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Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees
Judge Sets New May 5th Deadline for DOJ to Provide Details in Abrego Garcia Case; Interview with Rep. Dan Goldman (D-NY); Trump Blames Biden for Economic Woes; Trump Blames Biden for the Shrinking American Economy; U.S. And Ukraine Sign Critical Minerals Deal; 11 High School Lacrosse Players Surrender to Police in Syracuse, New York. Aired 8-9p ET
Aired April 30, 2025 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP (R) PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: ... to stay as long as you want at some point. I guess, he wants to get back home to his cars and his --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: Of course, just for, you know, reporting reasons and, you know, financials that he'd have to put out. He can't stay much longer, but he needs to get back to his cars for the very obvious reason. This has been brutal for Tesla. Sales down for the first time in the company's history.
Shares had plunged from the peak in December. Musk's net approval rating now in the red now, minus 17 points. While he's stepping back though he won't be gone. He tells investors he'll be spending a couple of days a week on DOGE for the entire remainder of Trump's term. Thanks for watching, it's time for Anderson.
[20:00:40]
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, "ANDERSON COOPER: 360": Tonight on 360, the President says he could obey the courts and help bring back a wrongly deported man from El Salvador, but he won't and his Secretary of State suggests that he would defy the courts completely.
Also tonight, it happened the last time the Cabinet met and today happened again, a round table of fawning praise for the President from just about every Cabinet Secretary.
And later, 11 high school lacrosse players turned themselves in after being accused of victimizing five younger players in what law enforcement said was way beyond hazing.
Good evening, thanks for joining us. We begin tonight with new developments in the case of a wrongly deported man from El Salvador and new signs of defiance from the administration in that case. This includes the President of the United States saying he could facilitate that man's return, but won't even though the Supreme Court unanimously said that he must, and the Secretary of State signaling that he won't give a federal judge the information she's seeking about the administration's efforts, if any, to get him back, even though she has given the government a strict deadline to provide it and issue new orders today.
Well, that's where things stand tonight in the case of Kilmar Abrego Garcia, the man -- the Maryland man who was sent to El Salvador in this notorious CECOT prison, even though a court had ordered that he should not be deported to the country, let alone to a prison there.
And though the deportation may have been an error, the administration's response ever since has approached outright defiance of the Judicial Branch. The judge in the case seems to think so and the Supreme Court, in a nine-zero ruling, suggests that the administration is not doing enough, affirming that the judge's order to facilitate Abrego Garcia's return.
ABC news' Terry Moran asked the President about that during a taped interview which aired last night.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TERRY MORAN, ABC NEWS, SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: You could get him back. There's a phone on this desk.
TRUMP: I could.
MORAN: You could pick it up and with all the power of the presidency, you could call up the President of El Salvador and say, send him back right now.
TRUMP: And if he were the gentleman that you say he is, I would do that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: So there he is, saying that he will not do what the judge ordered him to with the Supreme Court's concurrence, which flies in the face of prior arguments from the administration, that they simply could not do it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PAM BONDI, U.S. ATTORNEY GENERAL: That's up to El Salvador. If they want to return him, that's not up to us.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: That said, multiple sources tell CNN that Secretary of State Rubio and El Salvador's President have been directly in touch about the case. And though one U.S. official says that the administration has asked President Bukele to return Abrego Garcia, it's not fully clear whether getting him back is even the goal of these talks at all. That's because multiple officials tell us the opposite, saying the administration is neither seeking his return nor looking to grant him any additional due process in either country. And if this is all very murky at this point, no one in the administration seems willing to clear it up, not even the judge in this case. Here's what Secretary of State Rubio said at today's Cabinet meeting, when asked whether he's been talking with El Salvador about Abrego Garcia.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARCO RUBIO, U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: I would never tell you that. And you know who else I'll never tell, a judge, because the conduct of our foreign policy belongs to the President of the United States and the Executive Branch, not some judge.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: That judge today denied an administration request for more time to provide such answers and set a May 5th deadline to do it. Compliance, in Secretary Rubio's words today cast doubt on. As for the President, he's given mixed signals on how he would approach the court, saying at times he'd obey a Supreme Court order to bring a Abrego Garcia back, and then saying last night that he would not even pick up the phone to try. He's also doubling down on Abrego Garcia being a member of MS-13, even though nothing has been proven in court.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Wait a minute, he had MS-13 on his knuckles tattooed.
MORAN: He had some tattoos that are interpreted that way, but let's move on.
TRUMP: Wait a minute. Hey, Terry, Terry, Terry.
MORAN: He did not have the letter MS-13.
TRUMP: It says MS13.
MORAN: That was Photoshop. So let me just --
TRUMP: That was Photoshop -- Terry? He had that. Hey, they're giving you the big break of a lifetime. You know, you're doing the interview. I picked you because, frankly, I never heard of you, but that's okay. I picked you, Terry. But you're not being very nice.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Well, nice or not, Abrego Garcia does have symbols tattooed on his knuckles. However, as CNN and others have reported, the photo was altered and the MS-13 added, apparently to connect the symbols to the gang. The President, though, seems to believe that Abrego Garcia literally spelled it out on his skin. And with all that, there's new reporting tonight that the administration may want to enlist two more countries as places to send migrants, according to multiple sources, they're Libya and Rwanda.
As always, a lot of new developments on this and chief White House correspondent Kaitlan Collins starts us off. So is the administration -- it doesn't sound like they are trying to get this guy back, even though the President acknowledged he could with the picking up the phone?
[20:05:15]
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR AND CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, it's raised a lot of questions, Anderson, especially since that Oval Office meeting, not that long ago where I was in there. I asked President Trump directly about this and President Bukele about whether or not they're going to actually facilitate the return of Kilmar Abrego Garcia, given that Supreme Court nine and oh ruling. And we've seen how the President's answers have shifted since then.
He had a very defiant tone, when I was in there with him, he essentially asked, why are you still asking about this person? As we had follow ups about what was going to ultimately happen to him, and now we're learning behind-the-scenes that there's been a bit of a diplomatic effort here. It seems to be from Secretary of State Rubio reaching out to President Bukele, inquiring about returning him potentially.
Our sources say that President Bukele essentially said what he said in the Oval Office that day, that this is not going to happen. Trump himself keeps referring to the lawyers, which I think is notable. He had not been saying that previously. Now, Anderson, he keeps when he's asked about this often defers to what the attorneys have to say here.
Pam Bondi was in the room that day as well. She is, of course, the top attorney, as the Attorney General of the United States.
And so, it's been a very interesting back and forth here as we've seen this play out. And then you saw Secretary Rubio today saying, you know, not only was he going to confirm this to reporters, he said he was not going to reveal it to a judge, even though a judge has been demanding to know concrete steps that the U.S. is taking to at least try to get Kilmar Abrego Garcia back to the United States.
And so, a lot of questions, Anderson, about what this means next, if they're just trying to turn the temperature down or actually facilitate his return.
COOPER: Yes, Kaitlan, thanks. We'll see you at the top of the hour. Your guest is Senator Bernie Sanders.
I'm joined right now by New York Democratic Congressman Dan Goldman. He sits on the Judiciary and Homeland Security Committee. Congressman Goldman, you heard Secretary Rubio say that a federal judge essentially has no authority over the Garcia deportation. At what point do checks and balances simply break down.
REP. DAN GOLDMAN (D-NY): When the administration starts defying nine- oh Supreme Court orders, that's exactly when it starts breaking down. Unfortunately, my Republican colleagues here in Congress do not view themselves as the equal branch of government that should be a check and balance, and so, we're left with the courts. But if the Trump administration is going to disregard what the courts say based on their own interpretation of the law, that is unconstitutional, that runs completely opposite to how our entire rule of law and our system of checks and balances works, and so, that is when things break down.
And the notion not only that, Secretary Rubio, who certainly would not have ever said something like that three months ago, would assert that and that Donald Trump is saying that he can get him back if he wants to just goes to show how much this administration has dug in on denying someone's due process rights and that's what this is about. He will come back here and he will go through the court process to determine whether or not he's an MS-13 member, or whether or not he can or cannot be removed to El Salvador, but that's what the courts do. That is not what the President or the Secretary of State do. That is what kings and dictators do in other countries, but that's not how this country works.
COOPER: I mean, it is, you know, the President was being accurate when he said he could pick up the phone and call the President of El Salvador and say, bring this guy back. The U.S. is paying El Salvador to keep these people in prison. Do you think -- and that goes counter to what government attorneys have been arguing in the court and what Pam Bondi has been saying.
GOLDMAN: Yes, unfortunately, that's not a surprise. But obviously, Anderson, we are paying the El Salvadorans. We, the American taxpayers are paying El Salvador to keep Kilmar Abrego Garcia in the country.
And I recall Senator Van Hollen said when he went there and spoke to top officials at El Salvador and asked why wouldn't they return him? They simply said, because we're getting paid to keep him.
So, it's a very simple step for Donald Trump to say, okay, we're going to stop paying El Salvador for housing Kilmar Abrego Garcia in a prison so that he can come back to the United States, get his due process, just like a nine-oh Supreme Court order mandated.
This is becoming, Anderson, a very, very significant clash that Donald Trump clearly wants to challenge the Supreme Court, challenge our courts to actually force him to comply. And we're going down a very dangerous road here. And I think it's high time that Republicans here in the House, where I am right now, stand up for our constitution, for our rule of law, for due process. Otherwise, we are going to go down a really dark road.
[20:10:18]
COOPER: What's your reaction to the new CNN reporting that the White House has approached Libya and Rwanda about potentially deporting migrants with criminal records to those countries?
GOLDMAN: It's -- look, it's just more of the same. It's a demonization of immigrants. There's a process, nobody thinks that convicted criminals who do not have documentation are not citizens, should remain in this country, but there's a process that our laws have mandated that the administration has to follow. If they would like to change the laws, they're welcome to come to us here in Congress and try to change those laws. But they don't get to unilaterally change the law because they don't like how it is and that's what they've been doing with government funding and the Impoundment Control Act.
That's now what they're doing with immigration. That is what they're doing on so many different issues. That is just directly flouting the law and undermining our baseline Democratic system.
COOPER: Yes, Congressman Goldman, I appreciate your time. Thank you so much.
GOLDMAN: Thank you.
COOPER: Perspective now from former federal prosecutor Elie Honig, who is our senior legal analyst and CNN correspondent, Priscilla Alvarez.
Do the President's comments on ABC complicate things for the administration?
ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Absolutely, because the position that the administration has taken in court is squarely contradicted by what the President said.
In court, the position so far, the administration has been we can't get him. They're not willing to give him up to us. And so, when it comes time for us to facilitate, as the U.S. Supreme Court has said, all we can do is sort of be in this passive posture of making sure there's no obstacles.
But then the President says, of course, I could pick up that phone and get him back. And so, I expect the judge to press the DOJ attorneys on that. Well, the President says you can get him back. We told you to facilitate. So, put two and two together and do what we and the Supreme Court have told you to do.
COOPER: Priscilla, what more, if anything, do we know about these talks between the secretary of state, Marco Rubio, and the Salvadoran president?
PRISCILLA ALVAREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, what sources have told me is that these conversations are happening at the top. That includes, of course, Secretary Rubio and El Salvadoran President Nayib Bukele.
Now, as you heard from Kaitlan earlier, it has been clear publicly by Bukele that he has no intention of bringing Abrego Garcia back to the United States, and that is similarly being conveyed in private conversations.
Now, what is unclear is what type of diplomatic resolutions were being discussed a week ago when the federal judge in Maryland allowed, or rather agreed to, the administration and their request to pause the discovery. That was something that was agreed upon between the Justice Department and Abrego Garcia's attorney. I spoke with his attorney today, and he told me, look, the judge said that this was happening in good faith, and they had trust in the judge. Now, the question is, what are they going to learn from here on out? And what his attorney told me is they expect to learn more in discovery as to who exactly is telling the President not to make the phone call to Bukele. That is what they hope to learn over the course of the next week or so, when the President says, look, my lawyers are the ones telling me what to do here, and he's deferring to them.
Well, they're hoping that in court documents they can start to get some answers as to who those people are in the administration that are getting in the way of that potential phone call.
COOPER: And, Priscilla, what else do we know about this idea of deporting migrants to Rwanda and Libya?
ALVAREZ: This has been something that has been gaining momentum within the administration. The idea of sending migrants really anywhere else just outside of the United States. We, of course, have seen that when they sent Venezuelan migrants to El Salvador. Well, now I'm being told by my sources that they are also considering Libya and Rwanda.
The difference is they wouldn't be sent to prisons there. But these are migrants who may not be from there, actually likely aren't from there who would be sent there. Now, the conversations are centered on migrants with criminal records. We have learned through our sources that conversations happened this week with Libyan officials. Rwanda, similarly, they've been having conversations in recent days and weeks.
With Rwanda, this is a situation that would be an ad hoc basis. The costs are still being finessed. It would likely be more expensive because they would be absorbed into society.
With Libya, however, my sources tell me it's a step further. They want to go into formal negotiations for what's known as a safe third country agreement. That means asylum seekers who apprehended at the U.S. Southern border could be sent to Libya. This is something that the administration entertained the first time around in the Western Hemisphere, with countries that were closer to the United States, but now they are widening the aperture.
Now, all of this, of course, Anderson, would likely face legal challenges, the idea being that there would be these third country migrants sent to countries that aren't their own, but would help the administration more swiftly deport them.
COOPER: Elie, what is the legality of living in Rwanda?
HONIG: So, people may not realize this, but when a person gets deported from the United States, we do not have to when we often do not return them to their country of origin. I don't think we can ignore there's a performative and a deterrent element to Libya and Rwanda.
Why would we take the time and expense and difficulty of sending people thousands upon thousands of miles away to two countries not exactly known for their human rights record? So, it seems to me that the effort here is to send a message way beyond anything that goes to anything practical.
[20:15:36]
COOPER: All right, Elie Honig, thanks very much, Priscilla Alvarez as well.
Next, the President has devoted Cabinet, very, very devoted. Every Cabinet member, now, they seem to go out of their way to praise the President to his face. Is this normal? Former White House chief of staff Rahm Emanuel joins us for that.
And later, CNN's Donie O'Sullivan introducing us to some of the newest members of the White House press corps, some of whom are like the Cabinet, very, very big fans of the President.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:20:21]
COOPER: We played you some of the President's Cabinet meeting at the top of the broadcast tonight. What we didn't show you was the fawning praise that just about every Cabinet secretary makes sure to give President Trump. Here's a small sampling.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
J.D. VANCE (R), VICE-PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: He's actually doing the things that he promised that he would do and, Mr. President, it's been an honor to be part of it for the past 100 days.
MICHAEL WALTZ, WHITE HOUSE NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: Mr. President, the last four years, the world experienced a total lack of -- zero leadership under Biden and then we've had hundred days of your leadership with respect, with strength.
BONDI: President, your first 100 days has far exceeded that of any other presidency in this country, ever, ever, never seen anything like it. Thank you.
DOUG BURGUM, U.S. SECRETARY OF THE INTERIOR: President Trump, in your first term, when I had a chance to work with you as governor, you were courageous. The thing that's empowering, this amazing group of people around this table, and you've probably assembled the greatest Cabinet ever, is that this time you're not just courageous. You're actually fearless.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: And went on from there. I'm not going to show you the whole thing, but I do want to point out that this is not the first time we have seen and heard this from Mr. Trump's Cabinet. It happened the last time they met in front of cameras as well.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) BROOKE ROLLINS, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE SECRETARY: And the honor and respect we have for each other is a reflection of you and your leadership.
BONDI: You are overwhelmingly elected by the biggest majority.
LEE ZELDIN, U.S. ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY ADMINISTRATOR: At the Trump EPA, we're going to make it proud.
KRISTI NOEM, U.S. HOMELAND SECURITY SECRETARY: President, thank you, for your leadership at the border.
WALTZ: We are going to revitalize and make shipbuilding and maritime great again, all just this week under your leadership, Mr. President.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: So it's worth pointing out that this is not the norm in prior administrations, Republican and Democratic alike. The backdrop today was the new numbers from the Commerce Department showing the economy shrank in the first quarter of the year, down three-tenths of a percent. That's compared to the last quarter of 2024, which saw it grow by 2.4 percent. The President was quick to point fingers.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: That's Biden, that's not Trump because we came in on January, this is a quarterly numbers, and we came in and I was very against everything that Biden was doing in terms of the economy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Keeping them honest, he took office on January 20th. So the first 20 days of the quarter were not on his watch. However, the other two months and 11 days were, something he didn't mention, and beyond that, he laid the groundwork for blaming President Biden for the next three months as well.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: We came in on January 20th, so this is Biden, and you could even say the next quarter is sort of Biden, because it doesn't just happen on a daily or an hourly basis, but we're turning it around.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: So if you're keeping track, the President is now blaming the former President for this current bad quarter and perhaps the next bad quarter as well, even though by that time the former President will have been out of office for almost six months, and even then, by his reckoning, it will still be the Biden economy.
Yet, this is the same man who began taking credit for what was then a booming stock market nearly a year before taking office. Quoting now from something he posted on social media on the 29th of January of 2024, "This is the Trump stock market because my polls against Biden are so good that investors are projecting that I will win and that will drive the market up."
Bottom line, it was the Trump stock market when Biden was President. It's the Biden economy now that Trump is, and a Cabinet full of praise for it all.
Perspective now from CNN senior political and global affairs commentator, Rahm Emanuel. He served as White House chief of staff in the Obama administration. He is a former Chicago mayor and Ambassador to Japan.
I mean, Ambassador, as somebody who has served at virtually all levels of government, what stands out to you about this Cabinet Trump era tradition of everybody going around praising the President is -- I mean, that's not normal, is it?
RAHM EMANUEL, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL AND GLOBAL AFFAIRS COMMENTATOR: I think the answer is in the question. Let me say this. If -- I was chief-of-staff to President Obama, senior adviser to President Clinton, if I had acted like a sycophant like any one of those cabinet members, they would have rushed me to the White House medical unit. To their great credit, they were confident in themselves. They wanted you to challenge them. They wanted you to press questions.
And I did that frequently, I jokingly say, sometimes, I started working for President Obama. I was six-three, 250 pounds. I'm now five-eight and 148 dripping wet. They wanted you to challenge. They were confident enough. But on a more serious note than that, we are on the hundred-day mark.
Roosevelt did it by governing passing laws, signing them into law. You've got to look at this meeting, the Cabinet meeting, and the way it was conducted in the context of the executive orders. No legislation. This is a style in which the President Trump does not want to govern like President Roosevelt. He wants to rule totally different type of context, totally different flavor, totally different style with a different substance. There is no governing here, in a sense of legislation.
The bulk of the executive orders are on immigration. There's not an immigration bill that he's presented to Congress, so it doesn't exist in the sense of the norm. And I think it actually has in the political context, two things. Core supporters like it because it reflects action. Stylistically, it is pushing away Independents, energizing Democrats, and even leaving a bad taste with a good proportion of Republicans.
So, I don't actually think its benefiting him, this kind of notion of ruling versus governing, which is much more in the traditional norm, and that's why people are having such an adverse reaction to it and pushing back on it.
[20:25:55]
COOPER: It's interesting to me, though, that for a President who likes to project strength, his susceptibility to praise, I mean, it's very apparent to anybody who interacts with him. You know, back in February, the new British Prime Minister, Keir Starmer, came to meet President Trump at the White House and he clearly knew to use flattery.
He opened up the meeting, presenting before they got down to actual diplomatic business, an invitation from King Charles for a second state visit and he sold it. I mean, I want to play for our viewers how he sold it to the President because he used a lot of -- well, take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KEIR STARMER, BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: This is really special. This has never happened before. This is unprecedented. And I think that just symbolizes the strength of the relationship between us. So, this is a very special letter. I think the last state visit was a tremendous success.
TRUMP: It was.
STARMER: His Majesty, The King wants to make this even better than that. So this is -- this is truly historic.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: I mean, it's -- I was going to say embarrassing, almost, but, I mean, it's wise for people to do that.
EMANUEL: Embarrassing. It's embarrassing.
COOPER: But it's a weakness. I mean, if, if you're so susceptible to be flattering to your face, if that's what it takes to kind of wash over you, and then someone gets down to business, it seems remarkable to me.
EMANUEL: Anderson, I can say this as having been ambassador worked also in other countries and talk to other leaders. Every Foreign Ministry overseas is taking a daily, if not a long-term analysis of the President and what works, what doesn't work, et cetera.
What comes across use talk about the flattery, but what comes across also in this psychoanalysis they all do, is the weakness, the vulnerability, then also the lack of honesty, blaming somebody else, not taking responsibility. That also is figuring into their analysis. That will tell you how other world leaders will stay away if they're going to approach how they're going to approach it.
So yes, the flattery, but also in that psychological profile they're building of a person, the lack of veracity, no truth, the need and desire for constant glorification. You have to praise him or thank him. You saw that early. I don't know if you remember this early in the administration that if you wanted to come to see the President, you had to praise him publicly. You had to thank him publicly. The attack on President Zelenskyy was you've never said thank you enough.
COOPER: Right. EMANUEL: So you have to -- they are building a psychological profile. They know him, and I will guarantee you and then put in also one additional layer. They all watched the elections in Canada. They're going to watch the elections in Australia. There's like a five to seven point bump just opposing President Trump in your own domestic politics.
So, those profiles get built in foreign ministries in how to approach or not approach the United States and specifically this administration.
COOPER: Well, the degree to which he has unified countries around the world internally, I mean, Canada you know, elsewhere and yet so not unified his own country.
EMANUEL: If you think -- I don't mean to cut you off, but. I apologize for that, but if you think of this era as the era of the Indo-Pacific, Asia on the rise. Four years ago, China was moving -- our economy we were seen as slipping. We were seen as moving -- and the fact that America was declining.
We used China's wolf warrior. We used China's economic hardship that they created on themselves to isolate them both economically, politically, diplomatically and in the region. That's why they were so angry at the trilateral relationship between the United States, China and South Korea. They never saw that coming.
The one also between The Philippines, the quad relationship between India, Australia, Japan, and the United States. They were politically isolated. They were economically creating their own end goal and isolated themselves. They were trying to export their markets, creating domestic problems in other countries, which made China the problem.
With the President's tariffs, with our own actual version of wolf warrior, we have made ourselves the problem and got China out of the problem box that they put themselves in, and now were the isolated party. And trust me, confronting China in the Indo-Pacific, it is better to have India, Australia, Japan, South Korea, the Philippines and other nations aligned with us. We're stronger because we have a solid block.
In that case, China is now going around the region and using our own kind of offensive economic and political actions not to stand with the United States, but to isolate us. We've become the isolated party where China was the isolated party. And that's the crisis there. That's the missed opportunity, which will have huge impact on national security, economic security for the United States.
COOPER: Ambassador Rahm Emanuel, thanks very much. Appreciate it.
EMANUEL: Thank you.
COOPER: Next, live report from Syracuse, New York, where nearly a dozen high school lacrosse players turn themselves in and the district attorney says their alleged action against younger players on their own team goes, "Way beyond hazing." And later we have breaking news on the war in Ukraine, an agreement with Kyiv that could be a first step toward ending it. More on that ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:35:37]
COOPER: Tonight, a disturbing story out of Syracuse, New York. 11 high school lacrosse players there have surrendered to police. Now, prosecutors say their actions against five younger players goes "way beyond hazing." CNN's Shimon Prokupecz has more now. So, what are the players accused of doing exactly?
SHIMON PROKUPECZ, CNN SENIOR CRIME AND JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, Anderson. So, this community right now is just reeling over this. This happened last Thursday. We're just learning of this tonight. And for this community, they've been dealing with this for several days now as rumors started to spread over what happened here, and it's just devastating. The facts here are that last Thursday, a group of the members of the Westhill Lacrosse Team here in Syracuse went to another game. They went to watch a game at another high school.
And with them, they brought some of the freshman members of the lacrosse team, some of the more senior older players going with the younger players to watch this game. And there was already a plan underway at that time. And as they were leaving the game, they told the younger players, Hey, we're going to take you to McDonald's. Come with us.
And this was a ruse already they had developed, these older players, and as they were driving to this McDonald's, the person that was driving, they said, oh, we're lost. And then a group, just a group of team members came from the woods, acted as if they were about to do some kind of a kidnapping. Some of the younger players that were in the car managed to get away, but one of the players got caught up.
And then what the district attorney here tells us is just horrific that they tied this student up, that they put something over his head and put him in the trunk of a car. And then at some point, they drove, but the student was able to get home. And all of this, according to the district attorney, was captured on videotape, cell phone, videotape. And that even has spread through this community. And that is how some of the authorities here found out about what has happened.
COOPER: And what are they being charged with?
PROKUPECZ: So, the DA was very serious. He had a press conference here and he said that if the students, if the alleged perpetrators did not surrender, that he was going to charge them with kidnapping. But today, 11 of them did surrender. And as a result of that, the DA right now is charging them with unlawful imprisonment. Many of them are younger, so they're going to be charged as juveniles. So there are 11 who have been charged. They all surrendered to the district attorney today, and they were given what's called appearance tickets for them to appear in court to face the charges at a later date.
COOPER: And any comment from school officials or families or players involved?
PROKUPECZ: Well, Anderson, I spoke to a couple of people in this community tonight, as I said earlier, and I just don't think people understand what's going on here quite yet. This is tearing this community apart. There really -- there are some who just feel so bad because the entire season of this lacrosse team has been canceled. The school, I'm told, had a meeting yesterday with the community, with team members, with other family members, and told them that they had no choice but to cancel the rest of the season.
There was concern that the teams would not want to play against Westhill, so that was one of the reasons why they canceled the rest of the season. The other thing, the superintendent released a statement saying that the culture of the program needs to be reset. They need to start thinking about things. But some of the members of this community feel that that may be too far, that there is no problem with this culture at this school, with this team. So we'll see.
Look, the 11 students will have their day in court, but certainly this kind of attention and this kind of scrutiny on this community, because they feel that this sports program at this high school has -- basically has a very good reputation. And now, that has been ruined. And it's also, Anderson, causing a lot of division because there are people here who feel that suspending this entire season hurts people who weren't even involved in this. And now, everyone as a community and everyone here, Anderson, is having to suffer through this.
COOPER: Yeah. Shimon Prokupecz, thanks. Back with us is, Elie Honig. I mean, is this, I mean, hazing obviously, but the authorities say went well beyond that.
[20:40:00]
ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Yeah, it's hazing. But of course, there's no hazing excuse or defense in the law. The key dividing lines here are going to be, first of all, whether these students were 18 or over or under 18 is going to make a huge difference. And my understanding is the majority, but not all the majority, were under 18. Because if you get prosecuted as a juvenile, youthful offender, the punishments are way, way lighter, and it's much less likely that that case will follow you through the rest of your life. But for these students who are over 18, and again, the reporting is at least one is, the potential crimes and sentences are much more serious.
COOPER: What about liability for criminal or civil for the school itself?
HONIG: Yeah. Well, there could be both. I mean, the school certainly could be sued by the families of the victims if they can show that there was damage sustained, clearly there was, and if they can show that somehow there was a failure to supervise these students by the school. I also think it's interesting, Shimon talked about this sort of self-surrender program that the DA offered.
COOPER: I hadn't heard that before. HONIG: Yeah. That's something the prosecutors do sometimes if you think you have a large group of defendants, if you believe that they will in fact turn themselves in and not flee or not commit other crimes. And if you want to give people a chance to sort of come clean and get some degree of leniency. My understanding is the DA has said that he will give people much lighter deals if they do come forward, as opposed to if they fight it.
COOPER: Yeah. Elie Honig, thanks very much. Appreciate it.
HONIG: Thanks.
COOPER: Coming up next, our Donie O'Sullivan meets some newest -- some of the newest members of the White House Press Corps. What sets them apart from the old guard, take a look at that. And later, breaking news on a deal that could be a first step toward rebuilding Ukraine, when and if Russia ends its war.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:46:22]
COOPER: And we've been pointing out tonight in several examples, whether it's the fawning cabinet or other world leaders who know to compliment the president before getting down to the business of diplomacy. President Trump has always been particularly pleased by praise. So, it's no surprise that his White House is welcoming new and sometimes friendlier members to the White House Press Corps. Our Senior Correspondent, Donie O'Sullivan recently met with some of them to get their take on the new access.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DONIE O'SULLIVAN, CNN SENIOR CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This is my first time in here.
NATALIE WINTERS, STEVE BANNON'S WAR ROOM: Well, you're only probably with the most controversial White House Correspondents.
CARA CASTRONUOVA, WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, LINDELLTV: I'm actually really good at yelling because I used to be a ring announcer.
WINTERS: We're all biased, right? We just wear our bias, which I think is a pejorative term to begin with, on our sleeves.
BRIAN GLENN, REAL AMERICA'S VOICE: I mean, there's no doubt about it. I'm pro-Trump. The questions I ask, in my opinion, are going to help highlight the good things that he's doing for America.
O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): These are White House correspondents like you've never seen before. They're part of the Trump administration's push to bring so-called new media into the White House.
KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: We have an individual in our new media seat today.
O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): Cara Castronuova is White House Correspondent for LindellTV.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Go to mypillow.com. We have two things (ph) at LindellTV.
O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): Yes. That LindellTV.
LEAVITT: Boys will be boys and --
O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): The new media outlets have full access to the White House Briefing Room where they ask questions like this.
CASTRONUOVA: Will you guys also consider releasing the president's fitness plan? He actually looks healthier than ever before. Is he working out with Bobby Kennedy? And is he eating less McDonald's?
LEAVITT: I can't confirm. The president is in very good shape.
GLENN: Why don't you wear a suit?
(LAUGH)
GLENN: Why don't you wear a suit? You're at the highest level in this country's office.
O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): And the characterization, what you were doing asking Zelenskyy that question that you were trolling?
GLENN: I'm not a troll. I never have been. That was a legitimate question that I just wanted to ask. It didn't mean to get everyone fired up like they did.
O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): Right now, the Briefing Room, the seats are big networks upfront. You're hoping that that will be rearranged. That outlets like yourself might have a more prominent seat here?
WINTERS: Definitely. If it were up to me, I'd kick a lot of these outlets out. I view my role here more as sort of reporting on not so much the White House, but really the media.
O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): Natalie Winters is White House Correspondent for Steve Bannon's Show "War Room."
WINTERS: Our bias is not to be sycophants for President Trump; our bias is for our audience which is the working class of America, the people who want to put this country first.
O'SULLIVAN: If Trump messes up, will you guys call it out?
WINTERS: Yeah. And we have, I think time and time again, particularly on the immigration. We are not for stapling green cards to diplomats.
O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): We met the new media correspondents on the day Trump announced tariffs that could upend the world economic order. As other news outlets reported on the tanking stock market, on Bannon TV, they celebrated. WINTERS: This is the first day where a sitting president put America's working class first and it's a glorious day to be standing here at the White House and to be able to say that and bring that to you.
O'SULLIVAN: Have the "traditional reporters" that are here been hostile to you at all? Have they been talking to you (ph)?
WINTERS: Well, I think they know better than to come after Natalie Winters and the War Room posse. But it's the looks, the eye rolls, the conversations that I overhear.
O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): They're adjusting to life as part of the White House Press Corps. These big tents here is where you have CNN, ABC --
CASTRONUOVA: Right.
O'SULLIVAN: -- the networks, and you guys are kind of off the side here.
(CROSSTALK)
CASTRONUOVA: So we're kind of off to the side, which is what a lot of alternate media is doing right now.
O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): From the protocols --
CASTRONUOVA: There were times at the beginning, when we're standing kind of here, not realizing we're in people's shots.
O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): -- to the snack selection.
CASTRONUOVA: The vending machine is full of junk food and I'm a big MAHA person. I almost ate a beef Slim Gym yesterday. I was desperate.
[20:50:00]
O'SULLIVAN: Do you consider yourself a journalist?
WINTERS: Yes.
O'SULLIVAN: Tell me.
WINTERS: Seems like you took a little --
(LAUGH)
WINTERS: -- pause to process that.
O'SULLIVAN: No, but -- I mean --
GLENN: But I think we all should have a seat at the table. I really do. And if you -- the very first week she did the new media, it was Axios. And Axios, by no stretch of imagination, is a conservative --
O'SULLIVAN: Sure.
GLENN: -- new media.
O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): But while not all new media here are MAGA media, a lot of them are more cheerleading President Trump than challenging him.
O'SULLIVAN: You are a Trump fan, right?
CASTRONUOVA: Yes, I'm definitely a supporter of President Trump.
O'SULLIVAN: So, will you be able to hold them to account then?
CASTRONUOVA: I would -- I will be able to hold a hundred percent, him to account.
O'SULLIVAN: Is there anything so far in this administration you've disagreed with?
CASTRONUOVA: I'm not going to -- let me put some thought into that for a second. I'm just overwhelmed, like just overwhelmed with how well I perceive things to be going.
O'SULLIVAN: But to the people, and I'm sure you see this online every single day, who say you don't deserve to be here because you're not a real journalist. What's your response to them?
CASTRONUOVA: Well, I'm pretty sure the group of people in there spent what was it, four years covering for someone who was essentially dead, and that's being charitable in my description of him, a president by the name of Joe Biden. So to all those people who are apoplectic over having new media voices, you guys failed and that's why we're here.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: And Donie joins me now. What else stood out to you when talking to those folks?
O'SULLIVAN (on camera): Well, look, I mean, they're not practicing a lot of journalism, and they're -- and you heard that last point about the coverage of Biden and his mental acuity. But look, for all of the flaws and there are many flaws of it with journalism outlets and people reporting, mainstream outlets, journalists in there working every day are working very, very, very hard, no matter what administration is in power, trying to hold them to account. Really what you see in that piece there is just some folks cheerleading Trump on and part of the MAGA media, but now it is part of the (inaudible).
(CROSSTALK)
COOPER: I don't suppose that guy asked Elon Musk about his wardrobe?
O'SULLIVAN (on camera): Absolutely not. No.
COOPER: He attacked Zelenskyy for --
O'SULLIVAN (on camera): No, absolutely not. Yeah.
COOPER: You have a new podcast out called "Persuadable" and it's really a fascinating idea. Can you just talk about it a little bit?
O'SULLIVAN (on camera): Yeah. So, as for years, I've been speaking to a lot of people who have a lot of crazy beliefs. And look, we might want to think, it might be comforting for us to think that just people who are in the QAnon rabbit hole and things like that are just --
COOPER: You're talking about conspiracy theories.
O'SULLIVAN (on camera): Yes.
COOPER: You're not talking about the piece you just --
O'SULLIVAN (on camera): No, sorry. Yes.
COOPER: These are conspiracy theorists, people in QAnon and --
O'SULLIVAN (on camera): QAnon, rabbit holes, everything else. And --
COOPER: Who believe in lizard people that you know --
O'SULLIVAN (on camera): Yes. Yeah. Every -- every -- all of that. And look, it's easy I think for us to dismiss and just say, that's all crazy and those people are crazy. But after hearing (ph) woman on these stories, we do, we hear from families all around the country, all around the world actually, who say I have a loved one who is going down that sort of rabbit hole. So we tried to -- we have three episodes in this podcast called "Persuadable," where we try to get people to a place of empathy where they can at least understand why people (inaudible).
(CROSSTALK)
COOPER: I'm fascinated by this. I mean, you and I have talked about this. I've interviewed people who believe I'm a lizard person.
O'SULLIVAN (on camera): Yes.
COOPER: And want me executed. And you know, it's fascinating to talk to people like, how did you get to this place?
O'SULLIVAN (on camera): Yeah. And I want to play just one quick clip from you -- from a psychologist -- psychiatrist that we spoke to as part of this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
O'SULLIVAN: So first, would you mind telling me why doesn't the approach of trying to confront a person's beliefs or to try encourage them to think even more critically or to teach them how to think critically? Why doesn't that work? Because that does sort of seem to be the -- I think the most -- it's probably the approach people feel like is the most common sense. DR. SAMUEL VEISSIERE, ASSISTANT PROFESSOR OF PSYCHIATRY, MCGILL UNIVERSITY: Yeah. I think first, in terms of behavioral science and how people come to develop a particular understanding of the world, human beings are not really convinced by facts.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O'SULLIVAN (on camera): And yeah, human beings are not convinced by facts, as he said, they're convinced by feelings. And look, what we're trying to do here, and oftentimes as I've done these stories over the years, editors will annoyingly ask me, well, how can we make this all better? What's the solution? I don't have one.
But trying to put people in the shoes of people who seek out these conspiracy theories, in my case, I speak on the podcast a bit about my own mental health issues and irrational thoughts and beliefs I can have in those moments. And a lot of people who are going down these rabbit holes are seeking something, are seeking some sort of sense of meaning or purpose --
COOPER: Yeah.
O'SULLIVAN (on camera): -- or community.
COOPER: Well, I mean, that's what is fascinating with the podcast, is to hear how this impacts you. I mean, you've spent so much time with a lot of these people going very down some dark rabbit holes. Donie O'Sullivan, appreciate it. Thanks very much.
Here's the QR Code, so you can listen to Donie's Persuadable. Part of "The Account" podcast, you can get it through that link. And it's also available wherever you get your podcast.
[20:55:00]
Coming up next, breaking news, President Zelenskyy and the U.S. signed a deal that could be critical to the future of Ukraine. More on that ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: Some breaking news tonight, which could -- and I should underscore could -- open the door to stopping the fighting in Ukraine, at least when it comes to facilitating the administration's help in getting to that point. Less than a week after the president and his Ukrainian counterpart of Volodymyr Zelenskyy briefly met at the Vatican, the U.S. and Ukraine have signed what's being called an Economic Partnership Agreement. It'll give Washington access to Kyiv's rare earth minerals in exchange for establishing an Investment Fund in Ukraine.
The news continues --
