the Trump administration, as he has rebuked the U.S. President's Gaza plan.

Another top contender is Cardinal Fridolin Ambongo Besungu of the Democratic Republic of Congo, a strong defender of Democracy and human rights. Ambongo has been cardinal since 2019.

FRIDOLIN AMBONGO BESUNGU, CARDINAL, DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC OF CONGO (through translator): I am happy. I am aware of the responsibility this appointment brings.

WEDEMAN (voice over): That responsibility has seen him stand up to warlords and corrupt leaders becoming a respected moral voice. The 65- year-old is also the leader of a massive local church of more than seven million people, and represents the growing church in Africa.

A surprise candidate may be cardinal Robert Prevost from the United States. America's global influence has made electors shy away from choosing a U.S. Pope in the past, but the 69-year-old from Chicago spent many years working in Peru before leading the powerful Vatican office for bishop appointments. And he shouldn't be ruled out.

(CARDINAL ROBERT PREVOST, CHICAGO speaking in foreign language) WEDEMAN (voice over): The top contender, though, may hail from one of the corners of the globe where the church has been growing and few cardinals are as charismatic as Luis Antonio Tagle from the Philippines, often dubbed the Asian Francis.

LUIS ANTONIO TAGLE, PRO-PREFECT OF THE DICASTERY FOR EVANGELIZATION: We believe that Jesus is alive and he was born and he ministered. He died and rose from the dead in Asia.

WEDEMAN (voice over): The 67-year-old led the church's charitable arm as well as the Vatican Department of Evangelization, and he may be well positioned as the church pivots towards parts of the world where it is expanding.

Still, it's impossible to say which, if any, of these candidates will be chosen. If there's anything we can glean from past Conclaves, it's that usually the favorites don't get picked.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

[20:25:50]

COOPER: And Ben Wedeman joins me now along with Colm Flynn, Vatican correspondent with EWTN News. Appreciate both of you being with us. It's so fascinating because this is, I think, the first conclave in which the Pope who has died has selected the majority of, I think, more than two-thirds of the Cardinals who will be actually deciding who the next Pope is.

COLM FLYNN, VATICAN CORRESPONDENT WITH EWTN NEWS: Yes and, you know, when you look at history, Anderson, most of the cardinals that made up the College, they were Italian or they were French or they were European. But now Pope Francis, in an effort to reflect the diversity in the universality of the church, has created Cardinals from places like Haiti, Mongolia, South Sudan.

And what's interesting about that is when it comes time to vote and when they're making their pre-Conclave speeches, the emphasis where they want the church to go in the future, the type of leader they want, they'll be coming from different points of view, different countries, different cultures, different experiences. So this could shape up to be a very interesting.

COOPER: And also Ben, to that point, I think the majority now are from the what's called the global south around the world, as opposed to, as Colm was saying, from European Countries. And a lot of them are kind of unknown in the sort of global public. So trying to predict, I mean, you don't have an easy job trying to kind of come up with possible candidates because it's very difficult to predict what their thoughts are.

WEDEMAN: Yes, it's very difficult. But I think if we look back in recent history, there is a tendency after a very impactful Pope like John Paul II, to choose somebody who's sort of a successor, somebody who's following in the same lines as his predecessor. So, for instance, Benedict XVI was very much thought along the same lines as John Paul II. And given that Francis has certainly been a very impactful Pope, it's likely that whoever it is, regardless, of course, where they come from and all that, it's likely that it will be somebody who does follow the generally broad lines that we've seen Pope Francis follow.

COOPER: The other question is age. I had always thought, oh, well, maybe people will want -- the Cardinals will want a younger pope. But I was also reading some thought that actually, no, they want an older Pope because it allows them the possibility that --

FLYNN: -- if the papacy goes badly, there's let's say --

COOPER: -- there's less years. And also, it leaves them the opportunity to still perhaps become pope one day.

FLYNN: I was just in Buenos Aires a few weeks ago, making a documentary about Pope Francis. And because he was such a disrupter, someone there told me, they said we were saying that Pope Francis was the first Latin American Pope and probably the last Latin American Pope.

But it is going to be fascinating because, like I said, those priorities, when we look at the kind of split in the Catholic church, the ideological split between the more progressive side and then the more traditional, what you might call the conservative side, people always talk about the American conservatives and the church, but I always tell them, you know, this isn't the American Catholic church, nor the Irish Catholic Church. This is the global Catholic Church.

And when you look at that power shift going from the northern to the southern hemisphere, if you look at the top ten list of mass attending countries, practicing Catholics, most of them are in Africa or in Asia.

So, people talk about the future of the church being in those territories. It's the now of the church, and things may be where we put it an emphasis on is not a priority to them. So, the kind of church they would want to see in the future could maybe be going back to something like Pope Benedict XVI's papacy.

COOPER: The question, though, is it did Francis and the people that he selected to become cardinals and they in the 120 Cardinals who are allowed to vote in this, are they ideologically in line with him, or are they more conservative, perhaps more in line with a Benedict or John Paul? Did he kind of stack the deck?

WEDEMAN: Well, certainly. If you, for instance, look at the African Cardinals, socially they're more conservative, certainly more than, than the European ones. And it's the same really applies to Asia.

So even though Pope Francis has brought in so many cardinals from the global south, the global south is not as liberal as Northern Europe, for instance, which is Northern Europe.

[20:30:04]

And certainly, to your point, you know, you go to church in Italy, churches are not full. You go to church in Nigeria, they're crammed.

COOPER: Yes. As we -- as you -- in your report, the Cardinal from DRC Congo, 7 million --

WEDEMAN: Six million. Yes.

COOPER: -- 6 million, extraordinary, extraordinary. Colm (ph), thank you so much. Appreciate it. Ben Wedeman as well.

A lot to get to coming up, Ben, and Colm's points about the Pope's impact, how Pope Francis reformed the papacy, plus the limitations and shortcomings of that reform, and what he himself regarded as one of his most serious mistakes.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: Pope Francis was known for the kindness he showed to everyone around the world, and some of the times we'll remember most are those that he shared with children.

[20:35:02]

Tonight, Randi Kaye has a look back.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Pope Francis welcomed the world with open arms, especially children. When this boy walked on stage during mass, Pope Francis visibly chuckled. And when the boy's mother tried to wrangle her son, the Pope told his audience the boy is mute, but knows how to express himself, then joked, he's Argentinian and unruly, before telling the boy to stay.

The Holy Father welcomed this young girl when she interrupted mass too. Let her stay, God speaks for children, Francis said. Instead of excluding children, Pope Francis embraced them and encouraged them. When this little boy wandered up to the Pope, the Holy Father stood by, allowing the boy to climb into his chair and hug the pontiff's legs, the Pope tenderly patting the child on the head. As the boy examined the Pope up close, touching and kissing his cross, the Pope couldn't have been more pleased. When another boy wouldn't leave the Pope's side during mass, the Pope asked his head of protocol to give the boy his chair.

Over the years, there were countless hugs and kisses, and blessings of babies. Plenty of selfies too, taken around the world. During a visit to Ecuador, Pope Francis posed for a selfie with this child in a wheelchair, before offering his blessing. The Pope often gravitated to children with disabilities. When he met this little girl from Ohio at the Vatican, she was going blind due to a genetic disorder. He kissed her, touched her face, and blessed her eyes. The tender moment brought a smile to her face. The Holy Father was so moved by this cancer survivor with Down syndrome on a family trip to Rome, that he stopped and kissed the boy's head, then suddenly offered him a ride in his Popemobile. Even when Francis was hospitalized and recovering from abdominal surgery in 2023, he made sure to visit children in the cancer ward of his Rome hospital. Perhaps, though, it was this event, where the Pope gathered with more than 7,000 children from 84 countries, that truly illustrates Pope Francis' fondness for children. He told his young audience he's happy when he meets children because they teach him something new every time, and remind him of how beautiful life is in its simplicity.

Randi Kaye, CNN.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: Pope Francis said that one of the, in his words, serious errors he made, one for which he begged forgiveness was refusing to believe that a bishop in Chile, whom he knew had covered up for priests who had sexually abused children. The Pope initially called the allegations against the bishop slander. He later commissioned an investigation on the Chilean scandal and apologized to three survivors, purportedly telling them that he was, quote, "part of the problem."

The church's global sexual abuse scandal cast a shadow over much of Francis' papacy. He did establish the Vatican's first commission on sexual abuse prevention and expelled disgraced former Washington, D.C. Cardinal Thomas -- Theodore McCarrick, whom the church found guilty of sexual abuse.

But victims and their advocates said that the church still had a lack of transparency around reports of abuse. And after the Pope's death, SNAP, or Survivors Network, of those abused by priests, issued a statement saying his reforms didn't go far enough. Quote, "The next pope must do what Francis refused, enact a universal zero-tolerance law for abuse and cover-up."

Joining me now is Kim Daniels, the director of the Initiative on Catholic Social Thought and Public Life at Georgetown University.

Kim, there's so much I want to talk to you about. Just what's your reaction, first of all, to that statement from the Survivors Network of those abused by priests?

KIM DANIELS, DIRECTOR, INITIATIVE ON CATHOLIC SOCIAL THOUGHT AND PUBLIC LIFE: First of all, you have to start from a place of recognizing that this is just such an awful scar on our church, such an injustice that's brought such pain and anger and anguish to so many. And so the place we start is by listening to victim survivors and taking what they say very seriously and responding, again, with building accountability, transparency, and responsibility in the church.

You pointed out that Pope Francis in the Chilean situation did not respond well at all at the beginning, and he ultimately recognized that through, frankly, contact with a victim survivor, Juan Carlos Cruz, who really convinced him. And Pope Francis took steps after that to respond, calling a major summit of bishops from around the world to respond to the issue, passing different canon laws, like Vos estis lux mundi, which tried to provide accountability for bishops. There's no doubt that there's much more that remains to be done, though.

COOPER: You were in St. Peter's Square when Pope Francis was elevated to the papacy. Can you just put in some perspective just how progressive, whether it was immigration or capitalism, the environment, the list goes on, his priorities were for the Catholic Church to say nothing of his overall humility?

[20:40:08]

DANIELS: Sure. I was there at the beginning at St. Peter's Square. It's so interesting to see him on the balcony on Easter Sunday just this past Sunday, which was, of course, his last blessing for the crowd, the people around the square. And before that, you know, when he was -- when he became pope, when he was elected, he spoke from that same balcony and asked everyone in the square to give him a blessing to pray for him. I'm just struck how that humility really was a hallmark of his papacy.

And, you know, I don't know that he would use the words progressive or conservative as much as he would talk about bringing the gospel to our particular time and our particular context that we're in right now. And so his priorities there throughout his papacy, I would say within the church, that meant really leading with mercy, leading with accompaniment, making sure to bring this kind of spirit of welcome and inclusiveness within our church.

And in particular, welcome the LGBTQ people, including women in the church and leadership and decision making roles. Also being sure to emphasize the global nature of our church, as it was mentioned in your previous segment, right? We are a church of one point four billion people around the world, the most multicultural and multilingual institution in the world.

So he definitely had these priorities internally. And then, of course, externally, we know of his focus on migrants and refugees, on an economy and of exclusion, on resisting populist nationalism. This is what he saw for the church.

COOPER: You mentioned gay, lesbian, transgendered people, women. At times, the pope was criticized by progressives for not going far enough on some issues and obviously criticized from conservatives for going far, you know, too far. Was he comfortable in that sort of middle ground? Do you think he was -- I remember one point he was asked about a priest who may have been gay. And he said something to the effect of, you know, who am I to judge?

Was he kind of figuring out these things himself, you think?

DANIELS: You know, you said comfortable. And I think something that's a real hallmark of Pope Francis and it's a hallmark of the Jesuit order, of which he was a part, was being comfortable in the tension between two positions, right? Understanding that these are really difficult questions that take discernment and that take really growing in knowledge and listening to others and growing.

At the same time, I would say that his main role as the leader of these 1.4 billion people around the world in many different cultures was to preserve unity. And so, as you point out, there are many differences in how people approach these very complex issues. And I think Pope Francis made many steps towards, for instance, welcoming LGBT people, recognizing where he had made mistakes.

And at the same time, he did not change church doctrine on that, right? This was more of a pastoral approach and taking some steps in the right direction in terms of being more pastoral. And at the same time, not changing doctrine, recognizing that this is an issue around which there are many, many differences in church around the world.

COOPER: Yes, certainly. Kim Daniels, such a pleasure to talk to you. Thank you very much.

Coming up next, we're going to take a look at Pope Francis and how he spoke of peace often of the plight of those living in war zones. We'll talk with chef Jose Andres, whose organization, World Central Kitchen, works in many of the conflict zones that Francis focused on. Also later, the late Pontiff's message to Congress when he visited our nation's capital a decade ago.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:47:50]

COOPER: We learned today something about what was on the pope's mind in his final days and weeks. The insight comes in the form of an op-ed published today. In it Pope Francis talked about the terrible conflict in Gaza and made a last call for peace and support for a two state solution between Israel and the Palestinians.

Joining us now, someone whose organization has done extensive work in war zones around the world, including Gaza, experienced terrible loss there. Chef Jose Andres, founder of World Central Kitchen, a nonprofit that provides meals and food relief to people in need across the globe in very innovative ways. And he's the author of a new book, "Change the Recipe Because You Can't Build a Better World Without Breaking Some Eggs."

Chef Andres, it's good to see you. I know you long admired Pope Francis' efforts to comfort those affected by poverty and war. What's going through your mind tonight as people here in Rome and around the world prepare to say goodbye?

CHEF JOSE ANDRES, WORLD CENTRAL KITCHEN: Well, what goes through my mind, I'm a Catholic boy myself will be Matthew twenty five, thirty five. And I was hungry and you gave me food. I was thirsty and you gave me a drink. I was a stranger and you welcome me very much. This was the legacy of Pope Francis, a person that believed that the church had to do a better -- a better job taking care of the poor, taking care of the refugees, taking care of children, that they are forgotten and hungry in many parts of the world.

And obviously taking care of the people in the edge of society. I think this is something like if you are Catholic or not religious or not, everybody around the world should be agreeing on.

COOPER: You've often talked about, you know, we need longer tables for more people to sit around and have conversations over food. In your new book, you write about changing the way -- you can't change the world unless you break some eggs, which is a great line. Can you just talk about what that means to you? Because so much about what Pope Francis talked about was about bringing people together and elevating the weakest among us, the forgotten among us, the poorest among us.

[20:50:00]

ANDRES: Listen, Anderson, on the first day of the October 7 attack of Hamas in Israel, World Center Kitchen, we were there taking care and helping feed the people in Israel. At the very same time, World Center Kitchen, we were in Gaza taking care of the people of Gaza. This is very much what it means building longer tables.

I have friends and people that work with World Center Kitchen in Israel that lost family members on the Hamas attack. When I was in Gaza, also, obviously, I met many people that lost loved ones as I was there. And as I saw bombs falling down in Gaza, I had people in Israel that wanted to go to help feed the people in Palestine. I had Palestinians that wanted to go to Israel to help people to be fed in the kibbutz that were attacked. At the end, that's what I see, that in the worst moments of humanity, the best of humanity shows up.

There's many more voices of goodness than voices of hate. We need to make sure that, yes, we keep the gospel and the word of Pope Francis, and we try to build a better world only by believing that there's more people of goodness than of hate. That's the world I believe Pope Francis always saw, and that's the world I believe in.

COOPER: Yes. I know you wrote on social media after the Pope's death about you regret not meeting the Pope, and you hope that even now he would, quote, "send whispers of love and peace to feed the soul, but also the flesh, to the man in darkness who used the gospel of Jesus to create chaos in the world. I hope they'll listen to your whispers, as they never acted on your words."

ANDRES: I believe that we need leaders that bring empathy forward. We need leaders that believe that with bombs we're not going to be finding solutions for tomorrow. We see right now that we have children suffering in so many places in the world. We have Ukrainian children that they've been adopted by Russians, that they moved them away from their families. How is this possible in the 21st century?

We need to make sure that obviously we build a world where children can live in peace with hope. And if we don't, all of us, fight for that very simple dream, why we want to keep living in this world? We all need to be people that believe in what Pope Francis believed, in a better world through empathy and love for the people that are voiceless. COOPER: In your new book, "Change the Recipe," you talk about lessons you've learned in areas around the world where people are reeling from disasters, natural and man-made. What do you hope people take away from the book, from those lessons?

ANDRES: That, you know, very often it seems that politics is what makes each other hate each other, fight each other, when actually politics should be about the contrary. It should be about leaders bringing all of us together to build those longer tables I'm talking about. And this is the type of leadership everybody should be supporting. They may be Republicans, they may be Democrats, they may be right or left, but at the end we need to be listening to voices that wants to bring the best within all of us, the best angels that we all have inside. This is the type of world we all need to be believing in.

COOPER: Jose Andres, thanks for bringing your voice to the program tonight on this very special night. Thank you. Again, Jose's new book is "Change the Recipe, Because You Can't Build a Better World Without Breaking Some Eggs."

Up next, Pope Francis' message for America a decade ago in his own words.

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[20:28:07]

COOPER: Pope Francis visited the United States just one time during his papacy. In September of 2015, he toured Washington, D.C., New York, and Philadelphia. In a rare instance of the Holy Father speaking English in public, he addressed a joint session of Congress. We want to share some of what he had to say on that day in his own words.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The Pope of the Holy See.

POPE FRANCIS: I am most grateful for the invitation to address this joint session of Congress in the land of the free and the home of the brave. We, the people of this continent, are not fearful of foreigners, because most of us -- because most of us were once foreigners.

We must resolve now to live as nobly and as justly as possible, as we educate new generations not to turn their back on our neighbors and everything around us. I would encourage you to keep in mind all those people around us who are trapped in a cycle of poverty. They, too, need to be given hope. The fight against poverty and hunger must be fought constantly and on many fronts, especially in its cause.

[21:00:11]

God bless America.

(END VIDEO CLIP) COOPER: A programming note, I'll be back overnight along with Isa Soares as Pope Francis' body will be transferred to St. Peter's Basilica, where he'll then lie in state for three days.

Our coverage of the procession live begins tomorrow morning at 3:00 a.m. Eastern. I hope you join us for that. The news continues right now the -- with "The Source" and Kaitlan Collins.