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Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees

Hours Away From Pope Francis' Funeral In St. Peter's Square; Trump: U.S. "Pretty Close" On Russia-Ukraine Deal; Interview With Rep. Tom Suozzi (D-NY); Pope Francis' Legacy Of Acceptance; Sister Norma Pimentel Praises The Pope For His "Simpleness" And "Humbleness"; The Grief Of Losing Six-Year-Old Son And Husband. Aired 8-9p ET

Aired April 25, 2025 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: You hear those bells tolling, of course, at nine o'clock where you are in Buenos Aires.

David, thank you so very much and such poignant reports out through this week from that special place to the Pope.

So, please join us here on CNN for special live coverage of his funeral starting at 3:00 A.M. Eastern. It's time now for Anderson.

[00:00:36]

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: Good evening, it is Saturday morning here at Saint Peter's Square behind me, the funeral of Pope Francis, now just eight hours away. The Square is closed at the moment. It will reopen at 7:00 A.M. local time, just three hours ahead of what is expected to be the largest single event here since the funeral of Pope John Paul II 20 years ago this month.

Italy's Interior Ministry expects more than 200,000 people to attend and about a quarter million people from every corner of the world have already paid their final respects filing past the simple coffin on a Spartan platform to say a prayer, to reflect and say goodbye.

Then, in a private ceremony led by a Cardinal Camerlengo Kevin Farrell, the church's acting head, a white silk veil was spread over the late Pope's face, his body sprinkled with holy water. Let's pause and listen for a moment.

Finally, in a gesture officially ending this three-day lying in state period, the coffin was closed and sealed, and then the basilica was filled with the sound of the "Hymn to Mary, the Mother of Christ."

Outside, all day today, and in fact, ever since Pope Francis died, security, of course, has been ramping up, the effort complicated by his desire to be buried outside the walls of the Vatican, several miles away from us, meaning a funeral procession through the streets of Rome and many points along the way to safeguard. That and potentially upwards of a hundred foreign delegations, all here for the funeral.

The President and First Lady arrived a short time ago aboard Air Force One. He was asked whether he'd be speaking with some of his global counterparts.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REPORTER: Who are you attending?

DONALD TRUMP (R) PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: Some people in Rome, yes. And a little bit quickly, and frankly, it's a little disrespectful to have meetings when you're at the funeral of a Pope, they say. But I'll be talking to people. I'll be seeing a lot of people, including the, yes, including the Prime Minister of Italy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: Again, about 200,000 people are expected here for the funeral.

I spent part of the day with mourners in the Square getting a firsthand look at preparations and security, also tracing the route the funeral procession will take from here to the Basilica Maria Maggiore, where the Pope will be buried.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER (on camera): There are thousands of people who are still waiting to get in to see Pope Francis. This is the last day they'll have that opportunity. They've already started to set up for the funeral, which is to take place here in Saint Peter's Square. It's going to be outdoors. As you can see, they've set up platforms for journalists to broadcast from. And there are a number of media organizations as well have rented spaces on rooftops around here to get a vantage point. This service is going to take place outdoors in Saint Peter's Square.

But the Pope is not going to be buried here in Vatican City. He's going to be buried in Rome. We want to show you the route his procession is likely to take.

This is the Porta del Perugina. It is the exit through which the Pope's casket will come as it leaves Saint Peter's Basilica. It goes by Casa Santa Marta, where the Pope lived all these years.

The casket will then come down this road in this direction, actually leaving Vatican City now and entering the City of Rome.

COOPER (voice over): The route is filled with traffic now, but it will be closed off on Saturday, and it's likely many thousands of people will line the sidewalks trying to catch a glimpse of the Pope's coffin. His casket will pass this Baroque Church. Francis was the first Jesuit to become Pope, and this is the first Jesuit Church in Rome -- Chiesa del Gesu.

The motorcade will also pass the Piazza Venezia and another site familiar to many tourists, the Coliseum, before finally arriving at its destination.

COOPER: (on camera): And this is where Pope Francis will finally be laid to rest, where he'll be entombed. It's the Basilica of Santa Maria Maggiore. It's a basilica Pope Francis often visited that he loved and that he requested he be buried here.

The Vatican has already released an image of his tomb. It is, as the Pope requested, very simple. Just an inscription of his name, Franciscus, and a depiction of his Pectoral Cross. He will be the Pope to be buried outside Vatican City in more than a hundred years.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

[20:05:24]

COOPER: Joining me now are two people who have been providing perspective for us all this week, Colm Flynn, Vatican correspondent for EWTN News and Father Patrick Mary Briscoe, editor of "Our Sunday Visitor," national Catholic newspaper.

Father Briscoe, you spent the day here, much of it in the Square. What was it like?

FATHER PATRICK MARY BRISCOE, HOST, "GODSPLAINING" PODCAST: Anderson, I was so struck by the joy that people were expressing today because unlike the previous days, which had to me felt more solemn. Today, we had all the young pilgrims beginning to arrive.

Many of these young people, of course, had been had been anticipating attending all the jubilee events for young people and the canonization event of another great young blessed, and now they're faced with attending the funeral mass for the Pope. So, it's really quite a transition.

COOPER: And, Colm, a lot has been made about how Pope Francis sort of tried to simplify some, not only of the funeral -- what the funeral would be like, but other aspects of the papacy. What do you expect for tomorrow? There's still obviously, rights --

COLM FLYNN, VATICAN CORRESPONDENT, EWTN NEWS: Yes, Anderson, I don't think there's any such thing as a simple papal funeral. You will still have that rich tradition and the Liturgy, It will be steeped in beauty and the culture of the church. But ever since the beginning, 2013, that was Francis' ethos. The papal palace just behind us, he said, I'm not staying there, I'm staying in the guest house.

An hour outside of Rome, you have Castel Gandolfo with the summer palace, where popes would stay for the entire summer. Francis' message was, well, the poor would never go to a summer palace, so I'm going to leave that as well.

So, now that we have the funeral, I think it will be much the same as past funerals for popes. But it will be the burial, as you see, that tombstone with just his name in it in Latin -- Francis. And the funeral is being covered, the cost of it. That was another incredible thing that we learned when they released this testimony --

COOPER: He got somebody to donate money to --

FLYNN: He arranged for it all to be paid for it, so it wouldn't come from the faithful money from the church, but that money could still be used for the poor. And, you know, we met the other day inside the Basilica as people were going into pay their last respects. I found it actually more emotional than I thought I would. And we got to go right up beside the coffin.

Now, we know that there had been a problem at the start of this, with people taking selfies and maybe being a bit irreverent, but, you know, the Vatican officials were trying to keep it graceful and peaceful. And when my wife and I, who we met covering Pope Francis. So, that's how special it is. I saw the tears in her eyes and actually, when I saw Pope Francis looking much different, lying in that coffin, it was an incredible moment. You could see this is the end of a papacy, and this is ushering in a new one. And, you know, heading into the future for the Catholic Church.

COOPER: It's also, I mean, Father, what we're going to see tomorrow is something we have not seen in modern times, certainly not televised like this, of Pope being moved through the streets of Rome in a procession to go to this Basilica.

FATHER BRISCOE: I think the procession is so important, Anderson, because the procession is something that most Catholics will experience as part of a funeral mass, and so we feel, in a certain way, familiar, taking your grandfather, you know, to say your last goodbye to him. And the procession symbolizes what Catholics believe, that we're all journeying towards something, journeying towards our end, our final destination, the ultimate point of it all.

And, I think that it will give people all the opportunity for one last farewell, which is so beautiful, but also it will symbolize what Pope Francis called for at the very beginning of his papacy. In his first words, after he was elected, calling for all of us to be journeying together.

COOPER: It is a chance, Colm, for many people, maybe, who didn't get a chance to come here, or even if they did, to line the streets, to see him, to look outside their windows and see him.

FLYNN: Yes, it's another opportunity to say goodbye. And we were told yesterday by Sant'egidio, which is a community here who look after refugees and the migrants, they're not part of the Vatican, but they're right next to the Vatican. And Pope Francis gave them huge support throughout his papacy. They told us that lining the steps of the Basilica of Mary Major will be the poor and the needy of Rome. They will be the last to say goodbye to Pope Francis.

COOPER: I, also -- I drove that route today, and there's a number of sort of landmarks that have personal significance. I mean, there's the first church of the Jesuits.

FATHER BRISCOE: The Jesuits, yes.

COOPER: Right, there's a Piazza of Argentina that you pass by as well.

FATHER BRISCOE: It's like landmarks, all these great memories that come out. I think, that's part of the difficulty of going to a funeral mass, is that you have all of all of these wonderful memories that's the cause of joy, the sorrow with saying goodbye. But then, then the sense that you have something to carry forward.

FLYNN: You know, it's a beautiful image, today it really struck me when they were sealing his coffin before they did that. You know, they had the two pages that struck me. You know, we all get caught up in our lives and what we've done. Two simple pages summarizing his entire life and everything he achieved put into the coffin. But when they put the white silk in his face, representing that, okay, you are going to experience the darkness of this world. When they put the lid on the coffin you're in darkness forevermore, but the light of God will always be in your face.

[20:10:25]

COOPER: I also think there's such power in seeing all this and showing it. Because this is something we often sort of hideaway and dress up as pretty and, you know, put makeup on people who are dead and, you know, talk in hushed whispers. You're seeing everything. And I think there's such -- there's such strength and power and meaning in that.

FLYNN: One of the very solemn moments that will happen at the end of the mass is the casket will be blessed with Holy Water and incensed. Two symbols, two ritual acts that Catholics will be familiar with, and others who have seen a Catholic funeral and eventually a great hymn will be sung called the "In Paradisum" and that hymn begins with the words, "May the angels lead you into paradise."

And so, these familiar rituals give us a sense of comfort and great consolation as we enter into those prayers.

COOPER: Thank you for being with us on this eve of the funeral. I appreciate it, both of you.

Building on our conversation just now about what this Pope did starting from day one, to move his papacy away from some of the pomp and grandeur of the past and bring it closer to people, the church ministers, to especially the least fortunate among us during Holy Week.

In his first year as Pope, he washed the feet of 12 inmates, including two Muslims, at a Rome prison. It was a tradition he'd continue, even as his health and body were failing him. Clarissa Ward has more.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CLARISSA WARD, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Behind the high walls and barbed wire and Rebibbia Women's Prison. It's easy to feel forgotten, but that changed one day in late March of last year with a visit from Pope Francis.

Sitting in his wheelchair, the Pope engaged in a centuries old pre- Easter ritual, washing the feet of 12 inmates.

Dorota, who has spent a decade behind bars, was first inline.

DOROTA, INMATE (through translator): When I got on the stage and the Pope got close to me, I felt a very strong emotion. I was shaking. And the thing that really struck me the most was that I felt a true warm kiss on my feet, something that can't be described. It will never happen again in my life.

WARD (on camera): Did you feel that you were in the presence of someone who is close to God?

DOROTA (through translator): Yes, I could feel a lot of humility in him. I saw that he is good. A man with a big heart that is close to us, a very religious person, an extraordinary person.

WARD (voice over): The foot washing ritual seeks to imitate Jesus Christ, washing his disciple's feet the night before his death. This was the first time a Pope washed the feet of all women, a striking departure from his predecessor, Benedict, who only washed the feet of men, and later only the feet of priests.

WARD (on camera): And what do you think made this Pope special or different? Why do you think it is that he had the ability to touch so many hearts?

DOROTA (through translator): Because he was truly a good Pope. The Pope of the people, of all the poor, of everyone in need -- the prisoners, the homeless, he was there with his heart.

WARD (on camera): I asked if the other women felt the same way.

DOROTA (through translator): Yes, in fact, here, I have a paper with some thoughts from the other inmates.

For us inmates, the Pope's visit was very emotional. Through Pope Francis, we felt as though our hearts had received true forgiveness. We felt seen and understood. He never abandoned us. Not even in his final days.

WARD (voice over): Returning to her cell, Dorota said she won't be watching the funeral on T.V. it would be too painful. Instead, she'll carry the memory of that meeting when Pope Francis brought warmth to the hardest of places.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: Clarissa joins me now. I love that she brought messages from others who had met him.

WARD: Yes, I think they were all so profoundly affected by this experience, because these are people who traditionally feel that they're not seen, that they're invisible to society. They live on the margins and Pope Francis really went above and beyond time and time again to show them that they mattered, that they were loved, that their prayers were being listened to.

COOPER: And they remember that feeling all these years later.

WARD: They remember it all these years later and, Dorota, told us, you know, it was a life changing event for her. It brought her closer to God. It made her think a lot about what she wants to do when she finally does get out of prison, the legacy she wants to leave, the work that she wants to do with the poor.

So, it's just incredible to see across so many different strata of society the impact that this man and his ideas about what Christianity should really be about, had on people.

[20:15:30]

COOPER: Clarissa Ward, thank you so much, appreciate it.

Coming up next, we'll touch on some domestic news. Back in the United States, the arrest of a sitting judge by federal agents and the outcry over it.

Also, the latest on efforts to end the war in Ukraine that the President tonight said are, "close to a deal." And we'll have a lot more from Vatican City as well. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:20:14]

COOPER: Protesters rally outside the county courthouse in Milwaukee today, turning out in support of a local circuit judge arrested FBI in a case which is now part of a national debate over immigrant enforcement, which has the put the Trump administration at odds with federal judges.

And now, a local judge named Hannah Dugan, she's facing two charges tonight for allegedly helping an undocumented immigrant avoid arrest. For more on all of this, CNN chief law enforcement and intelligence analyst, John Miller joins me now.

So, what else do we know about why this judge was arrested and the charges against her?

JOHN MILLER, CNN CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT AND INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: Well, they're clearly trying to send a signal here because it wasn't an arrest like we're unsealing charges, show up with your lawyer for arraignment. This is -- they came to the courthouse, they put her in handcuffs. They took her to the federal courthouse, put her in a holding cell. They were trying to send a message that you don't have to help us in immigration matters, but if you're actively trying to thwart us, there's going to be a price to be paid.

COOPER: According to these charges where does the FBI say that she crossed the line. And it seems very unusual for a sitting judge to be arrested like this.

MILLER: So here's what happened. They went to the courthouse to arrest Eduardo Flores-Ruiz. They've been trying to deport him since 2013. And when they saw he was going to be in court, they showed up in the courtroom. He was there for an assault and battery case and a domestic incident with a family member or a spouse, and they wanted to pick him up there and take him into custody.

The judge asked them to leave the courtroom, then said that they had to go see the chief judge. And this is where they say, Anderson, she crossed the line. They said instead of letting the case proceed and then letting him leave the courthouse where they waited in the public area outside, she adjourned the case while they were outside of the room, and then called him up to the bench and gave Mr. Ruiz-Flores a walk out the jury entrance, a nonpublic hallway that led to another door where the lawyer was told to catch up to him, get in the elevator and leave the courthouse.

So, they're saying you don't have to aid in a federal matter in civil immigration, but if it appears you are actively trying to obstruct our efforts by going out of your way to do so, that's where they say she crossed the line and charged her with two fairly serious federal charges -- obstruction and basically assisting a fugitive.

COOPER: All right, John Miller, appreciate that.

I want to turn now to overseas. The President posted this on his social network. "Just landed in Rome, a good day in talks and meetings with Russia and Ukraine. They're very close to a deal. The two sides should now meet at very high levels to finish it off. Most of the major points are agreed to."

This comes in the wake of a U.S.-Russian meeting earlier today at the Kremlin. We'll have more on that right now from CNN's Fred Pleitgen.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

STEVE WITKOFF, UNITED STATES SPECIAL ENVOY: How are you, Mr. President?

(VLADIMIR PUTIN speaking in foreign language.)

FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice over): A warm welcome from the Russian leader, but then straight down to business. Vladimir Putin, lined by two of his top expert negotiators, President Trumps envoy, Steve Witkoff, without any other senior U.S. officials in his corner.

After three hours behind closed doors, the Russian say some progress was made.

"This conversation allowed for further rapprochement between the positions of Russia and the United States, not only on Ukraine, but also on a number of other international issues," a Russian negotiator told reporters by phone.

PLEITGEN (on camera): As President Trump's special negotiator, Steve Witkoff met with Russian leader Vladimir Putin, the Russians, too say that they want a deal as fast as possible, but they won't sign anything that could harm Russia's national interests.

PLEITGEN (voice over): While Witkoff and Kirill Dmitriev, part of Russia's negotiating team, took a stroll down a shopping street in central Moscow before the Kremlin talks.

TRUMP: No, no, you've done a lot of talking. PLEITGEN (voice over): President Trump applied pressure on Ukraine's leadership in an interview with "Time" Magazine. Outright, saying the Crimean Peninsula, which Putin annexed in 2014, will stay with Russia and that he believes Ukraine's desire to join NATO was one of the root causes leading to Russia's full on invasion in 2022. All while later claiming a deal may be close at hand.

TRUMP: I think Russia and Ukraine, I think they're coming along, we hope, very fragile.

PLEITGEN (voice over): Fragile and violent -- the talks come as Ukraine is still reeling from a powerful Russian missile attack that left dozens killed and wounded on Thursday.

And today, a Russian general was killed by a car bomb outside Moscow, leaving the Russians fuming. While Ukraine has not commented, Moscow is blaming Kyiv's intelligence services.

(UNIDENTIFIED MALE speaking in foreign language.)

PLEITGEN (voice over): "This once again shows that despite the peace talks, we must be on guard and understand the essence of this regime." Putin's spokesman says.

How and when those talks will continue is up for debate as President Trump says, his patience is increasingly running thin.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

[20:25:21]

PLEITGEN (on camera): And, Anderson, there seem to be two proposals essentially on the table here. One comes from the Ukrainians and the Europeans, and that one calls for an immediate ceasefire and for Ukraine to get NATO like security guarantees and then there's one from the Trump administration that calls for the U.S. to de facto recognize Crimea as being Russian, also calls for security guarantees for Ukraine, but also specifically says that Ukraine will not be part of NATO and grants the Russians massive sanctions relief -- Anderson.

COOPER: Fred Pleitgen in Moscow for us tonight. Thanks very much.

I'm joined now by Democratic Congressman Tom Suozzi of New York. He's a member of the Congressional Ukraine Caucus as part of a bipartisan group of ten lawmakers in Rome to attend funeral services for Pope Francis. When you see the U.S. Special Envoy meeting essentially alone with Vladimir Putin, what do you make of what's going on?

REP. TOM SUOZZI (D-NEW YORK): You know, I know Steve Witkoff from New York, and I respect him, and he's a great guy. But this is very difficult, complicated matters with very sophisticated adversaries that we're dealing with here. And there is a challenge sometimes when every smart, charismatic person thinks, if only I could meet with them, I could convince them as to merit my ways, and this is much more complicated than that. There are so many underlying issues here. We have to go back to the basics. Zelenskyy is a Democratically elected President that's our ally. Putin is a dictator that invaded Ukraine. We cannot, when everything is said and done, reward Putin for his behavior. It'd be the same as World War II of appeasing Hitler. You can't do that.

COOPER: It seems like the sides I mean, the U.S. and Russia have seemed like one deal. What Zelenskyy wants is very, very different.

SUOZZI: Well, it's not just Zelenskyy. I mean, this is what the U.S. and NATO and everybody in the west has said for years is that you can't appease Hitler, you can't appease Putin, you can't reward him for his behavior.

So, we really have to recognize that there are some basic fundamental values here that we can't abandon. President Trump campaigned on that he would end the war in 24 hours. Now we all want peace, we're here in Rome, okay, blessed are the peacemakers. We want peace. We encourage activities to push for peace. But we cannot end up with a situation where we reward Putin.

COOPER: What is it for you to -- what is it like for you to be here on this occasion? You've met Pope Francis in the past.

SUOZZI: This is such a great honor for me to be here as part of a delegation from the United States. I did meet Pope Francis in the past. I met him here right out at Saint Peter's Square. And, I learned a lot from Pope Francis, listening to him, when he when he said, you know, when somebody asks you for money, what should you do? And they said, well, what if the person wants to buy some wine with it and get drunk? He said, who are you to judge? He said, just give them the money. Don't deny them an opportunity to have some happiness. What do you do to seek happiness?

Just give and I can't tell you how you know everyone. You see people in the street, they ask you for money and you're like, well, should I really just do it. Just look for the face of God and people, in poor people and homeless people and the migrants. Don't judge people.

COOPER: Is it a sad occasion for you? Obviously, as a person of faith, do there is, you know, a man has died and yet also given his belief system, he had a firm idea of what awaited him.

SUOZZI: Yes, this is not a sad occasion. This is a celebration of his life and of his legacy and of the life ahead of him. And we all believe if for Catholics, Christians, that there's a life more. This is just the beginning of the journey that you're on. Now, it's hard for us to understand that at the --

COOPER: He talked about it as a new beginning.

SUOZZI: Yes.

COOPER: Yes.

SUOZZI: And so, let's just remember the basic values that we, you know, the world is so tough today. Everything's moving so fast. There's so many things happening. Love one another. Forgive one another. Don't judge people. Those are great things to live by.

COOPER: Have you -- have you been to a papal funeral before?

SUOZZI: No, but I've been here at the Vatican. I was here on my honeymoon with my wife. We were blessed by Pope Saint John Paul II.

COOPER: Wow, what was that like?

SUOZZI: That was -- we were crying our eyes out. It was unbelievable.

COOPER: That was on your honeymoon?

SUOZZI: It was our honeymoon. We were supposed to -- 1993. It was really amazing. And we met Pope Francis here when I was out of politics in 2023, we came here for the canonization of a Saint.

COOPER: And your dad came from Italy.

SUOZZI: My father was born in Italy, came to the United States as a young boy, lived a great American success story and --

COOPER: Fought in World War II for the U.S.

SUOZZI: Yes, my father was a great American success story. He was a World War II hero, a navigator on a B-24, got the Distinguished Flying Cross and went to Harvard law school after that. What a country.

So, I, you know, I love our country. And so, you know, you think about immigration, about what a tough issue it is now, I define my whole look of America through the lens of the American Dream and immigrants.

[20:30:03]

It's painful for me that immigration has become such a tough issue.

COOPER: Well, especially when you think about the way Italians were treated back then when your father came.

SUOZZI: Oh yes. And my father, even after he graduated from Harvard, couldn't get a job at a law firm because Italians were not liked because they had fought with the Germans during World War II. And that and the mafia, and you couldn't get to first base.

And then he went back to our hometown, teamed up with another Italian guy, and ran for city court judge, and at 28 years old, became the youngest judge --

COOPER: Wow.

SUOZZI: -- in the history of New York State.

COOPER: Wow.

SUOZZI: So --

COOPER: Such an American story (ph). SUOZZI: I love America. I love our country. Let's work together. Let's try and solve problems and make people's lives better.

Congressman Suozzi, I appreciate your time.

SUOZZI: Thank you.

COOPER: I'm glad you're here.

SUOZZI: Coming up next, perspective on the passing of Pope Francis from Andrew Sullivan, who's written often and eloquently about the Pope, the Church, and his own Catholic faith.

And later, in light of the Pope's death, we've just released a new episode on my podcast about grief and loss, All There Is. It's a moving conversation with Elaine Pagels, a professor of religion about the loss of her young son, Mark, and her husband, Heinz.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:35:38]

COOPER: As we've been talking about this week, Pope Francis was known for his love of those on the margins, immigrants, the poor, those too often shunted aside. My next guest has written extensively about his Catholic faith. Andrew Sullivan joins me now, he writes "The Weekly Dish" newsletter on Substack.

Andrew, I read a piece you wrote on your Substack, and I just found it incredibly moving. I want to ask you about it. You said that you realized Pope Francis was a different kind of Pope the moment he came out on the balcony after his election and asked the people assembled to pray for him. What was it about that was so significant to you?

ANDREW SULLIVAN, WRITER, THE WEEKLY DISH: Well, first of all, he wore rather plain vestments. He was apparently shown the whole range of possible vestments his predecessor had used, and he just looked at them and said, no, the carnival is over.

And then he came out onto the balcony, and normally we would wait for him to bless us. But, in fact, what he did was something really quite remarkable. First of all, he said, good afternoon, which is, the Pope doesn't say that.

And then he talked about himself as they found a bishop for the Diocese of Rome. Again, remarkable. And then he did something even more striking, was he asked us to pray for him.

Now think about that for a second. We'd had two popes, a very authoritarian Paul, John Paul II, for all his great virtues. He was very harsh and very authoritative.

And then we had Benedict, who was even more authoritarian. And suddenly we had this regular person who came out, smiled, this Italian, and said, pray for me. And that was in an instant, a revolution. COOPER: One of the things you wrote, you said, "Faith for Francis was not rigidity, it was not always certain, and it was not words. It was a way of life, of giving, of loving, of emptying oneself to listen to God without trying to force a conclusion -- of discernment, as the Jesuits like to say".

Can you talk about that? It's so interesting to me that the way you felt he viewed his faith.

SULLIVAN: Yes. Look, there's doctrine and there's eternal truth, and we shouldn't deny that at all. And in fact, Francis didn't change doctrine one iota. But what he was telling us was that doctrine means nothing without love. That what Jesus came to tell us was that I'm not here to give you doctrines. I'm here to tell you how to live.

I've been struggling for a long time as a gay Catholic to feel that I belonged, that I wasn't supposed to be gone, that I wasn't morally disordered, as the previous Pope had told me I was, in the middle of an epidemic where I saw so many people die in front of me.

And Francis told me, if you want and sincerely want to follow Christ, I'm not going to judge you for being gay. That's what he meant by, who am I to judge? It's a universal church. It's for everyone.

And it had begun to seem as if it was not for everyone. And he told us, it is. Come in. And he did so with a smile and with that gentle Italian voice that I have to say, when I heard him say those things, and I think many others felt this way too, it was like a dam breaking inside of us.

We'd waited so long for Pope just to say that God loves you as well. And he did that. And I will always remember it. And he kept me in the faith.

COOPER: One of the things that he wrote, which has come out posthumously, is he said that he wrote in February, death is not the end. It is the beginning of something, a new beginning. He went on to call it.

So I wonder, given that conviction that he had, are you sad at this hour over his death? Or is there also -- is it also tinged with joy because of what he believed and perhaps what you believe about what happens next?

[20:40:01]

SULLIVAN: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. There is grief that he's gone because when he was there, there was someone there you could always feel was a human being. I saw in him very much the spirit of Jesus. And that's who we're really -- when we talk about all these other issues, the Pope's pronouncements on this, that and the other, we're not. He told us, stop doing that.

Sit down, look around you and love one another. And when you do that, everything else will follow. It was a simple message and a beautiful one and the most authentically Catholic one that there is. COOPER: Yes. Andrew Sullivan, it's lovely to talk to you on this eve of the Pope's funeral. Thank you so much.

SULLIVAN: Thank you for having me.

COOPER: Next, my conversation with the nun who knew Pope Francis and paid her respects here in Vatican City.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:45:37]

COOPER: Among the quarter million people who came to pay their final respects to Pope Francis, was a woman who at times had been called the Pope's favorite nun. Sister Norma Pimentel, who serves as the executive director of Catholic Charities with the Rio Grande Valley, had the honor of meeting Pope Francis several times and was praised for her extensive work with migrants.

At a virtual event in 2015, she was even singled out by the Pope.

(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)

COOPER: You visited --

SISTER NORMA PIMENTEL, MISSIONARIES OF JESUS: Yes.

COOPER: -- inside this morning. What was it like?

PIMENTEL: I was -- it's hard to say, but the moment I was able to kneel down right there before him, I just tried to cry. It was so hard.

COOPER: You were able to actually kneel?

PIMENTEL: Yes, right in front. Right there.

COOPER: You've not been to a funeral of the Pope before?

PIMENTEL: No, I never even thought I was going to be here today. No. And all of a sudden, you know, they were -- yesterday, and I thought I really would have loved that. And they said, why don't you go? You know? And I said, but how do I do that? It's impossible at the last minute, even the word to stay and everything.

And this lady calls the office and says, Sister Norma, I just saw her on TV and let her know that I will pay for her trip so she can go to Rome.

COOPER: Thoughtfully (ph).

PIMENTEL: I said, like, I was just thinking that. And here this lady calls me from San Benito, Texas, and I go, wow. Crazy.

COOPER: Why did you want to be here?

PIMENTEL: Because he started something in me back in 2014, 2015, when he called me out and he wanted to meet me.

COOPER: He called you out though --

PIMENTEL: Yes.

COOPER: -- in a meeting.

PIMENTEL: To the world, you know. I don't know if this is the right thing for a Pope to say this, but I'm going to say it anyway. I love you very much, you know. And for him to say that, I think all of you decided, well, she must be the Pope's favorite nun, you know?

COOPER: What was it about him that so inspired you?

PIMENTEL: His simpleness, his humbleness, his connectedness to the people, the simple people. He was always there for the ones that are most at the peripheries, at the margins, the ones that are pushed aside. He always wanted us --

COOPER: The elderly, the disabled.

PIMENTEL: The children --

COOPER: The poor, migrants.

PIMENTEL: -- and the sick, the migrants, anyone who was pushed aside, he was always reaching out to them, embracing them, loving them. He showed us how to love and how to be who we need to be here in our world today.

COOPER: His care about migrants, is that something that has motivated you in your work?

PIMENTEL: Well, you know, I was doing that. And when he really made it known that he was so happy of what we were doing in South Texas at the border, and he simply say, continue to have that courage, that leadership, that strength to reach out and receive all these families that he reinforced the good work that we were doing, all of us there at the border.

Every single body in South Texas joined me in responding like we did, you know. And so I think that he's teaching us how to put aside things that we hold as far as laws and policies and doctrines and say, look at that person. Don't overlook the fact that there are people.

And we -- let's try to make sure we create the way we move forward in ways that we respect the human person, their dignity. And so I don't see how anyone could be against that.

COOPER: Thank you so much.

PIMENTEL: Thank you.

(END VIDEO TAPE)

COOPER: Coming up next, a powerful message on grief from Elaine Pagels, who lost her young son and husband. A preview of a special new episode of my podcast, All There Is, which is just out now and available wherever you get your podcasts. That's coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:54:04]

COOPER: It is nearly 3:00 a.m. here in Vatican City. The funeral of Pope Francis just seven hours from now. In four hours, St. Peter's Square will reopen and an estimated 200,000 mourners will make their way in. The ceremonies will take place outside here just over my shoulder.

They're expected to last about 90 minutes. Afterwards, a procession to the Rome Basilica where the pope will be buried. There's a quote from the pontiff about loss that came to light just days ago that stuck with me. His message I touched on earlier, "Death is not the end of everything, but the beginning of something". I wrote that a couple of months ago for the preface of a book that was released this week.

I decided to put out a special episode of my podcast about grief, All There Is, it's now available wherever you get your podcast. It just came out about an hour ago. QR code on the screen. You can point your camera at right now and it'll take you there. Or as I said, you can find it wherever you get your podcast.

I also have an interview with Elaine Pagels, a religion professor at Princeton University who lost her son, Mark, and her husband, Heinz, about a year apart. Her latest book is "Miracles and Wonder: The Historical Mystery of Jesus".

[20:55:08]

And I talked with Elaine about her faith and about the death of her son and her husband. Here's some of that conversation.

(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)

COOPER: How did he die?

ELAINE PAGELS, RELIGION PROFESSOR: Well, he had been in school every day that week, but because his heart was getting weaker, he wasn't feeling too well. So I took him to the hospital and they took some blood. And at that point, he just went into cardiac arrest. And I ran down the hall with him in my arms, yelling for doctors.

And about -- I want to say 20 of them came into that room and started working on his heart. And I talked to him slowly and carefully and clearly throughout that process. And at a certain point, I felt that the connection I felt with him snapped and that he was not there. We could feel it happen.

He breathed out and it was like I could see like a little trace of silver up on the ceiling and a feeling that that was -- he was departing. And after that, he didn't seem to be there anymore. That's just how it felt. I just felt that he'd gone. He was no longer in the room.

COOPER: Your parents did not come to Mark's funeral or talk about his death at all.

PAGELS: They just kind of were totally silent.

COOPER: I mean, that's --

PAGELS: They didn't want to discuss it. And that's how I was brought up too.

COOPER: It's stunning to me that this is your mom and dad not acknowledging the death of your child.

PAGELS: I think they didn't have any language for that. I don't understand that.

COOPER: How long after Mark died did Heinz die?

PAGELS: Oh, well, it was about a year. He went out hiking as he had for 22 years, twice a week. But one -- on one hike, he simply fell on the way back 2,000 feet and probably died within seconds.

COOPER: I was stunned to read the date that Heinz died. Heinz died July 23rd, 1988.

PAGELS: Yes.

COOPER: And my brother Carter died July 22nd, 1988, one day apart.

PAGELS: Yes.

COOPER: And both fell, different circumstances. But I just find it so strange to think you were in Colorado, I was in New York, a day apart. Our lives changed forever.

PAGELS: Yes. And we lived in New York, of course, and --

COOPER: And my brother went to Princeton, where you taught.

PAGELS: Yes.

COOPER: For years, and even still to this day, that date, July 22nd, is so fraught for me. Was July 23rd fraught for you for a long time?

PAGELS: Oh, absolutely. For a very long time. It would come up like a tidal wave. You feel it coming, and you feel it coming, and feel it coming until that day, and then it would kind of crash and maybe release a bit.

But it was 35 years, Anderson, before I felt I could really go into the black hole of the grief for both the people. They were my entire family. I had my husband and my child at the time. And I couldn't go near there.

COOPER: You had to suppress or bury grief to a certain extent to function.

PAGELS: Yes. And I did it quite successfully. You're working full- time, and you're writing books. I didn't have time to think, and that was part of the point. Just keep busy.

COOPER: A therapist said to you, you have no choice about how you feel about this. Your only choice is whether to feel it now or later.

PAGELS: She was right. She'd been through it. If you try to hold it in and pretend it isn't there, it's not going away. That if you don't find ways to release it gradually, or suddenly, or however it happens, you will be suffering more than necessary.

COOPER: What would you say if somebody asked you, how am I going to get through this?

PAGELS: I would say, it's hard to imagine that you can get through this. It's certainly been hard for me. The surprise is that it can change eventually.

COOPER: And it does change.

PAGELS: Yes. And you can have a wonderful life again, which didn't seem possible to me then. This is not a sad story. This is a story about coming back to life. It doesn't seem possible then, but it is.

(END VIDEOCLIP)

COOPER: A story about coming back to life. You can listen to the full conversation with Elaine Pagels in this new special episode of my podcast, All There Is. Again, it's out now, wherever you get your podcasts.

You can point your phone's camera at the QR code on your screen. You can also go to CNN.com/allthereisonline. I hope you always remember you're never alone in your grief.

A programming note, I'll be back in just six hours, along with CNN's Clarissa Ward and Christopher Lamb and others, for a special live coverage of Pope Francis' funeral from here in St. Peter's Square in Vatican City, starting at 3:00 a.m. Eastern Time.

That's it for us right now. The news continues. The Source with Kaitlan Collins starts now.